How to Win an Argument | Outside Eden

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00:09

Welcome to Outside Eden, two sinners discovering grace together. Good morning, Judith. Good morning.

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Your hosts are John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, along with my wife,

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Judith, of 20 years. She's not 20 years old, but we've been together 20 years, but she looks like she's 20. We have four kids.

00:26

I just realized my grammar was a lot there. Four kids from seven to 18, and I'm sure this is probably not episode one, but if it is, welcome.

00:34

We're glad to have you here. We're kind of building off of things that we've said before, specifically last week. We talked about conflict resolution, and the greatest thing about doing these podcast shoots is that after we do them,

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I just feel like a lot of whatever we talk about just goes away. We just don't struggle with it.

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No conflicts. If only. No parenting issues. No marital issues. I was telling somebody in our church recently,

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I'm like, I think the hardest thing about the podcast is that we get ready to do them, and it's like, hey, let's record at eight, and then somehow at seven, there's a rift between the two of us.

01:04

That's God just really loving on us, isn't it? Yeah. Today's pretty, I think, important subject as couples.

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I think you and I have done counseling now for 10 years at least together, and this is one that we deal with a lot, and when you think about it, we don't write, type, or use.

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I mean, the most way in which we interact with human beings is talking, and we don't really think about how powerful our words are.

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I mean, just think about James, how many times James talks about our tongue. It's a flame. It can destroy a forest.

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What's interesting is that in most relationships that we deal with, it's not physical abuse or emotional abuse, but it's verbal, like what we have said to each other, and it's hard to get that out of our hearts and our mind after we've heard it, and then we'll bring it up.

01:56

Well, you said, well, I said that like 10 years ago. Right. It's stuck because words are powerful.

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Yeah. So, one of the things that I want to, I want to turn this positive. We have a goal in our home to reflect

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Christ and make this a place where the kingdom becomes what the driving point and what we're trying to communicate as far as the love and the nature of Jesus.

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When Jesus says that it's consider other people more significant than yourself, that's Paul in Philippians, and then

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Christ calling us to lay our lives down, and at times that can seem like a fantasy.

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How do you do that? And we think of that in like, oh, I'm in the jungles of Africa, and I'm only wearing one pair of clothes, and I only eat rice and beans, and I'm laying my life down.

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That's how we typically see it, and that sounds fun and radical. In some ways, that's easier.

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Yes, it is. It would be easier than to govern your heart through your mouth, right, out of the heart the mouth speaks.

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Especially with the people who you feel the most comfortable with, and you don't have, you know, you just feel really comfortable, and you don't use a filter a lot because you're home, and you've known them for a really, really, really long time, so it's even harder.

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Yeah, familiarity, it's so bad. We can be the harshest with the people that we're supposed to be the closest to, like family.

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Well, and communication, too, is a learned thing, so then it's also, which we've talked about this in the past with other things, it also is based on how you were raised, how communication worked in your home, with your parents, siblings, so that's all playing into it.

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Yeah, for sure. I mean, we can jump into that, just the way in which your home functioned and the way my home functioned, which neither one of them were right or wrong.

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A lot of it was preference and wisdom. Personality. Oh, yeah, like my dad's personality was complete opposite of your dad's, but I would say our moms are the same.

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Yeah, our moms are very similar. We love you, moms. Oh, you guys are the best. But, yeah,

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I would say that my home would probably have been a little bit more loud and rambunctious, and we would, we were okay with like goofing off and just jabbing each other and that was a little bit less in your home.

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Yeah, yeah, my dad is a, was a counselor, still is a counselor, and so he always had such a really gentle way of speaking and putting things in just a very sensitive and kind way and thoughtful way, and so that's what

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I was used to. Not that your family was different as far as, like you said, there's no right or wrong, but your family is just more to the point and, you know, more freedom in what you say.

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So it was just very different to get used to. Well, I would say our family was, we weren't necessarily afraid of public light.

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Like, we didn't care about bringing our personal life into the public realm and your family from, and even just your own personality is the opposite of that, right?

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Which has caused a lot of problems. Like when I was communicating in public, even to this day, when

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I preach, I have to be careful to be too, you know, open about our private life.

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Like there is a sense where our private life should be safe, but I didn't learn, I was very selfish and I'm like, listen, you know, this is how it is and if you don't like it, you're wrong, instead of looking at it from your perspective.

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So that's really what this is about. Sometimes it's hard when you hear commands in scripture, not hard, but sometimes

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I would say it this way, it's helpful when we can hear commands in scripture and say, but how does that work, right?

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Like, what does that look like? So Judith and I have had the opportunity to read a lot of marriage books, talk with a lot of couples, and then to be most frank, it's our own experience of failure.

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And then our experience of feeling loved that has helped us like, okay, this is, these are ways that it's been helpful.

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So we've set up guardrails, we've set up in rules. And so these are just some helpful ways in which that work for us would say, take them, mold them, shape them, adjust them, throw them out, add things to it, whatever you want to do.

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What we're trying to get to a point is the goal. So the goal is God has given us the capacity to use words.

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We can use them to hurt or comfort, right? We can use them for hatred or love. So our goal is comfort and love, trust and security.

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That's what we want. This is why both Peter and Paul have warned us that our words, like only speak words that build up, speak words that are firm, that are encouraging, that are strengthening, right?

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So what ends up happening, those, as you said already, when we get familiar in the home, we just throw those commands out the window.

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Right, right. Yeah. And I think, like you said, keeping in mind, just like we talked about in parenting, keeping in mind what our goal is in our home, because what starts in your home is going to leak out everywhere else.

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That's why we're focusing on the home. Our goal in our home is to make each other feel loved and safe and push each other toward Christ.

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And so if that's also governing the way we communicate, that's going to change a lot of things. So like we lay our lives down for each other in other ways, laying your life down in how you communicate is going to make a huge change.

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Right. So one of the things, just from a human standpoint, when you love somebody and you want what's best for them, you can't do that ignorantly.

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You have to have information. Purposeful. Yeah. You got to be purposeful about it. That's right. If some, if you, if you, for instance, if you make the promise to watch another person's child, you want to know of information, like what's their age?

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What's, are they allergic to anything? Do I need to keep peanut butter? Because if you truly are going to take your responsibility at a high level, you're want to know how do

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I keep this child safe? What are their tendencies? What can they eat? What can they not? Especially in today's world, it feels like more and more allergies other than before.

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But yeah, what you're talking about is prepping mentally. You're getting in the mindset of what's it going to take to take care of this child.

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So effectively and lovingly. So one of the things that I learned, I don't know where I learned it. It was a while ago, but it's something

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I've applied with our children and with just everybody, but specifically with you. And it's always adjusting and changing, but no, no two human beings communicate exactly the same.

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There might be similarities, but nobody communicates exactly the same. For instance,

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I'm direct and I can be, I tend not to be soft and I'm direct, which

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I appreciate that kind of communication. It for sure has its place. Right. Where I'm like, Hey, just give me the information.

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And I don't, I don't need to hear an hour story about how you got to that conclusion.

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Just tell me the conclusion. Like you, when you and I go to the doctor's office, they're like this, this, this,

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I'm like great doc. And then you have like a thousand questions for them. That's the nurse in me too though.

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It is. But, but not even, that's not true because there are times when it could be anything.

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We buy a car and you want to know this, you want to know this, you want to know that. Or personality wise, you read the instructions entirety.

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I look at the pictures and I'm like, got it. Yeah. I want all the information. Which for the first time you didn't read the instructions.

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I know. Like in your life. And then I messed up. Like, see, but you don't read the instructions and you do fine.

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Because I am okay with doing it the second time. No, I don't want to, I want it done the first time. Yeah. You call me to do it the second time.

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We're getting distracted. We are, but it's still fun. So every, so kind of our point, first point is that this is just wisdom.

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We just want to help you live life in a way that, you know, we live in such a complicated life.

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So why don't we just use wisdom here? First of one is we all tend to communicate differently.

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No one communicates the same. And so what I want to do is when I'm talking with anybody,

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I'm paying attention to their tone. You ever talked to a close talker? They're like way up here.

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And close talkers, you need to be aware of that. If someone else is not a close talker, I am. I can handle it. But if someone isn't, you can totally turn them off and distract them.

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And you can see it on the face. Like if their neck is crunched back and they're like leaning away from you, because I lean away from the mic.

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Yeah, that's close. That's just an example of that. There's different styles of communication and it's healthy and good to think about this because the goal is

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I want them to feel loved, comfortable and trust, right? That's what I want. Right. So I'm going to observe that.

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We do this with our children. How I talk to Titus is not how I talk to Karis, whether it's instructing or affirmation.

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When Titus feels affirmed, this is our oldest son. The words I would say to him, it would be different kinds of words that I would use of affirmation for Karis, our oldest daughter.

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And Jane, yeah. And Jane, right. So all of them, I can't just say, well, good job works.

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Some kids would be like, that's through the moon, amazing. Some others are like, what do you mean? What kind of a good job? What did I do that was good?

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They're going to need more information. So that's kind of point one. So learning to communicate like the other person communicates, to observe it.

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Right. Or to not, you may not exactly communicate the same way they do, but don't do things that hinder them to receive the information.

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Right. Take it into consideration. And if both of you are taking it into consideration, then it's going to go a lot more smoothly.

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So I try to withhold details from you because they're irrelevant, you know?

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And I know you have learned also like to include things just for my own peace of mind.

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And for, it makes me feel loved because then I feel like you care enough to share something that you wouldn't normally share because you, it doesn't matter to you, but you know,

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I care. So out of love for me, you do that. And it was something I, and maybe that is more of a female thing versus male.

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I don't know. I don't think you can say that across the board, but that was something I was even trying to share with our son last week, you know, as, as I was asking him about his day and I just tried sharing with him about that.

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Hey, you know, some people like more details and it makes them feel loved. And so I know you're not trying to be mean, but.

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His answer is always good. Good. Yeah. You know, when answers and that's part, that's part of being teenagers also.

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But helping them work through that, I think is important instead of just getting frustrated and being like, why are they like that?

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Why do they do that? Well, they don't know. So just kind of helping him through that of how to share and how to be aware of the other person and not just come in and answer questions out of habit, but actually to think about that other person and see them.

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Yeah. Consider them. That's really good. And I think that goes back to what's the goal of communicating, which is to create love and trust.

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And again, we just become very selfish with that. So when you're when you're talking, when you think about your spouse, a lot of I'll give you the negative side of this.

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One of the practices I do when I'm dealing with a couple that is in a very like toxic thing there, they can't talk without fighting.

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That's how bad it is. And so what I'll do is I'll sit the couple down and I'm like, all right, husband,

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I want you to express to me why you're frustrated with your wife. And so he will say the words to me and then

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I'll repeat it back to her or vice versa, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. And then so he'll say it to me and then

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I'll say, all right, man, woman, I want you to tell me what they said. And so they regurgitate what they said.

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And it's not that's not what they said because they're filtering pain and frustration through that communication.

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And I'll say, actually, let me repeat back to them what they said. And I'll say it. And they're like, that's exactly what

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I said. Well, that's because we won. We can filter pain and frustration through our communication.

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So the reason why we're saying this is that if you're in a conversation, all of a sudden, you're realizing you're talking past each other.

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Sometimes it's healthy to stop and say, OK, wait a minute. Maybe I am not communicating this in such a way that my spouse is used to receiving information.

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And the loving thing would do like for me. Well, it happened here. You sat down and you're like,

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OK, we're just writing notes today, right? I'm like, no, we're actually doing a recording. What I should have thought of because yesterday we had this conversation.

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What I should have said is like I probably should have been more clear and provided more like exacting details of like,

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OK, we can't do this now. So we'll do notes and then recording. In my mind, it was logical.

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Now, that could have turned really bad, depending on how I said it. I was like, I can't believe you forgot that. Maybe I didn't.

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Me and my minimalist communication. Yeah. So go ahead.

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I just also in that I feel like we have to remember the goal is to make the person feel seen and loved.

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But also the goal is to understand the person. And I think we when we're this,

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I thought of this when you said talking past each other. A lot of times when we talk, our goal is to be understood. So we want to say all we need to say to make sure you're understanding me.

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And we're both working so hard to make sure you understand me instead of am

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I understanding them? And so I think we have to think to ourselves at what cost are we willing to be understood?

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You know, what what are we going to sacrifice in order to make sure they understand this and understand us?

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And I think you kind of touched on this little bringing up past things that they've said in the past to kind of get your point across or bringing up old failures of theirs.

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And I think I think that that just adds to the problem. But again, that starts from us in our head forgetting what the goal is in our home, in our relationship, which leads to what's the goal in our and how

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I'm going to communicate. They all run together. So I think. You know, keeping that in mind,

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OK, they're not they're not understand me right now, but what if I focus on trying to really understand them and where they're coming from and why they're saying what they're saying and, you know, kind of take that into consideration?

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Absolutely not formulating your next argument and listening instead. One of the things that you and I have done and I find it especially if someone's coming to me with a question or an accusation against me,

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I'll reword what they say in my own words so that I know I'm understanding what they're saying.

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For instance, like, OK, so, Judith, what you're saying is. That I should fight the urge to come up with my next argument and think about a way in which,

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OK, how what is she saying and how can I reword this? That's so I'll say that like someone says,

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John, I feel like, you know, you ignore me when you're walking through the halls.

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Oh, OK, well, maybe word that. So that does that mean like am I talking with somebody or is my head down or am

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I on my phone or am I literally like I can see you and you feel like I'm walking the other direction? Yeah, I feel like you see me.

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Oh, wow. OK, let's address that because I could have said, no, I don't. And then we never get to the heart of the issue.

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Yeah, right. Because you're yeah, because you're already thinking about how to defend yourself. And that's right.

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Yeah, that's right. I said, no, is this every time or it was this? You know, the point of it is I'm I am trying to get to the bottom of what they said.

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Right. Even though I may not agree with it or what they said isn't accurate. That would be loving and kind and giving preference.

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Like I'm going to prefer you above me. Right. Right. It's more important to understand you than to feel the need to defend myself right now.

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That's right. Yeah, that's right. We go to defense mode so fast that we actually don't ever really get to the root of what happened.

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And this has happened. I don't even know how many times where you're like, John, I'm not angry or John, I'm not accusing you.

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And I'm feeling attacked, you know, or vice versa, like, wow, I feel like you're attacking me. And I was like, no,

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I'm not doing that at all. So, yeah, I think it's healthy to realize that there and, you know, we could give you examples as far as like stylistic.

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You know, I was in my counseling. I have both men and women have both had these problems. So it's not just a male thing where they're blunt.

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And it's like, listen, I just need to like I'm not I don't I don't sugarcoat things, you know, to them.

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It's like sugarcoating is someone who's not bold. Right. Not going to stand up for the truth. Who's not dealing with the problem.

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That's right. I'm just going to deal with the problem straight on. And I'm like, well, no, you didn't deal with the problem straight on.

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You actually just caused a greater problem because you weren't patient, which is required in a relationship. Humility.

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Humble. Right. I mentioned this before we recorded that James describes. First of all, he says, when you lack wisdom, you can ask of God anytime you need it and he will give it to you, which is a wonderful promise from our father.

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And he describes wisdom in James for this way. He says that it's meek. It's humble and it's open to reason like what's the opposite of meek, right?

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What's the opposite of humble? We don't like either one of those. And the opposite of open to reason is closed mindedness.

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Right. So, there are times where I've been in a conversation with people, including you, and I'm like,

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Lord, you got to give me wisdom right now because my pride's kicking in. I'm getting really angry and there's no reason coming from her and I don't want to be open to it.

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Yeah. And that's where when we're thinking about when someone's communicating, that's the goal.

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And there's nothing wrong with just saying like, you've done this, John, you're coming across harsh with your words.

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Okay. Well, that's not my goal. Let me retry. I could, no, I've done this and it doesn't work.

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Well, you're misreading me. Yeah. Well, and also, you know, it just requires that humility of considering what they're saying.

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And then also when you say back to me, well, that's really not my intention.

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Right. That also takes humility on my part to be like, okay, I believe you. Okay. Let's start again then.

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Now that we both are aware of how we're feeling, let's start again. Let's try that again. Because both of us have the opportunity to totally mess that up.

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Yep. Right. And it's important to remember that these interactions are not transactional.

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For instance, we will justify our responses based upon the first communication. Right. Well, you yelled at me.

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I'm going to yell back. You were harsh to me. I'm going to be harsh back. It typically is not equal. One is going to overdo the other.

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And it's so dangerous. If I'm careless with my attitude, my tone, my words, that doesn't give judgment.

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There's nowhere in scriptures you're justified to sin. Now, if there's a verbal abuse going on, then you remove yourself from the situation.

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You don't abuse back. That's where things tend to get out of hand. Our church asked us recently, what does an argument look like with the two of you?

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And it's funny because I've never been asked that before. I'm like, I don't even know how to respond to that. And I'm pretty sure it looks like everybody else.

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Yeah. Well, I don't think that's true because I've done a lot of counseling. I'm like, well, I don't know if my wife could handle me saying that.

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Yeah. But it's funny because if you have children and you are trying to constantly shape their hearts and bring them back to the biblical view of every detail of their life, you'll find yourself saying things like you can't respond to them based on, you can't wait until they are speaking to you and treating the way you want to be treated in order to treat them the correct way.

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You have to start doing that on your own and ask God for strength and grace to continue to love them and speak to them with patience and kindness and gentleness and humility, even when they're not speaking that way to you.

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And when you're married and you have to keep repeating that phrase over and over again to your children, it's very convicting.

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But yeah, as far as being transactional, yeah, it's not, you're not justified to treat them just or speak to them.

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Well, I guess that's the way they like to communicate. It's a wrong way. And so one of you, one of you has to start modeling it the correct way and asking

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God for help. Yep. And I want to take this back to the hope of the gospel and our relationship with Christ because there are times in the heat of the moment, we all can feel it like we're getting hot, we're getting angry and we're going to bring justice to the situation.

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Well, that's not our, that's not our responsibility to bring justice to the situation. Our responsibility is to actually bring grace and mercy to the situation.

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When you think about when the disciples asked Jesus, Lord, teach us to pray like you.

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In his prayer, he says, and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.

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And that's something that we're supposed to do daily. And the concept of it is when I'm wronged, I'm going to forgive you because Christ forgave me.

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So the motivation is not that I'm trying to earn something or I'm afraid of the Father. My motivation is the love of the

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Father. We love because he first loved us. We forgive because he first forgave us. We give grace, meaning that we're going to give favor and blessing upon people, not because they earned it, but because there's joy and love in giving it.

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So even when Paul says, consider others more significant than yourself, he started with Christ lowering himself as a man and humbling himself for our benefit.

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So that's where we cannot be transactional here. If someone has done something offensive to me,

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I respond with grace, not puggishly. You can see it in their eyes and their face.

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Like, well, you yelled at me, but I'm not going to yell back at you. Well, now I want to punch you.

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I mean, not me, but that's kidding. But that has really helped me when I step back.

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And at times I think to myself, how has God treated me? And I'm not God. I'm not saying we're going to be perfect.

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And that's not even the goal to be perfect. But the goal of it is to say, look how compassionate he's been to me.

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I want others to experience that same compassion. Right, right. So you get an argument or maybe not an argument, but you're trying to communicate something and you realize the other person has messed up.

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And so you do what it takes to make them realize you're right. Well, great.

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You're right. You won. But where's your relationship now? What was damaged on the way to making sure that that person knew that you were right?

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It's just not worth it. It's not. So to turn this positive, our words can be the most powerful tool in our relationships, how we use them, when we use them, at the tone we use them.

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And there is an essence when you communicate to somebody in a way that they've already given you their preference.

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Like, hey, I don't like that. Like, for instance, Judith and I grew up where everybody has their words in their home.

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Stupid is not allowed, or you can bleep this out, parents, but fart is not allowed in some homes or the

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C where you can't say crap or whatever. Everybody has their like, it's not acceptable in our house to say these things.

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Like even at our house, we have in our home, we teach our boys, we're going to get there one day, but you don't pass gas at the table, right?

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Or you don't burp at the table. But right or wrong, they're there and they're kind of ingrained in us.

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And we need to be sensitive that like, this isn't right. This isn't wrong. This is your preference. I'm going to prefer you. I'm going to take my eyes off myself and show you love.

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Right. And some of these things are like, there are like, for instance, they're just things that just, you know,

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I don't care about, but to you, it's like, man, I really don't like that. I just, I don't like it. And I'm like, okay, well, it's not like breath or food for me.

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I don't need it to be sustained in life, you know, and it's not putting me in danger and it's not dishonoring the

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Lord. So I can do that. And I'm talking more about how we talk, words we say.

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So if your spouse says, hey, I don't like it when you say that, I'll like it when you do that. You know,

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I don't like it when you raise your voice at me, things like that. Or I don't like it when you ignore, I ask you a question and you ignore me because we've done this.

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Or you're not, you don't look at me when you talk to me ever. And yeah. Or you're on your phone and I'll feel like you're paying attention to what

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I'm saying. Like you're saying you're listening, but it's hard for me to believe you're listening. Okay. I'm going to put my phone down.

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You know, you'll do this to me. I'm thinking. Right. Right. I'm not ignoring you. I'm just processing this before I say it.

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Right. Before I was like, did you hear what I said? Do you acknowledge me? Right. So I hope this is helpful and this is a little bit longer than we wanted it to be.

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But we just wanted to give you some, I know there's couples who really struggle and it seems like every day is just a fight.

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Verbally. It's like a verbal fight every single day. And I think what we're doing is we're not allowing

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Christ in the gospel and the promises of joy coming from laying our life down, looking to our forgiveness, looking to the grace we have received and saying, okay,

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God will, God will actually protect me. I don't need to protect myself. Right. And, and letting that permeate every aspect of our life, including communication with the people that are around us all the time.

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Yeah. And I'll say one more thing, then I'll let you kind of have one last word. If you want to respond to what I'm going to say,

27:12

I, your children are so impacted by how you talk to them. Right. It is just, if you, if your home is based on dominance and volume and that's how you control your children, they're not obeying out of love for you and out of comfort and safety.

27:30

They're obeying out of fear. Right. And look ahead because when they, as they get older, the fear won't work anymore.

27:37

No. And they'll respond with anger and volume. Right. Yeah. I think gentleness is a huge factor with our, with each other, but with our kids too, gentleness.

27:46

And, um, I don't think obedience, uh, or, or, or demanding obedience has to be opposite of being gentle.

27:56

Right. And there's a, like we are called to fear the Lord and that means a respectful reverence for who he is and our children need to have a respectful reverence, but there's a difference between being afraid of a parent and honoring a parent.

28:08

There's a difference between, um, guilting a child into obedience and helping a child understand the joy of obedience.

28:16

Right. And I think you and I have both experienced this in our, in our, uh, life, but also in our parenting where we're like, wow,

28:23

I think I just guilted my child to do something versus helping them understanding the joy of honoring their parent.

28:29

Or parents, you could probably relate that, that look on their face when you've raised your voice or you've said something sarcastic, that's hurtful to make your point.

28:40

Um, we didn't, we didn't even talk about sarcasm. That's a whole other. I will just give this one example.

28:46

Um, I remember when Karis, I think she was seven or eight. I think she was seven and we were in a room, we were cleaning up or something.

28:53

And I said something sarcastic to get my point across because I was frustrated with her. And she looked at me, she said, mom,

29:00

I don't, I don't like it when you joke that way. I'm, I don't, and she was trying to describe what

29:07

I was saying, but, and also just kind of let me know, I don't like that. And I was really convicted.

29:14

And I thought, cause that's kind of bullying. I was speaking out. Sarcasm is something that has to be understood and, and as a learned thing.

29:22

And so I, I said, well, honey, you're right. That's called sarcasm and it can be really hurtful and I'm sorry.

29:29

And I, I won't do that anymore. But yeah, sarcasm is another thing that you have to be really careful with.

29:35

Okay. So I want to ask a question though. Sure. Okay. So, so you and I, this is something we have really tried to work on over the last several years, communicating, and it's been a joint effort.

29:45

So what, what, what's something helpful for the, for the spouse who's listening right now, who is recognizing we have horrible communication and these fights get started all the time for no reason, like not over a certain issue, which is a really good sign.

30:00

It's over communicating. Where do we start? How do I, as a spouse who we haven't talked about this as a couple, how do

30:09

I start the process of healing our communication and how we communicate? Yeah.

30:15

I mean, whether, whether it's the, you know, the husband or the wife, hopefully both will hear this, but let's say one's not, you know, one's not willing to make that effort.

30:26

I think trusting in the sufficiency of Christ, realizing that he will protect you and guide you is important.

30:37

When it's, I had to say this recently to an individual

30:43

I was working with. I said, you do realize every day you have to choose to forgive. God forgives us once because he's

30:51

God, but we can't, you know, I have to forgive you every day, especially on the days that I struggle with things that have happened in the past and you do as well.

31:00

But we have to, this is why it says, pray, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. There's a, there's a constant reminder that if you go in thinking,

31:08

I'm never going to struggle with this again, it's not. So you're gonna have to wake up every day and say, Lord, give me the strength to not hold a grudge, to not bring up these old, these old issues and to be loving and kind and to look, the only way to do this, if you're, if you're not looking to Christ and the significance of what he is for you, because just what we try and do is

31:29

I find my significance in you and how you view me. And how you make me feel.

31:35

That's right. And I need to find my significance in how I make you feel. Like, I want to think about like, how can

31:40

I make my wife feel loved and feel cared for whether she does it in return, like, because I'm already taken care of in Christ.

31:47

Right. And that's the significance is that love that you are really wanting to show me is coming from Christ through you.

31:53

Right. And you're going to need encouragement because this gets hard when you do it on your own. This is why the Bible calls us to a congregation that says,

32:00

Hey, look, lift each other up, encourage each other, build one another up because it's hard. I mean, you and I both need this.

32:05

I know that I long for Sundays to be refreshed and renewed and reminded that I, there's no way

32:11

I'm going to be able to accomplish all that I need to accomplish for God and his kingdom. If I don't have the strength of others loving me and caring for me, you know?

32:20

So, yeah, I think if you have, you know, and this, to be frank, your kids, it feels like it's always one sided, you know, you're always the one making the efforts.

32:30

And so let alone your spouse, you add your kids on it. You can feel like you're on an island and no one else cares.

32:36

And I think we have to be super careful of not allowing self -righteousness to come into our relationships because it does like, well,

32:42

I'm the only one trying. And so the reason why this relationship isn't working is because of you. Well, I don't think that's what

32:50

God intended for that to be. And we're forgetting our own nature. And how would you respond to that?

32:56

Um, and I already forgot the question. Like, you only have one spouse, you know, you got to, you know, like if you're the one spouse who's hearing this, like, how do you enter into this and not lose heart while trying?

33:08

Well, yeah, I think, I think asking God for help constantly and like daily, maybe hourly to love and show that love your spouse will notice.

33:18

They might not admit it depending on how that relationship is, what's, you know, state it's in, but they will notice.

33:24

And just like you said, like not underestimating, like God wants to be glorified, you know, he wants to be glorified in our marriages.

33:30

And so if you're praying for that and you are loving, um, he's going to help continue to give you the strength that you're asking for to love.

33:39

And so I think, um, yeah, just keeping in mind that it's not transactional, just reminding yourself of all those things, like constantly just laying down your life, um, for that person.

33:50

Yeah. That's so good. And, you know, I would say, um, learning, this will be my final, my final words is like figuring out ways that you know, that those words land with kindness and love.

34:03

Like, um, this is not be a dumb illustration, but I'll use it anyways and we'll be done. But like even yesterday

34:08

I could tell you had a lot going on. You had a ton of appointments. I don't think you were feeling really well.

34:13

And so I thought, well, maybe I'll just cook dinner. And so I called you and said, Hey, what, what do you want me to grill tonight? And we ended up eating leftovers, which was fine.

34:20

But I could tell in your tone and in your face that it wasn't that I actually was going to end up cooking dinner.

34:26

I totally would have. But it's the fact that I noticed it. Yeah. And so I use those words of like, I want to just give

34:32

Judith kind of like a verbal break where her heart kind of goes, okay, that's one less thing

34:37

I have to think about. Right. Right. And that's what I'm talking about is that sometimes people are like, well, how does this even work?

34:43

Just pay attention, like make it your priority to think, I want this person to feel safe and loved and heard and cared for and that they matter and they're significant.

34:51

And it's your words that can do that. Right. Right. Yeah. Y 'all just want to know we're not alone.

34:56

Yeah. And it changes, you know, it changes all the time and we should be okay with that. Well, this has been an extra long episode.

35:02

I know we felt like we kind of rambled, but our goal is to feel like we're sitting down with you as a couple or even as an individual.

35:09

And we just wanted to have a conversation with you with some of the things that we've struggled with that we've had to fight for.

35:15

Right. You know, listen, again, what is law and cannot change is the gospel in Christ and the hope of Christ.

35:23

Those are things that cannot change how we have applied them. Listen, there's no guarantee it's going to work exactly in your home, but I'll leave you with this.

35:32

If your goal is to make the other person loved, which is the command from scripture, love others, right?

35:37

Love God, love others. And the motivation behind that is God's love for you. Then you're going to be, you're on the right path.

35:46

We're just trying to help you talk through roadblocks and struggles, things that we've felt, you know, and you know, when

35:52

Paul says, consider how to build one another up, that's what we're trying to do. Right. We're trying to build you up. So, all right.

35:57

Well, thank you, Judith. This is longer than we wanted, but we appreciate you guys listening. We appreciate your feedback.

36:02

It's been very kind. Not going to, not going to lie. This is hard. This is harder than I thought it was going to be.

36:09

Talking about theology with Justin is like super easy. Talking about marriage and parenting personally.

36:16

Yeah, this is hard. And I'm not a talker, so. All right.