The Quran or the Bible?, Part 2

Muhammad, the Canon Process, and the Charge of Contradiction

Words spoken to the Christians of Muhammad's day. And we know exactly what they possessed in the day that Muhammad said those words, if you believe Muhammad wrote those things. And so who said it was inspired?

Interestingly enough, Muhammad did. Now, we're then told that there was a canon process. In other words, the Bible did not come down with a golden index attached to it. There had been a canon process in the Old Testament, there was a canon process in the New Testament as well.

But there was a canon process for the Quran too. Have you heard of Ibn Khan? Have you heard of Abdullah ibn Masud? Have you heard of the fact they had different readings.

In their Quran?

Listen to the debate. I'm looking forward to when it comes out. Listen to the debate that we have when we go into these things more fully. I simply say to you, if you use the same standards, these arguments will not carry any weight.

I would also ask all of you to consider the difference between the Quran, which is written at one time with one author, and a multi-authored book that is written over decades or even over centuries as you have in the Old Testament, and the fact the Quran is considerably smaller, it's only about 57 the size of the New Testament, even less that of the Old Testament, so you have much less material to deal with,.

And it's much younger. It's easy to say, oh look,.

We know exactly who did this, that, and the other thing. It's a much younger and smaller work. I would say it's much more interesting to recognize the unity that you find in a book like the New Testament, which is written by multiple authors, over multiple years, from multiple locations, in multiple different situations.

You better have unity in a book that's written by one guy,.

At one time.

You better have unity in a situation like that. Now, we've had a shot taken at poor John Calvin. Let me just for a moment point out the fact that John Calvin, and I don't know if Adnan is aware of this, but John Calvin did prosecute Miguel Cervantes.

Cervantes had been condemned by the Inquisition, escaped the night before he was to be burned, and went straight to Geneva, tried to get Calvin in trouble in Geneva, tried to get Calvin imprisoned and burned, and that didn't work out too well for him, obviously, and Calvin, as the chief pastor of the church, under the governmental situation at that time, had to prosecute Cervantes.

He did, and then he and the ministers asked that he not be burned alive, that he be executed first and then burned, if that was what they had to do, because that's what the law said, but you might want to sort of figure that in.

Now, do I think that the church should have been involved in government? No, I do not, not in that sense. And in fact, I would have been endangered in Geneva, because I am a Baptist, and the Baptists, the Anabaptists especially, were driven out of Geneva.

But that means that I have to look at him and analyze him in the context he was in, and let me tell you something. It was just pointed out how gracious, for example, very often I hear people say, well, remember the Christians of Najran came and had a dialogue with Muhammad, and we don't know whether that really happened or not, it's only Islamic sources.

The Christian sources don't verify that, but let's say it happened,.

And they were allowed to leave in peace,.

Yes, they were.

Within a few decades,.

They were removed from their homes and kicked out of their homes and driven into exile. That little part sort of gets skipped over, because folks, we can have this debate here, this debate could not happen in that.

Keep that in mind when you consider these types of things. But I simply, you know, there are things in the Bible.

You may not like,.

According to Leviticus. I don't like Sura 98 -6, which says Jews and Christians are the worst of all creatures. The worst of all creatures.

I don't like that.

But you have to believe it as a Muslim. What do you think that means?

I have many brothers and sisters.

Being persecuted by Islamic majorities around the world today.

I don't find Christians.

Who take seriously the Bible imprisoning Muslims around the world today.

I'm sorry?

Sura 98 -6.

Yeah, Sura 98 -6.

Now, let me just summarize,.

After giving that,.

Let me have five extra seconds.

Who gave you,.

What were you given? From my perspective,.

Adnan said,.

Islam establishes law and that leads to prosperity. The mere existence of law, my friends, cannot change your heart,.

And you know that.

Everyone in this room knows that. What I'm saying to you is, what God has done in Jesus Christ provides the means of changing the hearts of people in any societal situation. And that's what can bring peace and harmony amongst men and women.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, James. Okay, the verse quoted by James is Chapter 98, Verse 6,.

And it reads,.

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the people of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. So, where does the Quran say that the Christians and Jews are the worst of creatures?

It simply says, those who disbelieved.

Among the people of Scriptures,.

Wait, wait, wait. Those who disbelieved among the people of Scriptures and polytheists, those who disbelieved, the ones who disbelieved, the ones who disbelieved are the ones being addressed here. Those who believed, there's no problem.

So, the Christians believe in hellfire and paradise, don't they?

They do.

So, I'm a disbeliever. I don't believe in the crucifixion. I don't believe in the Bible. I don't believe in Christian religion. Am I a disbeliever? Yes, I am. And if I die in this state, where do I go?

To hellfire. So, where's the difference? Where's the difference?

So, please,.

We do make points about the Quran and our religion. Try your best to be accurate. Mistakes can be made. Of course, I do appreciate that. And I can make mistakes. But did I make mistakes when I talked about contradictions in the Bible and all those problems?

No, I didn't. Let me give you some contradictions in the Bible. Now, James has brought this topic up. Let's see what contradictions actually mean. Contradictions mean this. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

God did, according to 2 Samuel 24 -1. According to 1 Chronicles 21 -1, it was Satan who did that.

In that count,.

How many fighting men were found in Israel? According to 2 Samuel 24 -9, 800 ,000 men. According to 1 Chronicles 21 -5, 1 ,100 ,000 men. This is what you call a contradiction. How many fighting men were found in Judah?

500 ,000 according to 2 Samuel 24 -9. According to 1 Chronicles 21 -5, 470 ,000. God sent His prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine? 7 according to 2 Samuel 24 -13. 3 according to 1 Chronicles 21 -12.

And there are 101 contradictions I have in front of me. Mathematical contradictions. This cannot be from God. There are many more. I'll simply need an hour to go through all of them. There are many more in the Bible.

Quite a contradiction like that in the Quran. Quran doesn't have any contradictions. Just like James quoted from chapter 19, verse 6 to suggest that Christians and Jews are the worst of creatures. Just like that, maybe we can find some contradictions singular to that point.

So, ladies and gentlemen, the point is that crucifixion doesn't have solutions to your problems. God's religion, God's revealed word does. The Bible, as I was telling you earlier, is not from God. The biblical canon has no history or it doesn't share any history to the history of the Quran.

It has no similarity whatsoever. The Quran was established to be the word of God and when it was uttered from the mouth of the Prophet, those who were hearing the Quran knew this is the Quran. There were no debates between Ubay ibn Ka 'b and Abdullah ibn Mas 'ud and Abu Musa al-Ashari and other narrators of the Quran about the contents of the Quran.

There was no dispute. I challenge James to point one report which suggests that there was a debate about the contents of the Quran that a certain verse was added later on by someone else. I'll make it simple for James today.

I challenge all the Christian scholarship on the planet to produce one verse, one word from this book which doesn't come from Muhammad, which cannot be traced back to Muhammad. Listen to my challenge carefully and pay attention to it.

One word from this book, the Quran in Arabic language which doesn't come from Muhammad peace be upon him.

Okay?

I ask James to put the same challenge to me on the Bible.

I dare him.

Note, ladies and gentlemen, note, when he comes back, he will never put that challenge to me. He won't.

I know that.

And if he does, he loses the debate. He loses the debate. Because I will find so many passages in the Bible, in the New Testament, which don't actually come even from the authors, let alone from God. There are passages in the Gospel of John, an entire chunk which was added later on.

The Gospel of John chapter 7 verse 53 to 8 -11, the entire chunk was added later on by someone else and James knows about it. The Gospel of Mark chapter 20 verse 9 -20, the entire chunk added later on.

1 John 5 -7 added later on and now thrown away from the Bible. But you still find the Gospel of John chapter 7 -53 -8 -11 in the Bible today as the Word of God. The Christians are still reading it as the Word of God.

Why?

Why are the Christians still reading the Gospel of Mark chapter 20 verse 9 -20? Chapter 16 verse 9 -20. Why are they still reading this passage or this chunk as the Word of God while they know it is not from Mark, let alone from God Himself?

These things cannot be ignored, ladies and gentlemen. I'm not here to spread hatred or express hatred. I love Christians. Believe you me, ladies and gentlemen, I have nothing against Christians. This is not my hatred speaking.

This is my concern and my compassion and my love for Christians speaking. I really care about the people. I want you to know the truth so that you can see from your own eyes that the solution we are proposing is indeed from God.

The Qur 'an is not corrupted. The Qur 'an was never changed. The Qur 'an we have today, every single word of it comes from Muhammad. Listen to my words very carefully. Every single word of the Qur 'an can be traced back to the Prophet Muhammad, confirmed by non-Muslim scholars, non-Muslim authorities, such as Angelika Neuwirth, Montgomery Watt, who was a Christian from the University of Edinburgh, and many more, many more.

So the point is, if the book is from God, and it definitely contains information which could not have been known by a man living in the middle of the 7th century Arabian desert, then it cannot be from Him.

It is divine revelation. And if that is the case, that's where the solution is. And when we do apply these solutions to our problems, we come to realize that we have harmony and peace, which we don't find in the Christian history, unfortunately.

So, when we go back to our presentation, we will see that the Christians have to say. A Christian who went to Jerusalem in the 9th century, and he saw peace there which he had never seen before. He said that if you were to leave your luggage in one place, and depart, and come back, you would find your luggage unmolested.

Because of the law of Islam. Then Patriarch Theodosius, the Christian Patriarch of the city of Jerusalem. This is what he had to say in the year, age 69 CE. The Saracens, i .e. the Muslims, show us great goodwill.

They allow us to build our churches and to observe our own customs without hindrance. James asks me, can we have this debate in Mecca? No, you can't. You know why? Because Mecca is a place of worship.

You can have this debate in Jeddah if you want. You can have this debate in Dubai. Did you know there were debates in Dubai? Why don't you talk about Dubai, Egypt, Marrakesh, or Pakistan? I just had debates in Pakistan.

I know people who had debates in Dubai. Mecca is a place of worship. And only the Muslims are allowed there. You know why? Even some Muslims are not allowed there. Every year, millions of Muslims apply in order for them to go to Mecca for pilgrimage.

Their visas get refused. You know why? Because there's not enough space in Mecca to take all of them. So imagine if we allowed Christians and Jews with their cameras and their holiday luggage to go to Mecca and enjoy a holiday in Mecca.

No, it's not going to be possible. In the Muslim world, ladies and gentlemen, in our history, we had debates taking place in the 9th century in Baghdad where Christians, Jews, and atheists, and agnostics, and all kinds of people were debating each other.

We have testimonies written by Christians. Sidney H. Griffith is a scholar. And he has written a book titled Church Under the Mosque. In this book, and an article written by him for Cambridge History of Christianity, he states that there were debates taking place in Baghdad in the 9th century.

There were debates in the Prophet's mosque. There were debates all over the Muslim world in the Muslim history. You show me a place apart from Mecca, because Mecca is a place of worship. You simply can't go there and have debates in the mosque while people are trying to worship.

So, Mecca is an exception. The rest of the Muslim world is open to you to go and debate and do what you like. Thank you very much for listening. Maybe we can come and stand there in the middle and have a crossfire there.

Cross-Examination on Hadith, Tafsir, and Quranic Preservation

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, now we will have a crossfire between myself and James. And this is probably one of the most important parts of the debate where we both get to ask questions. So, James, do you want to go first or should I go first?

For five minutes, James will ask you questions and I will respond.

We can keep the same order with the notes.

Okay.

Okay, real quickly.

In the Jannah Eternity, Hadith number 3104, it reads, O you Muslim people, avoid copying Mus 'haq's recitations of this man. By Allah, when I accepted Islam, he was but an annoyance and a disbelieving man.

And he was saved from the Tawbah. And it was regarding this that Abdullah bin Mas 'ud said, O people of Al-Araq, keep the Mus 'haqs that you have with you and conceal them. How would that not fit the challenge that you gave me, where you said that there was no disagreement amongst these men concerning the text?

Show me one authentic report where Abdullah bin Mas 'ud, the man you are referring to, actually contested the contents of the Qur 'an.

So would you accept this as a sahih hadith?

I don't know. But here, in this report, he's not contesting the contents.

So why would you think that he would be telling people to keep the Mus 'haqs that he's given them and conceal them in light of Uthman's burnings of the other companions?

Very quickly, when Uthman gathered all the companions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and he discussed this point, this issue of people reciting the Qur 'an in a different fashion, not the contents of the Qur 'an, the way they were reciting the Qur 'an, there were tribal differences in the language which were facilitated just before the standardization of the text, and Uthman got his companions together and he asked them for their opinion.

They said, OK, let's put the Qur 'an in one dialect, the Qurayshi dialect, which is very clear in Sahih al-Bukhari, and I'm sure you're aware of the report. And he told Zayd bin Thabit, who was a young man at the time, who learned the Qur 'an directly from the Prophet in the final year of the Prophet, to put down the Qur 'an in the Qurayshi dialect.

And it was done in that fashion. Now, Abdullah bin Mas 'ud was one of the elders, and he had learned 70 chapters of the Qur 'an out of the 114 we know today. He had learned 70 of those from the Prophet directly.

And his contention was purely about position. His view was that he should have been consulted before that young man, Zayd. And when Zayd was in the womb, or maybe in the loins of his disbelieving father, I was learning the Qur 'an from the Prophet.

So there's nothing about the contents of the Qur 'an. There is a dispute about his status and his position. So his view was that he should have been chosen over Zayd. You know, Zayd bin Thabit was a young man.

Very, very quickly.

Are you familiar with the early Tafsir literature that actually lists numerous Rasim differences attributable to bin Mas 'ud? Because you seem to be saying none of that information actually exists. Are you familiar with those sources?

Okay, just like you have Apocrypha in Christianity. I am familiar with those sources. You have a lot of Apocryphal documents attributed to Jesus Christ, for example. There are so many different Gospels which are very neat.

There is no doubt about that. The earliest Gospels we do find are the four Gospels, and then we have another document called the Gospel of Thomas, which some scholars assert is as early as the Gospel of Mark.

Well, it's a point debated, and James doesn't agree with that. But likewise, we have documents, or we have reports attributed to the Prophet and his companions, which are simple lies and fabrications.

People fabricated information on a massive scale, just like they did about Jesus Christ in the first three centuries. So, we have a system of determining what may be true and what may not be true, and most of those reports are known to be fabricated.

Do you think that Ezekiel was a prophet?

I don't know. I can't say. I don't know who the prophet and who's not.

Okay, but how about Jeremiah?

As I said, I can't. I mean, when we look at their writings, if anything that conforms to the Qur 'an and is not observed, for example, what we find in the Book of Samuel. Is it 2 Samuel?

You're familiar with the narration of when the Torah was brought into Muhammad's presence, and he got up and he had the Torah placed upon a cushion, and he said, I believe this is the truth. Do you find that to be something relevant to defining the truth?

Absolutely, and he never said that I believe in every single word. Because the Qur 'an, very clearly chapter 79 verse 2 states that the books of the Jews have been tempered with, they have been changed, they have been altered.

So, this is a very clearly established point in our literature. So, when he says I believe in what's there in the book, that doesn't mean that he believes in all of it. Okay, in Arabic language, you don't actually consider exceptions.

You consider the mass, the norm. For example, we have an example like this in the Qur 'an, where Iblis is considered to be one of the Malaik. For example, that we asked angels to bow to Adam, and all of them bowed except Iblis.

Now, we know for a fact that Iblis was not one of the angels, but he was addressed as one of the angels because he was part of the crowd. Likewise, we have this issue in Arabic language, when people talk about general things, they ignore the exceptions.

Okay, it's my time now. Okay, thank you. Thank you for that. So, James, my question stands, again, that if the book of the Qur 'an is man-made, which in my view it is, then how can you have solutions?

Well, obviously, we view the canon completely differently, and I honestly would recommend numerous works of biblical scholarship to you to help you to understand the actual process. But I think you're comparing apples and oranges.

You're comparing a single-authored book that is very small and relatively late with works that were written by multiple authors at multiple times. And the Lord Jesus himself recognized the canon process in the Old Testament and verified that God had been a part of it.

How can that not be the paradigm that I should use in the New Testament?

Okay, I don't see where Jesus actually said that every single word in the Old Testament is accurate and must be followed. He seemed to refer to them all.

Well, I have to respond, where did he never correct the Old Testament text?

In fact, there are misquotes in the New Testament.

Well, where did Jesus ever say, you have heard it read, but that is incorrect, you shouldn't have read this?

Is the Old Testament misquoted in the New Testament?

Not only is it misquoted, you have quotations from the Greek Septuagint.

How can one word of God misquote another word of God?

I just said it's not a misquotation.

You have multiple streams of transmission of the Old Testament text. Some of the Masoretic text, some of the Greek Septuagint, some of the Aramaic. And every time you have a citation, we've been able to find.

It was common to make that accusation before we discovered these other sources. But there was a source that was being used.

How could it be otherwise?

If these people are trying to reach the Jews, if I was trying to reach you, and I came up to you with some completely fabricated translation of the Quran, would I expect you to find that impressive?

No.

So how could the Christians, I'm rhetorically answering the question, how could the Christians misquote the Old Testament while they're trying to reach the Jews? When the Jews know that they're going to be doing it.

Well, this is a big debate. There are misquotes in the New Testament. Of course, it's another debate altogether, which we can have another time. The point here is, again, James, when was the first time when these four Gospels were mentioned together by a Christian writer?

Well, that depends on how you understand the four Gospels and how they're identified. I mean, there are sources before Tutankhamen that quote from all four Gospels. But the idea of the collation of them, that took time.

But they also quote from other sources, right?

They can.

Yes, so that doesn't actually imply that the Gospels were all taken to be one canon. My point is, it was in the year

Remember, there weren't any fax machines back then. I mean, things had to be transmitted over time. You might have a church that only has one Gospel and three letters of Paul because they're in Spain.

And then you have a church in Egypt that doesn't have those but has something different because it takes time. We live in a digital age. That was not a digital age. You had to get on a boat and go across oceans.

That's a fair point. Now, we have two situations. We have one community which has one book, which you call a smaller book. You would admit that, right? Yes, absolutely. It's a far smaller book than the Bible.

And that's not a good point. That actually goes against the Bible because the way the Bible has been preserved, the reason why the history is so messy and there are so many varied readings and so many canon debates is because of the size of the Bible because it's so huge.

The reason why God chose the Qur 'an to be so concise and so small is for it to be preserved effectively and which it was, in my opinion. So, to the point

I want to come back to that.

Okay, sure.

We may not have time.

Sure.

Okay, very good. You can come back.

No, no, no.

Well, it just seems to me.

It just seems to me.

In Surah 5, let's talk about the Qur 'an here. In Surah 5, 44 -47, Allah sends down the Torah to Moses.

Yes.

And then he sends Jesus who confirms the Torah and he gives him the Injeel.

Yes.

And then Muhammad comes and he's given the Qur 'an which is a guardian over the preceding revelations. So you have a chain. Moses Torah, Jesus Gospel. So, in light of what you just said, you were just saying, man, the problem with the Bible is it's so big.

But certainly in the days of Muhammad, he knew that it was big.

That's a very good point. At the same time, when the Qur 'an mentions Torah, it doesn't say the old is true. And when the Qur 'an mentions Injeel, it doesn't mean the new is true. The Qur 'an doesn't even acknowledge the fact that there are four Gospels.

It simply says Injeel, one Gospel, one good news which was given to Jesus with Jesus preached. So, the Qur 'an when it says it's a guardian, it's a corrector. It's a confirmer of what was authentic.

I would challenge you to show me Muhammad having that meeting back then, but that's another issue.

Okay.

So, one of the things we forgot, I'm sorry, was we'd like to have some kind of closing statement, summary statement at some point. So, we need to know exactly how long we're going to have.

Okay, two minutes.

We need to know exactly how long we're going to have a Q &A so we can have a closing statement at the end. So, we sort of forgot about it.

Thank you.

Q&A on Mark 16, Paradise, the Trinity, and the Quran as Criterion

Okay, ladies and gentlemen.

Thanks for listening. We'll come to the Q &A session. We'll take three questions. We'll go alternate speakers, obviously. So, please keep your questions specific, as brief as possible. Obviously, it is addressed to either our speaker.

Please do mention in that question. We'll start with the first round of questions. We are running short of time, so we do not take too many questions. So, please keep them short.

What is our time?

Do you want to finish the Q &A session?

Is that good?

Yes.

Three questions, three minutes each answer. So, one hand up there, two, three. We'll take three questions first. So, one hand.

Hi, my name is Dr. Saqib, and I'm a Muslim. I'm working in Ireland. Thanks for coming here. I know from my knowledge that one solution that the Quran doesn't offer and Bible does offer is in Gospel of Mark, Chapter 16.

All right? I'm a doctor working on oncology. There are lots of sick people. And it's mentioned there, a sign of the real believers, that when they will lay their hand on the sick, they'll be healed. So, my question from you is what I'm doing in a Christian country, all right?

And a single person good enough to lay their hand on the sick, they'll be healed. So, I invite any of the real believers to come and do this and speak a part for us. And we, Muslim, will leave the country.

Okay.

I'm not sure if we referred to Mark, Chapter 16. You're probably aware of the fact.

I'm sorry?

Chapter 16, verse 18.

Well, you're probably aware of the fact that verses 9 through 20 are a later edition. And I've written entire books on this subject. I have not mentioned John 7 through 11. Well aware of that. Discussed these things.

I'm very glad that the modern editions of the New Testament discuss these things. I wish there was a similar type of Quran that would discuss the variances in the Sa 'adah Palimpsest and Surah 2 or the Fajr Palimpsest.

There is not yet a critical edition of the Quran. I think it's important for us to know what our texts were. But outside of Mark, Chapter 16, there are texts that talk about God healing people in accordance with His will.

And we pray that God would heal people. We pray that God would do it even supernaturally. But there are times, in the Apostle Paul's life, for example, there was a man very dear to him named Paphroditus.

And he said, I am so thankful that God did not allow Paphroditus to die or I wouldn't have had such grief. Well, here's an apostle.

He had actually miraculously healed people.

But he couldn't heal Paphroditus.

Why?

Because when we talk about the power of God, it's always according to the will of God. And you see, when I pray for someone, if I as a Christian am not aligned with the will of God, if I am only concerned about my well-being, if I'm not concerned about others, if I'm not concerned about being like Jesus, then I am self-willed.

When I suffer, when I'm changed to conform to the image of Christ, my will is to conform to the image of God. And so when I pray, there is really a coalescence between God's will and my will. So I pray, God, your will be done.

I do pray that God would heal people supernaturally. We have people in our church that I have seen. But you know what? It wasn't an easy thing. We had a lady in our church. She had an autoimmune disease.

For years, we did not see her in our fellowship. She's there regularly now. Now, the medicines, does God abuse that? I think God uses means. But the fact of the matter is, God has not said to us, all you have to do is command me, and I will do what you tell me to do.

That's not what praying in accordance with the will of God means. When we say, when Jesus said, speak to this mountain, and it will be cast into the sea, what does he also say? In accordance with the will of God.

And so it's not some blanket thing that says, well, there's going to be this type of thing. Maybe in Mark chapter 16, if it's the one that's included with drinking poisons and so on and so forth, they need to realize that verses 9 through 20 are a later edition.

And that's not something that's new to Christian scholarship. It's very frequently presented as if it is. And it's not. And we didn't get into that in London, that particular path. I think we may have mentioned it.

But if you want more information on that, I've written an entire book on that particular subject.

It's not published anymore.

This chapter is not published anymore in the books.

Oh, no.

But it's published in a note. Is there anybody with an NASV, ESV, any modern translation, beginning at verse 9, there will be a note that says, these verses are not found in the oldest manuscripts of the New Testament.

And my Greek New Testament has them double-bracketed off and gives you the evidence. Same thing with 753 .311. That one isn't even found until Codex D, Beze Kenbergensis, in the 5th century. So we have many copies of the New Testament that predate its first appearance.

Sorry.

We need to get you a bell or something.

I'm encouraged as a follower of Jesus to read all of the prophets and to take them seriously. And I was delighted to find, when I read the Koran, it seemed to tell me the same thing. Should we not, as all peoples, be reading these prophets as found in the scriptures, guarded by even the Jews, those things that the followers of Jesus and Christians couldn't have altered because they were across a larger span and guarded by the Jews.