July 29, 2022 Show with Dr. David Lawrence on “Discovering Sovereign Grace While in the Church of Christ’s Halls of Academia” (Part 2)

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Good Afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

Who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron? Radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio.

Wishing you all a happy Friday on this 29th day of.

July.

2022 and I am thrilled to have back as a returning guest and utterly

fascinating brother by the name of David Lawrence.

Those of you who listen regularly to the program May remember that we began part one

of the discussion.

We are continuing today on Monday July 18th and

the discussion was so fascinating to me and We really only Got

to the tip of the iceberg Even during a two -hour interview that I wanted to have

David Lawrence back on the program so that we can ten continue the

discussion on.

His.

Discovering sovereign grace while in the Church of Christ's Hall of Academia.

The theological journey of a Professor in a prominent Church of Christ University.

And my guest dr. David Lawrence is a former minister at Milton Avenue Church of Christ in

Truman, Arkansas former minister at Smith Springs Church of Christ in Nashville, Tennessee and

former professor of history at Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee one of the Church of Christ's most

prominent universities and.

Today he is currently scholar in residence at Stevens Valley Church of Nashville,

Tennessee an independent reformed congregation and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron

sharpens.

I am radio.

Dr. David Lawrence.

Thank you.

Chris.

Why don't you once again, especially for the sake of our listeners who have not heard part one

of this discussion.

Let our listeners know about Stevens Valley Church of Nashville, Tennessee.

Recommended if

your pastor Jim Bachman was formerly with

reputation for being an excellent.

He's doing a great job.

We have I think one of the best music directors you find anywhere.

It's a great privilege for me to be a part of the founding of this congregation and to

continue to as a member and.

Teach a class every Sunday.

Terrific.

And I'm sure that I will remember to repeat this later, but

Let me give you the website for those of you who are either Visiting the Nashville area.

I have friends family and loved ones who live there or if you live there yourself.

The website is Stevens Valley Church and Stevens is spelt with a pH S T E

P H E N S Valley dot church, so I hope that if you

are in that area you plan for a visit there and I think it

would be good to Do a recap if you will of some things That

we discussed last time for part one of this discussion.

That those listening the first time may be unfamiliar with little for instance, why don't we

even just start with a basic summary description of who

are these folks and churches known as the Church of Christ and it's

typically not always but typically on the signage spelt with a small C for church

and a capital C for Christ and To some folks.

That's an extremely important issue.

But but if you could tell us about these churches.

All right.

I were in any church

and just went over again by public

school teacher was in the Disciples of Christ Church And decided to enter

ministry there but through the influence of a friend and

It was the most at this time the I think one of the most Legalistic not be

well one of the most but not the most they were moving in that direction.

But it whether you could support an orphan

home or a radio program or have located support located preach

Cooperative arrangement anyway, they were splitting and I wound up on the more legalistic

side and In Arkansas, you mentioned the

one in Truman.

I preached before that in Charleston, Arkansas Then moved to which it

was there introduced to the evil

form of legalism where love

just I reacted by making sure

that every sermon and That's how we are identified

that we love one another that didn't go over very well.

Some of the people left but I stayed there probably too long and then went to a

mainline Church of Christ the were the same they were just not

as extreme as in the extremely legalistic Church and That was the north side

Church of Christ in Wichita and then moved to Nashville to take the position as Lipscomb and

Found myself working with the east part of town Smith Springs as you

mentioned of the Church of

Christ and they tried to be distinct in everything Thus to separate themselves from

anything that they call Denominational eyes that we are

the one

true.

Sure Roger.

Did you leave and he said?

People had told me that Church of Christ believed they were the only

ones going couldn't stay any longer.

Question on me certainly did not

agree with that of the doc

I believed but I didn't have the opportunity.

I would say I didn't have the courage because obviously preaching some of these things would mean I'd lose my job

and I'll have to say I was pretty much mind admitting it but

Opportunity to teach that but these things were just building up.

I talked about that last week various things were building up in the back of my mind that finally all came

together.

Yes, so some of those Commonalities that you will find in churches known as the Church of

Christ.

And as I've said before not only with my recent interview with a Church of Christ minister

Kelly Carter who is the minister of the Calgary Church of Christ in Calgary,

Alberta, Ontario, Canada who is on a mission to introduce biblical and

historic Trinitarianism Into the Church of Christ

because that has historically been something that has not been universally

agreed upon and Even though from my understanding most churches of Christ are

Trinitarian.

It is a.

Matter of disagreement whether one should use that term Trinity because it's not a term

found in the Bible, although obviously we who are Trinitarian believe the Teaching and the concept

is clearly taught in the scripture.

But It is very difficult to pigeonhole churches of Christ not

only because they have always been involved since their inception in

Disputes and disagreements ranging from friendly collegiate in -house

disagreement Conducted in the brotherly fashion all the way to the other end of the spectrum very

heated and sometimes even hateful Separative and

sectarian.

Rhetoric.

But on top of that you have churches of Christ over the

years, especially after the introduction of.

The.

Wonderful blessing from God known as the Internet which obviously is used by God mightily and used

by Satan unfortunately mightily.

But you I believe that must be a part of the

Positive progression many in the churches of Christ have been

involved in.

Developing in their own preaching teaching and practice.

Becoming much more grace centered.

Much and much less legalistic and in fact, I'm not unfortunately also.

Becoming some have become much more liberal in a way that even

evangelical Protestants would view as Far too liberal and even in

some occasions leftist to the point of apostasy.

Is still wearing the name Church of Christ still identifying with the restoration movement but but some of those

commonalities that you may more typically still find are.

That.

They believe that baptism by immersion in water is required for

the remission of sins.

Yeah that there is.

No genuine Concept of clergy and even many Baptists would agree with that.

And ministers don't wear clerical robes and things to that nature.

You have a division you have the a cappella churches of Christ and you have the instrumental churches of Christ.

I Would imagine that that it could be wrong in this but I believe the a cappella group is

larger Within that movement, but I could be wrong.

And.

Even though they would never in a million years describe themselves this way, but they are

very typically if not most often five -point Arminians and.

And to remind you they would never call themselves that in fact most Baptists

Who are four -point Arminian? Never would refer to themselves that way either.

But.

Yeah, yeah, there is that also that huge difference among themselves that you have

those that Not only are Pelagian in regard to the nature of man.

They do not believe man is conceived in Sin and bears the sin of Adam and so on.

Basically is a clean slate in regard to The morality of their

nature.

Yeah, and.

You also believe or should I say there are some who also believe?

In a clear Pelagian treadmill of works

righteousness not only In in some sense attaining

salvation, but maintaining salvation.

Yeah, and then although the word grace may be used it is obvious from their theology.

They are grace less especially.

So so teary all of you so teary a lot of.

Graces.

And there's in the hymns and it's sung but so many people do not

understand what it implies.

What it means?

And.

I and I have to repeat here folks.

I am not broad -brushing because I do know.

In fact, I've already said it's very difficult to pigeonhole Churches of Christ because I have friends in the Church of Christ

that Do not reflect.

Those.

Those hallmarks if you will that I have just listed.

There are some that are very grace oriented even if they're not thoroughly reformed or Calvinistic.

And.

Trinitarian and so on.

But.

You also have a claim that they are.

Not.

Creedal or confessional and I have always made the reply to

anyone who claims that because even Many if not most Baptists claim

that anytime you write down what you believe that's your creed.

They don't have that they

subscribe to.

People begin to think.

I think ideas certainly flow along the internet.

That has been a major factor also.

Urbanization and the city's Church of Christ used to be a country

but in the city's they can Interact with one another and so when ideas are

exchanged there is the questioning of the old values

or teaches.

So there has there's been a tremendous change in the last 10 15 20 years within Churches of

Christ.

Yes have lost they've lost members, but the ones who have

remained have tended to move in a direction.

Understanding more how.

Yes, let me point out again as I did the last time there are similarities that

Church of Christ have with Reformed people and reformed

Baptists.

They typically believe in a plurality of elders and.

As and as far as their similarity with Reformed Baptists of which I am one they

believe in the independence and autonomy of each local congregation.

They they do not believe there is any hierarchical structure of authority outside of

the local elders.

The only higher authority outside the local church is Jesus Christ in the scriptures and

That would be an agreement that Reformed Baptists would have.

I know that my Presbyterian brethren such as yourself Have Presbyterians and

synods and so on.

But.

So there are similarities the differences.

Interestingly about the polity.

As I have found unlike Reformed Baptists you will have

ministers and evangelists being viewed Very often as something entirely

different than the office of an elder.

They will be whereas most Reformed Christians view

the two offices of the church being elder and deacon.

Which many of the churches of Christ will add minister and evangelist?

In fact I can remember years ago when somebody In my

family was a member of a Church of Christ a woman who is divorced and dating

a an atheist I Approached the minister about shouldn't you be

disciplining?

This this person and the person said I can't I'm just a minister and we don't have any elders right now.

So I thought that was an interesting response by the way that that.

I'm not I'm not.

Advocating what that woman was doing but praise be to God that man.

She was dating who eventually became her husband Received Christ and became a born -again believer.

So I just want to make sure I've made that clear in case the individual was listening to our show today.

But so there there you have my understanding and experience because once again, let me remind

my listeners That the Church of Christ movement has a special

place in my heart.

Because I was a Roman Catholic.

I was raised Roman Catholic in the very first church.

That I heard the scriptures opened and was used of God to develop in me

a love for the scriptures a fascination in the scriptures and An eagerness and a zeal

to study the scriptures.

The very first Church was the Church of Christ where my brother At one time

was a member and I still maintain very treasured friendships.

From that congregation and from other connected congregations to this day and I'm talking about

this was happening in.

The.

Late 70s in the 1980s is when I began Developing these friendships with Church of Christ folk.

I eventually got saved in a Reformed Baptist Church where I was baptized.

But I do owe a debt to the Church of Christ and whenever I hear about things like

the doctrines of grace being discovered in the Church of Christ by some men and

congregations and other things such as a Stricter

adherence and passion for Trinitarianism and so on I get delighted and I get enthusiastic about it.

So there's my my more than two cents, I guess.

Well, I totally agree to this last time.

A large number and me.

The

emphasis

on second thing you

mentioned the

woman I mentioned last week

came from the Church of Christ and He and I talked about how we were grateful for them.

So yes, and one one thing I'd like to mention.

I don't know how closely Affiliated he is with you and I in our

soteriology But it might be good to mention right up front that a man who?

has become a hero to many in the Church of Christ and of course

That is a relative thing because some people who are heroes to some churches of Christ are

enemies and others depending upon what Area of of

teaching they want a hobby horse and become extremely sectarian over.

But a very prominent name in the Church of Christ has been ruble Shelley and and according to you he has

become.

Over the years much more grace centered black to

think.

Because we did attend with my heels for a while where he preaches I have high regard for him and he

worked with us in the ministry that we established in Getty ministries for a while.

You let me if you don't mind Chris I'd like to the

basic concept Arminian ism

if we mentioned Pelagian ism.

We've mentioned legalism and Then we've mentioned reformed theology.

I Think it boils

to salvation is

the result of God and his love and mercy and grace and the finished work of Jesus Christ.

It is outside me.

It is beyond me the other Concept is that by

salvation?

Now if we can kind of group all of those together in a sense.

The other plan and

people sometimes say

the problem we have is just we just rotation of certain passages.

You folks believe in predestination.

We don't you believe that you your salvation is secure not going to lose it.

We believe you can lose it and so forth.

They're all these things.

It's not a controversy about the interpretation of certain passages.

It is a basic and fundamentally different.

Let me tell you I boiled down to when I became

reformed and I asked myself why.

Well.

Of course first my wife did

too that we

believe that reformed Christianity was consistent with biblical teaching.

It is I think everything That we believe as reformed Christians can be supported by but

scripted with themselves.

It all goes together.

That means I don't have to pick and choose.

I don't have to cherry -pick what I'm going to believe and leave other things out

and it is consistent not only with itself and with The Bible generally but

reformed teaching is consistent with human reality.

I've had people tell me when the doctrines of grace

to them people know that they are sinners.

They know that the ship to God and Then

another thing that's true

that if you it's like a river you're going not upstream.

But you're going downstream with the flow and then this is one case where we can say go with the flow.

There's a biblical flow a trajectory and if you're in tune with that You're going to see more

and more and more it's going to open up.

I know you've had that experience, too.

We are preaching and in

the last few years and involved in worship

I think feel like I've learned more in the last few years and I have many years prior to that.

And one of the things I think is so important about reformed theology is

The

effect

it has on people

about one young man if I didn't

sing again, but it's a powerful example I will

say his name is

Tom said yes, and he came in my office

wife waited and he said

knowledge of the doctrines of grace the effect it's had on my life and

I it did I certainly I can understand that and

he said no.

No, you really don't understand.

Would you explain to me?

He said yes, I'll tell you it probably you noticed that I said no, I I

didn't notice that.

He said I came hot

give up that I've loved me the I had in

Christ and he became

one of

the and

just recently.

Problems and she said let me tell you since I have been

here I think

of Jesus Christ can

be multiplied

because for the

early days of the church the one thing that was

I'd be sure that I will go to heaven and I'd be sure of

my salvation and I will say that our minion ism.

We have two different

Interpretation of

it's going to say we're saved by doing the right thing.

I remember the preacher back in Springfield that I first attended this conservative Church of

Christ and He said one time to me David if people will just do

you just need to

do the example a

Young man came in my office at Lipscomb one time.

And he was just smiling.

He said do you know what I did last Saturday night?

I said no I don't know and he said I got baptized.

He expected me the normal reaction.

Congratulations, you've done the right thing.

I mean I said what role did God play in this?

And he said with great pride Wow I had

nothing to do with it.

God is irrelevant to this.

God has given a Bible and you figure out from the Bible what you do.

Yeah, in fact as my friend Jerry Johnson put it Jerry

Johnson a reformed apologist who has been involved in some

extraordinary video documentaries In Where

the doctrines of sovereign grace are taught and where error is exposed he

Has a really phenomenal documentary on Charles Finney Who would be

very much like you're describing as far as Pelagian?

And he said something interesting that I never heard anybody say before.

He said some people who are reformed wrongly Call

Charles Finney a Synergist as many

Arminians and Roman Catholics and others could rightly be described because it is

a synergy of God and man's cooperation in order to achieve

salvation and He said no.

No.

No, I know that reformed people Rightly identify ourselves

as monergists, but.

But Charles Finney was a monergist.

He said not the right kind, but he was a monergist in that man alone

Had the tools necessary to each a to achieve eternal life.

Yeah, and the grace is only there as some kind of a helping hand, but it is

not a required thing in the lives of humans.

Yes, the fact that that Finney was a monergist,

but a monergist and works and Armenians.

The problem with that is that bring together the two systems.

It really isn't successful in the fact to the bottom line.

And what at the bottom line is the one thing is the factor.

That means you're safe.

In fact, in fact, if we pick up right where you left off, we have to go to our first break right now.

Okay, and we're gonna.

When we come back we're going to be focusing on the contrast between legalism and grace and.

If anybody has a question for dr. David Lawrence, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN z en at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state and country residence.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with David Lawrence after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen.

If you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the entire program is david lawrence.

A former church of christ minister and former professor of history at lipscomb university.

One of the premier universities of the church of christ in nashville, tennessee.

He's currently scholar in residence at stephens valley church of nashville, tennessee.

And we are discovering.

With him or should I say we are discussing his Discovery of sovereign grace

while in the church of christ halls of academia.

The journey of a professor in a prominent church of christ university.

And if you have questions or email addresses chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name.

At least city and state and country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Now let's pick up where you left off.

I don't know remember exactly where We uh where you were in your your

conversation, but if you can recall let's pick up right where we left off there.

And it's

interesting

to think that

people

have some laws

that are given to them.

And so if you go outside of christianity, you encounter I

believe I am accurate in this that uh.

And I think reform theology and

compass is the

only outside.

It is going to be based on what man is saying.

It is based entirely from beginning

to end

to combine the two.

Uh, what's called synergism that is the work of both god and man working together and that goes back to

the early days.

Pelagius firstly about how are we saved by saying that it's entirely a matter of

man.

You described it.

Can we do enough

good.

God never requires of us anything that we cannot do.

And pelagius spread his docs monk up in britain.

Concerned about if you teach grace, it will

just take see that as a license to sin.

Now in response to that Saint augustine many books that

denounced

the basic doctrines that of course later influenced

john calvin but along came John cassian.

And cassian was the first uh in the sense that he tried to

combine the two systems into one and later

arminius and holland who

advanced

that

idea

response is I did this I did that that sounds very much like the

person that jesus is talking about.

They will say in the last day i've done various good works and I will respond apart from me you work of iniquity

the only answer that one can give that is viable and true is I

Plead the blood of christ.

I I believe in christ.

I put my trust in him.

There's a bottom line.

Now if we go back to the reformation.

The key doctrine of the reformation as defined by luther Was

that

we are justified

by faith

saying

there's

nothing justification is.

We were talking last time about al martin.

And al martin sent me a series of sermons that he delivered on justification.

And he used the westminster larger catechism as the basis for it to understand justification is

to understand that's Salvation that's pardon.

That is forgiveness of sin.

Let me just uh and.

Interject here who al martin is because a lot of our listeners.

He is one of the most well -known reformed baptist preachers and

pastors since the resurgence of Calvinistic baptists

in the mid 20th century.

He is retired from pastoral ministry now, but he is an author.

And viewed by many across the reform spectrum whether you're reformed baptist or presbyterian

as one of the greatest living preachers of the 20th and 21st centuries and

that would even include some uh Non -reformed fundamentalist baptists who have heard

him.

Yes well the doctrine of justification.

Is simply this that god in a judicial sense a forensic

issues a declaration.

That we are can we

do to be unjustified?

Well?

No, it is something that doesn't change.

If god declares you justified that's the way it is.

He's brought forward the Judgment into your presence and at the point that you put your faith in christ.

He declares that you're justified now.

That is a work of god

their concept

forgiven of sin.

To be just do

we read that you're justified by baptism?

Baptism is a sacrament is a sign and seal of our salvation.

It is not an option.

It is something that is bound upon all christians.

But it is not the saving act

and there

one needs to look at what paul is saying in

ephesians, too.

He said By grace, are you saved through gift

of god our faith?

It's obvious that grace is a gift of god and the substantive adjective.

This has to refer to the last thing that said the antecedent which is faith.

Faith is a gift from god.

And that's not the only place in scripture that we read that so if

just is a gift of god Then it's all of god.

It's all of grace from beginning to end.

And the the problem I think the armenians do not see is at that point it puts them In the

category that makes one save

what they have done.

They've made a free will choice or something of that sort or be baptized now.

Can I uh ask you?

So we immediately address this.

Uh, especially since there may be those in the church of christ tearing their hair out right now.

Uh, they will say well this guy.

Doesn't know what he's talking about because as in first peter chapter 3 verse

21 We clearly read if you believe in the inerrancy of scripture.

Uh.

Baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to god

for a good conscience through the resurrection of jesus christ.

And then you also uh have.

Uh, a other classic, uh text in the scripture that on an in an

isolated reading may lead one to the opinion that Immersion in water is

required for salvation in acts.

Chapter 238.

Then peter said unto them repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of jesus christ

for the remission of sins.

And you shall receive the gift of the holy ghost.

So How do we as reformed christians and grace only christians.

Uh.

Respond to this.

In fact since we're approaching our midway break right now. I'll have you respond to those texts After

we return because I don't want to interrupt you as soon as you start speaking.

Okay, that's fine.

If anybody has a question for dr. David lawrence Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com is always give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the usa.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are in a church of christ and you are starting to

Question some of the things that you have been taught about salvation.

You are starting to become more grace centered in your understanding of salvation

and the christian life.

Uh, and you don't want to identify yourself just at this point because you're still on a journey and you

don't want to be uh ostracized or even Uh excommunicated

by your own congregation.

Well, we could understand You wanting to remain anonymous at this point.

But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name at least your city and state and country of residence.

We'll be right back with david lawrence after these messages.

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to dr. David Lawrence.

On his journey as a church of christ minister and church of christ university professor

into sovereign grace.

And uh before the break I was quoting a couple of classic

texts That you no doubt are fuller fully familiar with.

Yeah.

And those texts Uh are both found in acts

Where uh, we have it being stated by peter

Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of jesus christ for the remission of sins

And you shall receive The gift of the holy spirit.

And then we have in first peter 3 21 Baptism

now saves you Is stated emphatically And so how does a

grace -centered person who believes that baptism is obviously A sign

and a seal and it's an act of obedience.

It's not an option that we Be baptized or not.

Uh, we cannot be frivolous And indifferent and have apathy over it and say well,

I just don't feel like uh being baptized.

Uh.

You know, how does uh.

Someone who believes that it's an important ordinance.

And often called the sacrament.

Uh, but yet not something that man Uh obeys to cooperate with god in

order to save himself.

All right, griff, I do want to deal with that.

Let me say 21 Baptism does also now save you

in its content just a

moment about the

week.

He was reading from and

that is where you've got situations that seem to be

conflicting.

In jesus saying If I be lifted up

walk in the light while you have the light and some of the

Audience.

Reacted by saying and

there are many passages that support the idea that messiah is here forever.

And yet we have the passages from this is

what he'll plug in for my class.

Uh, all of our classes at stephens valley, including mine are available on youtube.

And you can go to it at stephens valley

the geneva class, which is the name of the class right the gospel of john.

And if you do a little navigating you can get there.

But anyway, here's the quote from matthew henry.

Do they make so strange of the lifting up of the son of man?

Note, we often run into great mistakes.

And then defend them with god in his word has

put together.

And opposing one truth supporting another.

We have heard out of the gospel that which exalts free grace and we've heard also and

we just

Obey god.

It's a matter of understanding.

In this case which come here save two good works which god

prepared beforehand that we walk in them.

The good works are an expression if you look

at first

peter.

He starts out by addressing the elect.

And he talks about being born again.

And he talks about salvation by faith.

In the midst of a world that opposes and

here's where

baptism we belong to christ

and he approves of us and he enables us the.

The ark could navigate through the flood and through the difficulties

of the ark were saved.

To navigate through the warmth

and be

baptized therefore their mission of sins and you receive the gift of the holy

didn't go on.

The flow and

the

copy

is

yes

supporting

one.

We.

Amen.

And we have an anonymous listener who has a question.

I think it's an excellent question.

Okay, uh because I have often brought this text up or these

texts up.

Uh when i'm having conversations with Folks in the church of christ when they are

on the hobby horse of the necessity of immersion and water for

salvation.

Uh, the anonymous listener says.

Uh, some of my closest friends are ministers and members of church of christ

congregations.

And i've never received a satisfactory answer from any of them regarding acts.

Chapter 10 verses 45 through 47.

I was wondering if you have ever heard an adequate response in any way shape or form.

To the text which reads.

All the circumcised believers who came with peter were amazed because the gift of the holy spirit

Had been poured out on the gentiles also for they were hearing them speaking with

tongues and exalting god.

Then peter answered Surely, no one can refuse the water

for these to be baptized.

Who have.

Received The holy spirit just as we did.

Can he and he ordered them to be baptized in the name of jesus christ?

Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

This is clear proof positive that these gentiles were born again

were regenerate Prior to them receiving the ordinance of baptism.

Have you heard as i've asked anybody?

Give an adequate response in the church of christ to this.

Obviously when you look at it exactly as you said.

Burned again.

They were.

The water was to confirm that who can forbid water.

That these who receive the same gifts as we.

So yes,

I know

they're with fear and

trembling.

And again, there's a point where you stop.

I did I stopped.

There works in you good

pleasure.

The power comes.

The outworking of that is in your actions.

A context is so important in dealing with these things.

Amen.

And we have another question from cindy in findlay, ohio.

Hello chris and dr. Lawrence.

I have a friend who believes one must repent and trust christ for salvation.

She follows ray comfort but also believes One can lose their

salvation if they sin.

She believes she does not sin.

I've shared much scripture with her.

She says if a christian does sin They need to again repent but has

not addressed my inquiry regarding the following.

Hebrews 10 says if we continue in sin willingly after Receiving the knowledge of the truth there

remains no more sacrifice for sin.

So my question is this if they believe that they can lose their salvation and they must repent.

I would assume They be I would assume there's a little typo here.

I would assume they Must be saved again.

I believe she must have meant the right.

How would this be accomplished if there is no more sacrifice for sin?

How do they believe they are saved again?

Thank you for your response.

I hope I am clear.

I am enjoying and And and benefiting from the show.

Yeah, that's an extreme form of sinless perfectionism.

Which john wesley believed was a possibility in theory, but but never believed he achieved it

but uh, that is even more Severe than the church of christ typically has because they

obviously believe they sin every day.

And don't lose their salvation because of it.

Um, depending upon the severity.

Yeah, but if you could and by the way ray comfort would not agree with this woman.

Who she claims to follow when I say this woman, I don't mean cindy in finley, ohio, I mean her friend

who says she follows ray comfort.

Ray comfort is a Theologically sound brother.

I don't believe he is a five -point calvinist.

At least he at one time was not but the he would definitely not agree with this woman that if you sin you

lose your salvation.

That's a pretty broad umbrella the word sin.

But if but if you could.

Well uh.

The idea of being right if

anyone

says he we do sin

and uh.

We should confess our sins and he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

And I think that should it is in reformed worship.

We have a time in which the congregation that we sin receive a an

assurance.

There is no way that we are able in this life.

We're still still in the flesh and we have but yet

there are a number of people coming up with this doctrine that you can be beyond it.

And you don't need to confess your sin as some people in our congregation who.

Congregation without in fact, this this is a good time.

I think to Bring up something very important that I think we may have ran out

of time during part one of our discussion to address this.

The folks in the church of christ who believe you can lose your salvation even if you are truly saved

Are very correct When they Uh are abhorred

by and radically reject and oppose The heresy that is

very common.

And especially modern day evangelicalism.

That is someone Uh can believe they are saved.

And and are told they are saved without Question that they are certainly

saved Just because of a past experience of going forward at an

altar call an invitation.

They may have raised their hand when they were six years old bible camp And accepted

jesus into their heart as the phrase goes.

And that person in many circles of evangelicalism Are told you are a

christian for the rest of your life and if that person Becomes a serial killer I'm

using an extreme example here Uh people who know that person in those circles will say

well, it's a tragedy that he became a serial killer.

But at least we know he'll be going to heaven, uh when he dies.

That is a unbiblical and wicked teaching and we agree with the church of christ that it is

uh antithetical to what the bible teaches but But the fact that we believe

works are necessary as reformed christians.

They're not necessary For a sinner to become saved or remain saved.

They are necessary evidence of what god has already done.

Am I right?

They follow

ourselves

imputed to us.

And it is when god works in our heart as the new birth.

He told nicodemus except a man be born from above He cannot see the kingdom of heaven and not understand

that change in the heart.

And that change in the heart leads to in the

life of

my hand

Salvation at all.

And just said

people are going to sin.

But if that happens if his life generally

refracts cured and there's a basis of assurance, you know, I've I have said and I want

you to.

Tell me whether you think this is an appropriate analogy.

I have told people who believe In a pelagian works righteousness

treadmill, although they would never call it that obviously uh, but they believe that that works

in some way Cooperate with their salvation and also cooperate with them remaining saved.

I have said to them If you see a child who?

Is a wonderful obedient Child to his or her

parents.

You see them mowing the lawn you see them running errands for

Their parents.

You see them Helping the parents clean the home Keeping it orderly and neat.

Uh, you see that child Obeying the rules of the household.

Not perfectly, of course, but with regularity And at the mark of that child's

life.

Is.

An obedient Child to his parents would you say that

that child has become?

That.

Uh those parents child.

Did that that child earn the right to be a son or daughter of those parents by what he has done?

Or what she has done.

Or is that an evidence?

That he or she loves their parents.

And uh that that I think is I have used as an analogy, uh

as far as people who think that We need to become children of god by earning it.

And we bring children of god by continuing to earn it.

Rather than it's just an evidence as jesus said a you know, good tree bears good

fruit and a bad tree bears bad fruit, so.

That's a very serious distinction, isn't it?

Yes, it is.

I mean it's it's a matter of eternity when you.

You know, there are many in the churches of christ who I would consider my brothers and sisters.

But when you reach the extreme stage Of being a full -blown pelagian of

believing that grace is not required.

Uh, or perhaps it's just a little nudge For you to not only become

saved but to remain saved there you're talking about damning teaching, aren't you?

That's the pelagians

and

arminians.

But the point is at the bottom line.

I go back to what I said earlier.

What is the deciding factor?

In who I am.

And if that deciding factor is faith in christ trust in christ.

That is manifest.

That is a basis.

Use an example here again to distinguish between

salvation by grace um the

Just

believe and live.

Right to be saved.

And accepts.

And he went on to

say neither one of them is true.

You must believe and live.

God loves and accepts everyone just as

they are.

That's.

But an expectation of reward not based on this but entirely

he said the gospel gives us a different

motivation to live.

And I added Not a license to sin.

The gospel is good news.

Not good advice.

Announcing that we have been rested has been done by

jesus christ.

It is the good news that god has accomplished our salvation for us through christ in order to bring us

into a right relationship With him and eventually to destroy all results of sin.

And he went on to say that was the problem of the

jews to establish their

own obviously trying to make themselves Right by their own works.

And he went on to say relativism

Will answer the other.

Legalism is not the

answer for relativism advice of their own

making with any system of

decision.

And he says legalism says follow rules.

Follow rules and give yourself a merit badge.

God invites us.

It has saved you.

Amen.

Amen.

Uh.

Cindy who wrote to us earlier from finley, ohio has something that

she wants clarified because I guess We missed answering this aspect of what she wrote.

She says I have shared all those scriptures with her from first.

John.

My question is if they think they could lose their salvation And there is no more

sacrifice for sin How do they think they are saved again?

Well, that's to deal with.

There is no more sacrifice.

What god has done he's done.

You can't look to any if it

can do salvation.

You're not to say there's nothing else.

And uh.

One one thing that is fascinating to me.

Is that.

Uh very frequently and I have to.

You know remind myself to be careful about how I phrase things because the church of christ.

And i'm speaking of the restorationist movement of the 19th century when I say that because both.

Both my guests and I believe we are in the church of christ.

But but not in the the restorationist movement.

That was led by thomas and alexander campbell and barton stone.

Um, but a frequently taught concept.

Is that a person who loses their salvation?

Can be saved again, but for some reason they do not require a second baptism.

Have you ever heard that explained?

An individual will say well, I really need to be baptized.

Not required but

the passage in

No further if christ

says you can come back.

By repenting of your sin and making acknowledgement of

that means coming back to salvation that you once had.

You can't lose salvation.

It's a gift.

Jesus promises that His sheep will be saved and that all that the father gives him he

will save.

He would be denying the christ in what he

intended to do if that were possible.

It isn't possible.

They don't need to be baptized again.

Chapter

3 9 is God is not willing that any of his people would perish but all of his people would come to

salvation and he draws.

Now we're going to go to a final break right now.

It's going to be brief more brief than the other breaks, but I want to ask you a question.

That you can answer when we return.

Something occurred to me Years ago when I was reading books by

various authors within the church of christ.

And it dawned on me.

And I and I could be wrong, but I think.

This is the only group of people Of whom I am aware.

And of course, I got to remember it's i'm not broad brushing here that not everybody is in unison over

these things.

But it's the only group from which there are teachers that I am aware.

Who believe that you could love god?

With all your heart.

And still enter into an eternity in hell.

Because you have misunderstood how to obey the the teaching and

command to be baptized.

Uh a reformed person for instance says that those who Uh truly

love god are going to be obedient to him and then they're not going to be perfectly obedient.

They're going to be their lives will be.

Uh.

Marked by sin and repentance uh, but.

A misunderstanding of baptism is not going to send them to hell and yet.

In the church of christ. It's the only place i've ever Developed an understanding from them

that you could love god with all your heart, but you're wrong on that issue.

You're going to hell and if you could comment on that when we return.

This is our this is our final, uh break folks.

So if you have a question send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

As always give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

We'll be right back with david lawrence right away.

James white of alphanomega ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend chris arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio

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Welcome back.

And dr. David Lawrence before the break.

I said in reading a number of different church of christ authors over the years I

came to the conclusion that a very prominent teaching although it would May not be actually

Said in these specific words, but it's something that could be deduced From the

teaching of many in the church of christ is that you could love jesus With your whole heart

mind and soul, but you have an incorrect understanding of baptism and that alone Will send you

to hell.

And.

That that is a foreign understanding.

To reform theology.

In fact, I don't know of any other sect or denomination within christianity Where that would be a

logical conclusion, but in the church of christ, they seem to be the only one that that could say.

Yes, you could love god in every way, but if you don't get baptized in their understanding of biblical

correctness You're going to hell.

Yes, that is egregious.

It's outrageous.

Um, I can give you an example.

I could probably give you several examples.

One from somebody in our had been a believer.

He'd been baptized but he

Indeed consistent with he had not been

for the remission of sins with that having been said.

And his affirming talked him

into being baptized for the remission of sins.

And when I mentioned to the son I talked with him years ago and he said he was saved.

He was a christian he didn't believe in christ need for this and

his he wasn't baptized for the remission of sins.

But before he died he was baptized.

Loves

god

with

all

of his heart.

Why does he love god with all of his heart?

Because god has been at work.

The holy spirit has been working his life to create faith.

And the holy spirit led him into a life Where he commits himself to loving

god and

that's freedom

about

faith.

Spirit as we have defined it

it is.

I mean material and the

emphasis and baptism is that and then

what they would not admit.

But it's true because those who are in charge can dictate what

what in fact

I have heard.

And it's not second -hand knowledge from my own ears or in my own ears.

I've heard at least five different church of christ ministers.

Tell me when i've had conversations with them.

Uh, so you're saying that somebody is just wrong on the area of baptism.

They could be obedient to christ in every other way and love christ.

But they will be banished from heaven and sent to hell because they had a misunderstanding of baptism.

And the answer has been.

Well, I guess there would be an exception possibly.

If they were driving to the church.

To get baptized and were killed in an automobile accident.

I'm not kidding you.

That is what I have actually heard from five at least five different ministers in the church of christ.

So if i've heard that at least five different times, it must be a commonly uttered phrase.

Oh, I used to be living a

christian life.

When I was uh.

Hearing from my brother my older brother andrew who was at the time attending a baptist

church.

When I was telling him that I was visiting my other brother's Church where he was attending the church of christ

my older brother andy.

Said.

They're roman catholics and I was like, what are you talking about?

There's nothing that resembles roman catholicism when you go there.

There's no statues.

There's no priest with a clerical collar.

There's no Ceremony and incense and all that because and he said no it's

basically the same thing when it comes to a constant fear that no matter who you

are no matter how Faithful you are as a christian.

You can go to hell at any moment and it's a rich.

It's a ceremony based salvation In regard to baptism in the

lord's supper and I and I have to admit I think my brother had a valid point there.

What do you think?

Yes, definitely.

Existence fear what

may

be touched.

A blazing fire and a

voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them.

For they could not endure the order that was given.

Even if a beast touches the mountain It shall be stoned indeed.

So terrifying was the sight that moses said I tremble with fear now.

You can

just hear you see grace to the city of the

living god The heavenly jerusalem It just

made perfect and to jesus

the mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word.

Than the blood of abel.

Amen.

Well, we're out of time and I want to make sure our listeners have your website.

Stevens valley church.

I'm, sorry stevens valley dot church.

That's s t e p h E n s valley dot church.

Thank you so much.

Dr. David lawrence I look forward to your frequent return to iron trumpets iron radio and I want Thank you very much.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior Than you

are a sinner.