July 10, 2025 Show: Jeremiah Nortier vs. Jared K. Henry Debate on the Ordination of Women (Day 1 of 2)

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 10th day of July 2025.

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I am absolutely thrilled about today's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program, because it's something that I've been trying to arrange and host literally for decades, but I have finally been given the opportunity by our gracious and benevolent

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Lord to arrange today's debate. Today's debate is the first day of a two -day debate.

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The debate will be held today and tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, the same topic.

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And the topic we are addressing today is the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

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That is the debate thesis, and we have two evangelical

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Christian pastors to debate this. There is no liberal involved in this particular debate, even though conservatives and liberals disagree over this.

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Today's debate does not feature a liberal debater, and we have affirming this thesis statement, the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable, is

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Jared K. Henry. And Jared K. Henry is a pastor of the

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Mackie Church of the Nazarene in Mackie, Indiana. The website of that church is

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MackieNaz .org, M -A -C -K -E -Y -N -A -Z .org. And first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jared K.

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Henry. Thank you so much for having me. It's good to be with you, and I'm looking forward to our discussion today.

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And to oppose the thesis, the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable, is my friend

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Pastor Jeremiah Nortier. Pastor Jeremiah Nortier is a pastor of the

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Twelve Five Church located in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

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The website of that church is TheWord12TheNumberFiveChurch .com.

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That's TheWord12TheNumberFiveChurch .com. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back as well to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jeremiah Nortier.

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Chris, it's been a hot minute, so thanks for having me back on. It is my pleasure.

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And we are going to begin our debate with 10 -minute opening statements from each of our participants.

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And since he is affirming the debate thesis, we are going to start with a 10 -minute opening remark from Pastor Jared K.

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Henry. And you may begin, brother. All right, so I just want to start by saying thank you for the opportunity.

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Thank you for allowing me to represent what I hold as what

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I believe to be a biblical viewpoint. And obviously, we're going to interpret something differently during our conversation here.

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But just to put a few things out on the table to start with is

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I believe in the authority of Scripture to speak to these issues. I think that apart from Scripture, we don't have any right to really speak to those issues.

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So I think that's important to highlight that I want to come from a biblical standpoint. I'm a part of the

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Church of the Nazarene. We ordained women before it was a liberal thing to do.

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Before women had the right to vote, the Church of the Nazarene actually recognized that God called women to specific roles in the life of the church.

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And so we were doing that beforehand. So I'm not a proponent of feminist ideology here.

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That's not what I'm trying to do. I'm not advocating for some kind of cultural expression of women's rights.

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But rather, I am advocating for a what I believe to be a biblical viewpoint that God calls women to ministry.

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I think in the olden... So here's four points just to summarize my perspective.

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One, the Old and the New Testament give examples of women who held a number of different positions in the life of the people of God.

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They prophesied. They prayed in church. They exercised authority over men and did so under the leadership of the

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Holy Spirit at God's call. Number two, there were some instances when women in particular circumstances were not allowed to lead or to teach in that setting.

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And I recognize that. That scripture will probably be referred to today. And I would welcome that.

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And so there are some situations and some scenarios in which women would be restricted in some context.

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Number three, but the fact remains that there are multiple biblical examples of women who prophesied, who were used by God.

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And there's more of those examples than there are the particular specific restrictions.

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So neither the restrictions to teach or the encouragement to preach actually apply to every woman, obviously.

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And we're talking about ordination, which simply means God's call. So we're recognizing that not every woman is called to preach because she just wants to do that or chooses to do that.

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Just like not every man is called to preach, that there is a process that the church of Jesus Christ goes through to discern the call of God.

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And that's what we're talking about, the church discerning, did God call this person to preach, to lead, to do those kind of things?

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So there are some women, I believe, who are called to preach or prophesy or whatever you want to do to lead in those kinds of ways.

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And there are some women who are not, just like there are some men or some women. However, I'm not advocating for some kind of affirmative action based upon gender.

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I'm not advocating that there should be 50 percent men and 50 percent women. I'm advocating for what

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I believe to be the tenor of Scripture. In the last days, God will pour out a spirit on your sons and your daughters, and they'll prophesy.

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As the spirit called these individuals, that's the responsibility of the church. And thus, who am

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I to tell God who he can or cannot call? Number four, finally, the responsibility of the church to identify those people, whether male or female, who have been called by God and led.

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And it's obvious that they have gifts and graces and the anointing of the Holy Spirit in their life to operate in these positions of authority or leadership or however you'd like to describe them.

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Do those individuals not just have they jumped through some human hurdles of education or, you know, that kind of a thing?

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But is it evident that the spirit of God is working through them so that they have those leadership skills?

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So that's ultimately, I think that you can conclude from Scripture that there are some prohibitions against women in ministry, women preaching, women even speaking in certain contexts in the life of the church.

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However, I don't think that that's a universal statement, and I think Scripture bears witness to that as well, because God does call and use women to speak and to lead.

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All right, so that's kind of the thrust of my biblical perspective on that.

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And you do have a little less than five minutes to go if you want to continue. Well, I'll let

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I'll just I'll abdicate my time and maybe save it for responding to some other things. OK, and we are now going to allow

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Jeremiah Nortier to have his 10 minute opening statement.

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OK, thank you so much, both Mr. Jared and Chris, for having me on.

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So I am taking the negative to the thesis statement, which, once again, I want to read says the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

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So I don't want to just directly go against what Mr. Jared said yet.

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We'll have rebuttals here in a minute. So I want to show why I think biblically we can know with certainty that this is not true.

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And I want to begin with the words of the Apostle Paul. Now, remember, the thesis says explicitly that women can be ordained and have authority over men in Christ's church.

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That is acceptable. But Paul says, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

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Rather, she is to remain quiet. Now, that's just one verse in a whole context.

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But Paul is building his case to say there is a way that the church is to be set up and used as a means of grace for the saints every

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Lord's Day. And I want to contend that Paul is not talking about something just unique to the first century with the women in Ephesus and the false teachers.

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Maybe we can touch on some of that. But First Timothy is rooted in a timeless principle. And chapter three, he even says, this is for the churches.

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I'm writing these things to you so that if I delay, you may know how you ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church.

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And so I don't want to say that a difference in roles and difference in design between men and women is a bad thing.

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Just because women are designed to be submissive and not to have authority over men.

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There is a beauty to that that is rooted, Paul says, in creation.

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He goes on to say, for Adam was formed first, then Eve. Now, there is something going on here with Adam being created first.

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He is the authority over God handing him dominion over all of creation.

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But in the Genesis account, it wasn't enough for Adam to be alone.

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As he was naming all the animals, he did not have a suitable helpmate for himself.

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And God brings to him a helper for him. And so she was not with him equal in authority, but he was to love her by leading.

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And woman was to lovingly submit in helping him in this task.

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So this is something that is transcultural, meaning this is a universal, timeless principle that Paul is giving us because he roots his argument in, essentially,

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Genesis chapter 2. And so I believe the apostle Paul sees beauty in this complementary role that women have with male authority.

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And, like I said, we look at the word submission. I think we have a culture and we have external ideologies that says maybe that means that women would be lesser if she were to submit to a man.

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I'd like to submit that that is the furthest thing from the apostle Paul's mind. In fact, in 1

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Corinthians chapter 11, he goes on to say that the head of Christ is

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God and the head of a husband is Christ, but the head of his wife is her husband.

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And so in 1 Corinthians 11, he goes on to say that the image of the glory of God is man, but the woman is the glory of man.

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I would like to submit to you, women by design have a beauty that causes mankind to shine.

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So there's a beauty with being designed differently. The apostle Peter talks about how there is not just a difference in roles between men and women, but as a different formed vessel, she has limitations that she is to lovingly submit to her husband.

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And as we're talking about women making mankind shine, this is very important to understanding the ecclesiology of how

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Christ is building his church in the new covenant. As Mr. Jared pointed out, how there is examples of women in the

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Old Testament, I would say, you know, having these leadership roles,

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I would say, number one, we are under a different covenant. So we might find principles of continuity between Old Testament, Old Covenant and New Covenant.

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But in many of these cases, the fact, you know, you see a judge like Deborah, in many ways, this is a judgment against Israel because there are no men standing up for what

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God has called them to do. And so as we look at continuity and discontinuity between the

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Old Covenant and New Covenant, something else we see is prophecy. Prophecy in its broad meaning just means to declare revelatory truth.

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And I want to be a firm advocate that women in the church service can definitely proclaim truth along with the rest of the body.

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There's many times regulated throughout the church service where we get to sing truth, where we get to declare the truths of Scripture back and forth.

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But as we go back to Paul's argument in First Timothy, something that is reserved for the overseer, the office of overseer, pastor, elder, this is exclusively to be for men.

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That's why Paul goes on in chapter three, he talks about the office of overseer. And he goes on to say that qualifications of being above reproach is you must be a husband of one wife and able to teach.

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And so this kind of teaching is teaching sound doctrine with precision to feed the flock.

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This is reserved for men. In fact, it would be improper for a woman who is able to teach in many other contexts.

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We see throughout the book of Acts women prophesying and sharing the gospel. We see that even the gospel accounts.

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We see women proclaiming that Christ is risen. This is not within the context of a local church gathering.

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And the pastor teacher is reserved for someone who is ordained and called by God.

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I actually appreciated Mr. Jared talking about, you know, ordained means to be called by God. But then

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Jared said, who am I to talk about if somebody else is called by God? Well, first Timothy chapter three talks about there is an internal calling that God works into the heart of an individual.

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But there's also an external affirmation of someone who displays and aspires to this role.

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And it's only within the qualification of that male authority. It's not that I look at a woman and say, you're not fit to be a leader, an overseer, a pastor, and preaching from a context of declaring

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God's truth to the flock. God has already declared these things in unambiguous terms.

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And so what I anticipate that we see today is how we have principles of methodology of hermeneutics and how we interpret

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Scripture. And so I think it is striking to see that when Paul says he does not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority, this is going back to the very foundation of creation.

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What we notice that is rooted in creation is male headship or male authority.

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This is not a perversion of the fall. Like I said, what was designed was for a husband to have authority over his wife, but to lovingly lead her.

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What is distorted by the fall is a husband with his authority is typically passive and allows his wife to do things and has her bear responsibilities that he is meant to bear, not her.

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She is designed to take what her husband gives her. The husband works hard, he builds the house, and the wife makes it a home.

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That is why we see such a strong parallel between marriage and the church. And so I just want to emphasize to everyone listening that submission is a beautiful thing.

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In fact, Christ perfectly submitted to the Father's will, and that did not mean that Jesus is any less divine than the

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Father. And so I can look at someone and say, I know, sister in Christ, you are not called as an ordained minister, no matter how much you love theology, no matter how much you love proclaiming truth.

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That is reserved only for called out men on the Lord's Day in the gathered congregation of the saints, the

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Lord's people. And I can say that not based on me being able to see hearts, but based on the inspired word of God.

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So I hope we look at context. And like Mr. Jared said, you know, he appealed to prophecy.

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I would look at prophecy in its generic sense as being able to proclaim truth. But here is the kicker.

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In what context? Because Paul is making a transcultural point, something that is universal for all time, how the

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Lord's church is to be structured, how we are to administer the sacraments, baptism and the

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Lord's Supper. And it's all under men that are called out by God to oversee the flock.

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Thanks so much, Chris. Okay. And I'm assuming that you're letting your last 30 seconds go by.

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Yes, sir. Okay, we're going to our first commercial break. When we return from the break, each of our debaters will have eight minutes for rebuttal time, starting again with Pastor Jared K.

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Henry of Mackey Church of the Nazarene, and then followed by Pastor Jeremiah Nortier of Twelve Five Church in Johnsboro, Arkansas.

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for all your jewelry needs and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with day number one of a two -day debate between Nazarene Jared K.

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Henry and Reformed Baptist Jeremiah Nortier. The debate thesis is the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

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And Pastor Jared K. Henry is affirming the thesis, and Pastor Jeremiah Nortier is denying the thesis.

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And we've now arrived at the point in the debate where each of our debaters is having an eight -minute rebuttal to what the other debater had to say.

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And we're going to start with Jared K. Henry. You may have eight minutes for a rebuttal, brother.

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Thank you. I want to start by just kind of making sure that I'm on the same page with Brother Jeremiah in terms of terms and what they mean,

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I guess. So the thesis being the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

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I'm not suggesting that that is universal, that all women are always in authority over all men in every situation.

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But I do believe that there are some leadership positions, to clarify that authority.

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So one of the things that is often conflated in this when we talk about this is we conflate the authority in the home with authority in the church.

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We're not really talking today, although they are maybe related in some ways, we're not addressing authority in the home.

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We're addressing authority in the church. So that's one thing. That would play into roles in the home versus quality and roles in the church.

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All right. I'll give you an illustration of this that maybe is different, would help frame this. If you had, let's say, for the sake of the illustration, you had a male pastor and his parents attended the church.

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I think the biblical mandate is clear that children obey your parents in the

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Lord and that you honor and obey, submit to your parental authority to some degree.

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And so could someone be a pastor and have their parents in the church? Well, yes, because in terms of family dynamics, there is definitely a certain kind of honor and submission and things that took place there.

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But in the life of the church, that would be a bit different because in some ways, the parents would submit to the authority of their child.

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And to some degree, yes, age would play into that. But the illustration simply is pointing out that there are lots of different ways in which authority is manifest in situations.

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Family, work, can a political leader, you know, if we were in a monarchy, could a teacher sit under the authority of a pastor in that regard?

37:09

So authority sometimes should be specific to certain roles in certain circumstances.

37:16

And sometimes there's mutual submission. I might have authority in one area.

37:22

You might have authority in another area. And we would have to mutually submit to one another in those different roles, whether they're family or work or government or church.

37:32

We have to figure out those dynamics. So that's a dynamic, I guess, that goes on there.

37:38

And then also the reality is submission that I think

37:44

Brother Jeremiah referred to, wives submitting to your husband, is not universal. All right.

37:49

So it's not a universal submission. It's a woman submitting to her husband, not all women submitting to all men.

38:00

It's a woman who is in covenant marriage relationship with that man submitting to that man.

38:08

All right. So where do we get the idea that women can have authority?

38:13

And by the way, I think that anyone who stands behind the pulpit has authority, that that is a position of authority, regardless of whether you have a title, to give someone authority publicly in that way is a position of authority.

38:32

So I go back to Acts chapter two. Brother Jeremiah made reference to the fact that in the Old Testament, there were some women.

38:40

He's claiming that they just filled a vacuum where men didn't stand up. That may or may not be true, but God still called them to those kind of positions.

38:50

But I think that that's something that probably I would claim the opposite, that the

38:58

Old Testament in some ways was probably more restrictive with some of those things.

39:04

And in the New Testament, actually, the Old Testament, Joel prophesied that in the last days, you know, the

39:11

Lord declares, I'm going to pour out my spirit on your sons and your daughters. All right. So this is going to be the standard in some ways, that someone's gender is not determined whether they will preach, which is to prophesy is not an informal just sharing some random truth.

39:31

But it's a more, I think, firm position of authority saying

39:36

I'm going to preach the word. And that's different than just be telling you something, giving you counsel or advice or whatever privately.

39:46

And so that and then Acts chapter two, that's how they explain Pentecost. This is what's taking place.

39:52

The spirit's been poured out. So people are going to preach in that kind of way. Not just a woman was at the tomb and saw the empty tomb and then went and shared that.

40:01

That's not preaching. That's not a position of authority. That's communicating information that is true, but it's not prophecy.

40:08

It's not preaching. So women speaking in authority within the church. First Corinthians chapter 11,

40:14

I think Brother Jeremiah referred to that as well. And he made some statements about that.

40:19

In verse five, it says every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered, and it goes on to make it it's making a statement about her head being uncovered.

40:28

But this is the same letter that Paul is giving some restriction. Now, he's saying that if you're praying or prophesying with your head uncovered.

40:36

Now, we could we could debate maybe the issue of head covering. But I think the larger point is here that they are in a public sense and in the life of the church, speaking to prophesying, preaching the word.

40:49

And the prophetess is in the temple. She's not, you know, just privately with another woman or another person.

40:57

But there is a bit of formality in that. So the issue of women being silent, I think, you know, we can't decide that that silence is only about preaching because First Timothy chapter two is is is he saying, you know, they could be silent, period.

41:14

There's there's no teaching, no preaching, no talking. They can't even ask questions.

41:19

If they want to ask the question, they need to do that at home. I don't know. I do know there are some churches that actually adhere to that, that require women to be absolutely silent from the time that they entered the church as a formal gathering of the church building.

41:34

But I don't know many churches that actually do that. Most churches would recognize that those are specific scenarios.

41:40

Also in First Timothy chapter two, before the scripture that's usually referenced, it talks about having gold and and braided hair.

41:48

And we understand that there's a principle here that may be specific, but but there's there's more principle at play.

41:55

So, you know, but we don't bar people from probably I mean, maybe Jeremiah, but Jeremiah Church does that, but bar women from braiding their hair.

42:04

So there's there's a bit of, I think, context that says it's easy to say some issues are very cut and dry.

42:13

But when there seem to be a mixed witness, it takes a little bit more discernment and a little bit more time kind of working through some of the scripture.

42:25

And if women are leading in some cases, we can't say conclusively, there's never a time when a woman is called of God and has authority over a man.

42:37

And so that's that's why I'm in the affirmative. OK, and now we are giving the opportunity for Pastor Jeremiah Nortier to have an eight minute rebuttal.

42:48

You may begin, brother. I want to start by saying we let women braid their hair at Twelfth Night Church.

42:58

I probably will start in reverse order. I tried to take as many good notes to your arguments,

43:04

Mr. Jared, as I could. But I do want to start with that. I do realize there's a broader principle and context in First Timothy chapter two.

43:10

And actually, I really think this works for my case because when Paul says that is our for in every place, he's obviously talking about the churches where they gather.

43:18

The men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger and quarreling. Likewise, the women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty.

43:25

And here's, Jared, what I would submit to you to really think about in self -control. So there's a heart matter issue going on with the

43:33

Ephesian women. And whatever you point to about what potentially is going on,

43:38

I will ask you in return, does that still in principle happen today? Because if the answer is yes, you're not really making a case how this is circumstantial, that this is for the first century or for the

43:50

Ephesian women. But rather, Paul says in this present evil age, he talks about Ephesians and the rest of his letters, that we are always going to war against the flesh.

44:01

And it's going to be an eternal struggle, women trying to go against their

44:06

God -ordained role, the way that they were designed. Now, I think I was very clear in my opening statement that we're not conflating authority.

44:14

I'm talking about, according to my negating the thesis, I'm talking about a very specific authority in the office of overseer proclaiming and rightly handling the word of truth, proclaiming or preaching in that context.

44:30

Paul says he does not permit not wives, but women, period.

44:36

And then he makes his case in Genesis why that is the case. Something else you said earlier,

44:42

I think this maybe reveals a big divide between us. So I'm a pastor for church.

44:47

If my parents come to 12 .5, do I submit to them? No, I'm not under their authority like I was when

44:54

I grew up. Why? Because I leave and plead to my spouse. Now, do I love them and honor them as being my parents, as I would other

45:03

Christians? And is there some kind of mutual submission? Well, yeah, but everyone knows what we're talking about.

45:09

Who gets to be an overseer that contends for sound doctrine to the saints?

45:15

I get you can go to Old Testament principles and prophecy and Acts chapter two. Those are not going to help us because when you look at the semantic domain of prophecy,

45:24

BDAG, highest respected lexical source, says to proclaim an inspired revelation.

45:30

This is what we see, you know, Priscilla and Aquila. She's helping a brother in doctrine, not in a church setting.

45:36

That's the whole point here with First Timothy chapter two in the whole epistle. This is talking about now, you know, you said maybe

45:43

I'm conflating in the home with the church. I'm really not, because like you said, there are related principles.

45:50

And it goes back to what Paul said, the household of God, which is the church. The church is familial.

45:57

That's why there's ongoing authority and submission going on. And he does not say wives.

46:03

He says, I do not permit a woman, you point to any woman. I do not permit her to teach in a certain context and exercise authority.

46:13

Paul builds this case as he's talking to Timothy that this is an overseer. This is someone who labors to preach and teach the word.

46:23

Guess who that's not for? That ain't for women. But that's not talking about evangelism.

46:28

That's not talking about certain cases in the Old Testament where God used women to accomplish his will, to judge the men and show them that they are like their father,

46:38

Adam, who was passive and was not submitting to the will of God. And so here in a little bit, something

46:43

I want you to think about, we're going to get into. I want to know, if you affirm male authority over women,

46:52

I'm curious, in the home life. So what does that mean?

46:57

Because that does not mean, if you affirm male authority, husband over wife, they are not equal in all respects.

47:04

And if you affirm that, great, because I want to say that's the same kind of principle that Paul is making in the church setting.

47:13

Now, he is saying that all of this is grounded in Adam. He was created first.

47:19

Now, he's not making the point that they were married. He's talking about the point of creation.

47:26

So I don't think we are talking past each other. I think everybody understands that my position, negating yours, is the authority to preach the word, sound doctrine from the pulpit to God's people is reserved for males only.

47:43

And people are just tuning in. These are the verses that Paul is saying with no unambiguous talk.

47:50

He's being very clear that he in no way permits a woman, not just wives, to teach. He's not just saying women that don't feel the call.

47:57

He's saying that there is a principle of submission that women have by design.

48:02

And so in the church setting, when it comes to leaders and the saints, the members that make up that household, women are to take the submissive role by being quiet, learning, and being taught.

48:15

And I would agree that this is something that the New Covenant has more in abundance, that women can be learned and trained in sound doctrine so they can disciple their children.

48:26

That Titus chapter 2 says there is a context where women can teach. It ain't to men, but it's to other women in how to love their husbands, how to build the home, how to take care of it, and how to continue to do good works all to the glory of God.

48:43

So once again, we're not talking past each other. I am saying in a very specific way, the person that shepherds the household, really what this is going to come down to is who he thinks can fill the office of overseer.

48:56

Because a lot of times in these conversations, I hear, well, if the elders are okay with the woman preaching, well, she's still under their authority.

49:04

Problem with that is that there is very clear qualifications of who is to be an overseer.

49:13

And I really think at the very heart of this in the last minute, Paul is saying it belongs to men.

49:18

Why? Well, in Genesis, you have Satan coming into the garden, and he doesn't go to Adam.

49:26

He goes to the one who is second in command. He goes to the helper and tempts her with the lust of flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, and says, hey, if you partake of this tree, then you can be like God.

49:42

And so she—and we're not conflating the home marriage with the principle that Paul is teaching with the leadership of the church.

49:50

No, this is a principle point where Eve usurped her position, her role, and she usurped

50:00

Adam. This is what's happening when women step into the pulpit. They are buying into the same lie that they can go around the male headship in the church.

50:11

That is for the man who is to be a husband of one wife. When a woman comes up there, whether their professed elders say that they can or she just says it's an internal feeling given to her by God, we can go back to God's ultimate standard and say, actually, women are to take the beautiful role of submission that represents the church, the bride of Christ, and that is a beautiful thing.

50:37

Thanks so much. Well, thank you. And we are going to be entering into another commercial break momentarily.

50:45

I am going to invite our audience to submit questions via email in the event that we have time when our two debaters are concluded with all the sessions that they have allotted to them during this day number one of this two -day debate.

51:07

And if we don't have time, perhaps we will have time, God willing, tomorrow, for day number two, to include those questions at the end.

51:17

So submit your question to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

51:25

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Please make your question very brief.

51:33

Do not type out a sermon for us to read. And we would like you to also specify who the question is for, whether it's

51:45

Pastor Jared K. Henry or Pastor Jeremiah Nortier.

51:51

And I would really especially love to hear from those who would agree with Pastor Jared K.

52:01

Henry, not because I am favoring his opinion, but because I know the Iron Sherpa and Zion audience is likely dominated by those who are believers in complementarianism or patriarchy and would be on the side of Pastor Jeremiah Nortier in this debate.

52:22

So I'm hoping to hear primarily from those who agree with Pastor Jared Henry that women may be ordained into positions of leadership over men in Christ's church.

52:36

And we will hopefully have an even number of questions if we have any time for them at all.

52:41

Don't be too disappointed if we don't. Also, I just wanted to quickly mention to you folks, because of the horrific devastation and loss of life and still over 100 souls missing in Kerrville, Texas and surrounding areas,

53:01

I wanted to give you the website if you care to provide support for that area.

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Kerrvillebiblechurch .org forward slash flood dash relief. That's Kerrville, K -E -R -R -villebiblechurch .org

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forward slash flood dash relief. And if we have time at the end, we'll repeat that.

53:30

So as I said, we are going into our commercial break, our midway commercial break.

53:35

And please don't go away because we still got half of the debate for day number one of this two -day debate left to go.

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01:06:37

Welcome back. Before I return to our debate, this is day number one of the two -day debate that we are hosting here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:06:48

And the theme, if you just tuned us in, is the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

01:07:00

And we have Nazarene pastor Jared K. Henry affirming the debate thesis and Reformed Baptist Jeremiah Nortier denying the thesis.

01:07:12

And when we return to the debate, each of these men are going to have 12 minutes to cross -examine the other debater.

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And we're going to start with Jeremiah Nortier this time. But before I return to the debate,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put, I need a church in the subject line. And we are now back to the day number one of this two -day debate, and we are going to start with the

01:10:24

Reformed Baptist, Jeremiah Nortier, cross -examining the

01:10:29

Nazarene Jared K. Henry for 12 minutes. And once again,

01:10:35

Jeremiah Nortier is denying the thesis, the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

01:10:45

So, Pastor Jeremiah Nortier, you now have 12 minutes to cross -examine

01:10:51

Pastor Jared K. Henry. And keep in mind, folks, just in case you weren't clear on this beforehand, during the cross -examinations, the one cross -examining the other is only to ask questions.

01:11:05

He is not to preach or teach or filibuster.

01:11:12

He's only to ask questions, and the one answering questions is only to do that, answer the questions.

01:11:19

The only question he can ask of his own is if he wants a question repeated or explained.

01:11:28

And he is also, the one answering the question, is not to preach, teach, or have a filibuster going on.

01:11:38

He's simply to answer the question being asked of him. And now your 12 minutes will begin,

01:11:46

Pastor Jeremiah Nortier. Sorry, you are on mute.

01:11:56

Sorry about the timer. Can y 'all hear me okay? Yes, we hear you perfect. I can hear you. All right.

01:12:01

Well, thank you for that, Chris. Jared, the opening seven verses of 1 Timothy 3, how many times would you say we see the pronouns he or his?

01:12:13

Well, I'm not sure that I've counted that. Sure. Well, there's many of them. There's roughly 10, depending on how you count it.

01:12:20

But what I wanted that to show is the context here of my question. Paul says that the office of overseer must be able to teach.

01:12:29

Obviously, he's talking about in the church. He says this is to be the husband of one wife, obviously in marriage.

01:12:37

Does Paul intend to communicate that a woman can meet this qualification? I think

01:12:43

I don't know what his ultimate intention was. That would be hard for me to guess.

01:12:49

But I think that in context of all of Paul's writings, he often refers to men and women in masculine ways.

01:12:59

So when he says brothers, I don't think that brothers, I write this to you. I don't think that he's excluding women.

01:13:06

So in this context, in this context. Well, the context has to be taken in all of Paul.

01:13:13

So I'm saying that he often refers to in a language that is male dominated.

01:13:21

So if I were to modify the question in this immediate context of these seven verses, is there anything in the immediate context that would let us say when he says the husband of one wife, a woman can meet that qualification?

01:13:36

I think that he's simply coming from a male dominated language and making reference to the fact that they need to be married to only one person.

01:13:46

This is a prohibition against polygamy. Yes, I think that that's the point that he's trying to make.

01:13:52

Gotcha. OK, so to kind of steel man your position, you're saying he's communicating a principle between two people, but the genders is not the specifics of what he's trying to communicate.

01:14:03

That's what I'm saying. OK. OK, follow up question to that, Mr. Jaron. Now, this question is a little bit more about methodology and hermeneutics.

01:14:12

Jesus says he defines marriage as a sacred union between male singular and female singular.

01:14:18

But you have LGBTQ advocates that interpret this to mean the principle of two or more consenting adults.

01:14:27

Do you think this is a valid way to interpret Scripture? Absolutely not. I think that's a totally different the clarity and the importance of the issue of marriage in.

01:14:40

But why can't it just be the principle? Why can't they use your argument and say, but the principle is just between two or more consenting adults.

01:14:47

Why? Why would you put gender in the sacred union of marriage? That's they might would accuse you of being too narrow minded.

01:14:56

Do you think so? Well, they probably would accuse me of being narrow minded. That's OK.

01:15:02

But I think the point of what Jesus was trying to clarify was what marriage specifically was all.

01:15:08

Why would it not be? Well, let me let me answer your question. Go ahead. Go ahead. Paul in First Timothy chapter three is not trying to define marriage.

01:15:18

He's trying to clarify that an overseer should be someone who has one spouse, not polygamy.

01:15:28

I think this is a now for us in our culture. And I appreciate the answer.

01:15:34

You answered that sufficiently. So Paul is actually just echoing Jesus's definition of marriage.

01:15:39

Now, I want you to I want you to tell me, do you agree it's the same logic? Someone who's pro LGBTQ or gay marriage advocate.

01:15:47

They are actually saying the same principle that that you just made when Paul says the husband of one wife.

01:15:53

You said that's just the principle between two people. Why stop at two people? Why couldn't the

01:15:58

LGBTQ community just say it's just the consent of multiple people? Do you actually have an argument against that?

01:16:08

Yeah, I think I'm trying to share that argument. So the my the thesis is that he doesn't say he's saying this is a husband of one wife.

01:16:19

In other words, this is not a polygamous relationship. This is not multiple people.

01:16:26

And the assumption Paul's coming at is already biblical marriage.

01:16:31

So man and a woman. Jesus said that he's talking about a principle of two people that a woman could fulfill.

01:16:39

And I'm saying that's not what Paul's saying here. And that's not what Jesus said in marriage. And you have the same identical argument as the

01:16:47

LGBTQ crowd that would say, yeah, Jesus is just communicating a principle point.

01:16:54

And I don't think that would communicate a strong point because y 'all share the same logic. Do you not do you not see that?

01:17:01

I think I think the issue, you know, we're not really debating LGBT. I would assume that we are like minded on the

01:17:08

LGBT issue. And so I think that we have a different hermeneutic. That's the issue here.

01:17:16

Yeah, we yeah, well, certainly. Well, that's why we came to different because you're saying because you're women. You said that women can fulfill this qualification to be a husband of one wife.

01:17:29

You say, yes, women can be an elder, even though that Paul is painfully clear that this is for a one woman man.

01:17:40

Yes, I'm saying that the thrust of what Paul is laying out can be fulfilled by a woman who's called of God.

01:17:51

So question, when we go back to marriage, why can't the LGBTQ plus say the same thing that the thrust of a homosexual couple can fulfill the sacred union of marriage because they are consenting under the banner of love?

01:18:07

That's the same argument that you're making. This is my last question about that. Yeah, my.

01:18:14

And here's why, because I'm not I'm not interpreting singular issues or important issues like what we're talking about,

01:18:24

LGBT issues. I don't I don't interpret those based on one verse. I interpret that based upon the whole canon of Scripture, Old and New Testament.

01:18:34

And in light of that, there simply is no argument for LGBT practice in any way.

01:18:41

It is always referred to in Scripture in the negative.

01:18:46

It's never even referred to neutrally. The difference in the issues is that.

01:18:52

Well, let me finish. The difference in the issues is that the call of women in ministry is one that there is a what seems to be conflicting witness of Scripture.

01:19:03

There are times women speak with authority in the life of the church and sometimes when it's prohibited.

01:19:09

Yeah, they could just appeal to your argument as the principal. So my next question is, do you think that.

01:19:15

Do you think that male authority over women is a bad thing, especially within marriage?

01:19:22

I'm sorry, I didn't hear the first part of the question. So would you affirm that there are contexts, especially like marriage, where the husband has

01:19:31

God given authority over his wife? I believe what

01:19:36

Scripture says about women submitting to their husband. Yes. OK, so what was the result of the fall, in your opinion, and Genesis chapter three.

01:19:47

Specifically, Genesis 316, where the desire would be for the the woman to rule over her husband.

01:19:56

What do you think that means as a result of the fall? Does that assume that Adam had direct headship over his wife?

01:20:06

You mean before? Before the fall or after the fall or what? Yeah, so what do you think that means as a result of the fall happening in Genesis 316?

01:20:18

Let me look up Genesis for you. Genesis 316 says, the woman, he said,

01:20:24

I will surely multiply your pain and childbearing in pain. You shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.

01:20:34

And so I think I think that the result of the fall for the woman in that case is that her pain and childbearing is multiply.

01:20:45

So it's a painful process. And in pain, she shall bring forth children and her desire shall be contrary to your husband.

01:20:52

I think that part of the fallenness of our world is that men and women do not have a an appropriate, helpful, helpmate kind of relationship.

01:21:05

So would you agree that Adam had authority over his wife before the fall? I would say that she was his helpmate.

01:21:17

So did he have authority over her? Does that mean that she is submissive to him? I believe that she submitted to him.

01:21:25

Yes. Okay. So in 1 Timothy 2, because we agree on something,

01:21:32

Jared, I'm so happy, that Adam had authority over Eve by design and creation.

01:21:38

So read me verse 13 in 1 Timothy chapter 2 and tell me, do you think Paul is referring before or after the fall when he says that verse?

01:21:50

He's talking about verse 13. I'll read it. This is 1 Timothy chapter 2, verse 13.

01:21:56

For Adam was formed first and then Eve. Did you want me to read on? No, no.

01:22:02

Is he referring before the fall or after the fall when he says that? That's before the fall. Right. And so Adam, would you agree that he's expounding on why he said verse 12 with the point of creation in verse 13?

01:22:15

Yeah. So my interpretation of that passage is that there's obviously is not necessarily a prohibition against all women having any authority in the church.

01:22:25

But rather, there is obviously a dynamic. It probably is family familiar dynamic where the family is out of kilter.

01:22:33

There's inappropriateness going on. I only got a minute and a half, so I do have a question. So you think woman here should be understood as wives since you said it's talking about the family?

01:22:43

Well, that's Adam and Eve. Were they not husband and wife? No, but I'm asking how Paul is applying that here in verse 12.

01:22:50

So when he says, I did not permit a woman, you think he's talking about wives there? Yeah, I would say so.

01:22:57

OK, can you show me one translation that actually says I do not permit a wife to teach or exercise authority?

01:23:05

There's one. Wives are typically women, correct? Well, no, Paul tells us we see translations of this

01:23:12

Greek word for women or wife, but it's contextual. So I'm just asking you to provide me one translation where this team of translators says

01:23:21

I do not permit a wife to teach. Can you provide that? No, I can't provide that.

01:23:26

I mean, I'm... That's all I had for the question. My last question in 1 Corinthians 14,

01:23:33

Paul says that women are to be silent, obviously, in the church. And I do think that maybe is talking about wives, but he says according to the law.

01:23:42

So why would he invoke the law there, you think? Yeah, I might ask that question of you.

01:23:49

There's a lot of different perspectives on that. Some people believe that... My perspective is that he's talking about order, a sense of order.

01:23:58

Paul has already talked in Corinthians multiple times about having orderly worship and those kind of things.

01:24:03

So I would say that that's what he's making reference to in the law. Jared, thank you so much, man.

01:24:09

Okay, and now it is the Nazarene pastor Jared K.

01:24:15

Henry's opportunity to have 12 minutes to cross -examine

01:24:21

Pastor Jeremiah Nortier, the Reformed Baptist. Thank you.

01:24:27

I just want to start with kind of some contextual things. You know, we've made reference a few times, both 1

01:24:34

Corinthians and to Timothy. And so let me just ask to start with, is there ever a time when women can speak in the life of the church?

01:24:46

I would say, yes. In the gathering together to fulfill the one another's, to love one another, forgive one another, to encourage one another, all those things on the

01:24:56

Lord's Day. We sing together, we repeat scripture together, and I would say they get to engage in the body in a prophetic, participatory way.

01:25:09

And that is a beautiful thing. All right. So would you deny, like 1

01:25:15

Corinthians says, it's shameful for a woman to speak in church? Do I deny it or do

01:25:22

I have a different interpretation that you have? Repeat that. So would you deny that it's shameful for a woman to speak in church?

01:25:34

How would you interpret that? There we go. That's the question I like. I think what he means to be silent or quiet, he's just basically telling wives or single women that they are to take the learning role in church, not the teaching role, which, by the way, many men don't take the teaching role either and are supposed to also be quiet.

01:25:55

By affirming. All right. So. So. But you also said that it's

01:26:02

OK for women to speak in some some context. So it seems like you're saying you're reading more into the passage than what you want to allow or what you want me to allow.

01:26:14

Yeah. Is that a question? No, I just want to examine context and be consistent. Well, the context is.

01:26:23

Look, I heard you. I'm looking at, for example, First Corinthians, chapter four, chapter 14, verse thirty five.

01:26:34

Let me tell you why. I think. Yeah. Yeah. Let me tell you a little bit more about my understanding of that verse.

01:26:39

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just the verses before it. Paul says, as in all the churches of the saints, which

01:26:45

I think is a strike against your position about something unique happening in the first century. He says the woman should keep silent in the churches.

01:26:53

And he tells us what he means, Jared. He says, for they are not permitted to speak, but to be in submission.

01:26:59

As the law also says, if there is if they if they have anything to desire to learn.

01:27:05

So that's he's telling us what he means by being quiet. He means to learn. So that doesn't exclude fulfilling the one and others of engaging in life on life fellowship within the church.

01:27:15

But they are to learn early in the context when a lesson is being proclaimed or a prophecy is being weighed.

01:27:21

That's not for women by design. All right. Well, it seems like you're you're you're conflating permitted to speak with the they they need to learn.

01:27:35

And again, I don't just when I'm reading what Paul says there. But you're you're also you are using interpretive your interpretive skill to say that's a that's a self -defeating point because you're interpreting the text to.

01:27:51

Correct. So I'm simply saying that you're making allowance for certain things that you think should be allowed.

01:27:58

But in your content. Yes. You're limiting certain things that you don't think should be allowed. And it just it's it's it's conflating the issue of certain roles.

01:28:10

Maybe it is. Maybe it's a comment. I'm sorry, but I can say no. Yeah. OK, so let me ask you this.

01:28:18

Is preaching outside of the church. Appropriate for women. Yeah, because declaring forth truth is what all

01:28:26

Christians have been commissioned to do. And we see that fulfilled in Acts. My contention with the thesis is that is specific for the

01:28:33

Lord's Day gathering to preach sound doctrine, which I would contend.

01:28:39

Paul said that is reserved for men only because they can only fulfill the the role of overseer.

01:28:47

So do you think that a woman can preach to women?

01:28:53

I think she can, yes, declare truth. I want to make sure we're on the same page. I'm talking about preaching in a specific context in the church that women can't do.

01:29:03

But outside of that context, hopefully they're preaching the gospel to their neighbors and loving their neighbors and doing following an example of all the wonderful women in Scripture doing so.

01:29:15

OK, so so, yes, they can preach maybe on Sunday in the church as long as there's not any men.

01:29:25

No, because they are they've been prescribed to not neglect the gathering together of the saints.

01:29:31

And so they they are not called to the position of overseer. Remember earlier how you agreed in principle with the

01:29:39

LGBTQ advocate? I would say no, no, no, I didn't agree. I did not agree with the

01:29:45

LGBT advocate. None of the principle that they would argue for. Y 'all have an identical principle, because when you would outline marriage to them, they would just say, no, he's

01:29:55

Jesus talking about a principle. The same thing that you said for the qualifications of overseer. Well, you're you talked about the principle of silence versus speaking.

01:30:05

Right. I just kept I kept reading in the context. Mm hmm. All the church and the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches.

01:30:12

So they're not permitted to speak, should but should be in submission. As the law also says, there's not really any kind of 35, 35.

01:30:20

Keep going more. If if there's anything they desire to learn that the matter of their husbands at home is still not speaking in the church.

01:30:27

Or it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. So he they should learn. That's my position.

01:30:35

Yeah, I'm for that, too. Who's not for that? I mean, but I'm just saying that's what

01:30:40

Paul says. And then we're avoiding the major text that I contended for in First Timothy chapter two. Well, we can maybe talk about that, but like there's nothing in there that makes any allowance for them to speak whatsoever in church.

01:30:54

You mean when they're supposed to learn? Yeah, when they're supposed to be learning.

01:31:00

Yeah. When they're learning, period. Yes, they're supposed to learn. I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying.

01:31:08

You're saying so. No, I think there's not a learning. So if they're preaching, they're not. It's not a learning.

01:31:13

They would not be learning. You're exactly you're hearing me correctly. If a woman is preaching sound doctrine from the pulpit authoritatively, she would not be learning.

01:31:24

And if she prays, she would not be learning. Well, Paul explicitly says that women can pray and prophesy.

01:31:31

And I totally think that is appropriate. Now, that would not be appropriate. You're changing your fancy because prophesying in church is a position of authority.

01:31:42

You know, you can call it whatever you want. So they're doing it from the pew, but they're proclaiming truth.

01:31:50

And proclaiming truth has some level of authority that comes with it. And so you're you can't say, well, they're learning.

01:31:58

That's the only time they're to be silent. That's not what I said. It is. Yeah, it is. Always. Always. Always. The women should keep silent in the church.

01:32:05

So I'm not advocating for that position. I'm just saying that this this issue is simply going to take more study and context than just taking out a couple of verses.

01:32:19

And you are. Well, I'm going to get to it. I'm waiting for it. Yeah. Well, you've erupted me quite a bit, so it's hard to get to it.

01:32:27

Yeah, because I don't hear the best. Well, if you'll be patient, I'll give it to you. So you're advocating for this.

01:32:34

However, you're you're you want to hedge and, you know, deny other context. Every other time in Scripture, you're saying these women did not really have authority in the body of Christ.

01:32:45

It's only in a church building that that authority comes. Apparently, it's only on Sunday that that authority come.

01:32:51

It's only with a only with the formality of a title. So apparently, if a woman gets up and preaches, as long as she's not in the pulpit and she doesn't have a title, then it's

01:33:01

OK. And so you just can't you can't hedge around with with a title that can be somewhat arbitrary and that kind of thing.

01:33:10

I think that's important to distinguish. What was the question? I guess it was more of a statement.

01:33:19

Right. What you're supposed to ask questions. That's why I was interrupting you earlier. OK. So I have a question from what you said, because you misrepresent me about three different times of what you said.

01:33:31

All right. So the issue is you have said. Women should be silent when they're learning.

01:33:40

And I'm saying that there's an opportunity in the life of the church when they worship.

01:33:46

They're not learning. When they're praying, that's not a moment when they're learning.

01:33:52

Yeah. And I think you're struggling to get a question for me. You just want to preach. OK, there you go.

01:33:58

Please explain to me where where learning ends and any level of authority might begin in the life of the church.

01:34:07

Thank you for that great question, because First Corinthians 14 is about the order of worship. And so if everyone was speaking at once, especially when a lesson was to be given, then it would be chaos.

01:34:20

God is not the God of confusion, but he's the God of truth. And so there's an orderly fashion. And, Jared, you know what

01:34:26

I'm saying? I'm saying when somebody my position would say when the the man of God, the overseer, who's to be a husband of one wife, when he is preaching, women are to be silent and learn with many men that are not teaching.

01:34:42

They're not in that overseer position. It's not hard. I don't nobody disagreeing with that.

01:34:51

The thesis is whether women can have right level of authority. But you're not arguing.

01:34:57

You are not even asking the right questions. That would say that women can fill that spot. I've made so many arguments saying why they can't.

01:35:05

It's over in a different chapter. In First Timothy chapter two, First Corinthians 11 and 14 prove that case.

01:35:12

But we're kind of spinning our wheels going in circles here because I'm telling you, they are to be silent, not teachers from the pulpit, proclaiming the word of God in sound doctrine on the

01:35:23

Lord's day. And I don't think I don't think church is a building. I think it's the gathered saints. Well, I agree that there when when there's a time of learning,

01:35:32

I do think learning can be discussion. And so I guess my question then is, at what level can a woman speak in the church?

01:35:43

When in the congregate. Yeah. OK, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. When can a woman speak in the church in a way that would be authoritative?

01:35:54

So can a woman, for example, teach a group of children? Could a woman teach a group of adults?

01:36:03

Right, it's real easy. They cannot exercise authority over men, especially in the teaching role of the overseer.

01:36:12

But Titus 2 says she can teach other women and children. That's not what we're debating.

01:36:18

We're talking about who gets to be in the position of overseer for the body. Paul says that that is men only, and women are to be submissive and learn quietly.

01:36:29

And we are out of time for this session. We're going to our final commercial break right now.

01:36:36

And when we return, each of our debaters, starting with Jared K.

01:36:43

Henry, the Nazarene, is going to give a second rebuttal for eight minutes.

01:36:49

And Pastor Jeremiah Nortier, the Reformed Baptist, will be following him with his own eight minute rebuttal, which will conclude the debate for day number one.

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We are having a second day of this debate tomorrow. But don't go away.

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01:40:07

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01:41:30

God bless you. Welcome back to day number one of a two -day debate on the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's Church is acceptable.

01:41:43

Nazarene Pastor Jared K. Henry has been affirming that thesis, and Reformed Baptist Pastor Jeremiah Nortier has been denying that thesis.

01:41:54

And now we are concluding day number one with second rebuttal periods from each of our participants of eight minutes each, and we are starting with Pastor Jared K.

01:42:08

Henry. All right, thanks again. I appreciated the conversation with Brother Jeremiah today.

01:42:16

Thank you for taking time to hear me out. Again, I just want to reiterate that I'm coming from a perspective where I recognize women are different.

01:42:28

They do obviously have different roles biologically. That's a reality and that kind of a thing.

01:42:33

But I do also believe that in the last days, the days in which we're living, God has poured out his spirit, and he is using and working through women, even in places of authority.

01:42:45

I believe that you can be complimentary and still hold to women in ministry, that you cannot necessarily conflate family structure and church polity the way that some people do.

01:43:01

So I think you can hold to both of those. You can be egalitarian, I guess, and be for women in ministry or not be for women in ministry.

01:43:09

But I think you can do the same and be complimentary. I think it's important to distinguish the family, and I think that some of the references that we've looked at specifically are probably dealing more with family dynamics in the life of the church or women that were certainly out of line and were being addressed in those contexts.

01:43:33

I think Brother Jeremiah earlier mentioned that at his church they do allow women to braid hair. He didn't explain why he does that.

01:43:40

That's certainly an interpretive skill. But the issue of women speaking, being silent, those kinds of things obviously require a bit of larger context than just the specific verses.

01:43:55

That's not to ignore or deny them. It's just to recognize that theology is formed not from singular verses necessarily but from canonical context.

01:44:09

It's as a whole that we approach. So I would also distinguish between formal titles and functional realities.

01:44:18

I think Brother Jeremiah would maybe distinguish there as well. But formal titles come from the organization of the church in hopes that we are recognizing what

01:44:30

God is already doing as well. I would simply say that sometimes obviously there are men who are ordained by the church who weren't really called.

01:44:41

I think we could all agree to that. I certainly think that there are sometimes women who are ordained by the church that aren't really called.

01:44:49

But it doesn't negate the fact that God does pour out a spirit and those women have the authority to preach in the life of the church, prophesy, pray, and do other things that women can speak in the church in certain contexts, although there is prohibition in some things.

01:45:07

So the assumption that silence only means the pulpit or that it only means the formal title of pastor

01:45:15

I think is erroneous. I think it's a specific situation that is impactful and needs to be addressed.

01:45:24

So again, that goes to speak to canonical context. I don't think that my way of interpreting even remotely allows for the

01:45:33

LGBT issue. That's often kind of a red herring to throw at it because I don't affirm that.

01:45:41

I don't think any of Scripture affirms that. Scripture never makes allowances for it. Scripture never speaks to the practice of homosexuality, even in a neutral way.

01:45:51

However, while there are a couple of verses that Brother Jeremiah emphasized that speak to the silence of women, there are a number of examples and scriptures, even in Corinthians where women are speaking in church with authority.

01:46:08

If they're prophesying, that has authority that comes with it, whether formally or informally.

01:46:14

So I would go back to say the old saying, a text without a context is a pretext for a proof text.

01:46:22

There needs to be context to all of these scriptures and more than just the one verse. It's context to the whole.

01:46:29

So that's why we allow women, not all churches, but some churches allow women to wear gold or braid their hair because we understand there's a larger and broader context than those one verses.

01:46:41

So I'm contending that there have been women throughout history, and I'm talking about the history in Scripture, the witness of history in Scripture that God has called, that is, he has ordained, and he has called them to work in the life of the church.

01:46:58

There have been times where they have been officially recognized by the church. There have been times when they have not been officially recognized, just as there have been times men have not been recognized for their calling.

01:47:08

But it doesn't change that they are called and that they have authority, and that can't be refuted.

01:47:15

So the title that we give people, the debate maybe is more about titles, but practically speaking,

01:47:26

I think that people who have that gifting and have that call in the church recognize that regardless of their gender, that the church should recognize

01:47:35

God's called them, they are anointed, they have the gifts and graces, and that we should recognize that they have been called.

01:47:45

So you do have two and a half minutes left, if you'd like to pursue that.

01:47:50

That's all right. I'll give it up for questions at the end. Okay, and now we have

01:47:56

Pastor Jeremiah Nortier, the Reformed Baptist, who has been opposing the thesis.

01:48:02

He has now eight minutes of a second rebuttal period. Thank you,

01:48:08

Chris. So I just want to go ahead and say out of the gate, listen to Jared. He misrepresented my point.

01:48:15

I was not saying that he is in favor of LGBTQ community.

01:48:20

I'm saying he has no basis to argue against them. Why? Because he uses the same point that they do when

01:48:29

I take him to clear scriptures, like Paul says that the office of overseer is to be for the one woman man.

01:48:38

Remember, I asked him, and he said it so clear, and I've heard all the homosexual advocates say the same thing when

01:48:44

I take him to verses about marriage. He said Paul is communicating a principle point. The husband of one wife just means the principle of love between two individuals.

01:48:56

When he said that, I thought the debate is over there. We've only halfway begun, but it's over because he cannot be consistent with that kind of hermeneutic.

01:49:05

Now, he can say Paul says so much more than what he says there in the qualification.

01:49:11

Context is on my side. Every single time we're going to see that male headship is not only for marriage, but it's also for the church.

01:49:18

I think one of the biggest things that Jared will not let go, but you better wait till tomorrow because we're going to talk more about this, is he thinks prophecy necessarily means preaching somehow as an overseer on the

01:49:32

Lord's Day gathering. He can push back a little bit against that and say it doesn't quite mean that, but he really does. Prophecy does not entail that they meet the qualification of rightly handling the word and preaching sound doctrine to the saints on the sanctified

01:49:46

Lord's Day, the first day of the week. But he's given up any meaningful exegesis.

01:49:51

If he's going to interpret the husband of one wife, well, that's just the principle between two individuals. He mentioned we can't look at a single verse without the context.

01:50:03

Jared, that's what I tried to help you with when you said, well, Jeremiah, you said women are to be silent.

01:50:08

Are you saying that there are some times where they don't have to be silent? I said, Jared, keep reading the next verse because Paul tells us what he means by being silent.

01:50:17

He doesn't say that they are to permanently be silent in all respects or all circumstances. I never said that.

01:50:24

They are to take the learning role when the overseer is preaching, rightly handling the word, preaching in season and out of season.

01:50:33

Guess what? Paul said that those overseers, which are to be male, by the way, not women, they are to labor in the teaching and preaching, and they are worthy of double honor.

01:50:43

Now, you know, he keeps saying Jeremiah didn't really give us an explanation for why he lets women braid their hair in service.

01:50:50

Jared, you've not really stepped into the debate arena because I said this earlier.

01:50:56

When Paul says likewise that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, what he's getting at is women should not be parading their dress attire.

01:51:06

They should not be distracting, especially other men, on the Lord's Day or period in ways that are reserved for a husband and a wife.

01:51:15

And he goes on to say, once again, context, he says, but with modesty and self -control.

01:51:20

Jared, you know why women can braid their hair? As long as they're doing it in a modest way, as long as they're doing it with self -control, not trying to overturn authority or turn heads to draw attention to themselves.

01:51:32

Now, something else he said, this is hard because I didn't think you would take this line of argumentation, but he thinks, when

01:51:39

Paul says, I do not permit a woman to teach, he said maybe it's talking about a wife.

01:51:45

No commentary, no translation would render that.

01:51:51

Gune, and gune can be translated wife or woman, but Paul tells us when he's talking about wives, like in Ephesians 5 he says, wives submit to their own idios, it's a possession of husbands.

01:52:04

We don't see that anywhere in the context here. A woman is to learn silently. This is in the context of women gathering together in the church, and it's upon that basis of context,

01:52:15

Jared. I get that there's prophecy used in other places in the New Testament, but you got to look at those in context too, because Paul is saying a woman, not a wife who possesses a husband.

01:52:26

He's not saying a husband that possesses a gune here or a wife. He's talking about the principle point of headship.

01:52:34

And so in the church, and he kept saying, I'm conflating in the home with church. Well, it's

01:52:39

Paul that said that the church is the household of God, meaning there are shared principles of authority and submission that go on in the marriage that also go on in the church.

01:52:51

And so I'm letting Paul speak in context for himself. I think it's your presuppositions that you've already bought into that prophesy is so authoritative, even though we don't see any of those on the

01:53:03

Lord's Day gathering where a woman is exegeting, expositing scripture, contending for sound doctrine before the body.

01:53:10

That is the burden of proof that Jared has before us. Ain't going to happen. Why? Because Paul tells us women are to learn quietly with all submissiveness.

01:53:22

Jared, that's not a bad thing. Now he'll say he agrees with me. I'm like, great. Let's just be consistent with the

01:53:28

Lord's Day gathering in our ecclesiology. Paul says, and I would say that this is an imperative, even though he's not saying it in that particular voice.

01:53:36

But what he's saying here is consistent with all of his writings. He is an apostle telling us what our church gathering service should look like.

01:53:44

And you know what that doesn't include? Him permitting women to teach, right? Dedicate, teaching, expositing scripture or exercising authority.

01:53:54

This is not just domineering over men. God has created them to be submissive.

01:54:00

And that is beautiful in the context of marriage, but not just marriage, Jared, but also in the church.

01:54:06

That's the context here in 1 Timothy 2, 3, and the rest of the epistle.

01:54:12

Rather, she is to remain quiet. In all circumstances, absolutely not.

01:54:18

But she is not to be the overseer, the elder, the pastor who feeds and shepherds the flock.

01:54:24

Why? Because Paul told us. He said that is for a husband to be a one -woman man. But when you switch gears and say that's just talking about the principle, well, that is an

01:54:33

LGBTQ -esque argument when it doesn't fit their agenda either.

01:54:39

Now, the end -all, be -all argument is verse 13. Paul is not talking about just some cultural happenstance with the women in the first century at Ephesus that are being duped by false teachers.

01:54:52

And even if it was, that still happens today. So there's nothing unique there that doesn't also apply to us today.

01:54:59

But Paul makes his case not from quoting after the fall, as though male authority is a perversion that started in Genesis 3, 16, but he says

01:55:11

Adam was formed first, then Eve. He's making a principle point that just as Adam is to be the authority over Eve, that is the same kind of role in marriage in very clear passages like Ephesians 5.

01:55:25

But in the church, women are to take the submissive role, I would say, by design.

01:55:32

He appeals to, yes, the first marriage, but he doesn't appeal to Adam and Eve in their marriage. But he says Adam was created or formed first.

01:55:40

So he's not making necessarily a point about marriage, but he's talking about a point of design, a point of creation.

01:55:47

And this principle, therefore, is universal and holds for all time.

01:55:53

Thanks so much, Chris. Well, thank you, Pastor Jeremiah. And also, thank you,

01:55:58

Jared, both of you, for doing wonderful jobs today in day number one of our debate, which will continue tomorrow.

01:56:10

And once again, let me repeat the theme, the ordination of women to have authority over men in Christ's church is acceptable.

01:56:20

And we have had Pastor Jared K. Henry, the Nazarene, affirming this thesis, and Jeremiah Nortier, the

01:56:29

Reformed Baptist, denying or opposing this thesis. We have time for two questions that will have to have brief answers.

01:56:40

The first is directed towards Pastor Jeremiah. If you really believe in a strict sense that Paul's prohibition to women that they cannot teach, do you ever learn from reading a book by a

01:56:56

Christian female author or even when you sing hymns by a female hymn writer?

01:57:03

That's actually a good question because I might have missed me addressing this in the dialogue back and forth with Jared. We are debating a very strict sense of teaching on the

01:57:13

Lord's Day. We say from the pulpit, though the church didn't necessarily have a pulpit, but contending for sound doctrine to feed the flock.

01:57:19

That is not reserved for women. And so outside of the Lord's Day gathering, I wrote a forward to a book written by Miss Leanne Ferguson.

01:57:29

She wrote Christ Rescued, the Thief's Testimony, proving that the church Christ is legalistic.

01:57:34

I wrote a forward to that, and she wrote so much amazing stuff in that. But notice,

01:57:40

I'm not contending that women can't ever teach in context outside of the church, behind the pulpit to the body.

01:57:46

I'm contending for what Paul said in 1 Timothy 2, chapter 3, and what

01:57:52

Paul says elsewhere in 1 Corinthians 11 and 14. Great, and one more question for Pastor Jared K.

01:58:00

Henry from Roberta in West Babylon, Long Island, New York.

01:58:07

If a woman can be a pastor and wives are to submit to their husbands and also the flock are to submit to their pastors, does the husband of a

01:58:15

Christian pastor who's a woman have to submit to her? Well, that would go back to earlier.

01:58:23

I kind of addressed the issue of different spheres of authority and leadership.

01:58:29

If a king came in and we're called to submit to some authority there, those kind of things, or a parent was in the church where their son was the pastor, what's the dynamic there?

01:58:45

There's different dynamics. So there's a sense of mutual. The Bible talks about submitting to one another.

01:58:51

So, yes, there are places where we are to submit to one another in their specific roles of authority and leadership within the family, in the life of the church.

01:59:03

So, yes, I think that you can be complementary. And so you would say, yes, that at home and in the marriage relationship, the wife is to submit.

01:59:14

And I think you can say that in the life of the church, that she has a leadership authority that doesn't negate.

01:59:20

My authority as a pastor in my church doesn't abdicate over into marriage relationships in the life of the church.

01:59:29

And my authority— And we're out of time. Go ahead, I'm sorry. We're out of time. And let me quickly repeat the websites for my two debaters.

01:59:38

Pastor Jared K. Henry's website is MackeyNaz .org, and Pastor Jeremiah Nortier's website is 125Church .com.

01:59:47

I look forward to resuming the debate tomorrow, and I want everybody who's listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater