January 11, 2018 Show with Michael D. Wilder & Dr. Lynn Wieting Wilder on “Leaving Mormonism: Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds” (Part 1)

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Introduction and Proverbs 27:17

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 11th day of January 2017.

I'm delighted to have a Returning guest and a first-time guest at the same time today. They are husband and wife. For the very first time we have the privilege and honor to have Michael D Wilder on the program and his wife.

Who is a returning guest? Dr. Lynn Kay Wilder are both founders of ex-mormon Christians United for Jesus and Michael Wilder and dr Lynn Wilder are former members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Now biblical Christians as the name of their ministry would indicate.

Lynn was once a tenured professor at Mormon Church owned and operated Brigham Young University with a doctorate in emotional behavioral disorders. Lynn is a researcher scholar journal editor and author of more than 60 refereed publications and Five books in both her professional field and that of faith.

Mike and Lynn left the LDS Church and founded the ministry ex-mormon Christians United for Jesus, which is found at Unveiling Mormonism comm that's www .unveilingmormonism .com. Michael D Wilder is a husband father grandfather businessman speaker author and co-founder of the ministry and He once served as a high priest in the LDS Church in that role.

He held numerous leadership callings including high counselor bishopric member and Mormon temple worker, etc. The Wilders left Mormonism for a relationship with Jesus Christ when they read the Bible and saw Conflicts with Mormon doctrine and teaching and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you Michael D Wilder for the very first time and to welcome you back.

Dr. Lynn Kay Wilder. Well, it's great to be on the line with you guys. And now you're way far north, right? I am in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Oh my goodness the home of Dickinson College.

Which sadly is now a very liberal school, although it began as a Christian school some.

Couple of hundred years ago, I believe. Yeah, but you know, you know, you've had some cold weather up there, right?

Yes, it's finally warming up though. Yeah, we know. I Thought you were gonna give me a Johnny Carson joke there. It was so cold in Florida yesterday. And I'm wondering did I.

Did I.

Misread or Misunderstand something in your bio or is that a typo Lynn? Where I said, let's see. I'm looking for it here. Oh. You're the author of more than 60 refereed publications.

Correctly, you must be a scholar yourself. Yes, actually those are refereed journal articles most of them, okay.

No, I know what refereed would mean in a sporting event. But what would it mean in this regard?

Academia that means other scholars in your area have Approved the work or allowed it to be published. See. Well, I just revealed that I'm not a scholar. Well, you are in the Bible Chris, that's for sure.

Well, you know what I'm gonna do before we even get into Your stories and also the book that Lynn contributed to leaving Mormonism. Why've why for scholars change their mind? Before we even get into that.

I want to play a clip from a Band that your son is involved in called Adams Road if you could first tell our listeners something about Adams Road.

Well Adams Road started with Mormon missionaries who had come to faith in the biblical Jesus and so in Adams Road ministry. You have our second son Matt our third son Micah our son-in-law Joseph Warren all three former Mormon missionaries and They have a young woman with them now who is out of polygamy out of one of the polygon Wow.

Out of Mexico, which has opened up a whole new area for our ministry. Wow. Oh, that is something.

Yeah, I've interviewed at least two Individuals one a woman and one a man who are both published authors who were rescued out of the fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who who were a part of polygamist families.

And one was a polygamist wife one of multiple wives of a Mormon and It was truly fascinating Truly fascinating interviews. In fact, if anybody later on wants to go to iron sharpens iron radio .com and Type in the search engine polygamy you may be able to find those interviews unless of course They are from my old show.

In fact now that I'm remembering it. They are from a old show. So those Interviews are not yet Archived on the new website, but I can get them for you if you email me a request. Hopefully, we'll eventually get all the old iron sharpens iron radio shows from when we were broadcasting out of New York on the new website, so I apologize for that but So this is a wonderful band.

I became aware of them years ago when I heard them on television. They were guests on some Christian program and I can't even remember what program it was and I was so disappointed that when Adams Road was Passing through Carlisle They could not stop by the studio because we were hoping that they could all be right here in the studio with me To be interviewed but hopefully that will happen at some point in the in the future if we can't get them back in the studio we will get them on the phone just as you two are and there was some kind of Unexpected gig that they had that brought them farther away from Carlisle than they expected and then they got stuck somewhere Where they had bad cell phone reception.

But I'm gonna play a clip from the Adams Road One of their albums and this is called Way truth in life tongues of fire. I'm not sure which is the album and which is the song but here it is.

Entered by the door But tries to climb in by another way.

That was the song tongues of fire from the the album way truth and life and what a beautiful Talented group that is and thank you very much for providing me with the music today dr. Wilder and Now we get into the part of the program where we're going to discuss your story.

And I'd like to also let our listeners know that they can join us on the air with a question of their own. The email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris ar n z n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Please only remain anonymous. If you are asking about a personal and private matter. Let's say you are a Mormon and you have questions you want to ask. Or perhaps you're Disagreeing with something that the Wilders are saying and you don't feel comfortable to draw attention to your identity.

Well, we can understand that and we will grant your request any other question that you have that involves a personal and private matter. We will respect your wishes. But other than that, please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Well Michael since we have not yet had you on the program I'd like to hear about how you came to be a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to begin with and what your life was like within the church.

What is I say that being when you get down and a lot of people I mean the songage in Mormonism when you have those dear Mormon missionaries and it sounds the way they teach it if you have a limited understanding of the Bible.

Therefore you kind of get the fact that there's and the people, you know when we were investigating Mormonism loved on it. It's like he adopted me obviously, you know. My mid-twenties trying to decide whether to go and they just to what it.

So that when you have your dear is come in and they start teaching you and you let them and please invite them in. It'll let them in if you don't know very much about the Bible. I don't think you should let them in because you'll get confused.

Talk about prophets. They'll talk about you talk about the law and and they'll talk about you know Jesus dying for our sins and all these things everything that sounds so logical in Christianity. Yeah.

Yeah, I've heard that Mormons Very often have the same vocabulary but a different dictionary. Yes, I have a very good friend who is a former Jehovah's Witness who became a Christian by the grace of God.

And she is a very talented Christian singer. In fact, I would love for Adams Road to meet her because she's she has her own CDs as well. And she is a really phenomenally gifted woman. She speaks at women's retreats and Conferences and so forth telling her testimony and she was on some fairly well-known Christian television programs giving her testimony, but she Showed me a screenshot about a year ago of an on Of a internet discussion she was having with Glenn Beck and Glenn Beck was going back and forth with her and Glenn Beck got incensed that she was questioning his Christianity and He and he said this is the last time I'm going to explain this.

He was just struck me as being odd that he would be upset by explaining his faith. But he said I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin that he died on the cross and rose again, and he's the Savior of Mankind and There you have it.

I am a Christian and I don't have the exact wording in front of me but it was something very very similar to that at the very least and They can use all of those phrases and words, but they mean entirely different things, don't they?

Yes, yes they do and that's that's the with Glenn Beck if I told and if he said he endowed through the temple. So they start adding a lot and Mormons are very very defensive. Use that for example. Let's let's look at so tell me if you can accept these.

Yes. Yes, that's not a problem. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Yes, you're and Redeemer of the world. Yes. Yeah, no problem. Next question and gospel just Smith. Well, obviously not.

Oh Well, we have a problem there. Do you believe that the by the way, do they have a current church president? I know that Thomas Monson just passed away recently. He just died and there's another one in line.

Okay, but I don't believe that he is a prophet of God and nor do I even believe I will meet him in heaven. Right, I mean unless of course the current one the new one repents of his False beliefs and embraces the true Christ and gospel of the Holy Scriptures, right?

So that's where you get into and so in other words when they're Joe's life and nobody comes into the father. Except through me. That's what the Bible says, but in Mormonism you would have to accept Jesus.

But there's a tag on there. You also have to accept Joseph Smith. Okay, now it states, you know in in the Bible, you know. Can be no person you and God because it says that you know. There is one God and might and that is the man Christ Jesus.

Well in Mormonism, you have to place Joseph Smith in there. I have it and accept his if I recall I don't have to know. You don't can do that. Not somebody. No, obviously obviously if someone professing to be a Christian though was rejecting.

The God-breathed.

Words of Scripture that came from. I'm not saying I'm just talking about somebody being safe, right? Right? Yes. Uh-huh. They haven't read. Yes, you're on. They will get an understanding of that in Mormonism.

You have to accept that immediately that Joseph Smith is a prophet in the Bible and accept a point out and say do then We'll put kind of man, right. And you don't need to be a Bible scholar or even be very.

Knowledgeable in regard to the scriptures before you are born again, right, right, right.

That's that's what I was trying to get to. In other words if I have a testimony of an a better understanding.

Oh, yeah, definitely. Okay. In fact, we're gonna pick up where you left off there and also get a little bit of Your wife Lynn's background and I'd also like to hear about how you both met. But we are going to go to our first station break right now If anybody wants to join us on the air.

We already have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered. And in fact, one of them is a former Mormon. And if anybody else wants to get in line and join us with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Ch r is a r n z e n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence. If you live outside the USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away God willing.

We'll be right back with Michael D Wilder and dr. Lynn K Wilder and more of our discussion on Leaving Mormonism why for scholars change their minds don't go away. We will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Or at least a part of it to whet your appetite from the album. The album is the way truth in life, I believe. Correct or is it tongues of fire. Tongues of fire is the album Michael But but I just wanted to get that clear the the album is tongues of fire.

Right, and that was that was a portion of sons of suffering. Right son of suffering, I'm sorry and the The out the the website for Adams Road Ministry is Adam. Adams Road Ministry calm. That's Adams Road Ministry calm.

Obviously, there's no apostrophe in that Adams Road Ministry calm. And I understand that you can get all of the music from Adams Road either digitally or by Or on CD absolutely free of charge. That's correct.

Yeah, that is absolutely amazing and I don't know of any other Christian ministry that does that. I may be mistaken on that, but I don't know of any other. I know some that have special Cases where they will allow those who truly cannot afford Their CDs they'll let them have it for free or for a radically reduced price.

But this is Adams Road routinely and always allows all of their music to be received for free.

Don't know how to do that. Yeah, and that's Adams Road Ministry. Calm, right, right, right, but if we could pick up where we left off, I'm sorry.

I interrupted you there Michael.

No website. You can one of the mention that I between God and man and that is the man and what that what that means that Mormonism just the current Mormon prophets. Again that you accept then you start.

It's not that you start. Okay, and.

Lynn Wilder’s Background, Marriage, and Departure from Mormonism

Lynn, dr. Lynn Kay Waller Michael's wife. I would like to know Not only how you and Michael met but I'd also like to know how you became a Mormon yourself or a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Yeah, I'd like to hear something about your own departure as well.

Well, Mike and I met at Ball State University in a PE class, which was a Folk dance class that we took for a PE credit. Did you know David Letterman when you were there? About the same time that we were there.

Did not know. He was a hippie dippy weatherman there on a local Station out of Indianapolis after he graduated from college. So. Yes, Indiana knew him. Well before he became big.

So.

One day after class I went out to stick my head under the water fountain and Mike came out and Said to me gee you sweat a lot and that was kind of.

Romantic.

And it's been a 43 year journey so far. It's been wonderful. God's been wonderful. But Mike kind of described we went into Mormonism. We had both been raised Christian, but normally Christian did not know our Bible.

But wanted Jesus right and wanted a Christian kind of social club I suppose joined Mormonism and because we didn't know the Bible when they started adding to what was in the Bible. We just didn't recognize it because we were not familiar with with what God himself had taught in the Bible which takes me to a Wonderful point and that is what took us in to Mormonism was the people.

What brought us out was the Bible? Nothing, but the Word of God.

Amen.

We had a third son Micah who started the Adam's Throat ministry. Who served his Mormon mission in Florida? Who is challenged by a Baptist pastor to read the Bible as a child and Micah read the New Testament about a dozen times while it was on his Mormon mission and while he was a leader in his mission.

And one day three weeks before the end of his mission. He went to his knees. Gave the rest of his life to the Jesus of the Bible he'd realized it was couldn't be the same Jesus because we had a different message of salvation between Mormonism and the Bible.

And. After that everything changed and this will bring you back to what Mike was saying About how if you want to join the Mormon Church, and you want to be baptized you have to accept Joseph Smith. So when Micah had this amazing salvation experience.

God as he does.

Arranged for Micah to be able to stand in front of about 60 missionary peers and Bear testimony of what he'd learned over the last two years before he was going home from his mission. He literally bore a sweet testimony of the Lord on the cross paying for his sins.

But he didn't mention that Joseph was a prophet. He didn't mention the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on the face of the earth. He didn't mention that the Mormon living prophet was the one man on the face that God but the earth who speaks for God and Those omissions believe it or not got him called in and questioned probably a four-hour Inquisition and he was very forthcoming about what he'd read in the Bible what he'd learned.

And he did admit he didn't think he needed the Mormon Organization or living prophet between himself and Jesus that he knew his salvation was secure.

That.

Declaration got him sent home from his mission in disgrace and the Mormon Church tried to Excommunicate him. They told us as his parents He had the spirit of the devil in him and that he was an antichrist for believing what he believed.

Wow Wow, I know Mormons have a hard time often Understanding that this can really be true. But Mormonism and biblical Christianity are not just a little different. They're Contrary they are opposite doctrines and the Mormon Church must know this or this son would not be in so much trouble.

What they teach their members is that Christians biblical Christians are lessers. They have a little of the truth right and Mormons have the fullness of the truth. So you just need to take a Christian like us a nominal Christian and add to.

But that is not the truth. The truth is between Mormonism and biblical faith. You have different gods because they have different natures and you have different ways to salvation.

There is no reconciling the two. Yeah, I mean from what I know about Mormonism other than some basic Standards of morality that they share with Christians. And in fact, even on some of those issues they seem to waver especially in the 21st century There are some very strange things going on in their softness towards homosexuality that never From what I know existed in the LDS Church before but they are just as far away from Christianity from genuine biblical Christianity as the the pagan idolatry of of the Norse gods and the Greek and Roman gods, it seems to be a polar opposite religion to Christianity, even though many people.

Because of the fact that they know that their Mormon neighbors are extremely nice people that they are very charitable people. They're very hospitable people. They're very benevolent and gregarious and helpful people and sacrificial people they may think that there can't be that much difference, but they're really one of the religions that claims to be Christian that is Most far away from that from our faith that you could even imagine isn't aren't they?

That's true, you're going to talk to Corey Miller tomorrow. He'll tell you that when he teaches comparative religions he puts Mormonism closer to Hinduism than to any of the other faiths and Certainly, I've done another number of shows comparing Mormonism.

With Islam believe it or not. Well, I know that Joseph Smith claimed to be the second Muhammad didn't he did.

He did he knew he knew very well that he had quite a few similarities with Muhammad. Yes, you have in both faiths. And. Another angel that brings another gospel. These are biblical terms, right? Gabriel to Muhammad in the cave.

Moroni to Joseph Smith and his bed one night. Starts out with kind of an Abrahamic faith, but then they're taught that Abrahamic faith is Corrupt and so they have to go off in a different direction with additional scripture certainly the Book of Mormon and the Quran.

They these Additional scriptures take them to work space faith. Mormonism is very strongly. Work space faith. You cannot live with God the Father in the next life. If you don't earn a temple recommend go to the temple.

Do certain ordinances and continue to do them till the end of your life. And then maybe if you've done enough God's grace will kick in and save you. That's very similar to Islam. Where you never have the assurance of salvation you get to the end of your life.

Of course, and if your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds then perhaps you'll be saved. The a number of other similarities. One is. One of the seven pillars of Islam is that everyone must make a pilgrimage to Mecca during your lifetime.

Do you know that if you're not able to do that in your lifetime after you're dead a family member can do that in? Proxy for you. That's exactly the kind of stuff that goes on in the Mormon Temple.

Doing.

Deeds in proxy and ordinances in proxy for people who are dead that they might be saved also. In Islam if you're Muslim and you make this pilgrimage to Mecca You will wear white clothes go into a building called the Hajj and make Covenants that aren't so different from the covenants made in the Mormon Temple and then the last similarity that I will bring forward is that both in Islam and Mormonism the Righteous will be having more than one wife.

Oh, I know that Mormons.

Also, I mean we could go on and on and on and how they'd have different definitions when you use the word saved and so forth. They really believe that if they are faithful to the Mormon teachings that they will become gods of their own planet.

And How does that differ. I know that they Refuse to accept the label polygamy. I'm not polygamy. Um, they they they refuse to Accept the label polytheist or polytheism. Because they say that we have one God on this earth that we worship or that they worship.

How did how do they get around? Really being accurately labeled as.

Polytheists they are clearly.

Polytheist.

Would not admit that to a Christian at the door that they're trying to convert. Certainly they use the Bible to help gain converts 83. According to the Pew Institute in 2011 83 of the people that join Mormonism come right out of biblical Christianity.

So that's who they target. People who have heard of Jesus kind of like Jesus, but don't know much about Jesus.

Yeah, but they would say that they're not polytheists because they only worship one God. Am I right. Well.

Technically, no, they worship God the Father and Yeah, I guess they could say that but but they will tell you that Jesus is also a God and he's separate from God the Father. They both have bodies of flesh and bones so they can't be conjoined right unless they're conjoined twins.

They're separate beings. They are separate God.

And of course they believe that an infinite number of gods exists. Even if they are not worshiping them because those are gods for other planets in fact. They would make Hindus blush because at least Hindus I think have a finite number of false gods.

They have an infinite number. Don't they the Mormons?

Yes, Mormons don't know how many gods there are and yes every righteous man Can work his way to Godhead. So the definition of eternal life in Mormonism this is really the meat of the difference between biblical faith and Mormonism.

The definition of eternal life in Mormonism is families living together in the next life With God the Father. And in order to do that You have to go to the Mormon temple go through all the ordinances a man has to be sealed to at least one righteous Mormon woman and Then if you do all the right things till the end of your life Then you possibly can live with your family forever and with God.

Which is kind of funny because if each man's going to have his own planet because he's going to be God of his own planet. But there's only one Heavenly Father with one body. Certainly. Each man and each planet can't live without one Heavenly Father.

God. Very different nature of God in Mormonism and biblical faith. The God the Father in the Bible is a spirit that makes him omniscient omnipresent and Omnipotent as a Mormon. Neither of the Mormon gods can say they are any of those three but Mormons would say we worship God the Father and Jesus.

We believe in God the Father and Jesus the Savior and the Holy Spirit. But there are three separate gods. But there's only one God for this world. They're all three God World makes no sense, right? But do like to sound Christian if they can.

Yes, and one of the reasons why they certainly believe in an infinite number of gods is because they believe that they are Continually giving birth to future gods. In fact Mike could you pick up could you pick up where we left off because we have to enter into our midway break right.

Now, okay, and we could pick up right where you were left leaving off there. And this is a look. This is our longer break than normal. It's 12 minutes because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida.

Requires a 12-minute break between our two hours. So I hope that you're all patient and if you want to get in line and ask a question of your own. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back on bullying after these messages with Michael and Lynn Wilder. One sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

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