The Calvinism Debate with Michael Brown Pt 1

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I have been looking forward to this today, this show, tomorrow's show, for a good number of weeks now.

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I'm delighted to welcome you to the Line of Fire. Michael Brown, thanks for being with us in a moment. I'll be introducing our special guest who'll be joining me today and tomorrow,

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Dr. James White, as we discuss, dialogue, debate, the issue of Calvinism.

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I won't be taking calls today, we'll be taking calls for Dr. White tomorrow. If you do want to contact me, you want to sound off on something, give us a call.

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This will be off the air though, 888 -378 -FIRE. You can leave a voicemail, maybe we'll play it on the air tomorrow, 888 -378 -3473, or you can email me during the program at drbrown, that's drbrown, at askdrbrown .org.

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Over the months that we've been on the air, the years, recent years, we get tons of emails on many, many different questions.

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A lot of people have Sabbath, law, Jewish -related questions. The question that would come up probably next to those is

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Calvinism. What do I believe about Calvinism? From both sides, people emailing, and I said, you know,

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I need to do a show with that, and the man that came to mind is the perfect one to do it with is

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Dr. James White. He moderated a debate I did in Phoenix in 1995 with an

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Orthodox Jewish rabbi. That's when I learned of him and his apologetics work. I have the utmost respect for him, his debates with Mormons, with Roman Catholics, with agnostics, with atheists, his sober writing about King James only issues and other things like that.

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On Calvinism, we have differences, so we're going to discuss these for the good of the body today, but whatever we get into today and tomorrow, the goal is not to win a debate.

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The goal is to do our best to present the issues clearly, bring them into sharp focus. Dr. White and I fully agree that the sole basis for our discussion has to be the testimony of Scripture as carefully exegeted, and God willing, after these shows, we'll schedule time to be on his show where we can get more time to get into the issues, to get into the relevant

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Scriptures on his web broadcast, and then hopefully we can do, like, a full -blown multi -hour face -to -face debate one of these days.

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James, thanks so much for joining us today. James White. Well, it's great to be with you. You know,

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I'm not sure how to look at this. Someone told me that this show was meant to be, but then

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I thought that you chose to come on, so we'll have to work through these issues together. It was both.

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Both. So, tell me just the range of debates that you've had over the years as you stand up as an apologist for the faith.

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Well, it really started with Mormonism. That was my real focus at the beginning. That expanded out fairly quickly to other areas.

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But as far as actual moderated public debates, we've done about 90 so far, and we really started with challenges on Roman Catholicism.

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Some of the leading Roman Catholic apologists, like Jerry Matatix, the folks at Catholic Answers, Father Mitchell Pacwa, and I have done five debates together that are,

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I think, some of the best in that particular area, because he's a very respectful guy. But that's expanded out a lot.

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I don't think you've quite... You haven't had your Ehrman debate yet, have you? No, that's April 15th at Ohio State University.

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Okay, yeah. I debated Bart Ehrman on the reliability of scripture last January. John Dominick Crossan, Marcus Borg, of course

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Crossan being one of the co -founders of the Jesus Seminar. John Shelby Spong on the subject of homosexuality.

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If you haven't seen that one, you would enjoy it. I watched that one, actually. It was amazing. Well, amazing for not being a debate.

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I mean, the man has never heard of the concept of cross -examination before, but that was fascinating.

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And, of course, Barry Lynn of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. I would imagine you would know that he tried to sue us to suppress the tapes of that particular debate, because freedom of speech is only for those on the left.

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And recently, starting in 2006, really, I've really been focusing on the subject of Islam I've debated

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Shabir Ali four times so far, Zulfiqar Ali Shah. I'll be going to London next month to debate

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Abdullah Al Ansari at Trinity Road Chapel in London. And so, Islam has become a real central area of my focus over the past number of years.

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Tremendous. Yeah, and we need to get folks praying for you when you go to London for this debate, and even helping you get there.

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You know, the interesting thing is, normally when I'm debating rabbis or others, we develop a friendship, but we are so on completely other sides of the issue that there's a different approach.

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So, I mean, 99 .9 % of the time I'm cheering you on and in your corner and saying amen, as I know you are with me, but today we'll have our differences.

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In the next four or five minutes, lay out for our listeners, as clearly and concisely as you can, what the

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Calvinistic system of belief is and why you feel it's so important that Christians understand this and embrace it.

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Well, I really think that when we talk about the issue of Calvinism, we're simply talking about whether we are going to see the gospel as a

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God -centered thing or a man -centered thing. Is it primarily what God, the triune God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, has chosen to do in the eternity past to bring glory to the triune

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God, or is it primarily something that is focused upon man and what man does?

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I really do believe that a theocentric reading of the New Testament leads to the conclusions that Reformed theology has drawn down through the centuries, and specifically,

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God's kingly freedom, his freedom to glorify himself in the way that he chooses, his freedom to create the universe as he sees fit, and his sovereign decree, which forms the very fabric of time and the events in time.

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And I think this is probably where we're going to have to focus most of our attention today is we really seek to answer basic questions, many of which are answered,

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I think, in such texts as the trial of false gods in Isaiah 40 -48, in demonstrating who the true

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God is over against false gods, that he is the one who knows the beginning from the end, the true

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God demonstrates that he knows the future intimately, and that he takes responsibility for the events that take place, and he knows why everything happened.

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There is a purpose in everything that takes place. And if there is a sovereign decree on the part of God, then we have to answer questions such as, how does this relate to the issue of sin?

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What is the range of man's creaturely freedom? He certainly can't have autonomy. You can't have multiple autonomous wills in the universe that are free of each other's influence.

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But man's creaturely autonomy, how far does that go? What's the nature of that? And then that leads us, of course, into the specifics of such things as, does that decree include the identity of the elect?

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What is God's purpose in creating the non -elect? What is his relationship to them?

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What is common grace? And what is the nature of man prior to regeneration? What is he capable of doing?

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What does he do consistently? Can we answer questions like that? And all of it comes down to, and I heard you say this,

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I listened a number of times to the four programs you did late last year, both the two where you explained your own journey in these matters, and then the two where you had people calling in.

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I've listened to it multiple times, and you had said many times, you take the position you take because you are forced to it by believing what the scriptures say.

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You want to believe exactly what God has said and nothing more. That's exactly why I take the position that I do.

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And I don't say that for us to say, well, then the Bible just must not be clear enough.

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I really do think that we need to go to the text of scripture. And I think that God's means of glorifying himself, the central means by which he glorifies himself, should be something the scriptures are sufficient to actually explain to us and to reveal to us that this is why

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God has done what he has done. And as you were saying in the last program I was listening to while riding, even this morning, in the pre -dawn hours by a headlamp on my bicycle, you were saying this has really practical ramifications, and it does.

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I'm an elder in a Reformed Baptist church, and the theology that I am forced to by a consistent exegesis of the text of scripture has greatly impacted, for example, my working as a hospital chaplain a number of years ago.

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One of my most popular books, my second most popular book, is a book on grieving and encountering death and dealing with death.

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And so it does have a tremendous impact on the worship of the church, missions, all sorts of things like that.

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So these are important issues, but as you were saying, I have fond memories of sitting in a room at Aristotele State University, and I remember to this day scribbling on a notepad while your opponent was speaking, and I can still see the big letters

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I wrote it in, the Pharisees live. It was an incredible thing, and I've appreciated the work that you did in that area.

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I loved listening to you on the unbelievable radio program with Justin Brierley, and that was

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Rabbi Shmuley Botiak, wasn't it? Yes, my friend Shmuley. Yeah, and I'm going to be on Unbelievable in just a couple weeks, twice in one day.

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They're in London, and so our paths have only crossed at one time, but they've actually crossed in many other ways, too.

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They have. All right. Hey, we're up against a break. When we come back, James, I want to ask you a couple of questions for clarification to make sure that we rightly understand your position.

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Stay with us, friends. A whole lot more to come on the Line of Fire today. Welcome back to the

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Line of Fire. Michael Brown, so glad to be with you with my special guest, apologist, theologian, author,

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Dr. James White. As we discuss, debate the issue of Calvinism today, we'll continue tomorrow,

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God willing, continue on Dr. White's webcast as well, web show, so that we can further discuss these issues.

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You can email me at drbrown at askdrbrown .org, or you can go to the Line of Fire blog.

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We have it up ready, so askdrbrown .org. Click on the Line of Fire. You can get into a discussion there about today's show, and if you want to leave a voicemail, sound off on something that we can play on the broadcast tomorrow, 888 -3785.

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Okay, James, just to make sure that we're clear on Calvinistic teaching,

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I just want to ask a few questions, because I know that there can be misconceptions on different sides.

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Really, any time we have doctrinal issues or controversy, there can be misconceptions, and these would be some of the natural questions that would come up.

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So I just want to take a few minutes to clarify what you believe Scripture does say, and then probe that a little further, and then we can move on to some of the questions you raised that you want to bring up to me, okay?

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Mm -hmm. Sounds good. All right. Does God love all people in a saving way?

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Not in a saving way. God's love is expressed both in common grace as well as in salvific grace, and obviously

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I would not say that God showed the same love to the Amorites that he showed to Moses.

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No, I would not say that God loves all people in a salvific sense, no. All right, so then he does not desire the salvation of all people.

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Not in the sense that we need to be very careful at this point, because there is the truth that God commands all men everywhere to repent.

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So in as much as God's prescriptive will, that is, his law, commands all men everywhere to repent, you can say that God desires the repentance of all people in the same way that he says,

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Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, et cetera, et cetera. But we know from numerous instances in Scripture that that prescriptive will is not all that is in play in history.

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We know from the story of Joseph's brothers, for example, that while God said not to kidnap and not to sell your brother into slavery, he also did that for a purpose, to save many people alive, as we see in Genesis 50.

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So when we say desire, then if we're talking about his eternal decree, which he always accomplishes, where God accomplishes anything that he desires to do,

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Psalm 135 6, then no. If we're talking about just in a general sense, which is what you and I would have to base our activities on, because we don't know the identity of the elect, then we can proclaim the gospel to any person, because we don't know who the elect are, but God does.

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All right, I just want to make a comment and then come back to this with a further scriptural question to this.

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When I look at God's sovereignty, in my view Calvinism diminishes God's sovereignty rather than exalts it.

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And I see it as actually detracting from the glory of God rather than doing things to the glory of God or having a teaching to the glory of God.

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But, for example, with so many things in Scripture, we see God being grieved,

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God saying, I never intended this, this is not what I desired, this is what

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I wanted to see happen, and it didn't happen because part of God's plan, the way he set things up, which is what

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I bow down to, whatever he says, you and I agree, we bow down to. He's God. As I understand throughout the

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Word, and it's really hundreds of Scriptures, almost the entire Bible is telling this, that God is displeased with certain things, he makes clear this was not his intent, said if you'd only done this it would have gone well for you, et cetera, et cetera.

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People sin, people grieve him, and yet through that he accomplishes his will, and ultimately for eternity he will have a people that love him and serve him forever and ever to his glory.

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So his ultimate purposes will be accomplished. But if you can think that God can get the chess match to end a certain way, even though every chess piece has a certain freedom, to me that's a greater sovereignty.

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So that's, of course, how I'd understand Genesis 50, not that God arranged the kidnapping, but that through evil acts of people

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God accomplished his will. But just explain again how you would view verses like Ezekiel 3311,

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As I live, declare as the Lord, it is not my desire that the wicked shall die, but that the wicked turn from his evil ways.

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It is not my desire that the wicked person shall die, rather that he turn back and live. There are many similar verses and expressions.

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How do you read those? Because it seems to me to be the consistent testimony of God's word that he has an ardent desire, but he's worked things out with a certain freedom to get end results that he desires.

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Well, one of the problems that we have here is, and this is something I sort of tried to raise a little bit in email, is

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I'm not 100 % certain exactly where you come down on the issue.

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I mean, you specifically said in the programs that you are not in the open theism camp. So you do affirm that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of all events, and so that then raises the question as to whether some of these objections are not valid against both of us.

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That is, if God chose to create the universe that he created, at the time of creation he knew exactly what was going to happen, then we either have to believe that he had a purpose in everything happening, or he just simply gave this concept of freedom and sort of rolled the cosmic dice and said, ah,

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I win at the end. But if he created this particular universe with all the events in it, then the question as to why he does that is a question that really any

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Christian theist has to answer. The open theist doesn't have to, because he takes from God the ability to know what free creatures are going to do, so as to maintain man's autonomy.

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But anybody else who says, no, God knew when he created, who would believe and who would not? Even if it's by looking down the corridors of time, you still have to deal with the issue of why the corridors of time look the way that they do, and why they cannot change.

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That is a very, very important issue that may we can, because I asked, you had mentioned something about William and Craig, maybe we can get into whether you hold that Molinistic perspective.

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But in regards to those texts, even as we read Genesis 50 just now,

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I would point out that it doesn't say that God permitted it for good.

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I understand that your Ph .D. is in Semitic languages, and so you're aware of the fact that in Genesis 50 -20 there's a direct parallel in the original language between God meant this for good, and you meant evil against me.

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There's no difference between the terms that are used in the original language or in the Greek Septuagint. So I accept both of those.

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In other words, I accept that people acted sinfully, not because God designed them to, but because they chose to, and God chose to accomplish something higher through it.

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That's His power and wisdom. Not that He had a decree that they did it to get those ends, but in His infinite wisdom,

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He can orchestrate things to accomplish a certain goal. I know Genesis 50 you often point to in debates in writing.

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You have so many other examples, though, where it says the other. God says, I intended this, but you did this.

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Well, I would need to have specifics, because there is always God's prescriptive will that is expressed in His law, and when we break

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His prescriptive will, there are certain blessings and curses that, of course, are enunciated for us in the

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Old Testament. But the point is that God meant what the brothers did for good to save many people alive.

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If the brothers had not done what God intended to occur, then the very many people who were saved alive would not be alive to that day.

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So, Joseph, there is no other way that God could have gotten Joseph into Egypt. It's impossible that God could have had another way to do it.

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No, the point is that the way God got Joseph into Egypt is the exact way

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He had decreed from eternity that it would take place. Ah, okay. That's what I believe you're reading into the text. But we'll pursue this.

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We'll stay right on this. It's an important point. Stay with us, folks. We'll be back shortly. Welcome back to The Light of Fire.

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Michael Brown joined by my special guest, Dr. James White, as we begin our dialogue and discussion about Calvinism.

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Why Dr. White is a committed Calvinist because of the word, why I'm a committed non -Calvinist because of the word, and why we both feel these issues are so important for the

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Bible. Again, I won't be taking calls today to have maximum time. The dialogue with Dr.

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White, we'll probably take some calls tomorrow, but you can email me, as others are right now, at drbrown, drbrown, and askdrbrown .org.

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If you'd like to leave a message to play on the air, 888 -378 -FIRE, or go to our discussion at askdrbrown .org,

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click on the line of fire for the blog there. We also have Dr. White's website, AOMIN, as in Alpha Omega, Omega Ministries, AOMIN .org.

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I know he could use some support on his way to London, so get behind him as he's going.

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All right. So this really is an interesting thing for me because of my respect for you and the work that you do, but because we love the word, and because we love truth, and we want to see

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God glorified, we'll press in and confront each other on our beliefs here.

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So let's, as we're talking about this God decree, everything that happens, and all the issues, and author of sin, et cetera, again,

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I'm trying to— Well, careful of that language there, not author of sin. Oh, yeah,

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I know. This is the stuff that it triggers. I'm not imputing that view to you, okay? Right. But, so if we start, you know,

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I do a lot of study, inductively try to read through the scriptures on a given subject and see what I can learn as I'm going.

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So, you know, early on when we get to Genesis 6, we see that God is grieved over what human beings have done.

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And, you know, there's a lot to talk about in the Hebrew, what it actually says, but his heart is clearly grieved there, and he decides he has to destroy the earth.

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To me, it's completely contradictory to say that his heart was grieved over what he had decreed that people would do, and, in fact, they were only doing the only possible thing they could do, because that's what he decreed.

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To me, he should be rejoicing over that rather than grieved over it. Well, to me, the question would then be, well, if God did have absolute knowledge of what was going to happen in his creation when he created, then why would he be grieved at all?

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Because he knew it was going to happen, he chose that it would happen. He could have not created if it was going to cause that problem.

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You see, what we're struggling with here is we're talking about God's providence, how he has decreed to interact with his creatures.

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You and I are time -bound creatures, and we cannot even begin to really wrap ourselves around God's eternal decrees and how

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God exists outside of time and all the rest of these things. But one thing that I affirm is that God has chosen to interact with us in his sovereign decree.

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That doesn't deny that the decree exists. It seems that we come from the perspective that says, well, if God interacts, if God is grieved in Noah's day, if God brings

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Assyria against Israel but then punishes Assyria because Assyria does what he decreed they would do, but with a haughty spirit in Isaiah chapter 10.

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They went too far. Well, it was the intention of their heart that they're judged upon. That's what they're marked for.

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Zechariah 1 also says they overdid the punishment of those nations. So they went too far, and there was a wrong attitude.

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So as I see that, I don't see that somehow as God being limited and his actions being determined by man's.

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That is God's decree that he is going to interact with us in that way. It doesn't do away with the fact that God himself says,

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I will accomplish all of my purpose. Remember in Isaiah 46, remember the four?

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But just to jump in, okay. You say he decrees that he'll interact with us according to his purposes, and that's acceptable to you.

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I say that his purposes are much greater than any one individual event, that his purposes will ultimately be accomplished.

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But in the midst of it, there is pain, there is grief, there is hardship, and that's the way he desired to set it up.

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And throughout the word, I'm not going to read this nonexistent decree that everything that happens is going to go exactly according to his plan, because I see hundreds of verses telling me the opposite in terms of specific things that happen.

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But the ultimate outcome will be according to his plan. So I might cry with someone because they're going through pain now after surgery, even though I'm quite sure the surgery is necessary, and the recovery will be good.

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But I don't see how that's relevant to what I'm saying, because God himself says in Isaiah 46, 10,

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I make known the end from the beginning from ancient times and what is still to come. I say my purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

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And when he puts the false gods on trial in Isaiah chapter 41, he asks them to present their case, and notice what he says to them.

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He not only challenges them to tell the future, which is very common. That's what a true prophet can do and what the true

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God can do and false gods can't. But he also says, as for the former events, declare what they were that we may consider them and know their outcome.

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Now, a historian can tell you what happened in the past, but as you know, a historian can often not tell you why it happened.

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God challenges them to say why. That means there is a purpose. And so when I'm at the deathbed, when

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I'm crying with the person, I don't believe that there is any random purposeless evil.

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It has a purpose, not just that God's going to redeem it, but that it came into existence for a purpose.

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Otherwise, do you believe that all evil has a purpose in God's plan? God can redeem it for an ultimate purpose, but there are many evil acts that are against God's will.

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He will ultimately get something out of it. He's the Redeemer, but he didn't cause it. He didn't decree it.

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Again, I see Scripture throughout the whole principle being what people and Satan mean for evil, God can turn for greater good.

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So in no way do I see God behind, you know, another heinous act where a guy kidnaps a little girl, rapes her over a period of days, and then buries her alive.

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I see God abhorred at that. I see God angry with that, displeased with that, but he can ultimately get good out of it because he's the amazing sovereign

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God. I don't see him in any way decreeing it or standing behind it. To me, that's libelous against God.

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So when God created, he created a world in which that was going to happen.

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He knew it was going to happen, but he does not have any purpose in it happening. He has a purpose he will bring out of it.

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That is God getting good out of evil. That is God bringing light out of darkness. Just like when

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Jesus says Satan's bound a person for 18 years, he doesn't say God bound him, he said

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Satan bound him, but because he's there to set the captives free and be the redeemer, he sets that person free.

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Okay, he uses means. We all agree that God uses means, but what if in the death of that little child, that horrendous situation that you just mentioned, in the death of that little child, by that death, hundreds of people come to know

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Christ. But the point is that basically you're saying, yeah, but that's just he's reacting to what's taking place in time.

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What if he had a plan for that girl? He's a million steps ahead, okay, and he's the redeemer.

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That's the whole point. I think, again, you lowered God down to our level that he has to program it to make it happen a certain way.

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I mean, look, when the Israelites committed abominations, he said you did things I never commanded or mentioned, and it never entered my mind.

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An open theist says he didn't know it was coming. Of course, I differ with that. You differ with that. But when he says

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I didn't command or mention or enter into my mind, he's saying I had nothing to do with this. I never intended this for you, but I can bring good out of evil.

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Or what he's saying is that what they did was horrifically abominable and against his decree, which he reveals in his law, his prescriptive will.

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But it was in harmony with his secret decree. Of course, because he can then bring, that's why the good comes out of it, and it's a specific -purposed good.

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All right, we'll continue, and I will address the question of how does God know the future when we come back.

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Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us. Michael Brown here, enjoying very much this passionate discussion, conversation with apologist, theologian, colleague, but today theological opponent in the

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Lord, Dr. James White. We're not taking calls today to have maximum time for this. We're going to continue the discussion tomorrow.

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Then, God willing, I'll be on Dr. White's web broadcast for a day or two where we can discuss these things in more uninterrupted form.

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James, I'll tell you, as I was just putting together some notes for today, I'm thinking we need to do this over a period of hours face -to -face one day.

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Well, yeah, we do, because we've hardly even commenced to begin to get to anything yet, and I can just see people throwing things at their radios out there right now.

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But it probably would be good to move on, even though both you and I know this is where the issue lies.

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Unfortunately, a lot of the conversation on Calvinism sort of floats above these foundational issues as to the nature of God's decree and issues like that.

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So that's why we have to start at the beginning. But a lot of folks want to know about the atonement and stuff like that. We probably need to get to those eventually.

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Right. Just a verse you can chew on overnight, but one of many like this.

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So we will move on, I agree. 1 Samuel 2 .30, where God says,

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I surely said, I promise, this is Eli and his descendants, that you and your house, your father's house, would minister before me forever.

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But now the Lord declares, far be it from me. Those who honor me I'll honor, et cetera. Which I see throughout the Word. God's willing to go in one direction.

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People sin, go against that. They forfeit blessing. But he ultimately accomplishes greater purpose.

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We can come back to that. I would like to ask you one question, and we can discuss it tomorrow. Because I would respond to that by saying, yes, again,

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I think David was always the one that God had chosen to use. And so what happened with Eli's sons had to be a part of that.

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But in Genesis 20, you know that God kept Abimelech from touching

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Sarah. And he says, I have kept you from sinning against me. My question would be, if he could keep someone from sinning against him, and he doesn't keep the man in your hypothetical situation from doing what he did, then why wouldn't he?

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If he can do it, and he has done it, and in fact I personally think he's doing it every single day, so often that we should all be on the ground in thankfulness to him.

29:46

Because I think if he wasn't, none of us could walk out our door without being killed. But since he can do that, and he doesn't, wouldn't it follow that God must have a purpose when he doesn't keep someone from sinning against him?

29:59

A purpose could be to let human sin take its course or human freedom have its repercussions. Or he knows in his wisdom, because again, he's sovereign and we're little puny people, that he knows when it's right to intervene and when it's not right to intervene.

30:13

That's not for me to ask. And I'm not going to take one exception and then try to extrapolate that something through the entire word.

30:21

But if we get back to the Atonement principle, you believing that Jesus died only for the elect and purchased their salvation, not made it possible, etc.

30:33

So when we go to an unsafe person, we don't know from a Calvinistic point of view if they're elect or non -elect, are we giving them a genuine offer?

30:43

When we command them to repent, from a Calvinistic perspective, we know they can't unless God enables them.

30:49

If they could believe, they'd be believing a lie because Jesus didn't die for them if they're not elect.

30:55

So to me, it's like saying, hey, I've got a car for you if you'll come up with the money. Knowing they don't have the money,

31:00

I don't really have a car. To me, I can't see it as a genuine offer that we're really giving to the lost.

31:07

And it seems to me as something duplicitous. Yeah, that was the objection that I heard you making initially, and that's one of the reasons

31:15

I needed to find out whether you really believe that God knows the future. Because in reality, if God knows who is going to believe him from the beginning of time itself, then you have the same problem.

31:28

Because he knows, and he inspires you to preach with fervor to a person, yet he knows that person's never going to believe.

31:35

So the question becomes, again, is that really a valid objection? Because the apostolic example is not to present the gospel as being something other than the call to repent and believe.

31:48

It is not, well, you should believe because Jesus did this for you. I never find the apostles making that presentation anywhere in Scripture.

31:56

And you can show them where they do, but I just don't believe that they do. It is repent and believe, and whoever calls on the name of the

32:02

Lord will be saved. And the Spirit and the bride say, come. So I'm telling them, come, and whoever,

32:08

I mean, I think it's a right deduction, whoever means me, if it's not a genuine offer, then

32:13

God cannot say I offered it to you and you refused it. I never really offered it because it was never really available.

32:20

We differ on what faith is. We differ on the very nature of man.

32:27

There is never going to be anyone who is going to turn from their sin because they're spiritually dead.

32:33

They're slaves of sin. They are not able, according to Romans 8, to do, they're not even able to submit themselves to the law of God unless something divine happens first.

32:42

Faith comes by hearing the word. That word is preached. Faith is available. And that's part of the justice of God, that there is a choice to make, which is why we have

32:53

Jews throughout the world. We'll be back. Welcome back to the

32:59

Line of Fire. Boy, this first hour is almost already. Dr. White and I knew this would happen, which is why we've already been making plans for you to get on his broadcast and discuss things at greater length.

33:11

Okay, James, so we can continue to frustrate our listeners, let me ask you one last question, and I'm going to let you talk right until the end.

33:20

We've got a few minutes, and then I'll just come on. So I want you to get the last word in. All right. But let me throw the question out.

33:26

Here's a guy drowning in the water. He can't swim. He's flailing. Even if he could swim, there's sharks surrounding him.

33:34

Somebody comes with a boat out of the blue. The guy's petrified.

33:40

He says, look, just grab that rope. Trust me, I'll take it from here. The guy grabs on. Somebody reaches in, pulls him out.

33:48

I don't see how there's any glory to the person. I've never heard a salvation testimony where anyone ever gave glory to themselves.

33:56

It was always how bad they were and how good God was. So I still don't get it as to how this is man -centered, man -glorifying.

34:05

You know, the guy's drowning. You know, it's the rock of ages. Fowl, I to the fountain fly.

34:10

Wash me, Savior, or I die. So all I'm doing is, you know, you're saying, just trust me.

34:16

Okay, and you pull the person out. The credit goes entirely to the Savior, 100%.

34:22

So I just don't understand how you could say it's man -centered. Go ahead.

34:29

You've got a couple minutes, and you get the last word. Well, because we're not crying out for help. We are crying out in hatred to God.

34:35

We are rebels. I responded to Norman Geisler's similar example in the book by pointing out that the biblical teaching about the nature of man is that he's not crying out for help.

34:44

If anyone's crying out for help, that's because God has already begun to work within them. We are rebel sinners, and we're dead at the bottom of the

34:50

Marianas Trench. These sharks already did their eating on us. And it is his will that has raised us to spiritual life.

34:57

That's why when I say man -centered, what I mean by that is that the common Arminian perspective is that God is attempting to save everyone equally, this prevenient grace concept, but that that grace doesn't actually save unless we enable it to.

35:12

Or as Norman Geisler says, Christ's death did not save anyone. It made all men savable. And really what

35:18

I wanted to get into in the last section was, and I hope maybe we can touch on this toward the beginning tomorrow, depending on where you want to go, but I really appreciate having this dialogue with you, because you, unlike most evangelicals, have 66 books in your

35:30

Bible, unlike 27, which is what most people have. You're not canonically challenged. You know the Old Testament. And for me, one of the greatest evidences of the particular redemptive work of Christ, called limited atonement, is the high priest in Hebrews chapters 2 through the end of the book, basically, that present the work of the high priest, and it's a perfect work.

35:51

His work actually perfects those for whom it is made. And so I would like to, maybe if we get an opportunity, to get an opportunity to look into when the sacrifice was made on the day of Yom Kippur, was that for the

36:03

Egyptians? Was that for the Babylonians? Or is that only for those who draw near? How could there have been a limited atonement back then, picturing an unlimited atonement in the future that would only make salvation a possibility, but not actually perfect anyone in its work?

36:18

I think there's a perfect unity between the decree of the Father, the work of the Son, and then the

36:24

Spirit comes. And I do believe faith is a gift of God. Ephesians describes it that way. Philippians 1 .29

36:29

says, It has been granted you believe. It is saving faith, faith that endures to the end.

36:35

That's the only faith that saves, is the work of the Spirit of God within our hearts. And so someday, when you have the redeemed before the throne, and those in hell, the only difference between those two groups is a five -letter word called grace, not my will.

36:50

Got it. So let's start with Leviticus 16 and Day of Atonement tomorrow, because I see it the exact opposite.

36:58

I see it as a clear example of God making it available for those that will receive the gift.

37:04

And here's the guy hating, cursing the person in the boat, but as that person reaches out, something happens, and they're willing to receive the gift.

37:14

Hey, it's all God's grace. It's all His mercy. He's the only Savior. James, thanks for taking time out of your day to do this.

37:20

We will resume tomorrow. God bless you. We are not going to waste any time with intros, with background, with reviews.

37:28

We're going to dive right back into the discussion on Calvinism. I don't want to frustrate you. I'm not going to be taking calls today.

37:35

You can always call Dr. White on his web radio program, but I want to get maximum time for our dialogue.

37:43

You can get involved in the online discussion, and tomorrow I'm going to reiterate some of my own views, and all of you who are

37:49

Calvinists, all of you who differ with me, you can go for it tomorrow and flood the phone lines with your calls, critiquing, interacting with me.

37:58

But right now, Dr. White on. Those not familiar with Dr. James White, he is one of the foremost

38:04

Christian apologists today, solid theologian, and on the forefront of standing up for the faith.

38:10

Ninety -nine percent of the time we are cheering each other on in terms of standing up for the faith and righteousness and the dignity of the name of Jesus in the midst of this fallen world, and here we are challenging one another on our views of Calvinism.

38:25

James, thanks again for being on the program. It's great to be with you, Michael, and someone just pointed out to me, and I hadn't even noticed this.

38:30

Do you realize that this is not a very colorful debate? White and Brown is sort of like an Amish debate.

38:36

Yeah. I did think of that, and when I debated a

38:41

Reform rabbi last September, he was silver and I was brown. The only challenge on that one was that he was almost an atheist, actually.

38:50

Yeah, that's a shame. That was a little different, but hey, just want to remind our listeners,

38:56

Dr. White is going to London, and he is going to be debating

39:01

Islamic leaders in London, so I want to encourage you to pray for him and go to his website, AOMIN .org,

39:12

get behind what he's doing as he lifts up the name of Jesus. That's going to be quite an environment, isn't it?

39:17

Well, it was, especially in November of 2008 when we did five debates in London.

39:22

It was a tremendous privilege to stand in front of an audience where half of the audience is in Islamic garb, some of the women in full burqa, you can only see their eyes, and to be able to proclaim the deity of Christ, to proclaim that he is our creator, our maker.

39:40

You cannot be neutral about him. He is not merely a Rasul. He is truly the son of God, and we have to deal with him as he has revealed himself to be.

39:49

So that was a great privilege, and it amazes me when I think of how this ministry started, that I could be in London having that opportunity.

39:58

And if I could just mention really quickly, because we want to get to our topic, but tomorrow afternoon, I think I mentioned this to you, we'll be doing a debate on my webcast with Tim Staples.

40:06

Mr. Staples is one of the staff apologists for Catholic Answers, and he and I are going to be debating 1

40:11

Corinthians 3, verses 10 and following, are these relevant to the concept of purgatory?

40:16

So it's going to be sort of an exegetical debate for 90 minutes. The purgatory debate, yes. So folks, go to Dr.

40:23

White's website, and then you can listen, and you can listen to the webcast, and then we're going to be planning out some time so I can go on his broadcast and get into these things.

40:32

Okay, since you just mentioned that, I'll mention that for those of you who have not seen the

40:38

Tyra Banks show today, I'm actually on it. There's a discussion, a very sad topic, so -called transgender children, these are little kids that think they're trapped in their own body.

40:47

The whole show goes in one direction. I have one little segment to speak the truth, and it was prerecorded.

40:52

So I think that's going to be going on in many TV stations right after this. So, hey, we're in the thick of it, by God's grace.

41:00

Yes, we are. All right, so here's what we're going to do. I got a lot of e -mails from folks saying they weren't clear on certain points that we had discussed.

41:07

So we've agreed to do some rapid -fire answers, and here's what

41:13

I'm going to do. I'm going to ask the question and then give you my position, James, clearly and concisely, and then you can give yours.

41:21

This way the viewers have both things out. We'll go through a few quickly, and then we'll dive into limited atonement issues and any direction that we go.

41:32

So the first question, and again, I'll ask it and then answer it so there's no ambiguity on my part.

41:38

Does God desire all men to be saved? I say absolutely yes.

41:43

The core of his inmost being of who God is, his deep, ardent desire, expressed in many verses that he takes no delight in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn and live, and Jesus' longing to gather

41:55

Jerusalem, God's love for the entire world, which I don't believe can be limited to the elect, God's delight to show mercy, that he has an ardent desire to see all people saved.

42:07

He has not willed in a forceful way that everyone will be saved, but he genuinely desires the salvation of all people.

42:15

So, James, how would you answer that? Does God genuinely desire the salvation of all people? And that brings us right back to the point that we were discussing yesterday, and that is the fact that God's prescriptive will revealed in his word and in his law tells us that God commands men everywhere to repent, and so there is an expression of God's prescriptive will in his law, and that is what we are judged upon, by the way, that is what we must live in light of, because his secret will, his sovereign decree, which gives the very form to the fabric of time itself, is such a thing that I was just talking with a friend about this, and he mentioned

42:51

John Frame had said that, in essence, God in his decree has not decreed that his prescriptive will not be sinned against.

43:00

And, in fact, there are plenty of, there's all sorts of passages of Scripture where we see that God works such a way with Joseph's brothers, with the

43:08

Assyrians, with Abimelech, with the crucifixion of Jesus, where he works in such a way that he accomplishes his will, and he doesn't just simply take the sinfulness of men, he actually accomplishes his will.

43:21

So when we say God desires, the way that you just put it, you have one desire for God.

43:27

From my perspective, God's desire is to glorify himself for the salvation of a particular people in Jesus Christ, and he also desires to glorify himself through the righteous judgment of those who remain in their sin and in their hatred of God.

43:42

So there is a desire on God's part for the revelation of the entirety of his character, his divine character, including his mercy, his love, and his justice.

43:51

Right, so I affirm God's desire for the glorification of his name, and it will be ultimately accomplished both through mercy and justice.

43:59

But I'm afraid just by the emails that I got asking for clarification,

44:05

I'm able to answer this in a yes or no way. Yes, God desires all men to be saved, and since we have biblical language, you know, saying, it's not my desire that the wicked die, but rather that they repent, or God saying, how gladly

44:21

I would have treated you like sons, this is what I really desired to do. I desired to gather Jerusalem together, you weren't willing.

44:28

This is expressed in so many different ways. Isn't there a simple yes or no to God's actual desire?

44:37

I mean, I'm reading verses, and we would all agree exegesis comes before theology. That's the building block for theology.

44:44

So I know you have a detailed system that makes sense to you. I'm just afraid it's not clear to people listening.

44:50

Well, Michael, remember that Shmuley Botiak threw yes and no questions at you, that you had to very carefully delineate the problems in his yes and no questions, because they're based upon a problem.

45:04

Each one of those texts you just mentioned, if we went to Matthew 23, 37, if we went to 2 Peter 3, 9, if we went to Ezekiel 18, and I would be happy to do that,

45:12

I believe that in looking at each of those texts, we would not find that what I've said is contradicted by any of them, and in fact, it's very consistent with what

45:20

I'm saying. And so when you say, is there a simple yes or no, when you're talking about God's desires, that's like saying, could you give me a yes or no answer on the issue of God's eternity.

45:30

Can God be eternal and yet interact with beings in time? Well, the very question itself precludes the idea of simple yes and no responses.

45:39

We have to allow for the fact that there is a desire for God that is revealed in his prescriptive will, in his law, that says, you shall not sell someone to slavery, for example, or you shall not kill.

45:51

And yet, that took place in history, and God used that to his own glory, and I believe that is part of understanding what

46:00

God says when he says, Yahweh does whatever pleases him in the heavens and on earth and the seas and all their depths,

46:05

Psalm 135. Right. But there is a clear difference between God giving a command, don't steal, and then saying that God desires someone to steal or God doesn't desire someone to steal.

46:16

He doesn't desire them to steal, which is why he gives the command. I'll tell you what, we're coming up against a break.

46:22

We'll continue. But it's fine if you say there's not a simple yes or no answer. To me, there's a simple yes. That's fine.

46:27

I accept that. I want a clarity. I'm going to read this statement, and then we'll take a break and come back with the question of the offer of the gospel.

46:35

Two Calvinist scholars, Stonehouse and Murray, wrote this. We have found that God himself expresses an ardent desire for the fulfillment of certain things which he has not decreed in his inscrutable counsel to come to pass.

46:47

This means that there is a will to the realization of what he has not decreed of the will, a pleasure towards that which he has not been pleased to decree, which is indeed mysterious.

46:56

So you may have a reflection on that as we come back, but we'll continue the dialogue. Thanks for listening.

47:01

Email me at drbrown, drbrown at askdrbrown .org. Better yet, go to the Line of Fire discussion.

47:09

Welcome back, friends, to the Line of Fire broadcast. Michael Brown, delighted to be with you with my special guest,

47:14

Dr. James White. In the midst of a busy schedule, he consented to come on, a foremost apologist and theologian, and it's my joy and honor on the broadcast.

47:24

Again, I'm not taking calls today, tomorrow. All those that would agree with Dr. White's position, by and large, wherever you're coming from,

47:32

I'll be taking calls so you can challenge me on different things, but I want to give maximum time for interaction with Dr.

47:37

White. You can email me at drbrown, it's drbrown at askdrbrown .org, or you can go to the website, askdrbrown .org,

47:46

click on the Line of Fire, get involved in the discussion. And all our friends on the He's Alive!

47:52

radio network that are now listening to the Line of Fire, welcome. We are thrilled to be on the air with you.

47:58

So let me say again, James, you and I know this, but for the sake of our listeners, we are doing our best to present our differences clearly.

48:10

Everything I do, I do with the utmost respect for James and what he stands for and what he does, and his desire to honor and glorify the

48:16

Lord. And that's my deep desire today, is that whatever we talk about glorifies the

48:21

Lord, sharpens issues so that people can study the Word and come to biblical conclusions. James, I don't know if you had a comment on that conclusion of some

48:31

Calvinist authors. If you wanted to comment on that, please. Yeah, you had mentioned that in your presentation a few months ago, and I simply disagree on that issue.

48:41

And I attempted to offer in The Potter's Freedom an exegesis of each of the key texts upon which that was based.

48:50

And so my response would be primarily an exegetical one. And I hope maybe on my webcast, in fact,

48:59

I'll throw this out to you. I think what we should probably do is each one of us should select maybe three key passages and exchange them with each other and then go over those verse by verse exegetically on the program.

49:13

And that might be the best way, because honestly, I hold this position fully aware of the fact that it would be easier for me to hold other positions.

49:23

I mean, there are a lot of doors that are closed in my face because of this. But I honestly believe, and I know you believe this as well, but I honestly believe that the method of exegesis that I use to defend the deity of Christ against Sassinians like Anthony Buzzard, who was commenting on your website yesterday, or Greg Stafford, Jehovah's Witnesses, whatever it might be, the same method of hermeneutics and interpretation

49:48

I use there forces me to these conclusions. When I go through John chapter 6, I go through Ephesians 1, etc.,

49:54

etc. So that's really what my conviction is here. And I've heard you say the same thing in regards to if it's what the

50:02

Word says, then I must believe it. So that's why I really feel that, in my experience, getting into the

50:08

Word is the best way to deal with these issues. Yeah, and look, I was just talking to someone that was trying to help me to work with more different schools of higher learning to serve them in Jewish apologetics and Hebraic exegesis.

50:22

And they said, yeah, well, this one door would be closed to you because you're not Reformed unless you sign on the dotted line. You couldn't see. So, you know, it always goes both ways.

50:30

But, okay, back to just simple questions and answers. And, again, I'm perfectly happy if you say that there isn't a simple answer from your points.

50:38

I'm not trying to squeeze them. I'm just trying to get clarity. So next question that I was, again, asked to clarify, and I'll ask it and then give my brief answer.

50:48

Does God genuinely offer salvation to all men? I say absolutely yes.

50:54

When the Gospel message is preached, that there is the full offer and the full ability by God's grace and the full provision in the cross for that person to be saved.

51:03

It's a genuine and true offer, not a make -believe offer that's impossible to ever come to pass.

51:08

That when God commands all men everywhere to repent, it's based on the fact that He's given all men over to disobedience and that He can have mercy on them all, that Jesus truly is the ransom for all men, that truly

51:20

He's the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, that truly the grace of God's appeared to all men, that Jesus has tasted death for every man, etc.

51:28

So I believe it's a genuine and true offer that comes in keeping with God's desire.

51:34

Well, can I ask you to clarify one statement that you made? I think, and it was right toward the beginning, and I'm getting old, so I may have forgotten the specifics of it, but did you say that He has given to each one the same ability or capacity?

51:50

Right toward the beginning you said something along the lines of, does He give to each person the same,

51:56

I guess the term would be, prevenient grace? Yes. Thanks for asking for clarification. When the

52:02

Gospel comes to someone, there is an invitation from the Lord that is an enabling invitation. If faith comes through hearing the

52:09

Word of God, that Jesus has truly paid for their sins, and that person has a genuine opportunity by God's enabling grace to believe, to follow, to agree, to receive the gift, that there's a genuine opportunity, maybe that's the better word to use, for every human being to receive the gift of salvation when it's offered to them through the

52:29

Gospel. Okay. That would be something I think would be very good to discuss, because obviously from my perspective, what we're talking about here is a situation, and your specific question, again, you want me to answer briefly, was the genuineness of the offer, and I do not gauge the genuineness based upon my having knowledge of God's eternal decree.

52:51

The genuineness is this, any person who turns and believes in Jesus Christ will find

52:58

Him to be a perfect Savior. Any person, there has never been anyone who has turned in repentance and faith to Jesus Christ, who has been turned away by Him.

53:10

No Reformed person believes that anyone could turn in repentance and faith to Jesus Christ and not be saved by Him.

53:18

And that is the only way to judge, quote -unquote, genuineness, is that when I say to someone, repent and believe, and Jesus Christ will be your perfect Savior, that is a message that I can deliver to anyone, and have delivered to anyone, because I absolutely believe that.

53:39

Because this question really doesn't address the real issue, which seemingly is being raised along these lines, well, if Jesus didn't die for everyone, well,

53:47

I don't know who the elect are and neither does anyone else. And so we do not evangelize based upon knowledge of something that we do not possess.

53:55

We evangelize based upon the apostolic exhortation, I preach like the apostles, repent and believe in Jesus Christ, and you will find

54:02

Him to be a perfect Savior. Now, I just saw a website blasting me because I preach repent and believe.

54:08

So, again, we're in harmony on that, and we agree that repentance is not a work, etc.

54:16

But when I am looking at someone in sincerity and telling them the message, and they say, well,

54:22

I don't feel loved, I've never felt God love me, and I don't know if Jesus died for me,

54:29

I'd be able to say, God loves you, Jesus died, repent and believe. You couldn't tell them that part, though.

54:35

But see, the cost of that, first of all, if you could show me where the apostles responded as you just did, then

54:43

I would be able to go with you there. But you see, the cost at that point is not only am

54:49

I abandoning the apostolic proclamation of what it means to repent and believe, but you're also saying to an individual that Jesus' perfect life was given in your place.

55:02

However, that's not enough, because He did that for everybody.

55:08

And yet every person standing upon the parapets of hell and eternity to come will all be able to say that.

55:14

They'll all be able to say, I have invalidated the very work of the Son of God, because He gave

55:20

Himself specifically to save me, and He failed. He wasn't able to do it.

55:26

The price there strikes me as being way too high to pay, because we're leaving the apostolic proclamation.

55:35

Got it. All right. I'd say the apostolic proclamation is very much in line with what I declared, and is the message of God's love, which requires reception of His love.

55:44

Okay, we'll continue this, and then I've got one more question, and then we'll move on to further atonement issues.

55:49

Yes. Thanks for joining us. Welcome back, friends, to the Line of Fire. Michael Brown with my apologist colleague and today theological opponent,

55:57

Dr. James White. And we knew from the start, being on the air together, these broadcasts, taking a couple days, would scratch the surface, be introductory.

56:06

And the goal is we'll definitely exegete passages on Dr. White's broadcast. Yes, God willing.

56:12

I always say God willing. I see that as thoroughly scriptural. But I don't know why,

56:20

Michael. I mean, God may have willed it, but it's up to our free will, isn't it? We work together.

56:27

He may desire me to be on the radio with you, and I may stupidly choose not to and be held accountable.

56:33

But anyway, and then God willing, we'll sit down and do a public debate where we can get into this for some hours.

56:40

I think it would be enlightening and helpful. So I just want to respond really quickly to that last point.

56:46

I see the apostolic witness as, to you, the message of forgiveness of sins through Jesus is proclaimed.

56:52

Therefore, it's a genuine offer. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Certainly, as I'm hearing that as an individual,

57:01

I'm taking that as genuine, not duplicitous. That, well, it means one thing to one person there and not to another.

57:08

And God in his love has ordained things that he requires us to receive his gift, and there's the reciprocation.

57:15

But that would move us to the other point, then, which if I could be clear on.

57:22

The question of does God specifically predestine certain individuals to eternal destruction, that from day one that was his predetermined destiny, they are vessels for wrath, as some have quoted

57:37

Calvin saying, doomed from the womb for a certain death. And therefore, it could be your own child, could be your own spouse, that could be one of those prepared for destruction from before the foundation of the world.

57:51

So no prayer, no supplication, no crying out, nothing we could do could ever change that. That is the eternal destiny.

57:58

I absolutely do not believe the scriptures teach that. What is your view on that, sir?

58:03

Well, I can give you a yes or no on that, as long as I correct one thing, and that is it is very common for people to try to create an equal ultimacy in the extension of God's grace in predestining people into salvation, and then making that the exact same thing as some type of exercise that causes him to reprobate people.

58:25

I want to distinguish between those two, because obviously to save a sinner requires the extension of God's grace and mercy.

58:33

It's not just undeserved grace. It is demerited grace that is given to us.

58:39

We are rebel sinners. We are filthy in God's sight. We are worthy of judgment. And yet, in his love, he not only provides perfect salvation, but at the time that he is ordained by his spirit, he brings regeneration.

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He brings life. He unites us with Jesus Christ, and we experience salvation. So that's a very different thing than simply allowing a sinner to continue in their sin and to receive his just desserts.

59:02

But with that distinction made, then I can say very clearly, yes or no, yes,

59:08

God, from eternity past, according to the Westminster Confession of Faith, the London Baptist Confession of Faith, they all say the same thing.

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The number of the elect is absolutely fixed. God knows their identity. This is not only a surprise to God, but it flows from his purpose and his decree.

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It is not merely something that he discovers in creation. It is an expression of his purposes.

59:32

And that has a two -sided. You expressed the one side of it. That is, as a parent, one of my children could be one of those that God, in his justice, is going to pass over and bring under his wrath.

59:45

That is very true. But the other side that wasn't expressed is that one of those children could be an heir of eternal life.

59:54

And that means that there is no power in heaven or on earth that will stop the triune

01:00:00

God from glorifying himself in the salvation of that child. And as a result, that child will only be able to glorify

01:00:08

God, for as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1, it is of his doing that you are in Christ Jesus.

01:00:14

So that anyone who boasts, let him boast in the Lord. So that's the other side of that, is that we boast only in God, in that salvation.

01:00:22

Right, of course we boast only in the Lord. I've never once heard a testimony in my life where anyone did anything other than boast in the

01:00:31

Lord, his saving grace, his power. And as is often mentioned, when the jailer said, what must

01:00:36

I do to be saved, there was a response required. He couldn't then pat himself on the back. I did it!

01:00:42

Look at what I did! No, the Savior saves. We receive his gift by faith.

01:00:48

That's simple. So you embrace the fact, because you love the will of God, and whatever

01:00:53

God does is good, you embrace the fact that God and his sovereignty could potentially, here's a godly couple, they love the

01:01:01

Lord, they have every evidence in your view of being elect believers, they pray that God would give them a child, and they seek to raise this child in the fear of the

01:01:12

Lord and follow all the scriptural admonitions with promises from God, and yet it's possible they could do what

01:01:18

God required, they could set that child aside to the Lord, they could pray fast for that child, they could nurture them, teach them the ways of God, but that it could be

01:01:26

God's predetermined plan that that child was born ultimately for damnation, and that's something that we should embrace and rejoice in.

01:01:34

That child was born to glorify God in whatever God's purpose for that child is.

01:01:40

And even from your own perspective, they could do all of those things, and God could try and do his best to try to save that child, but if that child simply doesn't cooperate, that child cannot possibly be saved.

01:01:53

So I don't know how the raising in the fear and admonition of the Lord is an issue there, because obviously, yes, they can do that, but they're doing that out of obedience to Christ.

01:02:04

They're doing that out of obedience to God's revealed will. But they also know that in cooperation with that, that God will be doing certain things to bring that child to himself or herself, excuse me, to bring that child to himself, and that in doing those things, there's actually a process that's going on that God's at work at, as opposed to he's actually working against that process because he has destined that child for damnation.

01:02:28

But he doesn't have to work against any kind of process at all, because that's what I was saying, there's no equal ultimacy between the two.

01:02:35

But I just want to make sure people understand what you're saying. That process, however, God tries his best, but unless you're saying that all children of Christian parents are automatically saved,

01:02:45

I mean, ask David about whether children born in the covenant are necessarily automatically saved. Unless you're saying that, what are you saying?

01:02:53

From your perspective, are there not Godly children? I'm saying that that child has every opportunity to be saved, and that's all

01:03:00

I can ask for as a parent. As a parent, anything in life, I can't guarantee the future of that child, but I can guarantee that I will do certain things so that child will have an opportunity for an education, that child will have an opportunity to be loved, that child, more importantly, will have an opportunity to be introduced to God.

01:03:18

God could have set up a system where he makes everybody do certain things. He simply didn't, so that's his will.

01:03:23

But Michael, here's my question for you. I bow down to his will. Just one question, because I think this will clarify something. It sounds to me like you're saying

01:03:30

God is already giving a 100 % effort to save that child, right? Certainly.

01:03:37

Then why pray for him? Because that's how he set it up, that we are co -workers with him.

01:03:42

And that, like Spurgeon said, like it or not, asking is the law of the kingdom. So when I, as a

01:03:48

Calvinist, pray, I've had many Armenians say, well, why are you praying if God's already done this? I believe he's changing me in my prayer, but if God is already doing 100 % of his effort to save that child, what more can he do?

01:04:02

Okay, well, the 100 % of his effort is in conjunction with us, because that's how he set it up.

01:04:07

That's why Paul said we are fellow workers, we are fellow laborers with the Lord. He works with us and through us.

01:04:14

That's the way he set it up. I'm just following his system here. Anyway, we come back. You can take this up further if you want, or get over to the high priest.

01:04:22

Yeah, let's do that. Friends, join us. AskDrBrown .org. Click on the line of fire.

01:04:27

Get involved in the discussion there. Back with you shortly. Welcome back, friends, to the line of fire.

01:04:34

Michael Brown here with Dr. James White discussing Calvinism. He's taking calls tomorrow.

01:04:40

I just saw one chat room saying that someone sent me a note that Calvinists are supposed to flood the phone lines tomorrow on my show.

01:04:47

Please, please, please, please do. That would be my highest joy.

01:04:53

So tomorrow I'll reiterate again some of my own positions since I haven't written books on it or even done formal debate discussion before now with Dr.

01:05:02

White. Again, I remind folks that I was a staunch Calvinist from 77 to 82, saved in 71, staunch

01:05:09

Calvinist from 77 to 82. And my passion for the glory of God and love for the Word brought me out of Calvinism, the very things that Dr.

01:05:16

White would say affirm his Calvinism. James, do you want to move on to your – Yeah, that would be a good idea.

01:05:22

By the way, have you turned in your John Calvin card? I just want to make sure you're not trying to use that to get in places and things like that.

01:05:29

You need to send it back. No, it got rescinded, actually. Oh, okay. We took it back already.

01:05:35

All right. Yeah, it got rescinded with scorns and mockery that I've abandoned the orthodoxy.

01:05:40

Let me just say one thing, though. I got to get this off my chest. I would think that Calvinism would produce a deep humility.

01:05:47

And that someone blogs saying that that's what it should do. I run into so many people that have this arrogant thing that they have the truth, and they look down their noses, scorning everyone.

01:05:59

It doesn't hold to, quote, reform doctrine. I can't figure out where that comes from. It's the opposite to me of what

01:06:05

I would have expected. And I run into it so often. I mean, it's rare that I don't run into it. Even if the show's going on and someone just copied me, discussion where it's the same kind of thing.

01:06:14

We have arrived. We have the truth. And you idiot Armenians, you hardly even say it. Did you ever see the

01:06:22

Banner of Truth publication called The Practical Implications of Calvinism by Albert Martin? I saw it, but I didn't read it.

01:06:29

I had a nice Banner of Truth library. I still do, actually. Yeah, I would highly recommend it to anyone because you're exactly right.

01:06:38

That is inconsistent. But I also, of course, encounter many

01:06:44

Armenians who, on their side of things, identify my god as a foreign god and a monster and all the rest of these things.

01:06:54

So I don't know if that's, you know, I do see that, and I think any reform folks in the audience who are serious.

01:07:01

And, Michael, I think we should point out, there's a difference between holding to five points and living consistently with reformed theology.

01:07:10

A church that is impacted by reformed theology is going to impact everything, the worship, the preaching, how everything is done.

01:07:17

And so I'm not going to claim that my reformed brethren are all perfect, and we have differences between each other, but we all want to look to the

01:07:27

Word of God as the final authority in these things. Yeah, and amen to the fact that there are issues on both sides.

01:07:33

The reason I raise it is because I'm constantly hearing how it deeply humbles someone, and then

01:07:39

I run into this, we -have -arrived arrogance, you know, the same kind of thing when I talk to an atheist. You know, we know better, and kind of looking down their noses.

01:07:47

So it does hit from both ways. We can only call on people to be genuine disciples, and if Jesus is truly

01:07:53

Lord, then there's nothing in us except to bow down at his feet and worship him.

01:08:00

But we're obviously racing against time here, but I know there was a point you wanted to make.

01:08:06

If you can develop it in a couple minutes, we can get it in, and I'll give a brief response before we're done today. Well, very, very quickly,

01:08:11

I wanted to present the idea, since I had heard people talking about, quote, unquote, limited atonement when they called your program earlier.

01:08:19

I think one of the strongest biblical reasons why I hold the particular redeeming work of Jesus Christ is because of the book of Hebrews.

01:08:26

In the book of Hebrews, a book that is closed to so many evangelicals today because they have no idea what its background is.

01:08:33

They don't spend any time in the Tanakh to be able to know why the argument is being made the way they are.

01:08:40

In that book, we have the presentation of Jesus, not only as the one who gives himself ephipox one time as the sacrifice for sins, but he is also the high priest.

01:08:53

And as we know, the high priest, when he would offer the atonement on the day of covering

01:08:58

Yom Kippur, he would enter into the holiest place with that blood of the sacrifice, and he would kaffar, he would cover that seat, that place of halasmas, of atonement of covering.

01:09:11

And with that blood, it was one act. No high priest would ever give the atonement and stop there because the work was not finished at that point.

01:09:23

There was a presentation. It's all one work, which the high priest does. And so, because of that, the book of Hebrews tells us that when

01:09:30

Jesus entered into the holy place, he had obtained eternal salvation. He had not merely made eternal salvation a mere possibility.

01:09:36

He had obtained eternal salvation. And Hebrews chapter 10 tells us that he perfects those for whom this offering has been made.

01:09:45

And so, when people make the presentation that Jesus gave himself in a universal sense, but then when he enters in, he does not intercede for all those for whom he's made,

01:09:59

I see a contrast there, but I hear the music. Maybe you can pick it up on the other side. All right, yeah, and then we'll have to be brief.

01:10:04

I'll give a brief response to that. Thanks for being with us, friend. All right, we are almost out of time again.

01:10:13

A delightful James White as we get to press these issues. And hopefully in further dialogue, we'll question about more.

01:10:20

And for me, James, the building block for exegesis is philology. That's where my primary training is.

01:10:26

And I wouldn't even see how far it's covered, but that's another subject. I can send you an article I wrote on that in a best script for Professor Bartholomew.

01:10:35

What would you see it as? It means to expiate. It doesn't mean to cover.

01:10:41

It means to expiate the tone. It can also have a Persian meaning. But anyway, that was just a minor footnote because I'd written on it, and I know you love detailed exegesis.

01:10:53

But that didn't impact your overall point. Take about 30 seconds more just to… In 30 seconds, all

01:10:59

I want to try to say is I believe that I can make a very strong point in the book of Hebrews that there is a direct relationship between the atoning work of Christ and the interceding work of Christ.

01:11:09

And the question I simply ask of anyone in the audience, is the son interceding before the father for every single human being who has ever lived?

01:11:17

The Amorites, Pharaoh's army, is he interceding before the father, pleading his finished sacrifice before the father for those individuals?

01:11:27

If he is not, then there has to be a unanimity, a consistency, a harmony between the audience for whom he dies and for whom he intercedes.

01:11:35

That's all. Great. Well, thanks. So let me just give a quick thought on that response to that, and then

01:11:41

God willing, we can pick things up. Remember, Dr. White's debate on purgatory tomorrow. Go to his website,

01:11:47

AOMIN .org. There's also a link on our website where you can get over there.

01:11:53

And let's be praying for his trip to London and for great fruit as he speaks the word of truth to Muslims.

01:11:58

And James, let me say this before I give my quick response here. Even though I have profound differences,

01:12:05

I deeply admire the consistency of your commitment and the ultimate faith you have in God, period, that he is

01:12:11

God, and no questions asked. Doesn't matter what questions remain, he's God, you bow down.

01:12:16

I honor that in the midst of our differences. Thank you. I just want to say that. So when I look at the high priest in the ministry of Jesus, I go back, of course, to Leviticus and notice that the priests worked a perfect atonement for the nation.

01:12:31

Leviticus 16. But when we get to Leviticus 23, there are specific requirements for the people, and if they do not participate in that day, if they don't deny themselves, if they work, then they're cut off.

01:12:43

And that perfect atonement for the nation, I say perfect in terms of it accomplished its goal for that year, that it was of no avail, even though everything was done just according to the book, and the high priest would intercede, et cetera, that there is always the cooperation.

01:12:58

God could have done it another way, but what he loves is reciprocation. His plan from before the foundation of the world was to have a people that loved him, that received his gift, that would be with him forever and ever.

01:13:11

And Jesus continues to intercede for those that have come to faith. He continues to intercede for those that have not come, because that's the genuine offer of the gospel that we bring.

01:13:21

But again, let's, God willing, and here's why I say God willing, because I don't know that I'll live tomorrow.

01:13:26

Some things are in my hands, and some are not. I think you'll agree with that on some level. But we'll pick the text.

01:13:33

I'm sure John 6, 37 to 40 will be one of those you throw my way, Romans 9. But we'll pick the text.

01:13:39

We'll do what we love to do, dig in the Word, examine, cross -examine each other. And when

01:13:44

I prayed before these shows, James, I was on my knees saying, God, be glorified through these shows, and let your truth go out to the body.

01:13:52

And because I know you're articulate, clear -headed, and have devoted so much time and effort to this. Well, Michael, I think we've set a standard.