Discipline VS Punishment | Outside Eden

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Welcome to Outside Eden, two sinners discovering grace together. Good morning.

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Good morning. So Judith and I have been married for the, if you're a first episode, go back to episode one. I keep saying that, but it's probably good.

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Uh, we've been married 20 years and, uh, four kids and lots of scars. Um, Judith, we're going to kind of jump right into it.

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That's for us. This is our third recording. So we tried to do three in a row just because we've, these are the chapters we read.

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So, um, some of our thoughts are going to bleed over into the last episode as well. But this one is on chapter two, why we don't punish our kids.

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Uh, this chapter was so refreshing. You have to read it.

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Um, I really don't want to steal anything from her. I'm just going to add some additional thoughts, but I promise you will not be disappointed.

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She does a really good job of kind of pulling out the Greek, the difference between punitive punishment and the, uh, how we would understand discipline, really discipling our children's.

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Um, so, uh, really great section there. So let's begin. We shepherd hearts, not just fix behavior.

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Yeah. This is the difference between punishment and discipline. Um, I think going back to really our introduction and going back to the last chapter,

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God is the one who uses the word discipline. He punishes, uh, centers who are not a part of his children.

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They're under his wrath. That's a really good example because, um, discipline has a base of love.

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It has a foundation of love. That's right. Well, and because like,

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I love this because when you think about when you, um, when you love somebody, you want what is best for them. Right.

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So, um, that's what's so, um, shameful, ashamed. I repent, forgive me, but I would often correct my children, punish them because it was best for me.

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And that, again, that was reactive and not corrective in nature. So when we're thinking about our children, we don't want to punish them.

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It's cold. It's distant. Um, it's, it's not real. It's not based upon relationship.

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Right. So the, the different, I think the easy, I love this illustration she uses in there, but it really is the difference between,

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I'm not gonna steal the illustration, so go read it. The difference between, um, I'm reacting to you based upon who you are to me versus I'm reacting based upon what you did.

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Or I'm reacting based on how you just made me feel like going back to chapter one, um, you're annoying me, you're frustrating me, you're embarrassing me.

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Yep. Yeah. So one is retribution. Like you are going to receive that, which is equal to the crime.

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And the other one is love because I want to change your heart. Yeah. Maybe even using the word vengeance for that first one.

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Like, you know what I mean? I mean, all of us as parents have been there, like we're going to, you really put me out by doing this and I'm going to let you know how that feels to also be put out.

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I'm so ashamed. Um, I, I will not say the gender of the child, but one of our children often leaves things in my car and here and there.

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And so I, I took everything that they left in my car and I dumped it in their room and the floor and I walked away and they came and said, who did this?

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And I was like, well, this is what you did to my truck. It was totally not loving, not kind, you know?

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So I'm not, we're not saying these things because we're like, oh, we've totally figured it out. But afterwards you looked at me and you're like, so was that the intended result you're looking for?

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And I was like, not really, but I felt good. Well, even the other day, you know, um, one of our older kids, uh, they told me they were going to do something and I said, all right, you can do this if you promise that you will do this when you're all done.

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And they were like, okay, I'll do it. And then I woke up the next morning and none of it was done. And so I really stopped and was thinking,

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I even talked to you about it, like, okay, um, I don't, I don't feel like just giving a consequence, like, well you, because it did inconvenience me.

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It made, it made my day harder, but I didn't just want to respond, react with a like, well, now you have this consequence.

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I wanted this child to really think, man, when I don't keep my word, this is how it affects other people.

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Um, and so instead of consequences, it was more of a talk and it's not always just going to be a talk, but I, but what

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I'm saying is just getting in the habit of, um, not reacting and instead again, going back to the heart, okay, how can

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I not just make this child not do this again, but how can I make them think and know why they don't want to do it again?

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So that really gets into your, your kind of setting it up for us. The difference between punishment versus consequence, right?

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Um, again, great job in the book, but to add some additional thoughts in there, consequences, this is a great quote, so I'm going to go ahead and quote this.

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So the consequences that we give our children now prepare them to avoid much greater consequences later in life.

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So punishment deals with the here and now here is the crime, here's the punishment, right? So it's very transactional actually when you think about it.

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Uh, that's why consequences and grace go hand in hand for us as Christians. God will only allow consequences that work for our good and his glory.

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Oh, this is so good. So we're thinking about, all right, our children is that they revealed our hearts to us.

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They are struggling to see God and put him as first and worship him and love him, right?

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Because every time we disobey, we're believing the lie of the world, the lie of Satan, the lie of the evil one, and we're ignoring

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God. So God's given us an opportunity to step in and say, all right, so when we do this, when we don't listen to the

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Lord and his kindness and his love and his grace to us, look what happens, right? The consequences of it.

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And you're going to get tired of saying that all day long to ourselves, too. Right, right.

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And I say that because when you do address the heart and again, especially if you're working with toddlers and things like that, you're not always going to say all this because they don't understand it right now.

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They just need to learn to obey because you said, like she said in the previous chapter, you're acting as that front line to show those boundaries and because until they can understand the boundaries of Christ.

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But anyway, but just mimicking the merciful discipline that we receive.

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Yeah. OK, so this is great. I'm going to leave this in here and I'll let you talk about it. So our father says he loves us and he disciplines us.

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Listen to 1 John 4. This is so good. 1 John 4 18. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear for fear has to do with punishment and whoever fears has not been perfect in love.

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Oh, I'm so guilty. Threaten my children to obey because there's consequences if they don't, there's punishment and that's there's a difference between consequence and punishment.

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They're afraid to do something because they don't want the punishment. That's exactly how

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God doesn't shepherd us. As a matter of fact, in verse 17, it says we are no longer under judgment, which means you and I will never face the wrath of God.

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Yet he uses consequences to guide us. And the consequences are more about us understanding what sin does.

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Right. I love how St. Peter chapter one talks about we've been set free by God's grace and he loves us.

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And he said, look up, here's how you live now. And it's like gentleness, meekness, patience, kindness, forgiveness.

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And he goes, but if you're not living like that, you're ineffective and you're unfruitful in what? Not saving ourselves, not removing ourselves from the judgment.

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There is no judgment. You're ineffective and unfruitful in the work of the kingdom of loving and caring and sharing the burdens of others.

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And so, man, so many times, Judith, this has been so helpful for us in the last few years.

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I know in my parenting, when the children do something, I ask them a simple question. I say, hey, listen, what you just did was totally based on a selfishness.

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Let me ask you this question. Are you happy right now? And they always say no, because they're not. And then I'm like, is anyone else happy?

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Because at times we can lay ourselves down and it's not really fun for us, but we're doing it because we love people and it's for their benefit.

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So I ask them, is anyone else benefited from this? No. OK, where did that come from? So instead of that me enacting punishment upon them,

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I'm pointing out the consequences. Like, look, look what your sin caused for us in our experience.

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That's the consequence of it. And at times we actually have to enact the consequence. Right. Like if you don't give them a consequence and you just say, why did you do that?

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Well, because I'm a sinner. And then they walk off. Well, yeah, they know the right answer, but they're not feeling the consequence.

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That's different. We want them to feel the consequence because that's what leads them to realize, yeah, what

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I did is not beneficial to me or anyone else. And those are like she says, purposeful, purposeful pain.

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You know, the consequences are purposeful. They're not just reactionary. Well, you did this. Now you do this because I'm irritated with you.

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It's it's. And, you know, so that's going to be different based on what happened and what they did.

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But I just feel like the more and more I apply. God's relationship with me and how he disciplines me and how he loves me and his gentleness, the more and I realize that that's the same way

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I'm to be parenting my children with gentleness, it just gets to the heart of the matter so much more quickly and the children respond to it better.

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I will have to say, though, when you're parenting and focusing on on gentleness and mercy of the father and purposeful pain, which doesn't always look like offense, you know, payment, offense, payment, it's it's easy to feel like other people are looking at you and judging your parenting.

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If something takes place in front of somebody else and it's something you've been working on with your child or something you've been noticing with your child, you're going to respond to it differently based on what that child's going through and their heart.

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And so I think it's really important to remind yourself that you don't answer to the other people that are watching you.

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You answer to Christ. And I say that because I feel like times when

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I have regretted how I disciplined my kids, it it was when we were in front of people and it was because I, again, didn't want to look like a pushover or whatever.

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But we also have to understand God gave us those children. We know what we've been working with them on all week or whatever, all month.

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And so our our priority is to be faithful to that child with Christ in mind and not someone else's standards or ways that they would do it.

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Well, and I think the opposite is true as well. We had an issue with one of our children where they wouldn't acknowledge adults.

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And so we would have parents tell us, oh, it's OK. And we're like, actually, it's it's not OK. Can you let us work through this, please?

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Because it became a legitimate issue where they wouldn't look at him. They were mean.

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They were just mean. And so we couldn't let it go. And I know a lot of people were like, oh, it's fine.

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It's just a stage. No, it's actually rebellion. He's old enough or she or he is old enough to know because we had been working with them on it.

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That's right. And so, again, it's that backstory of, well, you know, we know what's going on in the heart issue because we've been dealing with it.

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So even though some people might think we're overreacting, we have to be faithful to what we know is cultivating his heart right now.

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Right. And I tried not to. We ended up going to battle on this one. And I did not do it with a visitor or someone that was new to him or her.

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I was like, I pulled my side, said, hey, I really need you to help me here. I need to work through like this with them. Would you allow that to happen?

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And so I was circumstances really do matter. And when you pick your battles matter. It's a whole nother episode coming. All right,

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Judith and Justin. Just call me Justin. What's up, Jay? So I want to go back to the theology behind what we're doing is so helpful here.

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Looking at how God loves and treats us is so fueling to help us go,

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OK, I am this channeling of the gospel to my children. All right. This is our confession.

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It's based off of several verses like Romans 8 and 2 Corinthians chapter 12. Our confession on the providence of God, chapter 5, point one.

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Point five, it says this and listen how it sets it up. So this is just think about parenting in this way.

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This is God parenting us. The perfectly wise, righteous and gracious God often allows his own children for a time to experience a variety of temptations and the sinfulness of their own hearts.

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So he we're talking about consequences here because he says it. You feel it.

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You give into it. He does this to chastise them for their former sins and to make them aware of the hidden strength of the corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts so that they may be humbled.

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So our God takes our failings and doesn't punish us for them.

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He says he allows us to experience the consequences of them. Now, listen to this. He does this to lead them to a closer and more consistent dependence on him.

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That's exactly what we're doing when our children fail and they experience the consequences of it.

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We as wise, hopefully righteous and gracious parents will want to mimic our

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God to our children and point them to say, listen, this is why you want to depend on him.

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Look at what happens when you ignored his truth, ignored his love. Look at what you did.

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So next time, where are we going to go? We're going to depend upon the truth of God. And this is where the implanting of the word of God at home, at dinner tables, at breakfast, at church, the word of God becomes the center here.

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Going back to the Proverbs, train up a child, we're implanting that truth in them. But again, we have to go, well, look how

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God has dealt with us. Let's deal with our children in the same way. Being that image of God for our children.

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Yeah, that's right. All right. So a couple of our thoughts here. What does love discipline look like?

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I kind of gave the theory of it in 5 .5. Ultimately, discipline seeks a changed heart, not a change response of reaction.

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So we want our children to acknowledge what caused it. Now listen, when they're little, like one and two, what does that look like,

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Judith? Like what do you do when it's like a one -year -old and they're screaming and throwing a tantrum? Well, as hard as it sounds, depending, especially if you're in public, you need to try to ask some questions at first, hold them and figure out why they, what might be causing them to do that.

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Right, right. Are they, are they overly tired because you guys have been out a lot? Are they hungry? Have you been running errands and you didn't realize they're probably really hungry, things like that.

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But, you know, I think just in my case, what I would do a lot is just set them aside if we're home, you know, being able to just set them aside and kind of let them, once I know all their needs have been met, just let them calm down.

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But it's all in a loving way, you know, and I didn't always do that.

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I would get really frustrated and it would be more in a, well, you're just going to sit here until you're done. This isn't that way.

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This is a, okay, I love you. Nothing's wrong. So I'm just going to let you relax in here and I'll come check on you in a little bit type of thing.

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And also, you know, you can, if they're screaming out of anger, you know, You have to deal with that.

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Yeah. And that's where I think you've got to step away and like, okay, Lord, am

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I reacting? Help me think about, I need to shepherd my child here. But here's the thing.

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If a child will not listen to the voice of the parent, that means they're not going to listen to other people as well.

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So training a child, because it literally says children should obey their parents. It does not mean obey means that they're listening to the voice of the child because they understand.

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So yeah, there are times if a child will not control themselves and they are now becoming belligerent, you have to think about, okay, they, they need to understand when mom and dad say, okay, we're not going to do that anymore.

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And they do it anyways. There has to be a consequence and they need to equate, okay, when I don't listen to the point, the voice of my parents, this is the consequence different from punishment, right?

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We want to lead them to love and appreciate what we say, not be afraid. Like, well, if I don't do that, this, my

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Xbox is going away or the iPads going away. Right, right. And it's like, and she does mention this in the book, when you're thinking about punishment versus discipline, it can, it can often feel like the only options are to punish or ignore.

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And instead of realizing, let's peel back some of these layers and look at what's happening. So, yeah, just not being reactionary and thinking more through it.

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Yeah, but it is. I mean, the thing is, it's important that we teach our children when they're younger, how to listen to us because it goes into later because they get out of control.

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And when you say, hey, listen, you need to quiet down for a moment. You're not asking them to change, like be happy, but they need to hear you and go, okay,

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I need to stop crying. I need to listen. I need to quiet down because then that allows you. But if they can't learn that.

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So we'll get into that a little bit later. What does that look like? Yeah. And also this, like, like we said, this is not a quick fix thing because as you can hear us discussing it, there's a lot of unless it's this or but if it's that, you know, so each each time something's happening, it's going to be different.

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And it just depends on what you know about your child and what has happened recently and what they're struggling with and all those things matter.

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So just but I feel like it'll be encouraging to understand this isn't going to be a quick fix. It's not like, you know, we're going to be able to tell you these are the two steps you take when your child's during a tantrum.

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Yeah, it's a little more complicated than that. It is. And listen, there are some practical things here and there that you can do.

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That's not really what the point of this podcast is. We're kind of getting at the heart of it. And there's the last section in there.

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I think it's helpful. Discipline seeks a changed relationship. So their relationship to God is that they right now is that they don't really know him or why he matters.

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And so discipline is always pointing them back to who he is and why this matters. When they're younger, that's going to be evident in how you treat them.

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This is the last illustration I'll give. But even with our own children and their tone, I mean, every family deals with this tone, right?

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How they say something. And we always say as parents, do we talk to you this way? Do we be are we belittling you and putting you down?

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No. OK, well, why do you think we don't do that? Well, because you love us. Great. How does that make you feel?

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That makes me feel loved. OK, well, how do you think your sibling feels right now? Right. Versus don't talk like that.

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Yeah. Oh, man, this is so bad. And they still have a little bit of this habit is like, oh, I'm sorry. And then they kind of move on.

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It's like we were looking for the repent of sorry. I don't want them. I want them to understand where did that come from?

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And look at the benefits and not the benefits of that. Right. But just as an example, though, that's super tiring.

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It is so much easier to be like, stop, quit being ugly, you know, than it is to bring their attention to their motivations and the sin in their own heart that is causing them to respond that way.

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And even even when we're talking about toddlers and tantrums, it might take us a while to discern, oh, this is the third time this week this has happened.

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I'm I'm being played like start out being gentle. You thought you were thought you were catering to their their special needs that were brought on by A, B or C.

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And then you realize, oh, no, this is turned into them manipulating me. So it's just that it's just the patience of walking through all of these things with them and just asking

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God to show you their heart. And when they're old enough, asking them questions that help reveal their heart to you and them and themselves.

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That's good. That's really good suggestion I have for you. If you can, if there's another family in our church or in your church or listening to it'd be healthy to get together, read the first two chapters and then have a meal, let the kids play in the backyard.

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I don't know. Let's do whatever. And go through the questions in the book. She has questions for both chapters. They're great.

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And you don't have to do this alone. The Bible says bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.

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That means encourage one another, share each other's struggles. Sometimes it's just healthy to get together and say, like, I'm so exhausted.

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And don't try and correct that parent. Like, well, here are the tips that I have for you. Right. Hear them out. Pray for them.

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Love on them. Remind them of the mission. Remind them of what we're doing. This is not a tips and share time.

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You're like, well, if you would have done this with your child, they wouldn't have done that. No one wants to hear that. But what they want to hear is God loves you.

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Let's keep focused. Let's keep doing this. Remember the mission. It's long term. We're here for the long game. We're not here for behavioral modification.

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So and we have struggles, too. Like sometimes that's all you need to hear is. Yeah, because when you're just in your house, you and your kids constantly all week long, it's really easy to start feeling

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I'm doing something wrong or my kids are just out of control. And there's no going back like it's

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I don't know how to fix this. As my father, who I love desperately, who was with the Lord, used to say, John, if it was easy, everybody would do it.

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Right. This is not easy. And the reason why it's not easy is that we're fighting a real enemy.

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Yes. And their hearts, first of all, their hearts want what their hearts want. And it's evil. Secondly, we have an enemy outside of us who is trying to manipulate us, control us.

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And number three, it really matters in what we're doing for their hope and for God's glory. Thank you for listening.

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Any other thoughts? No, that's it. All right, guys, a little bit longer, but hopefully it was helpful. Get the book, support this author.