Give Me Jesus, Not Self-Improvement (w/ Chris Gordon) | Theocast

Hi, this is Justin.

John and I recently took a trip to California and were invited by Chris Gordon, who is the host of Abound

in Grace Radio and also the pastor of Escondido United Reformed Church to spend some time together and do some recording.

And so the content of this episode is the first part of that lively and enjoyable conversation.

We cover the topic of preaching Christ, particularly over and against, a different kind of preaching that tends

to overemphasize application and even self -improvement.

We talk about what matters most in a church and finding a church where you can get the goods every Lord's day.

We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Stay tuned.

If you'd like to help support Theocast, you can do that by leaving us a review on iTunes and subscribing on your favorite

podcast app.

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Plus, we have a Facebook group if you'd like to join the conversation there.

Thanks for listening.

Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

Conversations about the Christian life from a Reformed pastoral and covenantal and confessional and all

kinds of

All that.

Hey, this is what we're trying to do.

We're trying to clarify the gospel.

We're just trying to make this intro even more wordy.

Clarify the gospel and reclaim the purpose of the kingdom.

And that's definitely what's gonna happen.

Because we're not clarifying this intro, amen?

That's right.

Your hosts today are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in the beautiful state of North Carolina,

specifically Asheville.

And I am John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

And Justin and I recently took a trip to California.

And part of that trip, we got to, as you already heard in the intro, we got to spend some time with Chris Gordon.

And man, was that enjoyable.

I mean, we spent a lot of time just before that we even sat down to record, just getting to know each other.

And it's so refreshing, as I'm sure, Justin, you can say, that to be around a brother who loves the gospel, who

loves ministry, who's excited about preaching Christ, it is so refreshing

just to sit there and just learn and receive and soak in.

And we got the opportunity to go to his church, hear him preach, take the Lord's communion.

And so anyways, it was a really good trip.

Yeah, we knew of Chris and of Abound in Grace Radio, but we didn't know him personally.

And there are good things that do happen on social media in our day.

And so Chris saw on social media that John and I were headed out to California for the Westminster Conference and to do

some other events and things.

And he hit us up and was like, we should definitely connect while you guys are out here.

And we are really glad we did.

Like you said, definitely feel like we have met a good friend and just a like -minded brother in Chris.

Had a great time hanging out with him at a couple of different points during the trip and really had a blast recording with him.

We spent like two hours talking about a number of different topics in his office on a Sunday afternoon.

We had a lot of laughs, a lot of brotherhood and fellowship in the gospel.

I know those are like really Christian -y words.

I apologize for that.

But man, just a good time.

I mean, my soul was encouraged, you know, and I felt bolstered in the faith and thankful

to have been able to talk about this stuff we talked about with Chris.

So look forward to doing more with him.

Down the road potentially.

Yeah, for sure.

We definitely would love to do some more recordings.

Anyway, so stay tuned.

This first episode is lively.

It's fun.

A lot of laughing, a lot of gospel.

So, and we've got some more comments for you at the end of the episode.

So we'll see you guys there.

Enjoy.

All right.

Well, thanks for tuning into the program today.

It's always great to have our listeners listen to Abounding Grace Radio.

And today we are in studio with some dear friends of mine.

It hasn't been long time friends,.

But now I feel like I've known you guys.

I've been following you for a while, so that counts.

Well, that's true.

I've been following you guys too.

It's like we'd never talked.

And these guys were coming to the Westminster Conference here in Escondido, and they put it

on Twitter.

Like, you know, we got to tell everyone where we're going.

That's what we do, right?

Obviously, in today's day.

So I reached out.

When you're going to Mecca, I mean, that's right.

This is the Mecca of the reformed world.

Escondido is the place.

That's right.

I think it means hidden.

So you got to find it.

In some language, yeah.

So anyways, I reached out to you guys and I said, listen, we got to meet, we got to connect.

And I would love to do a program with you.

So what this kind of is today, maybe we should introduce ourselves.

I'm Chris Gordon, and you are, across from me,.

Justin Perdue.

And John Moffitt.

And we should, you know, we should do this.

John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

Yeah.

I'm Chris Gordon, pastor of the Escondido, Escondido United Reformed Church.

The Escondido.

And I'm Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

There you go.

Two Baptists.

And a Reformed guy.

Reformed guy.

Walk into a dope study and have a conversation.

That's true.

We do have to talk about the study a little later on that we have to talk about these things.

I'm good.

And we'll talk about the 10th commandment.

Yeah, I'm free game.

Whatever you guys really, so we kind of tried to decide here whose turf we're on.

And I was like, this is neutral.

We're just gonna like banner back and forth subjects and you guys will do with it what you do on your excellent

program, by the way.

Excellent program.

I give it props and say, you guys are just fabulous.

I think you guys are necessary today in so many ways to talk.

And that program is called Theocast.

Yes.

Is that what it's called?

Yes. Shameless.

In case people don't know, it's like, which program are you referring to?

Well, you know, you were just in worship here in Escondido and I saw like all my people running up to you.

So obviously you get listened to largely and widely out there.

So that's great.

I mean, you guys are doing, you're doing wonderful, classic reform stuff.

And we'll talk maybe about the Baptist stuff a little later.

But I mean, it's great.

I'm really thankful for what you guys are doing and your commitment to it, to confessional reform

doctrine in a day where, you know, people would say that just doesn't work anymore.

Make confessionalism great again.

That's right.

Yeah, exactly.

So anyways, where do we begin?

Where do you wanna begin?

Well, I mean, we just heard an amazing gospel sermon where Christ was extolled.

I'd say we start with the preaching.

Wanna talk about preaching?

Yeah, let's do it.

Let's talk about what is that?

What is preaching?

Yeah, well, it was, so obviously we had lunch with you guys today and another great pastor.

And it's interesting when you get around men who love Christ and know what preaching is for,

it's refreshing.

One of the things that I do at our church, because we have so many evangelicals and just people from broad perspectives that ends up coming in,

I always ask them this question in membership class, what's the difference between preaching and teaching?

And people don't really know.

They don't.

No, and so sometimes people come into my Sunday morning service or our Sunday morning service and

they're expecting teaching because that's what they've kind of been around.

Like really.

And we'll talk about evangelicalism later.

Yeah, but they're expecting a running commentary and teaching aids.

And so they want outlines and things like that.

And I said, no, actually the purpose of preaching is to give you Christ and to persuade you that Christ

is sufficient from all of scripture.

Amen.

I might start by saying, we're called to preach the law and the gospel.

We'll talk more about the law and the gospel later.

But if in a word, man, that we should seek as preachers of the word to extol the

excellencies of Christ and give him his person, his work to the saints.

And even in application, this is something we can maybe riff on later.

Cause I hail from a world where application is King.

Sometimes.

Yeah. Right.

And it's still my world too.

Okay.

And we wish one application.

Right.

And there are pastors all over the place that I think in ways that are really

heavy burdens to bear in sermon preparation are agonizing our application.

Right.

And we're all for application.

Yeah.

But the first primary great application of any text is to apply Christ

and the gospel to the hearts and minds of the saints.

Right. Right.

And the applications, they flow.

First off, they flow out of the text.

That's right.

Oftentimes, what we have are guys coming up and trying to be creative.

I mean, I'm sure you guys have talked about this a million times with the step stuff and trying to figure out how best to reach the people.

It's not, I think this is what Paul's talking about when he talks in first Timothy about, the preaching is

done in Corinthians and the demonstration of the spirit and power.

There's no power in a certain kind of ministry today.

And I even think it gets down even to what we were talking about, what is preaching?

I mean, is it just a chatty discourse, a chatty talk of a guy getting up,

patting you on the back, strolling around on the stage, trying to make life good for you?

Is that really what preaching is?

I feel like I've said these things, you guys, so many years now.

Yeah.

I mean, I would think, okay, this is all figured out, but it's not.

No.

It's just not, right?

So it comes with like, preaching itself is a proclamation, right?

And it has an authority behind it.

We can talk about like how far people abuse authority.

I mean, that happens, and we can talk about certain figures.

But there is a sense of, this guy's really bringing me, bringing me something

from the text that I need to know and hear, especially about salvation, about Christ, about gospel, about

good news, right?

Exactly, and it's news that is to be received, to be trusted, believed, rested in.

I think in most evangelical churches, when they show up, they don't believe there's something supernatural happening, that the spirit

is coming and is using the power of his word to convict, to console, to cleanse,

to create within us a new heart, to bring to us a fresh anew of his

grace and his kindness and his mercy.

So when people hear sermons, they're thinking, give me a TED Talk, you know?

They wouldn't say entertain me, that's not, that's unspiritual, but give me a nugget, teach me, lead me in that

direction.

As far as like when Justin and I were sitting there this morning as pastors, we don't often get to sit and just be a congregant.

You know, we do, but we still have to minister because those are the sheep to which we care for.

We're elders in our congregation.

But today was so refreshing because I sat down going, I am going to be fed.

And I saw you stay awake, so it was a good thing.

We were happy to be here, and we often don't think in these terms either that we are receiving the

Lord Jesus Christ in the word, in the proclamation of the word.

And our faith, as we have Christ heralded to us, is the, like we heard today, the hope of the new heavens and the

new earth, heralded to us and the comfort of that and the certainty of that

because of what Christ has accomplished for us.

It's all about what he did, it's not about what we do.

When we hear those things, our faith is sustained and confirmed and strengthened.

So if I can, 1 John 5, 13.

Yeah.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John Calvin, in his commentary on 1 John, on this verse, he says, notice,

though, how disciples are confirmed in the faith.

It is through having the office and the power of Christ explained.

That's right.

And then he says that it is, he goes on later in the paragraph to say, that it is therefore the duty of any

godly minister to extol as much as possible the grace of Christ so that being

satisfied in that, we might look to nothing else.

Yeah, you know, and that ties into John 20 when he's commissioning, basically

the mini commission.

It's not really a mini, but it's anticipating the sort of great commission.

But in John 20, he speaks of the coming of the spirit, but then he says, you know, you go out, what is Jesus

focusing on and telling the disciples to emphasize?

It's the forgiveness of sins.

Yes.

So, you know, Calvin on that verse says something really powerful.

He says, many things are undoubtedly contained in the gospel.

So there are many things we could talk about when we talk about the gospel, but the primary objective,

which the ministry of the gospel is intended to achieve, is the forgiveness of sins.

And then he goes on and says, if we want to be faithful ministers of the gospel, we must give our most

earnest attention to this subject.

All heathen philosophy talks about how to improve you.

Yes.

And he says, but this is what makes Christian ministry and preaching unique,

is that the particular goal and aim of the forgiveness of sins.

And I'm sure you guys have gone through Acts.

I mean, it is amazing how focused these guys are amidst

persecution, political problems, you know, don't preach it.

They are so intent on staying focused on the ministry of preaching the gospel.

That's right.

They're in a hostile world.

That's right.

They're preaching the person and the work of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, like you just said.

Yeah.

Very interesting.

They're not really speaking to the social and political situation.

Yeah, I'll throw in a little hot of a hot topic.

I think we had made this comment earlier today, or I may have leaned over and said something to you, but when we're talking about the

sufficiency of Christ and knowing who Christ is and the person work of Christ,

when we think about something like the chosen, I've heard so many people tell me, oh, I've just learned and I've been able to engage.

And there's just like this personal connection there.

What you're telling me is that the scripture is lacking something that you have to get outside of scripture to

know who Christ is.

Yeah.

And that's dangerous.

Yeah, we've seen these phenomenons all throughout.

I mean, I think I'm a little bit older than you guys, but I'm

at least grayer.

So I don't know if that means wisdom or not, but.

Today we'll say it is.

Yeah.

But I mean, just think, remember what they did to the passion of Christ.

Remember how that was celebrated as like the greatest evangelistic tool ever.

We stood back and say, well, if that's true, where is it today?

That's right.

It just didn't, it didn't endure.

Where's your purpose -driven life today?

Where's the prayer of J -Bez today?

We have all these gimmicks.

We got all this stuff that comes and goes and we should have learned our lesson by now.

So like, we've already critiqued this stuff, but the newest thing comes.

That's right.

But I was preaching through Hebrews 1 and that's where you guys landed today in Hebrews 11.

But when I started, I titled my sermon in Hebrews 1, Jesus still speaks today.

Yeah.

How so?

You're right.

It's like when Paul.

You're right.

Yeah, yeah.

When Paul was saying, you know, Jesus came and he preached to you, that's a shocking statement when he's talking about that

in the epistles.

He's preaching to us through the minister, the ambassador, that he sent to make known the gospel

to you.

He is still speaking to you.

The question is, what are you looking for?

Right.

That's right.

Are you looking, whose voice are you looking to hear?

That's right.

Right?

Yeah. Go ahead.

I was gonna say, in a second, Peter, Peter blatantly says everything that you need to know about

God and about how to live for God has been given to you.

There's nothing outside of this that you need.

And that's, we hear that and we're like, yeah, yeah, that's nice.

But we don't really believe that.

I'll just say this.

Peter and Paul are very clear, and even James, they're very clear to say Satan has tactics.

And this is gonna sound brutal, but I don't care, I'm gonna say it anyways.

Things like the passion and chosen and the purpose -driven life.

What makes a good lie a good lie?

It's 99 % true.

There's enough truth in it.

Absolutely.

It's truth mixed with error so that it gains traction amongst the faithful.

That's right.

So, wow, that sounds right, that sounds right.

And so he doesn't need you to deny God.

He doesn't, he just needs you to believe something that's a little bit off.

And obviously I love golf, but if a putt, a 20 -foot putt is just a centimeter off, it'll end

up 20 feet in the wrong direction.

And that's, what happens a lot of times is men who are trying to bring people back to the Word, we can

sound like we're crazy.

Come on, guys, back off a little bit.

Are you kidding me?

The Passion of the Christ was this amazing movie.

It's done, it's so good.

Mel Gibson's doing a follow -up.

I don't know if you guys know that.

Yeah, I just saw that, I just saw that.

I did not know that.

Yes, yeah.

He's doing a follow -up.

We're gonna get to do the critique again.

Can you believe this?

Yeah, anyways, go ahead.

Yeah, you know, we used to say in the old tradition, that the minister who comes is

the Vox Dei, the voice of God.

And I know that's been abused, right?

I know we've got some.

People are like, that's Roman Catholic, but I couldn't agree with you more.

Yeah, I mean, when a man, how beautiful are the feet of those who are sent?

You know, not everyone's sent.

Here's another thing you gotta say today.

I remember the ministry sign on the church years ago, pastor, and said, everyone.

This is another problem that we deal with today because what we've done is marginalized what is absolutely happening

when the minister stands up there and he proclaims the word of God.

And any sort of reformation throughout history where we ever see a great recovery in the church where there is

real spirituality, real response, it's always been because the pulpit was put back up, not taken

down for a plexiglass or a stage.

That's always been, I mean, this is Nehemiah 8, right?

And this is what, I mean, today, this is, isn't it crazy?

Can you have the famine in the land and have the word of God in your hand?

You know, is there a famine of the hearing of the word today?

You know, it's a crazy time we live, but we've gotta continue to emphasize this to the next generation.

The preaching of the gospel, Calvin used to say so clearly, the preaching of the gospel where Christ

is preached, there is the true church.

That's right.

Amen.

I'm preaching through Romans right now.

And Paul's introduction to that letter is pretty epic.

The way he begins it, talking about he's been set apart as an apostle for the sake of

God's gospel.

And he says it's God's gospel, which he promised beforehand through the prophets and the holy scriptures

concerning his son.

So the gospel concerns the son who descended from David according to the flesh, who's declared to be the son of God in

power, right?

By the spirit at his resurrection, Jesus Christ our Lord.

And he says, so, you know, we preach him, right?

To bring about the obedience of faith throughout the nations for the sake of Christ's name.

Then he goes on to say how much he longs to be with the Roman Christians.

And then right there at the end, before he gets to that thesis statement that we all know so well in 1 .16 and 17, what does

he say?

He longs to come and preach the gospel.

That's right.

This is something for, I know for us that we've, this may be a little bit different for you, Chris, in your context, but maybe not.

Something we've had to talk about a lot over the years, speaking to evangelicals.

I think a lot of people in evangelical churches assume that the gospel must be proclaimed for the

sake of the non -believer who's in our midst.

And for the Christians amongst us, right?

We need to get about the business of preaching the Christian life and how to be more godly,

how to maybe in some cases improve ourselves, whatever.

But for us, like, look, no, the saints, week in and week out, need Christ heralded to them

because we're bombarded by a million things during the week.

The world preaches a different word.

The enemy accuses and preaches a different word.

Our conscience, our flesh, all preach a different word.

And we need to come and hear Christ for us on the Lord's day.

And I know for our podcast, that's been something that we've talked about a lot over the years because,

again, the assumption is something else that, oh yeah, we've got the, of course the gospel, of course Jesus, but it's kind of a

footnote, right?

It would assume that, I mean, if that were the case, if that was the intention and design of ministry, it would say something

like, you know, the gospel's the power of God for conversion.

That's right.

You know, it's like, and then that would be the end of the story, and then we would have to go do what the evangelicals are doing, just

talk application the whole time.

But, you know, that's not what the calling is.

The gospel's the power for the whole of the Christian life.

Well, even in 2 Peter, he says the reason you're not obeying is you forgot the gospel.

I would challenge you.

And the reason you're ineffective is because you have forgotten that you've been cleansed from your former sins.

Yeah, I mean, even when Paul says in Ephesians 4, walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, that's a reference to the gospel, the first three

chapters of Ephesians.

I would challenge anybody, the New Testament epistles were written to be read to the congregations, to be preached to

the congregation.

I challenge you to read a New Testament epistle where the gospel really isn't either began or in its, before it

reaches halfway point.

Even in the book of James, because some people are like, well, yeah, what about James?

James actually references the gospel quite often.

I just preached to that book.

And so it's amazing to me if a man can get up and preach the word, and if it doesn't

result in leading them to Christ's sufficiency in the gospel, I don't think you preached a sermon according to the New

Testament.

You haven't preached the Christian one.

No, it's like sermon, like Spurgeon says, go home, preacher, and come back until you are ready to preach Christ.

So you have something worth saying.

Right, and I'm gonna make a little bit of a shift here, but when you think about this, guys, a lot of our listeners on both

podcasts will hear this, and they're like, yeah, but I'm in a Bible church, or I'm in a whatever kind of church.

And there's despair.

Like, they hear us, and they're like, we agree, we agree, we agree.

But they're in despair, because they're not, either can't find a church that's like this,

or they, you know, I feel this, because we get contacted a lot of times, like, guys, I agree with what you're saying,

but what do I do?

My pastor doesn't preach like that.

And to me, it's disheartening.

And I just wanna stop for anybody that's hearing this, and they're like extremely frustrated.

I wanna be sympathetic to that and say, listen, we understand.

Part of the reason for this podcast is to hopefully spark pastors, to encourage them to trust the

sufficiency of preaching and the sufficiency of the gospel.

If you're new to Theocast, we have a free ebook available for you called Faith Versus Faithfulness, A Primer on

Rest.

And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone,

we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a Reformed confessional perspective.

You can get your free copy at theocast .org slash primer.

Yeah, and I think, I mean, you raise a really good point, John.

It's, you know, the question is, is motivations for why we do what we do.

And there are a lot of people who indeed are in situations where, you know, and

that leads to that important question, which maybe we can circle back around to, you know, when is it the right time to move on?

When's the right time to leave your church?

When's the wrong time?

Those are always important questions.

When I did the Ligonier Conference, it was amazing how that question, even in the question and answer period, came up.

It still is a big burden for you.

We get it a lot.

Right, it's just a big burden.

But I see the, you know, it's interesting.

Maybe this reflects our different traditions, you know.

I would say I'm probably in the more established Reformed tradition.

What I see frequently, and I see everything in Southern California.

I see what you just said.

It's Southern California, you know.

Melting pot.

Yeah, where do I start?

So, you know, I see that.

I see, but what I also see is another sad phenomenon.

It's like what the prophet said years ago.

The prophets prophesy lies.

The priests rule by their own authority and my people love it.

In other words, there are a lot of people who will listen to this podcast and say amen.

Amen, you guys are right on.

Amen, and they'll go back.

That's right.

To sit under something that is not only harmful for them, but harmful for their children.

That's right.

And the question is, is why?

Because they have a great children's ministry and an amazing band, sorry.

Yeah, and I think that's exactly right.

I mean, there's pressure.

Usually couples aren't united on these things.

And you know, you gotta walk carefully that together.

But I also think there's other issues that have to do with tradition, culture, family,

that as Jesus constantly dealt with.

You know, take up your cross and follow.

What does that look like in the context of church?

It looks like finding a church where you lead your family to the waters of life.

That's right.

And there are situations where we're not willing to do that because we're afraid of offending family or culture.

Or you know, this is my church building I was baptized in or this has always been

this way for me.

And it's, I mean, we could just go through a load of issues.

I think that is more common than we realize.

No, I would agree.

You know?

Yeah.

And then on top of that, then there's the challenge of the person weeping.

Sure.

Saying, where am I gonna go?

That's right.

Sure, you know?

So let's continue the preaching conversation.

But I'd love to talk about Christ -centered preaching.

Yeah.

Or preaching Christ from all of the Bible.

Yeah, before you do that, I just have one comment I wanna jump on that.

Please, John.

And then.

Jump, jump all over it.

Yeah, one of the, if you couldn't feed your family physically, are you gonna just sit there and

complain about it?

You would be worse than an infidel because the Bible calls you to provide for your family.

So you're gonna probably end up moving to a nearby city or a place that you know you can provide for your family.

You can find gainful employment.

Why is it different for the spiritual nourishment of your soul?

And I would say it's actually more important for you to take a pay cut

and degrade if you need to to make sure that the spiritual nourishment of your family is cared for.

I think it's upon us to train people for that way.

I'll just say this.

I was a college pastor for 10 years and I had students graduating and I told them, don't take a job unless you know

there's a church there.

Exactly.

And that was one of the things I really tried to help them understand.

Because it doesn't matter how good the pay is if you don't have a community there for your soul.

And, you know, I wanna get to Justin's.

No, we got plenty of time.

We gotta stay on that.

I know, you guys.

We're kicking it for the afternoon, man.

Just stay for a while.

Stay in Escondido.

Anyways.

The water's nice, right?

Come on.

But then we've got the other problem of what I see is the flight today to Idaho

or whatever it might be, you know, and on their minds are, you know, the politics are bad, you

know, this and that.

I'm gonna go get some space, get some land and be free, you know, and whoa.

Because clearly Christians have to homestead.

So this is just common where we deal with this, especially in California, you know, have people really thought through that question,

you know, from both ends of the spectrum.

What is most important where I am and where I'm going is, you know, and we deal with this

constantly.

Is that great question, is there a church there that's gonna minister?

Well, have we even thought about that?

Is that first and foremost on people's minds?

That's right.

You know?

And while we're on this topic, I agree with John.

We understand that when we tell people, in your calculus, in terms of where you're gonna live,

in your calculus, at the top of that, it needs to be that you have a church that preaches Christ.

Yeah.

Right, where you're gonna receive Christ.

We understand that that's difficult for people to hear sometimes, and it's not just that simple for people to pick up and move and things,

and we're sympathetic.

Yeah.

And at the same time, we stand by what we're saying here, and I think we all can testify to the

value of having a local church where we do receive Christ and word and sacrament week after week after

week, and if you're missing that, it's a big deal.

I tell people often, so we are confessional Baptists, we'll get to that later, I tell people a lot,

the thing to look for in a church is what is the church's message?

And by that, I don't mean the sermon itself, but what is the church's message?

What is the message that permeates every aspect of that church?

And if that message is Christ, his sufficiency, his person, his word, Christ for you,

and you're gonna receive him in word and sacrament, that's a church worth going to and being a part of.

That is the most important thing by Miles.

So as a confessional Baptist, in the city where I am, if our church did not

exist, I would be at a PCA church or I would be at potentially a

confessional Lutheran church.

Yeah, you're at a PCA, you mean PCA church because there's a good one in town.

That's what I'm saying, because there aren't other Baptistic works in the city, where I'm gonna feel like we're gonna go

here and my wife and my children are gonna get the goods every week, and myself as well.

But this is where the most important thing to me for people out there is find a church where you're gonna get this

message.

Live as sojourners, live as one who's traveling through.

Right, so let's talk about preaching Jesus, shall we?

From all the Bible?

I mean, what's the purpose of church if we're not doing that?

We all agree we should do that, right?

Okay, yeah, but yeah, let's talk about that.

What is that?

I'm just kidding around, I'm bantering.

I've never found an evangelical who would disagree with that.

Chris, welcome to Theocash.

Welcome to the band.

Welcome to Theocash.

No, it's Bounding Grace Radio, sorry.

Yeah, yeah.

How would you put that together?

It's neutral, Chris.

What happened to neutrality?

It's neutral, it's neutral.

Are you kidding?

A bounding cast.

We've been doing the same stuff.

I just was a little earlier than you, I think.

And then I got tired, I got gray.

You guys are young and energetic.

Oh my goodness.

You're not that much older than me.

I've got a lot of gray hair here.

I think you got me like two years.

I got like four on you, I think.

I'm 41.

I'm 45.

Okay, you got four on me.

You're so much wiser.

Okay, all right, I'll kick this off.

When you say, if you were to walk up to any preacher on the planet, and you would say, we need to preach

Christ, what are they gonna say?

Of course.

Agree.

Yeah, of course.

What does that mean?

What does it mean?

That's where we're at.

Okay, so we're gonna talk here about preaching Christ from all the Bible, and inevitably, in

a minute, I'm assuming we're gonna get into the law and the gospel.

Absolutely.

And I wanna give one advertisement here, and I'll say this again.

If churches are not preaching Christ the way we're about to talk about it, you have lifeless,

powerless churches.

Oh my goodness, mic drop.

All right, I'll go ahead and lead with this.

I'd go stronger, but okay.

They're not a church is what you're gonna say, right?

They're not a church at all.

I'm gonna lead with this, though, because this is at least something that I have experienced from, I don't know,

in the past, my background, where I hail from, right?

So you get a lot of guys that champion Christ -centered preaching, and what they

have been trained to do, and what they do is they get into the pulpit.

First of all, it begins in the study, right?

They're serious about their preparation.

They're working hard.

They're diligent, conscientious.

That's all good.

And they're mining the text for things, original authorial intent, all of this kind of stuff.

They're concerned with these things, and none of these things are inherently bad.

I mean, don't hear us say that.

Don't hear what we're not saying, right?

But then what we get in the pulpit often is a lot of good things said about the

passage, a number of good things maybe said in the realm of wisdom and prudence, and then

somewhere in the sermon, because we want to be gospel -centered, we want to be Christ -centered, we slip in the

plan of salvation, or some form of the meta -narrative, like plan of salvation being this, maybe like a

God -man -Christ response formula, or we get the meta -narrative.

We get creation, fall, redemption, consummation, or restoration, however you want to phrase it, and we think that we've

preached Christ, and respectfully, I would just say, brother, no, you have not done that.

I think, for me, I've said this in a number of contexts, we'll say it today and see what you guys think.

In sermon preparation for me, the question that I'm gonna ask, regardless of which of the 66 books I'm

in, is where does this text stand in relation to Christ?

Because a lot of guys ask, how can I preach Christ from this text?

Wrong question.

Where does this text stand in relation to Jesus?

Better question.

Because then we're gonna be preparing and preaching the entire message through the lens of Christ.

That's right.

And we've got a chance.

It's not hokey and weird, and it's like the Bible's a where's Waldo book, and Jesus is Waldo.

That's not how we do this.

It's like giving a eulogy of a person, and talking about something that happened within their life, but

never actually connecting it to the purpose of that person's life.

We're here to talk about this person, and you talked about this Dodgers game, and what the score was, and who hit the

home run, but why was that relevant to this person's eulogy?

Yeah.

I mean, that's similar to what happened.

We saw churches canceling.

Church landed on Christmas on Sunday, right?

That's our day of worship, right?

That's right.

That's the Lord's day.

They're canceling.

It's like missing the birthday party.

You know?

What in the world?

We're gonna celebrate Christ by not celebrating Christ.

By not celebrating Christ.

You know, it shows the hypocrisy.

I think, you know, I know this seems so basic, and maybe I've just gone over it,

you know, and maybe I should say up front, in light of what you guys are saying.

I think there might be a reaction against a sort of

stereotypical, or a straw man, maybe even straw man,

presentation of Christ -centered preaching, but it may not even be straw man.

It may be that this is what some have done, and have done great damage to

it, by saying, you know, they preach the law, and then at the end of the sermon, but you can't do

it.

Jesus did it all.

It's first use of the law only.

Yeah, and I think it's just something to be aware of up front.

I've had to deal with this with training of seminary students.

They want so, so desperately to preach Christ, and then you get this sort of artificial

formula that comes out.

And this artificial formula triggers people, and then you get, you know, pastors who are more of the

legal persuasion, who, you know, will get beat up on this point, and then they think that's what Christ -centered

preaching is, and so they respond, they react.

And we're saying, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Right, we're gonna go back to Luke 24 for a minute, and that's what I was saying earlier.

Like, Luke 24 is the passage, you know.

But it's interesting in Luke 24, what I don't think people recognize, is that when Jesus came up to those guys on the road to Emmaus,

it says, their eyes were kept from recognizing him.

Mm -hmm, supernaturally, yeah.

Well, yeah, and part of that may have been super, I've always debated on that.

Whether it's not.

Every year, I've gone back and forth.

Like, I think I take a different position every year.

Is it supernatural, or actually, was it because they thought he was gonna redeem Israel?

They had a wrong conception of what Christ was actually gonna do and accomplish, and therefore,

it's kind of jointly, their own hearts and eyes were blinded, because they should've, she should've

known this.

You could still call that supernatural, just not the direction we want it to be.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

The blinding of Satan.

Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

But it's interesting, you know, when you ask of the passage, how did, it seems to me

the problem in that passage is, how were eyes opened?

Seems to me that's the fundamental question of Luke 24.

Why don't you, why don't you let me go, then?

How were eyes opened?

Say more, brother, say more.

We're here for it.

Say more.

Well, and so, you know, they're wrestling through this, and he comes along, he's the great teacher, you know.

What things, and I just love that question, what things?

Yeah, what things?

I know, it's like, what do you mean?

Did you not see all this, you know?

And they work through their problem, and then, you know, here comes this just great passage, right, oh

foolish ones, slow of heart, to understand all the prophets have spoken, ought not the Christ to

have suffered, right, and to enter into his glory, and beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he

interpreted to them in all the scriptures, he preached, he proclaimed, he interpreted, he wrestled through the scriptures.

I don't know where he went to, probably Joseph, but anyway, all the things concerning himself, but if you

follow this passage, how does he open their eyes?

It's a big point of this passage.

He goes down, and he does two things here.

Oh, yeah.

When you go down to verse 26, so they drew near the village

to which they were going, he acted as if he were gonna go further, but they urged him, strongly saying, stay with us, for it's toward evening,

the day is now far spent, so he went in to stay with them.

When he's at the table, he took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, oh, that's kind of a

familiar formula.

That's very interesting.

We know that formula, and he gave it to them.

Very interesting.

Then their eyes were opened, bam.

So he preached the cross from all scripture, and the institution of the supper.

It's emphasizing the formula there.

Boom, boom.

Exactly, and then.

I mean, boom, bro, their eyes were opened.

Then he does it again.

Yeah, I know.

Our elders had this conversation several years ago from this text, the exact same thing that you just pointed out.

How were these guys' eyes opened?

And it is, it's through him opening, and I'm gonna go to verse 32 in just a second, but yeah, the proclamation of

himself, his work, and then the table.

It's word and table, right?

In verse 32, they said to each other, did not our hearts burn within us while he talked with us on the road, while he opened

to us the scriptures?

How did he do that?

How did he open to them the scriptures?

He opened the scriptures by teaching them from all of the scripture about himself, right?

And then later on, we obviously get the words too that he says in verse 44 to

his disciples, these are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of

Moses and the prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.

That's all of it.

And then follow the next verse.

Then he opened their mind.

Their understanding.

So it's eyes and understandings, right?

And this has to happen every week.

Yeah.

That's right.

I've heard multiple pastors, commentators, and I've said this myself.

I wish we would have known what Jesus said there.

And as you guys are talking here, and I'm being reviewed.

We do.

I'm gonna review all of us right now.

If we really believe our theology and we really believe what scripture teaches us,

Luke's saying, you already know what he said.

Because all of scripture is about Christ.

So Luke's like, I don't have to tell you, you already know.

And many, as I'm sitting here, this kind of dawned on me, like why Luke left it out.

It's kind of one of those moments where it's like, come on guys.

Because Jesus rebukes them and like, you should have known this.

I love how even how John says is that you search the scriptures because in them you think, and Jesus says they're of me.

You think in them you find eternal life.

That's right.

They that bear witness about me.

And so to every preacher out there, I just want to say, and I don't want to be crude here, but there's kind of like this duh moment of like, hey

guys, if you're not preaching the gospel from all of scripture and that the good news is of

me from Genesis on, then it's wrong.

Well, hey, you, if you believed Moses, you'd believe me.

The prophets.

Because Moses wrote of me.

Well, I hope that was enjoyable for you.

We enjoyed it.

It was a long conversation and we had to cut it up into multiple episodes, which, you know, was worth it.

And for those of you who might be listening for the first time, we do a second minute, a second podcast called Semper Ephraimanda,

where this is for people who have partnered monthly to support us and they're excited about

seeing the gospel go out with all kinds of the types of media that we do through video, audio books,

articles, things like that.

So we do a second podcast and we also have an app where we interact with everybody, that podcast called Semper Ephraimanda.

So we're going to talk a little bit more about our trip and some special events and stuff that are coming up.

And so if you would like to learn more about joining that particular ministry, you can go to theocast .org.

All right, Justin, look forward to seeing you guys next week.