Law, Gospel, and Jesus (w/ The Pactum) | Theocast

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It has been said that Jesus is the greatest teacher of the law. Many would come to him and say, how can we enter into your kingdom?

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We assume Jesus would give them gospel, but if you read these passages it sounds like law because he tells them to obey the law and live.

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Today's episode is a discussion about the law gospel distinction with our good friend

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Pat Abendroth from the Pactum. You're going to want to stay tuned for this because we tackle a lot of the hard passages in both the

00:27

Old and New Testament. Stay tuned. If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

00:32

It's called pietism. Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy?

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That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

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It's dread versus joy, really. That's pietism. Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what

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Christ has done, but what they're doing. And we have a little book for you. It's free. We want you to download it and we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism, reform theology, really.

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How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

01:15

You can download it on our website. Just go to theocast .org. Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

01:32

Conversations about the Christian life from a reformed pastoral confessional. Justin, we've got to get a shorter list.

01:38

Reform perspective. Today, your hosts are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

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And I'm John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reform Church in Springhill, Tennessee. And Justin, this is pod number two today, but it's a fun one.

01:54

And I'm excited. I'm going to let you tell us why it's going to be a fun one today. Yeah, only the

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Lord knows how many descriptors are going to be in our intro here in about five years, right? We'll pray about that.

02:06

But yeah, today's episode is going to be a fun one. Oh my goodness. So we have a friend back on today.

02:15

Is it possible to have too much of a good thing? That's a real question that we need to ask our audience because we have our friend,

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Pat Abendroth, back on with us today. So two weeks ago in your podcast feed, we would have done an episode with Pat on the active obedience of Christ, but effectively salvation by works that Jesus is better.

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And so if you haven't listened to that one, we encourage you to go back and check it out. But our friend, Pat Abendroth, who is the pastor of Omaha Bible Church in Omaha, Nebraska, and is also known as the

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Pactom. Amen, amen, Pactom, active obedience of Christ.

02:51

I'm on TheoCast two times. Amazing, amazing. This might be over -realized eschatology, guys.

02:58

Oh, there you go. It's a whole lot of already is what it is. The reason the

03:04

Biblicists are saying can we do a shout out is because we're all riffing on it. Yeah, go ahead, John. Shout out to whoever you want.

03:09

I was going to say, maybe give a shout out to the Baptist Broadcast, who was originally supposed to be with us. Yeah, our friend,

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Josh Sommer, was originally supposed to be with us on today's episode, Baptist Broadcast.

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And he's just had some circumstances that have hindered him from being able to be a part of this. And so,

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Josh, shout out to you, man. So go listen to his stuff. Great stuff. We love you, Josh. Go listen to his stuff. Yeah, absolutely.

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And we were riffing on Biblicism before we recorded today, which just means that you're probably gonna have to stay tuned for an upcoming episode with TheoCast and the

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Pactum again on Biblicism. So we'll see. That and maybe cross -centered antinomianism. And is that a thing?

03:48

I think we can work both of those in today somehow as we talk about long gospel. Yeah, probably. So the occasion for today's conversation, though, shout out to our friends at Reformation Heritage Books.

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So recently they made John Cahoon's volume, A Treatise on the Law and the Gospel, available for free.

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And we're sending out... Pat, do you know the final statistic on how many copies were sent around? I think we broke the internet.

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So I got an error page when I tried to find the book yesterday. It just was broken. So so many copies given away.

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So praise the Lord for that. Okay, yes. Still get the

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PDF for free. You certainly can order copies of the book from Reformation Heritage Books. Yep, sorry.

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They've done a great thing by getting it out again. So what a great work. Make the law and the gospel great again.

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And so we are taking this opportunity to have a long gospel conversation today.

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But yeah, we commend the volume to you. I'm going to go ahead and just... Because we are on video as well as audio.

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So this is beautiful. This is not the way that the free one looks. But this is a nice hard copy version.

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This is the way the original, non -original one looked. And it looks really bad. Yours looks so much better because Reformation Heritage Books has done much better.

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They did. And I'm going to go ahead and just shamelessly... They sent us hard copies. Thanks for doing that. They did. I'm going to go ahead and shamelessly plug another

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RHB resource talking about John Cahoon. So Offering and Embracing Christ, the

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Merrow Theology of John Cahoon. I'm about three quarters of the way through this.

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Really encouraging to me as a pastor. The more I learn of the Merrow controversy and the men who kind of followed in that tradition, the more at home

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I feel. And I'm thankful for men who have gone before and have aimed to preach Christ and preach the law and the gospel the way that the three of us are meaning to in our generation.

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So thank you to Reformation Heritage Books for the wonderful resources you guys are publishing. It's a help to pastors and to lay persons alike.

05:49

And so that's the reason we're getting together today. Well, and speaking of good books, can we just mention

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Pat Avendross' Active Obedience of Christ? Go to Amazon and get it. There it is. Talk about breaking the internet,

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Pat. You know what? Everybody needs a good book. John, what did you bring?

06:08

John, what did you bring? Oh, ouch. Headphones. There we go. I think if I set the

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Active Obedience of Christ on top of the Cahoon book, maybe my book will transfer into Scottish.

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It'll have an accent just like Cahoon had. It could. Well, yeah. Or all the

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Presbyterians are hoping that you'd become Pato. You never know. There you go. Good job sprinkling that in. All right.

06:33

Justin, get us started, bro. This is out of control. We need to get this thing on the rails because this train is about derail before it even leaves the station.

06:42

So here we go. Let's start off softball question to both of you.

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I want to hear answers from both, and then I'll happily pile on if that's even necessary. So kind of like we said a few weeks ago, here's the scenario.

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Somebody who is brand new to this has never heard of the law and gospel distinction ever in their life, and you're sitting down for a cup of coffee or a beer or whatever it is, and you're going to have this talk.

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Pat, what is the law and gospel distinction in its simplest terms? And then, John, you can answer the same thing.

07:17

Oh, I thought you were going to ask me the chicken and the egg question. I was going to say chicken. But anyway. All right.

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So what I would say if we hope you guys have a good editor because I can't talk.

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You're good. I get paid. This is raw, brother. Speaking in public is how that goes. I would say when we go to burial room company, once again,

07:39

I would say in Asheville, I would say the law is what God requires. The gospel is what God graciously provides.

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And unpack it from there. So what he requires, what he provides, the law is that and the gospel is that.

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Pretty simple. We can unpack it. We can look at Bible verses, but there's my answer. I'm sticking to it.

08:00

Yeah, excellent. Yeah. I think what I do in a class when I teach it is helping people understand really news versus obligation.

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Right. So the law is here's an obligation to be met, and there's a result that comes from it.

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Do this. And the gospel isn't a proclamation of what was already done because news is always past tense.

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Right. So it's what has happened. So it's done versus do in the simplest. When you read a passage of scripture, are you reading about what was done for you by Christ or are you reading about what you must do?

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And that's the simplest way of thinking about the law is requirement and the gospel is the announcement of what has been done.

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Justin, we want to hear you guys as well. You guys have covered it all. I don't know that there's a lot to say.

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If I'm going to maybe get a little bit further down the road, I would say that in Old or New Testament, law is anywhere we read of what

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God requires for righteousness, and then anywhere in Old or New Testament where we read of what

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God gives us in his grace that we receive by faith, the works of another, then that's gospel.

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And simple paradigms that are helpful to me. Do is law.

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Done is gospel. So that's simple. Do conveys potential.

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Go ahead. I appreciate the fact that you said in either Testament, right? Because so much of this conversation ends up helping people to undo wrong thinking.

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Correct. So we've been all super simple and clear, but there's so much baggage because, you know, oh, what about the dispensation of law and the dispensation of gospel?

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No, we're not talking about that. What about the fact that the Old Testament is law and the New Testament is gospel?

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No, we're not talking about that. There's so many factors like that. So I love your clarity as far as in either

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Testament, because there's grace in both. There's gospel in both. Right. And there's law in both. So that's all.

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And I'll just jump in and give an example of that. I'll give an example of that is when Paul says the gospel was preached to Abraham and he believed.

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That's a great example of in the Old Testament is clearly the gospel. Well, Jesus in John 8 says that Abraham rejoiced to see my day.

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He saw it and was glad. He saw it by faith, right? I mean, amen. I think continuing to give people some simple paradigms that, again, are helpful to me, maybe because of how my brain works.

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Not only that do -done distinction, but the law says do this and live. Leviticus 18 .5.

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The one who does these things will live by them. The gospel says Jesus has done it. Now live in him.

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Or here's one that has gotten me shot at on social media. And you brothers can help clean this up so that I'm not misunderstood.

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No, wait till we do an episode on mythicism. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's going to happen.

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So the law demands everything and gives nothing. The gospel demands nothing and gives everything.

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And what we mean by that, so the law demands everything and gives nothing. Well, it's an exacting standard.

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It's all or nothing. It's perfect or you're ruined. The gospel demands nothing of us, meaning we don't do anything.

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It gives us everything that we need for forgiveness and righteousness and eternal life. And that gets people really worked up when you start to say things like the gospel contains nothing in it whatsoever that we are to do.

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But what about the demands of the gospel, guys? I'm getting ahead of myself. We'll save that maybe for later.

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Yeah, something like that. Other thoughts that you brothers have about the distinction? Or something like that. I know. Look out for assurance.

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People might be tempted now. Yeah. And it's important that we acknowledge that we're not simply saying gospel, gospel, gospel.

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When we talk about the law, gospel distinction, we're emphasizing. Yes, we're emphasizing the gospel.

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And we would happily say we're gospel centric or something like that. But we're all for emphasizing the law as well.

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And using it lawfully, which means strongly it requires perfect, exact obedience.

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And so we want to be committed to both and being clear with both. We think that's what the Bible models.

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It's what the Protestant Reformation was about covering. And when you blur the two, you ruin both.

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And so if it's well, the gospel has all of these demands and you have to obey all these things. You're just blurring the two and you've ruined the gospel because it should come to us freely by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

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But you also ruin the law. And somehow you've made the law gracious. And it's not gracious.

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It's exacting. It's about obeying. And so that's why we like to joke and say, I think, you know, probably

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Kim Riddlebarger probably came up with it according to my sources. But I learned it from my court in, you know,

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Gospel is a bad move. It's a bad look and it sounds bad.

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And because it is bad. So law and gospel don't blur the two, but emphasize the two. Is how

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I would want to say it. Yeah, yeah, I would. If you guys don't mind, I'm gonna be a little bit biographical here.

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In my really discovery of law gospel, I grew up in dispensationalism, went to dispensational college and seminary.

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And I can remember thinking that I was really upholding the law in my understanding of preaching and teaching.

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But I really wasn't in that I made the law achievable in my preaching and teaching.

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And what it ended up doing is putting an unbearable burden upon me and everyone else that was around who

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I was, because I. Imperatives. Yeah. And I thought, man, we need to, we need, you know, the world wants to shy away and they want to downplay obedience.

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And the Bible emphasizes obedience. And so we need to emphasize and preach obedience to the law.

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And that's really what my preaching and teaching was like. And yeah, gospel, of course, and grace, we are saved by grace alone.

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But what I didn't understand was I really saw the gospel as means of removal of sin.

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And it was a half gospel, which is why your book, another plug for Pat's book, Active Obedience of Christ, is a part of the gospel, right?

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It's a part of the good news of what Christ accomplished, not only passively receiving our punishment, but also actively earning our righteousness.

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So what ended up helping me was that the law got put back where it belonged, where the fence was no longer climbable.

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I couldn't get over the wall because no one can get that high. And the law, when

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I remember that, when I first understood the concept of the law crushing me, that's when

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I realized, oh, I have to have the gospel. And there's nothing in the gospel for me to do because the gospel relieves the crushing blow of the law.

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That's when Jesus's words, when he says, come to me, all you are heavy laden, I understood what he meant. Like, ah,

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I feel the weight of the law now. And he kept trying to put the weight of the law, like on the rich man, he would put the weight of the law on people.

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And they were like, I can carry it. Did you have half a law? You don't have the whole law.

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Even though it sounds blasphemous and awful, and it is blasphemous and awful, I think

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Martin Luther was just told by his mentor again and again, he had all this guilt and, you know, just love

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God, love God, love God, which is the law according to Jesus. That's the summary of the first table, right?

15:47

Yeah. Luther got to the point where he said, I don't love God. I hate God. I hate him. And yeah, that's terrible.

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But the reality is all of a sudden now things are starting to click. Things are starting to make sense because he really was grasping the fact that he didn't love

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God appropriately as he must. And that's what led him to desperation to then eventually see

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Christ. So I like the story. I just wanted to add it to your journey,

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John, telling us about your journey. That's what made me fall in love with a lot of Reformation theology and writers was because they would beat you brutally with the law.

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I mean, just pound you. And then they're like, are you done? Are you exhausted? Great, because now you're ready for the gospel.

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And the gospel becomes sweet and you learn to live by the gospel. And not live by the law.

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And when I make statements like that, people think you're antinomian. It's like, well, no, there's a difference of I walk by faith in Christ and therefore obey versus I walk by faith in the law because I think obeying the law produces righteousness.

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My faith must be in Christ. And that's why the distinction matters. Because if you think about it in this way,

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I remember the first time I started understanding the covenant of works. And I remember,

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I wish I knew who the author was. I totally give him credit right now. But he was reading Genesis 315, the first mention of the gospel.

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And he says, what demands are in this description of God's promise of restoration? And I was like, oh, wow, there's nothing.

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He never tells them anything. He says, this is what I'm doing. And then from my understanding, they just went forward believing that, right?

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There was a declaration of what would be done. And that's so important to understand. They did break the law.

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Don't eat of the fruit. They did do that. And then what was going to restore it? It was the works of Christ, not the work of Adam and Eve.

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Sorry, I've been talking a lot. But that, for me, just biographically really helped me understand you really have to keep these apart because if you collapse them, you actually are without hope now.

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Justin Perdue So we're already doing this anyway. Justin Perdue Destruction. You'll be self -destroyed or self -righteous.

17:57

Justin Perdue Yeah. Justin Perdue We're already doing it anyway. We're talking about why the distinction matters. I mean, so let's just let's continue along these lines.

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Why is it that keeping the law and the gospel appropriately distinct? Why does it matter in particular, not just for pastor type guys who like to nerd out on theology, but why does this matter for the proverbial person in the pew that, hey, they're getting up on a

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Wednesday morning. Maybe they're going to listen to a podcast, but they're on their way to work. They're taking the kids to school.

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Things might be going well. Things might be going really, really badly this week. Why is it that this law and gospel distinction matters for our souls on a day -over -day, week -over -week basis?

18:39

Justin Perdue You know, there's a great quote in the book, the Cajun book. It's brief to the point, but it answers that question.

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I think, Justin, he says, troubled consciences cannot ordinarily be quieted unless the doctrine of the gospel is rightly distinguished from that of the law.

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And, you know, troubled consciences are a problem, right, for each of us.

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And so how can we quiet that troubled conscience? Well, we need to know what the law requires, and then we're going to even be more troubled.

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And then we need to have the balm, if you will, to use the old language of the gospel to soothe us and to give us comfort and joy and assurance.

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And I know it's why each of us preaches every week, and we each want to preach the law to let people know they should be more troubled than they are, but also to preach the gospel so that they can be more encouraged than they ever otherwise would be.

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So it's so vital. Justin Perdue We got this email. This is a very common email that we get.

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I won't read all of it just to kind of protect them, but this line caught me when I read it.

19:47

They were just talking about their experience before understanding the law of gospel distinction and resting in Christ. They said there is a constant fear and dread and a struggle with a rebellious heart and unbelief.

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That's when you don't have a clarity of where truth comes from and there's a mixture.

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That's where you are. You're in a constant fear and dread because I can't live up to the obligations of the law and I'm being told to.

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That's where I think this conversation is so important. And you're talking about the practical nature of it,

20:20

Justin, is that if you're reading a book, listening to a podcast, or listening to preaching, and the preacher calls you to obey the law, he needs to call you to obey it in its exacting form so that you don't think it's achievable.

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Fear and dread comes in when you think you can do it. Justin Perdue Including motives, right? Heart, soul, mind, and strength.

20:42

Yeah, there's something in me. It's sinister, I know. But there's something in me that has this preaching fantasy about preaching just strict gloves -off law someday and then not saying amen and just walking away from the pulpit and driving out of the parking lot.

21:01

Not to be mean, but to kind of make a point. Justin Perdue Right, but to prove a point.

21:08

Yeah, and it would be bad news and it would feel terrible and awful. But I obviously don't do that because it's not our calling.

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We're called to preach law and gospel. But for effect, I think it would be effective.

21:22

Justin Perdue Yeah, well, brother, I'm sure in your old days, older, early days, you probably heard this statement of like, wow, we really needed to be beat up today.

21:30

We just thank you for it. And you're like, wow, what do you mean beat up? Because that's how it feels.

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We get beat up by the law, then we go home and build ourselves up with our own righteousness. Yeah, so that's what they mean.

21:42

Speaking to that matter, John, someone, no, not too long ago, you know, greeted me after the service and it was after it was gospel.

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I mean, I don't know what the text was, but it was super assuring. And it was it was pretty much all gospel once I talked about the law.

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And the person came up to me and they're like, oh, pastor, that was so convicting. And I thought you must have been checking your texts or your emails or something.

22:12

But I knew enough to know that the person, you know, loved Paul Washer and Paul Washer kinds of sermons.

22:18

And they were kind of trained to have that be the best compliment you can give, you know, when someone has preached something that robs you of your assurance that it's somehow good.

22:28

And I thought, yeah, you didn't hear what I said. You should be saying, pastor, thank you for encouraging me and comforting me.

22:35

Jesus is a wonderful savior. I think that quote that you read earlier,

22:41

Pat, about troubled consciences is really the thing, because if Christians are going to have any joy and peace in believing, like that's a biblical category, right?

22:53

So that you might have joy and peace in believing. Well, you can't mix the law and the gospel then, because as soon as you start to weave works into the fabric of our standing before the

23:03

Lord now or in the future, you've given it all away. Because any sane person is going to assess his or her life and say, yeah,

23:14

I mean, even if there's some fruit, even if there's some evidence, even if there's some love, like I could love a lot more.

23:20

And hey, yeah, maybe I don't engage in things that I used to engage in, but I could sin a lot less.

23:27

And you know that there is no way that what you're abstaining from or what you're doing could ever earn you something before the

23:34

Lord, because you know Him. He's holy and He's righteous and He's altogether good.

23:41

And so how could this end well for me, right, is the question. And so that troubled conscience peace, you're robbed of all joy, you're robbed of all peace, and then doubt and fear and dread are introduced back into the equation.

23:54

And we functionally undo the adoption that the Lord has given us.

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I mean, like this is a Romans 8, 15 thing. We've not been given a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but we've been given a spirit of adoption by whom we call

24:07

God Father. And I think all of those things are jeopardized when the law and the gospel are collapsed.

24:13

Not only do you lose the law and all of its holiness, and you can no longer use it lawfully, first use to show us our sin and drive us to Christ, second use to restrain corruption, third use to guide our living in Jesus.

24:23

You can't do that well, but you've given the gospel away because you now are preaching a gospel of sincere obedience, not a gospel of Christ for you, for your forgiveness and your righteousness and your eternal life.

24:38

And that makes all of the difference on a Tuesday morning when I'm tying my shoes, man, getting ready to go do whatever it is

24:44

I'm about to do. If I know in spite of the ups, downs, trials, and travails, it doesn't matter if my week is devastatingly bad or if every time

24:52

I pull the lever, it's trip sevens. It doesn't matter. It's like I know that I'm safe and secure, and that moves the needle in my heart.

25:27

What do you guys say to people who object to the law gospel distinction, and they say that's just a

25:33

Lutheran doctrine? Can I make a historical nerd observation first,

25:41

John? You say something edifying, and then I'll say something nerdy. We'll do law gospel.

25:52

I think that we can give credit to where there might be some people who help bring some clarity, but that's like to say

25:59

Athanasius is the only one who ever really understood or taught the Trinity. That's not necessarily true.

26:06

He was helpful in arguing for it in a time that was necessary. But I would say that if you read the confessions of the

26:12

Westminster and the London Baptist, it's very clear that they hold to a law gospel distinction. The Reformers understood this distinction.

26:20

Belgic Confession as well, three forms of unity. This is why there's three uses of the law, because we understand that there's a distinction between the law and the gospel.

26:29

That would be my response. Maybe the way in which it's worded, law gospel distinction, might be very

26:34

Lutheran, but the practice is very Reformed. I mean, William Perkins, he's going to say…

26:42

He was Missouri Synod, right? Oh my goodness. So, William Perkins is

26:48

Reformed, and he's going to say, I mean, says verbatim that this is not a Lutheran doctrine. This is a Reformed doctrine, meaning it's

26:55

Reformed as well. Theodore Beza, who is obviously a student of Calvin's, writes on this issue.

27:02

And then you have, obviously, in the tradition of the Merrow men, you've got Cahoon and others. I mean, Thomas Boston writes beautifully on law and gospel and covenant of works and grace and things of this nature.

27:11

Through history in the Reformed tradition, there have been many who have affirmed the law and gospel distinction.

27:17

It's not exclusively Lutheran, though we rejoice over the fact that we have this in common with our Lutheran brothers and sisters, because we all,

27:24

Lutheran or Reformed alike, we hail from the Reformation, and so there's much that we have in common, certainly.

27:32

That's good. Our Lutheran friends have helped many of us better understand this distinction, and thank God for that.

27:38

I mean, Rod Rosenblatt just very recently went to be with the Lord, and I think he's helped many think well about law and gospel.

27:47

So guys, is it in the Bible? We've been talking about this. We've been waxing eloquent for 20 -some -odd minutes.

27:53

Is this even a biblical category, law and gospel distinction? How would you respond? I wonder how many commands are in the

28:00

Bible. I'm sure someone's done the research. You haven't tallied them up, Pat? I haven't done it.

28:05

I haven't done it. Not only have I not done them obediently, I don't even know how many of them there are.

28:11

I realize there have been Jewish historians that say there's 600 plus requirements.

28:18

But regardless, we know Jesus boils it all down when he, in Luke chapter 10, you know, we've talked about it before, but it is do this and live.

28:26

It is love God with heart, soul, mind, strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. And the context in the discussion is what must

28:32

I do to gain eternal life? So he's not talking about how to be more successful or how to be more fulfilled.

28:40

How do I gain eternal life? And it is by obedience. It is by law. And then to go to John's point earlier, which is so important,

28:48

Jesus has come to me and I will give you rest. And he's talking about Sabbath, ultimate rest, because the law is so exacting and devastating.

28:58

And then you even have the self -righteous Jewish leaders of the time. You know, burden upon burden upon burden.

29:07

And so where is it in the Bible? I'm at least going to start in those two passages. Yeah, there's an ongoing debate, which hopefully it's healthy and it's honoring to each other and glorifies the

29:19

Lord between our Reformed and Dispensational brothers. In that, you know, sometimes they say that this is a hermeneutic placed upon the text, that it doesn't come from the text.

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And really, that's what we're trying to argue from here is that it really does come from the text.

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I'll give an example where we do this all the time. We have to, where as we read the whole entire story, we learn theology.

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We learn about the aspects of the truth of the nature of God and the nature of men. That helps us understand interpreting passages that can be complicated at times, right?

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So when we do this with the Trinity, we understand that in Genesis 1, we don't know about the

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Trinity, but by the end of the book, we do. And so we go back and realize that Christ was the one who created the heavens and the earth, even though we don't know that in Genesis 1.

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We can say, I'm not putting the hermeneutic of Jesus on the text in Genesis 1, because John says that Jesus says

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He was the creator and sustainer of the world. So later in the text, I could come back and not reinterpret the

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Bible, but it brings illumination and it brings clarification. And so we would say the law gospel distinction must be put upon the text because there are things about the law later on, specifically in the

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Old Testament that says the law was designed to expose us to the holiness of God, but also the sinfulness of man.

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And then later on, we learn that the law was designed to produce righteousness because we know that Jesus is the one who ends up producing the righteousness that no one else can produce.

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Therefore, the gospel becomes the good news of what was done. So when you look at the entirety of the

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Bible from beginning to end, you understand that there are these two categories, and when you mix them, you actually lose the power of the gospel and you lose the weight of the law.

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And that is not because we're saying that. Paul, I think, is constantly making this argument throughout his letters.

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I think Galatians is a good example of a gospel letter. He's like, what are you guys doing? Why are you going to begin by the work of the gospel and now continue to fulfill the obligations of your life by the works of the law?

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That's a great law gospel passage and paradigm I think is important. So it's not something that we put down on the text because we inherited it from Lutherans or the

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Confession. It's something that we look throughout all of Scripture and go, okay, this is a safe way to look at all of Scripture like we would

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Trinity, the nature of man, and the nature of God. It puts down on the text because it comes from the text.

31:55

Justin Perdue Yeah, so how is it in the Bible? Where do I start? I agree with everything you guys have said.

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The letter to the Romans, so Romans 2 .13, it's not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

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Paul then mows everybody down in Romans 3 .9 and following and makes it plain that the law holds everybody accountable and no flesh will ever be justified by works of the law.

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But now the righteousness of God has been revealed apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for everyone who believes.

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So you get that whole piece of how the righteousness that God requires, he gives, and it is that very righteousness of the law as Paul makes very plain tracking through the rest of the book of Romans.

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In particular, you get to Romans 8 .4 where in Jesus Christ, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us.

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Why? Because he kept the law. Then Romans 9 .30 through like 10 .4, you get this.

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Israel, this is remarkable that Paul writes these words. He says that Israel pursued a law that would lead to righteousness.

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Wow, right? But then they didn't succeed in reaching it. Why? Because they pursued it as though that could be achieved by works, right?

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So what was the great error of Israel? It was that they sought to establish their own righteousness under the law rather than Romans 10 .3,

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submitting to God's righteousness, right? And then Romans 10 .4, because Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

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So that's where I start. Galatians. Pat, do you want to pile on that? I don't want to quench the spirit. Go for it.

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I'm good. Romans 10 is like a broken record, right? Just go there again and again and again, because it's...

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So Galatians 3, John, you mentioned it. Deuteronomy 27 .26,

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cursed is everyone who does not abide by everything written in the book of the law and do it, right? So Paul quotes that.

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And then he says, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, right? So we're cursed because we haven't done the law.

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Christ becomes a curse to die for us. Then Galatians 4 .4 and 5, at the right time, God sent his son born of woman.

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Born what? Under the law. So that he might redeem those who are under the law, right?

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Acts 13, Paul in Antioch is preaching, and he says that through Jesus Christ, you can be set free from everything that you could not be set free from by the law of Moses, right?

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So you get this whole thing again, where Jesus is doing something that the law couldn't do. Justin, you're getting so revved up.

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You sound like a quarterback or something, you know? We could do this all day. Shouting out

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Acts 13, Romans 2 .13, I like it,

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I like it. Bro, we could do this all day. The point is, we could do this all day. Yeah, I do think people get confused or nervous or misled sometimes by people who don't like this.

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And they say, well, that's just Mosaic law, you know? And we would say, no, yeah, it's true.

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Jesus was born under that administration of the law. That's true. He was born as an

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Israelite. All of that's true. But there's always the moral law built in even the

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Mosaic law. As a covenant of works. As a covenant of works. So regardless, trans -testamentally, to make things up, we would say it's always been true that human beings are required to love their creator appropriately.

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So heart, soul, mind, and strength, neighbor as yourself, that's old, that's new. So don't be misled by that.

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Dear listeners to Theocast and the Pactum, we acknowledge that is an administration.

35:35

No, amen. I'd like to highlight some confusion that exists kind of broadly, maybe with a law and gospel paradigm, if you guys will permit it.

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And we can edit this out if it's no good. So there was a video released by a theologian relatively well known.

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There was something he said in the beginning of the video that was not received well. But then later in the video, he said this, that if he had an opportunity to speak to a congregation that he perceived to be effectively nominal, right, like Christian in name only, so false professors, right, he would preach on the doctrine of the new birth.

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And I thought, that's interesting. I don't think that's what I would preach at all. I think if I were preaching to a congregation that I understood to be nominal,

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Christian in name only, what would I do? I would preach the law and all of its holiness.

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Like you said, Pat, you absolutely let it rip on the law. It's a revelation of God's character who gave it.

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God never changes. His law never changes. God is perfect and holy, and so is the standard, personal, perfect, perpetual obedience.

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Good luck with that. How are you doing? Then having done that, you herald

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Jesus Christ to these people as the law keeper and as the one who died to fulfill the law's curse in the place of anyone who would ever trust in him, right, and then hold him out in his triumphant resurrection, vindicated in all of his work, pointing back to that covenant of redemption, how

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God had determined to save a people from before the foundations of the world, and Jesus is the Savior. Trust him.

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That's my message. If I'm going to be preaching to a people that are nominal, but yet we have guys running around, guys who know better, running around saying,

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I'm going to tell people that they need to be born again. Okay, so just to think out loud together here on this episode, so I'd be okay doing the new birth, but in a certain sense, if I say you must be born again, how about this?

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You must be born again. That's what Jesus says. Is that law or gospel? No, amen. That's law, brother.

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That's law, baby, but then what does he do? Yeah, so that's the requirement.

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You must be born again is law. That's right. No, that's good, dude. So you must be born again,

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John 3, is law. What is it? It's the requirement. I'm just thinking out loud.

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Notice he doesn't say, here's how to do it. That's right. But it is the requirement.

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But then what does he say at the end of that? He says, just as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness, so must the

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Son of Man be lifted up there in John 3. I wouldn't mind preaching John 3. I would do that.

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But you're going to preach the serpent lifted up in the wilderness as Christ on the cross for sinners.

38:33

Absolutely. Amen. Yeah, well, and this is what we do with those passages. Often when Jesus, when even

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Nicodemus is coming in, it's like, you're really confusing me here, Jesus. You know, you're not making it clear.

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And he's like, no, I'm clear. I'm just destroying your entire ecosystem that you've created.

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And I love when he tells Nicodemus, he's like, look, you're confused by this because you haven't been listening.

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The Spirit is the one who does the work. Just like where the wind blows and we don't really know where it comes from, so does the work of the

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Holy Spirit. And Nicodemus kind of walks away going, what just happened? He is the unique teacher of the

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Jews, and he doesn't know. And it's straight Ezekiel 36 and 37 is what

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Jesus is doing there, too, with the water and the Spirit and the wind blowing and all those kinds of things.

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And then life, it's like, oh, OK, there's that. And faith comes by hearing and hearing through the word of Christ.

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Faith does come by hearing. Amen. So this is a fun one. I got one more question I want to throw at you guys. Yeah, please.

39:35

All right, Pat, I'll let you answer this one. You ready? I'm ready. Pick up your cross and follow me.

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Law or gospel and why? Take up your cross and follow me. It's law. It's law because it's not about the work of Christ for you, right?

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It's a requirement. Now, if I'm unconverted, if I'm not in Christ by faith, it functions as first use of the law, right?

40:00

Because I'm not going to be a faithful disciple and I'm not going to meet up the exacting standards.

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But if I'm in Christ and I've trusted Him and He's my Savior, then it's third use of the law, right?

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It's very different. So it depends on your status. But either case, it's what

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God requires. It is law. And if anybody thinks they can get to heaven, anyone thinks they can gain eternal life by being a good follower of Jesus, they're self -deceived.

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Follow me is law. It's totally law. And hear what we're saying and what we're not saying.

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It is good because the law is good. It is righteous and holy. Absolutely.

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But it is law. And you shouldn't follow Jesus. You should follow Jesus. The problem is you're not very good at it.

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So Jesus had to die to make atonement for your failure to follow Him the way He should be followed.

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And He had to live for you to do it right for you. And then once you're united to Christ by faith, you have assurance.

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Take up your cross. Follow Him out of gratitude. Once you see the stuff, guys, right?

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You can't unsee it. It's just fantastic. You can't unsee it. Two faces out of the two. But Pat, what did

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Jesus mean by that when He said it to His disciples? Just from a context standpoint, I think it helps people understand when we do this law gospel.

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So we explain what it wasn't. But what was Jesus trying to do when He said that to them? Why would

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He say that? Well, I think since I don't know their exact status, who was converted?

41:36

Who wasn't converted? That's why I was kind of straddling the fence a little bit as far as. Right. Depends on the listener.

41:43

Yeah, it depends on the listener. That's what He's trying to accomplish. What were you thinking about, John? No, I agree in that for those,

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I think it's for anyone who would hear that and say, first of all, first of all, we romanticize the cross.

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Jesus hadn't died yet and died. So He's like, what? Roman execution.

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You want me to pick up my Roman execution and follow you? That doesn't make any sense at all.

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He was trying to utterly destroy any confidence that they had that there was victory in their life based upon obedience to the law or following Him.

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There was no victory for their life. There was salvation through Him or there was death. And I think that's what

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He means is to point that out. And I think He's trying to destroy a theology of glory as well, because in the context of Mark's gospel in particular,

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Peter has just confessed that Jesus is the Christ. And then Jesus starts to talk about dying.

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And Peter's like, hey, bro, you shouldn't talk like that. You're the Messiah. You shouldn't be talking about death and suffering.

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You should be talking about glory. And then Jesus rebukes him and says, get behind me, Satan. And then He commences to say that this is what it's going to look like for everybody who follows

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Me. So I think He's doing that as well to where we understand that in this life, there will be suffering and weakness and that glory comes later through Him in that resurrection life that we're promised.

43:08

So here's another one. Last observation, maybe for me, because I know we're running short on time. Jesus in the gospels.

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This, I think, is important for people, for the listener out there, especially if you're newer to this. I think if you read the gospels and you listen to Jesus speak to different groups of people, you are going to leave, if you don't have these categories, you are going to leave incredibly confused.

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Because in some instances, Jesus looks at groups of people and says, keep the law. What do you need for eternal life?

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Keep the law. In other instances, He looks at people and He says, believe in Me. And so what do people do without the categories of, well, in some instances,

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Jesus is talking to people who are trusting in themselves that they're righteous, or He's talking to people who think that they can achieve righteousness under the law, and He says, you need to keep the commandments.

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But then in other places, He's talking to people who know they have no righteousness, and He says, trust Me. Come to Me and I'll give you rest.

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If you don't have those categories of law and gospel and how He speaks differently to different groups of people, you're going to end up mashing the two together, and you're going to say, well, what do we need in order to have eternal life?

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You're going to say, well, it's kind of both. We need faith in Jesus and we need law -keeping, which then gets us back to that problem we talked about earlier about the troubled conscience.

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How much law -keeping? How well? And nobody can define that standard, right? So don't turn

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Jesus into a schizophrenic who's talking out of both sides of His mouth, right? Instead, have categories of law and gospel where He, on the one hand, says, do this and you'll live, and on the other hand,

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He says, believe in Me and you'll have life, realizing that faith in Christ provides righteousness under the law, because He is the law -keeper in our place.

44:49

In a similar vein, I think it's really helpful if people read, for example, Matthew's gospel and Jesus does all of these things.

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So is He just a good example? He teaches all of these things. Is He just telling us what we must do?

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Well, if we read it from the very beginning in chapter one where He's named, name Him Jesus, because He will save His people from their sins.

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Like a broken record, don't forget that when you're in chapter four. It's the temptation of Jesus.

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Just don't ever forget that. All of the stuff He's doing, He's doing to be the

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Savior. And that just changes everything, if you can just remember that. Matthew, for example, from just being a book about how -to's in moralism.

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It's about how -to's for Jesus and how He saved His people from their sins. It's so good if you can keep that in mind.

45:49

Amen. That's good. I think I got the title for today's episode. Jesus wasn't schizophrenic.

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It's a little clumsy, but you know. Your marketing team can do something with it. Do something with it.

46:01

But it does make it sound like Jesus can't figure out if you're going to save by grace or law. If you don't understand law, gospel distinction, for sure.

46:11

I think maybe there's pushback against this law, gospel thing. Also, it's because it does require each of us to say, if we've not been doing it right, to say,

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I've not been doing it right. Sorry for the sermon. Sorry for the first time I preached through Matthew.

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Sorry for the first time I preached through Romans. You have to say, I did it wrong.

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I'm sorry. But it's better to do that than to just buckle down and bear down, continue to confuse people and rob assurance and all those kinds of things.

46:45

So we should do an invitation or an altar call or something for all Bible preachers. Let's have a come to Jesus moment and repent of bad preaching.

46:54

I certainly have. Yeah. Well, this is why there was three versions to Calvin's Institutes. He kept learning and growing and adding.

47:03

If you read early Spurgeon and later Spurgeon, there's a difference as well. He got a little softer in his ears as he went along.

47:12

Good stuff. Well, we're not going to answer this, but we can maybe throw this into another podcast later.

47:17

But when you're even thinking about Jesus and he says to you, depart from me.

47:24

I never knew you. Justin and I actually did a whole episode on that from a lot of gospel extinction. So you can go listen to that.

47:30

We'll put that in the show notes. Hey, brother, we're so thank you. Thanks for taking 45, 50 minutes out of your day and loving on our listeners, loving on me and Justin.

47:39

We're so thankful for you. I'm thankful that we're in the trench together. It's a great battle that we fight. It's the good fight of faith and it's a joy.

47:47

So thankful for your guest, for you, Justin, and for you, John. Yeah. Last reminder, go get

47:52

Pat's book. Go listen to Pat's podcast. I'm thankful for cross -pollinization.

48:01

A lot of keywords between podcasts with Purdue and I can't come up with a keyword for you,

48:08

John, but pastor. There you go. Oh, it encourages my heart is when people recommend podcasts on social media.

48:17

And I always see Theocast and Pactum. I'm always like, yes, that makes me happy. Then you get nervous because some of the other ones that are mentioned.

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for everyone. Thank you, brother. We'll talk to you guys soon. Bye.