Hope in the Midst of Hell | Theocast

The Hope of Heaven in a Fallen World

Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we have a conversation about the hope of heaven. And you can't have a conversation about the hope of heaven without being honest about life in this world. And we live in a world where we bury our children and only an insane person would look around and say that things are as they should be.

So what hope can we have in this life under the sun? John and I today, we're gonna talk about that hope, that hope has a name. And he has said that he's gonna bring us to be with him where he is. We believe in a God who is gonna make all things new and wipe all the tears from our eyes.

If that's something that you need to hear, as it's something that John and I needed to talk about for our own souls, stay tuned and listen to today's podcast. We hope it encourages you and comforts you in the midst of your affliction.

If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word. It's called pietism. You ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy, that you wake up worrying about how well you're gonna perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

It's dread versus joy, really, that's pietism. Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope, not in what Christ has done,.

But what they're doing.

And we have a little book for you, it's free. We want you to download it. And we're gonna explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism, Reformed theology, really, how it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

You can download it on our website. Just go to theocast .org.

Conference Update and Ministry Announcements

Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a confessional, Reformed, and pastoral perspective. Your hosts today are John Moffitt, who is Pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, and I am Justin Perdue, Pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

John, we're here together in the same location because we have just finished the founding event conference charter meeting thing for the Grace Reformed Network. And it's been a good few days. It's been good to be together.

It's been really sweet to be with like-minded people and a number of like-minded pastors. It's encouraged my soul.

The singing was pretty epic.

The singing was incredible.

Shout out to Jeremy Bryant for that.

Yeah, and it's wonderful to hear the saints sing, right?

It was great.

What an encouragement it is, yeah. And we're tired physically, but we've been preparing for this episode and we'll talk about what that is going to be about.

In a moment.

And I'm happy to have this conversation.

Yeah.

And yeah, I know you have a few announcements.

For those that are only listening to this episode, if I don't mind jumping in.

No, please.

We've been praying and talking about GRN for a very long time. And it's to the glory of God that we did, we had 10 churches sign.

Yeah, and we talked about how we've intentionally, we're trying to do this slow. We're trying to do this thoughtfully. We're trying to do it well, start it small so that we can do this in a healthy manner.

But man, yeah, when that moment happened, when at the end of the business portion of our time today, when the representatives were going to have signees come, sign the document, that was a very sobering and kind of thrilling moment.

Like, whoa, this is coming to fruition.

Years, years of work.

Yeah.

So yeah, God be praised.

Praise the Lord for that. If this is new, you don't know what it is. Grace Reformed Network is obviously a network of 1689 Lennon Baptist confessional churches. And hopefully the Lord will continue to grow as we plant and add more churches and so that you'll be able to go to the website and see if there's a church near you, if you move or are looking for a church.

So continue to pray for us. If you'd like to support us, you can go to the website, GraceReformedNetwork .org.

Do you have any announcements Theocast related?

Well, we had four lectures and four panels and multiple Qs and As and discussions about Logospotisting, everything we've been announcing and that if it's not available, it will be very soon on the website.

Or for those of you that are part of the community or haven't joined the Theocast community, you can go there and listen right on your phone. So if you haven't joined the community yet, I think it's at six, maybe 700 people in there now.

And it's just a great place with all of our resources, but more importantly, a community of people who love Reformed theology and resting in Christ.

Yeah, word.

That's it, that's all I got.

Cool.

We don't have a title for this episode right now. We're gonna come up with it after the fact, but we've had a really sweet conversation, you and I, and then a couple of the guys here with us about the hope of heaven, but maybe even more specifically, the hope of heaven, when we contrast that with the vanity and the hopelessness that we often feel in this life.

That's right.

I said it, that Ecclesiastes has always been one of my favorite books in the scripture. And that perhaps says something about my frame, but it's always resonated with me, the words of Solomon regarding the vanity of life on earth.

And it's kind of like he says things that we as Christians, at least in the polished, put together American Christian thing, it's like, bro, you shouldn't talk like this. And it's as though he says, well, this is how things are.

So what do you have for me? And we're going to get into that subject matter, I know in the conversation, but we want to talk about the reality of suffering and pain and the fact that this is not our home.

Yet there are times for a whole host of reasons, our sin, the deception of the enemy, we get very comfortable here, but there is a homeland that we're waiting for. And we are awaiting the return of our savior.

And he has said he's going to bring us to be with him where he is. That's our hope. And so just, we're going to talk honestly about suffering and pain and the reality of life in a fallen world, but yet the hope of heaven, the return of Christ and everything related to that.

And I'm feeling this in this moment. I know you are too. And I hope this is encouraging to the listener.

Grief, Death, and the Reality of the Curse

Yeah.

Acknowledging pain and suffering goes against the modern context of the American Christian life. We try to avoid as much pain and suffering as possible. And I'm not against that. I mean, I love modern technology and all that, but what I mean is the actual frailty and the realities of suffering and death, right?

To spare details and protect people, you and I were both just discussing circumstances in our congregations where there is grief. And I don't mean grief like I lost my cat. I mean grief like I lost my child.

Yeah, right.

Grief like you're mourning a parent's death or cancer. Or there is a reason why the Bible often and repeatedly points the believer to something. And I love how it says new. Like it's not just a little bit better, it's new.

It's a new creation where the old curse is not involved, where death will not remain. So when you're thinking about, I mean, if we're just going to be frail and open with our listeners and with each other.

We should.

There are times, there are things in this world that bring us joy. My children, my wife, my church, Jiren this weekend. And the reason why they bring me joy, it's because of how they're connected to Christ, right?

And the Lord's goodness to you.

Exactly, exactly. But when you remove yourself from the temporal pleasures of this world and you open your eyes to the reality of what really happens, I'll say this, this is super dark, but I'm going to say it anyways.

If I were to die at the same age my father passed away, I have seven years left, seven. He's been gone for 21 years now. And there's something morbid, but yet very realistic about the experience of my life from now till then.

Right. You know?

Bro, in a similar way, I think my parents are aging. And I think about the ages at which all my grandparents died.

That's right.

And I do the math on a regular basis.

That's right.

Of, well, if my mom or my dad died at this age that my grandmother or my grandfather died, then this is how many years we got left, et cetera. I mean, this is how we live, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, and death is, sometimes people want to treat death as something we celebrate. Jesus didn't.

No.

He wept over it. Exactly. Death is sorrowful. Now, to be clear, Paul says we don't. We don't weep.

Right, and there's a sense in which death for the Christian, it's needed because we're actually gonna be set free. We'll no longer be dragging the corpse of the old nature around. It's why we still need to die.

So there is a sense in which death for the believer is not to be feared. And yet, because it is this ripping apart of the physical and then the spiritual pieces of who we are as humans, it's a harrowing thing.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, there's even a command from Paul. It says, weep of those who are weeping. Romans says, not only does the creation mourn,.

But we mourn.

We groan inwardly.

It groans and we do too, yeah.

Set Your Hope on the World to Come

So I think that there's, not intended to have this in this podcast, but I'll mention it now. There's a secret theology of glory that comes in and it destroys those who are suffering. Let me put it this way.

If you've ever been in deep, deep, dark bouts of grief, when you're around people a lot, they don't like it. And so they'll say things that think will wipe the grief away. Think about heaven or think about, they're not suffering anymore or whatever it is that they'll try and kind of give a little bit of an antidote or they'll tell you, you should be over this by now as if somehow grief has a time limit to it.

But brother, it's as sudden as laughter. It just comes upon you.

That's right.

Yeah, when I describe grief to people, grief is living with a constant limp.

Yeah.

It's like losing a part of who you are.

It's like when people have a limb amputated.

It's a phantom pain.

It's like, yeah, you no longer have your arm, but you feel as though you do and it hurts.

Yeah, and being able to sit down and look someone in the eyes and says, I do not understand your pain, but I am willing to grieve with you. There is an instant sense of comfort of not being alone. Most people who grieve, they suffer alone because for whatever reason in our culture, we want to move back into pleasure and we want to move back into not living in reality because reality causes us to force, it forces us to deal with death and no one wants to think about death.

Yeah, I have so many thoughts in my mind.

I mean, even Justin, I'll just say this now. Israel was forced to live amongst death, the sacrificial system. Our culture barely even sees death's body anymore.

Sure, and of course, the sacrificial system and the death that was perpetually around Israel is teaching them this is what the wages of sin is, right? And in order to atone for sin, but that's applicable in this conversation because all of the suffering and the pain and the fact that this world is not our home is a result of the curse and it's a result of what sin has done.

Therefore, we need to be delivered from this, right? And Christ needs to return to make all things okay. He comes to make his blessings flow, like joy to the world, right? About his second advent. No more let sins and sorrows grow nor thorns infest the ground.

He comes to make his blessings flow far as the curse is found, right? That's what we are hoping for and longing for. You're talking about how people, I trust that people mean well in some senses and I think you hit on something that's also true.

We're all selfish and to be around people who are grieving and heartbroken is uncomfortable. And so a lot of times it's self-serving in the ways that we say these things that it's like, oh, well, you know, like in a better place or whatever.

And so in some senses, good intentions, in some senses, self-serving motivations, well, welcome to the paradox that there's always a mixture in what we do, but.

But don't you feel better when I send my thoughts your direction?

Seriously.

Yeah, I'm appreciative of your thoughts. I, man, it's, so I quote it all the time. C .S. Lewis, he wrote a book when his wife died called A Grief Observed. Now he didn't even write it under his own name at the time because he was so concerned about what it would do to the faith of people who had read many of his other works.

Because it's very raw. And he has a quote in there that is very, it's excellent. He says, talk to me about the truth of religion and I'll listen gladly. Talk to me about the duty of religion and I'll listen submissively.

But don't come talking to me about the consolation of religion or I will know that you do not understand. And even in the conversation we're having today about the hope of heaven and the hope of Christ's return, we are not for one second saying that it just takes the pain away.

But it does give you a filter to push the pain through. Right, and yeah, go ahead.

So there is one of our elders who was in Afghanistan during the, help me out, Andrew, what was it? It was the Gulf War, thank you. And so Gulf War, wrong location, but he said when they were there, they were given zero timelines of how long they would be there to serve.

And it created despair in the soldiers because they didn't, there was no end in sight to the pain and to the suffering and to being away from their families. You and I are both away from our homes and we know what tomorrow brings, right?

Reunion, restoration, and rest with our, what brings comfort to us in our homes. And it's interesting how the scriptures encourages that. Like there is a limit to the suffering and what comes is not supposed to be mysterious in its full form.

It is actually something to long for. I mean, even Peter talks about set your hope fully on the grace that is to come. Or Colossians, when it says that we are looking where? Upwards, we're looking towards Christ where he is seated.

That's where we're setting our hope fully up into the heavens, right? Or the new heavens and the new earth. And we do know that there's a time limit to the suffering because there's a death date waiting for us.

And so when Jesus comes to his disciples warning them about what they are to face, he says, look, don't put your treasures here because they will absolutely destroy you. Where does it say? Put your treasures in a place where the hope is.

Yeah, and where nothing's gonna destroy that.

That's right.

We tend to hope in this world too much. And that's very easy in particular for American Christians where we're thankful, John. I mean, we were saying this. We're thankful for common grace. And there's a sense in which, even kind of living in this Ecclesiastes moment, right?

That it's a good thing for us to enjoy the work of our hands and to enjoy good food and good drink and good friends and loved ones because this is good for man. And yet Solomon says, it's better to go to the house of mourning than it is the house of feasting, right?

Why is that? Well, I mean, it could be put this way. You know, we live in a world where we bury our children and only an insane person would look around at this.

And say, this is as it should be, right?

Yeah.

We all feel that.

We do, right?

And so why is it better to go to a house of mourning? Again, we're not trying to be dark in this. It's actually, isn't it interesting how in having a conversation about the hope of heaven and the hope of Christ's return, you cannot help but have the really dark conversation about this world?

Because everything is turned upside down.

Right.

So I was saying to you guys before we recorded, and maybe this is something about my frame, but I think a lot of people live here where the times when I am most encouraged and gripped and moved by the hope of heaven and the return of Jesus is when I am faced with either the reality something has happened or I am gripped by fearful, harrowing, haunting thoughts of the people I love the most dying.

When I think about whether it's my parents or my wife or my kids and something happening to them, or I mean, even, honestly, I mean, Mackenzie or you, or it's just like when those thoughts haunt you, there's something about them.

It's terrible on the one hand, and on the other hand, it's like, all right, I'm faced with a decision here. What do I believe?

That's right.

About life after the grave?

That's right, that's right.

Right?

I mean, eternity has been written in a man's heart. Now it's been done in such a way where man cannot know what God has done from the beginning to the end, but it has been written in our hearts. That's undeniable, I think, for all people, but as Christians, what do we believe?

That's right.

And in those moments, I'm thankful that the Lord is so gracious because in spite of any instinct that I would ever have, like other humans might, to just distract and flee from it, in those moments, I think I am most inclined to lean into the words of Christ.

That's right.

My, you cited Peter, and I can't remember what else, Colossians?

Mm-hmm, Colossians chapter three.

So for me, the two of the verses that, I mean, well, three passages, they're all in John's gospel for me. When I'm faced with these things, I mean, one may be obvious is in John 11, where Jesus is around the death of Lazarus and Martha and Mary, they're mourning and they're weeping, and his word is just that I'm the resurrection and the life, you know, and it's like, I don't know everything, and my faith is often weak, but I believe that.

That's right.

And then John 14, you know, that I am, I've gone to prepare a place for you, that's where I'm gonna go, and I wouldn't tell you that that was the case.

If it wasn't true.

And it's like, Jesus, I believe you, and you say that you're gonna come and you're gonna bring me to be with you where you are.

It's like, I trust that.

Yeah, I know we're gonna cry. John 17, 24, you know, that Jesus is praying to the Father that we would be with him where he is so that we could behold his glory that was given to him before the foundation of the world.

The Father hears that prayer, and it's like, yeah, I trust Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to deliver on this thing. My faith is weak. I doubt a lot, but at the end of the day, where else are we gonna go?

That's right, amen.

You have the words of eternal life.

Amen, amen.

I'm sorry to be so emotional about it, but it's good.

Theocast Community and the Tactic of Satan

Hey, guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions. So where do you go? How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

We have started something called the Theocast Community. We're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

You can go check it out. The link is in the description below. One of the things when we were discussing this episode ahead of time is there is a tactic of Satan that has worked. The prosperity, now we mostly speak to an American audience.

We do have a lot of people outside the world, but primarily an American audience. The American culture in many ways is freed from a lot of the pain and suffering that the world experiences.

For sure.

Like you and I have actually never had to bury a dead person.

Like physically ourselves.

No, not yet.

Touch them, move them, put them there.

Yeah, because there are people that do those things.

That's right.

Thanks, bud.

When I was in college, I worked for a hospital. One of the jobs that I had to do was transport patients from the operating room, and I, within my first few months, we had a 14-year-old girl that had passed away, and I had to deal with it.

And that was my first experience of actually watching someone go from life to death within minutes. And I remember just walking back in the locker room and just crying because I was overwhelmed. I had never seen someone right in front of me leave.

They were gone, right? And about two years later, three years later after that, I experienced the same thing with my father and watching his lifeless body. He was alive, and then two seconds later, he's not.

And there's that frailty that happens where everything around you just becomes meaningless from a physical realm. And what's so hard about Christianity in America is we try and console ourselves with the physical realm constantly.

And the hope that is brought to us has nothing to do with the natural. I mean, even when Jesus says, set your hope not on the things of this world, but on the things of another world, and we can't think of another world, right?

And so when someone comes to me, or we're sitting in front of them, or we're sitting in front of each other and we're trying to console each other, it's not going to get better.

Not here.

You know, we're not going to get through this.

No, no, yeah.

I don't even know what that means, right?

Yeah, like with all due respect, what are you talking about?

That's right. But what we do is we consider how to encourage one another. And we sing and we pray and we uplift and we look and we lift our eyes to the hope, right? Where the hope comes from something far beyond the grave.

Amen, brother.

Our Otherworldly Hope in Christ

We talk often about how confessionalism is unapologetically otherworldly. And we talk often about how, whether it is a material prosperity gospel or even a spiritual version, so much of what exists. And so the prosperity gospel, like materially, we can kind of throw that aside.

I don't trust any of our listeners are wrestling with that. But I trust that many people who are listening to this podcast either are in or have come from an environment that is effectively an easy listening prosperity theology that is of a spiritual kind, right?

Where you are told that if you do the right things and if you discipline yourself the right way and you reflect this way and your affections, you get those in order and you apply this the right way, then you will become so spiritually strong that you will live above the fray.

And you'll be impervious to it.

That's right.

And you won't feel the depth of things that we're talking about right now because you're just gonna be so spiritual.

That's right.

And it's like, that's not helpful. In reality, what we need to say is that this religion called Christianity is not about this world at all, actually. It's about the world to come. It's about an other world, a different one.

And we're preparing ourselves in our gatherings every Sunday and in the ways that we live as a church. We are preparing ourselves for that world and that life. It's not about this one.

That's right.

And we've said this before. As far as this life is concerned, we are trying to obviously rescue as many as we can. But then ultimately of those who are rescued and brought in to this thing that is the church, this hospital, this haven, this outpost of the kingdom of God, like as many people are as brought into this thing, we're gonna help one another die with hope and dignity so that we might transition and pass from this world to the next.

So we're reading the Chronicles of Narnia.

It's all good, brother.

At home. And we just finished the voyage of the Dawn Treader.

Not long ago.

And you know, there's that gripping scene where Reep Achieve is passing into eternity. If you haven't read it, sorry, any spoil alert, sorry. But man, it's so incredible.

We were talking about this on Monday.

Oh my gosh. I mean, not only you can talk about like the transformation of this character over the course of several of the novels and different things, and then how he is so eager to pass into eternity.

And then of course, not that many pages after that the ship reaches this shore and they go ashore and they're invited to come by a lamb who is cooking fish. Hey, come and have breakfast. And then as they're standing there, behold, the lamb becomes a lion, right?

And he's there with them. It's just like the whole thing. I'm reading it to my children. I can't even make it through it. And I'm like, guys, I'm so sorry. But this is what we're talking about. It's an otherworldly thing.

Right, and there is something gripping about, like some people then say, but why? And it says, because Christians can offer the world something that's more than sex, money, and fame.

That's why.

Yeah, exactly.

Because that's what Americans are doing right now. We are trying to find, we're trying to fill the void of pain and suffering and loss with sex, fun, money, and entertainment. That's what we're trying to do.

And it doesn't work. And then Hebrews comes and he says, but you have a great high priest who knows your frailty. And you can go to him and he will hear you and he will comfort you with his words and with his spirit.

And that you then can take this to every suffering person who is under the wrath of God, who is trying to get out from underneath the wrath of God by means that will never happen. And you can give them a hope that says, you are going to continue to suffer and die.

So you have two options. Your way or the way of the sympathetic high priest who loves those who believe in him, he dies for them. And there comes a moment where the church goes from, hey, let's get together and figure out how to have a good time.

To when you have people who are suffering, you can say, let us weep and let us hold each other as we long for the King to return. Right, let us, actually, you know what? There's a song, man, you're gonna have to help me out.

I can't think of it. But he says our suffering is not wasted.

Right, so yeah, Christ is mine forevermore. Mine are tears in times of sorrow, darkness not yet understood. Through the valley I must travel where I see no earthly good. But mine is peace that flows from heaven and strength, and mine is strength in times of need.

I know my pain will not be wasted. Christ completes his work in me, right? The one who for once, once and for all time made a sacrifice for sins and sat down. You know, who's perfected for all time, those who are being sanctified.

And that's Hebrews 10.

That's right.

Hebrews 11, right? There's the beautiful passage of how, like there are those who, they're looking for a homeland. And if Canaan, right, those who had faith in the Lord and they died without having fully realized what they were hoping for.

And if they had been, they were looking for a homeland, and if Canaan had been it, right? That's one thing. But as it is, they look for a better country, a heavenly one.

That's right.

Right, and the Lord, therefore, is not ashamed to be called our God because we long for that heavenly country and he's prepared for us a city.

That's right.

We're pilgrims. I mean, we talk about this a lot. We're pilgrims and sojourners in this life. And I think we need to take that to heart a lot more than we do, because we feel too at home here. And I'm not meaning to like rebuke us all, but I mean, on the one hand, yeah, we should be rebuked.

We should be rebuked. Well, and yeah, there's that. There's another thing. You were talking about earlier the illustration of one of the elders at your church who had fought in the Persian Gulf War. Yesterday, we're here for GRN, right?

And I was preaching a sermon yesterday evening and we were all here kind of for the dinner break here at the house. And I had to go upstairs to look over my notes and you guys were all down here. And I could even up there, I mean, I put my earbuds in, but I could still hear just like the roar of laughter.

And I mean, last night and every night after this event, and I trust even tonight, as tired as we are, there's gonna be a lot of laughter. And I can't help but think of how effectively what this is. Like we as believers in this life, or for those of us here, we're pastors.

We're engaged in the fight. You read the war novels or you watch the war movies. How often are there, for whatever reason, when I think of war stuff, I often go to the trench warfare of World War I. So horrific, man.

I just have these images of like dudes in these trenches and it's wet, it's cold, there's barbed wire everywhere, there's bullets flying, it's just death, it's terrible. But yet there they are sitting down in the trenches in these brief moments of reprieve, smoking a cigarette, telling stories and laughing.

Right, and it's kind of like what we do here.

It's a moment of break.

Right, it's a merciful distraction. And it's like, yeah, we laugh and we enjoy one another, but let's not get this twisted in terms of what we're doing.

Here's a moment of vulnerability for me. There are times when I am at home walking through the kitchen after a long day of work, and I'm just carrying a ton of burdens, a ton of weights. And the proverb always comes to my mind, there's laughter is a medicine.

And I just laugh, I just laugh. My wife's like, what's funny? I said, and then she goes, oh. And there's just a moment where I start thinking about all of the weight and all of the, and it's like, I need a break.

I need a break from this. And it's just this weird habit I've started. Andrew's been around me where this has happened. I've just laughed, like, this is nuts. This is so hard, this is so crazy. Like, I need a break from this.