May 12, 2021 Show with David J. Engelsma on “The Belgic Confession” (Part 2)

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I'm always thrilled to have back on the program a guest who always proves to be extremely well -informed on some of the most vital issues of the

Christian faith, and I'm speaking of Professor David J. Engelsma, who is an author and was the professor of dogmatics and Old Testament studies for 20 years at Protestant Reform Seminary in Granville, Michigan, and is now and has been emeritus professor since the

Synod of 2008. He was the editor of the Standard Bearer magazine from 1988 to 2002, and is still a lecturer and preacher touring in North America and throughout the

British Isles on behalf of the British Reform Fellowship, which is devoted to spread and defend the

Reform faith in the United Kingdom. Today, we are going to address a subject that we began about a month ago.

This will be part two of our discussion on Professor Engelsma's new commentary, his new two -volume commentary on the

Belgic Confession. And it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Professor David J.

Engelsma. Thank you for having me. My main appreciation for being back is that we can introduce to your audience one of the great documents expressing and defining and explaining the

Christian faith, the Belgic Confession. Although it was written in 1561, a long time ago now, since its content is the truth of the word of God according to the

Orthodox Christian understanding of that truth, it is a valuable document for all who confess the

Christian faith, especially Reformed and Presbyterian Christians. And I hope that the outcome of our discussion today will be that a number of your audience will make it a point to obtain a copy of the

Belgic Confession if they have not one in their possession, read and study it carefully for the strengthening of their faith and even for their conversion to the

Reformed faith, should it so please God. Amen. And I would urge my fellow

Reformed Baptists to get your hands on the Belgic Confession and the

Three Forms of Unity for that matter, because other than the areas that involve the ordinance of baptism and some issues regarding church polity,

Reformed Baptists would be very much in harmony with the contents of the

Belgic Confession and the Three Forms of Unity. And tell us if you could,

I know we've already had you summarize this before on our last interview, but to recap some of the important issues, how would the

Belgic Confession stand out from not only the other two forms of the

Three Forms of Unity, but also from the

Westminster Confession of Faith, the Savoy Declaration, the 39 Articles of Religion of the

Anglican Church, and of course the Second London Baptist Confession, which is nearly identical to the

Westminster. How would the Belgic Confession be unique in what it contains?

Written in a time of intense persecution of Reformed Christians in the lowlands, which then was made up of what is now the

Netherlands and Belgium, the Belgic Confession states and explains and proclaims all of the outstanding doctrines of the

Christian faith in a fervent, heartfelt manner. It was written in 1561 and soon afterwards approved by several national

Reformed synods in the lowlands, what is now the Netherlands and Belgium, and in 1618 and 1619 the great

Ecumenical Synod of Dort adopted the Belgic Confession along with the

Heidelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dort as the three creeds of Reformed Christians everywhere in the world and to the end of history itself.

So the Belgic Confession has a special status. Not only is it the individual confession of the faith by a group of Christians, but it's the official document for the

Reformed churches everywhere and to the world's end. The distinction of the Belgic Confession in comparison with the two companion documents that make up the three forms of unity is that the

Belgic Confession treats or confesses all of the great doctrines of the

Christian faith, beginning with the doctrine of God and concluding with the doctrine of eschatology, or the last things, in an orderly fashion.

The Heidelberg Catechism also treats many, if not most, of the articles of the

Christian faith, but more summarily and briefer because the

Catechism is treating the Christian gospel from the point of view of comfort. The Canons of Dort, on the other hand, does not treat all of the doctrines of the

Christian faith, but only those doctrines that comprise what is known as the doctrines of grace, that is, familiarly known as the five points of Calvinism.

Total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints.

The Belgic Confession is special, therefore, to Reformed Christians for treating and explaining all of the doctrines of the

Christian faith and doing so in a logical order. The confession that most nearly compares with the

Belgic Confession is the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is the creed, especially, of the

Presbyterian churches in the British Isles, as well as the Presbyterian churches today everywhere in the world.

The great church historian, Philip Schaff, in the first volume of his Creed of Christendom, having explained and praised the

Belgic Confession, says something to the effect that the Belgic Confession is the best confession of the

Reformed faith, with the exception of the Westminster Confession of Faith. I would take issue with his comparison with the

Westminster Confession of Faith in one respect, and that is the liveliness and the evidently heartfelt character of the confession of the

Belgic Confession of Faith in comparison with what I would categorize as a more academic expression of the truths of the gospel by the

Westminster Confession of Faith. The Westminster Confession of Faith is more thorough and detailed in its exposition of the faith of the

Reformed churches and Presbyterian churches, but there is a liveliness and an urgency about the

Belgic Confession that, to my mind, the Westminster Confession of Faith lacks. The Westminster Confession of Faith is more academic and scholarly.

When you read and take to heart the Belgic Confession of Faith, you cannot escape the conviction that here is the

Reformed church speaking from its very heart, and speaking from its very heart as it faces the stake of persecution.

There is a liveliness and urgency about the Belgic Confession that is heartwarming and moving.

Just to give one example, when it is talking about justification, the

Belgic Confession urges that truth upon every reader by saying that, apart from the truth of justification by faith alone, believing on Jesus Christ alone for righteousness, without any works of our own, we should all truly be consumed and destroyed by the righteousness of God.

There is that kind of urgency and liveliness about the Belgic Confession that, to my mind, places the

Belgic Confession at the very top of the list of, admittedly,

God's most godly and truthful expressions of Orthodox Christianity and the other

Reformed confessions. Now, one thing that we should probably revisit is the fact that there are

Christians out there amongst evangelicals who are non -confessional or even anti -confessional.

They would appear to think that embracing a confession of faith is a violation of sola scriptura, or the sufficiency of scripture.

And the irony behind that is that virtually none of these protesters against confessionalism would dare have a worship service where a pastor or preacher merely ascended into a pulpit, read a text of scripture, closed his

Bible, and sat down without exegeting it. Isn't this a bit of, perhaps, unconscious hypocrisy to be opposed to confessions when virtually all

Christians, whether they are theologically sound or heretical, seek to explain what is contained in the

Bible? I think you point out in your own remarks the impossibility of their position, that is, to embrace the inspired, infallible

Word of God without confessing the truth contained in that infallibly inspired

Word of God. Even the most die -hard opponent to creeds will have to acknowledge that he and his congregation say something that expresses their belief as to what the

Bible teaches, and especially in controversy. What do they say when they preach or talk about Jesus Christ?

If they confess about Jesus Christ, whether from the pulpit or in Bible study classes or in their conversation with their neighbor, that he is one person with two natures, and if they state about Jesus Christ's death that it was a substitutionary, atoning death in which he satisfied the justice of God, they are not simply quoting the

Bible, but they are expressing their conviction concerning what the Bible teaches, and that is what a confession is.

What the heart believes, the mouth confesses. So it is impossible for them to carry through on their project of rejecting confession altogether.

But the Bible itself warrants and praises confession.

What the heart believes, the mouth confesses. In Romans chapter 10, the

Apostle speaks of that confessing as an aspect of salvation itself.

Besides that, as I've already indicated, whether it's written or stated or declared by a consistory or ruling group of a church, a confession of the truth with its implicit condemnation of error is absolutely necessary for the church in the world.

The truth will not continue and the lie will not be opposed apart from the churches confessing what the conviction of their heart is, hopefully, truthfully, what their heart acknowledges to be the truth of the word of God.

Confessions are necessary, confessions are biblical, and in addition to not being possible for a church to be non -confessional, if it tries to carry out that position that they do not confess and do not receive confessions, that church will not long endure in the truth of the gospel.

Now, we recognize at the same time the truth of an aspect of their position, which is the

Bible alone as the inspired, infallible word of God and the authoritative standard for the belief of the church.

We recognize that. We do not exalt confessions to an equal position with the inspired word of God.

But that inspired word of God is to be interpreted and thus confessed by true believers and by the church especially.

Now, wouldn't you say that confessions, if they are biblically based, of course, and that they are orthodox and so on, that they are a guardrail against heresy and apostasy?

And what I mean by that is there have been, throughout history, denominations that began as confessional, that began to deteriorate in regard to their theology and doctrine and practice, and the

Presbyterian Church, for instance, the larger denomination which is currently known as the PCUSA, they, by the time of the fundamentalist modernist controversy in the early 20th century, they had departed from the

Westminster standards. And whereas they, more importantly, departed from the

Bible, one can more easily disguise with explanations that are deceptive a departure from the scriptures because they say, well, we just interpret this differently now, or what have you.

But there is more of a clear line of demarcation where a denomination or an individual even abandons a confession.

Am I making sense here? You are certainly making sense. One of the important, and I would say one of the more important purposes and functions of the creeds in the life and history of the

Church is exactly to guard against heresy. And they have functioned that way also.

Smooth -talking preachers and deceptive theologians can lead the

Church off from the truth of the Bible using phrases that hide the doctrine that he is actually teaching so that theologians in the

Church are held to the standard of a right interpretation and right confession of the truths of the

Bible. Teaching is compared with the expression of the truth in the creed and can be discovered and the theologian can be disciplined so that the

Church is not ruined. In fact, I would say there is so much to what you have just said about the function of the creed that without creeds it is virtually certain that a

Church will be deceived, misled by heretics, and will fall away from the truth of the gospel and from Jesus Christ himself.

One of the functions of the creed is to glorify God by expressing together as the

Church the glorious gospel of his grace with all that is contained in it. And another,

I would say, inseparably connected purpose is to guard against heresy, which cannot be done apart from creeds.

Now, one of the areas, you mentioned this in our first interview rather briefly, but if we could perhaps delve more deeply into it.

One of the key issues and one of the first issues addressed by the

Belgic Confession is the nature of God. And what, if you could, is a summary of what the

Belgic Confession states about this very important doctrine? And what would be the backdrop that this biblically orthodox view of the nature of God is standing in stark contrast against?

Is there a very prevalent misunderstanding that exists within professing

Christendom and even evangelicalism that would be a false or heretical understanding of the nature of God?

I think it's noteworthy that Article 1 of the Belgic Confession is a statement of the faith of Reformed believers concerning God.

Even though what immediately follows are several articles on Revelation, the means by which we know

God, Article 1 is the confession that there is one only

God. And then are listed several of God's virtues or perfections, including simplicity, spirituality, eternality, incomprehensibility, invisibility, immutability, infinity, almightiness, wisdom, justice, and goodness.

That article concludes with the declaration that God is the overflowing fountain of all good.

I think that's noteworthy. That's certainly deliberate on the part of de Bray, the author of the

Belgic Confession following Calvin, and of the Reformed churches that have adopted this confession because the

Reformed faith is God -centered. In the Reformed faith, God is first. God is primary.

God is central, not only in Article 1 but throughout the entire confession. The confession might have begun with a statement of Revelation or some other truth, but it deliberately begins with the truth of God.

God is central. God is all. That's characteristic of the Reformed faith.

For those Protestants or Evangelicals or even unbelievers who might have a copy of the

Belgic Confession in hand and study it, they must not miss that. To know the

Reformed faith, you must know it as God -centered. But as you say, what follows then are some articles on the revelation of God by nature or creation, which although is a revelation of God to all humans, is not saving, and the revelation of God in the

Scriptures. What follows that are the articles describing the essence of God and the persons of God in Articles 8 through 11.

Although the Reformed faith concerning the nature of God as having all these perfections that are mentioned in Article 1 and as being triune, certainly stood in opposition to heretical doctrines of God at that time.

And in all time, there's always a denial, for example, of the

Trinity of God, the Godhead of Jesus and the Godhead of the Holy Ghost. I think more especially what the

Belgic Confession is doing in those articles on the nature of God is identifying the

Reformed faith with the church of all ages, and particularly with the early church.

One reason for that is that the Roman Catholic Church criticized and condemned the

Reformed churches and Protestantism generally as a Johnny -come -lately on the ecclesiastical scene.

Rome's great claim is and always has been that it is the one church constituted by Peter and running virtually unhindered down through the ages to the present time.

And the Belgic Confession, with the Reformation generally, responded to that criticism and accusation of the

Protestant church and the Reformed church in particular by insisting that the

Reformed church is one doctrinally and therefore one essentially with the church through the ages, and particularly with the early church following the apostles.

And one express way in which these opening articles on the nature of the

Godhead does this is at the end of Article 9 of the

Belgic Confession. Having confessed the Trinity of God, one essence, and three persons, the concluding paragraph reads like this,

In this point we do willingly receive the three creeds, namely that of the apostles, of Nicaea, and of Athanasius.

Likewise, that which conformable thereunto is agreed upon by the ancient fathers.

So the Reformation church denied that it was Ajani come lately on the church scene and insisted that it is the one church of Christ established by Christ with his apostles that has existed down through the ages.

And in another place, carrying out that affirmation of the oneness of the church of the

Reformation with the church of all ages, the Belgic Confession criticizes and condemns some of the heretics, some of the heresies that appeared in the early church.

So I would say that is really the primary motivation of the careful statement of the nature of God and particularly of the

Trinity of God. We have to go to our first break right now. If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own for Professor Engelsma, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of Professor Engelsma.

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Keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and we'll let you know when he returns. And if you just tuned us in, we are interviewing today one of my favorite guests to interview,

Professor David J. Engelsma, and we are discussing today part two of a discussion that we began about a month ago.

This is part two on his new two -volume commentary on the Belgian Confession.

And our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And we have an anonymous listener who asks the question,

I am troubled by the way that many in my church have defined what they believe the

Trinity to be. It seems they are unconsciously mimicking a modalist understanding of the

Trinity, and isn't it true that this issue of modalism has for centuries been a plague to Christendom as a primary heresy that is really in stark contrast against the biblical and orthodox understanding of the

Triune God? That color is right in his judgment as to what is taking place widely concerning the doctrine of the

Trinity, the espousal of a modalist view, which amounts to this, that there is only one person in the

Trinity who variously adopts the mode of Son and Holy Spirit, which is a denial, a flagrant denial of the doctrine of the

Trinity, particularly a denial of the full personal identity of the eternal

Son of God, so that there is grievous heresy in that church. Now such a one, and even a church, a congregation would be helped by having a copy of the

Belgic Confession and having that Belgic Confession as the authoritative standard of teaching in the church, because the articles in the

Belgic Confession that deal with the Trinity of God, Articles 8, 9, 10, and 11 clearly expose the heresy of modalism, and clearly to the believer, not just to the theologian, but to the believer describes the truth of the

Trinity, that there are three distinct persons in the Godhead, one being but three distinct persons, all of whom share the being of God, so that the

Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And by having a creed as the authoritative standard of truth, they could expose and discipline teachers who are teaching modalism, and be preserved themselves and in their generations and be useful to preserve the church by means of a creed such as the

Belgic Confession. In fact, I would strongly advise that correspondent to obtain a copy of the

Belgic Confession and I hope that Iron Sharpens Iron would be able to make that available.

In fact, Chris, if you get requests for a copy of the Belgic Confession, if you pass that request on to me,

I will see to it that a copy of the Belgic Confession is sent free of charge to any listener and to as many listeners as would desire to have a copy.

And then read the articles on the Trinity of God in the Belgic Confession to confirm your faith concerning Orthodoxy and to confront the minister with regard to his heresy.

Well, thank you so much for that very generous author. And also, guess what,

Anonymous? Not only will you get that free Belgic Confession if you so request one, you are going to be getting the commentary that we're discussing.

In fact, you're getting both volumes of the two -volume commentary on the Belgic Confession by David J.

Engelsma, compliments of our friends at the Reformed Free Publishing Association and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com

CVBBS .com will be shipping it out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thanks for the excellent question. In fact, that is the very issue that one of the most infamous heretics was executed, and I'm not saying that I agree with the physical execution of heretics, but it was something commonly done, sadly, in the days of John Calvin and prior to those days.

John Calvin did not execute Michael Servetus. He was not even the one that first cried out demanding his execution or anything like that, but he did, from what

I understand, consent to it, and the governing authorities saw fit to execute him after warning him on multiple occasions to stay clear of Geneva.

He was very determined to spread his modalist heresy as far and wide as he could, and even accusing

Calvin and others of being the heretics, not him. But a very serious heresy indeed, and I have heard other

Reformed apologists admit that they are saddened when they have conversations with average

Christians. I'm not talking about members of cults like the Oneness Pentecostal cults, the

United Pentecostal Church International and so on, but members of churches that are theologically sound, but the members haven't seemed to grasp what the

Trinity means, and I've heard Reformed apologists say that they are shocked and saddened by routinely hearing your average

Christian recite or regurgitate a modalist view of the Trinity.

Your reference to the historical incident of Servetus and Calvin is of interest.

Servetus taught that Jesus was the son of the eternal God, but he refused to confess that Jesus was the eternal son of God.

Calvin, as you say, who was opposed to the burning of Servetus, however he wanted to have him killed in another way so he doesn't come off too well in that regard, followed

Servetus to the stake, pleading with him, say, Jesus, the eternal son of God, and Servetus refused to do that, indicating, as you point out, his modalist theology.

Now, I guess I've heard from my recollection different reports of his actual execution.

I heard that he cried out while being burned the Orthodox understanding of Christ. Is that an urban legend, for lack of a better term?

Yes. It paints Servetus in a much better light than he deserved.

He refused to confess that Jesus was the eternal son of God even when he was on fire at the stake.

He was consistent at least with his heretical views. He did say, as I mentioned, Jesus, the son of the eternal

God. He ascribed the eternality to God, but he denied the person of Jesus as the eternal son of God.

He did not confess the truth even when he was on fire. What a tragedy, and a brilliant man.

He was a medical physician and I think was responsible for breakthroughs in science in his day.

And what a tragedy that he would be such a champion for falsehood.

Now that's also the occasion for me to remark, Chris, because I doubt very much that you and I are going to come to the end of the

Belgic Confession in this session either. If we do, that's fine. But next to the last article of the

Belgic Confession, Article 36, is on the magistracy, the civil government.

And that's the one article to which I take exception because it ascribes to the civil magistrate the duty to protect the pure religion by the sword of the magistrate.

That's in keeping with the thinking of everybody at that time, Calvin included. And the

Dutch Reformed Churches in years past have added an appendix, not an appendix, but a note to that article for my salvation with regard to subscribing to the

Belgic Confession which takes issue with that view of civil government. That is that the civil government is given by God the task and the duty to defend the true religion with the civil sword, with civil punishments.

So that comes up, that issue of Calvin and Servetus really comes up in the Belgic Confession also in Article 36.

In addition, it says to keeping order in society, with which I am in agreement of course, magistrate has the duty with the sword to defend the true religion and punish heresy.

That I take exception to. And the Reformed religion allows me to do that.

We have another anonymous listener who says

I have many close friends who are Roman Catholic and many family members who remain

Roman Catholic and one of the things that they constantly hurl at me when we have disputes over our differences is that the

Protestant Reformers removed books from the Bible that were indeed

God breathed. Of course, these are the books that Protestants would call apocryphal and the

Roman Catholic Church would call deuterocanonical. Does the Belgic Confession address why the deuterocanonical books are not included in the

Protestant canon? That question directs our attention to Article 6 of the

Belgic Confession. It is the difference between the canonical and apocryphal books.

In its very thorough accounting of revelation and revelation in Scripture in particular one of the most thorough declarations and descriptions of the

Reformed faith concerning Scripture in Article 6 the

Belgic Confession lists the apocryphal books that Rome holds as part of Scripture and that Protestantism denies so that no

Reformed believer will have any difficulty in recognizing which books of the

Bible we regard as authoritative and inspired and which books we reject as apocryphal or uninspired.

They're all listed. And the explanation is that the books of the

Bible themselves give powerful testimony to their inspiration and that the apocryphal books simply lack that testimony of the

Holy Spirit to their inspiration. As a matter of fact the

Reformed churches in the 16th century by synodical or ecclesiastical assembly decision rejected the apocryphal books as uninspired but the reason, the ground is simply that the inspired books testify to their own inspiration they're the testimony of the

Holy Spirit in the books themselves that they are inspired and that the apocryphal books lack that testimony of the

Holy Spirit. Now in connection with that testimony the truth of the matter is as Rome and every

Roman Catholic must also acknowledge there occur in the apocryphal books things that are obviously false for example that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of another nation besides Babylon and there are many things in the apocryphal books that are simply foolish but it ultimately comes down to the testimony of the

Spirit in connection with the inspired books. Scripture testifies to its own authority and inspiration and the apocryphal books lack that testimony

In fact it might interest our listeners that Jerome who was responsible for the

Latin Vulgate he was opposed to including the apocrypha in the canon of the

Vulgate because he knew the Jews had never viewed them as a part of the

Hebrew canon so it might be interesting for our listeners to know that even the

Roman Catholic Jerome opposed the inclusion of the apocrypha also known as the

Deuterocanonical books. Heading to that there was an important church early church council for ecclesiastical assembly in the late 4th century 390's after Christ that listed the inspired books of the

Bible as the Reformed faith has them today and excluded the apocryphal books so there is a certain witness to their not being inspired in the early church.

Yes and some people confuse the Gnostic Gospels and other forgeries of New Testament books with the apocrypha the apocrypha is strictly referring to those books from that are considered by Roman Catholics to be a part of the

Old Testament canon and we would strongly oppose that understanding. We have to go to our midway break right now and I hope that you will please be patient with us because the midway break is a little longer than the other breaks in our show

Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of our show because they are required of the

FCC to localize this show to Lake City, Florida through their own public service announcements and other local announcements so while they do that, while they air those things we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

Please use this time wisely by writing down as much of the information as possible provided by our advertisers so that you can respond more frequently and successfully to our advertisers which not only means purchasing their products and using their services and visiting their churches and supporting their parachurch organizations but when you cannot do any of those things, please at the very least respond to our advertisers by thanking them for sponsoring

Iron Trump and Zion Radio. Let them know that you are listening and that you appreciate their financial support of this program which we absolutely positively need to exist.

So respond to our advertisers in any way that you can and also send in a question to Professor David J.

Engelsma on the Belgic Confession to chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Don't go away. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries my friend

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Before I return to our guest today, David J. Engelsma, in our discussion, which is a part two of a discussion we began last month on his new two -volume commentary on the

Belgic Confession, I just have a couple of announcements to make. First of all,

I hope that you tune in tomorrow. We have a dear friend of mine who has become a frequent guest in this program,

Roger Salter, returning to this program. He is a thoroughly Reformed, thoroughly

Orthodox, biblically Anglican. He is the rector of St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. He is vehemently opposed to both the leftism and apostasy of the

Episcopal Church and also even the high Romish Oxford movement wing of the

Episcopal and Anglican Church. He's opposed to both of those. He is a solidly biblical evangelical

Anglican, and he is going to be discussing the Ascension of Christ, which is a greatly underestimated doctrine of the

Christian faith. So please tune in tomorrow to that. Also on Friday, my dear friend Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is going to be returning, and we have not yet chosen a topic of discussion, so you'll be probably discovering that pretty much at the same time

I am. But whatever he discusses, he seems to have a master of the topic, and I look forward to it as well.

Please remember, folks, to keep praying for Vody Baucom. Vody Baucom, who has been scheduled to be one of the speakers at the

G3 conference where I will be in attendance, manning an exhibitor's booth, God willing. This September 2nd,

I'm sorry, this September 30th through October 2nd in Atlanta, Georgia, Vody has been on the roster until recently.

He has been temporarily, hopefully, removed from the roster because he had a severe health setback.

He had quadruple bypass surgery recently, and he left

Zambia to have the surgery here in the United States, and he has been recovering with his wife and children here in the

States, and it is not yet certain whether he will be healthy enough and strong enough and have the energy to continue his previously scheduled role at the

G3 conference. So, please pray for him, that the Lord completely heals him, and that he can join us there at the

G3 conference as one of the speakers. Also, folks, if you love this show, and you don't want the show to disappear from the airwaves,

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Click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, if you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe, you don't have to believe identically with I do.

I have guests on this program frequently that I agree with what they have to say for the most part, but there's always, or typically at least, some disagreements, even with my guest today, as much as I love him.

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Go to ironsharpendesignradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. Lastly, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful, theologically sound church, no matter where on the planet earth you live,

I have lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and I may be able to help you find a church.

I've helped many people in our audience all over the planet earth find churches, sometimes even within a few minutes of where they lived, and they didn't even know these churches existed, or they didn't know that these churches that they pass by every day were theologically sound.

So if you are in that category of being in need of a biblically faithful church, please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line.

That is also the email address where you can send in a question to David J. Engelsma, if you have a question on the professor

Engelsma. We were just talking before the break about the apocryphal books. Are these books of any benefit to bible -believing

Christians? Should we shun them, avoid them altogether, or can we make use of them like other non -canonical, extra -biblical books that we frequently will use as Christians, and uh, swallowing the meat and spitting out the bones, as they say?

Even as you mentioned earlier, you reject the

Belgic Confessions section on the civil magistrate's authority and power, but if you can, let us know what your thoughts are on making any use at all of the apocryphal books.

I am grateful that you returned to the subject of the apocryphal books. Upon reflecting on my answer to your correspondent, it comes to mind that I would do grave disservice to the subject and to your correspondent if I did not mention that this issue of the apocryphal books being included or excluded from the canon of scripture is of great importance doctrinally, great importance with regard to the gospel itself.

Among the very serious errors in the apocryphal books is the teaching, the doctrine of justification by works, the

Roman Catholic doctrine of justification by works over which the entire reformation of the church was fought, and which error is destructive of the gospel of grace itself.

One should reject, and we do reject, the apocryphal books because of its teaching of justification by faith and works, and thus the corruption of the gospel of grace itself.

Then with regard to the possible use of the apocryphal books, the

Belgic Confession addresses that very question and says that we may make some use of them.

We may take instruction, I'm quoting from article six of the Belgic Confession now, the church may read them and take instruction from them so far as they agree with the canonical books.

But then it adds that they are far from having such power and efficacy as that we may from their testimony confirm any point of faith or of the

Christian religion, much less detract from the authority of the other sacred books. Of all the apocryphal books, the two books of the

Maccabees, which describes the history of the Jewish nation and kingdom in the time between the

Old Testament and the New Testament, are by far the most important.

They give instruction concerning the history of the

Jewish people between the time of Malachi and the time of the birth of Jesus Christ.

And in that history is the interesting and important history of a heathen monarch named

Antiochus Epiphanes who persecuted the Jews during the time between the

Old Testament and the New Testament. And that history is of interest and of importance to the

Christian church. So we may make some use of those books, but not as we make use of the authoritative books of the canonical scriptures.

By the way, I want to plug a debate that my dear friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries had with a Roman Catholic on the

Apocrypha or Deuterocanonical, depending upon which side of the Tiber River you're standing.

It was a really fascinating debate and I think very revealing as to the inadequacies of Rome's defense of the

Apocryphal books being canonical in the Hebrew scriptures. One of those debates where the side of truth, meaning the side of the

Reformation, was clearly seen as victorious, I believe. And I think that's even evident from the reaction by Roman Catholics on the internet who seemed to be, for the most part, very angry by the result of the debates.

Gary Machuta, his last name is spelled M -I -C -H -U -T -A, he is the

Roman Catholic apologist that defended the canonicity of the Apocrypha or Deuterocanonical books, and Dr.

James R. White opposed that very notion and did so brilliantly, not only through the scriptural evidence that would contradict the contents of the

Apocrypha, but also historical evidence. And you can find out more about that debate at A -O -M -I -N dot org,

A -O -M -I -N dot org, which is the website of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

We have a listener named George, and George is in West Islet, Long Island, New York, I believe he's a first -time listener.

And George asks the question, Can one be a logically consistent, faithful adherent to the three forms of unity, and specifically the

Belgic Confession, if they believe in an old earth understanding of creation?

That directs our attention to the article on creation in the Belgic Confession.

That article expresses the biblical Genesis account of creation and devotes a large section of the article to explaining and defending the reality of spirits, that is, angels and devils.

Now the fact is that by virtually quoting the Genesis account of creation, it condemns the theory of theistic evolution, or the old age theory of creation, which allows for billions of years in which creation gradually developed from an original mass.

As little as the Genesis account itself allows for an old earth theory, so little does the article on creation allow for the old earth theory.

That's getting to be an increasingly vital issue for Christians, for believers, as more and more of the churches and theologians, even in churches that historically have been conservative and bible -believing, adopt the theory of an old earth under the pressure of evolutionary science, so -called.

That appears in amazing circles. I recall, even though it's been many years ago now, that in my first year at the

Christian college of what was up until then a conservative and creedal, including the

Belgian Confession Reformed Church, the well -known and very influential professor of science in the course

I took asked that we raise our hands if we believe still in the world's being about 6 ,000 years old, if we believe the biblical account of creation was really what he was asking.

And I and only a few of the 30 or so reformed students there raised our hands that we believe that the earth and history were young.

And he grinned at us and said, by the time this course is over there won't be a single one of you who doesn't believe that the world is billions of years old.

And at the end of the course he asked again how many of us believed really the

Genesis account. He was an ardent theistic evolutionist, and there were only two,

I and a girl, and the rest of the class looked at us as though we were dinosaurs.

So this matter of a young earth or an old earth increasingly becomes an important issue for the

Christian and for Christian students in particular. Looking over the article in the

Belgian Confession on creation, as I did in preparation for this discussion, something struck me that had not struck me before.

It doesn't of course address itself to that matter of theistic evolution and the world being billions of years old because the

Belgian Confession was written before that theory ever gained any headway in Protestant churches.

It simply recounts in its own words the history and truth of creation in Genesis 1, which is enough by itself to condemn the theory of theistic evolution.

But then it goes on in a larger part of the article to state and explain

God's creation in that original creation act of angels, some of whom are fallen and become devils.

It struck me that that section of the creation, unexpected as it may be, really is the refutation of theistic evolution, which is the heart and center of the old earth theory.

It's possible, it's illegitimate, but it's possible to explain the creation as we presently have it of the material world in terms of theistic evolution.

There was some original mass which God supposedly did create that then evolved and developed over billions of years into the form that the material creation has today.

But the question to that theory is where then did the spiritual beings come from?

A mass of material is not going to develop into an angel who then falls away to become a devil.

There has to have been an immediate creation act of the spirits, angels and devils, which is a death blow to the theory, the principle of theistic evolution.

A spiritual being does not develop naturally or evolve naturally from a material creation.

So my answer is article 12 of the Belgic Confession rightly understood condemns the theory of an old earth.

There's a lot more to condemn in that theory than is found only in article 12 of the

Belgic Confession. The very doctrine of scripture itself is at stake in that issue because scripture clearly teaches the immediate creation of the world and of the various creatures in the world in six literal days.

But article 12 does not allow, of the Belgic Confession, the Belgic Confession does not allow for the old earth theory.

Doesn't the belief, or the clear teaching I should say, of a sabbath day in the creation account, doesn't that also add a lot of weight to a young earth and that the earth, that creation occurred in six literal days because the sabbath is clearly a single 24 -hour day and it becomes a completely disjointed teaching from the scriptures if all of a sudden every other day is billions of years and then we have a seventh day that is a literal 24 -hour day.

Doesn't that make it completely disjointed and removed from the fluidity and logic of the other explanations of the creation?

It does for an honest spiritual expositor of scripture, but those who are advancing the theory of an old earth to bring it into alignment with the authority of evolution, the end of which is the denial of God.

But the the same mind that can make billions of years out of the six days of creation can interpret the seventh day figuratively also and refer that to a long period of time in which there's a kind of rest of God.

I don't know what he would rest from because he didn't have much work during the six days anyway, but I suppose they can play exegetical games with the seventh as well.

Obviously Israel viewed the sabbath teaching as a day, a 24 -hour literal day, so I don't know how they could...

That, Chris, is part of the Decalogue, the fourth commandment of the law of God.

It says six days shall tell labor and the seventh day is the sabbath. Now if each of those days is billions of years, we're to work billions of years, each of us, and then rest on the sabbath day for a billion years as well.

A lot of unemployed people for billions of years. We have a listener from Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, the same county where I'm sitting here.

B .B. wants to know if the Belgic Confession explains the hypostatic union in a way that would be reasonably understandable to the average

Christian. I love Phoebe. She asks a highly important question and she gives me the opportunity to say something

I think I said previously when we were talking about the Confession. The Belgic Confession is written for Phoebe and people like her.

It is not written for academics. It is not written for Ph .D

.s. It is not written for theologians. It is written in such a style and form as to speak to the average

Christian man, woman, and young person. And yes, it explains the hypothetical union of the divine and the human natures in such a way that every believer can understand it, can appreciate the power of it, and the importance of it.

Jesus Christ is man and God, two natures united in the person of the eternal

Son of God. That is the force of the explanation and the explanation is about that simple and direct.

When she gets her copy of the Belgic Confession, I direct her to Article 10,

Jesus Christ is true and eternal God. In that explanation and defense of the two natures united in one person, there is also a great deal of proof from Scripture which illustrates and validates the

Confession of the Church of Christ concerning Jesus Christ and his two natures.

Now, how do we explain the immutability of God, the fact that he never changes?

And yet, there is something that occurred in history at a point in time with the

Godhead that was a difference from eternity past and that is the incarnation of Christ.

Although he became incarnate when the

Holy Spirit conceived in the womb of Mary, the babe Christ, he existed for all eternity past.

He did not arrive on the scene as Oneness Pentecostals believe and other non -Trinitarian heretics believe that Jesus arrived on the scene for the first time in history in the manger in Bethlehem.

But how do we defend the immutability of God even though there is this change that occurs?

The Belgic Confession confesses in Article 1 that this one true God whom we worship is immutable or unchangeable and there's biblical basis for that, although that biblical basis is not given in Article 1.

I am Jehovah, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. The prophecy, as I recall, of Micah and there are other passages as well.

The explanation with regard to the incarnation is that in the incarnation

God did not become a man, but in the incarnation

God took upon himself and particularly the second person of the

Trinity, the nature of a human. He did not change in the sense that he became a man, whereas he had not previously been a man, but he took to himself a human nature so that the being of God remained unchangeable in the incarnation.

And he was Jesus Christ. In fact, not only was, but is, not only fully God, but he is fully man.

That's correct. So I want to make sure you clarified that because there may be people that misunderstood the way you worded that.

In fact, isn't that one of the earliest heresies is to deny not the deity of Christ, but to deny his humanity?

Yes. He took to himself a human nature, which does not imply that he ceased being

God or changed in some respect with regard to his deity. So the reality that rightly understood of the incarnation both affirms the divine nature of Jesus and defends the immutability of God.

If the incarnation meant that God, instead of being God, became a man or even that the second person, instead of being the second person anymore, became a man instead, then you'd have immutability.

Then you'd have a change in God. But if God, as is the case, took to himself a human nature, the immutability of God is maintained and defended.

And by the way, you have also won a free copy of the two -volume commentary on the

Confession by our guest today, compliments of the Reform Free Publishing Association and compliments of CVBBS .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Thank you so much for the excellent question.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, one of the issues that seems to stand out most loudly and beautifully in the backdrop of the sea of Arminian heresies when it comes to the

Reformed faith is that only consistently Reformed Christians can truly logically believe in the complete satisfaction of God in that all he has decreed and set out to do, whether it be in predestinating the elect or dying for his people, were perfectly fulfilled and Christ will lose none of those that he intended to save.

Am I overstepping the boundaries of truth here? I think that analysis of the radical difference between the

Arminian heresy and the Reformed faith is exactly as that questioner has stated.

I don't think much needs to be added to his statement. He has it understood correctly and he has stated it sharply and clearly.

Arminianism has God changing and God dependent upon the will of the sinner so that in every possible respect the

Reformed doctrine of election, particular or limited atonement, and irresistible grace is not only the comfort of believers who are secure in their faith and in their salvation, but also glorifies

God by declaring God to be the sovereign, unchangeable, almighty

God that he is in his revelation in Jesus Christ. Yeah, the way that non -Reformed people present their understanding of God's saving the lost, even though they would likely not describe it this way,

I think it cannot be explained in any other way if you dissect it as being a hypothetical experiment that God undertook rather than a mission that he completely and totally accomplished.

I think that question directed us as questions about theology invariably due to the article in the

Belgian Confession on Eternal Election, Article 16. May I read that brief article?

Of course, of course. Here is the fundamental Reformed conviction and confession concerning predestination.

We believe that all the posterity of Adam being thus fallen into perdition and ruin by the sin of our first parents,

God then did manifest himself such as he is, that is to say, merciful and just, merciful since he delivers and preserves from this perdition all whom he in his eternal and unchangeable counsel of mere goodness has elected in Christ Jesus our

Lord without any respect to their works, just in leaving others in the fallen perdition wherein they have involved themselves.

Now, that's very brief, but the essentials of the doctrine of predestination are all there, and all that the canons of Dort did some years later was to flesh out what the

Belgian Confession had stated in Article 16. And Arminius himself personally was well aware that his theology was condemned by this brief article in the

Belgian Confession. Prior to his death before the Senate of Dort, he was clamoring in the church assemblies and preaching in the

Netherlands that reform ministers should be excused from subscribing to Article 16 of the

Belgian Confession, and that Article 16 of the Belgian Confession should either be dropped or should be revised, of course in accordance with his own theology that election is based on the foreseen will of the sinner.

Yeah, in other words that humans elect God, right? That's correct. We have to go to our final break right now.

It'll be much more brief than the others. If you have a question that you intend to submit, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We'll be right back after these messages with more Professor David Engelsma.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino, and thanks for listening. Right?

No, it's not. Only Jesus Christ makes the world right. Darrell Harrison of the

Just Thinking Podcast. Sinners like you and me can be reconciled first and foremost to God and consequently to one another.

Pastor Tom Buck of First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas. Like Satan in the garden, woke hermeneutics undermines the very authority of the

Word of God. I don't say that lie. Also here from Tommy Nelson, Charles Stolfus and Rodney Brown, confronting the lies being impressed upon the culture today, threatening even to divide the church and answering with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Wokeness in the Gospel Conference coming to Denton Bible Church, June 11th and 12th. Register online at wokenessandgospel .org.

And I hope you join me if you're able to get to Denton, Texas, this

June 11th and 12th. I hope you'll join me there. I will be manning an exhibitor's booth there,

God willing, representing Iron Trip and Zion Radio. This is a very important issue, this heresy known as wokeness, and it has many other terms that come under that umbrella.

But it is a very important issue that is plaguing the church like a cancer. So I hope that you can attend along with me

June 11th and 12th in Denton, Texas. The website again is wokenessandgospel .org,

wokenessandgospel .org. And we are going to be interviewing, God willing, in the next several weeks all of the speakers at this conference, and I hope that you tune in to each and every one of those interviews.

Professor Engelsma, before I take any more listener questions, I want you to have several minutes of uninterrupted time to really summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to the

Belgic Confession. My hope is that by means of the two discussions that we have had on the

Belgic Confession, this document and its importance, its priceless importance, are brought to the attention of many, some perhaps for the first time, others who may have heard of it but have not taken the time or had the motivation to read it.

I pray that many will read the Confession from beginning to end and discover that it treats of the whole of the

Christian faith on the basis of Scripture and in a urgent manner, as though what were at stake in this whole matter is the souls of sinners, and will also be equipped as members of churches that are departing from these truths, will be equipped to contend for the faith that has once been delivered to the

Saints, will have the knowledge themselves to know what the truth is and therefore also that the teachings that are appearing are erroneous, and will contend for the faith on the basis of what the

Belgic Confession teaches, perhaps even show the Belgic Confession, at least the pertinent articles, to their church authorities.

The Reformation of the Church in the 16th century with regard to its essential doctrinal elements is taught and continued in the

Belgic Confession and we mustn't celebrate the 16th century Reformation and then play fast and loose with the

Church in its development today. We must be willing to be used by God for the preservation of his

Church. And that brings me to add that one of the largest sections in the

Belgic Confession is the section on the

Church, various aspects of the Church, starting with the universal Church of the Elect.

Election is taught again in that opening article on the Church, the marks of the

Church, the true Church and the false Church, the offices in the

Church, the discipline of the Church, and the sacraments. We won't get to that today, but those are important articles with regard to the

Church. We do have a listener named

Chris, and Chris is in Suffolk County, New York, and he has a question.

I am confused by the fact that if Christ completely accomplished the redemption of his elect on the cross, why does he need to continue as an intercessor between God and man?

There's an important article in the Belgic Confession on Christ's intercession, a large and thorough and spiritual and moving explanation of the intercession of Christ, and I think reading that article would answer the question of Chris.

But I may give a brief answer to that question as well. Jesus Christ is a complete

Savior. He does not only redeem us from sin and death and obtain for us on the cross the right to be the children of God, but he also applies to us the salvation that he obtained for us on the cross.

What good does what he accomplished on the cross do to us if we never become participant in that salvation?

That's really the intercession of Christ. He pleads for us on the basis of his atoning work.

He pleads for us at the right hand of God for God's blessing of us, which is his application of Christ's benefits to us in our life, including preserving us in the salvation that he has begun in us.

His intercession is due to the fact that he's a complete Savior. Amen.

Well, thank you, Chris, and you are going to receive our final copy that we're giving away today. Oh, actually, it's two copies because it's two volumes of the

Belgic Confession commentary written by our guest today, David Engelsman.

Make sure we have your full mailing address. And once again, we thank the Forum Free Publishing Association for providing these copies of this two -volume commentary at the giveaway today, and we want to thank

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, for shipping them out to our winners.

Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the information they need to find out more about you and remain in touch with you.

First of all, the Reformed Free Publishing Association's website is rfpa .org,

R -F -P -A, which stands for Reformed Free Publishing Association, dot org.

And do you have any other contact information that you care to share for our listeners? If there are listeners who have a question yet in light of our conversation,

I may be reached on the internet at engelsma at prca .org,

engelsma at prca .org. And engelsma is spelt

E -N -G -E -L -S -M -A, E -N -G -E -L -S -M -A.

I want to thank you for being such a superb guest as you always are, Professor Engelsma, and if you could hold on the line,

I'd like to schedule another interview with you. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took time to write in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater