We Read Your Comments--Now It's Time to Respond w/ Joshua Pillows

Presuppositional Apologetics and the YouTube Comments Section

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host Eli Ayala, and today I have a special guest with me, he's been on the show before, my good friend Joshua Pillows. And what we're going to be doing in this episode is we're going to be interacting with the YouTube comments section, okay?

That wonderful and beautiful place where people come to play peacefully and nicely and respectfully, and so we're gonna interact with some of the comments, questions, objections to presuppositionalism, transcendental argument, these sorts of things.

I have a list of questions that we're going to be or comments and objections, things like this, that we're gonna walk through, and obviously I can't go through all of them. And when we don't go through all of them it's not because we are running away from your super cool argument, it's just that I'm a human being, this is why I actually invited a guest, I just don't have the time to go through every single objection, that much of which I've heard a million times, and really don't faze me one bit because they're just not good questions, and those questions could be answered if you read a book or two by Bonson or listen to a lecture or something like that.

So I just wanted to get that out there, okay? So there you go. With that said, I would like to introduce my good friend Joshua Pillows to the show once more. Why don't you say hello to everyone and tell the folks a little bit about yourself.

Hey, well thank you for having me on, Eli. Sort of last minute, right? Well, it was last minute, but no, I'm Josh. I'm a presuppositionalist, obviously. I was taught by Bonson. I was saved in 2016, and a year later, it was actually through apologia, speaking of you being partners with him, Jeff Durbin mentioned Bonson's name.

I've always had an affinity towards defending the faith, even before I was saved. You know, my arguments weren't the best, obviously. So when I heard of Bonson, I started voraciously going through his material, his tapes, books, his articles, and so what's it been now?

Eight years? Yeah, eight years this year, 2025, that I've been going through it as if I was a student in his classes, just tens of thousands of typed words, like a zillion articles, and now I got a second book coming out.

You might have seen my name on the first book, The Objective Proof for Christianity, which was released last year. High praise for it, obviously not because of me. It's Bonson and Butler's words, and I only contributed my contributions in the footnotes in the appendix, so all glory goes to God for that.

This next book is, if you don't know, is going to be Annotations on the Great Debate with Dr. Stein back in 1985. It'll be more or less the same format as the previous book, and my commentary, via obviously the full transcript, my commentary on everything that's going on about it and fleshing it out more, and then the appendix will be a mock scenario of the debate, should Stein have actually done his homework and studied the Transcendental Argument, because that whole debate was just a disservice to the argument Bonson was giving.

He had to keep laboring the same points. Stein was not ready. He just didn't even know what he was getting himself into, so it was the same stuff. It didn't have its full justice. So the appendix is an opening statement of Bonson again, but I would say 90 of that material is from his material, so it's as if he's alive today and he's just writing a book on the subject.

So it's his opening statement, a question and answer time, and then a rebuttal period with Bonson again. So it's going to be awesome. I think February 11th is when it'll be released, the 40th anniversary of the debate, so that'll be coming out in less than a month from the time this is being recorded.

So yeah, that's my story. That's awesome. I should also mention that I'm a musician, so I'm an organist at a Lutheran Church. I'm basically a minister of music there, and it's been great. I consider Lutherans our Reformed cousins, so to speak.

You know, two and a half points of tulip voguettes. I'm like, okay, I'll take that. Sure, why not? So yeah, my main trade is being a musician, organist, pianist in the.

Church, and then I teach as well. Excellent. Well thank you for that. Yeah, I'm really excited about that new book that provides the commentary there on that debate between Dr. Bonson and Gordon Stein.

The Limits of Atheistic Worldview Thinking

What I find prevalent in a lot of atheistic thinking is that many of them lack the capacity, in my estimation, to think at a worldview level. So they don't think broad enough, right? Oftentimes they'll say, you know, you Christians, you presuppositionalists will say, well we can't account for, you know, the uniformity of nature, and we can't account for science, but I don't believe in your God and I do science.

You know, or you say that I don't believe in...if I don't believe in your God, I don't have a grounding for logic. But I don't believe in your God and I use logic, as though that is a meaningful interaction with what we're actually arguing for.

As a matter of fact, this is precisely the point that Gordon Stein brought up, right? I don't presuppose your God, yet I do logic just fine. And that's to completely miss the point, because again, in my estimation, they're not thinking broadly enough.

They're taking this kind of isolated item and saying, well I use this. Yeah, well that's not the issue. That's not...we're not denying as Christians that you use logic or that you, you know, can do science and things like that.

That's not an issue that addresses really the transcendental challenge that we're bringing to the.

Unbeliever. What do you think of that? Yeah, I mean, it's an accounting for the very logic and reasoning and consciousness and so forth that you're using. That's one of the standard fair criticisms and I don't take that.

It's never with vitriol, really. It really does come from charity, from at least the opponents I've engaged in who don't understand. And I think it's one of those points that's easier to get across, even for a layman.

That obviously, you know, presuppositionalists aren't stupid enough to say you don't know anything. It's just how do you justify the fact that on your worldview, on what you believe, how do you explain how you know everything?

Not whether or not you know anything, but how do you explain the foundation for you knowing anything or uniformity of nature or whatever?

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The Transcendental Argument, Circularity, and the Bible

Right. Yeah, that's well put. Now, I want to highlight this first book that you mentioned. You have a second book coming out. In this book here, I highly recommend, let me see here, The Objective Proof for Christianity, the Presuppositionalism of Cornelius Van Til and Greg Bonson.

I remember some years back, Joshua, I asked you, hey, you know, what set of lectures should I really focus on when studying Greg Bonson? And you said, well, there's a lot of great material out there, but the heart of the presuppositional argumentation is the transcendental argument.

So you would do well, I don't know if you remember saying this to me, but you told me you would do well by just listening to Dr. Bonson's lectures on transcendental arguments. And so I listened to those things over the years repeatedly, and it's interesting that he speaks so clearly in those lectures that he answers many of the objections that some atheists in the comments section or on various YouTube channels and things like that, they bring up as though it's some great insight, and Dr. Bonson has addressed those, and other presuppositionalists have addressed those a million times.

They don't pose a challenge, we don't shake in our boots when we hear these objections pop up, and so it is really, in my experience, a lack of doing their homework or parroting what some other atheistic influencer has said with respect to presuppositional apologetics, and so yeah, that happens often, and I suppose Christians can do the same thing as well, right, when we just assert by what standard, by the impossibility of the contrary, all appropriate phrases, but the presuppositionalist has to kind of go in a little more detail and explain what we mean by those things.

So perhaps we can do that a little bit, Josh, as we move through some of the comments here. So I have a list of comments that I collected. I believe there is a total of 20 comments, but there are sub areas of each of the comments that are numbered, so we'll be addressing, if we get through all of them, about 46 points.

20 comments, but each comment has like a multiplicity of points, and we'll try to get through all of them, okay? I don't know if we will, but I'll try, and of course, you know, if we don't get through all of them, I'll get more comments in the video, you didn't answer my question, you know?

So life's tough, wear a helmet, that's my advice, right? I mean, you're not gonna get everything you want. So let's begin to go through this list. So the first comment I picked is in the context of how the Christian world view provides the necessary preconditions for knowledge, and that we assert as Christians that given the truth of the Christian worldview, the Christian metaphysical picture, given the truth of the Christian epistemology and ethic and so forth, we have a foundation for knowledge.

And so the person commented, they said, well why can't the true explanation for why something exists rather than nothing be something that we are unaware of, something unintuitive, and something our brains are incapable of reasoning to?

In other words, I don't believe your Christian worldview provides those preconditions, but maybe there's some worldview out there, okay? Now before you answer that, is this a new objection to a presuppositionalist?

No, right? Decades, yeah. Yeah, it's been around for decades. Is this something that no.

Presuppositionalist has ever addressed? No, no. I mean, at the lay level, a majority they wouldn't have, but the smaller part for sure with academia coming after presuppositionalism, that is more of an academic observation, and very, very much credible for sure.

But I would say yes, it obviously has been addressed, especially in written literature you can find it, but not as much as a mainstream conversation with the apologetic. It's also addressed in here. Who would have thought, man?

Man, I mean, I wrote, compiled the book, and I.

Completely forgot, man. I just, you know. It's addressed specifically in here, like there's a section where it is addressed. So just to throw that out there, I don't mean to be sarcastic, I apologize, but it's here.

Folks can check it out. There you go. And I don't make any money when someone, when I promote a book, I don't make money off these books. Like, there's, you know, people think I'm in this for the money and that I am driving a Lamborghini because I do Christian apologetics on YouTube, which again is an amazing claim.

But nevertheless, let's explore that. Why is it not the case? When someone says, why can't the true explanation for why something exists rather than nothing be something that we are unaware of, something unintuitive, and something our brains are incapable of reasoning to, what does that implicitly assume, Josh?

What do you think that implicitly assumes with respect to their worldview.

As they're asking this question? Yeah, what they're not recognizing is that everyone approaches anything, at least the foundational assumptions and considerations from their particular viewpoint. No one's neutral.

You're not an objective bystander because you're a subjective fallible being, which means you're limited. So when they ask that question, they are, of course, consistently coming from their atheistic perspective.

And to answer your question, that assumes skepticism, universal skepticism, which is a correct observation from the atheist perspective, because again, we're fallible and extremely limited compared to the entire universe.

So, you know, perhaps we'll never get to the answers, but there could be another explanation. So it's a consistent claim and inquiry from their perspective that obviously should be addressed, but it's a presupposition that the Christian doesn't hold to, universal skepticism.

And so if they want to answer that question, you can answer it in two ways, which we can get to after I make these points, but it's coming from their bias against our bias, because bias is inescapable.

And so at that point, that's where you go from that conversation. You have to first and foremost point that out. What I've.

Noticed also is that when someone says, why can't the true explanation for why something exists rather than nothing be something that we are unaware of, something unintuitive, or something our brains are incapable of reasoning to, it implicitly presupposes, or he's implicitly admitting, that the worldview he currently holds does not provide the preconditions for intelligibility and knowledge.

In other words, there might be, what if there is some hypothetical worldview out there, undiscovered, that we are unaware of? Well, if you are arguing that, the problem is that that assumes that the worldview you are currently using lacks the foundations for knowledge and intelligible experience, which actually is self-vitiating and undercuts your own perspective, and actually demonstrates the very thing we're trying to assert.

Namely, that without the Christian worldview, right, you lack a worldview foundation to make sense out of those very things or to justify them, okay? And of course, the Christian is arguing that we do have, you know, the foundation for knowledge, intelligible experience, and so forth.

So I think that's an interesting kind of implicit admission. Now, of course, they're going to ask, and I think rightfully so, well, if the Christian worldview provides the necessary preconditions for knowledge and intelligible experience, how do we know that?

How do we know that? And how would you respond to that, Josh?

Actually, interesting. I just finished the appendix last night. I sent it to Gary pretty late, and it's one of the questions in the Q &A that Dr. Stein hypothetically asks, so it's actually fresh in my mind.

There's this issue of what's known as the problem of criterion, and in simple terms, it's you can come to a conclusion either through the armchair method, you know, we all know this statue or picture where a philosopher's in his chair and he's philosophizing, and you can also come to conclusions empirically through your experience, what you see, your sense with your five senses.

And the problem with the first one is if you just take the armchair approach and come to a conclusion, you may make an argument, come to a conclusion in your head, in your armchair, that conclusion is purely subjective, all right?

It's just your opinion, so who cares? How do you apply that objectively to the external world? And if you base your conclusion off of empirical observation, your experience, as I've said, is completely limited and fallible.

You could be mistaken, and there are other issues too. So what they're assuming there with presuppositionalism is that it's purely analytic. It's purely we philosophized it in our heads, and wow, we made it make sense.

It's awesome. We should definitely promulgate it around the world. It's what it is, but it's purely in our head, and so that's a rightful observation. Well, if it's in your head, how much credit should we give the argument?

But the problem is it's not completely in our head. The foundation and the source for our argument is an external thing. It's something tangible in the world that we can verify with, namely the Bible, the book we've had for all of history.

Well, wait a minute, Josh. Wait a minute. Aren't you I like I think about this. But aren't you saying that the Bible's true because the Bible's true, or the Bible's true because my Bible told me?

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Well, again, two more things. The first one is, again, they are coming at it with their biases, their worldview. How do you know that you can't just take it for granted? So they're not acknowledging the Christian position.

The second point is when they point out or accuse the argument, the presuppositionalist of arguing circularly, they are not taking into account the metaphysical aspect. We don't say the Bible is true because it's true, or it says it's true or whatever.

The metaphysical aspect is the Bible comes from an infallible being, God, therefore it cannot be mistaken. And if this being is the ultimate infallible being and the source of all truth and all logic, and therefore the source of all fallacies, metaphysically speaking, on its own terms, on its own authority, it's infallibly true.

And that, of course, is still a type of circle, but it's not a begging of the question because a begging of the question would be a purely linear consideration in terms of giving an argument and, well, wait a minute, the conclusion is in the premise here and so forth.

But the circularity here takes into account the metaphysical. God exists. He's infallible. He's perfect. So his word, likewise, as an extension of him, is infallible and perfect. That's the Christian position.

And, of course, the atheist is bound to say, well, I don't believe that. You're taking it for granted. And to which you say, well, you're taking some of your beliefs for granted. And we're, again, arguing over worldviews.

So which one, on its own terms, makes sense of intelligibility? And so, yeah, the twofold method, there are the two points are, A, we don't just come up with this in our head because if we did, then, yeah, it would just be purely conceptual.

And, B, the argument isn't circular because the source is external. It's a posteriori, if you want to say it. Or if we can verify the claims that it's infallible because, metaphysically speaking, this God exists and is infallible and so is infallible.

Now, and it's interesting, too, because what you said, it's not making kind of a linear line of argumentation. This is the distinction between what we call direct argumentation and indirect argumentation.

So when someone says that the transcendental argument or the presuppositional argument is a circular argument, that is not possible given the nature of the argument. Circular argumentation is a feature of direct argumentation.

But if anyone's familiar with the writings of Van Til, Dr. Bonson, and others, the transcendental argument is an indirect argument. So what you're doing is you're accusing an indirect argument of having a feature that is only prevalent in a direct argument.

Now, you can formulate the transcendental argument in a direct fashion. I've done that. You know, I've offered the argument, if knowledge is possible, the Christian world use true, knowledge is possible, therefore the Christian world use true.

That does not follow. The Bible is true because the Bible is true. The conclusion of my argument is not restated in the premise, and so to keep calling it a circular argument is already...that's just not true.

Now, and I said this a million times, and I'm sure you would agree with this, Josh, there is a difference between the premise of an argument and the presupposition of an argument. That's right, so there's nothing in my argument that the conclusion is stated in the premise.

Now, I presuppose that the Christian world view is in fact the necessary precondition for knowledge, but that's not fallaciously stated in one of the premises. So what I have here is, if knowledge is possible, the Christian world use true, knowledge is possible, therefore the Christian world use true, and the first premise is defended transcendentally.

Now, I've been famously asked the question, and maybe we can talk about this, but what is the inference for the truth of the first premise? And to that I respond, it is not inferred in a regular linear fashion in which I offer another deductive argument to demonstrate its truth.

It is a presupposition. But then how do you justify that presupposition, which is your first premise? We justify it indirectly. So I have a direct argument in which there is a premise that is defended indirectly, and that indirect defense comes in the form of a transcendental argument.

So there is nothing within that that is circular. I'm defending and justifying a presupposition. Now, Joshua, I've been told, well, if you're trying to justify a presupposition, then it is no longer a presupposition.

So what are your thoughts on the claim that you cannot justify a presupposition, otherwise it wouldn't be a.

Presupposition? How would you respond to that? The criticism assumes that there is a definition for that term, and the definition for that term typically falls in line with if it's a presupposition, then by definition it's unjustifiable.

It's an axiom. It's a foundational belief that can't be justified, but it's a foundational belief by which we can justify all of our other beliefs, kind of like foundationalism. The problem with that is it assumes we cannot come up with our own definitions for words in certain contexts.

We're not asking to rewrite the dictionary or add the definition, but the transcendentalist can say in this context, a presupposition can be justified, but only in a certain sense. And so if you want to engage in the reasoning here of my argument, of course, just like worldviews, you have to assume what I'm saying is true.

You have to accept my terms, rather, is a better way of putting it. Accept my terms in this context of the argument by which we can reach the conclusion. You talk about inferences by which we can reach that conclusion.

Accept this definition. There's nothing illegitimate about that or anything that precludes us from doing that. So yeah, it's just a matter of accepting our definition and entertaining it and saying, okay, well, you're not supposed to justify presuppositions.

So tell me, from your viewpoint, how do you justify presuppositions if you don't follow the definition? And then you go from there.

Well, I think the interesting thing is to say that you can't justify a presupposition is simply just to deny the possibility of a transcendental argument, because transcendental arguments are justifying foundational claims, right?

We're dealing with paradigms with entire worldviews. So to say that you can't justify a presupposition by definition is simply to say transcendental arguments are impossible, which you'd need a defense for that.

You don't just get to assert transcendental arguments aren't arguments. They have a history in philosophy. They are actual arguments. And I like what you said before, we don't—and I'm sure Dr. Bonson would probably lay it out this way—he'd say that you can justify a presupposition, but you don't justify them in the garden variety way because of the nature of the claim that we're making.

So when we justify our ultimate presupposition, we are not doing so by appealing to something more fundamental than that presupposition, okay? Rather, we are appealing to its own transcendental necessity.

Deny the presupposition, and you lose the foundation for intelligible experience, knowledge, science, and all that jazz, okay? Now, the unbeliever is going to be like, well, wait a minute, okay? I reject that presupposition, and I get along just fine.

And that's fair. I'm not saying that—obviously, you're not going to accept the presupposition, but it's at that point where we need to then engage in the worldview analysis. If my argument is that the Christian worldview is the necessary precondition for knowledge, there's a couple of things that have to happen here.

I have to show, given the Christian metaphysical picture, given the Christian's epistemological picture and ethical picture, given our worldview, that which is required for knowledge to be possible is in fact accounted for, okay?

But at the same time, the unbeliever, because of the nature of a transcendental argument, doesn't get to sit back and say, well, I don't accept that. Yes, and the way you challenge my first premise, right?

I do my work. I have to show, you know, the triune God, you know, accounts for unity and plurality. He accounts for immaterial conceptual laws of logic. He accounts for these things, right? We can provide a justification for that.

But in attacking the truth of my first premise, you have to lay out your hand as well, which interestingly enough, atheists and skeptics are not very reticent to do. They don't want to show their hand, or they lack sometimes the capacity to think broadly enough on a worldview level to even understand what the nature of the argument is, and that's why you get these kind of silly, the Bible's true because the Bible's true, you just assume...it's like, you're not even getting the nature of the argument, okay?

So it's really difficult to kind of move on from there. Now, you can disagree with the justification that I provided, right? So I can say unity and plurality is one of the necessary preconditions for knowledge.

Christianity accounts for that in the doctrine of the Trinity, okay? Induction, uniformity of nature, is a necessary precondition for knowledge. The Christian worldview provides for that, given God's creation and providence in the world.

That'd be Genesis 8 .22, Ephesians 1 .11b, you know, seed time and harvest will continue, and God works all things according to the counsel of his will, so they're both hand-in-hand on the.

Christian worldview. That's right. You can deny that, but to say we haven't offered a justification is just false. We've offered a justification, you just disagree with the justification, which is perfectly permissible.

But then you gotta interact then. If you don't think the Christian worldview provides those, okay, and I've shown you how we provide the justification, interact with the actual justification, and then offer your own justification, since those are preconditions for knowledge.

Maybe you don't think they're preconditions for knowledge. Maybe you don't have to account for unity and plurality. Maybe you don't have to account for uniformity. Okay, explain why that's the case. Or maybe you agree that you have to account and provide a justification for those things, and your worldview doesn't.

Well, account for those things, you see? So that's what's going on here that I think a lot of folks are missing.

Yeah, in the book, that book, there's a—towards the end of that lecture or seminar, Bonson quotes Van Til—I don't remember which one, but Van Til basically says, let the unbeliever step into the mic, right?

Bonson would say that. How does he account? And Van Til says verbatim, let him try and figure it all out so that he can, quote, see the consequences. And Bonson tells the class in that seminar, underline that sentence, see the consequences.

So as you say, he can reject what we're saying, but now you give an account, and you will, as Van Til rightly said, see the consequences. And the equivalent of that from his protege, Bonson, he would say, the mic, he'll hang himself with the rope at some point.

He'll be able to do it. So that's the consequence of it. So, okay, reject my position. It's absurd. Now make my day. How do you explain? And you will see the consequences. It's going to happen. It's inescapable because he's fallible.

He's finite and limited. He can't explain anything ultimately, definitively, absolutely, objectively. It's purely subjective. And of course, with differing religious views, they have their own religious texts and so forth.

You would deal with that differently. But in terms of mainstream unbelief, that's what you would see. You will.

See the consequences. Right. All right. Well, there's more that can be said there, but obviously we have a lot to get through. So let's move on to another aspect of that very comment. The commenter said, does Yahweh know why he exists?

If Yahweh thinks he exists as a necessity, does he know why that necessity exists? If Yahweh's necessity is explained by himself, isn't that circular and thus a fallacy? How would you interact with that?

No, because, again, with circles, there are metaphysical aspects, as we talked about with the Bible. God's self-existence to society is not an argument. And so therefore, it wouldn't be as circular a circle in an argument, like question begging.

It's a basic metaphysical truth that he exists necessarily. If you want to if he's asking, he asked why he exists necessarily. I mean, we could even incorporate our own human reasoning here and say that something must exist necessarily.

And God presumably would say the same thing. There must be something that exists. But at the end of the day, it really just goes back to John 8, 58, Exodus 3, 14. I am who I am. I exist and I must exist and I am God and I cannot not exist.

That's the nature of who I am. I'm different from you. Again, it's a creator-creature distinction. You're applying the creaturely logic and saying, it's circular, but the creator is on a different level.

It doesn't necessarily apply to him.

So self-existence... Well, wait a minute, Josh. Once you say it doesn't apply to him, then the skeptic is going to cry special pleading. That's special pleading. How would you interact with that?

Well, again, that's two points or one and a half points. I'm always on these two points because I've studied these for years, so I've gotten really acute with these points. But it's obviously good. The first point would be it's not special pleading by the very nature of who God is.

And the second point is the reason he's saying that is he's, again, incorporating his presuppositions and the fact that it is the creature only. We exist. We don't know if there's a God exists. So there's only one plane.

It's human reasoning, and that's all we can employ. But again, that does not assume the Christian worldview is true for the sake of the argument. There are two planes. There's the lower and the higher.

And so therefore, not everything on the creaturely plane applies to the potter. Whatever applies to the clay doesn't always apply to the potter. So it's not special pleading. It definitely would be if we said God is a man like we are or a demigod, you know, some sort of half man, half God, then maybe as well.

But it just it's a fallacy. He's the one committing the fallacy, which is the irony, because he's not assuming the two planes of Christianity. It's just our plane. And that's it. Well, I don't subscribe to your presupposition.

And so remember, Mr. Atheist, you have to assume my position and then critique it internally. Otherwise, the only alternative you have is to critique it externally. And guess what? That's a straw man fallacy.

So he's the one committing the fallacy here. And if he refuses to stand on our position, he's just going to go and commit another fallacy in the process. So and that's a testament to the Bible. Where is the wise?

Where's the debater.

Of this age? God has made foolish the wisdom of this world. Now, when you say that he is presupposing that there's only one plane and not the two planes within the Christian worldview, it exemplifies what you just expressed, but it also demonstrates the fact that the person making that claim, oh, it's special pleading to say that God is on a different...it's actually, you're actually expressing the fact that you are not neutral.

You're presupposing a metaphysical picture that is in conflict with the Christian you're interacting with. Maybe you're right, Mr. Unbeliever, but you're not neutral. And that's what we've been talking about.

Neutrality is impossible. To even suggest that we can bring God down from his plane to ours and talk to him and talk about him in the same categories as human beings is already to express your non-neutral stance with respect to Christianity, okay?

And so neutrality is a myth, and of course that is an external standard, an external critique rather, in which at that point, you know, they're not going to really get that far, because, I mean, external critiques when you're dealing with worldviews is not permissible at all, philosophically.

So, all right. So yes, I would say, and Yahweh doesn't engage in circularity either, because we do not believe as Christians that God thinks and reasons in sequential or, you know, linear fashion, all right?

Remember, this is blurring the line of the creator-creature distinction. God knows all things. God doesn't come to beliefs. He knows all things, so he's not reasoning in a linear fashion in the same way that time-bound creatures do so.

Now, to this point, Josh, I was asked, but how could you possibly know such a thing about God? Well, here again, let's talk about this again. If Christianity is true, right, you don't have to accept it, but if it's true, what is also true?

Oh yes, that God has revealed himself. So I am in a position within the Christian worldview to know certain things about him. I'm not just speculating this about him. If Christianity is true, he's told us stuff, and we can know about God based on the stuff he's told us and based upon what we can logically deduce from the stuff that he's told us.

So this isn't difficult or, you know, challenging for the Christian. Yeah, Mr. Skeptic, you reject the Christian position, cool, but from within the Christian perspective, it makes perfect sense that I can say certain things about God and be.

In a perfectly good position to know those things. Yeah. Yeah, you have to keep laboring neutrality, because no one thinks about that. No Christian apologist thinks about that. No, your average atheist doesn't think about that.

Let's just come to the table, let's see what the facts are. You come out of your trench, I'll come out of my trench. No man's land. These are the facts. Let's hash them out as objectively as we can. It's impossible.

It's not the case. You're biased, the atheist is biased. We can't be neutral. Neutrality just makes you an atheist. You know, you gave up the atheist that has his biases. How do you be neutral? You can't.

And so it's impossible. You have to keep laboring to the atheist. Your biases are coming out again. Remember, you're not being neutral. You have to just ingrain it in their head. And once it is, then most of the time, the argument or the discourse, the dialogue goes much better.

It flows better because they actually understand it. But because people don't know that, you have to keep laboring the point. And I'm not saying you're stupid if you don't know that. We just don't hear it.

We all assume we're objective. We're not. We all have our biases, and it's inescapable. So that's why you have to assume I'm right as a Christian for the sake of the argument. And then I have to assume you're right as an atheist for the sake of an argument.