Laborers’ Podcast- Abortion part 2

Number two on abortion. We hope you will stick with us.

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Abolitionism as a Call to End Abortion, Not Regulate It

Now let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast, we've got.

Tyler back with us tonight. How are you doing Tyler?

Doing all right. Happy to be here.

Great.

And brother Matt is with us. We finally got Matt back. It's been a while. It's been a while. We're glad to have you back. It's good to be here. Wasn't sure I was going to make it the way I felt the last couple of days, but mostly recovered.

So glad to be here tonight. We are certainly glad that you're with us. And so I wanted to pause just for a second and we're not going to do any advertisements. We're going to jump right into it because we want to continue this serious conversation.

We want to call people from apathy to action. We want to elevate this conversation, elevate this issue to the status that it needs to be. So if you guys right now, this is something unique. I don't think that I've ever done before, but you guys that are listening and, and for you that listen or watch the recording, if you're not watching it live, but listening or watching later please do this as well.

Take out your device, go to your favorite social media, Facebook, or YouTube, wherever you are and share this podcast. So I want to do that right now. I'm going to go to, and we're not trying to get followers.

We are not trying to be popular. We are simply wanting to glorify God and speak about things that are important to.

Him.

So I'm going right now and I'm sharing this because we, we think that this issue in this topic is that important that we, we began to have this conversation. This conversation is happening in circles.

I know, you know, Tyler and Matt are probably familiar, but you may not be familiar with, but they are good conversations. There are folks that are hearing the call of God. They are taking action, going to the streets, going to the courthouse, going to the legislators.

We have people in action right now that are, that are working, that are preaching and doing their due diligence. But we need all of God's people to continue the conversation and get to action. So we are talking about the issue of abortion.

Let's, let's start off where we finished last week. Guys, we were talking about in, in the abolitionist movement. It's, it's pretty popular to talk about the five tenets of, of abolitionism. And just a reminder, last conversation we had, we were making a distinction between the pro-life movement, the pro-life industry, especially, and the results of what's going on in that realm has given rise to an abolitionist movement, which is, which is a good thing, which is where we should have been all along.

And, and people in their hearts, I believe in their hearts and their conscience. That's where they want to be. That's where they think they are. But we, we made that distinction. We try to make that clear that there is a distinction.

But the five tenets of being an abolitionist against abortion. First one is no exceptions. Second one, no compromise. And we're on the third one. And I'll let you guys make some comments about this. The third tenet here that I'm looking at is abolish and not regulate.

Matt, we'll, we'll start with you since you haven't been with us in a while. When you hear that, or when you've studied that, read up on that, where are they coming from when they say abolish, not regulate?

I think it comes down to, excuse me, when you look at the legislation that the pro-life movement, these pro-life legislators are putting out, and you'll hear a lot of times that it, from the pro-life groups that abortion is not healthcare, but the way these laws that they are writing, the wording in them basically allows for abortion to be healthcare.

They,.

These laws set the guidelines of when it's acceptable, under what conditions it can be carried out. So in that sense, they are legislating it or regulating it however you want to look at it. They're allowing the practice to continue under certain guidelines, whereas the abolitionist movement, the bills that they are putting forward completely eliminate abortion.

There's no circumstances under which it's allowed. So it's abolish it, get rid of it completely or allow it with this set of circumstances in place. Tyler, you have anything to add on the regulation versus abolish?

I mean, I think it kind of speaks for itself, honestly, a little bit that that's what the angle is, is to abolish abortion as opposed to gradually moving that, that, that a goal post.

Yeah.

And that's what they like to use the word incrementalism moving, moving in that direction. But as we talked about in the last conversation, it seems like it seems,.

And it, it,.

It seems I'm going to use the right words here. It seems to be very clear to a lot of people could be wrong. I could be wrong. And I'm always open to correction. But when it comes to pro-life industries, pro-life movement in certain circles, the reason that they move incrementally is because they, they really don't want it to end.

They,.

They want to continue to, to bring in money.

If,.

If you,.

If you abolish it completely, then you, you end not only abortion, but you end industry, you end organization, you end money income, you end funding for your campaign.

And,.

And I just want to speak real. I know Tyler is not exactly where I am on this issue and that's okay. And that's why we have this conversation. And Matt, I'd love to hear more about, you know, where you stand, how comfortable, however comfortable you are telling us about where, where you fall on this issue.

But, um,.

You know,.

I'm,.

I'm wanting to speak plain and speak clear tonight.

Um,.

There's a lot of these industries and organizations that are funding campaigns. And if, if that money is not there, then you're missing out on a lot of funding for your campaign. And if you abolish abortion, you abolished campaign money.

And I'm, I don't want, I want to be very careful. I learned this a long time ago about making umbrella statements, generalized statements, calling everybody out.

Um,.

Saying this is, this is what's going on everywhere. Not everybody's like that, but it seems that this is what's going on. And when we talk about regulate,.

Um,.

I know this is, this is a hot topic.

Um,.

And unfortunately, just like any other hot topic, it dies down and it dies down too quickly. But I want to keep up the conversation.

I'm,.

I'm in North Carolina. They just passed a 12 week ban.

Well,.

Guess what? That's still a regulation bill.

You're,.

You're regulating who can,.

Uh,.

When a person can be murdered. Basically in plain terms, you are regulating when a person can be murdered and people want to argue,.

Well,.

That's a step in the right direction. But listen, we have the super majority right now in North Carolina. If they wanted to, they could have put an abolition bill. It get vetoed by the governor, which is what their bill did.

They overrode the governor and passed it anyway. If they wanted to abolish it completely, they had the means to do it and they did. Which makes no sense to me. So I'm asking the question and I'm asking other people in North Carolina the question, who were they truly compromising with?

Because it's not the Democrats. They didn't have to walk across the aisle. They, they just put up their hands to the people across the aisle and said, we're going to pass our bill. It got vetoed. It doesn't matter.

We're going to override it. And why couldn't they do that with an abolition bill?

Um,.

Matt, when it, when we talk about regulation, does that include the,.

Um,.

Exceptions that are included in these bills?

I,.

I would say yes. Back to your question earlier, I will say that I am firmly in the abolitionist camp, but at the same time, I'll say probably maybe two to three years ago now, even when I first really became aware of that.

And I think that is the key is just letting people know to kind of see to come at it from a different perspective, to come at it from that biblical perspective, really look at what the pro-life these bills say and what they're doing.

So for those who aren't completely on board, I think sometimes it's just out of ignorance. So I think there is a lot of education to do some people. It's obviously not,.

But yeah,.

I do think the exceptions are part of that regulation. Again, it's essentially what they're saying is if you fit into X,.

Y,.

Z category, then your life doesn't mean as much as those in this other category. For example, take the 12 week ban that you just talked about. Say there's, I don't know what, if there's exceptions there, but generally the exceptions are for rape, incest, health of the mother.

In those cases, you're essentially saying a child conceived in rape, their life is not valuable, so they're okay to kill. So I do believe those exceptions are part of the regulation. Yes. And I think there's answers to those exceptions and why they, why they shouldn't be included in these bills.

And you know, you mentioned one of them, the rape and incest, which from my understanding is a very low percentage. Of abortions that happen,.

Um,.

Life of the mother, you know, that incident is taken care of in the Hippocratic oath. You know, going back to the very beginning, the Hippocratic oath, you want to save, do your best effort to save everyone.

Um,.

And that would, that would include the child and the mother.

Um,.

So yeah,.

I,.

I agree with you. How's it going? Pastor Jonathan.

Thank you guys.

Sorry.

I had a graduation.

Cool.

Um, any,.

Anything that you would like to add? We were just at the beginning and,.

Uh,.

We were talking about the five tenants of abolitionism,.

Um,.

Doing what Matt was talking about, education,.

Um,.

Conversation,.

Um,.

Letting people know that there's an alternative out there.

Um,.

And what we're on right now is the last three, the first one, abolish, not regulate. What are your thoughts on abolish and not regulate?

Yeah,.

I,.

I would have to say that every, every pro-life person should have,.

Um,.

A heart to abolish abortion.

Um,.

Every, every ministry that I'm a part of seeks to see an end to an abortion.

Um,.

We're,.

We're very involved in a pro-life ministry and that's part of their, their mission statement is to see an end to an abortion in our lifetime.

And, um,.

So,.

Um,.

So I think there's,.

Uh,.

There's different groups and different ones that say,.

Hey,.

I'm an abolitionist. And sometimes you have to have a definition of,.

Okay,.

What do you mean by that?

You know,.

Just like if someone says,.

Hey,.

I'm a Calvinist, all the people always ask me all the time, are you a Calvinist?

And I was like,.

Well,.

Won't you tell me what you think Calvinist is? And I'll tell you if that's me.

So,.

Um, so a hundred percent, you know,.

We, we, we have,.

Sorry,.

We have a,.

Uh,.

A desire to see abortion come to an end and,.

Um, and,.

And to where I think there's some tension and we'll probably get into. That is,.

Is,.

Um,.

I consider processes of sanctification. If some of those happen, I think we can in some way, celebrate steps in the right direction, but that's not, not the be all end all. That's not, that will never be satisfied until, until abortion is ended in this injustice is ended.

So I think, I think that's a very important thing. And just to mention what you were talking as I was jumping on about,.

Um,.

The justification in some areas of rape or incest or mother's life,.

You know, that,.

That represents on, on the very high end,.

Um,.

Maybe 3 to 5 of abortions. That, that would be being extremely generous.

Um,.

Most likely it's less than 1 of abortions,.

Um,.

Are in those extreme scenarios. And so, so it's really not a justification for the continuation,.

Uh,.

At all.

So,.

Um,.

So it's,.

It's,.

It's something that is a, a mark on our society and,.

Um,.

A grievous sin in our, in our world and especially in our nation.

So.

Criminalization, Justice, and the Limits of Prosecution

Let's hop on to the next one. And this, this will bring in some questions, some good conversation, and we'll bring in a question that big John wanted to talk about last time. So we'll bring in his question.

So the fourth tenant that we're going to talk about is,.

Uh,.

Criminalizes abortion, the criminalization of abortion. So if it's, if it's murder and we already have laws on the book concerning murder, do we agree that,.

Um,.

As,.

As a Christian,.

There,.

There should be consequences when we murder someone. What say you guys?

Sure.

I'll go first. So I would definitely say that there are,.

Um,.

Criminal penalties in the case of murder and that what we mean when we're talking about criminalization in the subject of abortion really, in a sense, comes down to consistency with how we're looking at murder across the board, how we're looking at,.

Um,.

The subjects, regardless of circumstance, regardless of outcome,.

If,.

If it's abortion, if it's serial murder, if it's a bank heist or whatever, that murder is murder. Now we handle it,.

Um,.

The same within certain parameters across the board. And where that gets sticky with,.

Um,.

Abortion is we have a tendency to,.

Um,.

Sometimes put people that have abortions in a different category because there's a lot of emotions packed into abortion. There's a lot of,.

Of,.

Of emotions this way and that way.

Um, um,.

Just got a comment from a rumble,.

Uh,.

From a chugs, one 45 purple. It makes lifelong. It takes lifelong manipulation and dependence more prop probable. If a person is convinced to make a decision, they will regret that there's, there's a lot of feelings packed into this.

It's,.

It's complicated. It's nuanced. And all of this has a tendency to muddy the water when we talk about justice and legality. And that's, I think where it tends to get sticky with,.

Um,.

The abolition conversation, at least in the circles I've been in. Because when you talk about sending moms to jail, that's usually not a fun conversation here in the Greenville area. When you, or some of the abolition circles would even say that doesn't go far enough and they should be executed.

And that's some of the dialogue is what is, what is the penalty there? And how does that, how do we flesh this out? I'm curious to hear some of your perspectives on this. All I've heard is the death penalty.

So,.

Um, I'm,.

I'm curious just in the fleshing this out, how you guys, I guess, dialogue with that.

So I would on a knee jerk, obviously say on, on the very surface,.

Um,.

I would be an advocate for it being criminalized. The problem is with things like abortion.

Um,.

There's so many layers,.

Um,.

That are attached to that,.

That,.

Um,.

At what point is it considered something that's, that's prosecutable,.

You know? And,.

And so that's, that's where it gets very difficult. And then,.

You know,.

On,.

On the very clear side of it, the resources,.

Uh,.

Of the justice system to prosecute effectively and justly.

Um,.

We,.

We are very limited in that. That's not an excuse not to prosecute, but we have, our constitution requires there to be swift and just action.

Um,.

A person is, has a right to a trial by a jury and those kinds of things. And so you have, you have crimes that should be very prosecutable taking years if on years, upon years to prosecute.

Um,.

And so,.

Um,.

So that would be. My first question is, I think there has to be very real executable,.

Um,.

Decisions in legislation that clarify real clear what's prosecutable and what's.

Not.

For example, do we prosecute a mother that mismanages her pregnancy and maybe was not intending abortion, but because of her mismanagement or even an action of omission, causes a miscarriage? Is that a prosecutable thing?

Even though she, it was her fault, but it was, but it was a crime of omission,.

You know?

So at what, what level,.

Um,.

And there really are some very,.

Uh,.

Radical proposals.

Uh,.

Like I said,.

I don't know that I would be for the death penalty for a mother that, that makes this decision because there are circumstances of abuse and there are circumstances of, of force,.

Um, you know,.

Coercion,.

Coercion, there's abusers, there's pimps that's bringing their,.

Their,.

Their women in there forcing them,.

You know,.

For lack of better terms,.

Seeing Greenville, we are a hub for human trafficking,.

Right?

And you are, that's not going to be a rare occurrence. If you go out to the mill to find people that are being trafficked.

That's correct. So that's what I'm trying to say is,.

Um,.

When,.

When you get below the surface of saying it, should it be prosecutable? Should there be prosecution for the act of abortion on the doctors, on the mothers or anybody involved that's complicit in it? I would say yes, but I would also say that there's going to have to be a level of laws that, that evaluated on a case by case situation and which will create a,.

A,.

An entire culture of, of lawyers and, and judges. It almost needs its own. It's such a huge issue. It almost needs its own,.

Um,.

Own system to manage it. When we think about the size of this industry in, in our culture. And so, so I don't think there's any short solution. I think that's the thing when it comes to prosecuting.

Now,.

I think we can come to very short decisions when it comes to legislation on the abolishment of abortion. I don't see a short solution personally in prosecution, even though I think I would, I personally would be an advocate for that.

Um, and then,.

And I think we're talking about the roles of the, the laws of government and of the land, but we also do need to deal with the role of the church in that too.

You know,.

What is the role of the church?

And,.

And I think that's where this gets murky because I don't think it is the role of the church personally to be the prosecutors.

Um,.

I don't think that's our job. I don't think that's our calling. I don't think that's what scripture gives us commands. It tells us in the book of Romans is very clear. That's the job of government to punish those who do evil,.

To,.

To do,.

To honor them, that do good.

You know, that's,.

That should be the role of the church is to still promote the gospel to promote forgiveness because abortion is not the impartable sin. And the reality is this, we start dealing with statistically that one in three women in the United States of America have had an abortion.

Then then at what point do you realize that that's,.

You know,.

33 of the women in the United States of America have had an abortion. So if that's the case,.

Um,.

I think the church has to hold attention there with standing for truth, but just like our network, we're standing for truth,.

But we're,.

We're doing this very lovingly that, that we're pleading with people to come to the truth and that there is a grace. There is a forgiveness. There is a redemption,.

Uh,.

From very heinous sin. There is redemption and there's hope for this. So some of our greatest,.

Uh,.

Impactors of, of pro-life movement and abolition movement are those who's actually had abortions. Are women who's had abortions. Some of our greatest counselors are standing on the sidewalk, pleading with women not to follow through with this or women who've had an abortion.

And,.

And so as a result of that, they're not pleading from a position of perfection.

Uh,.

They're pleading with a license to say,.

Hey,.

I have failed in this and I'm pleading from a position that you don't have to.

Bear what I, what I bore,.

You know, and,.

And there is a legitimate post-abortion syndrome. There is legitimate,.

Um,.

Damage and trauma from this.

So,.

So I think there's a truth in love aspect of it.

Uh,.

There is law of the land, but then there's the grace of the gospel. And I think the church has a really hard time sometimes walking that tight line,.

Uh,.

You know,.

Managing that really. Well,.

Uh,.

To love people right in their sin and to love people even if they've made a sinful decision.

So,.

So I think that's,.

That's,.

That's the heart behind this conversation, that it's not just a,.

Yeah,.

Let's prosecute all of them.

Well,.

I mean,.

Yeah,.

Sure.

But there, there's a lot that goes into that. And then the role of the church in the midst of that is very important.

So I think there's a fine line between a justice for the oppressed justice,.

Um,.

Equal protection for all parties and trying to punish people with the heavy hand of the state.

Sure.

Sure.

And there's still there. And there are two states that currently have,.

Uh,.

Have law that are prosecuting those who practice and work the abortion. Nevada and South Carolina both have laws on the books that, that do prosecute abortion. But there is, so there, there are work in progress,.

You know, and they're,.

They're continuing debate through those things. But there are laws on their books that,.

Um,.

That do have legislation,.

Um,.

In those things. And it's in, and they, they identified as criminal criminalizing self managing abortion. So it's how they, the term that they use.

Um,.

And uh, so you know,.

It's,.

It's a, it's a wide case. It's a wide number of things that deal with in those.

So you hit on a lot of things, Jonathan, that need to be brought back up in these conversations as part of the education for Christians so that they can, they can know what they're hearing. When they're listening to a pro-choice advocate who were, who's giving them arguments.

When they're listening to somebody on the pro-life side, abolition side, these things need to be fleshed out to help give people an education and understanding of what's going on.

Uh,.

One of those things that you were talking about and bringing up was,.

Um, oh,.

It just left me.

Uh,.

But I will go ahead and bring up the other one while I'm thinking about it. Trying to flesh all these things out when it comes to laws.

Um,.

It, if,.

If it is murder,.

We,.

We've been dealing with murder for a long time and I'm just, just get your thoughts on this. We've been dealing with murder for a long time, ever since Cain and Abel and murder. Murder has been a law or against the law for a long time.

And so they're probably, and this is probably the extent of the law that I know.

Um,.

When,.

When you study law, you study cases that have been,.

Um,.

Dealt with by judges previously.

Um,.

So it seems like these different scenarios that we're looking for when it comes to abortion. If we're going to see this child from fertilization as a person, they are killed. There probably a lot of cases that have handled some of those different scenarios that we're talking about already and could be applicable to these scenarios when it comes to murdering the person who was in the womb.

For instance, the coercion one that that's probably been a case that's been settled already.

Where,.

What do you do in a case of coercion? I would, why can I think of the other thing that I wanted to mention?

Um,.

I'll come back to it.

Uh,.

I know another one is, and I think you and I've talked about it before is the being retroactive. And I've, I think that you may have heard people have that conversation. I've never heard anybody who is for criminalization of abortion pro being retroactive,.