Cultish: Answering Claims Of Hebrew Roots, Part 1

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Cultish: Answering Claims Of Hebrew Roots, Part 2

00:00

Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is

00:05

Jeremiah Roberts I am one of the co -hosts here. I Am back here in the studio a couple got a couple guests with me that will introduce in just a second

00:13

But I as always I'm joined with Andrew the super sleuth of the show you will read you are coming in live from your super secret

00:21

Headquarters in Harriman, Utah one of the apartment complexes up there very close to a Costco that's about to be built

00:28

But it's still super secret. How are you doing, man? I'm doing well dang Jerry Yeah, you just you just nailed it down there people are gonna know even more where I live now because of that Costco That's getting built.

00:39

So inch by inch we will slowly revive inch the key a number of my apartment complex

00:44

Eventually, it's going to be like I'm gonna give the exact pin drop like they can scare it

00:49

They could scan a QR code will give them the exact pin drop so they can just drop by your house and say hi Wow, all right. Well, but for now for now

00:55

We're gonna we're gonna keep it as super secret as we can. But anyways, I'm super excited for this episode

01:00

We a couple months back. We did an initial series kind of an introductory overview of the

01:06

Hebrew roots movement So our original guest we have another Andrew with us in studio, but Andrew Schumacher.

01:14

How are you doing? I'm doing really well. Yeah, I'd be here awesome. And we are here with your lovely wife and Hi, my name is

01:23

Nikki, we've been married 14 years Yes, we're related in a way. Yes, of course, and you've got and you've got how many children do you have?

01:31

We have three Yes, they are awesome kids. In fact, one of them just came up to me you Were talking before super sweet super outgoing just you know, it was just like hi.

01:41

I'm how are you doing? It's evangelism very easy. Yes, just take her with you Yes, I'm yeah, so it's awesome.

01:49

I'm so glad you guys are both back in studio So if you have this is your first time listening in if you're curious about the

01:55

Hebrew roots movements The first series that we do is really just a general overview and as we discussed before it's incredibly broad

02:03

So I think even in the two series that the two episodes that we did there's no way you can encompass everything because it's just it's something that is so encompassing like very broad and encompassing and And there's a lot of different aspects to it.

02:17

But today we're going to be kind of going over Really some of the aspects of their theology and also, how do you what are you most likely to bring up in a conversation?

02:28

And then how do you respond to that before we jump into that? We do have a couple sponsors of the show We want to make sure we make you wary of if you want to support these sponsors, which also help support

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03:49

Alright, so real quickly. Can you just maybe from your perspective is the first time of you joining in you?

03:56

I was joking. I was talking beforehand in the podcast that went before the podcast started You're sort of the unexpected executive producer of his ministry to Hebrew roots and that tell us like how this came about just in conversations with like homeschool co -ops and just some of the things that you were involved in like just tell me how

04:14

Your awareness of people involved in this sort of stuff came about It's everywhere.

04:20

And so yeah, but really where I started became become aware was through my youtube channel

04:25

Just the other channels that YouTube would recommend I would start watching and seeing women getting sucked in and then

04:32

I joined some of the Facebook groups and met other women who were fighting valiantly to Spare people from these false teachings and just really didn't see any men leadership

04:46

Fighting alongside these women by themselves. And so I roped my Wonderful husband who is gifted in theology and apologetics, right to help us

04:55

What would be some examples of things that you would see right off the get -go Just things like what that's kind of weird.

05:02

What's going on with that would be would there be a conversation about? We need to observe certain feasts or was there a discussion about?

05:10

You know only calling God by particular names or taking out vowels. I kind of feel like when you see somebody

05:17

Online whether it's a YouTube channel or even sometimes their Facebook name or it's almost their

05:22

Facebook profile And almost immediately gives away There's some aspect of Hebrew roots in some sense

05:27

Like what were some things that would just off the get -go would catch your attention like oh, that's kind of off What's that? What's that about to a biblically literate person?

05:35

There are so many red flags. It's like a pile of dung spaghetti I don't know if I can say that It's hard to even know where to start right because the biblical illiteracy and the historical illiteracy is such a huge problem

05:49

If you've done, you know, you guys maybe a lot of your ladies at your church do the Bible reading challenge

05:54

I've done that for like I don't know 30 years or something So I really had to go to Drew to help me sort through where to even start but yeah, just the aesthetics would draw people in and I think that's a reaction to Some things that people should be getting away from in our immodest culture people seeing

06:18

Feminism take over Low -cut cleavage II everything and then they see this beautiful modest lady with candles and a prairie dress and that that can really woo a lot of women who are affected by Aesthetics and beauty so that will draw them in and then you know

06:37

A lot of these women have been a part of the verse a day club their whole lives of Christianity They've never really read the

06:42

Bible in context They have graduated from Bible College even some of my fellow Bible College graduates do not know how to cite a source or verify a

06:51

Historical source for what they're being told and they get sucked in. Mm -hmm and would you see things as well to just because it seems to me if I'm thinking through the lens of Where women talk and interact online you think about I'm trying to think like the

07:06

Pinterest boards and oh, yeah anything in like in that regard where there's some things that would show up to as far as like fashion dress

07:14

But even like recipe suggestions because a big aspect of it is about what you can adhere to like what exactly?

07:23

Is is kosher that is it is congruent with the Torah. Would you kind of see that a little bit they?

07:29

There have been leaked videos from some of the more prominent Hebrew roots female teachers

07:34

They sneak it in on purpose They start with just the aesthetics and the candles in the homestead and when you get into their private

07:42

Facebook group They start slipping in the legalism more and more. They don't show all that right up front on their

07:48

YouTube channel Mm -hmm, they slip it in. I mean I have so many screenshots of women

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Really being abused in some of these Facebook groups being told, you know, how they're not good enough because they found

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They accidentally found some gluten in the back of their freezer during the

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Passover So Wow So would you would you say it's kind of like that frog and boiling water?

08:15

technique kind of use that we see that a lot of colds do especially like Scientology at first these these women can get appealed to The aesthetics and then all of a sudden they're joining this

08:22

Facebook group and then slowly they're starting to see You know The temperature is being turned up and all of a sudden it's too hot and they're just kind of hard for them to sort through The madness essentially.

08:31

Yes, and there now there are some wonderful biblically literate women online that are seeing it and trying to help and You know trying to pull these women out

08:43

But a lot of it stems from women who? Marcia of Samaritan Mountain she pointed this out to me and I've noticed that she's right over the few years.

08:51

We've been involved It's women whose husbands are not necessarily Now this isn't always the case a lot of times

08:58

It's the husband is not leading the family spiritually and the wife wants that and she's trying to figure out how to live a rich Spiritual life and she's figuring it out on her own and either the husband will come along Enjoying her in that or there will be strife and they will get divorced this

09:14

This false religion does lead to a lot of divorce It's it's creepy now,

09:21

I do have to disclaim a lot of these people are our brothers and sisters in Christ, they're not all

09:28

Crazy but the end of their logic leads this direction Mmm, so do you so you would just say just as a whole that it's kind of like a mixed bag of either people

09:40

Like a mixed bag of like wolves and sheep Where the sheep are people that are under you know

09:46

They're trying to pursue God to the best of their ability but in the process of having a misunderstanding of what the law is they're

09:53

Unintentionally putting themselves under a burden and under a under a lot of unnecessary

09:58

Yoke bingo the sheep don't know the shepherds voice because they've never read their the word in context

10:04

Mm -hmm. So yeah, right would be a fair right and then they then also what the

10:09

Apostle Paul warned about about those who are trying To spy out and kind of seek the freedom that we have in Christ to put us back under bondage in a sense

10:17

So Andrew, why don't you do this where we're gonna jump in and maybe we can also kind of you know When we actually bring up these verses give examples

10:25

You could both give examples of how they come up in conversation But then explain the context as well for any so for anyone who hasn't actually listened to the previous two episodes

10:33

What would be your give us like a LinkedIn profile bio of like the

10:39

Hebrew roots? Movements and what that looks like for anyone who's on the outside looking in say this is their first time

10:45

Really understanding about this Probably the best way to I guess summarize everything is it all kind of starts with or it's it's all based on Keeping the law of Moses and keeping specifically those parts of it that are

11:04

You know for lack of a better term ceremonial in nature, you know, the the dietary laws the feast days the

11:12

The the Sabbath seventh -day Sabbath that kind of stuff and there's a lot of folks who are

11:19

Christians who have You know come to believe that that we're supposed to do those things now that that alone doesn't make someone in the

11:27

Hebrew roots movement necessarily because what comes out of that, you know, some people that's all it is and And I wouldn't even necessarily call someone for that's all it is

11:38

Otherwise there, you know Christians and Orthodox in every other way I wouldn't necessarily say that's a person the

11:44

Hebrew roots movement, but that's sort of the foundation of the Hebrew roots movement what often stems from that are just all kinds of theories about How You know about about the

12:00

Bible and and every sort of sort of things so they have theories about you know that that all Gentiles are actually members of the

12:07

You know ten lost tribes of Israel. They have theories about you know

12:13

That Jesus wasn't really crucified on on the Friday before You know the the

12:19

Sun, you know what we celebrate Resurrection Sunday and Easter and all that they they would you know

12:25

Come up with different timelines for that You know lots of different Things kind of come up from it

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Pronunciation names like like you mentioned before there's about six or seven names that depending on who you talk to They say that's the one and only correct pronunciation.

12:43

If you don't say that you're right. You're calling upon a false. God and so they obviously there's a lot of intramural sort of Up a creek without a paddle because she can't even pronounce

13:00

Yeah, if you have a speech impediment, so yeah, I'd like to hear Trinity say Yeah Gotcha gotcha

13:09

And so it was also real quick is there it also an emphasis we're gonna get into aspects of the fees some proof texts

13:14

These approve that is there also in the process of observing certain feasts Is there also an emphasis about avoiding like secular holidays because they're inherently pagan like we just had

13:25

You know, we just celebrate Easter aka Resurrection Day the people who'd use us the East Easter ishtar argument this typical

13:33

Pseudo -etymology and pseudo history. Is that something that that is kind of appealing to?

13:38

Yeah. Yeah as a whole. I mean and again, it's Anything we say we're speaking in some generalizations you could find somebody within the movement that disagrees, but yeah, it's a really common thing that the

13:52

Easter ishtar thing cracks me up because Easter is like an English word

13:58

Derived from an old older English word that just means fourth month It's it's that's where we get it in virtually every other language of the world

14:08

When Christians celebrate the resurrection at the same time that same Sunday They call it's whatever their languages variation of Passover.

14:17

It's all derived from Passover. So in English That holiday sounds you know

14:24

Superficially like ishtar, but but in every other language it doesn't and yeah, and so like the argument

14:30

Oh this comes from the worship of this pagan goddess Well, no, it doesn't because then you you actually think that you know, only

14:37

English speakers are guilty of this right now syncretism, but Easter eggs are all because we're worshiping the fertility goddess and yeah

14:46

Couldn't be that rabbits come out in the spring and that's what we eat in the spring Yeah, couldn't be that Yeah, well, yeah,

14:54

I mean it's it's even like what they end up doing in like the film Zeitgeist It's almost that very much that pseudo history where they're trying to say.

15:00

Oh this Jesus was derived from the pagan gods I think they're trying to I think it was either Horace or one of the other gods where they say

15:05

Oh, this this guy was actually born on December 25th, and so therefore there's a correlation

15:11

Well this the most ridiculous thing is you just do a little bit a tiny bit of research Yeah, and you realize that the idea of just choosing the 25th of December that occurred around the around the third century of Christians Articulating that day to celebrate

15:25

Christ's birth. So the idea that somehow the Christians in the first century have this idea of doing Utilizing the 25th of September.

15:32

It's just completely it's so nonsensical once you actually take a look at it But um, but yeah, so there definitely is appeal to pseudo history

15:40

So let's just kind of jump into it So there's a couple quite a few different proof texts or just sort of places where passages come up Maybe you can kind of both give your ideas and thoughts.

15:50

So the first two categories is Matthew chapter 5 verses 17 and 18 and maybe

15:56

Categorically, maybe you can you could bring examples to of like how this has come up in conversation with you know different women's groups and things like that, so Matthew 17

16:06

I'm sorry, Matthew 5 verse 17 says do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets but I have come

16:14

But I have come to fulfill them and then also verse 18 says for truly

16:20

I say unto you until heaven and earth pass away not an iota Not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

16:28

So What are some examples? How would you see this utilized and maybe you can also give some examples to?

16:36

You can either one of you can go yeah, I mean it's it's sort of the starting point of Almost any conversation if if what you're talking about is the law if you're talking about specifically if you know holidays that's gonna

16:51

You know start at a different place, but if you mind the whole book of Galatians, yeah yeah, so if you if you

16:59

Start a conversation. Oh, so you think that we should you know, keep the feast days or eat dietary

17:04

You know like like in in the Torah, they'll say well, yeah, I mean Jesus said that look at Matthew 5 17 now the there's a couple ways of You know, if you just if you if you look at the text carefully and this is what

17:21

I think that that they don't do They don't realize that The Sermon on the

17:26

Mount is is essentially Jesus Doing this he's doing the

17:31

Sinai thing with the New Covenant. It's it's the New Covenant mountain law, he's giving he's giving law and So when he's talking about the law, he's starting at the beginning

17:45

But when he says that you'll notice verse 17 doesn't say do not think I came to abolish the commandments

17:51

He says do not think I came to abolish the law or the prophets now law and prophets is a

17:59

Common New Testament era way of speaking about the scriptures the

18:04

Old Testament scriptures as a whole So Jesus here isn't and and you can look at there's a lot of texts

18:11

Jesus when he says I think it's in John 10, you know, it is written in your law

18:17

I said you are gods, right? Mm -hmm, but you'll die like men. Well, what is he quoting?

18:23

He's so many to Psalm is he quoting the Torah is he quoting the law? No, he's quoting from but he says you're it's written in your law, right?

18:32

Because because law in in Jesus Day could be depending on the context a shorthand for just Referring to the scriptures.

18:44

It's the vernacular. It's not that he's referring to commandments at this point he's referring to law and the prophets the the scriptures and he says

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I came not to abolish and That word in in the in the Greek, you know, it means to destroy or to come against overthrow

19:00

I didn't come to overthrow the scriptures. I came to fulfill them and fulfill again that word.

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This is Prior it's found 16 times in Matthew It's been used many times before this verse and it's in regards to him fulfilling prophecy

19:16

And again, what did he come to do? He came to fulfill the scriptures. So he's not I Don't think he's even gotten to Talking about commandments yet in in Matthew 5 17.

19:28

Mm -hmm, and Did you have a thought on that? Yeah, so Andrew I see I see that the with the gears going on your head

19:35

So I'll let you jump in just a second But just my thought I'm just curious about when I because I've ever

19:41

I don't think I've had it super in -depth I mean, I maybe had one or two conversations With someone online via Facebook messenger

19:49

Along quite a while back But I'm just curious as to what the mindset is of someone who adheres to Hebrews like how they view that passage.

19:58

I mean, I would assume that somehow they're interpreting this that The law is important that Christ came not to abolish the law and but to fulfill it and that one not jot or tittle

20:10

Will go away until all is fulfilled Probably there's probably some aspect of well

20:18

Anybody the majority of Christendom has Sort of abolished the law in our movement is sort of a fill fulfillment of it or we're rediscovering the fulfillment of law

20:29

So it's almost sort of this rediscovery of knowledge for the most part that has been lost within Christendom So maybe they're visualizing themselves as that one

20:38

King in the Old Testament who rediscovers the law and they read it to him and he Right, but I don't know am

20:45

I on to something here and then Andrew I'll let you jump with whatever questions you have I Think so.

20:50

I mean, they're like a revelation. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of it is my friends that grew up charismatic

20:58

So they feel like they're they've had something new revealed. We found the hidden book. Yeah Yeah, it's a very it is very that connection is pretty common to that people

21:08

Go going into this movement often come from charismatic background not a hundred percent, of course, but it is pretty common and You know, there's there's more than one way to see the passage.

21:20

I think that What what you often hear from? Those in the in Hebrew's movement, not only will they bring it up, but they'll say, you know

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If you think fulfilled just means to abolish then then you're you're wrong

21:34

And so if you think that fulfill in any way means to bring something to an end Then it can't be, you know, then you're contradicting

21:42

Jesus and again, I Personally don't think that he's talking about Commandments, but even if he were

21:49

He there there are other passages in Luke For example, there's one but there are other passages that talk about fulfill in terms of ending something

21:58

But ending something because it's brought to completion is different from something being destroyed or overthrown

22:05

These two words, you know, they don't there's not only one way to interpret their relationship gotcha

22:11

Gotcha, what Andrew what questions you have man? Yeah. Yeah, just just for clarification drew So what what are their presuppositions that they take into this text then?

22:20

What are they trying to read into the text and how how is that not necessarily correct?

22:25

Is there like a conspiratorial mindset when reading the text trying to put some type of? Meaning into the text that's not necessarily there that they have the secret information to or anything like that.

22:35

I don't question It's a good question. I mean, I can't you know, we can't read everyone's minds, but right.

22:41

Yeah, I think that that it's really It comes down to when you and and sometimes this is one of the the foundational texts, but When you have adopted a certain worldview or a certain set of presuppositions you

22:58

You kind of come to Any text and you you you interpret it in light of those and so when

23:06

Jesus says, you know Do you not think I came to abolish the law? I mean there are plenty of Christians who who think

23:12

You know who aren't in any sense properly called Hebrew roots Who think that who think roughly the same thing, you know that Oh Jesus is not coming to do away with the commandments of Moses But to fulfill them and what is but then they move on and say well

23:32

What does that mean exactly and let's learn from the text what Jesus means by fulfill?

23:37

rather than You know just drawing a conclusion at at at verse 17 and then carrying that conclusion everywhere else you go

23:47

Without you know without letting the other texts inform, you know What that what that is, right?

23:53

And so for example just and again, this is just a matter of Understanding the mind because I'm trying to think again through the lens of how are they?

24:02

Viewing a particular passage given given their pre commitments. So in Matthew 5 18, for example,

24:09

I'll read it again where it says Here For truly

24:15

I say to you until heaven and earth pass away What not an iota not a dot will pass away from when they'll pass from the law until all is accomplished

24:25

So in a sense there they're trying to say not one aspect of the like at the applicability

24:32

Will pass away So the way that they interpret the law in regards to you know observance of feast what you can at what is or is not kosher or how you dress or if you have what are those like The sashes that they wear little bristles were those things eat the tassels.

24:48

Yeah, so if there's an aspect well, that's Like maybe they view that through how you view that today and you probably you're

24:55

Are you going back to your mind's eye from like when you saw one like wearing those or no? I it's just funny because they can't they try so hard and when you get but in the

25:04

Facebook groups you see them struggling because you cannot do the law like you can't because Yeah, they

25:13

I I have lost count of how many screenshots I've taken of women who were

25:19

Instructed to lie to their husband and say they were still on their period when they're not so that they wouldn't have to become unclean

25:30

Yeah, and so they're like so lying is okay like you have to lie to stay clean ceremonially clean

25:38

What is the whole Council of God here? That you just cannot do it. Mm -hmm

25:43

Yeah so another so another proof text real quickly is Matthew 7 22 23 and just kind of skimming through a couple of these and again

25:55

We're just going over a couple examples of proof texts and there's just tell everyone real quickly What's the YouTube channel where you go over a lot of this stuff to in case we can't cover everything

26:03

Yeah, so my channel is called beginning of wisdom. If you just search that in YouTube, it'll it'll come right up and Yeah, I've got a lot of a lot of stuff

26:15

Yeah, right. So Matthew 7 22 as part of the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus says on that day

26:22

Many will will say to me Lord Lord. Did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and Do many mighty works in your name and then

26:32

I will declare to them I never knew you depart from you you workers of lawlessness so I'm just going to assume off of the get -go and you can tell me if I'm wrong my

26:44

My gut instinct would say that someone in the Hebrew roots that what would appeal to them is

26:51

Lawlessness ie those who don't follow the Torah like Jesus is going to be just essentially.

26:57

Yeah, if you don't follow You know the different aspects of cleanliness or you know kosher like all that entails that You might up end up in this category of lawlessness if you don't follow these things am

27:10

I on to something here? Oh, yeah They won't come out and say that until you get farther into the scheme.

27:16

Yeah. Yeah, and this is this is related to Another text which will we may talk about?

27:23

we'll definitely want to talk about which is 1st John 3 4 which says sin is lawlessness and the the text and again, it's there's a lot of Things added by assumption

27:37

It's it's a real again, it's it's a real common tactic when when you're arguing for something that you just kind of point at it and try to let people

27:47

You know, you've you've you've laid some groundwork and try to let people draw certain conclusions

27:52

But they're not really drawing it from the text, you know, the the text Jesus says, you know

27:57

Never I never knew you department from me you you who practice lawlessness. Well, what is lawlessness?

28:04

laws, you know iniquity with being without you know, the the It's like ah namas or anomia.

28:11

I don't know the the conjugation in the Greek, but it's no law. No law now

28:17

Are there Christians are there people who profess to be Christians who are? truly

28:23

Anti law in in every regard, you know, right setting aside this ceremonial stuff like who's who think?

28:31

Oh, yeah, you can go murder somebody and be totally unrepentant and you can you know

28:36

Do every nature of sin as long as at some point you got your ticket punched. You're good

28:41

Yeah, there are certainly Christians like that But most Christians most you who who most

28:48

Christians would actually regard as fellow believers Do believe in following the law of God, you know, we we even those who don't profess, you know

28:57

They might not even like they might not like that terminology, but they think yeah We're not supposed to murder and commit adultery and you know,

29:05

Jesus was pretty clear about these things in the Sermon on the Mount. So So that's not

29:11

Lawlessness and and the text notice it does not refer to the law of Moses. It doesn't refer to any of these specific sort of ceremonial commands and The interesting thing is that You know this the the logic

29:29

Gets a little bit muddy this this brings up a sort of an issue when when someone gets gets into this sort of movement is

29:38

That it's very common to think that the rest of the church is full of a bunch of people who are condemned

29:44

Because they're not, you know eating kosher, right? And the the way they get there is big is because they they use texts like this

29:52

To say that, you know, we have to keep the law But this text condemns outright condemns the people not keeping the law which means you have to keep the law to be saved right and then then that leads either to works righteousness or to some sort of Inconsistent position where they believe.

30:11

Oh, no. No, it's only by faith in Christ that we're saved but then if you don't, you know, if you don't care about you know,

30:20

Worshipping God on the seventh day of The week then obviously you're not being led by the

30:27

Spirit. So you're obviously not actually saved. Yeah What would be some examples of like what he just said any other examples of how you would see this sort of carried out?

30:36

I mean you mentioned about women interacting with their husbands, you know and viewing even something like their period and how they have you you know

30:44

Their aspect of cleanliness just with what he said are there any other examples that you would see

30:50

With how this gets acted out. I'm sure there's plenty you could probably appeal to I want to just read a

30:58

Screenshot, I will leave the names off. Of course This year I felt overwhelmed.

31:03

This is a screenshot from a private face group Facebook group Uh -huh of a woman trying to keep the

31:09

Passover. Okay this year. I felt overwhelmed We decided to keep Pesach at the house this year

31:14

We used one of my male goats my husband slaughtered But after we killed the goat everything went south blood went everywhere.

31:21

My husband got a headache. He went to bed I ended up cooking it by myself running back and forth between kids and cooking.

31:28

This Passover was the hardest I didn't feel my heart was in the right place I have never been as upset and angry as I have this

31:34

Passover not just that drained emotionally and physically My animal was wasted. I cried my eyes out.

31:40

I even cursed I feel like I should give up like I'm a failure. I let my creator down I couldn't even go through one night of trials and overcome it

31:48

I wanted to have a special Passover with my family ended up being like a big regret and a burden on me and then it goes on and it's

31:57

They're trying and they are placing a burden upon themselves that no one

32:02

No one can can reach and they're taking The enemy is taking something that's supposed to point us toward Christ and they're forgetting to look at Christ instead of the picture they're just getting so focused on what's the picture that's supposed to point to Christ that they're forgetting the point of his resurrection and You know without that hope this year, you know, we lost our child

32:29

I don't know if you know that a few months ago our fourth child actually passed away and Easter Sunday was

32:37

Amazing. The whole point is resurrection Jesus raised from the dead. So glory is just sleeping and that this woman didn't have that because she was trying to keep the law is

32:54

Dangerous it's so dangerous, right? Well, that's amazing too because you think about Andrea sounds like you have some thoughts there

33:00

I'm gonna let you jump in a second here but you know what it talks about in the book of Hebrews about how it's impossible for the

33:06

Bulls of like for the blood of bulls and goats to be able to remove or replenish sins. Mm -hmm And here's someone is through this aspect

33:14

I mean if you want to and if you want to do an Easter dinner where you know, you make Goat meat and sure do all that like god bless you go do that, you know and give it do it

33:24

Yeah, and do it, you know with praise and things giving but all of a sudden is like It sounds like this person is trying to do that through Trying to trying to you know be part of the fulfillment of the law

33:38

But in a sense, well, they think they're they're part of something that's exclusive and special They're actually putting themselves under this immense burden and pressure

33:47

I mean I can only imagine You know how she would feel after falling short of this and then what would you do to try and atone and make amends for?

33:54

It mm -hmm. The whole point is that Jesus did it Andrew. What do you what are your thoughts on that man? Oh, oh, yeah

34:00

I was I was definitely listen to Nikki there, but um, you're just you're just hitting a good point But uh when I when I hear

34:05

Matthew Seven it you know We use this Section of Scripture all the time when we're talking to LDS people or even like a

34:12

Jehovah's Witness Because they claim to know the true Christ, right? It brings me to 2nd Corinthians 11 and Nikki You said it's a dangerous thing

34:18

And I think I think why it's so dangerous is because if you start looking to do the

34:23

Passover Where's your heart at right if your heart is? To look whole holier -than -thou or that it's something that needs to be done

34:31

Then your heart's not truly focused on Christ like you were saying, right? Like it's it's sad in 2nd

34:36

Corinthians 11 for it talks about it says if I actually I'll start in verse 3 It says but I'm afraid that as the serpent deceived

34:42

Eve by his cunning your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ For if someone comes and proclaims another

34:48

Jesus than the one we proclaimed or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received Or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted you put up with it readily

34:56

Enough and then Paul goes on to speak about these ones who were types of like soup superpostles in a sense or but but in Verse 12,

35:03

I'll read from there too. It says and what I'm doing I'll continue to do in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission

35:09

They work on the same terms as we do For such men are false apostles deceitful workmen disguising themselves as apostles of Christ and no wonder for even

35:17

Satan disguises himself as an angel So there's no surprise if he's his servants also disguised themselves as servants of righteousness their ends will correspond to their deeds

35:25

So it's like you can look to do the things of the law But if you are a teacher teaching that you need to do these things for very specific reasons in terms of your own

35:37

Righteousness it says right here. These people certainly look like they're righteous, but their end will correspond to their deeds

35:43

I believe that these are the people that Jesus is speaking about the ones who say The name

35:48

Jesus or Yeshua But really don't accept the sacrifice of Christ as a freedom to live like you were just talking about Nikki like we have the freedom in Christ if we want to do a

35:59

Passover meal we Can but it but what we also have the freedom on is we can enjoy even the failures in it.

36:05

We don't have to It is not our righteousness is not bound up in exactly how we

36:12

Performed this Passover meal in a sense and like you said that is just slavery and it points you to a different Christ if you if you seek to be

36:20

Righteous in that manner. I think you've already lost to Christ is and what he did for you. It's it's really sad It's it's a scary thing.

36:26

It's a it's like a Teeter -tottering, you know what I mean? Like you're trying to walk a tightrope You can fall off real quick and that's not not a good spot to fall.

36:33

Yeah So another thing too is that it's it's interesting too because I think in the same way the next section is you're talking about You know, there's descriptions in the

36:43

Gospels and also in Acts in regards to mentions Times when the laws referred to and I think a lot of cults for example, they get a lot of distorted

36:54

Christology from fundamentally a misunderstanding of what is actually what the the state of the

37:01

Union was in regards to you know Christ nature Given that he was the incarnation

37:07

He had took on flesh if you look at Philippians to Christ being in the very form of God But they take the aspect of his human nature and come to him a lot of times a fundamental misunderstanding of his deity

37:18

So I think maybe in the same way because you know Christ is coming there in the midst of fulfilling the lies until really the end of the

37:25

Gospels when Christ fulfills the law And that actually transfers when that everything transpires.

37:31

And so it's going through a major Transition from the old to the new and you see that so It would make sense and maybe in some sense where maybe people would have a misunderstanding of that Am I kind of onto something here as far as you know

37:45

You mentioning that category or just tell me more about how that relates to the Hebrew roots Just the the mentions of the law in in the

37:53

Gospels and in Acts Yeah, I mean it is and this is something I think we'll we'll have time to get into a lot more

38:01

Later as far as like getting into Acts 15 and talking about the Jerusalem Council talking about You know

38:09

Acts 16 Acts 21 these there are these situations where conflict arises between you know the the

38:18

Christians and the the unbelieving Jews and it's often regarding Aspects of the law but not not always in every case

38:28

But yeah, the it's something that you kind of have to realize and and this again depends on there's a there's a sense in Which your eschatology is gonna affect this?

38:39

Oh for sure because Jesus Did he really and and I believe he did he?

38:47

Initiated and began the new covenant and he began the kingdom, you know

38:53

He inaugurated the kingdom. He sits on the throne as it says in in first Corinthians 15 waiting for his enemies to be made his footstool and That kingdom has begun and now it's it's spreading.

39:07

Well that kingdom began with Christ and then The interesting thing is 40 years later the the prior kingdom the prior

39:18

Expression of God's kingdom on earth that is the the nation of Israel Was Just scattered abroad, you know, the temple was destroyed

39:27

Everything was was done away with and that was not just some accident. Jesus said it would happen and God came in judgment against unbelieving

39:37

Israel and Ended that kingdom and there's this one 40 year generation in between where where the

39:46

Where there's an overlap between these two these two kingdoms that the kingdom of heaven coming and the the kingdom of Israel Coming to a close.

39:55

So yeah, there's going to be a lot of confusion I think we see that in the Gospels in the book of Acts with people just wrestling with how does this all work?

40:05

And and we'll get in as we talk about specifics Some of the specifics I think we that's something that's got to be in the back of our mind it

40:14

That people were people Had certain different people have certain ideas about what the

40:21

Messiah coming would be like Jews today think well, there's no way he could be the

40:26

Messiah because he didn't usher in peace on earth You know and bring about that that earthly kingdom the way that they thought he would and there were people back then who thought that too but You know as as we read in the

40:40

New Testament We see that people are really wrestling with it And I think that's where a lot of this comes from is is that same wrestle wrestling match going on?

40:48

Okay, and then just real quickly so Deuteronomy 13. I'm curious about that the prophet test proves the law is unchangeable

40:55

So I'm thinking you know We use this all the time when we're out talking to our Mormon friends and neighbors or really anybody who?

41:03

Says oh, well, this is I'm a prophet of God or someone says Oh, this is our prophet where Deuteronomy 13 essentially says that there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams who?

41:12

Puts about a miraculous sign of wonder, but then they say let us go after other gods Do not go after them for the

41:18

Lord your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart soul mind and strength so How does that work in the

41:26

Hebrew roots movement? I'm very curious about tell us about that. Yeah, so It's this is one of those times where that thing

41:34

I mentioned earlier happens a lot where? Where details are supplied that aren't actually in the text?

41:40

So in this in this text, yeah, you're right. It's it's the one You know if they say basically come after other gods

41:48

Let us serve them says you shall not listen to the words of the prophet or dreamer dreams The Lord your

41:54

God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your Soul you shall follow the Lord your

41:59

God and fear him and you shall keep his commandments So there's a mention of commandments right now in Context the commandments that that Moses is is talking about here that you know, he's given the commands of God He's talking about not going after other gods

42:17

It's very clear that this is you know, if you were to go after other gods, you are breaking the first commandment, right?

42:25

You shall have no other gods before me. Yeah, so so to do that is to be someone who

42:31

Who is breaking commandments? But then it says you you know, you shall put him to death

42:37

He's counseled rebellion against the Lord your God brought you from the land of Egypt and It says to sit to seduce you from the way which the

42:48

Lord your God commanded you to walk and again What is the way to you know fidelity to God?

42:55

Yeah, it doesn't say In every single command that God ever gave

43:01

That command must not Must not cannot ever change. This isn't a general

43:08

Statement that that know that God couldn't change, you know Something as it relates to us

43:14

In fact, you know, this is in the Torah. Well in the earlier in the Torah You have

43:20

God changing things, you know, you have God changing the laws regarding Dietary stuff, you know in Genesis 1 he says

43:28

I give you all the plants to eat in Genesis 9 He says now I give you all the animals to eat as well

43:34

Just as I give you the the plants so God can change what he what he says in some regards

43:41

Which is why this text is not general, it doesn't say regarding every single command if some prophet comes along and says

43:49

Let's go. Let's do this a little different. He's a false prophet It's saying now if he's just saying that Again, if you don't have any good reason to believe him, you know, if he's just saying that oh, yeah

44:03

You just shouldn't do this thing. God said yeah, you you shouldn't believe him because you've heard from God only

44:08

God can Make those kinds of oh, man. That's a that's a major major Word play parsing of words as far as that proof text goes

44:18

I mean Andrew so as you probably have quoted that passes more than I have What do you think about that?

44:26

That use of that passage. What will come as the mind with you? yeah, I don't know I I was started just to thinking about a

44:32

Deuteronomy 6 and talking about you know the What where is there here says you shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontless between your

44:41

Eyes, you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gate. So it seems to me like It would be very easy to fall into the trap

44:50

As taking Deuteronomy 13 as the Hebrew roots person would and almost end up being like the person who puts the phylacteries on their hands

44:57

With parts of like the law in them on there and on their foreheads the same people that Jesus goes you have no idea

45:03

What the law is about? You know that that's kind of what it yeah What it makes me think about if you're looking at something as a text in Deuteronomy 13 as a grace given to us by God not to fall prey to false prophets to try to justify the fact that that feasts and things of these nature that were given to Israel just how

45:23

Jew was drew is just talking about the covenants different covenants the old and new covenant one has been gone away with there was that 40 year generation in between the two where the confusion was arriving if you're if you're going to text like Deuteronomy 13

45:35

To say that we still need to do all of the things and observe the things that the Jews were supposed to observe to keep them from syncretism

45:43

Well, we're now almost syncretizing our freedom in Christ in a sense in in a weird way

45:48

I don't know. Do you find that true? Just do any of them ever do phylacteries or anything like that anyone in the Hebrew roots movement? Do they go that far or they just go now?

45:55

That's not I they were Which is funny because that's not even in the Old Testament. Yeah The head coverings are very common among the women for the men to at all mmm a

46:09

Some do wear the like Just like there is with any culture and I wouldn't necessarily say it's wrong, right, you know, you're

46:18

Us Reformed Baptists. We have the way that we are to when it comes to our aesthetic. Yeah Yeah, we're

46:24

I mean obviously I think with apology. We're kind of like a height. We're like a weird hybrid of like Yeah, you know so but so speaking of you mentioned to like we mentioned

46:34

Ideas of kosher dietary restrictions, that's the other part real quickly So there's a couple different proof texts that they go to in general

46:41

But give some examples of what you've seen whether it's just your your public interactions with people that you know

46:48

Or you mentioned here, you know this poor lady who is you know trying to?

46:53

Articulate the Passover to the best of her ability and she ends up in this really really unfortunate situation

46:59

But what are some examples of how you've seen this play out with when it comes to food dietary restrictions

47:07

What is and what is not kosher give us some examples of what that tangibly looks like in that culture of Hebrew roots?

47:14

unfortunately tangibly They go down a path to eventually deny Paul and then deny

47:21

Christ because the whole book of Galatians is all about Let's not put these extra laws on our new

47:27

Gentile brethren and then you have kill and eat

47:32

Peter and acts and Eventually, they do have to deny that if they're intellectually honest and it it happens a lot

47:40

Unfortunately, and it's really scary. So it really is so it's amount of it mean is something where it start off is saying

47:47

Well, don't eat pork But then it go it that's like the very beginning Well, this is actually an unclean, you know animal or don't don't have you know, like for me like I can't have like pulled pork

47:59

Like for some people it's okay for me. Like I did I choose not to eat it just because it bothers my stomach

48:04

You know, well, yeah, I mean, I like me. I still like bacon though, you know, but you know, there's one example

48:11

I think there's someone who critiqued our initial episode and this person made Andrew you're laughing over there

48:16

I know you like your bacon, bro. You can't eat I follow Drew's probably told you

48:21

I follow all of the Old Testament cleanliness laws when it comes to my menstrual cycle Yeah, I I don't think

48:28

I know any other Christian girls that do that who aren't Hebrew roots. So it's weird They kind of come to my youtube channel thinking

48:34

I'm one of them and then they find out. Nope Actually, your husband is a very prolific author of a lot of content against your false teaching.

48:42

Hmm. Yeah interesting Well, yeah, but yeah, but so like some examples when it comes to like dietary stuff

48:49

So the one of the guys who's critiquing our podcast the net one that we initially didn't get he mentioned

48:56

Maybe a little tiny like 30 -second snippets of clips and then he just kind of ranted for quite a bit

49:01

You know and they everyone ever can do their YouTube channel how they want to but one thing that stuck out to me

49:07

I can't remember the name of the YouTube channel, but he made it a complete equivalence between Violating God's dietary laws of pork

49:15

Versus what versus a homosexuality? Yep, it's all the same which is interesting too because you have people on the uber liberal progressive

49:23

Christianity who will say oh Well homosexual a man can't lie to the man Well, do you do shellfish where they're trying to make distinctions in a very liberal sort of way

49:34

But here they are completely making an equivalence in is in a distorted sort of way

49:39

They can't take the whole counsel of God in a logical manner. Yeah, and it's it's it's one of the

49:45

It's it's one of the tactics that that you see a lot with if someone doesn't really

49:52

Isn't really a serious person when it comes to the scriptures You know if they if their goal and and I'm sorry to put it this way

50:00

But if the goal is just to promote a certain position and agenda and it's not really to understand for yourself

50:06

What the Word of God says right and and then present that and if It is a very common tactic to hear someone say well

50:17

In response to us saying I don't think that the dietary laws apply to us like they the same way they did in Israel To say okay.

50:26

Well, so you think some of the law is so number one. You're you're anti the law That's not what that means number two you

50:35

You think that you know, we can just do away with the Word of God and that you therefore you you

50:42

You have no it's you can't say that it's wrong to commit murder or homosexuality or any of that other stuff and as if there's no difference as if between eating something bad or Killing someone.

50:56

Yeah, and also as if there's no meaningful Work that has ever been done to understand our

51:05

How we relate to the law and how different parts of the law are actually different Yeah, and that you can actually find this in the text itself

51:13

Yeah, so what I'm curious about too as we kind of wrap up here is that? when they are trying to rediscover the

51:22

Correct dietary aspect wouldn't what quote -unquote is coat is kosher I mean just in the realm of just order that I in the realm of Judaism I mean you have reformed you have reformed conservative and Orthodox branches to Judaism and they probably have various variants

51:37

I'm assuming with how they would view the different dietary Restrictions, which you can and can't do the prominent teachers that are like super cool and popular

51:47

Really shame young women for not like selling everything to move out of the dirty city so you can stop eating

51:55

GMOs and stuff that's not food. It gets really hairy, right? Yeah, cuz

52:01

I remember this for example, too. I worked at a number to Costco. There was one Area over here in the valley is one particular store.

52:08

I can't remember exactly where it's located but because the Neighborhood and what she was placed in it was a predominantly

52:15

Jewish neighborhood So the bakery they actually had they had to make a certain kind of just kosher

52:23

Specifically like kosher Costco croissants or however, they knew that which is kind of interesting But I'm just real quick I give a couple examples of proof texts that they use and like how you quickly would respond to as we wrap up here

52:34

Sure. Sure So a couple things it's really common and we've kind of touched on this for for someone in in Hebrew roots or Torah observance to say that the law is

52:48

Eternal that it's eternally unchanging that kind of a thing and there are a

52:56

Couple of examples and and I'll I got I got kind of two things.

53:01

I want to point to with that number one that they'll say well, it didn't start with Moses because you can go to Genesis 26 5 and It talks of it's

53:11

God speaking to Abraham and saying that you've kept my commandments and my laws Now we read that and we say well, yeah,

53:21

I mean God told Abraham to do stuff and he did it. Like why why what does that have to do with the whole?

53:29

legal system that God gave Moses and But you know that's that's one of the things that they'll point to what

53:37

I would point to is as a question to someone who brings that Up is you'll notice that it says my laws

53:42

Plural the the word there is Torah. It's plural of Torah And I would ask them how many

53:50

Torahs are there? You know how many when when you say your Torah observant like like Abraham, you know, how many

53:57

Torahs? You know, is it just is there just the one Torah or is it many Torahs? Yeah, obviously when

54:03

God said that to Abraham he wasn't saying My Torah like the Torah. He was saying my laws that the instructions the things

54:11

I told you to do Yeah, there's more than one of those but and and that idea that that the law

54:18

Was around in Genesis the same roughly the same way as it was with Moses It's it's contradicted, you know in the

54:25

New Testament Paul talks about in Romans 5 he says There was no, you know sin is not taken into account where there's no law and there was no law between Adam and Moses Does that mean there was no law like there was no such thing as sin between Adam and Moses Well, of course not.

54:43

Uh -huh. He was talking about the law of Moses in in Galatians 3 17 he specifically says the law which came 430 years after Abraham So it came into existence for him four and thirty years later and in a couple verses later

55:01

It says it was added the law itself was added because of transgressions So the idea that it goes back to eternity is just again not not borne out in the

55:10

Scriptures But the other side of it is does it? Continue, you know

55:15

Into eternity just as it was in in the text and the common way that this is argued is the the term forever

55:23

You'll see it a lot. You'll see it in in It's in Leviticus 23, which talks about the various feast days.

55:31

It says you you know, keep this as as an eternal Statute throughout your generations or keep it keep this forever throughout your generations.

55:39

So hey there it says forever, right? So if it's forever then

55:44

We have to do it forever The there's a few problems with that Number one is that that term forever in the

55:54

Hebrew is Olam and it doesn't literally only mean forever You may have heard this from one place or another but it's an interesting thing about Both Hebrew and Greek is that neither of them has a word that specifically means forever or eternal

56:11

So it's just like a really long time and it might mean forever depending on the context

56:16

But they don't have a specific word for it. But in Deuteronomy 15 16 and 17 it says this it says this is about a if you have a slave and It you know, it's come time for that slave to be set free

56:32

Then it comes in it says this is but if he says to you is it this is the slave I will not go out from you because he loves you and your household since he is well off with you then you shall take an all and put it through his ear into the door and he shall be your slave forever and To your female slave you shall do the same

56:52

So does this slave remain a slave of this family? Eternally Or is it just for the rest of his life, right?

57:02

And in Numbers 10 verse 8 it says it talks about the sons of Aaron The priest says the sons of Aaron the priests shall blow the trumpets.

57:11

This will be an eternal decree Same word for your generations. What's it talking about?

57:16

This is the trumpets to break down the camp of Israel to move to another place, right?

57:23

So Like in in in a generation's time in 40 years This was no longer ever going to be done again because they were going to go into the land of Israel Yeah, but it's it's forever, you know, and so forever when it comes to the

57:38

Torah it it usually lasts at least a lifetime at least a human lifetime from the time the command is given to You know a generation 40 years that kind of thing

57:50

But it doesn't you know, it doesn't necessarily mean you know, you have to give more than just oh it says forever

57:57

So it must be forever Yeah, and I think does and I appreciate that and then just I think there's a you know We always have the saying that you know, bad theology hurts people

58:06

Well, really a bad understanding of the law and the Torah enslaves people And so that's that's what we want to do

58:12

It's one that we want to ultimately have a proper understanding of that So what we're gonna do is we're gonna wrap up here and me and Andrew I saw like your head your mind being blown your the wheels and in your head being like turning

58:23

So what we're gonna do is I'm gonna let you introduce I'm gonna have you kick off part two it with whatever questions you have and then we'll jump right into it

58:31

So I'm always one doing that. So we'll uh, we'll just hold that and so all that being said We went a little over an hour for our first introductory overview.

58:40

And this is just an understanding. This is a very Broad and comprehensive group. So even kind of just talking about some of the general proof text

58:48

There's a lot to cover and we didn't even cover everything. We initially planned to do So and that's just part of what happens in a conversation.

58:55

So we're going to jump into part two Next week. So if you guys have enjoyed this definitely let us know what you thought

59:02

Leave us a review on iTunes and as always a program like this cannot continue without your support

59:07

So if you feel led to support cultish go to the cultist show .com. There is a donate tab You can donate one time or monthly all that being said we'll talk to you guys next time on cultists