Battling Discouragement | Theocast

Battling Discouragement and the Normality of Christian Sorrow

Hi, this is John, and today on Theocast, Justin, Jimmy, and I are going to have a conversation around discouragement, specifically battling discouragement. We do believe that it's something that you just don't overcome in this life as a Christian.

We're going to talk about what causes it, how it's normal, and you're not crazy. And then how is it that we should fight day after day to find our hope in Christ as we walk through the dark holes of discouragement?

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Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ. Conversations about the Christian life from a Reformed and pastoral perspective. Today, your host, believe it or not, it is more than just two of us.

We get the joy of welcoming back Jimmy B., Mr. Jimmy Buehler from Willmar, Minnesota, pastor of Christ Community Church, and Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church, and then myself, John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church here in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

Oh, I forgot, Justin is actually in Asheville, North Carolina. It has been so long since I have done a three intro, I can't even do it straight. But Jimmy, let's give the people what they want. Welcome back, my friend.

It is good to be back, my guys. It's been a long time. It's been a long time.

People have been asking for an update, and we've been kind of waiting so we could do it here. So, when Jimmy first started with Theocast, his life was a whole lot less complicated than it is today. That's right.

For those of you who don't know, and I'll let Jimmy speak into this, but he is a full-time teacher, which is about a 30-hour week job. Yeah, just 30. Yeah. I reached that by noon. That's right. And also, in his second year, going into his second year of church plant, there's a lot to do there.

With the church plant, you only work on Sundays. That's right.

It's just not that big a deal. Just change Kanye's song to work on Sunday. That's it. That's all you got to do. That's it. One day. That's right. Yeah. So, Jimmy definitely has a future with Theocast.

We're going to be, just because of his schedule and how things are working right now, he's going to be working what's called a regular contributor position, so he will have him on regularly, but you won't be able to hear him week to week.

But that doesn't mean you won't be hearing from him. You'll still be hearing from him quite often through his articles. He's going to be in our upcoming book that we have on Reformed Theology, so you still will get to hear his words written.

That's right. Absolutely.

Talk to us, Jimmy. Yeah. So, yeah, a lot of the listeners might know I teach at a Christian school here in West Central Minnesota, and it's a good role, and we're grateful. My wife and I are grateful, and my church is very grateful because it allows me to not be financially stressed with our church plant as we grow and seek to get established, particularly in a post-COVID world.

And so we've been working a lot, well, just working a lot. And so it's good for me, and I think it's just good for the ministry of Theocast to have a more clearly defined role with what I am doing. And this just allows these two guys, I mean, honestly, we can say all this that we want, but let's just be honest, you're kicking me off because I'm ugly.

I mean, that's really what it is.

I mean, when you stand up next to Justin, you don't have a chance. That's right.

That's right. We all can't be a specimen. But I mean, that's just the way it is.

Can we just speak to that and say he's the one who's modeling our gear, and you and I don't do it. He is. Well, here.

Here's my water bottle. There you go. And then, you know, shout out to 1517. Come on. There you go. So no, it's good. I'm looking forward to contributing through writing occasional podcast here and there.

But yeah, I'm excited to go this new direction.

So he'll be with us today. And then in a couple weeks, you guys get to hear him again. And it's always good to have him back on. People always like great podcast today. So when's Jimmy coming back? I am the man of mystery.

Yeah. So now the mystery has been solved. So Justin, pretty good book giveaway today. Talk to us about it.

Good book giveaway. As always, we like to get good resources in the hands of our listeners. And so today we're going to be giving away a book by our brother Sinclair Ferguson entitled By Grace Alone. The subtitle of that book is How the Grace of God Amazes Me.

Always a wonderful thing to consider, the grace of God in the gospel and how the Lord is graciously inclined to us and all the things that he has done for us that we could never earn, never deserve. And so today our winner, randomly selected, always under the providence of our good and sovereign God, Richard Clayton, who is one of our SR members.

Richard has won this free copy of By Grace Alone by Sinclair Ferguson. And Richard, if you would just shoot us a message, man, with your details in terms of where to ship this book and we will happily get that headed your way.

And if you are listening to this podcast as it releases today on a Wednesday, we want to give away one additional free copy of this wonderful resource to one of our listeners. And so the way that you can potentially be the person to win this second free copy is to go to any of our social media platforms today on Wednesday as you listen to this podcast released.

So that would be Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. You can go there and find instructions on how you could be the other person to win a free copy of By Grace Alone by Sinclair Ferguson. I trust those instructions will be clear enough, especially for all of you tech savvy folks out there.

I know what you're doing on the social media interwebs. So there we have it. Hmm. Well, John.

Why Discouragement Is Normal in a Fallen World

Yeah. Let's do it. Redirect us, man. What are we talking about today? Yeah. Well, as the podcast title says, we're going to be discussing Battling Discouragement, which this book we'll mention later, it does play into that and it's kind of why we chose it.

Uh, we, there, this may sound weird and pretentious, but as far as great reformed material that is helpful, it's because it's hard to recommend, you know, 52 a year, uh, and not do multiple. So we're trying our best to give you different options, but when it comes down to stuff that's been written, it's hard to, it's hard to do so, but we do our best today.

We're talking about battling discouragement and the word battle is a very important word as it comes to relationship to our struggle with being discouraged. One of the things that I knew early on in my life is that I know I battled it and still do, but it wasn't a word that you used.

Um, often you would hear things about like overcoming or increasing or how do you not struggle and there was never an acknowledgement of the struggle. And I love the title of this podcast because it is a battle and it's one of those things that, uh, it's not a war that can be won, not here, not now.

And that's what we're going to talk about today is what is the struggle? What does it look like? And are you in sin or not in sin? And how do we go every day into that battle and acknowledge the fact that we are going to be faced with not only just spiritual discouragement, but physical, emotional, cultural, familial.

There's a lot of ways in which we can get slammed on our backs, as I said earlier, uh, with just flat out discouragement. So gentlemen, I'm going to just send you a softball, but, uh, the word, the, the phrase battling discouragement, what is the first thing that comes to mind, especially when I gave you guys this topic ahead of time saying, Hey guys, this is what we're going to talk about.

What came into your mind? We'll start with you, Jimmy.

Yeah. So I think the first thing I want to differentiate between is, I think there's a difference between being discouraged and then also having a disposition of grumbling or complaining, right? Like those are two different things that you, you, you said it just a few moments ago.

Like is it, is it sin to be discouraged? Like are we in a posture or position of unrepentant sin if we are discouraged about something? And so there's just all sorts of ways that we can walk through that.

But something we need to recognize is that we are fallen people that live in a fallen world with other fallen people. And so we are bound to run into relationships and situations and diagnosis and, and, and all of these different things that bring about a discouraged spirit within us.

And so we recognize that as Christians, we are called to be a people of hope that as we look forward to the return of Christ, when he will wipe away every tear and he will make right every wrong and turn sorrow into joy, that we are called to be hopeful in light of that.

And yet we also recognize what the apostle Paul says in second Corinthians chapter four, that we are also jars of clay, that as we carry the hope of gospel, as we carry the hope of the gospel, you know, we, we carry this treasure as jars of clay to show that the surpassing worth belongs to Christ.

And so are we in sin if we are discouraged? I mean, I would say, well, I think that's kind of actually a normal experience is that as we walk through life now, when that shifts into grumbling and complaining.

I think that is a completely different posture and we can get into that, but I want to pass it to Justin because I know he has some, some words as well. Sure.

I agree with you, man. What I was going to lead off with is the fact that in a fallen world, discouragement is normal. As it's been said before, I mean, we live in a world where we bury our children, you know, and only a crazy person would look around and say that everything is as it should be.

And so in this life, oftentimes because of, as has been touched on, we may unpack these one at a time, but because of circumstantial realities in a fallen world, in a world that's broken and doesn't work like it should, things happen to us that discourage us.

And we actually would be not just inauthentic, but kind of insane if we weren't discouraged by some of the things that happen in this world because they are objectively bad. But then we're also discouraged because of things going on in our own minds and hearts, as a result of our fallen constitutions.

And then in addition to that, I mean, we encounter spiritual discouragement because of perhaps sin in our own lives that we're battling. We grow weary battling against the flesh, or perhaps it's because of the sin of other people around us and how that's affecting us.

So there are any number of reasons why we would be discouraged in this life. And I think my initial word to the listener out there is that if you are discouraged, I agree with Jimmy, it does not necessarily mean that you are in sin.

And we'll parse that out a little bit more as we go here. But I would just say to you, it is normal to be discouraged oftentimes in this fallen world. And don't beat yourself to death over the fact that you continue to bump up against things that discourage you.

We were joking before we hit record about the kind of Christian radio version of Christianity that so many people are exposed to. Or in some church contexts and theological streams, you get this very triumphant onward and upward kind of stuff where we assume that if we are legitimately in Christ and we're doing as we should be, then we will not be discouraged regularly, but instead will be overcoming weakness, overcoming sin, and all of those kinds of things.

And we will be encouraged so much in the Lord Jesus Christ that all of those other discouragements just fade away. So, dear weary saint out there listening who is discouraged, take heart. You're not alone.

You're not crazy. And there is hope in Christ, but we need to talk about that the way the Scriptures do. We're going to hopefully do some of that on this episode as well. Jimmy Buehler Right.

And I think it's important to note that I think in our, let's just call it our American evangelical approach to the Christian life, that a lot of times, maybe the unwritten goal is a positive disposition on life.

Like that is that we are more than our problems or we are more than our sufferings in life, and that the chief end of us going to church or hearing a sermon or partaking in Christian material, the chief end often becomes, I need to be a more positive person.

Totally. I mean, and some of that is just overtly ridiculous. You know, like you're a conqueror and just overcoming. Yeah, right. But then some of it is effectively, man, just the power of positive thinking in Jesus name.

Jon Moffitt. Exactly. And that's really what most people get peddled to them in many churches across this land on any given Sunday. Jon Moffitt. Yeah.

We've baptized positive psychology. Jimmy Buehler. Totally. Jon Moffitt. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know if Dave Ramsey is the one who made this popular or not, but you'll hear the phrase, you know, how are you doing today? Better than I deserve. Which I understand the sentiment, but what happens, you know, I've said this for years, there's more lies told on Sunday morning than any other day of the week, because what happens when you show up and you see people like, hey, brother, how are you doing today?

I'm doing great. Lie. You probably got out of that car thinking, I don't want to be here, or I'm so beat down. I'm so exhausted. I'm so discouraged. I can't tell you how many times I've showed up to church just absolutely discouraged.

And I told people, you know, they're like, how are you doing? I'm like, I'm discouraged. Jon Moffitt. Yeah. Jimmy Buehler. Why? Like, then they're shocked, like, why? You're about to preach about Jesus because sin is real and people suffer and people hurt.

And there's a somberness to Christianity. You read the Psalms and you don't walk away feeling every at the end of every Psalm that we are triumphing, walking our way to Zion. It's just this, there's a somberness.

And even there's, you know, you can hear in multiple times in the Psalms where there is a just flat out discouragement and there is a complaint being hurled towards God. God, this is hard. I don't like this.

Often, where are you? Like, this is like, where did you go? I need this. And I think for me, the moment I started to make the shift from my congregation where it's okay to get together and groan. It's okay to get together and not complain.

And what Jimmy was saying, lament, saying, man, I am not well. I'm going to confess that my heart is heavy instead of faking it and showing up and being like, yeah, man, things are great. You know, life's, I mean, it could be worse.

I could have cancer. And the guy next to you has cancer. It's like, well, great. Now he feels like an idiot.

And I think honestly, there is a fundamental incorrect belief that if I am a Christian, I make Jesus look bad if I'm discouraged in life. Because all of a sudden, we feel that we are communicating that Jesus isn't enough.

When in fact, I think what makes Jesus and what makes Christ and what makes the gospel look incredible is that when we are in the midst of discouragement, we trust Christ, right? I mean, there is a reason why a large portion of the Psalms are Psalms of lament because it is a realistic posture of the life.

Now, don't hear us advocate that we're telling people to be negative. That's not at all what we're advocating, right? We don't want you to be the guy at the party that's like, well, how are you today?

Well, the world is a rain cloud. That's not at all. But man, some of the best people that I like to surround myself with are the people who say, life is really hard, but I trust that our God is good. And I trust that Christ is sufficient for these things.

When we say that Christ is sufficient, which we say all the time, we are not talking about anything that is sentimental in terms of warm and fuzzy feelings. And we're also not talking about something that is necessarily circumstantial, that you are going to think and feel good things about how your life is going because of Christ all the time.

But what we mean is that in the midst of emotional and mental struggle, and in the midst of maybe very trying and maybe flat out horrible circumstances, we can lift our eyes from that horizon and look to Christ and say, He is sufficient to not only atone for my sin, but to provide me with righteousness to secure my resurrection one day.

He's told me that He's going to raise me up on the last day, and I trust Him for that. And He's seated at the right hand of God and intercedes for me even now and advocates for my cause when I sin. And that's what we mean when Christ, by saying Christ is enough.

And you may not feel, that may not move the needle for you emotionally in the moment. It most often will not change anything circumstantially in your life. But you know, in the midst of all that suffering and pain, that Christ is enough for your salvation and that God has promised you a life after this one that will be different than this one is.

He's written eternity into your heart, and He's promised to deliver it to you through Christ. That's right.

I think sometimes, too, we live in those moments of encouragement where we have that spike and we can feel the hope, or there is this amazing conversation that happened, or you see someone repent, or you learn something new about Christ.

I got put into a conversation recently in a big thread, and the person was talking about reading Isaiah 53 and just how they became overwhelmed with just the glory of God. And, you know, the question was, has this ever happened to you?

And I love someone's comment, yes, but not in a while. It was a sobering reality.

Or yes, but not as often as it should.

That's right. I mean, how do I live in that perpetual state of what I would call a spiritual high or that, you know, you could call it Christian caffeine? How do I just stay right there? And we look to do things that maintain that sense of uplifting, upbeating, positive, and we are given.

I mean, Christianity has been marketing Christian caffeine for years. Do this and you will have the spiritual energy to beat lethargy and to beat all of this other discouragement, to beat temptation. And then we try those things and it doesn't work.

And I do think the Bible gives us some tremendous ways in which we battle discouragement, which we'll get to in a little bit in the podcast. And it's definitely not what we've been handed in the past.

We'll get to it. But the one thing I want to say is there's a reason why Paul says, be encouraged and then points you to Christ, because he understands the amount of time that you're going to face discouragement and that it's almost like sleeping.

Your body and spiritually gets tired at the end of the day. And there's this moment where there's like, you're going to have to just, you're going to take a break. And we live in this broken world. At the end of it, this is where I think the reform perspective of life is way more realistic than anything else I've seen, because it says you live in a world that's fallen.

Not only are you fallen, Holy Spirit lives within you. You are a chosen child of God. And yet you're still a sinner, which means you're going to deal with the discouragement of this world and you're going to deal with the discouragement of your own life.

And that leads you to say, as Jesus says, put not your treasures here, but put them where your final destination is, which is with him in the new heavens and the new earth. So we take nothing with us.

And that's that reality of don't try and have your best life now, because it's going to only slam you down on your back even harder.

Well, and right now, really quick, Jimmy, right now we live and walk by faith, not by sight. And I don't care what anybody says, that is not easy to do. And I'm just baffled sometimes. Can I just jump in?

I mean, Jesus literally said, blessed are they who do this, right? John 20.

Well, and I just am baffled by people that will push back against us and others who advocate this kind of theology and say, it can't be as simple or as easy as what you guys are saying. It can't be, well, we just need to trust Christ.

And I'm like, do you hear yourself talk? Yeah. Like to do that, not only is it impossible in man's power, it's a gift of God. Amen. The Bible is clear about that. But even in our experience, everything that we feel and everything that we see, everything we go through preaches a different message.

Faith is not easy.

Trusting Christ Instead of a Positive Disposition

Yeah, that's right. Okay. So I said this to our church last Sunday and I said, look, I want to be overly and abundantly clear right now that in the Christian life, there is not some secret code that you need to unlock.

There is not some hidden lifestyle that you need to follow. There is not some set of rules that you need to read between the lines in the scriptures to find. That God has spoken to us loudly and clearly through the person and work of his son, Jesus Christ.

That he has revealed in Jesus all that we need. He has revealed that Jesus is sufficient for these things. And so, no, there's not a secret code to unlock. No, there's not some hidden lifestyle you need to live out.

No, there's not these hidden rules that you need to discern. There is a gentle and lowly Savior that we trust in. And as we've said constantly, the fundamental battle of the Christian life is not being positive.

It is trusting in a good shepherd King Jesus. That's right. It's to believe.

And Lord, help my unbelief. Yeah, I mean, Justin, I'll distill your thunder. You're the one that made the observation about Paul. He's like, yeah, it's better for me if I die. Yeah, right.

Well, yeah, I mean, so I just like personally, anecdotally, maybe the longer I live, the longer I'm in ministry, the more I totally understand what Paul was saying. That, hey, guys, for me personally, it would be better if I died because if I die, I'm present with the Lord.

But it's better for you that I stay because clearly the Lord has plans for me in terms of how I can be useful and effective for your sake. And I think the older we all get and the more we suffer in this life and we just experience and taste and see what brokenness in the world does to us and everybody we love.

I think we begin to feel that same way, too, that means continue to live in this life. Really, there may be some things that I enjoy. Yeah. But really, I think the beneficiaries are other people that the Lord may use me to bless them.

And that's not to sound like conceited or arrogant. I think that's a biblical and reasonable perspective. If you're new to Theocast, we have a free e-book available for you called Faith vs. Faithfulness, A Primer on Rest.

And if you struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a Reformed confessional perspective.

You can get your free copy at theocast .org slash primer.

I think Paul's, through the power of the Spirit, Paul, Peter, and John, and James all focus the attention of the purpose and meaning of life is others here. Yeah, outwardly focused. When Paul says, be eager to maintain the bond of peace within the local church, consider how to build one another up in love and good works.

I mean, you just see that the purpose that life that Paul lives and he gives to the New Testament church, along with all the other New Testament writers, is as crazy as this sounds, it's a sense of survival.

Because what we've been handed is, do these things to survive your relationship with God or prove that it's alive or prove that it's real. And Paul says it's safe and secure in the hands of God in heaven, not in your hands.

Now, go encourage each other.

We also live in a world that tells us that the greatest thing we can pursue is our own pleasure and enjoyment. That's right. Whereas the Scripture clearly presents something else, that the greatest joy is found in this life when we love other people and help them.

That's right. Jesus literally says, my joy will be in you and your joy will be complete when you love one another. John 15. So guys, we're here and I know I want to make this transition before we run out of time.

I don't want to throw these candles on the cake at the last second. So we have people who are battling discouragement and we've acknowledged that. Let's talk about things that we do personally and then obviously the conclusion we're going to make is the ultimate hope and joy is always outside of ourselves, which is found in Christ and his community.

And what God has promised us through him. But I'll let someone else jump on this if they're ready. But guys, what happens as an individual and as a pastor when you find yourselves in the absolute throes of the dark holes of reality?

What does that look like for you? I mean, this is a little bit of a bear the soul moment and I'm sure we're willing to do so.

Personal Lament, Weakness, and the Need for the Church

Yeah. Okay, so I'll speak on behalf of myself that often for me, when I find myself being the most discouraged when I'm isolated, that I'm bearing either the responsibility of our church or the responsibility of being a dad or being a husband on myself, that I'm not open and honest with the men in my life or even the men on this podcast and saying, hey, I'm discouraged.

I need help processing. My wife has noticed this about me where she has said, when our life gets tough, I tend to retreat and bear the responsibility on myself. So what I begin to do is I live in my own world and I start having these conversations with my subconscious.

What that ultimately does is it leads me into this trail of despair, kind of the woe-is-me posture of life. What I've had to learn to do in those moments is find that battling discouragement cannot be a solo project in the same way that battling sin cannot be a solo project, that I need the Lord's means that he has provided, which is his gospel preached and his church around me to lean into.

I see it in the faces of my people that when we go into a time of confessing our sin, when I as a pastor stand up and say, I need the Lord's forgiveness for this and this and this this week, it encourages people in their faith to say, okay, I'm not alone.

I'm not the only one discouraged. I'm not the only one battling. I think it's important for us to remember that it doesn't matter if we're introverted or extroverted. We can't live life in isolation. We need the body of Christ around us.

I think for me, as far as my battle against discouragement, it's pretty consistent, meaning I'm always battling it. I've been pretty honest on this podcast in the past about my fight against anxiety my whole life and just pessimism.

I am an extroverted person. I've got a pretty big personality. I love to hang with people. I like to be spontaneous and have fun in the moment, but I live my entire life haunted by thoughts of how terribly things could go.

So it really does, it points, I think, just where the metaphorical pads just off to where it's just metal on metal and it grinds and it's tough and you feel like you've been ground down to powder. That is only compounded by the real hard things that I do encounter in ministry because our church is just like every other church.

It's comprised of sinners. I'm a sinner. The other elders are sinners. The congregation, we're all sinners. There's always hard stuff going on in people's lives that's heartbreaking. There's always ways in which you're misunderstood, even as a pastor, and that's hard.

There's lots of things. There's just difficulty in family life. As you navigate the grind and the demands of life with children and schedule, it's very easy to find yourself, like Jimmy, you said it, just kind of in this loop of discouragement where you're having to remind yourself of the good things that do exist in this world.

I know that's my experience anyway. And what helps me, I agree with Jimmy wholeheartedly, my brothers and sisters around me, I mean, my wife is a tremendous encouragement to me. The other elders of our church are a great encouragement to me because they listen and they don't look at me like I'm crazy.

They're like, brother, you're not alone. I mean, we feel these things too. Then I'm encouraged, frankly, by the testimony of the apostles and the people of God through history. When I read Paul in 2 Corinthians chapter 1, he says, we don't want you to be ignorant, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia, for we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself.

I'm like, I get this, dude. Then he goes on to say, indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death, but that was to make us rely not on ourselves, but on God who raises the dead. I'm like, yeah, Paul, I mean, you're reading my mail, dude.

I'm with you, and the only person, the only thing I know to hope in is God and his faithfulness, and most pointedly, to hope in Jesus Christ and what he's done for me. Sometimes it makes me feel better, sometimes not.

Sometimes I feel nothing. Sometimes I'm greatly moved as I think about what Christ has done for me. If I think about the saints through history who have fought these same battles, there's a comfort in not feeling like you're by yourself in it.

I agree.

For me, one of the things recently, as we've been going through the book of John, I was faced with the reality that it's a theology I've always believed, but I've never seen it so blatantly in the text about how weak the followers of Christ are, how frail they are, especially when you look at the disciples.

Not only before the cross, but after the cross, there's just a frailty of humanity. Often when I find myself in really, really dark moments of just discouragement, two things happen. I am reminded that I am but weak.

I'm a very, very weak man, and I should not trust myself, nor should I trust the thoughts that I have during discouragement. Sometimes my wife will ask me, I'm one of these guys, I try and get better at this, but I hold my emotions on my sleeve, and if you know I'm not well, you can see it.

My wife will walk up and ask me what's wrong, and I'll express to her the discouragement. Normally in the past, I would become doubly discouraged because I would think, how can I be so discouraged considering all that I have, all that's going on, all that I've been blessed with.

When you look at people's lives through what I call the lens of perfect snapshots, you can assume that people just don't struggle. They don't have problems. Social media is a brilliant way to communicate, and we use it often with Theocast to communicate the glory of Christ, encouragement, and as Jimmy loves to use, for pure humor.

But it also can be a lie from the pits of Satan that you look at someone's life and you're like, wow, they always are happy. They always have great tweets. They always have good things to say, and that's just not the case.

So what I have learned that every time I find myself discouraged, I use it as a reminder to go, I am such a weak man. I'm such a weak father.

I'm such a weak person. God have mercy on me and give me grace. Exactly.

This might be a little too much, but sometimes I literally get up in the mornings before I take a shower, I just sit on the toilet with the lid closed and I have my hands on my head going, Lord, if you don't get me through the day, I don't get through the day.

If you don't give me mercy and grace before I get in the shower, I might fall. And I think that's the sentiment because you don't have to be a pastor to struggle with people's pain, people's suffering.

If you're a Christian living life in a church and you're emotionally aware, you're dealing with this stuff.

Right. You don't even have to be a Christian to battle discouragement. I mean, it's part of life. I know I've mentioned this before and I won't read this song, but there's a particular artist that I enjoy listening to.

His name is Dylan Chase and he has this song called Black Holes. And I was in the midst of some really dark, dark moments of counseling in my church and just people's suffering just beat me down. I mean, I was just discouraged because how do you go tell a man who's lost a child?

There is no solution to that. Or when you're dealing with infertility or infidelity, I mean, you don't restore those things. Those are unrestorable here on this earth. And the only thing you do is you acknowledge the suffering.