July 10, 2025 Show: Jeremiah Nortier vs. Jared K. Henry Debate on the Ordination of Women (Day 1 of 2)

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Introduces the Two-Day Debate on Women’s Ordination

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday.

On this 10th day of July 2025, I am absolutely thrilled about today's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program because it's something that I've been trying to arrange and host literally for decades, but I have finally been given the opportunity by our gracious and benevolent Lord to arrange today's debate.

Today's debate is the first day of a two-day debate. The debate will be held today and tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, the same topic. And the topic we are addressing today is the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

That is the debate thesis, and we have two evangelical Christian pastors to debate this. There is no liberal involved in this particular debate, even though conservatives and liberals disagree over this.

Today's debate does not feature a liberal debater, and we have affirming this thesis statement, the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable, is Jared K. Henry. And Jared K. Henry is a pastor of the Mackie Church of the Nazarene in Mackie, Indiana.

The website of that church is MackieNaz .org, M-A-C-K-E-Y-N-A-Z .org. And first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jared K. Henry.

Thank you so much for having me. It's good to be with you, and I'm looking forward to our discussion today.

And to oppose the thesis, the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable, is my friend Pastor Jeremiah Nortier. Pastor Jeremiah Nortier is a pastor of the Twelve Five Church located in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

The website of that church is TheWordTwelveTheNumberFiveChurch .com. That's TheWordTwelveTheNumberFiveChurch .com. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back as well to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jeremiah Nortier.

Chris, it's been a hot minute, so thanks for having me back on.

It is my pleasure. And we are going to begin our debate with 10-minute opening statements from each of our participants. And since he is affirming the debate thesis, we are going to start with a 10-minute opening remark from Pastor Jared K. Henry.

And you may begin, brother.

All right. So I just want to start by saying thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for allowing me to represent what I hold as what I believe to be a biblical viewpoint. Obviously, we're going to interpret something differently during our conversation here.

But just to put a few things out on the table to start with is I believe in the authority of Scripture to speak to these issues. I think that apart from Scripture, we don't have any right to really speak to those issues.

So I think that's important to highlight. I want to come from a biblical standpoint. I'm a part of the Church of the Nazarene. We ordained women before it was a liberal thing to do. Before women had the right to vote, the Church of the Nazarene actually recognized that God called women to specific roles in the life of the church.

And so we were doing that beforehand. So I'm not a proponent of feminist ideology here. That's not what I'm trying to do. I'm not advocating for some kind of cultural expression of women's rights. But rather, I am advocating for a what I believe to be a biblical viewpoint that God calls women to ministry.

I think in the olden... So here's four points just to kind of summarize my perspective. One, the Old and the New Testament give examples of women who held a number of different positions in the life of the people of God.

They prophesied. They prayed in church. They exercised authority over men and did so under the leadership of the Holy Spirit at God's call. Number two, there were some instances when women in particular circumstances were not allowed to lead or to teach in that setting.

And I recognize that. That scripture will probably be referred to today. And I would welcome that. And so there are some situations and some scenarios in which women would be restricted in some context.

Number three, but the fact remains that there are multiple biblical examples of women who prophesied, who were used by God. And there's more of those examples than there are the particular specific restrictions.

So neither the restrictions to teach or the encouragement to preach actually apply to every woman, obviously. And we're talking about ordination, which simply means God's call. So we're recognizing that not every woman is called to preach because she just wants to do that or chooses to do that.

Just like not every man is called to preach, that there is a process that the church of Jesus Christ goes through to discern the call of God. And that's what we're talking about. The church discerning, did God call this person to preach, to lead, to do those kind of things?

So there are some women, I believe, who are called to preach or prophesy or whatever you want to do to lead in those kinds of ways. And there are some women who are not, just like there are some men or some women.

However, I'm not advocating for some kind of affirmative action based upon gender. I'm not advocating that there should be 50 percent men and 50 percent women. I'm advocating for what I believe to be the tenor of scripture.

In the last days, God will pour out a spirit on your sons and your daughters and they'll prophesy. Has the spirit called these individuals? That's the responsibility of the church. And thus, who am I to tell God who he can or cannot call?

Number four, finally, the responsibility of the church to identify those people, whether male or female, who have been called by God and led. And it's obvious that they have gifts and graces and the anointing of the Holy Spirit in their life to operate in these positions of authority or leadership or however you'd like to describe them.

Do those individuals not just have they jumped through some human hurdles of education or, you know, that kind of a thing? But is it evident that the spirit of God is working through them so that they have those leadership skills?

So that's ultimately, I think that you can conclude from scripture that there are some prohibitions against women in ministry, women preaching, women even speaking in certain contexts in the life of the church.

However, I don't think that that's a universal statement, and I think scripture bears witness to that as well, because God does call and use women to speak and to lead. All right, so that's kind of the thrust of my biblical perspective on that.

And you do have a little less than five minutes to go if you want to continue.

Well, I'll let I'll just I'll abdicate my time and maybe save it for responding to some other things.

OK, and we are now going to allow Jeremiah Nortier to have his 10 minute opening statement.

OK, thank you so much, both Mr. Jared and Chris, for having me on. So I am taking the negative to the thesis statement, which once again, I want to read says the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

So I don't want to just directly go against what Mr. Jared said yet. We'll have rebuttals here in a minute. So I want to show why I think biblically we can know with certainty that this is not true. And I want to begin with the words of the Apostle Paul.

Now, remember, the thesis says explicitly that women can be ordained and have authority over men in Christ's church. That is acceptable. But Paul says, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

Rather, she is to remain quiet. Now, that's just one verse in a whole context. But Paul is building his case to say there is a way that the church is to be set up and used as a means of grace for the saints every Lord's Day.

And I want to contend that Paul is not talking about something just unique to the first century with the women in Ephesus and the false teachers. Maybe we can touch on some of that. But First Timothy is rooted in a timeless principle.

And chapter three, he even says, this is for the churches. I'm writing these things to you so that if I delay, you may know how you ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church. And so I don't want to say that a difference in roles and difference in design between men and women is a bad thing.

Just because women are designed to be submissive and not to have authority over men. There is a beauty to that that is rooted, Paul says, in creation. He goes on to say, for Adam was formed first, then Eve.

Now, there is something going on here with Adam being created first. He is the authority over God handing him dominion over all of creation. But in the Genesis account, it wasn't enough for Adam to be alone.

As he was naming all the animals, he did not have a suitable helpmate for himself. And God brings to him a helper for him. And so she was not with him equal in authority, but he was to love her by leading.

And woman was to lovingly submit in helping him in this task. So this is something that is transcultural, meaning this is a universal, timeless principle that Paul is giving us because he roots his argument in, essentially, Genesis chapter 2.

And so I believe the apostle Paul sees beauty in this complementary role that women have with male authority. And, like I said, we look at the word submission. I think we have a culture and we have external ideologies that says maybe that means that women would be lesser if she were to submit to a man.

I'd like to submit that that is the furthest thing from the apostle Paul's mind. In fact, in 1 Corinthians chapter 11, he goes on to say that the head of Christ is God and the head of a husband is Christ, but the head of his wife is her husband.

And so in 1 Corinthians 11, he goes on to say that the image of the glory of God is man, but the woman is the glory of man. I would like to submit to you, women by design have a beauty that causes mankind to shine.

So there's a beauty with being designed differently. The apostle Peter talks about how there is not just a difference in roles between men and women, but as a different formed vessel. She has limitations that she is to lovingly submit to her husband.

And as we're talking about women making mankind shine, this is very important to understanding the ecclesiology of how Christ is building his church in the new covenant. As Mr. Jared pointed out, how there is examples of women in the Old Testament, I would say, you know, having these leadership roles.

I would say, number one, we are under a different covenant. So we might find principles of continuity between Old Testament, Old Covenant and New Covenant. But in many of these cases, the fact, you know, you see a judge like Deborah.

In many ways, this is a judgment against Israel because there are no men standing up for what God has called them to do. And so as we look at continuity and discontinuity between the Old Covenant and New Covenant, something else we see is prophecy.

Prophecy in its broad meaning just means to declare revelatory truth. And I want to be a firm advocate that women in the church service can definitely proclaim truth along with the rest of the body. There's many times regulated throughout the church service where we get to sing truth, where we get to declare the truths of Scripture back and forth.

But as we go back to Paul's argument in First Timothy, something that is reserved for the overseer, the office of overseer, pastor, elder. This is exclusively to be for men. That's why Paul goes on in chapter three.

He talks about the office of overseer. It is male. And he goes on to say that qualifications of being above reproach is you must be a husband of one wife and able to teach. And so this kind of teaching is teaching sound doctrine with precision to feed the flock.

This is reserved for men. In fact, it would be improper for a woman who is able to teach in many other contexts. We see throughout the book of Acts women prophesying and sharing the gospel. We see that even in the gospel accounts.

We see women proclaiming that Christ is risen. This is not within the context of a local church gathering. And the pastor teacher is reserved for someone who is ordained and called by God. I actually appreciated Mr. Jared talking about, you know, ordained means to be called by God.

But then Jared said, who am I to talk about if somebody else is called by God? Well, first, Timothy chapter three talks about there is an internal calling that God works into the heart of an individual.

But there's also an external affirmation of someone who displays and aspires to this role. And it's only within the qualification of that male authority. It's not that I look at a woman and say, you're not fit to be a leader, an overseer, a pastor, and preaching from a context of declaring God's truth to the flock.

God has already declared these things in unambiguous terms. And so what I anticipate that we see today is how we have principles of methodology of hermeneutics and how we interpret Scripture. And so I think it is striking to see that when Paul says he does not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority, this is going back to the very foundation of creation.

What we notice that is rooted in creation is male headship or male authority. This is not a perversion of the fall. Like I said, what was designed was for a husband to have authority over his wife, but to lovingly lead her.

What is distorted by the fall is a husband with his authority is typically passive and allows his wife to do things and has her bear responsibilities that he is meant to bear, not her. She is designed to take what her husband gives her.

The husband works hard, he builds the house, and the wife makes it a home. That is why we see such a strong parallel between marriage and the church. And so I just want to emphasize to everyone listening that submission is a beautiful thing.

In fact, Christ perfectly submitted to the Father's will, and that did not mean that Jesus is any less divine than the Father. And so I can look at someone and say, I know, sister in Christ, you are not called as an ordained minister no matter how much you love theology, no matter how much you love proclaiming truth.

That is reserved only for called-out men on the Lord's Day in the gathered congregation of the saints, the Lord's people. And I can say that not based on me being able to see hearts, but based on the inspired Word of God.

So I hope we look at context. And like Mr. Jared said, he appealed to prophecy. I would look at prophecy in its generic sense as being able to proclaim truth. But here is the kicker. In what context? Because Paul is making a transcultural point, something that is universal for all time, how the Lord's church is to be structured, how we are to administer the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper.

And it's all under men that are called out by God to oversee the flock. Thanks so much, Chris.

Okay, and I'm assuming that you're letting your last 30 seconds go by.

Yes, sir.

Okay, we're going to our first commercial break. When we return from the break, each of our debaters will have eight minutes for rebuttal time, starting again with Pastor Jared K. Henry of Mackey Church of the Nazarene, and then followed by Pastor Jeremiah Nortier of 125 Church in Johnsboro, Arkansas.

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So please go to royaldiadem .com for all your jewelry needs and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with day number one of a two-day debate between Nazarene Jared K. Henry and Reformed Baptist Jeremiah Nortier.

The debate thesis is the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable. And Pastor Jared K. Henry is affirming the thesis, and Pastor Jeremiah Nortier is denying the thesis.

And we've now arrived at the point in the debate where each of our debaters is having an eight-minute rebuttal to what the other debater had to say. And we're going to start with Jared K. Henry. You may have eight minutes for a rebuttal, brother.

Thank you. I want to start by just kind of making sure that I'm on the same page with Brother Jeremiah in terms of terms and what they mean, I guess. So the thesis being the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

I'm not suggesting that that is universal, that all women are always in authority over all men in every situation. But I do believe that there are some leadership positions. So to clarify that authority, so one of the things that is often conflated in this when we talk about this is we conflate the authority in the home with authority in the church.

We're not really talking today, although they are maybe related in some ways, we're not addressing authority in the home. We're addressing authority in the church. So that's one thing that would play into roles in the home versus quality and roles in the church.

I'll give you an illustration of this that maybe is different, would help frame this. If you had, let's say for the sake of the illustration, you had a male pastor and his parents attended the church.

I think the biblical mandate is clear that children obey your parents in the Lord and that you honor and obey, submit to your parent parental authority to some degree. And so could someone be a pastor and have their parents in the church?

Well, yes, because in terms of family dynamics, there is definitely a certain kind of honor and submission and things that took place there. But in the life of the church, that would be a bit different because in some ways, the parents would submit to the authority of their child.

And to some degree, yes, age would play into that. But the illustration simply is pointing out that there are lots of different ways in which authority is manifest in situations. Family, work, can a political leader, you know, if we were in a monarchy, could a teacher sit under the authority of a pastor in that regard?

So authority sometimes should be specific to certain roles in certain circumstances. And sometimes there's mutual submission. I might have authority in one area. You might have authority in another area.

And we would have to mutually submit to one another in those different roles, whether they're family or work or government or church. We have to figure out those dynamics. So that's a dynamic, I guess, that goes on there.

And then also the reality is submission that I think Brother Jeremiah referred to, wives submitting to your husband, is not universal. All right. So it's not a universal submission. It's a woman submitting to her husband, not all women submitting to all men.

It's a woman who is in covenant marriage relationship with that man submitting to that man. All right. So where do we get the idea that women can have authority? And by the way, I think that anyone who stands behind the pulpit has authority.

That is a position of authority, regardless of whether you have a title, to give someone authority publicly in that way is a position of authority. So I go back to Acts chapter two. Brother Jeremiah made reference to the fact that in the Old Testament, there were some women.

He's claiming that they just filled a vacuum where men didn't stand up. That may or may not be true, but God still called them to those kind of positions. But I think that that's something that probably I would claim the opposite, that the Old Testament in some ways was probably more restrictive with some of those things.

And in the New Testament, actually, the Old Testament, Joel prophesied that in the last days, you know, the Lord declares, I'm going to pour out my spirit on your sons and your daughters. All right. So this is going to be the standard in some ways that that someone's gender is not determined, whether they will preach, which is to prophesy is not an informal, just sharing some random truth.

But it's a more, I think, firm position of authority saying I'm going to preach the word. And that's different than just be telling you something, giving you counsel or advice or whatever privately. And so that and then Acts chapter two, that's how they explain Pentecost.

This is what's taking place. The spirit's been poured out. So people are going to preach in that kind of way. Not just a woman was at the tomb and saw the empty tomb and then went and shared that. That's not preaching.

That's not a position of authority. That's communicating information that is true, but it's not prophecy. It's not preaching. So women speaking in authority within the church. First Corinthians chapter 11, I think Brother Jeremiah referred to that as well.

And he made some statements about that. In verse five, it says every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered and it goes on to make it. It's making a statement about her head being uncovered.

But this is the same letter that Paul is giving some restriction. Now, he's saying that if you're praying or prophesying with your head uncovered. Now, we could we could debate maybe the issue of head covering.

But I think the larger point is here that they are in a public sense and in the life of the church speaking to prophesying, preaching the word and of the prophet is in the temple. She's not, you know, just privately with another woman or another person.

But there is a bit of formality in that. So the issue of women being silent, I think, you know, we can't decide that that silence is only about preaching. Because First Timothy chapter two is he's saying, you know, they are to be silent, period.

There's there's no teaching, no preaching, no talking. They can't even ask questions. If they want to ask the question, they need to do that at home. I don't know. I do know there are some churches that actually adhere to that, that require women to be absolutely silent from the time that they entered the church as a formal gathering of the church building.

But I don't know many churches that actually do that. Most churches would recognize that those are specific scenarios. Also, in First Timothy chapter two, before the scripture that's usually referenced, it talks about having golden and braided hair.

And we understand that there's a principle here that may be specific, but but there's there's more principle at play. So, you know, but we don't bar people from probably I mean, maybe Jeremiah, but Jeremiah Church does that, but bar women from braiding their hair.

So there's there's a bit of, I think, context that says it's easy to say some issues are very cut and dry. But when there seem to be a mixed witness, it takes a little bit more discernment and a little bit more time kind of working through some of the scripture.

And if women are leading in some cases, we can't say conclusively, there's never a time when a woman is called of God and has authority over a man. And so that's that's why I'm in the affirmative.

OK, and now we are giving the opportunity for Pastor Jeremiah Nortier to have an eight minute rebuttal. You may begin, brother.

I want to start by saying we let women braid their hair at 12th Bible Church. Now, I probably will start in reverse order. I tried to take as many good notes to your arguments, Mr. Jarrett, as I could.

But I do want to start with that. I do realize there's a broader principle and context in First Timothy chapter two. And actually, I really think this works for my case, because when Paul says that is our for in every place, he's obviously talking about the churches where they gather.

The men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger and quarreling. Likewise, the women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty. And here's what I would submit to you to really think about in self-control.

So there's a heart matter issue going on with the Ephesian women. And whatever you point to about what potentially is going on, I will ask you in return, does that still in principle happen today? Because if the answer is yes, you're not really making a case how this is circumstantial, that this is for the first century or for the Ephesian women.