There Actually IS Room for Nuance! - Part 1

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Sean DeMars v Joe Rigney - Part 2

00:00

All right everybody let's get to it today happy Friday everybody I hope you had a productive week and are going to continue to have a productive week going into the weekend.

00:10

I hope you had a weekend planned too you know what I mean I've got a few things planned and I'm definitely going to watch the

00:15

Rangers open up the playoff series against the Capitals which you know we should be able to beat them but you know you never know in the playoffs it's always a bit of a toss -up and then of course they got the

00:27

Mets going against the Dodgers which is going to be very interesting to see how that goes I'm excited

00:32

I'm excited I've got some other stuff going on too of course but but anyway

00:38

I wanted to I wanted to talk about the Room for Nuance podcast and I you could see a smile come to my face even as I mention it

00:49

Sean DeMars did something I did not expect and this is look you know you can think you know

00:58

Big Eva or you think you know a certain style of person and they just continue to surprise you that's the thing about people people surprise you and so I for one am just incredibly grateful so encouraged

01:16

I even emailed Sean to tell him how white pilled I was about the fact that he was even willing to have this conversation and and I'm not kidding

01:26

I'm not not even a little bit of sarcasm here I my heart was totally warm and full when

01:33

I saw that he was going to do this now I happen to know about this interview last week or maybe even the week before I can't remember which because I emailed

01:42

Sean and I said hey Sean you know I'd like to talk to you about this ligand thing in fact he references my email in here in this in this uh in this podcast he calls me a somewhat well known or something like that uh discernment blogger which

01:57

I don't know how to take that but I'll take it though Sean I'll take it but um in any case um

02:04

I emailed him and I said hey man I think I think he sinned I think he sinned in in that interview and uh

02:10

I really think I mean I'd like to talk to you about it and he was willing to talk but he told me he didn't want to talk about the

02:15

Moscow mood stuff because he was going to talk he had already scheduled to talk to Doug about it and I responded to him right away and I said hey looks like no conversation is needed because you've already taken a very good first step um and that's pretty much all

02:30

I was going to try to tell you to do anyway so um he he did that all on his own and um and for that I I am just so grateful and I said it in the many videos we did already on the room for nuance podcast that you don't have to change your opinion on Doug you don't have to like Doug you don't have to do anything like that um but but what you do have to do is um at least be a

02:56

Christian towards him and I messaged him yesterday and I said you know what you've done here is one of the most uh obviously

03:04

Christian things that I've ever seen anyone do when it comes to dealing with someone they disagree with on the right um so hats off to Sean um

03:13

I've got nothing negative to say about the interaction but what I did think I wanted to do and a few of you have recommended this to me as well

03:21

I wanted to comment on some of the um some of the parts of this interview and uh and the reason why

03:29

I wanted to do that is because I I you know it's no secret I I love Doug Wilson there's no question about that I thought some of Doug's answers were a little confusing um and and maybe even a little bit weak and maybe not correct um but that's okay

03:44

I mean you know look and Doug doesn't require a complete agreement to uh to be uh part of his uh mood or so or so to say um and and also

03:56

I I wanted to address some of the things that Sean said not from a place of criticism because again I think he's doing the right thing here but I I just want to uh to help anyone who's in Sean's position or even

04:08

Sean himself I don't know if he ever watches my content maybe yes maybe no who knows but um but I think that there are some things that he said that kind of expose one of the problems that it's so tempting to to to go with um but you have to see it for what it is

04:25

I think Sean's got his mind open and when it comes to this and so again I don't take these words as criticism but I think

04:34

I do have a finger on the pulse here a little bit um one thing that I think is so helpful about professional podcasts like Room for Nuance is that he he separates the sections of the interview so you could easily find them and so uh

04:48

I'm gonna skip around a little bit I'm not gonna do the full two hours and if I miss something that you'd like me to respond to feel free to let me know and I'll consider it um but anyway let's get let's get into it so he starts the conversation talking about how valuable he finds

05:03

Doug Wilson's contributions or at least has in the past uh which uh which is a good place to start and then of course um he talks about how he's moved away from uh the

05:14

Moscow mood kind of thing on his in his own kind of journey and so uh

05:19

I want to start there because I think there's something really important to discuss so let's uh let's begin I wanted to give you guys a little bit of my perspective on how

05:27

I have sort of shifted away from Moscow over the years 10 12 yeah 10 10 or 12 years ago people have been disagreeing with you guys forever but I always found myself being like the

05:40

Doug Wilson or the Moscow or the Cannon Press apologist you know like man they're so bold they're so brave they're so wise they're so careful they're writing about things and tackling things that other people aren't or won't or whatever uh don't be in an echo chamber all of that stuff but what it felt like what what it felt like happened to me especially over the last seven years of me being a pastor is it felt like death by a thousand cuts it felt like okay well

06:11

I don't agree with what he said about certain aspects of chattel slavery in the United States but he says all this other good stuff and then it was well yeah

06:18

I don't agree with theonomy you know but there's all this other good stuff and no federal vision you know

06:24

I'm not even sure I really understand it but from what I do understand of it I I don't really know and yeah

06:30

I did see that article where he used the c word you know so it just it felt like after a while I just could no longer have the same kind of enthusiasm and vigor in defending promoting giving away resources from you guys not that you need me to do that I'm just trying to share my perspective with you on kind of how

06:50

I got to where I've gotten in my relationship with Moscow okay so so let me stop right there and Doug gives a really good answer here um that um

06:59

I think would would be very surprising to a lot of his his you know most aggressive critics um but that death by a thousand cuts thing that that he says um this is absolutely the strategy

07:13

Sean this is the strategy um so what what what's happened um a lot of the times is that a lot of his most aggressive opponents have decided the narrative on Doug right and the narrative sounds something like this he's a misogynist he's a racist and he's a heretic right those are the essential points of the of the uh of the criticism and then so what they do is they they will point you to various things that in their opinion prove their essential thesis and every single time they will bring back the thesis he's a misogynist look he said cunt he's a racist look he he doesn't think that uh chattel slavery was as bad as I think it was and he's a heretic look he's a federal visionist look at this thing he said that's a little different than what we've said in the past and then you hear it again and again he's a racist misogynist heretic racist misogynist heretic a racist misogynist heretic and the strategy is

08:19

Sean that they they know a lot of people will take the bait and they'll say well

08:25

I don't understand federal vision but you know what where there's smoke there's fire you know

08:33

I don't really agree with him on the slavery thing but you know what where there's smoke there's fire yeah

08:41

I mean I wouldn't have used the the word cunt but um and I know he's written a lot on uh on sexual relations that uh are really good but man he used the word cunt so it must be misogynist because I've heard again and again where there's smoke there's fire and that's the strategy that's always the strategy that's the strategy of leftists they say

09:07

Trump is a racist long enough and then you don't even know why it started but you know

09:13

I guess where there's smoke there's fire so it's death by a thousand cuts and and what it requires is just repetition and and and and a few clips that you clip here clip there and you know that they're a little bit shocking and stuff like that and you don't agree with them and then you say well where there's smoke there's fire that's the strategy that's exactly what the strategy is and so you need to recognize that it's as simple as that you need to recognize the strategy for what it is and it you know it comes to the point where you know you have to understand that this kind of conversation is what needs to happen and what needs to be looked at um in order to really understand well is there really fire or is this just a lot of smoke and and is it is it the case that there's a a handful of people that hate

10:09

Doug Wilson's guts that really just have smoke machines and they're just blowing smoke everywhere and saying well there's a fire gotta be a fire that's the thing you've got to be willing to do that kind of stuff especially uh

10:22

Sean when you know for a fact that he's been right and good and helpful on so many things it doesn't mean there isn't a fire but it does mean maybe you should check it out first you know what

10:37

I mean the boy cried wolf quite a few times and it doesn't mean that just because he's done it so many times that there definitely has to be a wolf it could mean that he's just deceiving you or maybe there is a wolf and you got to check it out so that's what

10:52

I'll say to that now now Doug gives a really good answer here about how well you know you're a pastor now and so you need to be a little bit more careful than when you were just uh someone in the pews because someone on the pews has no responsibility well

11:06

I mean that's not true he doesn't have any no responsibility but he doesn't have the same responsibilities and so while I'd understand fully why my brother who's a

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PCA minister might not recommend you know blanket statement uh Stephen Wolf's book um you know without any you know

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I don't know teaching or qualifications or something like that I might understand that I might get it I'm not saying he does that by the way

11:27

I'm just saying he might whereas me I could say yeah read this book it's a really good book it'll help you and I don't

11:34

I don't have any responsibility for the this condition of his soul and I'm not watching over him and stuff like that it makes a big difference and I thought that what

11:43

Doug Wilson said about him reading Rush Dooney and and Gary North as a pastor was different than him reading

11:49

Rush Dooney and Gary North as a regular Joe I agree with all of that it's all really good stuff so I'd recommend that you listen to his answer um the

11:59

I'm going to skip the federal vision stuff but if you are confused about the federal vision uh

12:05

I found that part really good and also my wife um you know I'm definitely a very federal vision friendly um you know if you don't know that about me

12:15

I I am I'm not a federal visionist myself um but I'm also not one of these hey that's the biggest heresy that we've ever seen in the church in the modern times and you know that kind of you know alarmist nonsense um but my wife my even my wife we've had conversations about the federal vision numerous times uh she found this part uh actually very clarifying so um you can go into that if you'd like I'm going to skip it and we're going to jump to the theological triage part let's get into it okay um let's start with this question

12:46

Joe give you a chance to be the provocateur you are so naturally yeah in one of the emails that you and I exchanged

12:52

I said at some point I would love to talk with you about uh empathy and whether or not it's a sin and you wrote back and said

12:58

I would like to talk to you about nuance and whether or not it's a sin Rosario Butterfield told me in my interview that in my interview with her that nuance is a post -modern neologism and we shouldn't use it uh her recommendation for a replacement for that word in our podcast was room for teleology horrible name anyways uh so what say you

13:20

Joe Rigney is is nuance a bad word should we not use it um okay so let me uh let me stop right there and I'll give you my response to this uh but I think

13:29

I do want to listen to Joe's response too because I think Joe Rigney's uh uh presence in this interview was so helpful very very good stuff

13:39

I thought it was excellent um in general and so um my take on nuance is that it doesn't have to be a dirty word in fact

13:48

I call Doug Wilson the nuanced king because sometimes things have to be nuanced and I'm just kind of using that term kind of in an off -the -cuff kind of a way but I think that Rigney's criticism of nuance and also

14:01

Doug's uh is exactly the problem with the bad kind of nuance and so they want to use a different word they want to use the word clarity because there is a kind of nuance that brings clarity but too often nuance and I think that sometimes the way that Sean DeMars uses the word nuance is not about clarity it's about obfuscation and confusion um and um having these weird tensions that don't resolve ever

14:29

I think that's actually a really good criticism of the bad kind of nuance and so I want to let you guys hear this

14:35

I think uh because I I've I've often said that nuance doesn't have to be a dirty word although I often use it as a dirty word because it usually is not a good thing um but these guys kind of put their finger on the pulse of what

14:49

I mean by that and what a good version of nuance is versus a bad version uh so I want to just play the whole thing

14:54

I think I think I would put nuance in the same bucket I'm putting empathy so I've got a category for the good kind of empathy

15:00

I know what I know when people are using it in just a normal um you mean untethered empathy yeah so untethered empathy is the bad thing untethered nuance untethered nuance untethered most any good right yeah all the good things untethered they should all be tethered to Jesus um but nuance suffers from some of the same defects

15:15

I think that empathy does it goes wrong in the same ways and it's going wrong in those ways like right now a lot so um the first the first one would be selectivity so oftentimes the people who advocate most forcefully for nuance we need to be nuanced are selectively nuanced it means that certain people are going to get all kinds of charity and grace and we're going to make allowances but it's going to be selectively applied and there's another group of people who are going to get zero nuance whatsoever they're just going to get hammers they're going to get blm riots j6 protesters right right so nuance yes with one so very good point that's exactly correct the jail the blm riots and the j6 protesters all of that um and when

15:58

I heard Doug say that I started to get a little more a little worried I was like okay

16:04

Doug is a really nice guy and he is a very agreeable winsome kind of a guy when he's interviewing someone like this or being interviewed um and I was worried that he was not going to mention the

16:18

Ligon Duncan interview because that was the perfect example nuance for Tim Keller and then absolutely nothing but grenades and hammers and and and and and chainsaws for Doug Wilson that's the perfect example we have it right before us and um

16:37

I think that again Joe Rigney's presence here really brought it home to that because he he keeps bringing it back to that interview which was um so awful so awful when it comes to this and it just perfectly displays the difference between the bad kind of nuance and the good kind of nuance because that kind of nuance is a weapon is a weapon you use against your enemies and it does not bring clarity it only confuses it only obfuscates it only deceives and so and that was my problem with the original

17:09

Sean DeMar's interview that that he allowed Ligon to do that so um but I'm not going to criticize

17:17

Sean for that anymore because he's actually showing a desire for clarity and a desire for actually the good kind of nuance by doing this interview

17:25

Sean DeMar's deserves a lot of credit and he deserves a lot of support right now because here's the facts and Sean might not know this

17:35

I think I have a suspicion that he probably does know this but Sean broke ranks

17:41

Sean broke ranks with the standard Big Eva operating procedure because if he didn't break ranks he would never have accepted this conversation he wouldn't do it and and and and and it's going to cost him and I'm not gonna

18:00

I'm not sure exactly what it's going to cost him but it is going to cost him because this is not what

18:05

Big Eva does this is not how we operate they don't humanize people like Doug Wilson they demonize him they demonize him they don't even speak his name because it's too humanizing to do that if you notice and and again

18:24

Rigney points this out Ligon doesn't even freaking mention him although he was talking about it's all part of the deception

18:35

I mean we covered that we covered that but man I was so worried and then Joe brings it right back it's just absolutely beautiful I want to continue with this answer because it's wonderful and again

18:46

I think you guys should support and encourage Sean DeMar's because he broke ranks with Big Eva and he will pay a price we don't quite know what that price is but Sean decided it was worth it and he deserves some encouraging even even encouragement even if you don't like how he handled himself in this interview which

19:05

I did like it even if you don't like it he deserves some encouragement he deserves some attaboys he deserves us to get his six because he did the right thing here 100 % he did the right thing here and he didn't curl up into a little into a ball into the fetal position and doing it he didn't just mess around like he asked legitimate questions my favorite question

19:33

I told Sean this yesterday my favorite question and it was a hilarious question and a completely legitimate question is when they start talking about the embargo against Doug Wilson and how nobody talks to him and how you know essentially

19:46

Sean is breaking ranks by doing it kind of similar to how John Piper used to break ranks to talk to Doug and stuff and Sean asks him it's classic and this is he did not curl up into a ball and say oh

19:58

Doug I love you he wasn't a fanboy here what he what he said was Doug isn't it possible that all this embargo stuff is just all in your head

20:07

I was not expecting that I was not expecting that and I was like I remember

20:16

I heard I laughed I laughed I was working out at the time and I and I had my headphones on and I was in the gym and I just laughed and people looked at me like it's a psychopath just laughing to himself

20:26

I thought it was so funny a hilarious and legitimate question and it catches if you notice

20:31

Doug is silent for like five seconds that question caught him off guard because he wasn't expecting it either

20:37

I'm not expecting Sean DeMars a guy like Sean DeMars to ask that question it was an awesome question and it got a very interesting response which we'll talk about in just a moment but uh or maybe in the next episode or something like that but awesome stuff man give go over to Sean DeMars page right now and don't bother him don't harass him don't insult him no sarcasm tell him that he did a good job because he did he broke ranks he did the right thing and he deserves a lot of credit for that Sean DeMars hats off to you buddy hats off to you lock them up in the other yeah that's selective nuance right exactly the other thing is

21:20

I think um my my substitute for nuance the thing that I'm always after is clarity which

21:26

I think gets you everything that so like the way that I think compassion biblical compassion gets you everything that empathy the good stuff that's in empathy but then more

21:34

I think clarity gets you everything good that's in nuance and more so the difference is this nuance is often um hey we want to like um we need to show that this thing um is as complex as it is so um it's complex and I need to show its complexity that's the good kind of nuance and I want to say amen if it's complex we should make sure we're nuancing and showing that complexity clarity gets you that but clarity also says and if it's simple we better show that it's simple okay and you get both whereas nuance sometimes will bleed in and say we're going to try to here's something that's really simple and we're going to complexify it because of nuance so all of a sudden things that ought to be just straight down the middle clear are muddied by those who are advocating for nuance and then on top of that nuance when they face a truly complex problem they assume complex problems cannot be solved right so the only problems that can be solved are the simple ones yeah and they complexify everything uh complicate everything and then once you have your complex problem you don't never have to get to an answer which is the which is the off ramp to relativism right so uh why can't and I can always tell a liberal or a budding liberal if they start to wrestle with the contours of something right that they wrestle with problems well why can't we beat them up right why do we always have to wrestle and it's like jacob and the angel wrestling to a stalemate and then no resolution and so after all the nuance smoke is cleared we still don't know what we're supposed to do so I would so I would that's why

23:19

I'm always aiming for clarity I want to show clear things simple things to be as straightforward as they are if something is complicated

23:26

I want to show that complexity and I think clarity gets both whereas nuance can get one of them but often complicates straightforward things

23:36

I think I understand what you're saying conceptually I just don't know in in the way that people speak if that if that holds up I mean certainly if you train the people around you to talk like that and think like that maybe it can bleed out from there in a good way praise god but nuance talking about shades of meaning it feels like as soon as you use the word clarity at some point you're going to have to explain that you're using the word clarity because this is a complicated subject that requires a nuanced discussion well it would be like even with the federal vision so you know excuse me yeah so I think he's got a point there that people use the word nuance excuse me differently and so you know

24:26

I don't really have too much of a problem with just continuing to use the word nuance but you do have to when you're using the word nuance you have to be disciplined in how you use it and there's zinger coming up right here that I think really kind of puts a fine point on the problem with nuance let's check let's check it out there's a good example of there's layers of issues involved here from your practices to what you think the practices mean to this theology that undergirds them there's lots of layers involved there so you would say hey

24:57

I want let's be nuanced about this I'd say just to simply let's be clear about it let's clarify what the nub of the issue is at each place but the goal of clarity is to then bring resolution now we got to choose is it this or is it that it's going to push us towards action whereas nuance allows us to kind of sit in the fog that's that's at least the danger of it but I but if someone so I know that when you're doing it you got a podcast name room for nuance and having listened to it

25:20

I think you do a great job of trying to trying to bring the clarity I think I think you're trying to bring clarity and using it for nuance and just like normal people who use the word empathy to mean sympathy or compassion yeah

25:30

I'm not going around correcting everybody but I'm still going to wave the banner and say it's a good it's a good bet than a theological conversation about say sexuality first person to name nuance is probably going liberal sure sure did you hear that that was that was a zinger man that was good it's a good bet that if you're having a conversation about let's just say uh theology and sexuality sexuality the first person to use the word nuance is going liberal that's exactly it that is exactly it great point what a statement and it put it puts a fine point on the problem with nuance so often and so you know

26:18

I'm I'm okay to be like you know nuance you know is generally not good in theological conversations the way it's used but doesn't have to be bad in fact

26:29

I often even the cross -politic guys who are taking offense you know in in jest of course of me calling them nuanced kings just like Doug is the nuanced emperor but I meant the good version the good version in any case so I'm fine with that I'm with the complication of using the same word to mean something good or bad but I do understand exactly what

26:52

Rigney's saying and I agree with it completely so good stuff there let's just finish the nuance section here and we'll we'll save the the next section for for tomorrow and there's going to be no nuance for a racist there's going to be no nuance for J6 even the interview you did with I think demonstrated this precisely because it was new there was nuance in all sorts of places except a few and then all of a sudden the nuance went out the window um and and it's not there was no nuance about Moscow mood but there was nuance about a whole host of other things we anticipated uh people being squeamish about the word nuance and put out a video before the podcast yeah we'll we'll uh we'll we'll stop there

27:34

Joe Rigney's uh presence here like I said was the key um no no disrespect to Doug uh he did what

27:43

Doug does uh but but Joe Rigney was very he went into this with a mission to talk about uh

27:51

Ligon Duncan's appearance because that was so bad so bad and they challenged

27:57

Sean about his participation in it um you know in a in a nice way these guys are they're very good people you know they're very uh friendly people they're warm they do it in a warm way maybe

28:09

I shouldn't use the word nice because that has negative connotations too but they're very warm people and they challenged

28:15

Sean in a very warm way I don't think he would disagree with that um but uh but anyway guys we're gonna stop there we've been at it for 30 minutes if you have not watched this you can either watch it with me or watch it on your own

28:29

I highly recommend you watch it on your own because that way you'll get it done very quickly um but if you want me to continue doing this let me know if there's any points in this that you definitely want me to cover let me know and have a great weekend guys