Before Interviewing Hank Hanegraaff

Revealed Apologetics

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Haha, we started one minute early. It is 859 Technically I said that I would be going live at 9, but up it's 9 o 'clock.

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There we go. Perfect Welcome to another episode of revealed apologetics. I'm your host Eli Ayala And I am going to spend a little time in this episode kind of explaining

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What's gonna go down tomorrow with my interview with Hank Hanegraaff of CRI the

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Christian Research Institute Which was founded I believe by dr.

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Walter Martin if you guys remember a couple of episodes ago I had an interview with Dr.

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Walter Martin's daughter if you don't know who dr. Walter Martin is then I would highly suggest that you check out his stuff

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He is the author of the classic book Kingdom of the cults the kingdom of the cults, which is basically a an apologetics work that addresses

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You know how to respond to various cults Jehovah's Witness Mormons you know all sorts of different groups they are very very useful book and definitely a must -have if you are

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Trying to develop an apologetics library. Okay, definitely you want to check that out.

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Also. Dr. Walter Martin has some lectures on YouTube you can find they're not as as Prevalent as as one would hope

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He was such a great teacher Dr. Martin was and so I wish there was more

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More information and more material out there. However, however, I am in the works of receiving some of the cassettes that have the recordings as to when

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Walter Martin was The host of the Bible Answer Man. And so of course as I said before he's the original

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Bible Answer Man So I'm going to come into possession of those with the goal of having someone develop them into mp3s and then making available because I think that Walter Martin was an excellent apologist and definitely someone that I think

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Has much to say even even though he passed away. I believe 1989 or something like that But at any rate so again, so the reason why

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I wanted to have this episode was to kind of explain what's going on When I had posted a while back that I was gonna have

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Hank Hanegraaff on of course The internet is the internet and so people They were reaching out to me people were were saying.

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Hey, what are you doing? You know, are you compromising blah blah blah blah blah blah blah those kinds of things. Well, I want to I Want to Clarify my position

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Okay with regards to this and I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about a couple of things here in this episode number one I'm gonna talk talk to you guys about where I stand with regards to orthodoxy number two

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I'm gonna talk about the purpose of the interview and kind of the events surrounding

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The how I am was able to get Hank to come on And then

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I want to talk about the importance of having these sorts of discussions And then I want to talk about what is going to follow

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This interview, okay Because there is a reason and a purpose as to why I wanted to have

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Hank on and I think hopefully Hopefully folks will see That the the reason that I that I desire to have him on is legitimate

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And so I'll explain that in just a few moments here Okay now What is my stance on orthodoxy?

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Okay now everyone listening on the internet, okay? I want you to look directly into your your phone or your your computer screen.

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I am NOT an Orthodox Person I do not agree with orthodox theology with regards to the what

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I think are the essential features of the gospel I think that Eastern Orthodoxy has a false gospel message

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And I believe that Eastern Orthodox folks should be evangelized I'm going to say that again lest I be accused of any compromise in any in any way shape or form

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I believe that Eastern Orthodoxy has a false gospel and this is essentially because of the denial of Sola Fide which

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I think is an essential feature of the Christian faith Okay, so I'm letting you know right now when

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I say I'm studying Eastern Orthodoxy I am NOT studying Eastern Orthodoxy because I'm thinking about becoming

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Eastern Orthodox You see I'm studying Eastern Orthodoxy because that is an aspect of the umbrella of what has been understood historically as an aspect of Christianity That I'm not familiar with and every time

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I ask even scholars I've asked scholars about Eastern Orthodoxy and as brilliant as Many of the scholars

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I've had on this show as brilliant as they are I get the same answer the answer is well

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I don't really know much about Eastern Orthodoxy and then they'll kind of sprinkle some things that they heard or whatever

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And so I'm I'm a student. I like to learn it doesn't matter if it's a false view or a true view or a variation between I'm a student

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I I like to learn and unlike some people I do not have the ability to Collect all of the books that are written on this topic and read them all and so I Primarily learn although I do read as you see books in the background, right?

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I learn primarily through conversation. I learn through Discussion and depending on the context

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I learn through Debate, okay. It's not someone is just writing in the comments. I don't even know what

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Eastern Orthodoxy is. See that's the problem That's the problem. So so here's the thing with regards to Eastern Orthodoxy I don't know much about it, but I know enough about it that I reject it.

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Does that make sense? Okay I'll say that again. I don't know much about it, but I know enough about it that I reject it

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Okay, that is not to say that we therefore should never have conversations with people who are

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Eastern Orthodox The fact that I'm speaking with an Eastern Orthodox person doesn't mean that I agree with them in their

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Eastern Orthodoxy So I'm gonna repeat it over and over and over again because I know how the internet is.

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Okay when you see me Talk to you guys.

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I really want to be genuine with you guys. Okay. I am a Protestant Christian I believe in the five solas of the

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Reformation. I believe in sola fide. I believe in sola gratia I believe in sola scriptura.

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I believe in solus Christus. I believe in soli Deo gloria I believe in all of those matter of fact the previous episode

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I had dr. Tony Costa fine scholar defend the five solas of the

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Reformation I firmly firmly believe in those and by the way, I think Tony did an excellent job.

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And if you want to If you want to Kind of get a good defense from an informed voice on this the five solas

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I would highly recommend that you guys watch the previous episode that I did with dr Tony Costa and I'm gonna talk a little bit about him because I'm gonna have him back on And this is connected to what we're doing here.

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Okay, so again My position on Eastern Orthodoxy it has a false gospel

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Roman Catholicism has a false gospel Or is it possible for people to be in the

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Roman Catholic Church and be saved? Is it possible for people to be in the Eastern Orthodox Church and be saved?

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Yes, it is possible It is but when affirming when affirming

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Fully what these churches teach then I think that there lies the key issue and it is an it is something that is of apologetic importance

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Okay now Now that I've laid out my perspective and alienated any

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Eastern Orthodox person who listens to my channel or any Roman Catholic person who listens? To my channel. I'm just being frank with you, but that's my position

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And that's my my understanding of what I think are Essentials where when these groups deviate from what

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I think are those essential features of what makes the gospel the gospel I think that's where we need to speak up that said

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Hank Hanegraaff in my own apologetic journey has proved to be

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Very very helpful to me before he made the switch, of course And in my formative years of doing apologetics,

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I found his material very helpful I do not hate Hank Hanegraaff. As a matter of fact, I am quite delighted to be speaking with him

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Okay, that's not to say I want to butter him up or make him feel as though he's just you know

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One of the you know, one of the brothers, you know, so to speak But the amazing thing is that within the context of me being able to interview

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Hank He agreed okay, he agreed and this was my qualification that if I were to have him on I asked him

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Not personally through a contact and we kind of had a middleman. I mean, he's a very busy guy So it's not like he's we're talking on the phone or anything like that By the way as a complete aside

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People talk to me about you know, this scholar and that scholar just because I have them on the show doesn't mean that we're buddy -buddy

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Okay, so I don't get to talk to all these guys, you know all the time, you know off off the you know off YouTube Okay, but that being said

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Hank I think was Generous enough through my interactions through email and through our middleman to allow me to give the qualifier before I have him on and let people know my position on Eastern Orthodoxy and I thought that I that was something

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I very much appreciated that Hank was Was fine with I mean it basically in essence.

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He was agreeing that He was agreeing to come on and at the same time He was agreeing that I would share my position that I don't think

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Eastern Orthodoxy has a true gospel Okay, but the amazing thing is that even if that's my position and maybe

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Hank would disagree of course Hank would hold to and he said this multiple times.

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He holds to the notion of mere Christianity Which we'll probably talk a little bit about when he's on and maybe he can kind of unpack that from his perspective

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He holds to that he might not see me as someone who's outside the faith Okay, it might be if I think

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I've heard him say that the Roman Catholic Church he acknowledged is a true church, but has grave error and And I heard him say in some context that he believes that Protestants are also brothers and sisters in Christ so He may not share the position

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I hold But we disagree we disagree, but that doesn't mean we can't have a conversation And it doesn't mean that I can't learn from someone who holds to that position.

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Okay It's not sinful for me to sit down with an Eastern Orthodox person and ask them about their views

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So that I can clearly understand where they're coming from and then draw those Important distinctions from what

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I believe and what I believe the scriptures teaches versus another person's position. That's how communication works

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Okay, it's very easy that when we're on the internet and you see something It's same thing with all the flack that James White got when he was

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When he had those dialogues with Yasir Qadhi. Okay, and this whole thing broke out, which

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I thought was ridiculous And I thought that those conversations were immensely useful and that dr.

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James White did not deserve The backlash that he got from for many people listen when we are able to communicate when we are able to communicate with people we don't agree with that is a good thing and To be able to do that without Compromising the gospel and without compromising our principles.

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That is a good thing Okay so I wanted to kind of let people know where I stand with regards to orthodoxy and the fact that Hank was generous enough to allow me to Have him on and share that and express that and still be willing to have a discussion

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I think that's a good thing But if we're so quick to shoot down the other perspective then where where are the where's the communication happening?

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You see what I'm saying? Same thing with what James White speaks about with regards to Muslims if our communities are not speaking

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How are we going to engage in a meaningful fashion so as to get at truth? Okay.

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Now that said Hank is coming on tomorrow at 4 p .m. Eastern. Okay But it's not a debate.

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I'm not debating him. I'm asking questions I'm learning his perspective and perhaps I'll give some some pushback here and there because I do want to see how he

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Understands certain perspectives and you know the Protestant perspective and how they enter interact with each other

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But if I challenged Hank to a debate I probably wouldn't he probably wouldn't come on and and quite frankly,

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I Respect his knowledge of Scripture. He definitely has more experience than I do.

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And so I wouldn't imagine that I would be so Be the kind of person that says all right

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Hank. Come on. Come on my channel so we can debate. No, I'm Someone might feel comfortable doing that but for myself

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As I said before I'm a student I do like to learn a person's position and I learn best through conversation

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So that's really where I'm coming from. So I hope folks understand Especially my root my reformed brothers.

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There are a lot of reformed people who are very passionate about their theology and I am too But at the same time

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I hope you guys see the value in discussions like this now There was a comment in the comments just now and I just read it real quick that really encapsulates why

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I wanted Hank on Okay I'm still not convinced. You're not looking to become

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I I totally am not looking I am a fully and thoroughly convinced Protestant Christian and I am a bloodthirsty

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Calvinist, okay, I believe in the five points of Calvinism. I believe in the solas

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But I don't know everything and I and I'm not saying that I don't know whether those things are true

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I am very convinced that they are But I am very much still learning other positions so that I could adequately address them within an apologetics context same thing

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If I was learning Jehovah's Witness theology, I'd have to read Jehovah's Witness works

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I'd have to talk to Jehovah's Witnesses, right? And so when we can do those things respectfully, I think that's that's a good thing

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All right. So the primary purpose of having Hank on is for Education For myself and for the listeners and for all those who share this sentiment ready for all those who share the sentiment

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What on earth is Eastern Orthodoxy? Right. That's the question that comes up. And so That is the reason why

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I'm having him on. Okay, so that He could explain his position those who don't know the position are like, huh?

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That's the position Okay And now knowing the position there is apologetic value there

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Once you listen and hear what the other side has to say Then you take what scripture says you're you're

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Protestant hopefully Protestant position and you are able to address the views as they're clearly

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Laid out. Okay. I think that is a very very good thing. All right

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So that's really the purpose. Okay now that being said Because I desire to teach and to help people within the apologetics context, okay

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I'm not going to leave this interview hanging in the middle of nowhere, right?

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You kind of have an Eastern Orthodox guy. Come on. He shares his view and all right Well, that's what Eastern Orthodoxy believes and I completely disagree.

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Okay, I'm not leaving it there Okay, if you guys have seen my previous episode where I had dr.

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Tony Costa on very very solid Reformed scholar What I want he's gonna be coming, but he agreed to come back on so as to address

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Okay, my discussion with Hank not to bash Hank not to make fun of and point fingers at Look at the

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Eastern Orthodox people and how wrong they are but rather to go through my discussion, okay and Critique it biblically and that second

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Episode that kind of the episode after Hank is going to act as kind of that Here is the apologetical nuggets that we can take from this discussion.

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That is useful Okay, and I think again that's gonna be very helpful

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So, please I want you to see this what I'm talking about here the discussion with Hank and my follow -up analysis of that discussion with With dr.

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Tony Costa, I want you to see these as kind of a tri partite series a Trinitarian of sorts kind of series where we could address.

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Here's the reason why I'm doing this. Here is the discussion Look how respectful we can be look how informative it can be and at the same time

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Let's take a look then as to how we might critique this perspective and make some apologetic application

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So that the next time you guys who are reformed Maybe Protestant come in contact with an

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East in Eastern Orthodox Person you kind of have a springboard as to where they're coming from so that you can tether your apologetic

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Interaction accordingly. Okay. I think that's very very important to keep in mind. Okay, so that's my stance on Eastern Orthodox position.

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That's my purpose for having the interview I do not hate Hank Hanegraaff as I said before I'm actually super excited to be talking with him

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But at the same time we do strongly disagree and and hopefully those disagreements can be

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Distinguished and we can kind of talk about that in the follow -up episode. Okay. All right And I guess

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I kind of covered the importance of having these sorts of discussions All right now that out of the way completely different Topic I want to give people some updates.

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My presep answer book is I started writing Okay Yay, you have no idea how difficult it is to write and be

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Busy the way I am. I know I have three little kids. They're amazing I love my family love my kids, but things are super pardon super busy at home and so it has been slow, but I have finished

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I have finished a couple of the questions the couple of the questions so Interestingly enough if I can tie this back to Hank Hanegraaff The inspiration for writing a presep answer book was actually the

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Bible answer book Okay and so the Bible answer book was a book written by a couple of books written by Hank Hanegraaff where he answers

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Bible questions in a kind of Devotions length, you know responses so it's kind of brief

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It doesn't go too in -depth, but it gives you kind of a little nugget Okay, and again, those were written when he was Protestant, right?

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But that was kind of the inspiration I am super busy so a book like that actually

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Caters to my busy schedule because I can just sit address a question and like a page and a half or something like that move

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On okay, the book doesn't have chapters. It just has numbered questions.

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So like question number one What are presuppositions question number two? What is presuppositional apologetics question number three?

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you know, what is Neutrality question number four. What is autonomy?

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Okay, and so I'm gonna go through in question form some of the important presuppositional apologetic

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Methodological terminology that's a mouthful, right? I'm gonna go through some of the vocabulary that I think is important to go through and then we will go through What we like you're writing the book.

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I'm writing the book. I have to go through all this stuff Actually, that's not true You guys helped me some of you guys sent in questions that I want to include in the in the book but then it will go into some of the the in -house debate

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Criticisms the in -house debate criticism So, you know, how would a presupper respond to some of our classical brothers those who alter the classical apologetic methodology?

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you know things that are more philosophical in nature like the The claim that presupposition list mix up Mix up Ontology and epistemology so we're gonna go into some of those things we'll also go into the differences between different presupposition list, you know, what's the difference between Vantill and Gordon Clark or Francis Schaeffer, okay so we're gonna be covering a bunch of those things in short little snippets and the purpose of this is to really be

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To give a resource for people a quick resource to kind of answer some of those questions that usually come up Someone's asked me am

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I a presupposition list sure am if you have listened to if it is your first time here If you watch a lot of my previous episodes,

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I am a presupposition list of the Vantillian flavor I I used to be a

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Clarkian. I was a Vantillian. I Flirted with Clarkian presuppositional ism.

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And by the way, while I'm not a Clarkian I really do like the writings of Gordon Clark So I do

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I do encourage people to still read them even though I kind of disagree in the final analysis But again, that's another issue so these the books are gonna cover those sorts of things and then

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I want I Want a section that addresses the really the lay person now this the whole book is is written for lay people

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But I may cover some philosophical issues that require some background But I do want to cover

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I would want to have a section of questions that address the everyday person You know, like how would we respond to this objection from a biblically faithful?

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Apologetic methodology, and so it'll be more practical kind of a quick, you know a

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Quick way to address some of those issues. All right, so that's kind of really, you know

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It's moving along slowly, but I've got some stuff and I actually started and it's a pretty it's pretty awesome

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Okay. So now for my large project I have a large project going on that I I'm excited to tell people about And hopefully people will be excited once things get started on running along,

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I'm sorry, my screen is going berserk So apologies one second. There we go My laptop is like sometimes possessed by a demon

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I'll be like talking in like a thing will like pop up on the side and and all of a sudden I lost my my

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Screen, so maybe we could anoint the you know a little that's the Pentecostal background in me, right?

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Could anoint my computer with oil Put some oil there pray over it so that maybe it'll stop.

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It'll stop messing around with me But I wanted to announce my large project, which is a pretty big deal for me.

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And I'm hoping that it has a positive response

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I am working on getting a revealed apologetics website going and Offering online

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Schools, okay, so I will be teaching a class on Apologetics a presuppositional apologetics where people can sign up, you know

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You pay a fee since I obviously I'm gonna try to put a lot of work into it. And so That definitely will be helpful, you know people's financial

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Help would be something that would be very useful for that You'll be able to sign up, you know

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Watch the the courses and things like that and learn a presuppositional methodology from someone who is not a scholar

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I've been told that I'm very well -spoken. Okay, and I appreciate that. I am a teacher I do teach middle school high school a teacher to Christian private school and I do teach apologetics and things like that But I'm not a scholar.

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I don't have a PhD or something like that and so I have found that Folks find it useful when someone who is well -spoken has teaching experience is able to convey the information in a way

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That's easily understood as opposed to kind of sitting in a seminary class or something like that. So so the goal is to create these online courses and Offer them for for a price people can sign up and You go through the lessons and finally at the end you'll be equipped to kind of engage unbelievers from a

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Presuppositional perspective and of course more importantly I think from a biblical perspective as you know, I've said in the past I do find very much the presuppositional apologetic methodology to be the methodology that is supported in Scripture Okay, so that's kind of my big project of sorts

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Folks are asking me, you know, how much would the classes be? I have No clue.

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I have no clue how much they'll be. This is something I'm working on. It's still in in seed form

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And so I've never done this before I teach in many capacities I'm a traveling speaker just kind of do a little advertisement here.

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If you want me to come to your church, I do Conferences and things like that where I can teach workshops and stuff.

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And so I am a public speaker. I spoke at various places I've been invited to speak at Texas A &M

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International University where I shared the stage with some other apologists as well Um, so if you guys are interested in having me come to your church or something like that I definitely do those things but With regards to kind of doing these classes,

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I think I think a more Classroom sort of experience is good for people.

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Okay, and so I think folks can benefit from what I have to share and if Hopefully the goal is that people find it useful and helpful in the task of defending the faith

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I mean we need to equip people unfortunately many churches aren't spending much time Equipping their people with apologetics

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But we are the body of Christ and I am a body part of the body

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You are part of the body and we help each other, right? So my task is to help others equip them and of course,

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I'm helped by others as well in various capacities so I think this is a Going to be a very something an exciting project for me and I think hopefully very useful for folks who sign up Okay, but once we get the details the website up and all that those details worked out

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I'll let everybody know. Of course, you guys will know the pricing the different kinds of courses I'm I'm thinking about doing kind of different categories.

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So, you know, there will be courses on theology a basic Christian doctrine apologetic methodology

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Maybe an evangelism course something like that where we can kind of you can sign up for multiple things and we can walk through you know a

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Course that will help folks do those things more effectively. Okay, so that's basically it

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I wanted to make those announcements and kind of explain You know, what's gonna go down tomorrow again just to remind people tomorrow.

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It's 4 p .m. With Hank anagraph. I'll be doing live It's not a debate.

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Okay So just want to get you guys to get that in your in your mind And as I said before we're not going to leave it hanging in the middle of nowhere

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I'll be having dr. Tony Costa come on to give an analysis of our discussion and perhaps give some helpful responses to To the

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Eastern Orthodox position from a reformed perspective. Okay, so Let me

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Take some questions. If there are any questions, please feel free to type them in. I know some folks have

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There are a bunch of comments here so far as I got a scroll through them So I'll take a couple here and feel free if you have any questions to type them in I am in no rush.

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I will Try my best to cover. Let's see here. Um, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

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Okay. Here's a comment Okay, a scripture here have nothing to do with the fruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

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Amen Yeah, I agree with that. I Hope that the assumption the presupposition

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Get it the assumption is not that by talking to an Eastern Orthodox person that therefore

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I am having something to do with the fruitless deeds of Darkness, I think that that cannot be defended. Obviously, we are to speak with people that we don't agree with There's educational value in that and of course,

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I'm not doing this Ambiguously such so as to give the impression that there's just no difference here.

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It's just another denomination I've already expressed my position there. So hopefully that clarifies That clarifies that there

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Okay Let's see here And this question comes up a lot it do you adhere to absolute divine simplicity if so How is that compatible with divine conceptualism we

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Orthodox accept the essence energy distinction which can account for this? I do in a simple sense a simple

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I didn't do that on purpose I do in a simple sense accept divine simplicity But that's just to say that I do not believe that God is composed of any parts

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He's simple in his being now There is a broader discussion with regards to simplicity and I am somewhat familiar

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Although not too familiar with the essence energy distinction within Eastern Orthodoxy So I don't know the connection there and I know there is a connection

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And so actually that might be something to bring up, you know in our discussion What do

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Orthodox folks believe about the essence energy distinction? Okay, by the way, that is a Specific theological aspect of Eastern Orthodoxy that I thought was interesting and wanted to explore

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So yeah, so I do hold to divine simplicity But there is some variation with how folks

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Accept that there are strong senses of divine simplicity and weaker senses of divine simplicity that are held by By Protestants across the board.

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So it really depends in what sense and that's an area where I am still exploring

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What I find very interesting though If anyone is interested in this topic of divine simplicity, you might want to check out James D 'Alazal's book

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The God Without Parts where he talks about his particular Views on divine simplicity.

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I think he holds to the more traditional classical view of absolute divine simplicity But that's an interesting resource there folks are interested interested

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Here we go as another question, what would you say is the relationship between the abstract entities grounded in God's mind and the

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Trinity Well again, this becomes very difficult By the way abstract objects or abjure the kind of concepts ideas

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You know if you're referring to something like akin to like conceptualism divine conceptualism.

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I am a divine conceptualist I do believe that the that these ideas these abstract objects exist within the mind of God.

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That would be my position What is that in relationship to the Trinity is a difficult question because it's very hard to conceptualize the

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Trinity This is an aspect that I think even Eastern Orthodox folks can appreciate that I have no problem saying with regards to the

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Trinity that there is an aspect of mystery with regards to how to Conceptualize this. I mean when

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I think of three Automatically in my mind I make these Distinctions that are separate from one another and so it's hard to kind of conceptualize

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What that looks like with regards to quote the mind of God So to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't know exactly how the interplay it works out there

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Okay for me I would say that's kind of mysterious that might be due to my own ignorance or perhaps it is literally mysterious and it's not something

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That we could feasibly know so That would be my position there. Okay? Let's see here

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Okay, so JY says if you say Eastern Orthodox has a false gospel, would you say

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Would say would you say I think that's what you're trying to say those in the Eastern Orthodox are believing a false gospel and therefore

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Not believers. Yeah, that goes to the question or the point that I made earlier in the video And I guess

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I suppose I made it quick I I asked the question is it possible for a Roman Catholic to be saved or an

32:37

Eastern Orthodox person to be saved? Yes, it is possible But that needs to be tethered out a little more if for example, let's say for example with regards to Roman Catholicism if you fully understand

32:51

The teachings of Rome with regards to those essential soteriological issues and you embrace it

32:57

I would say I I would count that person as outside the camp of Christ Okay, because I I say this very seriously that official

33:09

Roman Catholic teaching is a false gospel and will Will place someone outside the camp of Christ now

33:18

That's not to say that there aren't folks within the Roman Catholic Church that may not fully understand those Implications and kind of in a simple way kind of just I just I'm trusting in Christ the best

33:28

I can and how I understand These issues I think it's possible that a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox person can be saved

33:34

But I mean that's gonna be an area where it's difficult to kind of explore if you ask me the bear question that's how

33:41

I would respond but a full acknowledgement of what of the denial for example of Justification by faith alone.

33:48

I think that that is a denial of essential Christian doctrine and it strikes at the very heart of the gospel So I do think that this is a very

33:54

Very very important issue. Okay. Now that doesn't mean I'm walking around pointed to Roman Catholics and all those people are not saved

34:01

That's not necessarily the case. And so that's why these issues are never simply just a black and white issue

34:07

That's why it's important to have Conversations and to and to discuss these issues with people instead of just making quick blanket statements in every instance

34:15

So I think that's a very important important point Urban reform podcast. I think that's

34:22

Oh Man, Ricky, there we go. Ricky. What's up, Ricky? Okay. Ricky's a buddy of mine and a solid presupposition listen reformed

34:30

Christian And he's saying here Walter Martin was a soldier. Absolutely guys

34:36

I said it before and I'll say it again if you have not listened to the you know, the audio lectures of Walter Martin There's some of them can be found in on YouTube Maybe in podcast form and I'm working on hopefully getting some more of that audio material out

34:52

That is I mean you need to listen to dr. Walter Martin not a Calvinist. Okay, ironically, though Ironically though when

35:00

I had his daughter on his daughter's a Calvinist, okay Cindy Cindy Martin, she's a

35:06

Calvinist which I she kind of you listened to the last episode. She kind of talked about How he used she used to get?

35:14

Walter Martin and her husband to kind of discuss these these issues. So that was an area of disagreement But overall, I think

35:20

Walter Martin was a solid Christian apologist and excellence communicator and speaker And so I do highly recommend his material

35:28

Okay, so let's see here There we go Slam our

35:34

N. I am totally with you on this. I suppose that's in reference to the Eastern Orthodox stuff I do appreciate that.

35:40

Thank you Let's see here Other people sharing the fact that they agree

35:48

Yeah Jay yes, if that didn't clear up anything nothing will yes. Thank you.

35:53

So I've given my clear stance on the orthodoxy issue Hopefully, I won't receive messages of to the contrary but again, it's the

36:01

Internet I mean things like that happen So, what are you gonna do? All right Okay, let's see here

36:09

Truth speller says amen. I appreciate the videos you do brother. Thank you so much. I enjoy doing them

36:15

This is really the purpose, isn't it? Right that if not simply appreciating the videos but seeing the value and the content of what we're talking about I think

36:22

I think online apologetics is such a vital vital thing in our specific day and age

36:28

I mean you think about it the Internet is the new gospel track, right? This is the way we reach the masses

36:34

And so I do appreciate that you appreciate the videos and I appreciate folks who who follow the channel

36:40

I appreciate the fact that you guys are finding the content so useful it it gives me the energy and the excitement to do more and more so Thank you very much

36:50

Uh, let's see here. Do you believe Orthodox Christians can be saved? Yes, I believe that anyone can be saved right

36:59

Literally in the sense that God can save anyone Don't twist my words there just in case

37:04

Yeah, like I said before it is possible that there are people in the Eastern Orthodox Church that are saved

37:10

But again, there's there's more to hash out there There's some difficult conversation to have to navigate that sort of issue

37:17

But yes, I do think it is it is possible Let's see here.

37:22

See, okay. I Right here. I don't even know what Eastern Orthodoxy is That was the reason why is what and there's don't there's no shame in that by the way

37:31

A lot of people don't know and so that was kind of the inspiration to to kind of have Hank on and talk about the perspective someone did suggest to me to have

37:41

Jay Dyer on Um Jay Dyer Okay Huh?

37:50

I have never interacted with Jay Dyer however, I Have been present with him in the same room on discord and I have heard him interact with people and I Mean this respectfully.

38:07

I don't know him personally. I have watched a bunch of his videos Because I do think that just on a structural level

38:15

He uses the transcendental argument very well Okay now do I agree that the transcendental argument and the presuppositional methodology is

38:24

Something that can flow from an Orthodox theology. I am of the position that I don't think that's the case.

38:29

I do think that Cornelius van Til was on the right track in seeking to develop an apologetic methodology that flowed from a consistent

38:38

Reformed theological perspective so that I do believe that covenantal apologetics presuppositional apologetics van

38:45

Tilian apologetics, whatever you want to call it is Something that is a consistent outflow of reformed theology

38:52

And so I would disagree there but but the kind of person that I've seen Jay to be is is is a little troubling

38:58

He's a brilliant guy. I would really enjoy having just a conversation with him on the phone but I don't know a lot of his interactions have been

39:07

Troubling to me in regards to just the attitude some of the snarkiness that that he engenders sometimes and again

39:14

I don't mean this to to speak bad of him again. I don't know him and when he's not like that I really you know,

39:20

I think he has a lot of useful things to say but but I'm not sure I would feel comfortable having Someone like Jay on but I definitely would be open to speaking with him

39:29

Yeah, and anyway Let me hear so Melissa Owen says it's good to learn other views so that we can better refute them with the gospel and hopefully

39:37

Learn for ourselves. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I totally agree Melissa. Yes It is difficult to refute a position that you're not fully aware of and so I think it's important that we that we learn

39:49

However, however, and I'll emphasize this in our desire to learn other perspectives.

39:54

We do want to keep those Appropriate Dividing lines where they should be

40:00

Okay, we want to keep those appropriate dividing lines where they should be by the way

40:05

There's a really cool YouTube channel called the dividing line. I wonder if anyone's ever heard of it. Just kidding

40:10

That's James White's channel, um, which I highly recommend But I think dr. White is is spot -on in calling his channel

40:19

The dividing line is ministry the dividing line alpha and omega ministries, but the dividing lines YouTube channel There are dividing line issues that Christians need to be able to stand firmly upon While they defend the truth and sometimes that dividing line is brought out all the more

40:34

When it is brought in distinction to some of these other views that are dressed in gospel garb

40:41

But in fact are not the gospel and so when we learn about these views it kind of highlights those differences

40:46

Thus bringing out that dividing line all the more and for the inquisitive Christian who is asking these questions and seeks to defend the faith more faithfully

40:56

That will require us to really get into it a little bit and kind of learn what the other side is saying

41:01

So as to adequately address and engage, okay But the manner in which we engage and I've said this over and over and over again

41:10

The manner in which we gauge is to be with gentleness and respect.

41:15

Okay Yes, Jesus flipped the tables over in the temple But don't use that as an excuse to spearhead every unbeliever and scream heretic everywhere you go

41:26

Okay, there is balance in the way that we do these things. Okay. So again,

41:32

I Wanted to kind of highlight there. Okay Let's see here Jason says here

41:40

Jason Tolkien. That's an awesome last name. Jason Tolkien says Eli. You're a class act. Thank you very much Appreciate that I'd love to see you bring some education to the internet about Eastern Orthodoxy Yeah, I don't know if this is gonna be a topic that I'm gonna focus on too much, but it's definitely possible

41:57

I mean depending on how my conversation goes perhaps it'll open up certain, you know roads of interest that maybe

42:03

Maybe we can address those things I'd like to bring in some experts from the reformed camp who are very conversant with the

42:10

Eastern Orthodox perspective So we can kind of bring those important distinctions so people can benefit from those sorts of discussions.

42:16

So I definitely want to I want to help folks out. I want to learn myself

42:22

But at the same time want to help folks out who are dealing with Eastern Orthodox folks, but don't really know What's the difference and how might we address it?

42:30

There is the stereotype that Eastern Orthodox people are basically just Catholics without a

42:35

Pope, right? That's basic. Oh, you're Eastern Orthodoxy. Well, you're you're Catholic You just don't have a Pope, you know, that's not necessarily the case

42:42

Okay, and so I think it's important that we kind of look at the distinctive What is the difference between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy?

42:49

Where does Protestantism fit in? Why do we hold to the principles we do as Protestant Christians? And why are our principles rejected by Rome and rejected by the

42:59

Eastern Orthodox? I think those are important questions to have that will put us in a better position apologetically to engage those perspectives.

43:06

Okay. All right One more thing too Engaging Eastern Orthodox folks and Roman Catholic folks

43:15

I think for a lot of Protestants exposes a weakness on our part

43:21

Okay, not because I think that there's merit to the central message of Eastern Orthodoxy in Rome But more than many

43:29

Protestant churches notice the qualification there more than many and this is not a blanket statement But more than many

43:36

Protestant churches Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox folks tend to be more connected to their history

43:44

Yes, we disagree with how they use history in with many in many regards but they today they seem to have an

43:52

Acknowledgement of the past that a lot of Protestants don't Okay, we you know

43:59

James White and I'm mentioning James a lot because I've benefited greatly from his comments on Eastern Orthodoxy And even his comments about Hank Anagraff But he he made the comment once is not a direct quote

44:10

But he said that for a lot of evangelicals church history goes back to Billy Graham Okay, that's as far back as we go, you know, and unfortunately, that's true

44:19

Not only of the lay lay evangelical but even some Christian apologists myself included

44:25

I mean, I'm I'm familiar with church history more than just Billy Graham I mean, I I've studied church history, but I'm by no means any expert

44:33

I wish I was in a better position to in knowing church history so as to more adequately address the

44:39

Roman Catholic in the Eastern Orthodox, this is an area that a lot of Protestants I think there's a lot of room for improvement and being in touch with church history

44:46

So as to better defend those Reformation principles to respond to the

44:51

Catholic to respond to the Eastern Orthodox who says well Well, you know sola scriptura that that was a

44:56

Reformation innovation. It was invented by Martin Luther's How do how would you respond to those questions or justification my faith alone?

45:02

Oh the church never believed that you know You you need to know church history so as to address those questions

45:09

Okay, so I think this is very important Although it can be uncomfortable if we're not familiar with church history

45:14

It would make one hesitant to engage in an with an informed Roman Catholic or an informed

45:21

Eastern Orthodox person, okay Andy hello,

45:26

Andy says I love Hank and Eli also strawberry jelly. I don't know what the strawberry jelly Means, but I I love

45:34

Hank as well. I again, I don't I don't harbor any animosity towards him I am

45:39

I'm disheartened of his convert by his conversion But I I'm not gonna throw away a lot of the good things that he's contributed to the kingdom

45:49

Prior to this, you know his conversion things like that So yeah, I would say I love

45:54

Hank as well. And as I said before I'm excited to have a conversation with him So thank you for that Let's see, there we go slam

46:04

RN says Just like there are saved Roman Catholics. Many do not even know what their own church teaches.

46:10

That's very true. That's unfortunately. Yeah Here's a good question

46:15

Okay, why did Hank convert to Eastern Orthodoxy well if you're interested that's one of my questions for Hank I mean get his his conversion stories out there.

46:26

But again, that's gonna be a question I obviously will ask him and then he'll explain that you can kind of Kind of pick up the reason as to why he left the the he became

46:39

Eastern Orthodoxy So if the Eastern Orthodox, so we'll explore that a little bit on the show there So I'll let him speak for himself in that regard

46:47

Okay, let's see here Okay, let's see.

46:52

Let's see. Let's see But if someone is aware of Catholic or Orthodox doctrine and don't convert they can't be is that your position?

46:59

Yes Yes, that is my position. Yeah because official Roman Catholic teaching and official

47:06

Orthodox teaching has within it the rejection of what I what I think is

47:12

Essential to the gospel and that is justification by faith alone. I think that is a central issue

47:19

That is rejected by both Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy so again, this might not be a popular position even

47:27

Walter Martin the original Bible Answer Man believed that Roman Catholics The old

47:33

Roman Catholic Church is a true church with great error and I know that Hank believes that the

47:39

Roman Catholic Church is a true church, but with great error and When I spoke with Cindy Martin Walter Martin's daughter in the episode, which again,

47:49

I really hope you guys watch that episode was great conversation Excellent conversation, but she even held to the position that yeah

47:57

I think are there there are brothers and sisters in Christ in the Eastern Orthodox Church and you know that there it's a false church

48:02

I mean a false I'm sorry, lots of error, but as a true church me personally,

48:08

I don't agree with that position Okay, and again, that's not a popular position But I mean,

48:14

I'm not gonna lie to you that I'm convinced that you know rejecting justification by faith alone is a gospel

48:21

Issue that's that's my perspective. I think that that can be defended biblically And so again and again notice that it will hit at the core differences as well

48:32

Because when one goes to defend Justification by faith alone and we appeal to scripture with the

48:38

Eastern Orthodox or the Roman Catholic then comes the other issue That I don't think is essential in the sense that you could reject this and still be saved

48:46

But it is a related issue and that's the issue of sola scriptura Okay, I do believe that you cannot hold to sola scriptura and be saved.

48:55

Okay. I don't think that's an essential Gospel definitional doctrine, although I think it's immensely important.

49:01

It is so important connected to some of these other issues but if scripture is subjected to the interpretation of a body in that sense though the way they kind of held the tradition as giving kind of a

49:15

Tradition scripture as kind of this dual sources of authority. I think there there are problems Okay, so when you proceed as a

49:22

Protestant to defend justification by faith alone You're not only gonna run into disagreements over the text of Scripture, you're also gonna run into disagreements over the source of authority

49:33

Right because now they're going to be appeals to tradition Well, the church has always taught this yada yada yada yada and now you're in a discussion that encapsulates both scripture the authority of scripture and then tradition the authority of tradition and what is that tradition and now you're gonna get

49:45

Into really the thick of it with regards to church history and all sorts of different things. So so again

49:50

Justification my faith alone is a dividing line issue for me And if you knowingly reject that I would say that that is a rejection of the gospel

49:59

And and again, I say that respectfully, but I do say that seriously. I am strongly I hold to that conviction quite strongly

50:07

Okay But again, I'm always willing to have discussions with people. This does not mean you deny justification my faith alone go away

50:16

I never want to talk to you, right? It's my hope that in future videos where we unpack more of Protestant theology and things like that that Eastern Orthodox folks and Roman Catholic folks who are watching this channel really listen to what we're saying and kind of Hypothetically put yourself in our shoes and see why we're arguing this way and why we find these issues to be so definitional of the gospel and hopefully hopefully you'll see the truth in it and and And put your trust in Christ in Christ alone

50:45

But if you don't and you disagree Here's the benefit at least you understand what you're disagreeing with.

50:53

Okay, and I think that's again very helpful regardless of who you are Okay. All right

51:00

Let's see here. Mm -hmm. I answered that question Okay, okay, okay, let's see here

51:14

Thank you for clarifying that theology of the philosophy Let's see here. Mm -hmm Okay, a lot of a lot of comments, which is fine

51:26

Trying to look for any questions Let's see here Andy asks are there secondary disagreements?

51:37

So, okay. So so you're saying If I believe that there are disagreements over essential doctrine

51:46

Are there disagreements with regards to secondary issues? Yes.

51:52

Yes. Now. I can't give an exhaustive list because again as I said before I'm learning, right?

51:58

I'm not fully familiar with the ins and outs of Eastern Orthodoxy but the use of icons would be something that would that would make

52:07

You know Protestant Christians Scratch out with hives Okay, we'd

52:14

Eastern Orthodox churches are known to use images that are part of their their liturgy and the whole church experience

52:21

Just like with the Catholics. They they don't hold to the icons They kind of have the statues and stuff Protestants don't agree that that's an appropriate thing to have within the context of worship

52:31

Okay, again, that is secondary a secondary issue But but I would say that that's a secondary disagreement.

52:38

Okay Perhaps The authority of tradition being unequal so to spoke so to speak footing with scripture

52:49

Again, I strongly disagree, but I don't think that that in and of itself put someone outside the camp of Christ So if you believe scripture and tradition as a

52:58

Protestant, I don't believe that tradition holds the same authority of scripture And and I'm looking forward to hearing their position on that So I do apologize if there's some

53:06

Eastern Orthodox folks saying, you know, you didn't get it quite, right? I'm learning but I'm just kind of going from my understanding here

53:12

If someone holds to scripture and tradition at the same level I do not think that such a belief put someone outside the camp of Christ.

53:20

Okay, however That can open the door to the rejection of various doctrines that I do think are definitional.

53:26

Okay, so I hope that makes sense All right, moving in moving in Let's see here some funny comments here

53:37

Let's see here. I'm starting. Okay.

53:42

Here's a good question here Slam RN says hey Eli. I'm starting John frames systematic theology by the way you can't see this but my laptop is being elevated by a bunch of books, but only the strongest and Theologically accurate books are worthy to uphold my laptop as a matter of fact amongst my various books that are holding my laptop up is

54:08

John frames systematic theology So it's one of those thick books that really put my laptop right where I need it to be.

54:14

And so so yeah So it's an excellent book an introduction to Christian belief Is an excellent book any suggestions

54:23

I should know at the start any suggestions? Hmm. I mean, are you asking with regards to where to start?

54:30

I mean the book is like this thick See here's the thing with systematic theologies and I think that I suppose this is helpful

54:37

Systematic theologies are not meant Necessarily to be read in chronological order.

54:42

Okay, you could do that and I and I suppose you'll have more cohesiveness there But um systematic theologies

54:47

I would see as a sort of reference work So perhaps, you know look in the table of contents look for a topic that you think catches your interest and just dive in Okay, of course doing so with the

54:56

Bible in your hand checking the references and things like that We check all things in accordance with Scripture And I think that's a very important thing when studying.

55:05

All right, so I hope that's helpful. Just look at the table of contents What are you interested man? Okay, it's a thick book, you know where to start where to start

55:11

You don't always have to start at the beginning there people ask me all the time, you know I'm about to study the Bible man, but I don't know where to start like people have it's like where should

55:18

I start? Well, I mean there are 66 books in the Bible 39 books in the Old Testament 27 books in the

55:23

New Testament There's a lot there and I don't typically tell people to start right there at Genesis Although Genesis is one of my favorite

55:31

Old Testament books. It's definitely not the place. I'll tell a new believer to start in So just because a book is very thick doesn't mean you necessarily to start from the beginning and read towards the end so Read it in accordance with your interest, you know things that are pressing upon your mind.

55:46

There's a lot covered in that book so I think John frame really has a great systematic theology there

55:53

Okay. Now this is the quote. I mean, come on. Come on Benjamin. I don't know who you are

56:00

Really I Forgive you if this is your first time I forgive you, but everyone knows that I am a presuppositional list, right?

56:08

So yes, I am a presuppositional list more specifically. I'm Van Tillion. I follow that specific school of thought

56:15

So I'd be more in line with someone like a Scott Oliphant of Greg Bonson And so again, that's gonna be one of the issues

56:21

I'm gonna be addressing in my book. What are the differences? by the way, I'm also gonna have a An expert in Gordon Clark's philosophy and so I'm gonna have him on to discuss the differences between Van Tills Presuppositionalism and Gordon Clark.

56:40

So when he comes on hopefully in like a couple of weeks. We'll kind of nail down a date I'm really looking forward to that because it's a really interesting conversation discussion between the different methodologies there

56:50

Will unpack that for you in more detail. So stay tuned for that All right

56:58

Let's see here Is Alvin Plantinga a presuppositional list, okay

57:05

Good old Alvin If you folks don't know who

57:10

Alvin Plantinga is he is the a philosopher probably one of the most prominent Christian philosophers

57:17

Alive today. I believe he's retired. He's a professor at Notre Dame brilliant mind and was

57:23

Definitely one of the contributing factors for the revitalization of theism in the Academy So very very heavy -hitting

57:31

Philosopher now, is he a presuppositionalist? Well Gary Habermas seems to think so. I had Gary Habermas on who is not a presuppositionalist.

57:39

He is a an evidentialist But he I think in passing called

57:44

Alvin Plantinga a presuppositionalist and here lies the problem. Okay now I greatly respect dr Habermas which by the way, and I know

57:51

I advertise old old episodes But if you haven't seen the episode when I had dr

57:56

Gary Habermas on totally watch it. It was so interesting because he actually crosses hairs with Greg Bonson He tells of a story where he presented his minimal facts for the resurrection

58:07

To Greg Bonson and kind of talks about their interactions very very interesting discussion, but in passing he called

58:16

Alvin Plantinga a presuppositionalist and here lies the problem and I think dr. Scott Oliphant at Westminster Theological seminary captures the essence of the problem of the terminology presuppositional apologetics the term

58:29

Presuppositional apologetics is too ambiguous because there are a bunch of views that can be incorporated under that nomenclature

58:36

That don't necessarily reflect what van Til was getting at Okay And there you're gonna get into some of the difference he

58:42

Alvin Plantinga was definitely not a presuppositionalist along Vantillion lines and from what

58:48

I understand from folks who have expressed an eyewitness observation of Alvin Plantinga interacting with Greg Bonson because they interacted once or twice

58:59

That it is my understanding that Alvin Plantinga did not really understand what van Til was was getting at some of the implications of van

59:06

Til's views I think in one context it might have been a lecture that I was listening to With Greg Bonson, I believe it was

59:14

Greg Bonson, but I apologize if this is incorrect where Bonson asked Alvin Plantinga, dr.

59:21

Plantinga Plantinga What he thought about Vantillion apologetics a meth methodology and what

59:31

Alvin Plantinga responded with was the problem with van Tillion Presuppositionalism that if what van

59:37

Til is saying is correct, then the unbeliever wouldn't know anything, right? We often say, you know without the Christian God you couldn't know anything, right?

59:44

And so he thought that Van Til's position was that unbelievers don't know anything now if if that account was accurate then

59:53

Then I would say that Alvin Plantinga as brilliant as he was and I greatly respect Alvin Plantinga and I highly recommend his works if you haven't heard of him

01:00:01

He's definitely a high -powered philosopher very respected but with regards to understanding presuppositional apologetics

01:00:08

I don't think he has understood this that aspect of the methodology and this is prevalent With a lot of scholars.

01:00:14

I've heard a William Lane Craig comment on presuppositional ism And it's almost as though these folks haven't even read like a book on van

01:00:21

Till It's I want to think that they have and just disagree But some of the comments that people make by way of criticism is just way off and by people who should know better I think but even that being said

01:00:33

I highly respect. Dr. Craig and I've learned so much from him But um, I have been underwhelmed by many of the criticisms that have been put forth against the presuppositional method

01:00:46

Okay, let's see here There we go Let's see.

01:00:55

How much are the classes that I don't know. Oh, oh, okay Have I ever heard of Darth Dawkins?

01:01:02

the infamous Darth Dawkins Actually, I don't know if he'll ever watch this but because I know he follows the channel, okay

01:01:13

Darth Dawkins is actually a friend of mine Now we haven't met in person he's what we call an internet friend

01:01:21

We we communicate often through private messages and we've spoken with him over the phone

01:01:27

Believe it or not as infamous as he tends to be on various YouTube channels when you talk to him one on one on one

01:01:34

He is the nicest guy okay, I honestly my interaction with him he has been helpful to me just as I've Interacted and asked certain questions and kind of picked his brains on a few thing brains.

01:01:46

He has multiple brains What's up with that as I picked his brain on? Certain issues. I have found it to be immensely helpful and he is my

01:01:54

Let me see Darth Dawkins is my black market resource for Christian apologetics books

01:02:03

He always sends me books other PDFs or something like that. I'm like, oh my goodness. Thank you so much so, um, so yes,

01:02:10

I've heard of Darth Dawkins and I think Not withstanding the negative aspects that have often been associated with his interactions if we can put that aside in terms of simply understanding and Understanding the presuppositional method and the questions that he asks in the way that he debates

01:02:32

I think that he wields the presuppositional methodology Very well and razor -sharp now people who listen to him because of the discussions

01:02:42

They tend to kind of get very argumentative and then it's a dumpster fire. I'm sorry Darth That's usually what happens and maybe

01:02:49

Darth would even agree but And if we take that aspect of the discussions and cast them aside for a moment

01:02:58

I think he is spot -on with the sorts of questions that he presses the atheist with from the presuppositional perspective and When people think that it's just a script that he's following This gives me evidence that the person who says that doesn't know the nature of the argument.

01:03:19

Okay Darth Dawkins has a very unique ability to highlight the core issue and Address it.

01:03:27

Okay, and but a lot of people it's kind of over their head. They don't know or sometimes you they're kind of They know what he's trying to get at but they kind of dodge the question now.

01:03:38

Is that always the case? No. Yes It's true. Darth Dawkins is rough around the edges. There are a lot of people who don't like him

01:03:45

Yes, maybe it's there's not maybe it's the way he presents himself that's definitely Definitely I'm gonna be nice.

01:03:53

Does it give you definitely a possibility? Maybe that it's it's it has a lot to do with it Okay, would

01:03:58

I follow Darth Dawkins tactics? No, and and if I were to I've told him this in in past con

01:04:05

He'd probably laugh out loud that I'm even talking about him right now but but That aside

01:04:11

I do think that if you are if you were to focus on what he's saying Not not the other stuff what he's saying

01:04:19

I think he's spot -on and and there's much to be learned if you can get past some of the the difficulties that come along with Listening to Darth.

01:04:27

I love you, man. I'm so sorry. Okay, so Let's see here.

01:04:33

Mm -hmm Benjamin asked again. Can we call it an argument though? I've never seen it put into premise form.

01:04:39

Yeah Yeah, it's it's it's an argument. You can put it in premises, but you have to understand that The Transcendental argument is a unique kind of argument because you're not

01:04:51

Simply moving from one fact to another fact therefore a conclusion when you're presenting a the transcendental argument

01:04:58

You're actually offering an argument that is putting forth the Christian worldview as the necessary precondition for argument itself

01:05:07

The argument is saying that the Christian worldview needs to be in place and true in order for something like Deductive arguments to even be a thing you see it's the what are the necessary?

01:05:18

Excuse me. What are the necessary precondition for deductive arguments themselves? And so the transcendental argument is an all -encompassing

01:05:26

Argument not kind of the run -of -the -mill traditional arguments that have point one point two conclusion

01:05:31

You can formulate a transcendental argument in a deductive form and that may be helpful

01:05:38

I could uh, you know, I can give you one right now. Okay, for example, here is a transcendental argument in deductive form.

01:05:44

Okay If knowledge is possible Then the Christian worldview is true.

01:05:50

Okay premise one premise two knowledge is possible conclusion Therefore the

01:05:55

Christian worldview is true. Okay, so you can Present it as a deductive argument and the transcendental defense is going to come in defending the first premise

01:06:06

So the first premise is what I would call the transcendental premise So if knowledge is possible then the

01:06:11

Christian worldview is true is just a roundabout way of saying that the pre the net the necessary preconditions for knowledge is the

01:06:18

Truth of the Christian worldview you see and so then I would engage in defending that transcendental premise

01:06:24

In the run of the run -of -the -mill way that I would engage in a you know in the transcendental interaction

01:06:30

Okay, I hope that makes sense. That's it. I'm also Matt yester Also is is much more well -versed in the logistic aspect of the transcendental argument.

01:06:41

He would call the transcendental argument I hope you I'm properly Representing you here Matt. He calls it a bivalent disjunct modus tollens reductio of the contrary.

01:06:49

It's simple It's it's simple. That's right Maybe maybe

01:06:55

Matt can type out type something out That reflects that that might be useful for people listening

01:07:02

I don't know if he's multitasking as a but if you could do that, that might actually be very very helpful. Okay? All right.

01:07:08

Let's see Let's see here Okay, you guys have some great questions

01:07:18

Can I get thumbs up if people are okay if I'm going too long?

01:07:23

I don't want to tire anyone, but if you guys are good, I'll take a couple more questions. So I hope I hope you guys

01:07:29

Are okay Okay Let's see here. Okay The Irenic Pelage like the name

01:07:41

Irenic Pelagian where can a person go to see a clear refutation of Tim Stratton's free -thinking argument that exposes the incoherences of Calvinism and Vis -a -vis its inability to demonstrate its reasonableness.

01:07:55

Thanks. Yes I think a great resource is my two -part episode with the

01:08:02

French Calvinist philosopher Guillaume Bignon Okay, you go back to previous episodes and each episode is two hours long of in -depth interaction with Tim Stratton's views

01:08:13

The views of Braxton Hunter who's over there at Trinity Radio and Layton flowers all three of which are friends

01:08:19

I've spoken with all of them. We have these respectful disagreements kind of an in -house discussion

01:08:25

But I think Guillaume does an excellent job Slicing those perspectives to bits now, of course in Tim Stratton's defense

01:08:35

He just came out with his book which I ordered and in the process of reading I in the process of reading

01:08:41

I just finished the introduction because it's really hard to find a quiet moment But I told

01:08:47

Tim that I'm reading his book and with an open mind trying to see where he's coming from and so hopefully I can get a clarification of his argument

01:08:55

And the uniqueness of his argument and how what Guillaume addresses in those two parts the two -part series that I did with him a while Back how those don't sufficiently answer his argument

01:09:05

So I'm in the process of doing that, but if you want to rewatch those two videos, I think they're very helpful in this regard

01:09:11

Okay Okay, let's see here let's get rid of that here remember man, oh

01:09:20

I skipped a question I'm so sorry in case you don't go back to my question. Let me rephrase it Do you think presuppositional epistemology take some points from internalism and externalism alike to be perfectly honest?

01:09:33

I have not studied in any depth the differences between internalism and externalism

01:09:39

I did watch a helpful video in which those positions were explained But that would be something I'd have to think about okay

01:09:46

That's a that's a good question. And by the way a question that can be included in my book So hopefully I'll after researching that I can kind of give a clear answer as to where I stand

01:09:54

Matt Matt yester Who's in the comments here? He might be able to point someone in the right direction maybe send a link if he has a moment there, but It's all good that that's a good question.

01:10:06

That's something that I would have to look into a little more in depth Okay Kyperion Berean that I Love the internet.

01:10:17

Okay, that's an awesome name the Kyperion Berean Very very nice. Okay. How would you respond to sprawls objection that we can't escape ourselves?

01:10:27

Yeah, well I'd have to read his objection in more in depth if we can't escape ourselves

01:10:35

What are you trying to say you see what I'm saying What point is sprawl making there

01:10:40

I would imagine it's related to some of the epistemological foundations for knowledge and things like that But let's suppose you can't escape yourself.

01:10:49

I would argue that the very concept of the self requires Metaphysical realities that are reflected in the

01:10:57

Christian worldview. So without the Christian worldview one could not have Coherent meaning and definition of what the self is in any objective sense because what we're arguing is that the

01:11:07

Christian Metaphysic and the Christian epistemology that at the the worldview perspective provides a context for one's

01:11:15

Understanding of even the notion of the self and so while in one sense, I can't escape my senses

01:11:20

I don't believe that all knowledge is derived through sensation, right? I believe that there is a necessary precondition for knowledge that is not substantiated through my sensation

01:11:29

But rather there's a transcendental necessity about them that it's that it's demonstrated that by its denial

01:11:35

It must be affirmed implicitly and then of course the job of the apologist is to bring that out throughout the course of the discussion

01:11:40

So, I hope that I hope that makes sense. Okay, good question All right.

01:11:46

I Can't use a mohawk. Thank you There we go, that's something worth noting planting us bulldog

01:11:56

Tim's attempts to transfer problems of rationality on naturalism to Calvinism is unsuccessful in my opinion, and I'm not even a

01:12:04

Calvinist. Yes, I agree Well, I am a Calvinist. But yes, I've actually had

01:12:10

Tim Stratton on my show again highly recommend That that episode you can look at look in the past episodes.

01:12:17

Um, and even hearing him out. I loved him. He's a sharp guy I think he's an excellent apologist, even though we have the different apologetic methodologies

01:12:25

But I wasn't very convinced with the the various points that he brings up in defense of his position and in criticism of the the

01:12:32

Calvinist The Calvinist position. So so yeah, I say that respectfully. But again Tim's a friend.

01:12:39

I respect him and I'm giving him a chance I'm reading his book and hopefully, you know, I can gather some some good information there.

01:12:46

Okay. All right So, let's see here. Got a couple of questions there Remember map

01:12:53

Let's see. Okay. No, it's talking about in there. Let's see here.

01:13:03

Okay, so we have One more question, here we go.

01:13:09

Okay, this will be the final one. Okay, how do you use presuppositional apologetics against other?

01:13:15

Monotheistic faiths. Okay. That's a great question Okay. Now the answer is

01:13:21

It depends, okay, because it depends on which monotheistic faith you're talking about because when we're dealing with Worldview analysis we need to take worldview against worldview, right?

01:13:33

So if the person happens to be a Muslim which is a different monotheistic faith than that of Christianity Okay The internal worldview critique is gonna is not just going to include my criticisms of a unitarian form of monotheism

01:13:51

It's also going to include its system its revelation its appeals to Scripture and how that's inconsistent and we can talk a little bit about those so So it really depends on which monotheistic faith you're talking about again

01:14:03

There is a different route you might go if you're talking with an Orthodox Jew And there's a different route that you would take when you're talking to a

01:14:11

Muslim Okay, remember the presuppositional methodology pits worldview versus worldview

01:14:16

System versus system the presuppositional list defends the Christian worldview as a unit and we do not pick apart

01:14:24

Individual features of a worldview and talk about them in isolation. For example, um if I was critiquing a competing monotheistic faith

01:14:32

I don't simply just take that element monotheism and then critique their monotheism that denies the

01:14:38

Trinity you could do that because one of the necessary preconditions for intelligible experience and knowledge is

01:14:44

This issue this philosophical issue of the problem of the one and the many which I'm not gonna get into it's a very complicated topic and we're coming up towards the end here, but so you could you could critique a

01:14:55

Unitarian monotheism and its inability to provide the necessary preconditions for intelligible experience because of its lack of One and many nests as being equally ultimate and providing a context for intelligible experience.

01:15:09

Okay So you could you could critique it that way, but we always consider systems

01:15:15

Okay, when I'm arguing with the Muslim, I want to look at their system all of the interconnected pieces not

01:15:22

Isolated facts that we can we can look at independent of our broader commitments, right?

01:15:29

and so that's very important because when we argue along those lines, that's where the issues of neutrality in our thinking and Autonomy in our reasoning comes about when we take these things individually and discuss them as though we can discuss them

01:15:43

Independent of our broader systems. So I wouldn't I would use presuppositional method of transcendental argument against a monotheistic faith

01:15:51

Depending on what system that particular monotheism is an instance of okay

01:15:56

So we always want to consider the broader worldview aspect. Okay, so it's gonna it's gonna differ. All right

01:16:02

All right Whoo. Okay. Okay Oh my goodness

01:16:10

In the case, you're wondering you like those are some resources if you want to thank you very much. All right, so that's it for today

01:16:17

I think I'm gonna lose my voice and I don't want that to happen. Okay, so I just want to say

01:16:23

Thank you so much for everyone who asked their question. Thank you so much for listening Thank you so much for expressing to me how much you found the content useful and with regards to my comments to Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, thank you so much for For hearing me.

01:16:40

Okay That's my position as I've explicated in the beginning and That's where I stand.

01:16:47

Okay, if you disagree Cool, that's why we have discussions and disagreements.

01:16:53

I don't hate you. I don't you know, I don't think you're a terrible person but we do have these very very dividing line disagreements that I think are important to To engage in with gentleness and respect, okay, so please remember that when you're doing apologetics online and You are interacting with people with whom you disagree

01:17:16

There's a time and a place for being assertive and there's a time and a place to being more strategic Reaching out in the sense that you're not burning those bridges so that those lines of communication will

01:17:27

Will be open there and you're able to kind of communicate the gospel message Clearly, all right.

01:17:32

Well, that's it for today. Thank you so much I hope you guys share this my videos and share it around use them as teaching tools and things like that I hope that you guys have found this helpful.

01:17:44

Thank you Marcus. I will watch out for those hot -headed Eastern Orthodox folks. I suppose there are some hot -headed reformed folks and Protestant folks as well

01:17:52

Thank you so much guys for your time. It is greatly appreciated. Take care and God bless.

01:17:58

Bye. Bye Oh, and don't forget tomorrow at 4 p .m Hank Hanegraaff will be on to discuss what