March 18, 2019 Show with Brian Kachelmeier on “Reading Isaiah with Luther” (Part 2)

The Conscience, Natural Law, and Luther’s Reading of Isaiah

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister, George Norcross, in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of Humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 18th day of March, 2019.

And today, we are going to be conducting part two of an interview that we began two weeks ago on Monday, I'm sorry, on Tuesday, March 5th, with Rev. Brian Ketchelmeyer, who received his Bachelor of Arts in Religious Studies from the University of New Mexico, and his Master of Divinity degree from Concordia Theological Seminary.

He's the first pastor of Redeemer Evangelical Lutheran Church in Los Alamos, New Mexico, a lecturer on the global broadcast Redeemer Theological Academy, frequent guest on Issues, etc., and Old Testament teacher for the Wittenberg Academy.

And as I said, we are addressing part two of Reading Isaiah with Luther, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Brian Ketchelmeyer. And I want to give our listeners our email address right away if they have questions for Pastor Brian Ketchelmeyer on Reading Isaiah with Luther.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Well, we already have addressed a lot of other issues, including your own personal background, including some of the differences that Lutherans have with Calvinists and other evangelical Protestants.

But today, let's try to discuss the heart of the matter, Reading Isaiah with Luther, and the subject that is really throughout this book is Luther and the conscience. Now if you could, tell us about what you mean by the human conscience.

Obviously this is something that most people are familiar with this concept. We all even remember from Pinocchio, we have Jiminy Cricket telling us, always let your conscience be your guide. And that first and foremost must be thrown out as something unbiblical because not everybody has a conscience that is trained by the scriptures and is guided by the Holy Spirit.

We have a lot of people following their consciences that are lost and devoid of the Holy Spirit that should not be following their consciences. But if you could, what exactly do you mean by the conscience and why was it an important issue with Luther and Isaiah?

Yeah, it's written on the heart. So all humanity does have this natural law, but as you, the idea of a conscience...

From Romans 1, would that be like a core area of the scripture of what you are speaking, of which you are speaking?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, exactly. It just cannot be...

Now, why is Isaiah such an important figure from the Old Testament? Why is he so... Was he so important to Luther and why is he so important within Christendom and why should he be so important with every Christian that is alive today?

Yeah, they arise on because she's the one that's going to have the likeness of people who are led astray. The written word always gives us the imagination from a corrupted heart, idolatry. When you reset that conscience, you reset the conscience to primary purpose in his whole book.

He's decentralized on the... Isaiah is...

Praise God. And why is Luther... Of course, you being a Lutheran minister would think that Luther is a safe guide, although not an infallible and inerrant guide, but a safe guide into the scriptures. And specifically, why is Luther a safe guide into helping us understand Isaiah and what he has to say?

Now, again, and that's where he... These are going to be future... Isaiah is kind of the one who constantly is going up against even the religious who has gone astray that Isaiah is confronting, in particular with the conscience.

Conscience... And in Isaiah chapter 6... Conscience...

He's...

I'm a man of... So he's not... Which leads to... Kiah. Word of God. Kiah is troubled in his conscience and he goes to the... Luther will see kind of preachers and you really being these men, so Isaiah becomes just a very important book in that formation.

Okay, well, what do you mean by the cultural cultivation of the conscience in the first chapter of your book?

Again, the idea of the... Your conscience... Is my guide. And this is where we get into trouble with morality. Society, they... Culture is trying to tell us that, no, no... Interesting, I think that in our culture, when you have...

Into a submission that we must now agree... Taking place in our society... It's getting louder and louder and louder... Conscience is... We know that this is... Louder than our conscience... For abortion, which comes right out of this whole...

Yes, and it's interesting that in our lifetime, yours and mine, we both very readily remember, because it wasn't that long ago, where the battle cry of the left used to be, you cannot impose your morality on mankind, you are a puritanical totalitarian dictatorship that must have their power diminished so that people can have freedom to live and think and act as they see fit, not as some elitist group of puritanical Bible thumpers who are basically Neanderthals and morons, thinking in an archaic way.

That is no longer really the battle cry, although some of their rhetoric contains some of those elements, it's... Today, it is... We have the true morality, and you must follow our principles of morality, and their morality includes...

It is loving, compassionate, and accepting to not only permit men to marry men and women to marry women, but to celebrate with them. And in fact, to be moral, you must celebrate with them. You can't just tolerate them.

And it is the loving and compassion and moral thing to give a woman the right to decide in the privacy of her doctor's office or in her minister's office what she does with a baby that is growing inside her womb, whether or not she gives birth to it or has it ripped to pieces in an abortion mill, or whether she lets it die in a shoebox from dehydration and malnutrition after it has accidentally, quote-unquote, been born alive during an abortion attempt.

So, it is not just that we cannot push or demand that mankind accept and bow to our biblical morality. They have their own idea of morality that they are trying to enforce as law.

And I think that... You're the one who's... Rating in this... That might be good. Actually, it is good. And everybody's on the same page, and they think they're wise. They're wise in their own size. What I want to also...

Good. This is coming. Society, it's the...

In fact, we can't just isolate this to mainline Protestants. Let's not forget Pope Francis.

Oh, fair enough. You're seeing this more and more prominent in the so-called denomination...

And I think I have a strong feeling you will agree with me that we who are Christians in the body of Christ, who love worshiping our Lord and regularly attend the corporate gathering of the saints to not only worship God, but to partake in the ordinances and or sacraments as you choose to call them.

And we have to be careful that we are not entirely and exclusively looking at this as an us-versus-them situation where we are morally pure. We are without the negative effects of this cultural deforming of the conscience.

It's those in the liberal mainlines and in the liberal Catholic Church and liberal folks who are not religious, or at least they claim to be not religious, but everybody is religious in one way or another, even the atheists.

Because in the 21st century we don't even realize the many ways that our own consciences have been seared because of even what we are constantly ingesting from the media and things surrounding us. Things that would have made Christians blush less than a century ago are now mainstay in the recreation and entertainment of Christians.

Things that would have perhaps even gotten you excommunicated less than a hundred years ago are now being promoted by even conservative evangelical pastors from pulpits and that kind of thing. Would you agree with me?

Exactly. And that's why we believe the Holy Lord. It's not an ostentatious believing center or crucified for us.

Amen. Amen.

And we have to go to our first station break right now. If you would like to join us with a question for Pastor Brian Ketchelmeyer, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

As always, at least please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

And I can understand if we are talking about the conscience, that there might be some people who have things that are troubling their consciences that they don't want to make public by identifying themselves.

So I understand if you want to remain anonymous for something personal and private like that. But if it's a general question on theology and understanding this subject, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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We are discussing his book, Reading Isaiah with Luther, a publication of Concordia Publishing House. And we thank the folks at Concordia Publishing House for always helping us out with donations of free books to give away when we are interviewing one of their authors.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com, if you'd like to submit a question for Pastor Brian Ketzelmeyer on the subject at hand today, Reading Isaiah with Luther.

And to get a more specific idea of where we are heading, as we had said in the first half hour of the program, we're talking about the importance of God's use of the human conscience in the life of a believer.

And we do have a listener in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, Susan Margaret, who has a question for you, Pastor Brian. And Susan Margaret asks, how do we maintain a balance when it comes to our consciences, where, on the one hand, we have our brothers and sisters who are extremely right-wing fundamentalists who at times are no better than the Roman Catholic Church in binding upon the consciences of Christians things that are not even biblical.

I'm talking about specific rules, regulations, and laws that are not a part of the God-breathed canon, but out of the imaginations and preferences of ministers and others belonging to that extreme fundamentalist group.

How do we partake in things that God gives us liberty to partake in without having a troubled conscience, without also violating biblical principles by going to the other extreme of licentiousness?

Yeah, I think that if you have some kind of inner piety, it's a key. If you're a Christ for fraternalism, on the other hand, a form of piety all down the street, or if you're my form of personal piety, my own choice, then you're the center.

Immediately what comes to mind in my own life is that I am a former drunkard, and I abstain from any consumption of alcohol. I think it would be foolish of me to even tempt the Lord in the way that he has transformed my life by dabbling in alcohol consumption.

But at the same time, I have to be very careful not to judge my brothers and sisters who can responsibly and moderately have a drink or two that contains alcohol in it. I have to be very careful. Now, I realize that I can also point out when I think a brother or sister is violating a biblical command against drunkenness, which is a damning sin, but I have to be also careful not to go overboard and just say that no one should have any alcohol at all in their lives because it's a deadly and dangerous problem, and since I succumbed to this in a big way as a drunkard, nobody else should have it either.

Right. I mean, piety and pietism, like it's a Lutheran concept, but that form of fasting is your personal choice, and that's fine. But as soon as you now demand that everybody else do it, and Jesus' interactions with the Pharisees are hypocrites.

And I think that with hypocrite from the Greek, hypocrino, we put under, and crino is to judge, and say one thing and do another, but do exactly what he's going to do.

And just so you know, as a former Roman Catholic who is now a Reformed Baptist, I gave up Lent for Lent. But I have learned not to be overly judgmental about my evangelical Protestant brothers and sisters who maintain things like Lent and so on.

I may have disagreements over those things, but I think we all have to be very cautious about being overly condemnatory, critical, judgmental about things like that, that are part of tradition of our church.

And remember, for you hardcore Calvinist friends of mine who think, or even fundamentalists for that matter, who think that all tradition is wrong. Well, you're wrong, because you have traditions, even if you don't recognize them.

And when it becomes wrong is when you are mandating a tradition that is unbiblical. Would I be right on that in your opinion, Pastor Brian?

Yeah, that's the same thing as pietism. By the way, I forgot to tell Susan Margaret of Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, that you.

Have won the book, Reading Isaiah with Luther, compliments of our friends at Concordia Publishing House for donating these books, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, who will be shipping the book out to you at no cost to you, or to Iron Trepans Iron Radio.

Thanks again for the excellent question on Iron Trepans Iron Radio. Well, you have in Chapter 2 of your book something that you've already covered to a large degree in our first half hour, but if you have anything to add to the role of the prophet in the conscience.

The clear understanding of right. I'm going to hide my eyes. You're pleasing me. You're just basically pleasing yourself. And the idea is that when their hands are held up and they say, but look at all of the blood that's being shed.

You like blood, right God? You like sacrifice, right God? And God is going to explain to them over and over again that it is not true. It's that law to wake them up in pagan cities. I mean, that's a huge difference in this preaching office.

But then Isaiah gets to the point where he says, but yet, this purpose that you would hear the message of the Messiah, the forgiveness of sins. And that's where you get to it. It says Yahweh, the sending of the prophet, you've got the conscience that God alone is right.

And as the people of Israel, they have walking in darkness, recognize your sin.

Idolatry, the Image of God, and False Piety

Now, again, with Chapter 3, idolatry, idolatry, and the conscience, you've already addressed a lot of that in regard to pietism, in regard to people thinking so highly of themselves that what troubles or salves their consciences is more important than what God has to say.

But do you have anything to add to that in regard to this very important theme of idolatry and the conscience?

Made us originally in His image and likeness, forming us, molding us, and shaping us. Idolatry is now you with the corrupt. Looks a lot like me, the deity, precisely because you worship. It was always in your image that teaches you to do with your hands.

The emphasis is the work of your hands.

Now, I am reminded years ago, one of the few times I ever saw comedian and talk show host Bill Maher silenced during his program. There was a Christian on the program who was an unwavering Calvinist. And he was talking about the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality, I believe, specifically.

And basically saying that if you do not repent of this sin and other sins, you will be cast into the lake of fire and you will be condemned for eternity in hell. And Bill Maher retorted, that is not the Jesus that most of us have come to know and love.

And the Christian guest responded, Mr. Maher, you don't know the first thing about Jesus Christ. And Bill Maher was at least temporarily silenced, because I think he began to realize his guest was correct.

But Bill Maher and multitudes, countless billions of others are creating a Jesus, either with greeting cards as their blueprint, or Hollywood and television, or from their own imagination, right?

Imagination, that's the problem. It's not God. It's images in the Old Testament, image. What God is like in the image of what the people of image worship. Are you going to like and compare God's likeness with an idol?

Well, these are silly. And this is where the prophets will mock and say, it's on it. You know, part of that wood is in the other part of the wood, that mockery. And Luther will see this same kind of idolatry, of piety, in which they were trying to, and he'll mock that you've got wrapped around you as a monk, that you've got God's sight.

Well, that's what these monastic orders are doing, in the presence of Christ. They're looking to the image of God, that we want to see, not these man

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. And as always, this is the elongated break that we need to take, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs Iron Trip and Zion Radio twice daily in a pre-recorded form, they need to use this time in the center of the show for their own local public service announcements and commercials, in order to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida.

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And I have a special favor to ask of you all in regard to the New American Standard Bible who have renewed their sponsorship of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Please consider, if you are not a pastor or deacon yourself, or somebody involved in decision-making in your congregation that would include the purchasing of Bibles for your pews in your church, please consider approaching your pastor and deacons and anybody in decision-making authority with the idea of purchasing new pew Bibles for your entire church building from nasbible .com, the New American Standard Bible.

Whether it be because your Bibles that are already there are falling apart and filled with children's graffiti, or perhaps your church leaders have outgrown the version that you've been using for a long time.

Perhaps you want to move on to a more modern but faithful and reliable translation. Move on from the King James Bible to something like the NASB, which is considered to be very accurate and more of a word-for-word translation from the original languages into English.