The Laborers' Podcast- The Holy Spirit part 2

Welcome to the laborers podcast. We are thankful that you are joining us tonight. Would you stay with us?

Engage and join the conversation as we talk about the

Holy Spirit. Once again, welcome to the laborers podcast.

We're thankful. We're thrilled that you join us. You support us. We really appreciate it. The comment lines are open.

We would love to hear from you, even if you just say hello. We'd love to hear that. If you have any questions, we'd love to try to answer your questions, comments, critiques.

We're open to that as well. But we're just thankful that you're with us. We want to glorify God and magnify Christ and just learn from each other as we talk about the truths of God's word together.

I'm thankful for these brothers. And if they will give me just a moment before we get started,

I wanted to say something really quickly about these guys. And it's kind of related to something going on in my life going up pretty quickly.

But I want to say this about them. A couple weekends ago, I was going through a pretty difficult situation.

And I asked these guys to pray for me when those things come up.

And they are faithful brothers to pray for me. And I get texts.

I get calls. And I'm going to call them out. Brother Big John, hey, my wife and I can come over.

We just live right down the road. I'm so thankful for these guys. Claude in Tennessee says, have you got everything that you need?

I'm so grateful for these brothers. And all the other ones saying, we're praying for you.

Is there anything we can do? I'm so thankful for these guys and their spirit and their attitude. And it's not just about when things are going difficult.

It's about ministry as well. And that's where so many of us really appreciate encouragement is in the ministry.

These guys have families. These guys are pastors and preachers. Some of them are also in school.

They're balancing all these things. And yet they are willing to reach out and take care of each other.

Brothers who are at a distance. I remember a conversation I had with Pastor John.

It feels like it's been several years ago now when we barely knew each other. And I go up to Jonathan.

He doesn't really know me that well, but I was like, Jonathan, I have this vision. And I don't remember the exact words that he says, but in essence,

Pastor John says, hey, I really like that. I want to help. I want to be on board.

And we've not fulfilled that vision yet. But Pastor John, as a pastor, encouraged me with that vision, said,

I will do what I can to help. And look, we're still here together. We've not fulfilled that vision yet, but we're getting there.

And he's a pastor. He has a family. He has his other jobs that he does.

And yet he is encouraging to others. And Claude with the podcast ministry, always willing to help with media, with graphics.

He's always willing to help. And the other guys, Andy, when he had his sermon audio, he's like, hey,

I appreciate what you guys are doing. I'm thankful to be here. Let me help you with the sermon audio. Let me put it on sermon audio.

And I really appreciate that these guys are yielding to the spirit and these guys are encouraging to me and to each other.

And I'm thankful for the I'm praising the Lord for the people that that are in their midst, that they are serving because all these guys have the spirit.

I think that all pastors should have, and I'm bragging on them and I'm commending them to to the world and to their communities because I really appreciate these guys in my efforts to try to reach out and network, to try to work together, to try to get the word of God out, to try to work in things like the fight against abortion.

So many times I get a cold shoulder and it's discouraging. But I'm telling you what, these guys really emulate the spirit of Christ and the spirit of encouragement.

And it would be lovely to see every pastor that I meet, every minister, every

Christian that I meet to emulate the example that these guys show.

And I just I'm thankful for them, each and every one of them. And so I want I wanted to start off with that and say

I'm thankful for them. And with that, how are you guys doing? We've got real talk about John, Happy Calvinist, Here I Stand Theology podcast,

Pastor John, Vertical Life, Andy by his grace, and Tyler with bread of the word. You guys doing okay?

Yes, sir. Good. Yeah, I started to think through this because I came up.

And for a large chunk of my adult life was dispensationalism. And I have now while I don't hold to that anymore,

I certainly have no issues with people that do. My mentor that trained me is and we have no problem with it because well, we haven't had the conversation, but I'm sure he'd have no problem because he understands

I'm my own man. He's his own man. And sometimes this is one of those issues. It's things like dispensationalism, covenantalism, their philosophies of history, their understanding the overall scope of history as we believe scripture to lay it out.

And so but within dispensationalism, one of the tenets of it is the idea of the different periods of time and things like that.

And so I started thinking through this. I was like, you know, am I letting that lens frame the way

I see the spirits work? And so what I decided to do is handle this subject the same way

I would anything else. What can I say with certainty from scripture and let the rest be what it is?

And so I started thinking about it. And things that we can say with certainty is that there seem to be no direct statements in scripture in terms of a comprehensive look at the spirits full scale of work in both the

Old Testament and New Testament. We get what God has revealed to us, but it's not an all -encompassing and exhaustive look at the spirits work.

So we need to understand that. I think we do get far more revelation in the New Testament than the

Old, but it's certainly not exhaustive. So what I would say is that while it may appear that the spirit is operating differently in one testament versus the other, we need to keep in mind that the spirit, since he is

God, cannot change. And so there seems to be... In Numbers 27 -18, they talk about, take

Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man whom is the spirit. Judges 3 -10 talks about the spirit of the

Lord coming upon him and judging Israel. There's a lot of these different statements. But you compare that to John 14 where Christ talks about,

I'm going to send you the comforter. He's going to be with you. The world cannot receive him.

And then so we want to come to a conclusion about the spirits work that we need to be cautious and remember that we need to understand that less clear would need to be interpreted with more clear.

And so in reference to the spirits work, we need to not break the scripture up into chunks.

Take it as a unified whole. So what we know clearly, he's the agent of regeneration.

And to be consistent with this, we must recognize the Old Testament saints, just like New Testament saints, had to be born again.

That's one of the errors in thinking I've come to realize that I used to have in studying this.

I used to think Old Testament saints were somehow saved, but they didn't have a spirit or weren't saved like we were.

But Christ is clear. You must be born again. The natural man that is an Adam cannot exercise faith and repentance.

He must have his heart changed. So the spirit indwells every believer in both

Testaments. So to sort of keep this from being too long,

I want to kind of bottom line this so we can toss it off to some other men here. I think what

I've come to view this, and I would love to see if someone has a better way of putting it, but it seems to me that the acts that the spirit empowered people to do in the

Old Testament and in the New might have looked different. Differently at times, based on where we were in redemptive history.

But ultimately, the spirit's goals, the spirit's role hasn't changed.

It's the same God, the same spirit of God, performing the same ultimate goals in terms of conviction of sin, regenerating people, all these things.

But I think the reason we think it looks differently is because how it's revealed. The Old Testament was written by different authors than the

New Testament, so you get different points of emphasis and things like that. So I think what it really comes down to, and I'll end my opening statement here with this, when

David confesses sin, when David repents of sin and acts in faith, he's only doing so because he's been regenerated and indwelled by the spirit of God.

So I don't think we can say that the spirit didn't indwell believers in the Old Testament.

And of course, when you look at the New Testament, you see some different things going on. So I'm still sort of struggling through this and walking through this.

That's why some of what I said here has been a little disjointed, but I'm starting to think that we do ourselves a disservice if we just simply hold to, well, the spirit was different in the

Old Testament than the New. Well, are we sure? So I'll just sort of end it there. If I could add two things there, going to the

Old Testament. First, I want to bring up Ezekiel 1 chapter 4.

Andy did a great job. I'm not saying he didn't. He brought some great points in here that everything we see in the

Old Testament, all of these acts of God could only have been perceived rightly by the

Holy Spirit. When they did keep the law, it could only have been by the Holy Spirit. And Ezekiel chapter 1 conveniently, by God's providence, was part of the annual readings in the synagogues on the day of Pentecost.

And in verse 4 of chapter 1, it says, I looked and I saw a windy storm approaching from the north and a huge cloud with flashing fire glowing brightly all around with the color of gleaming amber from within the fire.

So on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, all these Jews would have gone to the synagogues and they'd heard this text read out loud.

And then later that day, that extravagant display of the

Holy Spirit coming on the apostles was put right in front of them.

That was promised in the book of Ezekiel. This is something that God was preparing ages before.

This is something that he promised. This is something that he was alluding to in Ezekiel, that centuries before he is laying that groundwork that there's going to come a day where you're going to see this.

And you will praise God for it. You will see the works of God.

And secondly, I want to refer to the book of Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy is a book that's been blowing my mind lately.

That is such a good place to camp out is Deuteronomy. But there's an interesting spot in Deuteronomy where Moses is repeating the law, which is what

Deuteronomy means. He's reiterating the law for a future generation and he lays out the law.

And then he says, you have not been given listening ears or receiving heart.

And we're going, wait a minute. You just gave us all this law and then said, we can't do it.

And in the end of Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy 31 verse 15, it says,

God appeared in the tent in the column of cloud. The column of cloud stood above the entrance to the tent.

And the Lord said to Moses, you are about to sleep with your ancestors, but this people will get up and offer themselves as prostitutes to the foreign gods of the land where they are going.

When they are with those gods, they will abandon me and break my covenant, which I have made with them.

But the whole concept of Deuteronomy is you stand between life and death to choose life.

And then God says at the end, they're going to get it wrong. They're going to go the other way.

They're going to forsake my covenant. And the point being, it wasn't just the law.

It wasn't just the actions. It wasn't fully within them as individuals to do what this law required because they had to have spirit.

God had to dwell within them for them to abide in this law. And so even in the

Old Testament, the Holy Spirit was absolutely necessary because we are broken people with cold, dead hearts.

And God gives us a new heart that can do this, that can delight in this law.

Back to jump on this train. Man, I'm glad to be on this train.

This is a good one. But back to Ezekiel again in the Old Testament to the truth of what

Andy and Tyler just said. One right after the other, but I'm sorry, Ezekiel 36.

So in Ezekiel 36, verse 22, picking up there,

Thus, therefore, say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God, I do not this for your sake,

O house of Israel, but for my holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went.

And I will sanctify my great name, this is the Lord speaking, and that has been profaned among the nations which you have profaned in their midst.

And the nation shall know that I am the Lord, says the Lord God, when I am hallowed in you before their eyes.

For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries and bring you into your own land.

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean.

I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you.

I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put, and this is all, this is big, big ass spirit.

I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes.

Like Andy said, the principle of regeneration is in the old, just as it is in the new.

Before someone else jumps in, I just want to say two sentences. This is an area that, you know, as pastors, we're supposed to, we need to know everything and have it all together.

This is an area I'm struggling with right now because my entirety of my adult life was always, well, you know, the spirit was completely different in the

Old Testament. And I'm starting to read scripture and I really, over the last week, I've really dug in the subject.

I'm like, you know, I think I've been wrong on a lot of things. And so I'm just now coming and what you guys just covered,

I think is confirmation to me that I'm now heading in the right direction. So I just want to thank y 'all for that.

So I find myself not fitting in many camps anymore. You know what I'm saying? I mean, like, and so even in this camp, you know,

I've struggled through this, like dispensationalism. Well, I don't think we can deny that there's been a dispensation through time in the lower story.

We have the blood of bulls and goats and the blood of Christ. You know what I mean? That's definitely a change throughout time and how we worship and how we relate to God still through blood.

But where it's not changed ever, it's always been by grace, through faith, always. That has never changed.

It's always been God's plan. So I would just say, I think the principles of the

Holy Spirit are the same, but we still have a Christ concealed in the Old Testament and a Christ revealed in the

New Testament. And so the function of the Holy Spirit to glorify Christ, obviously there's not a

Christ revealed in the Old Testament. And so there is a function change there.

He is convicting the world of sin and he's pointing people to the coming Messiah. And in New Testament, he's pointing people to the

Messiah. The only question that I still feel unresolved in my heart, though, is

I do agree with everything you guys are saying. Apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, no man would have any faith by grace, through faith.

That's not changed at all. I struggle with the permanent indwelling of the

Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, apart from the finished work of Christ. It doesn't mean that the

Holy Spirit wasn't working and opening eyes and convicting the world of sin. It doesn't mean that he was not giving people eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart to believe and calling people out.

It's very clear that the power of the Holy Spirit was upon the prophets, upon kings, upon those who stood.

So all those functions are still there. But I think there is something unique about the permanency of the finished work of Jesus that allows a permanent indwelling and relationship with God through the

Holy Spirit because of the finished work of Jesus. And so I think for me, I'm asking that in more of a question of how

I'm working it out, too, in that because we've all been taught at some point in the

Old Testament, the Spirit came upon. In the New Testament, the Spirit indwelt. And trying to work through that, you know, is a struggle.

But that is where I've struggled with the finished work of Jesus to point it out.

The finished work of Christ is what ushered in the new covenant. And part of the new covenant, part of the gospel is

I am now with you. I will never leave you nor forsake you. I am with you all the way to the end.

And how is Christ with us all the way to the end? It's by the Holy Spirit. And so that same promise wasn't to Old Testament saints, even though they had

God, the Father, as their shepherd, as watching them, their high tower. I just I do.

I don't think we can say that that the relational aspect of the spirit in the

Old Testament is exactly the same as the relational aspect of the New Testament. It would be my conviction at this moment.

OK, at this moment. It's not a hill that I would down, but but we just can't we just can't dismiss the finished work of Jesus is what brings the actual day of Pentecost that was prophesied about.

But then the manifestation of that did not happen until after after the finished work of Christ.

So so that's so there has to be something unique that does separate Old Testament and New Testament as well.

I would just make that argument. I would probably tend to agree. I think that in regards to the work of the spirit in the

Old Testament, I think there's an element of God revealing himself to the Israelites in layers.

Like we don't have this this word Trinity in Genesis. It doesn't make

Genesis a non Trinitarian book. That's not just not part of the story of God unveiling himself to his people over generations and centuries.

And so I think there's definitely an element of he revealed parts of the way the

Holy Spirit operates in one generation and continued fleshing it out in later generations.

And we know David prayed, take not your spirit from me. Right. What does he mean by that?

So so again, I'm not saying the Holy Spirit's not intimately actively involved, but I think

I would be very I think it's interesting, Andy, that you use the word regeneration.

I've never considered personally until you said that tonight. I've never considered an

Old Testament saint regenerate. Well, and the reason that I would say that is

I personally don't believe that any of the Old Testament saints went to the throne room of God prior to the finished work of Christ.

John 313 says no man is ascended to heaven, save the son of man who's descended from heaven.

So so there was no access to the throne room of God there until Christ finished that work.

And so so that's where the psalm says, lift up your gates that the king of glory come in. Who is this king of glory?

Who dare approaches these gates? Lift up the gates that the king of glory come in. And so for the first time, a man ascends the hill of God, which is

Jesus Christ. And then there's the procession of the Old Testament saints. There's the procession of those that the captives that are set free that that now have direct access to the throne of God because of the finished work of Jesus.

But before then, no man had ever ascended to heaven. There was a Abraham's bosom.

There was a shield. There was that. But that's why Jesus said, even Abraham has been waiting for my day.

You know, he's he's delighting in my coming because the promise to Abraham is now being fulfilled.

And so so there's a lot to unpack in there. So that's all I'm trying to say is it's not synonymous.

If we make it synonymous, then that we're missing the pinnacle of it all of of the cross and the resurrection and the manifestation and the gospel.

The good news now, Emmanuel, God with us and now God in us. And why can

God permanently dwell in us and with us is because now we're under the blood of Christ and we're not going to the temple to get sins forgiven.

And we're not making sacrifices and we're not ritualistically trying to accomplish that.

So anyways, sorry. No, I think that's good. And is it

OK if I go to some scripture here? Because I think I completely understand what you're saying,

Jonathan. Absolutely, completely understand what you're saying. And and and the disconnect that like Andy originally started is with that disconnect that folks seem to have.

But I would say that based on the scripture itself, going just going to the text, that that it is that the the the reality of the the keeping of the

Holy Spirit is is, in fact, a reality in the

Old Testament as it is in the New Testament because of what the Lord told Abraham.

So in Genesis 17, 17, one.

So, I mean, I think all of us here probably know this, but just to recap, right.

So God comes to Abraham, promises to give him a seed and in his seed would all the in his seed singular would all the nations be blessed.

Right. So in chapter 17, when Abraham was ninety nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abraham and said to him,

I am almighty God, not Stephen Furtick, but I, I am

God almighty. Walk before me and be blamed and I will make my covenant between me and you.

OK, there we have the covenant and will multiply you exceedingly. Then Abraham fell on his face and God talked with him, saying, as for me, behold, my covenant is with you and you shall be a father of many nations.

No longer shall your name be called Abraham, but your name shall be Abraham, for I've made you a father of many nations.

And then he said this. I will make you exceedingly fruitful and I will make the nations of you and kings shall come from you.

And he said this. I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants in their generations for an everlasting covenant.

That's a that's continuity throughout that despite what they do, because when when

God when God made his unilateral covenant with Abraham, Abraham, it wasn't like most covenants where two people agree and that the practice of that day was for them to cut up animals and to to hold hands and walk between the pieces of those animals that they cut up.

But God caused a deep sleep to fall on Abraham. And in the night, the

Lord himself walked through those pieces, fulfilling that covenant. And so the covenant from old to New Testament is continuous.

It is a keeping covenant. And that is the promise that God gave to Abraham there, that his covenant was an everlasting covenant.

So there I think textually that there that there is that there.

But we have to we do have to dig to get that. Yeah. Well, hang on a second, Tim. So I like that.

So whenever he tells Abraham this covenant is everlasting, Abraham obviously isn't holding

Isaac in this moment. Right. Right. And Abraham doesn't have any way of seeing

Christ on the cross, nor any any of the church surrendering to it.

So when Abraham agrees to believe in this covenant, what is Abraham exercising faith?

Faith. Exactly. So I teach my Sunday school class this way, whether it's wrong or right.

It makes sense to me. Distance and time do not have any bearing whatsoever on the salvific power of Christ.

So I look reverse as down the timeline, nearly two thousand years at the cross.

And I believe and therefore I'm saved. Right. Two thousand years before the cross, a man looking forward to the promise of God is looking at the cross and his salvation is just as assured.

Regardless of the the mosaic covenant that he may have to keep in keeping with the law, his salvation was never going to be dependent upon his keeping of the law in the first place.

That's what Paul says in the Book of Romans. Rather, sin became exceedingly simple because of the law and pointing to a better savior, pointing to something.

So and in a lot of ways, no, no, in every way, this has been the original intent of salvation from the beginning.

When you look at Genesis chapter 24th, Abraham, I listened to a guy who's gone on to be

Lord now years ago, and he made this this illustration making so much sense to me.

So Isaac is getting a wife. Abraham has a servant that is his oldest servant long before he has a son.

And before Abraham has a son, the servant is heir to everything that he is. So we have a father and a son, a servant's name was

Eliezer, the Lord who helps me. And then he has a son, a son of promise. The servant makes a covenant with the father to seek out the bride for the son.

Now, if this is not a picture, if this is not a picture of the church, if this is not God putting it right on the edge of the era and saying this is the way

I designed this entire thing to work. These these three different persons work in unity just to make one goal come come out.

And I believe it was the law that came because of man's disobedience and his stubborn heartedness that God put a law out there because of man that it was to make salvation impossible.

If isn't hitched to this law in any capacity and whether whether a man is able to complete any of the law would would obviously be in completely dependent upon the

Lord doing this in this man. But more than that, the law stands so that no man can complete the law.

And the man must be rescued from his own sin. Man must be rescued. And the standard being so ever impossible set by God is carried out by God.

And in a sense, we call this the gospel and a sense, you know, but this is the this is the full plan from from front end to back end.

And I don't I don't fall into the typical camp that that most guys on this podcast fall into.

But I do value your input and I learn a lot from this from this podcast. But one of the things that I think about in Old Testament is

Pastor John saying where the Holy Spirit appeared to move on people as to rather move in people.

I tend to side with the way you were, I guess, taught younger because you see the

Holy Spirit come on people and then leave. And in the New Testament, you see the Holy Spirit come and dwell on Christ and never leave.

It must have been something that was so unique that it was worth writing down. Right. All four gospel accounts catch it.

And then Christ sends the Holy Spirit to his disciples in a manner where there's no longer this coming and going.

This is I'm going to dwell in you. My spirit will dwell in you and you will be the tabernacle.

That's a dispensation or no. I don't I don't think that the

New Testament line was drawn in Matthew from from Malachi, because I believe all the people who are looking for God, God will reveal himself to him.

You see, Anna's testimony and Simeon's testimony whenever Jesus is circumcised.

These are two people that weren't weren't priest in the typical sense in the

Old Testament or judges in a time and place when supposedly God is not talking for 400 years.

But somehow or another, God gets a message through to two people who are seeking after God that you will see this promise before you die.

Now, that's amazing. That is amazing to me. And the only way that God tends to communicate with people throughout all of time has been by way of the

Holy Spirit, except in the case where you see Jesus talking to people. Yeah, I think that's what

I was driving at the where where I'm still struggling through it is Old Testament.

It is a distinctive. The spirit came upon him and it's a distinctive.

So so, again, I totally agree. And I feel like that's that's why I try to sometimes separate things in upper story, lower story, that covenant that you're talking about.

When was that written with Abraham? I mean, when was that written for us? I mean, that's that's before the foundations of the world ever began.

And so what so I think what we're targeting in the question, though, is not about the upper story mind of God, the acts of God, the covenants of God.

I think we're talking in the lower story of the manifestations of those promises of where we're got in, like, like Tyler was saying,

I think there is layer upon layer of that, of how God is revealing that.

And so that so so that's I think where I'm I'm still struggling just a little bit to say it's synonymous when

Hebrew language and Greek language not always line up exactly. But it's there is something different in being driven by the spirit.

And Luke, you know, it says the spirit drove Jesus to the wilderness and by the spirit, they did this by the spirit.

So so it doesn't appear that there's like for this moment, the spirit came upon Ezekiel and he prophesied or came up on Jeremiah saying prophesy or the word of the

Lord came to them saying prophesy. And it would appear that there there still have to be a work of the spirit for the convicting or even to be to be to love the law of God, to even be pursuing

God. So there's not a work of the spirit, but at all.

But I'm saying I do. I do. I don't think we can say it was the exact same experience for an

Old Testament saint as it is for a New Testament saying.

And what's the difference? It is now the blood of Christ is applied to us. And that's just where I'm at, because then, too, why would

Jesus have even had to go preach to the captives? You know, why would it have been those resurrected from the dead with Jesus?

You know, that's right. You know where there are just so many things that happen as a result of that that shift, that paradigm shift.

Why would the why was the bell of the temple even read then? I think that I think there's more to that part you just said right there than we then we've ever really dove in more than I've ever dove into.

But you think about the place of the purpose of the tabernacle in the Old Testament. Right. And the absence of the tabernacle, the absence of the tabernacle in the

New Testament. That's right. Right. And so that's what I'm saying. I think there's just that.

Is that what you're talking about? I'm talking about the lower story. That's why I'm saying in the lower story, upper story, I think a hundred percent we're in agreement.

I mean, a hundred percent. I mean, there there there there is the was, is and ever will be.

Yeah. What you're saying is that in the upper story, the plan of redemption has always been the same. It's never changed.

Exactly. But in in time, as it's been worked out, as I like the word

Tyler used, layers. Right. And so my biggest struggle is we almost need to differentiate certain works of the

Spirit because it's clear in the Old Testament and in the New, although not as much. We don't see this in the language of the

New Testament as much in the Old Testament. But you'll see the Holy Spirit came upon to empower, supernaturally empower people or men or individuals or groups of people to perform certain actions.

But at the same time, we know redemptively the natural man cannot repent and exercise faith.

So we have to understand that in some way, the Spirit is working to regenerate

Old Testament believers in the sense that he is raising their spirit to life, creating them a new creature in God.

But at the same time, the way the Spirit works within individuals, I do think there is a distinction.

As John was saying, I do see that distinction. My only thing is it's hard for me to sort of square up the you know, because there's a lot going on.

So I think what we have to do is you have to not necessarily separate, but you have to understand there is a different work of the

Spirit and what he does to save people. That would be consistent. As Big John said, they may have been looking forward or backward, but the consistency of grace through faith and how

Spirit saves is the part that I think is consistent. And I think the part that is distinct in pre -cross, post -cross is how and when and why the

Spirit will come upon people for certain actions and stuff. And so I'm kind of curious to see what people think about that.

I just want to make sure we don't miss what the law could not do,

Christ did. So we just can't miss that. So there was this work of the

Spirit in people to call people out that you're sinful. And because the law has proved sinful and you need to repent.

But there was still a void there of what that Old Testament law could not do. Christ did.

And so now what those people in the Old Testament did not have the same with,

I don't know how to say it, the verbiage escapes me, but did not have the same comprehensively grace that we have.

I don't need a prophet to tell me what the word of the

Lord is. I don't have to sit around and wait for someone. Modern day you're talking about.

Or even New Testament from that point, even though there's transitional pieces there. Even Paul tells

Timothy, don't forget what was prophesied over you. You know what I mean? And those kind of things. So there's still that going on, even in the

New Testament transitions. But I have the word of God in front of me and the living word of God in me.

And now the spirit is my teacher. And I'm not sure that we have evidence in the

Old Testament that every single Old Testament saint had that same ability. They had the law read to them.

But they were waiting for the spirit to come up on a man of God that was a prophet of God to give the word of God.

So all I'm saying is there's definitely in the lower story distinctions in the unilateral crossing ages covenant that we have, that we all we benefit from under today.

But I just want to make sure that we're I think we have to say that there's distinctions between Old Testament and New Testament in the relational aspect of the

Holy Spirit. So let me pose another question. Well, as Tyler mentioned layers, we're all we're all we're all thrown in these layers.

So to the work of the Holy Spirit. Right. We we we believe every single one of us believe that the word of God is inspired.

God breathed. Right. And the and the the kind of stating of that fact is that how did we come about come about to get the word of God?

Holy men of old were carried about by the Holy Spirit. Right.

Even the word of God. So the Old Testament, the Old Testament saints got the word of God from the same holy because the

Holy Spirit never changes. Amen. Right. Genesis one one. In the beginning,

God created the heavens of the earth and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. That's the Hebrew word.

There's Ruach. It's it's referring. It's Catholic spirit. So it's the same spirit that that was in the

Godhead, the Trinity there in the beginning. We have we have that.

We have the Trinity there. We have the Holy Spirit throughout. I'm sorry, throughout.

So the Old Testament saints were carried along by the same Holy Spirit that the New Testament saints were carried along.

And and I would say in the exact same way to the to the point of the scripture being inspired.

Right. It wasn't it. It wasn't any different for the Old Testament saints to be carried along by the spirit as it was than it was for the

New Testament saints to be carried along by the spirit concerning the inspiration of the scripture. I think we can we can see a commonality there.

Yes, sure. If I could tug at this, this thread a little bit. I don't have a degree.

I'm going to have to jump in here at some point. This is your house, brother.

Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. I mean, I don't I don't have a degree in this stuff.

I am not the reigning expert in all this, and I want to give the impression that I am.

I'm working through this stuff just the same as you guys. I've just been reading a pile of Old Testament lately.

And I think there are some great things in here to to think about is we're we're fleshing this out, building off what we've been talking about with layers.

And, yes, the Holy Spirit did, as it says, come on some people and then leave. A great example of this is in Numbers 24, when there is a pagan magician by the name of Balaam, who is basically hired by the king of Moab to curse the

Israelites. And God, through the Holy Spirit, it says the spirit of God came upon him.

And God literally hijacks the dude's mouth to bless

God. He makes him bless the God of Israel. And so there's absolutely this.

There's on some level there are different things going on in the Old Testament, and there's a there's a common theme.

There's a common phrase from Genesis all the way through. So that all may know, so that all nations may know, all the families may know.

Claude read this in Ezekiel 36, so that all will know that I am the

Lord. And this is this is a constant theme. So why did the Holy Spirit come upon a pagan magician so that all the nations may know?

Why did God walk through the entrails while Abraham was sleeping so that all the nations may know?

And why did the spirit of God fill the temple? Why did this happen?

Why did this happen? So that all the nations may know. Why did the Holy Spirit dwell within us this side of the cross in the finished work of Christ so that all the nations may know?

Amen. Amen. As a listener,

I don't know if you guys are seeing it, hearing it, and other people who are listening and watching may not be hearing it the way that I am.

But as a listener listening to this conversation, the more you guys are giving input,

I feel like you are bringing harmonization to. I mean, you've got different paths, but you're bringing harmonization.

The more input that you guys are bringing, I'm hearing the harmonization happening. And here's what's going on in my brain.

And you guys let me know if you think this helps harmonize a little bit more the conversation.

So in the Old Testament, you've got the temple, you've got the tabernacle and you've got the Holy of Holies. Who was the only one that could go into the

Holy of Holies? The high priest. It was the high priest. And there was stipulation for him to go into the

Holy of Holies, right? I mean, he had to make a sacrifice. Once a year. Yeah, once a year.

And he had to go through this cleansing, this sacrifice, even to be able to go into the temple. But there's that story that we hear.

He had to wear a rope, a veil, whatever. And something happened. He could be pulled out. You have that story that we hear sometimes.

But that sacrifice didn't last. He had to come out.

And he could only go once a year. And it was through that sacrifice and cleansing. But that was the tabernacle.

That was the temple. And then you come over to the New Testament. And after the work of Christ, there's no more temple physically with brick and mortar.

What does the New Testament say the temple is? You are the temple.

Yes. The living God. The believer. That's right. And the church as a whole.

But now, because of the ultimate sacrifice, the final sacrifice, the perfect sacrifice, we become the temple.

And we can dwell in the Holy of Holies permanently because of the work of Christ.

And that way, in the Old Testament, we talk about the Holy Spirit coming upon but leaving.

I see that in the tabernacle in the temple where that sacrifice didn't last. He could only go in once a year.

He had to come out. He went in, made a sacrifice for the nation, come out. But because of the work of Christ.

Come on, brother. We can dwell in the presence of the Lord perpetually forever because of the work of Christ through the

Holy Spirit. And that's different. And so does that help kind of harmonize the story some?

Absolutely. And that's what I'm trying to say. There's a difference in that lower story from those

Old Testament saints to a New Testament saint. That's what I'm glad you picked up on that, Robert. That's what I was going to while ago with the veil of the temple being rent.

You know what I mean? There is no longer a place of brick and mortar and an Ark of the

Covenant where the Spirit of God dwells. And no one has access to it.

Now the veil's been torn, and now we all have access. We all are that Holy of Holies.

So there is a shift. There is a paradigm shift.

And again, I don't want to sound dispensational. I mean, I don't care what people say. I don't even know. I've tried to study that, and I'm like,

I think people make stuff up about half the time just so they sound smart. Yeah, that word itself, dispensation, if not nuanced, is totally misleading.

It is. Well, the reason I brought that up at the beginning is just because that was my whole experience.

What I was saying is I think that because the way, when you're in that mode, you think, now, like I said, all

Christians were recognized, like we're talking about. There's, as God works in time, there are periods of time that look differently, but dispensationalism takes it a step further.

That specifically says God interacts with man specifically differently and things like that. And there is a certain sect of dispensationalism that will actually say that Old Testament saints were actually saved differently than New Testament saints.

So what I was saying is as I started to broaden my reading, getting ready for tonight,

I just kept coming up with, okay, you were wrong there. You were wrong there. You were wrong there. And I'm like,

I'm doing nothing but being wrong here. Let me find out what's right. And I agree with Rob.

Everything I'm hearing is reinforcing in my mind that, and I like, I'm probably going to steal the whole higher story, lower story thing from John.

I'll give you credit. But to me, it hits to the whole notion of the

God -centered versus man -centered. We tend to think in creaturely categories. We're finite beings.

We look at things through that lens. And God's saying there's nothing different about my redemptive program in the

New Testament or the Old Testament from the standpoint of the Trinitarian harmony in redemption.

But the roles naturally change over time. And I actually want to throw out a question here.

I've never done this before, so y 'all can help me a little bit. When I read people talk about this, they talk about it specifically, and I didn't pull it out, but the

Forgotten Trinity by Dr. White. He has a whole chapter where he talks about specifically when the

Comforter comes, John 14 language, the Spirit's whole role in the new covenant.

And this hits the heart of Rob's question about the differences in the Spirit's role in these covenants. His whole role is to promote

Christ, honor Christ, glorify Christ through permanently indwelling believers and then working through them to promote.

Whereas in the Old Testament, you see almost the Spirit in the foreground a little bit more because you see a lot of writing from these

Old Testament writers about how the Spirit came upon this person and did this and the Spirit this and the

Spirit that. And the shift in language and almost in a shift in where the Spirit says, okay, now

I'm going to do this sort of in a different way. So my question would be, do y 'all see a distinction in the sense of the

Spirit's prominence in the Old Testament versus now? It seems like it's more of a back, not a backseat, but more of a behind the scenes role.

So what I would, I would reverse it, but make sure that our words are carefully chosen.

I see the prominence. I see a uniqueness of the work of the power of the

Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, whereas in the New Testament, the same spirit that's in me is the same spirit that's in you.

And so I don't want to use the word common as if it's just like lower of important.

But now there's a commonality of all saints that we all have the same spirit.

We all have the same access. We all have the same anointing. Now we'll get in later talking about giftings and diversities and all this kind of stuff like that.

But now I'm not waiting for the Spirit to come up on one of you guys to give us a word.

You know, I have that and you have that. And so there is a commonness of every believer.

There is an absolute level ground. And so so I think that's why you may be saying it's more in the background.

It's it's not a it's not a one person that the spirit came upon.

And and everyone is just in awe of the power of this one guy. You know, it's now that still kind of happens in a weird, sinful sense in our stand time where people do stuff.

But but now Jesus told every disciple, it's good that I leave because I'm going to do something unique.

I'm going to send the comforter to you. There's something there. He's going to teach you and he's going to guide you in all manners of truth.

He's going to comfort you. And so and this this is one of my favorite subjects to break down.

When it comes to eschatology, I'm weaker in dishwater. I like to just listen, but I'm I'm I'm passionate about because because that is

I just I just holistically believe. What's happened is,

I mean, Francis Chan wrote the book Forgotten God, you know, and I think I think at the time that he wrote it, whether you like him or not, he's right.

Because what's happened is Andy, is we have made when I said use the word common,

I don't mean that in a manner of like it's a lesser. But the problem is we've made the Holy Spirit just common and not supernatural.

And and we forget the same spirit that raised

Christ from the dead, that that resurrected Christ, the mountainous weight of sin, the sin of the world is in us.

That's right. So if so, why are we like just so downtrodden?

And so just woe is me and all this kind of stuff when that same spirit is in us.

And the Old Testament saints could not say that they didn't have that same testimony that a

New Testament saint has, at least in that time. OK, at least in that time. Now, did the spirit and power people do absolutely incredible things?

Yes, he did. You know, he certainly did. But but that's

I think you're on to something there. And I'm not trying to correct your verbiage. I just think as we work through that, you clarified very well for me, you know.

And do you think that's why he's mentioned more in the New Testament is because they men are now having a new experience with the

Holy Spirit because of the world? All Christians. We don't we don't have evidence in the

Old Testament that all. All children of Israel had experience with the

Holy Spirit. We don't have that. We don't have that testimony. We have the New Testament that all believers.

And are you speaking relationally when you make that statement? Is that what you mean? Yes. Relationally. And I'm with you and empowerment and empowerment.

Now, now I'm totally in agreement. Please don't misunderstand. I'm saying I'm totally in agreement with what

Claude was saying earlier. What you guys are saying are the work of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, to cause people to repent and turn to God, to seek

God. A hundred percent. The Holy Spirit has to do that. A hundred percent. That's Romans three hasn't changed in the past, today and forever.

You know what I'm saying? No man seeks God. So why would we the work of the Holy Spirit? But but what

I am saying is, as in a lower story, experiential and relational aspect, not all

Old Testament saints have the promise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the power of the

Holy Spirit, that the Old Testament saints were not the temple of God. That was a place made with brick and mortar and by hands.

And now that's destroyed. And now we are the temple, you know, so. So again,

I think we're all saying the same thing, but it's but it's. It's like the Holy Spirit was putting strategically placed signposts throughout the

Old Testament narrative as opposed to that constant abiding in the spirit.

That's right. The way I've looked at it is that in God and sovereignty at times has has taken the wheel and said, nope, this is what's going to happen for this moment.

Then let's go. I think about what you're coming up with, Abraham. I'm going to harden

Pharaoh's heart. They're going to give you everything. Your neighbors are going to give you their wealth and you're going to leave and part the river or part the sea later on.

I'm going to I want to give you the law. People are going to be hard headed. There's a lot of sovereign kingly talk here where in times throughout the

Old Testament. I think the reason it looks so much differently then than it does in the New Testament is because, as John has just said, and it's been said many times, not every person is in the way with the

Holy Spirit and God. God isn't in a divine relationship with every single person because not every person is a believer.

So there's times entire nations have to be steered. And God said, I'm going to put a man right here and I'll come.

I'll come on him in a way that the entire nation and all the course of history will be changed. And this is the same way that the scriptures were written.

It moved on to write the scriptures. And because it's so important, you can't leave that up to man because he will mess that up ten times out of ten.

So God and his sovereignty moves in the Old Testament. And because God lives in his church in the

New Testament, his sovereignty is still there. But because it's so universally and we'll use that word.

Is that all right, Pastor John? Because he's so universally distributed amongst his two believers, that it's the same level of sovereignty, but you don't have these massive radical changes that steer entire nations because everybody's walking in the same way.

Look how small a rudder turns a ship. Keep your tongue in check.

I want to bottom line it. It sounds to me from what I'm hearing that the bottom line, to be put it in a very succinct way for people that are listening, would be this.

The Holy Spirit being God has not changed because God cannot change. However, the

Spirit's active role in time has necessarily changed as Revelation has been progressively laid out.

So his role and the actions he takes, whether coming upon people or now permanently indwelling people, has changed, but the

Spirit himself remains the same. Is that what I'm hearing? Sure. I'd say so. And our relationship to him.

Yeah. Good. Yeah. Hey, Rob, we've done an hour on one question. And you know what?

There is no way that I can... I'm going to try to, though. But I feel like there's no way that I can make shorts out of this.

And I'm just now familiar with that new language shorts, which is short videos from a longer one.

People need to listen to the whole thing. I don't think that I can make shorts out of this video. I really encourage people to share this and listen to the whole thing, because I really appreciate the input from all of you guys.

And I think we were working things out and bringing harmony to the subject because it's difficult.

And I'm thankful for what all you guys have said. Is everyone

OK if we do a part three next week? Absolutely. I'm not because I'm not going to be here.

But you may be coming home with a big deer mule. That'll make it worthwhile. Hey, listen,

I promise you I'll be fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit on top of those beautiful Wyoming mountains.

Looking at the Rockies and the Grand Tetons, I'll be, I'll be, I will be fellowshipping with the

Lord and his majesty. So I got a good New Testament believer. That's right. Let me let me let me give you some scriptural encouragement.

Peter said, Arise, kill and eat. Amen. Well, Genesis 34,

Isaac told his son to take his bow and go get some of the savory meat. That's right. I think it's 34, isn't it?

Or he told, he told Adam, I'm going to give you dominion over all the animals.

And I'm just going to remind a few next week that God hasn't changed.

He changed his mind. Call that mule deer in.

Hey, come here. You're way too far off. I need you to stand still. Don't move. Just close out this deep, prodding

Old Testament discussion with taking some verses out of context. Where's my cup?

I got a cup from the conference last week from Reform Sage. It says I can do all things through a verse taken out of context.

Well, I really appreciate you guys. And let's finish this conversation with the gospel and prayer.

So, Pastor John, will you share the gospel with us? And Big John, would you close us in prayer when he finishes?

Yes, sir. I think if you've listened tonight, you've heard a lot of the gospel interwoven in this.

That there is a God that we call Father. And he has a son who is also

God, whose name is Jesus. And the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the

Holy Spirit would have you be listening to us even right now. We believe in a

God that is so loving and so powerful that he draws people from all ways and all kinds of unique things to himself.

And so if you're listening right now, first of all, know it's not by accident. God specifically wants you to hear the message of tonight.

And so the gospel really just simply means good news. And we have in the Old Testament in Genesis chapter three, a tragedy, which we call the fall, which means sin came into the world.

And by that first man's sin, Adam and Eve, by their sin, the Bible says that all men from that point in time became sinful.

So what's the big deal about sin? The problem is God is absolutely holy. And the Bible says that no man can enter into him sinful.

And then there's a real problem. If all men have become sinful, Genesis chapter three,

I mean Romans chapter three, verse 23 tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

And the only way to get to God is to be as holy and perfect as he is perfect. Then we all have a real problem.

We've got a real serious issue that now the only thing that we have to look forward to is the wrath of God and the condemnation of God.

But God in his loving providence sent his son, Jesus, that he came.

And we believe God himself came in the flesh of man. And his name was

Jesus. And the only way to have forgiveness of sin is through this Old Testament law that you've been hearing Tyler talking about.

The book of Leviticus says there is no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. And so that is

God's law. And so you heard us talking about the sacrifices that was made once a year.

You heard that. And praise God, Jesus came to not do away with that law. He didn't do away with it.

But he absolutely fulfilled it. In other words, Jesus lived a perfect and sinless, holy life.

What no man could ever do, he did. And then he became that perfect sacrifice.

I love how it's recorded that John the Baptist, he sees Jesus coming in the

Gospel of Luke. And he looks up and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

And so we have this man named Jesus who is that perfect sacrifice. And where was he sacrificed?

That on an old rugged cross. That wicked man by sinful hands nailed him to a cross.

But in that upper story that we've talked about, that was God's perfect plan. Because Jesus, no one took his life, but he gladly laid down his life like a sheep, led to the slaughter.

He opened not his mouth, knowing that this was the will of the Father to save his people from their sin.

So Jesus died on the cross. In Colossians chapter 3, it's one of my favorite chapters of the whole Bible. It says that in that moment, the sins, our sins, was nailed to the cross.

As Jesus was nailed to the cross, our sins was nailed to the cross. Blotted out of the way with their legal demand.

The legal demand is what? The wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus.

And so for those that believe, our sin is nailed to the cross. Blotted out of the way, never to be remembered.

And Jesus has finished it. And then on the third day, he resurrected. Not staying dead, not just being a sacrifice, but being a victorious king.

And now he says, Come follow me. All of you come follow me. Come believe on me, because what I have done is enough.

And I would tell you tonight that it really is what we've talked about. The work of grace is that we are right now hearing this gospel.

That God is drawing on your heart. He's pulling you in. He's given you an ability to pay attention.

He's given you an ability to be like, Wow, that must be true. And as he's given you that ability, what do we do?

We call upon the Lord and say, Save us. And the Bible says that all that call upon him, he won't turn you away.

So I don't care what you've done. I don't care who you are right now. But because of the finished work of Jesus, we love you enough to say,

Call upon the Lord and be saved. And what that means to be saved is that wrath of God that I talked about earlier and that condemnation of God that I talked about earlier.

Now, for those that believe, Romans chapter 8 verse 1 says, Therefore, there is no condemnation for them that are in Christ.

How do we get that salvation? Just believing. I've just told you

God's story. God has already said, I know you've sinned. God has already said,

I'm angry at sin. I am wrathful at sin. God has said, I have made a way to escape my wrath, which is my son,

Jesus. It's already finished. The covenant is already written in the blood of Christ. Now, just believe me that it's finished.

Claude was telling us earlier about Abraham. And it really is this simple. God gave

Abraham promises. And the Bible says that Abraham believed God. And then what did

God do? He imputed it to him, counted it to him as righteousness.

If God's story is, you've sinned against him. He sent his son, Jesus, to pay for your sin.

And it is absolutely finished. And now tonight we invite you, call on the Lord, and just believe him.

And there's a miraculous thing that happens that nobody can really explain in human terms. That when we believe him, not a work of earning this, not a work, even the gift of faith to believe is a gift and work of God.

But miraculously, when we believe, then he says, I give you righteousness.

Right standing with me. I restore what was lost by sin. Now, I restore it back to you that now we have right standing with each other and we have eternal life.

And so I pray that tonight we pray that tonight that if you're far away from God, that you would hear the good news of the gospel, that he loves you very much.

He sent his son, Jesus, to die, that we can believe on him and all that do have everlasting life.

God bless you. Amen. Father, we come to you in Jesus name. Lord, I want to thank you for every word that's been spoken.

God, if they be anyone who listens and don't know you, I pray that you draw them to you and you save them by your grace, to your power,

Lord. God, for the men that are on this podcast, I pray a blessing upon them.

I pray that you look after them and their families. Lord, I pray that you continue to work on them, work on us to make us more like you.

God, that we might be an example the best we can and be led of your Holy Spirit. Do the things that you've called us to do.

God, we'll be very careful to give you the praise, to give you the glory and give you the honor for it all because you're worthy. And there's none like you,

Lord. That's right. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you guys for watching.

We really appreciate it. We hope you were encouraged. And I would like to encourage you with this. Remember that Jesus is king.

Go live in the victory of Christ. Go speak with the authority of Christ. And go share the gospel of Christ.