January 11, 2018 Show with Michael D. Wilder & Dr. Lynn Wieting Wilder on “Leaving Mormonism: Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds” (Part 1)

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 11th day of January 2017.

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I'm delighted to have a returning guest and a first -time guest at the same time today.

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They are husband and wife. For the very first time we have the privilege and honor to have

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Michael D. Wilder on the program and his wife, who is a returning guest,

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Dr. Lynn K. Wilder, are both founders of Ex -Mormon

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Christians United for Jesus, and Michael Wilder and Dr. Lynn Wilder are former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints, now Biblical Christians, as the name of their ministry would indicate.

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Lynn was once a tenured professor at Mormon church -owned and operated

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Brigham Young University with a doctorate in emotional behavioral disorders.

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Lynn is a researcher, scholar, journal editor, and author of more than 60 refereed publications and five books in both her professional field and that of faith.

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Mike and Lynn left the LDS Church and founded the ministry Ex -Mormon Christians United for Jesus, which is found at UnveilingMormonism .com.

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That's www .UnveilingMormonism .com. Michael D. Wilder is a husband, father, grandfather, businessman, speaker, author, and co -founder of the ministry, and he once served as a high priest in the

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LDS Church. In that role he held numerous leadership callings, including high counselor, bishopric member, and Mormon temple worker, etc.

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The Wilders left Mormonism for a relationship with Jesus Christ when they read the Bible and saw conflicts with Mormon doctrine and teaching.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you, Michael D. Wilder, for the very first time and to welcome you back,

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Dr. Lynn K. Wilder. Well it's great to be on the line with you guys, and now you're way far north, right?

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I am in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, the home of Dickinson College, which sadly is now a very liberal school, although it began as a

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Christian school some couple of hundred years ago, I believe. Yeah, well you know, now you've had some cold weather up there, right?

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Yes, it's finally warming up though. Yeah, well you know, it's been cold here in Florida. In fact, you know, last week it was so cold we had to turn our air conditioning off.

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I mean, it was just amazing. I thought you were gonna give me a Johnny Carson joke there.

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It was so cold in Florida yesterday. I'm wondering, did

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I misread or misunderstand something in your bio, or is that a typo,

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Lynn, where I said, let's see, I'm looking for it here. Oh, you're the author of more than 60 refereed publications?

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I am really impressed that you pronounced that word correctly. You must be a scholar yourself.

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Yes, actually those are refereed journal articles, most of them. Okay, now

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I know what refereed would mean in a sporting event, but what would it mean in this regard? In academia, that means other scholars in your area have approved the work or allowed it to be published.

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See, well I just revealed that I'm not a scholar. Well, you are in the

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Bible, Chris, that's for sure. Well, you know what I'm gonna do before we even get into your stories and also the book that Lynn contributed to,

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Leaving Mormonism, Why Four Scholars Changed Their Mind. Before we even get into that,

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I want to play a clip from a band that your son is involved in called

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Adams Road. If you could first tell our listeners something about Adams Road. Well, Adams Road started with Mormon missionaries who had come to faith in the biblical

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Jesus, and so in Adams Road ministry you have our second son

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Matt, our third son Micah, our son -in -law, Joseph Warren, all three former

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Mormon missionaries, and they have a young woman with them now who is out of polygamy, out of one of the polygamous bodies, out of Mexico, which has opened up a whole new area for our ministry.

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Wow, that is something. Yeah, I've interviewed at least two individuals, one a woman and one a man who are both published authors who were rescued out of the fundamentalist

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints who were a part of polygamist families, and one was a polygamist wife, one of multiple wives of a

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Mormon, and it was truly fascinating, truly fascinating interviews.

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In fact, if anybody later on wants to go to ironsharpensironradio .com and type in the search engine polygamy, you may be able to find those interviews, unless of course they are from my old show.

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In fact, now that I'm remembering it, they are from my old show, so those interviews are not yet archived on the new website, but I can get them for you if you email me a request.

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Hopefully we'll eventually get all the old Iron Sharpens Iron Radio shows from when we were broadcasting out of New York on the new website, so I apologize for that.

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But, so this is a wonderful band. I became aware of them years ago when

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I heard them on television. They were guests on some Christian program, and I can't even remember what program it was, and I was so disappointed that when

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Adams Road was passing through Carlisle, they could not stop by the studio because we were hoping that they could all be right here in the studio with me to be interviewed, but hopefully that will happen at some point in the in the future.

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If we can't get them back in the studio, we will get them on the phone, just as you two are, and there was some kind of unexpected gig that they had that brought them farther away from Carlisle than they expected, and then they got stuck somewhere where they had bad cell phone reception.

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So, but I'm gonna play a clip from the Adams Road, one of their albums, and this is called

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Way, Truth and Life, Tongues of Fire. I'm not sure which is the album and which is the song, but here it is.

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I said before, only through me, you'll be saved.

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You may be wondering, how can we know the way? This is eternal life, but you know

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God and me, cause I am the way,

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I am the truth, I am the life. The beginning became grace and truth, to fulfill the prophets and the law, thanks to you.

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And you may be wondering, what is the truth? And the word made flesh to dwell with you.

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And grace has brought us safe, on the cross tonight we'll step away together, to make it just right.

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Whoever believes in me will have eternal life, but has lost.

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From death the resurrection has me, has lost.

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I am the way,

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I am the truth, I am the life.

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Amen, and that was the song Tongues of Fire from the album

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Way, Truth and Life. And what a beautiful, talented group that is.

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Thank you very much for providing me with the music today, Dr. Wilder.

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And now we get into the part of the program where we're going to discuss your story.

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And I'd like to also let our listeners know that they can join us on the air with a question of their own.

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The email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if you are asking about a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you are a Mormon, and you have questions you want to ask, or perhaps you're disagreeing with something that the

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Wilders are saying, and you don't feel comfortable to draw attention to your identity. Well, we can understand that, and we will grant your request.

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Any other question that you have that involves a personal and private matter, we will respect your wishes.

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But other than that, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. Well, Michael, since we have not yet had you on the program,

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I'd like to hear about how you came to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints to begin with, and what your life was like within the church. Well, thank you,

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Chris. You know, the first thing we'd like to state is that we as ex -Mormons, we do not hate or despise the

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Mormon people. We have a lot of respect for them. We have a lot of love for them. We were

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Mormons for 30 years. For more than, you know, close to half my life, I was involved in working with Mormons, dealing with them in leadership positions, having discussions with them, and just loving them.

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And they're wonderful people. They really are. And, you know, we need to love them, but we need to help them understand what is biblical

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Christianity, because biblical Christianity and Mormon teachings are different.

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And I say that being respectful, but when you get down to the core parts of Christianity and Mormonism, we do have a difference there.

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And a lot of people, you know, I mean, the song that you were playing, I just really enjoyed it. That was actually,

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I think the album is called Tongues of Fire, and the song is called The Way to Truth and Life, which is after John 14, 6, if I do recall.

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But the fact is, you know, a lot of people say, well, how did you join

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Mormonism? And the easiest thing I always tell people is

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I knew enough about the Bible to be dangerous. And where in Mormonism, when you have those dear

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Mormon missionaries come and start teaching you, they'll use a lot of the terminology that you know of in Christianity.

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They'll use a lot of terminology from the Bible, and it sounds so good and so logical the way they teach it.

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If you have a limited understanding of the Bible, therefore you kind of get drawn into it.

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The fact that they're so nice, they're so kind, and the people. You know, when we were investigating

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Mormonism, when we went to church, I mean, people just loved on us. They just drew us in.

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They fed us. They basically adopted us as part of the family even before we joined into Mormonism.

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I just happened to be starting teaching at a university, Ball State University, where one of the assistant department heads there was

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LDS. And they just took us under their wing. I mean, just like he adopted me.

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I was in my mid -20s, finishing up graduate school, trying to decide whether to go on to get a doctorate, and was teaching accounting.

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And they just loved upon us and just drew us in. But that's where people really have to have an understanding of the

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Bible, to what it really teaches and what the doctrine is, so that when you have these dear

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Mormon missionaries come in, and they start teaching you, and you let them in. Please invite them in.

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If you know anything about the Bible, let them in. If you don't know very much about the Bible, I don't think you should let them in because you'll get confused.

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But if you're a strong but kind Christian, then let them in.

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Come in, let them teach you, and then you just will gently say, well, that's an interesting concept that you're talking about.

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But how do you answer this in the Bible? Because they'll talk about prophets.

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They'll talk about Jesus. They talk about the Old Testament. They'll talk about the law.

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And they'll talk about Jesus dying for our sins and all these things, everything that sounds so logical in Christianity.

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But when you start digging a little bit deeper, you'll see that their definition has a totally different meaning in Mormonism than it does in Christianity.

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Yeah, I've heard that Mormons very often have the same vocabulary but a different dictionary.

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That is so, so true, and that's where it's very easily you get people confused.

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If you're talking with a Mormon and you'll say, well, am I saved by grace?

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They'll say to you, yes, you are saved by grace. But what they don't tell you, they don't tell you where you are saved to.

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They don't tell you that you're saved to the middle or lower kingdom, but you're not saved to the higher kingdom in the presence of God the

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Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, as the Mormons would say. So that's where you get into the difference in terminology, and that's where you have to be so careful.

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Yes, I have a very good friend who is a former Jehovah's Witness, who became a

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Christian by the grace of God. And she is a very talented Christian singer.

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In fact, I would love for Adams Road to meet her because she has her own CDs as well, and she is a really phenomenally gifted woman.

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She speaks at women's retreats and conferences and so forth, telling her testimony.

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And she was on some fairly well -known Christian television programs giving her testimony.

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But she showed me a screenshot about a year ago of an internet discussion she was having with Glenn Beck.

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And Glenn Beck was going back and forth with her, and Glenn Beck got incensed that she was questioning his

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Christianity. And he said, this is the last time

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I'm going to explain this, which struck me as being odd that he would be upset by explaining his faith.

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But he said, I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, that he died on the cross and rose again, and he's the savior of mankind.

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And there you have it. I am a Christian. And I don't have the exact wording in front of me, but it was something very, very similar to that at the very least.

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And they can use all of those phrases and words, but they mean entirely different things, don't they?

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Yes, they do. And that's the sad part about it is that you think when you're talking with a

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Mormon, you're talking on the same level, the same dialogue. But what they're thinking is something different than what you're thinking, and that's where you can go off on that.

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I would love to be able to sit down on the radio with Glenn Beck and say, okay, let's define what

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Mormonism is. And, yeah, what you said is true, but then you have to start digging down.

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Who is Jesus Christ? How do you live in the presence of God the Father? Because if I told

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Glenn Beck, I said, just by me believing only in Jesus Christ, and accepting him as my personal savior, when

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I die, I will live in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Christ and the

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Holy Ghost without having to do any additional work or ordinances.

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And if he said yes, then he would be lying, because the only way you can do that is you have to join the

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Mormon Church and you have to be endowed through the temple. So they start adding a lot more to it than just believing, because being saved means being saved to, like, the middle kingdom, not the highest or celestial kingdom where God the

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Father lives. And Mormons are very, very defensive when you start questioning that.

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I mean, just for example, let's look at some baptismal questions.

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Let's say that we are being baptized in a Mormon church. And I was a ward mission leader, a stake missionary.

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I worked, you know, with getting people baptized and all these things. So let me just read a couple questions, and you tell me if you can accept these, you know, as a

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Christian. Do you believe that God is our eternal

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Father? Yes, that's not a problem. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the

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Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world? Yes. Yes, no problem.

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Next question. Do you believe the Church and Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored through the

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Prophet Joseph Smith? Well, obviously not. Oh, well, we have a problem there.

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Do you believe that the current church president is a prophet of God?

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By the way, do they have a current church president? I know that Thomas Monson just passed away recently.

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He just died, and there's another one in line. But I don't believe that he is a prophet of God, nor do

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I even believe I will meet him in heaven. Right. Unless, of course, the current one, the new one, repents of his false beliefs and embraces the true

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Christ and Gospel of the Holy Scriptures. Right. So that's where you get into it. And so, in other words, when you join the

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Mormon Church, you don't just have to accept Jesus as your

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Savior and Redeemer. You also have to sprinkle in there Joseph Smith and the current

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Mormon prophet. Okay? And so what you've done, you're saying, just like what we read,

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John 14, 6, you know, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and nobody comes into the

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Father except through me. That's what the Bible says. But in Mormonism, you would have to accept

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Jesus, but there's a tag on there. You also have to accept Joseph Smith.

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Okay? Now, it states, you know, in the Bible, you know, that there can be no person, no mediator between you and God because it says that, you know, there is one

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God and one Savior for mankind and one mediator for mankind, and that is the man

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Christ Jesus. Well, in Mormonism, you have to place Joseph Smith in there.

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I have to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and accept his teachings along with Jesus Christ.

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Now we have a problem. We'll put in man. If I recall, I don't have to accept

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Moses as a prophet to be saved. The last time I checked the Bible, I didn't.

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Okay? No, you don't. Do I have to accept Paul? No. I have to accept

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Christ. Then, if I want to accept these guys, I can do that, but that's the key thing is that it's

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Christ first, okay, not somebody equal with Christ to get me to salvation.

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Now, obviously, if someone professing to be a Christian, though, was rejecting the

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God -breathed words of Scripture that came from... Well, I'm not saying that.

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I'm just talking about somebody being saved. Right, right, yes. They haven't read. Yes. Later on, they will get an understanding of that.

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In Mormonism, you have to accept that immediately, that Joseph Smith is a prophet before you can believe.

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Yes, you have to believe, you know, in the Bible and accept the Bible, okay, but I don't have to point out and say,

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I have to accept this person, this person, because if we do, then we're putting a man between us and Christ.

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We accept the teachings of Christ, okay, through the Bible, but we don't have to add a man to it. That probably didn't come across right, but the fact is that, you know, my salvation is through Christ, not through any kind of man.

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Right, and you don't need to be a Bible scholar or even be very knowledgeable in regard to the

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Scriptures before you are born again. Right, right, right. That's what I was trying to get to. In other words,

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I may not have read all the epistles of Paul, okay, which

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I love the writings of Paul, or if I've read anything, you know, John or John 1, 2, and 3 and so forth, but if I have a testimony of who

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Christ is through what I've been taught, then I am saved, and then those are things that I can gain knowledge of and a better understanding of Christ, okay, but I am saved at that point.

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Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, definitely. Okay. In fact, we're going to pick up where you left off there and also get a little bit of your wife

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Lynn's background, and I'd also like to hear about how you both met, but we are going to go to our first station break right now.

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If anybody wants to join us on the air, we already have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered, and, in fact, one of them is a former

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Mormon, and if anybody else wants to get in line and join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

27:48

USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

27:54

God willing, we'll be right back with Michael D. Wilder and Dr. Lynn K. Wilder, and more of our discussion on Leaving Mormonism, Why Four Scholars Change Their Minds.

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Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Many were amazed when they saw him

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Seemed hardly human Did Jesus When his form was so mild

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One would scarcely know That he was a man

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Oh, bright morning star Equipped with grief

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Was Jesus Was not a still

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And forsaken a man

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Though he was in the form of God He became nothing

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Did Jesus No majesty, no beauty

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For us to see Made himself empty

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Oh, bright morning star Equipped with grief

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Was Jesus Was not a still

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And forsaken by man

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A man of sorrows Was Jesus He was the son

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Son of suffering He died to bring us life

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That's Son of Suffering, or at least a part of it To whet your appetite from the album

36:27

The album is The Way, Truth and Life, I believe, correct? Or is it Tongues of Fire? Tongues of Fire is the album.

36:36

Michael? Yes, yeah, okay. I want to give you the verse of the one I messed up so bad the last time.

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But I just wanted to get that clear. The album is Tongues of Fire. Yeah, Tongues of Fire. And that was a portion of Sons of Suffering.

36:50

Right. Son of Suffering, I'm sorry. And the website for Adams Road Ministry is

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AdamsRoadMinistry .com. That's AdamsRoadMinistry .com. Obviously, there's no apostrophe in that.

37:06

AdamsRoadMinistry .com. And I understand that you can get all of the music from Adams Road, either digitally or on CD, absolutely free of charge.

37:17

That's correct. That is absolutely amazing. And I don't know of any other Christian ministry that does that.

37:25

I may be mistaken on that, but I don't know of any other. I know some that have special cases where they will allow those who truly cannot afford their

37:36

CDs. They'll let them have it for free or for a radically reduced price. But Adams Road routinely and always allows all of their music to be received for free.

37:45

Right, right. And if you don't know how to do that, you can call them or email them, and they'll send you a physical

37:53

CD free of charge also. Yeah, and that's AdamsRoadMinistry .com. Right, right, right.

37:59

But if we could pick up where we left off. I'm sorry I interrupted you there, Michael. No problem. One of the other things that's kind of neat on their website, you can go look up the lyrics on each one of their songs, and you can see the cross -reference to the

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Bible verses that supports that lyrics. So when people really listen to their music, even though they may not be

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Christians, they're learning the Bible and what it teaches all the way through. So there's just a ton of Bible verses tied to their lyrics.

38:30

So that helps you go through that. But the verse I wanted to mention that I mentioned earlier and I couldn't remember off the top of my head is in 1

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Timothy 5, where it says,

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For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, and that is the man

38:49

Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom to all. And what that means, that verse counters

38:57

Mormonism in that in Mormonism, just to join the Mormon church, you have to accept the current

39:03

Mormon prophet and Joseph Smith as a prophet in their teaching.

39:09

And also, when you go to the temple, you have to restate all those things again, that you accept the teachings of Joseph Smith and of the current

39:18

Mormon prophet. So then you start getting into different teachings than what is biblical teaching.

39:26

So I'm a very strong believer in the Bible, and I didn't mean that to come across that way, but when a person is just being saved, they may not have read the

39:36

Old Testament, but they are saved, and they know who Christ is, and then you go on a learning process at that point.

39:45

It's not that you start learning and doing the works first, and then you're saved. You're saved first.

39:51

So I just wanted to get that. Okay. And Lynn, Dr. Lynn K.

39:57

Wilder, Michael's wife, I would like to know not only how you and Michael met, but I'd also like to know how you became a

40:05

Mormon yourself or a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, and I'd like to hear something about your own departure as well.

40:14

Well, Mike and I met at Ball State University in a P .E. class, which was a folk dance class that we took for a

40:25

P .E. credit. Did you know David Letterman when you were there? I think Letterman was there about the same time that we were there.

40:33

Did not know him first. Okay. I was just curious. He was a hippy -dippy weatherman there on a local station out of Indianapolis after he graduated from college.

40:46

So, yes, Indiana knew him well before he became big. So one day after class

40:54

I went out to stick my head under the water fountain, and Mike came out and said to me,

41:01

Oh, gee, you sweat a lot, and that was kind of exciting. How romantic! And it's been a 43 -year journey so far.

41:13

It's been wonderful. God's been wonderful. But Mike kind of described, we went into Mormonism, we had both been raised

41:21

Christian, but nominally Christian, did not know our Bible, but wanted

41:26

Jesus, right, and wanted a Christian kind of social club,

41:32

I suppose, joined Mormonism. And because we didn't know the Bible, when they started adding to what was in the

41:39

Bible we just didn't recognize it because we were not familiar with what God himself had taught in the

41:46

Bible. Which takes me to a wonderful point, and that is what took us into Mormonism was the people.

41:56

What brought us out was the Bible. Nothing but the

42:02

Word of God. Amen. We had a third son,

42:08

Micah, who started the Adam's Throat Ministry, who served his

42:13

Mormon mission in Florida, who was challenged by a

42:18

Baptist pastor to read the Bible as a child. And Micah read the

42:23

New Testament about a dozen times while he was on his Mormon mission and while he was a leader in his mission.

42:30

And one day, three weeks before the end of his mission, he went to his knees, gave the rest of his life to the

42:38

Jesus of the Bible. He realized it couldn't be the same Jesus because we had a different message of salvation between Mormonism and the

42:48

Bible. And after that, everything changed. And this will bring you back to what

42:54

Micah was saying about how if you want to join the Mormon Church and you want to be baptized, you have to accept

43:02

Joseph Smith. So when Micah had this amazing salvation experience, God, as he does, arranged for Micah to be able to stand in front of about 60 missionary peers and bear testimony of what he'd learned over the last two years before he was going home from his mission.

43:23

He literally bore a sweet testimony of the Lord on the cross, paying for his sins.

43:31

But he didn't mention that Joseph was a prophet. He didn't mention the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on the face of the earth.

43:38

He didn't mention that the Mormon living prophet was the one man on the face of the earth.

43:45

who speaks for God. And those omissions, believe it or not, got him called in and questioned.

43:57

Probably a four -hour inquisition, and he was very forthcoming about what he'd read in the

44:04

Bible, what he'd learned, and he did admit he didn't think he needed the Mormon organization or living prophet between himself and Jesus, that he knew his salvation was secure.

44:17

That declaration got him sent home from his mission in disgrace, and the

44:23

Mormon church tried to excommunicate him. They told us that his parents, he had the spirit of the devil in him, and that he was an antichrist for believing what he believed.

44:35

Wow. Wow. I know. Mormons have a hard time often understanding that this can really be true.

44:45

But Mormonism and biblical Christianity are not just a little different. They're contrary.

44:52

They are opposite doctrines, and the Mormon church must know this, or this son would not be in so much trouble.

45:00

What they teach their members is that Christians, biblical Christians, are lessers.

45:06

They have a little of the truth, right? And Mormons have the fullness of the truth.

45:11

So you just need to take a Christian like us, a nominal Christian, and add two. But that is not the truth.

45:19

The truth is, between Mormonism and biblical faith, you have different gods because they have different natures, and you have different ways to salvation.

45:30

There is no reconciling the two. Yeah, I mean, from what I know about Mormonism, other than some basic standards of morality that they share with Christians, and in fact, even on some of those issues, they seem to waver, especially in the 21st century.

45:52

There are some very strange things going on in their softness towards homosexuality that never, from what

46:00

I know, existed in the LDS church before. But they are just as far away from Christianity, from genuine biblical

46:09

Christianity, as the pagan idolatry of the

46:15

Norse gods and the Greek and Roman gods. It seems to be a polar opposite religion to Christianity, even though many people, because of the fact that they know that their

46:27

Mormon neighbors are extremely nice people, that they are very charitable people, they're very hospitable people, they're very benevolent and gregarious and helpful people and sacrificial people, they may think that there can't be that much difference.

46:42

But they're really one of the religions that claims to be

46:47

Christian that is most far away from our faith that you could even imagine, aren't they?

46:54

That's true. You're going to talk to Corey Miller tomorrow. He'll tell you that when he teaches comparative religions, he puts

47:00

Mormonism closer to Hinduism than to any of the other faiths.

47:06

And certainly, I've done a number of shows comparing Mormonism with Islam, believe it or not.

47:14

Well, I know that Joseph Smith claimed to be the second Muhammad, didn't he? He did. He did.

47:19

He knew very well that he had quite a few similarities with Muhammad, yes.

47:27

You have in both faiths another angel that brings another gospel.

47:33

These are biblical terms, right? Gabriel to Muhammad in the cave,

47:39

Moroni to Joseph Smith in his bed one night starts out with kind of an

47:45

Abrahamic faith, but then they're taught that Abrahamic faith is corrupt, and so they have to go off in a different direction with additional scripture, certainly the

47:56

Book of Mormon and the Koran. These additional scriptures take them to works -based faith.

48:05

Mormonism is very strongly works -based faith. You cannot live with God the

48:10

Father in the next life. If you don't earn a temple recommend, go to the temple, do certain ordinances, and continue to do them until the end of your life, and then maybe, if you've done enough,

48:23

God's grace will kick in and save you. That's very similar to Islam, where you never have the assurance of salvation.

48:32

You get to the end of your life, of course, and if your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, then perhaps you'll be saved.

48:40

There are a number of other similarities. One of the seven pillars of Islam is that everyone must make a pilgrimage to Mecca during their lifetime.

48:52

Do you know that if you're not able to do that in your lifetime after you're dead, a family member can do that in proxy for you?

49:00

That's exactly the kind of stuff that goes on in the Mormon temple, doing deeds and ordinances in proxy for people who are dead that they might be saved.

49:12

Also, in Islam, if you're

49:18

Muslim and you make this pilgrimage to Mecca, you will wear white clothes, go into a building called the

49:25

Hajj, and make covenants that aren't so different from the covenants made in the

49:30

Mormon temple. And then the last similarity that I will bring forward is that both in Islam and Mormonism, the righteous will be having more than one wife.

49:45

Now, I know that Mormons also, I mean, we could go on and on and on on how they'd have different definitions.

49:52

When you use the word saved and so forth, they really believe that if they are faithful to the

49:58

Mormon teachings, that they will become gods of their own planet.

50:04

How does that differ? I know that they refuse to accept the label polytheist or polytheism because they say that we have one

50:25

God on this earth that we worship, or that they worship. How do they get around really being accurately labeled as polytheists?

50:38

They are clearly polytheists. Would not admit that to a

50:44

Christian at the door that they're trying to convert. Certainly they use the

50:49

Bible to help gain converts. According to the Pew Institute in 2011, 83 % of the people that join

50:58

Mormonism come right out of Biblical Christianity. So that's who they target, people who have heard of Jesus, kind of like Jesus, but don't know much about Jesus.

51:10

Yeah, but they would say that they're not polytheists because they only worship one God, am

51:15

I right? Well, technically, no. They worship God the Father and, yeah,

51:23

I guess they could say that. But they will tell you that Jesus is also a

51:28

God, and he's separate from God the Father. They both have bodies of flesh and bones, so they can't be conjoined, right, unless they're conjoined twins.

51:37

They're separate beings. They are separate gods. And, of course, they believe that an infinite number of gods exists, even if they are not worshipping them, because those are gods for other planets.

51:49

In fact, they would make Hindus blush, because at least Hindus, I think, have a finite number of false gods.

51:56

They have an infinite number, don't they? The Mormons. Yes, Mormons don't know how many gods there are, and yes, every righteous man can work his way to Godhead.

52:09

So the definition of eternal life in Mormonism, this is really the meat of the difference between Biblical faith and Mormonism.

52:17

The definition of eternal life in Mormonism is families living together in the next life with God the

52:26

Father. And in order to do that, you have to go to the Mormon temple, go through all the ordinances, a man has to be sealed to at least one righteous

52:36

Mormon woman, and then if you do all the right things till the end of your life, then you possibly can live with your family forever and with God, which is kind of funny, because if each man's going to have his own planet, because he's going to be

52:53

God of his own planet, but there's only one Heavenly Father with one body, certainly each man and each planet can't live without one

53:03

Heavenly Father God. Very different nature of God in Mormonism and Biblical faith.

53:10

The God the Father in the Bible is a spirit that makes him omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.

53:21

Neither of the Mormon gods can say they are any of those three. But Mormons would say, we worship

53:27

God the Father and Jesus, we believe in God the Father and Jesus, the

53:33

Savior, and the Holy Spirit. But they're three separate gods, but there's only one

53:39

God for this world, they're all three gods in this world. Makes no sense, right?

53:45

But do like to sound Christian if they can. Yes, and one of the reasons why they certainly believe in an infinite number of gods is because they believe that they are continually giving birth to future gods.

54:00

You know, it does get quite complex, and a lot of times your average

54:07

Mormon will not get into this because they really don't know about this. In fact, Mike, could you pick up where we left off?

54:13

Because we have to enter into our midway break right now. Okay. And we could pick up right where you were leaving off there.

54:20

And this is our longer break than normal, it's 12 minutes, because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

54:25

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires a 12 -minute break between our two hours, so I hope that you're all patient.

54:31

And if you want to get in line and ask a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

54:37

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Don't go away. We'll be right back on Bullying After These Messages with Michael and Lynn Wilder.

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01:02:03

Men are like grass which withers and fades.

01:02:10

Our lives are like a dying flame.

01:02:19

And though we try to live a righteous life, our words like filthy facts have fallen away.

01:02:36

And so we bow our head as a wreath, for you oppose the crowd who give grace to the weak.

01:02:54

And Jesus, your guilt, bruised me, and you lit the dying flame.

01:03:01

We were dead in our sins, gave us life through faith.

01:03:11

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and Jesus you were sent.

01:03:27

That's Bruised Reed from Adams Road, from their Tongues of Fire album.

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And if you want more information about that musical group, go to AdamsRoadMinistry .com,

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01:03:46

And they happen to involve at least a member or two, who are the children of our guest today, and that is

01:03:59

Michael D. Wilder and Dr. Lynn K. Wilder, both former Mormons, both founders of Ex -Mormon

01:04:06

Christians United for Jesus. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:04:13

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. We are discussing

01:04:18

Mormonism in general, but we are also going to address a new book that Lynn K.

01:04:24

Wilder, Dr. Lynn K. Wilder, participated in with three other former Mormons, titled

01:04:30

Leaving Mormonism, Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds. And we'll be giving you more information about that in the developing interview to come.

01:04:41

But Michael Wilder, if you want to pick up where you left off there. Yeah, what's interesting, you know, we've been talking about the whole concept, and this is a key point in Mormonism, is that, you know, works will save you.

01:04:55

You have to do the works and be justified of those works and prove your works before you can be saved.

01:05:04

And the whole concept of Christianity is that you are saved and then works are a byproduct.

01:05:11

It's just the reverse fashion. You know, we all know Ephesians 2, 8, and 9, you know, is by faith that we are saved, you know, through grace.

01:05:22

But Ephesians 2, 10 states this, for we are now created in Christ Jesus to do good works after we're saved.

01:05:30

So once we have that relationship with Christ, good works is a byproduct. We want to do the correct things.

01:05:38

And in Mormonism, it's just the opposite. You know, in John 6, verse 28, you know, the apostles were asking

01:05:48

Christ, it says, what shall we do that we might do the works of the works of God?

01:05:55

Okay? And Jesus answered them and said, this is the work of God that you believe on him who he has sent.

01:06:04

That's a big difference. You believe, you receive that testimony of Christ, he becomes part of you, he lives in you, and now as, you know, it states, you know, you are now created in Christ to do good works, and that's the big difference.

01:06:21

And, you know, as James, you know, a lot of Mormons like to go to James chapter 2 and talk about, you know,

01:06:26

James states, I'll show you my faith by my works. Never did James ever state that it was his good works that saved him.

01:06:35

He was implying it's always a byproduct. If you're truly a Christian, then you will do the good works.

01:06:43

But we know that in Abraham, and we were talking about God, and a lot of Mormon, your

01:06:48

Mormon friends will say, well, we don't teach you you can become God. You know, that's a strange teaching by past prophets and all that stuff.

01:06:57

But in your current scriptures today, we can look this up, we know that Abraham found favor of God because of what?

01:07:08

His faith. His faith, right. He was found righteous before God in his faith.

01:07:15

Now, in Mormon scriptures, in Doctrine and Covenants 132, verse 37, this is what it states.

01:07:22

It says, Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

01:07:33

Wow. Now, that's a little bit different. A little. You know, that's a little bit different.

01:07:40

It was accounted to him for righteousness because they were given unto him as he abode in my law, as Isaac also and Jacob did.

01:07:50

Okay? Then it goes on and states, because it states here, and I'm not going to read the whole thing, because Jacob and Abraham and Isaac, you know, they all practiced polygamy.

01:08:03

That is the law of the priesthood of Mormonism. Okay? I can take you there and explain that, but we don't have time.

01:08:09

But because they practiced polygamy, this is what happened. It says here, and they have now entered into their exaltation according to the promise.

01:08:20

What is the promise? The promise of polygamy. And sit upon thrones and are not angels but are gods.

01:08:28

Okay? So in Mormonism, when people say, well, we can't become gods, and I say, well, maybe we can't, but we do know that in your scriptures,

01:08:38

Abraham became a god, Isaac became a god, and Jacob became a god.

01:08:43

Okay? So that's three, and we're also taught, as Melinda mentioned earlier, that God the

01:08:49

Father is a god, that Jesus is a god, and that the

01:08:54

Holy Ghost is a god. So that's six of them that we know of. Okay? So in the great

01:09:02

Mormon hymn, Praise to the Man, it states that Joseph Smith mingled with the gods to plan for his brethren.

01:09:11

So maybe even Joseph Smith might be a god now. We don't know. But that's just a song. But you get the idea.

01:09:18

The key thing that we need to understand, it is by grace that we are saved, and that grace is a – once we have that relationship, once we become a new creation, or as the

01:09:30

King James Version would say, a new creature in Christ, we are now marching on to a new way, and we want to do the right thing.

01:09:42

So I'm going to now turn the thing back over to Lynn. I just want to get that apart. Or maybe you have a question for Lynn about the book and so forth.

01:09:49

Well, yeah, I definitely want to get into the book. I know that the subtitle of Leaving Mormonism is

01:09:54

Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds. Lynn, why is it that Kriegel specifically wanted scholars involved in this book?

01:10:07

I am assuming it's because, just like many other religions, in fact, there might even be some evangelicals that would say, if they were to hear about a book,

01:10:18

Why We Left Evangelical Christianity or Biblical Christianity, and the person writing the book had no credentials, perhaps was not biblically literate, or what have you, evangelicals might jump to the conclusion that, well, this person could hardly give us a credible reason why someone should leave evangelical

01:10:40

Christianity or biblical Christianity. Is this something of the mindset as to why scholars were chosen for this book?

01:10:46

Yeah, absolutely. That's part of the reason. Certainly Mormons highly value education.

01:10:54

A greater percentage of their children go on to college. But let me kind of set the stage for this.

01:11:02

You probably know that Mormons are streaming out of the

01:11:07

Mormon church right now. They have been for several years in droves.

01:11:14

In 2011, someone asked Marlon K. Jensen about this great church exodus.

01:11:22

He's now a retired General Authority and historian of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

01:11:27

Saints. In November of 2011, someone asked him about people leaving the church, and this is what he said.

01:11:36

The 15 men, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in Mormonism, really do know and they really do care.

01:11:45

And they realize that maybe since the 1830s in Kirtland, we never have had a period of,

01:11:53

I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now, largely over these kind of historical issues.

01:12:02

So what's happened in the Mormon church is all this information about church history, about Joseph Smith, about his polygamous relationships, is now on the

01:12:16

Internet. And so people have been able to access that. In fact, the Mormon church itself a couple of years ago put out 13 essays on LDS .org

01:12:27

trying to explain some of these things like the racist scriptures, like the polygamy scriptures, like Joseph Smith's seer stone, how he supposedly translated the

01:12:41

Book of Mormon through an occult method. The church actually has that seer stone.

01:12:46

They did a PR picture and showed the world the seer stone. So the

01:12:51

Mormon church is trying to kind of take back their own kind of historical narrative, right, from the apostates, from the anti -Mormons, so that their own people that want to learn about Mormon history, etc.,

01:13:10

will come to the church for the source of the truth on that. The problem is the kind of half -truths that they've told in the essays are not satisfying people.

01:13:23

And even the historical essays that the Mormon churches put out is driving people out of the church because they never knew these things about Mormonism's past.

01:13:34

The problem has been, very much like evangelical

01:13:39

Christianity, the youth are leaving Mormonism but not keeping

01:13:46

Jesus, not in any way certainly running to biblical faith.

01:13:52

At least half the folks leaving Mormonism, as fair as we can tell, at least half are going to atheism and another large chunk going to agnosticism.

01:14:04

So those of us who have ministries back to these wonderful Mormon people who then feel like they've been duped, they decide that their

01:14:17

Mormon god is impotent, they just throw him out the door but decide all other gods are as well.

01:14:26

So these are the people that I have a heart for through this book.

01:14:31

And why through a scholarly means? Because those folks now tend to use their brain in faith.

01:14:39

And in Mormonism we only used our heart, pretty much. They use their brain in faith and they are now saying, no god makes sense, no religion makes sense, there is no one that's true.

01:14:55

And so we wanted to get people with credentials who've actually left

01:15:00

Mormonism but want to profess that biblical faith is reasonable, it's logical, it's evidential, and there's nothing else like it.

01:15:12

And so this is our attempt to do that. I think the other reason, really, that a scholarly approach is good is that the

01:15:22

Mormon apologists actually housed at BYU, most of them, Brigham Young, where I used to be, take a very scholarly approach to apologetics.

01:15:34

And so this gives the Christian church kind of a contrary alternative to that, somebody that they can talk with, right?

01:15:43

So in the 80s, you know, evangelicals decided they would kind of talk to Mormons.

01:15:49

And so there have been a number of books and a number of presentations and a number of people that do this conversation between an evangelical and a

01:15:59

Mormon. Richard Mao at Fuller Seminary has done some of this.

01:16:07

Robert Millett, a former BYU religion professor, has done some of this.

01:16:13

Greg Johnson, who's an evangelical in Utah, has done some of these kind of conversations.

01:16:20

The problem with these conversations is sometimes it's not real clear that there are differences, and people are very positive, and it looks like there really aren't many differences between evangelical faith.

01:16:35

So as scholars, we wanted to make it clear that there are some very serious differences, that truth can be found in the man of truth himself,

01:16:45

Jesus Christ, that he is powerful and able to keep his word together down through the ages, and he has done so in the

01:16:54

Bible. The Bible is internally consistent, it tells the same story.

01:17:00

In fact, you've got 40 authors, 66 books, with a consistent message.

01:17:06

That's certainly not true for Mormon scripture. By the way, I want to let our listeners know that you can purchase this book that we are discussing right now,

01:17:16

Leaving Mormonism, Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds, a

01:17:21

Kriegel publication. You can purchase that book by going to cvbbs .com,

01:17:27

that's C -V for Crumlin Valley, B -B -S for BibleBookService .com, who sponsor

01:17:32

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01:17:53

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800 -656 -0231. I just wanted to put that plug in there so people can get this book, and they can also get it at a discount from cvbbs .com.

01:18:52

And I think that now we should get to some of our listeners, because they are starting to pile up here.

01:18:58

And I want to make sure that we get to as many of our listener questions as we possibly can.

01:19:05

We have someone who has been a guest on this program before, and this is

01:19:13

Pastor Steve Cooley. Pastor Steve Cooley is a former

01:19:18

Mormon himself. And Pastor Steve is currently the associate pastor at a church in West Boylston, Massachusetts.

01:19:35

I am now searching for an email that he sent that was right in front of me just a few seconds ago.

01:19:42

But we'll get to those questions that you wrote, Steve, any second, as soon as I find it. And in the meantime, if anybody else wants to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:19:54

Oh, here it is. Steve Cooley, associate pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston, Massachusetts.

01:20:02

He actually has several excellent questions, and since he is a former Mormon, I'm going to try to read as many as I can, one at a time.

01:20:10

Of all the weaknesses of Mormonism, what do you think is the most compelling for the average member of the

01:20:17

LDS Church? In other words, what is most likely to get them to question the

01:20:22

Church? Our technique is simply to present the

01:20:30

Bible verses that are opposite what they believe. I believe that the

01:20:37

Holy Spirit is strong in the Word, and that there's power in the Word.

01:20:42

It says something like 3 ,800 times in the Bible that the Bible is reliable, that it's the

01:20:49

Word of God, that it's sharper than any two -edged sword. Micah, when he got saved, literally just challenged his parents to read the

01:21:00

Bible. So the very first verse I read, John 1, 1, in the beginning was the

01:21:06

Word. Oh, that's Jesus. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

01:21:11

And I went, he wasn't God from the beginning. He worked his way to Godhood.

01:21:17

Literally just reading the Bible, the very words of Jesus refute

01:21:24

Mormonism. And then when you have a logical brain and this conundrum is set up, you have to choose one direction or the other.

01:21:34

And the wonderful thing about the God of the Bible is he's bigger than any other God out there.

01:21:39

He's living. He's able. And he really did show up for me in some amazing ways.

01:21:47

When I knew I had to leave BYU because I'd given my life to the God of the Bible, a lady from Florida called me one day out of the blue and offered me a job at Florida Gulf Coast University.

01:22:03

I had not even applied there. I took that as just this amazing supernatural gift from God.

01:22:12

Two weeks later we packed up everything we had in Utah and moved to Florida, and we've been there ever since.

01:22:19

This God is real. He's able. He's personal. He's loving.

01:22:24

And when I cry out to him, he's there. And the Bible did that for me.

01:22:30

Weaknesses in Mormonism, for me the number one one was racism.

01:22:37

For my husband the number one one was polygamy. But also works -based faith, the idea that you have to work your way.

01:22:47

That horrible, horrible burden of trying to earn your own eternal life is horrific and has all kinds of social consequences.

01:23:00

Replacement theology is Mormonism. They believe they're the real Jews. They believe in necromancy.

01:23:07

I used to hope that dead relatives would show up to me in the temple. When I read in the

01:23:13

Bible that that's necromancy, the stuff of seances, and God says to stay away from it.

01:23:19

I didn't even know that. You have taught me something that I never heard before. And I've done quite a number of programs on Mormonism, and I don't think

01:23:27

I've ever heard that before. Well, because those of us, I used to work in the temple for 10 years.

01:23:33

One of the things that we always hoped for was that those Mormons that were, well, the people we knew that were dead, that we were going through the temple in proxy for doing all the ordinances for them, that they would literally show up.

01:23:50

They show up in spirit form, not like a physical body? Right, in spirit form, in the shape of a body, and thank us.

01:24:00

Sometimes in a dream, sometimes at the end of your bed, but certainly in the temple.

01:24:05

Were there many people who claimed this, that this actually happened? Yes. Now, in your opinion,

01:24:11

I mean, obviously you would be guessing at this point, but do you think that most of these that you are personally aware of were out -and -out lies, or were they, do you think, demonic manifestations that actually occurred?

01:24:25

Probably the second. Wow. Yeah, you know, people can certainly conjure things up in their brain if they want them to happen badly enough, but, you know, you could ask the same question about Joseph Smith's first vision, where he says the

01:24:42

Father and Jesus appeared to him. Well, did they appear to him, or did something appear to him?

01:24:49

Or was he dreaming? I assume it's probably a demonic manifestation.

01:24:56

At the beginning of Joseph Smith's first vision, where he tells about the Father and the

01:25:01

Son appearing to him, he says before that happened, he fell, couldn't breathe, there was darkness, and he thought he was doomed to destruction, he thought he was going to die, and then all of a sudden he saw light, and then

01:25:18

Jesus. And that does not sound to me like the way Jesus would come to you.

01:25:24

No. Right. And Pastor Steve Cooley of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston, Massachusetts, he has one more question that I will read because the others you already answered, actually.

01:25:39

His other question that you haven't addressed is, the LDS Church has spent a great deal in terms of counter -programming, trying to prove that there are archaeological proofs that buttress the claims of the

01:25:56

Book of Mormon. Are there any such proofs? No. No, it's all conjecture.

01:26:03

The Mormon Church now, though, has an archaeological dig. You know that there are 25 ,000 archaeological digs that prove that people point to the events of the

01:26:12

Bible. There is now one for the Book of Mormon because they say they have found

01:26:18

Father Lehi's house, and the Mormon Church, I'm sure, will turn that into a

01:26:24

Disney World place where you'll be able to take Disney World buses out from Jerusalem.

01:26:30

They have a lot of money, they do things well. But I talked to an archaeologist who said, there's no way what they're saying about that dig is true because there are caves at that dig, and there are little triangles that have been cut into the cave.

01:26:56

And the Mormon Church is saying that that's where the scrolls of Scripture were kept.

01:27:04

But biblical archaeologists know that often when

01:27:11

Israel's enemies came after her, Israel lived underground. And when they did that, they actually kept pigeons underground to eat, right?

01:27:24

So they cut these little triangular things in the caves, and so they would not have been for scrolls, they would have been for pigeons.

01:27:38

Very interesting, yes. The Mormon Church has a lot of money, and they do some pretty good

01:27:43

PR, certainly before the last election, lots of PR to try to help

01:27:50

Christians be calm about a Mormon running for president. Yeah, in fact,

01:27:56

I'll give a plug to a mutual friend of ours, Dr. Latine C. Scott. She actually wrote a book co -authored with Dr.

01:28:03

Stephen Collins on an actual archaeological discovery, discovering the city of Sodom.

01:28:10

And anybody who wants to get that book, you can go to Amazon and get that fascinating book by our mutual friend,

01:28:18

Dr. Latine C. Scott, who in fact was supposed to be on the program today, but providentially was hindered, and we hope to have her back on the program to discuss the same issue that we are addressing today.

01:28:29

And she is also a former Mormon who became a born -again believer in the true Christ and the true gospel of the

01:28:36

Holy Scriptures. So that book is Discovering the City of Sodom, the fascinating true account of the discovery of the

01:28:42

Old Testament's most infamous city. You can get that from Amazon. By the way,

01:28:49

Pastor Steve Cooley, you have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today,

01:28:56

Leaving Mormonism, Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds, compliments of our friends at Kriegel Publishing.

01:29:04

And you, as long as you give us your full mailing address there in West Boylston, Massachusetts, you will get that for free, compliments of Kriegel, and also compliments of CVBBS .com,

01:29:16

our sponsors here, who will ship that out to you at no cost to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:29:22

So make sure you get us your full mailing address. And let me give a plug to the

01:29:27

Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston, Massachusetts. You can go to their website at bbchurch .org,

01:29:35

bbchurch .org. Thank you very much, Pastor Steve. And we have another listener.

01:29:43

And what I will do, since we have to go to our final break, time has certainly flown by, I am going to read a question from another listener, and then we will have you answer it when you return from the break.

01:30:02

In fact, I'm going to also email this to you. I'll email this to you,

01:30:09

Lynn, and you and your husband can look at this together. The question is,

01:30:16

Thanks for having such a great topic with accomplished scholars. The quality of your show is truly a blessing to all.

01:30:23

My question has to do with historical research and apologetics with Mormons. What, if any, experience do the authors have with exposing

01:30:31

Mormons to the historical realities of the burnt -over districts of New York phenomenon caused by the abuses of Charles Finney and others during the suspect

01:30:44

Second Great Awakening? And we'll cut our friend

01:30:52

Joe, and this is from Joe in Slovenia, and we'll cut his question short there because of time restraints, and we'll send this to you right now so you can also look it over during the station break.

01:31:04

And if anybody else wants to get in line and have a question asked of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:31:12

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:31:21

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01:31:27

God willing, we will be right back with Michael and Dr. Lynn K. Wilder right after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:37:12

Four Winds or at least a little piece of Four Winds from the Tongues of Fire album by Adam's Road.

01:37:20

The group entirely made up of former Mormons and a couple of those involved in the group are the children, the adult children of our guests today,

01:37:32

Michael and Lynn K. Wilder, who are former Mormons themselves. And Lynn, how many of the members again are members of Adams Abroad who are your children?

01:37:43

Two are our sons. One is our son -in -law, and certainly Lila out of polygamy we have adopted.

01:37:52

Great. Well praise God. And if anybody wants to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:38:00

and do so now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time. And Joe in Slovenia, as I read before the break, says, my question has to do with historical research and apologetics of Mormons.

01:38:12

What, if any, experience do the authors have with exposing Mormons to the historical realities of the burnt - over districts of New York phenomenon caused by the abuses of Charles Finney and others during the suspect

01:38:25

Great Awakening? And many people are unaware that Charles Finney actually believed in a form of Christianity that was not

01:38:37

Christianity at all. There are a lot of people who uphold Finney as a hero, but he actually denied salvation by grace alone through faith alone, did not believe in the substitutionary death of Christ, and believed that men could be made right with God without any without any miraculous work of the

01:38:58

Holy Spirit. So, do you have any question, or should I say, do you have any response to our listener in Slovenia's question?

01:39:07

Well it'll be, you might want to ask this question to Corey tomorrow, and especially as the academic folks engage with us in Mormonism, perhaps we'll have these kind of conversations.

01:39:21

I can tell you the lay folks in Mormonism, like I was for 30 years, I know nothing about biblical faith.

01:39:29

First of all, I didn't know my Bible, I didn't know how a Christian would say that you get saved, and I certainly didn't know anything about church history.

01:39:39

I mean, I couldn't have told you anything about the Crusades, or, you know, absolutely nothing about early history, and certainly even

01:39:51

Christian history in the United States. So yes, burnt -over districts led to all kinds of crazy things in the

01:40:00

United States, Mormonism being one of them. Mormons completely unaware of that,

01:40:06

Mormon scholars perhaps having some idea. Would that bring someone to Christ?

01:40:15

You never know, but my thought is the

01:40:20

Word of God is what to use. When I read in Acts 17, 24,

01:40:25

God doesn't live in temples made by human hands, I went, what? I worked in the temple 10 years?

01:40:32

Are you kidding me? The Bible itself refutes Mormonism. By the way, if you want to watch an excellent video actually titled,

01:40:43

Temples Made with Hands, that Jason Wallace has created, you could go to LDS .video.

01:40:50

Jason Wallace is the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah. He's a personal friend, and I actually cooperated on a number of his documentaries on Mormonism, exposing the the heresies of Mormonism through doing voiceovers.

01:41:05

In fact, I did a voiceover for Brigham Young and some other very famous Mormons. So you could go to LDS .video

01:41:13

to find out more about these videos, and I know that Pastor Jason Wallace has interviewed you as well, correct?

01:41:20

Yes, it's amazing. All of those of us who kind of work with Mormons coming to Jesus have a good working relationship.

01:41:31

Sandra Tanner and Mormonism Research Ministry and CARM and IRR, Institute for Religious Research, all of those of us, evidence ministries that kind of reach to Mormons.

01:41:44

We know each other, we work together, sometimes we share people, and it's a wonderful move of God right now, folks leaving

01:41:53

Mormonism. As many as 300 ,000 for us to evangelize every year. Amen.

01:42:00

And by the way, Joe in Slovenia, thank you very much for giving us an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia, because you have also won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today,

01:42:12

Leaving Mormonism, Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds, compliments of Kriegel Publications, and also compliments of CVBBS .com,

01:42:22

who will be shipping the book out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

01:42:28

So we thank both Kriegel Publications and CVBBS .com for their generosity. And thanks

01:42:33

Joe in Slovenia, and thanks for giving us an American address so it will be much more affordable for CVBBS .com

01:42:40

to ship that out to you. We have David in Ada, Ohio, who has a question, and it's providential that you brought up Sandra Tanner, who

01:42:51

I have had on this program a number of years ago when we were broadcasting out of New York. I have to get

01:42:57

Sandra back on the program. Sandra Tanner is the great -great -granddaughter of Brigham Young.

01:43:04

Am I correct on that? It's the great -great -granddaughter, correct? That's correct. And our listener

01:43:09

David in Ada, Ohio, says, my question is, do Mormons follow the teaching of Brigham Young that says,

01:43:15

Adam is our father and the only God which we have to do? No, they would probably tell you that's inaccurate, or they would completely not know that Brigham Young taught that.

01:43:32

Mormonism follows the living prophet, and so they have a tendency to kind of ignore the old stuff unless it came from Joseph Smith, who was the founding father.

01:43:44

So what's interesting in these 13 essays I was talking about where the Mormon Church is trying to explain their own history, with the racism they kind of dumped it on Brigham Young as if it were his problem, but of course it was

01:43:57

Joseph Smith who originally put those 26 verses that say dark skin is a curse into the

01:44:03

Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, as if you can kind of take some of the older prophets and disregard them, because a living prophet can say the exact opposite of what the one before them said, and the most contemporary message is the most true.

01:44:22

The God of Mormonism changes. He's a changing God. Yes, in fact,

01:44:29

I did a voiceover for one of the previous Mormon presidents, and I can't recall his name right now, but he was before Monson.

01:44:39

I did a voiceover quoting him for one of Jason Wallace's videos at lds .video,

01:44:48

and he basically was saying, and this was I think in particular regard to the questions about their change of attitude toward the black race or black people, and basically the prophet was saying, and the president was saying, don't trouble us with questions about what other

01:45:14

Mormon prophets have said before, like Brigham Young. Now is a different day. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but he was saying, you know, listen to what

01:45:21

I say, don't listen to them, but you can't get away with that when those men from the past are declared to be prophets of God.

01:45:29

You can't just dismiss them like that. Well certainly biblical faith has prophets whose message are consistent, so that would make sense, but in Mormonism you have so many inconsistencies you don't even know what to say that they believe, because there are so many, even scriptures are contrary.

01:45:50

The Book of Mormon says polygamy is an abomination to God, and then the Doctrine and Covenants says it's an eternal principle and will be lived in the next life and during the millennium, you know, so because you have all these contrary things, you don't really know what to follow, so you have the voice of a living prophet, and that's what you follow.

01:46:13

And thank you very much, David, in Ada, Ohio. Make sure we have your full mailing address, so cvbbs .com

01:46:19

can also mail you a free copy of the book that we are discussing, Leaving Mormonism, Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds, complements of Kriegel Publications, and compliments of cvbbs .com,

01:46:33

who will be mailing that book out to you. By the way, I just have to take a brief moment because the conference is coming up next week,

01:46:42

I have to take a brief moment to promote the G3 conference, which will be occurring from the 17th through the 20th next week.

01:46:51

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01:46:57

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If you'd like to register for this conference, go to g3conference .com g3conference .com.

01:47:26

The theme is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. The conference begins on Wednesday the 17th of January in an exclusively

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Spanish -speaking edition, and then the English -speaking conference is launched on the evening of Wednesday, January 17th, when

01:47:45

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries debates a Muslim apologist. Then the actual conference in English begins on Thursday the 18th and continues through the 20th.

01:47:58

If you're wondering what G3 stands for, it's Grace, Gospel, and Glory. So go to g3conference .com

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01:49:12

Providing for your family and providing for your church are commands of God. Providing for Iron Trip and Zion Radio is not a command of God, but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands and you love this show and you don't want us to go away, please consider donating to us as much as you can and as often as you can.

01:49:30

And if you want to advertise with us just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:49:35

and put advertising in the subject line. And we have, in fact, we have a question from Pastor Jason Wallace who, as I was mentioning before, he is pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, and he says, let's see, it's he has a very tiny font here and I'm sorry

01:50:00

I've got to I've got to enlarge this. Please ask

01:50:06

Lynn and Michael how you suggest breaking through the mindset of the critics, let's see, breaking through the mindset that all critics are

01:50:21

Mormon bashers. That, yeah, that that is a popular thing for any moderate to liberal individual today, even if they profess to be

01:50:31

Christian, whenever you criticize in any way, even if you're criticizing someone in a loving way about what they believe and what they teach, because doctrine obviously is a very serious thing.

01:50:42

We're not to just believe whatever we feel like believing when it comes to the Christian faith. So obviously our friend

01:50:50

Jason Wallace is saying that there are Mormons who would claim that you, of course, and both of you and any other former

01:50:59

Mormon or even a Christian who has never been a Mormon who is criticizing or critiquing their faith and their doctrines and so on, that they are just Mormon bashers.

01:51:10

What is your response to Mormons who say that? Well, you realize that if you have a faith that is not afraid to present itself as logical, consistent, large, real, then those kind of criticisms make no difference, right?

01:51:34

It's only when you have something to hide.

01:51:40

So typically I would go to the scriptures that say that you should question your faith, that you test the

01:51:49

Spirit, that you use your logical brain. Come let us reason together. Yeah, the

01:51:54

Apostle Paul welcomed the Bereans and applauded them for questioning everything he did, said, and taught according to the scriptures.

01:52:03

And testing it against the word daily, it says, daily. The other place

01:52:09

I go with Mormons when they go there is, well, if you had a faith that was true through the warm and fuzzy feelings alone, but you had another faith that had both the subjective and the objective with evidence that's archaeological, historical, both secular historical, religious historical, you know, go through DNA, plant, animal, if you had a faith that had all of this evidence plus the good feelings, or if you had a faith that just had the good feelings without the evidence, which one would you rather hear about?

01:52:54

You know, and I'll take them through that, and then as a Mormon I had no clue that the biblical faith was so evidential.

01:53:05

I just had no idea. And as a that would have made a lot of difference to me, that kind of rational approach.

01:53:18

And certainly just challenging the idea. See, I challenge this with missionaries often.

01:53:24

A missionary emailed me a couple of days ago, and of course then I challenge him to read the book,

01:53:31

Unveiling Grace, which is our story, and then I'll say, oh, but you can't read that because you're not allowed, you know.

01:53:38

In our faith, we actually invite people to investigate. We want people to ask questions.

01:53:44

We want them to look at all sides of something. Amen. Well, thank you so much,

01:53:52

Pastor Jason Wallace, and you have also won a free copy of the book we are addressing today,

01:53:57

Leaving Mormonism, Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds, and we already have your mailing address, so thank you very much for contributing with an excellent question,

01:54:07

Pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah. Well, I want you both to take the next three minutes of uninterrupted time to just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air today.

01:54:27

Chris, when I came to surrender my life to the God of the

01:54:32

Bible, there was a subjective component to it. Everything changed, and some strange things began to happen.

01:54:43

My thinking changed as I read the Word. Things I thought were true before were not true.

01:54:52

Things I thought were important were not important, and I began to change in ways that I thought was not possible for a woman in her 50s.

01:55:04

I truly became a new creation, and, you know,

01:55:10

Caroline Leaf is a neurologist that talks about the dendrites in your brain, how you think a certain way, it creates these pathways in your brain, and when you learn a new thing, it takes a while for your brain to relearn.

01:55:29

I can tell you what literally took me five years to rewire my brain to be in the

01:55:34

Word every day enough that it was washing me with the Word, but so worth it, so worth it.

01:55:43

I came to a point where I felt so stable in the Lord that I knew what I knew what

01:55:48

I knew, and I literally would die for this, Lord, I think.

01:55:53

I mean, I know Peter said that, and then he, you know, denied the Lord, but this

01:56:00

God is real, and he is worth knowing. And of course we know that Peter did eventually die for his faith, was crucified, according to tradition anyway, was crucified upside down, and did nobly eventually face and experience death on behalf, because of his faith.

01:56:18

Amen. We can just wrap up now by giving your website again.

01:56:25

How do our listeners go to ExMormonChristiansUnitedForJesus?

01:56:32

ExMormonChristiansUnitedForJesus? Yes. UnveilingMormonism .com, or certainly go to AdamsRoadMinistry .com,

01:56:41

UnveilingMormonism .com, or go to Facebook, find me, Lynn Weeding Wilder, or find the book,

01:56:49

Leaving Mormonism, or find the book, Unveiling Grace. Website is

01:56:58

UnveilingMormonism .com. UnveilingMormonism .com. Well, we thank you so much,

01:57:04

Dr. Lynn K. Wilder, for being such a wonderful guest today, and also we thank your husband,

01:57:09

Michael, for being on the program today. If anybody would like to address this subject tomorrow, those of you who we could not get to because of time restraints today, where there are several of you, or more than several, who are waiting to have your questions answered, but we just didn't have time, you can, well, we will save those emails for tomorrow, when we have two more of the contributing authors of Leaving Mormonism on the program, and so, if anybody else would like to address questions as well, just mark down on your calendar, or set an alarm for tomorrow, 4 p .m.

01:57:48

Eastern Time, because we will be continuing this subject with Corey Miller and Vince Echols.

01:57:55

Am I pronouncing Vince's last name correctly? That's correct. Echols is an important name in Mormonism, yes.

01:58:01

Okay, well, that will be tomorrow, as we continue our subject on Leaving Mormonism, Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds.

01:58:08

I want to thank everybody who listened today. I want to especially thank Mormons who may have listened today, and I am praying that the

01:58:18

God of all the universe, the true God of the Holy Scriptures would open your eyes and unstop your ears and replace your hearts of stone with hearts of flesh, that you might repent and truly believe on the only true

01:58:33

Savior that can rescue you from the world of flesh and the devil, from sin and damnation,

01:58:41

Jesus Christ of the Holy Scriptures. And now, let's end this program with more of the wonderful music of Adams Road.