Laborers’ Podcast- Abortion part 2

Truth in Love Network

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May 26, 2023

What is abolitionism? Answering questions and objections. Calling for action.

TiL- A Defense of Cessationism part 3

00:00: Number two on abortion. We hope you will stick with us. Welcome to the laborers podcast, which is a part of the truth in love network.
00:09: Join us as together. We strive to grow up together in all things into Christ subscribe and follow the truth and love network on Facebook, YouTube, rumble,
00:21: Spotify, and iTunes now let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast, we've got
00:33: Tyler back with us tonight. How are you doing Tyler? Doing all right. Happy to be here. Great. And brother
00:39: Matt is with us. We finally got Matt back. It's been a while. It's been a while.
00:45: We're glad to have you back. It's good to be here. Wasn't sure I was going to make it the way I felt the last couple of days, but, um, mostly recovered.
00:54: So glad to be here tonight. We are certainly glad that you're with us. And so I wanted to pause just for a second and we're not going to do any advertisements.
01:03: We're going to jump right into it because, uh, we want to continue this serious conversation. We want to call people from apathy to action.
01:13: We want to elevate this conversation, elevate this issue to the status that it needs to be.
01:19: So, um, if you guys right now, this is something unique. I don't think that I've ever done before, but you guys that are listening and, and for you that listen or watch the recording, um, if you're not watching it live, but listening or watching later, uh, please do this as well, take out your device, go to your favorite social media,
01:46: Facebook or YouTube, where you are and share this podcast.
01:52: So I want to do that right now. I'm going to go to, and we're not trying to get followers.
01:59: We are not trying to be popular. We are simply wanting to glorify
02:06: God and speak about things that are important to him. So I'm going right now and I'm sharing this because we, we think that this issue in this topic is that important that we, we began to have this conversation, this conversation is happening, um, in, in circles.
02:25: I know, you know, Tyler and Matt are probably familiar, but you may not be familiar with, um, but they are good conversations.
02:34: There are, uh, folks that are hearing the call of God. They are taking action, going to the streets, going to the courthouse, going to the legislators.
02:45: We have people in action right now that are, that are working, that are preaching and, uh, doing their due diligence, but we need all of God's people to continue the conversation and get to action.
02:58: So we are talking about the issue of abortion. Um, let's, let's start off where we finished last week, guys.
03:11: We were talking about in, in the abolitionist movement, it's, it's pretty popular to talk about the five tenets of, of abolitionism.
03:22: And, and just a reminder, last conversation we had, we were making a distinction between the pro -life movement, the pro -life industry, especially, and the results of what's going on in that realm has given rise to an abolitionist movement, which is, which is a good thing, which is where we should have been all along.
03:47: Um, and, and people in their hearts, I believe in their hearts and their conscience, that's where they want to be.
03:53: That's where they think they are. But we, we made that distinction. We try to make that clear that there is a distinction, um, but the five tenets of being an abolitionist against abortion, um, first one is no exceptions, second one, no compromise.
04:11: And we're on the third one. And I'll let you guys make some comments about this. The third tenet here that I'm looking at, uh, is abolish and not regulate.
04:27: Matt, we'll, we'll start with you since, um, you haven't been with us in a while. When you hear that, or when you've studied that, read up on that, where are they coming from when they say abolish, not regulate?
04:41: I think it comes down to, excuse me, when you look at the legislation that the pro -life movement, these pro -life legislators are putting out, and you'll hear a lot of times that it, from the pro -life groups that abortion is not healthcare, but the way these laws that they are writing the wording in them, basically allows for abortion to be healthcare.
05:15: They, these laws set the guidelines of when it's acceptable under what conditions it can be carried out.
05:24: So in that sense, they are legislating it or regulating it.
05:30: However you want to look at it, they're allowing the practice to continue under certain guidelines.
05:40: Whereas the abolitionist movement, the bills that they are putting forward completely eliminate abortion.
05:49: There's no circumstances under which it's allowed. So it's abolish it, get rid of it completely, or allow it with this set of circumstances in place.
06:07: Tyler, you have anything to add on the regulation versus abolish? I mean,
06:15: I think it kind of speaks for itself, honestly, a little bit. That's what the angle is, is to abolish abortion as opposed to gradually moving that goalpost.
06:32: Yeah, and that's what's, they like to use the word incrementalism, moving in that direction.
06:40: But as we talked about in the last conversation, it seems like, it seems, and it seems,
06:52: I want to use the right words here, it seems to be very clear to a lot of people, could be wrong,
07:03: I could be wrong, and I'm always open to correction, but when it comes to pro -life industries, pro -life movement in certain circles, the reason that they move incrementally is because they really don't want it to end.
07:20: They want to continue to bring in money. If you abolish it completely, then you end not only abortion, but you end industry, you end organization, you end money income, you end funding for your campaign.
07:35: And I just want to speak real. I know Tyler is not exactly where I am on this issue, and that's okay, and that's why we have this conversation.
07:45: And Matt, I'd love to hear more about, you know, where you stand, how comfortable, however comfortable you are telling us about where you fall on this issue.
07:54: But, you know, I'm wanting to speak plain and speak clear tonight. There's a lot of these industries and organizations that are funding campaigns.
08:05: And if that money is not there, then you're missing out on a lot of funding for your campaign.
08:13: And if you abolish abortion, you abolished campaign money. And I don't want,
08:22: I want to be very careful. I learned this a long time ago about making umbrella statements, generalized statements, calling everybody out, saying this is what's going on everywhere.
08:35: Not everybody's like that, but it seems that this is what's going on. And when we talk about regulate,
08:43: I know this is a hot topic. And unfortunately, just like any other hot topic, it dies down and it dies down too quickly.
08:53: But I want to keep up the conversation. I'm in North Carolina. They just passed a 12 -week ban.
09:00: Well, guess what? That's still a regulation bill. You're regulating who can, when a person can be murdered, basically.
09:09: In plain terms, you are regulating when a person can be murdered. And people want to argue, well, that's a step in the right direction.
09:19: But listen, we have the super majority right now in North Carolina.
09:25: If they wanted to, they could have put an abolition bill, it get vetoed by the governor, which is what their bill did.
09:34: They overrode the governor and passed it anyway. If they wanted to abolish it completely, they had the means to do it and they didn't, which makes no sense to me.
09:47: So I'm asking the question and I'm asking other people in North Carolina the question, who were they truly compromising with?
09:54: Because it's not the Democrats. They didn't have to walk across the aisle. They just put up their hands to the people across the aisle and said, we're going to pass our bill.
10:06: It got vetoed. It doesn't matter. We're going to override it. And why couldn't they do that with an abolition bill?
10:13: Matt, when we talk about regulation, does that include the exceptions that are included in these bills?
10:24: I would say yes. And back to your question earlier,
10:30: I will say that I am firmly in the abolitionist camp, but at the same time,
10:39: I'll say probably maybe two to three years ago now is even when
10:46: I first really became aware of that. I think that is the key is just letting people know to kind of see, to come at it from a different perspective, to come at it from that biblical perspective, really look at what the pro -life, these bills say and what they're doing.
11:11: So for those who aren't completely on board, I think sometimes it's just out of ignorance, so I think there is a lot of education to do some people.
11:25: It's obviously not, but yeah, I do think the exceptions are part of that regulation.
11:32: Again, it's essentially what they're saying is if you fit into X, Y, Z category, then your life doesn't mean as much as those in this other category.
11:50: For example, take the 12 -week ban that you just talked about.
11:55: Say there's, I don't know what, if there's exceptions there, but generally the exceptions are for rape, incest, health of the mother.
12:03: In those cases, you're essentially saying a child conceived in rape, their life is not valuable, so they're okay to kill.
12:16: So I do believe those exceptions are part of the regulation, yes.
12:24: And I think there's answers to those exceptions and why they shouldn't be included in these bills.
12:34: And you mentioned one of them, the rape and incest, which from my understanding is a very low percentage of abortions that happen, life of the mother.
12:47: That incident is taken care of in the Hippocratic Oath, going back to the very beginning, the
12:53: Hippocratic Oath, you want to save, do your best effort to save everyone.
13:01: And that would include the child and the mother. So, yeah,
13:09: I agree with you. How's it going, Pastor Jonathan? Good, guys. Sorry, I had a graduation.
13:16: Got here as quick as I could. Cool, cool. Anything that you would like to add?
13:23: We were just at the beginning and we were talking about the five tenets of abolitionism. Doing what
13:29: Matt was talking about, education, conversation, letting people know that there's an alternative out there.
13:37: And what we're on right now is the last three. The first one, abolish, not regulate. What are your thoughts on abolish and not regulate?
13:46: Yeah, I would have to say that every pro -life person should have a heart to abolish abortion.
13:57: Every ministry that I'm a part of seeks to see an end to an abortion. We're very involved in a pro -life ministry and that's part of their mission statement is to see an end to an abortion in our lifetime.
14:12: And so I think there's different groups and different ones that say, hey,
14:22: I'm an abolitionist. And sometimes you have to have a definition of, OK, what do you mean by that? It's like if someone says, hey,
14:28: I'm a Calvinist, people always ask me all the time, are you a Calvinist? And I was like, well, won't you tell me what you think Calvinist is?
14:33: And I'll tell you if that's me. So, 100%, you know, we have a desire to see abortion come to an end.
14:50: And to where I think there's some tension and we'll probably get into that is I consider processes of sanctification.
14:59: If some of those happen, I think we can in some way celebrate steps in the right direction. But that's not not the be all end all.
15:06: That's not that will never be satisfied until until abortion is ended and this injustice is ended.
15:15: So I think I think that's a very important thing. And just to mention what you were talking as I was jumping on about the justification in some areas of rape or incest or mother's life, you know, that represents on the very high end, maybe three percent to five percent of abortions that that would be being extremely generous.
15:38: Most likely, it's less than one percent of abortions are in those extreme scenarios.
15:46: And so so it's really not a justification for the continuation.
15:52: At all. So so it's it's it's something that is a mark on our society and a grievous sin in our in our world and especially in our nation.
16:07: So let's hop on to the next one. And this this will bring in some questions, some good conversation, and we'll bring in a question that John wanted to talk about last time.
16:17: So we'll bring in his question. So the fourth tenet that we're going to talk about is criminalizes abortion, the criminalization of abortion.
16:29: So if it's if it's murder. And we already have laws on the book concerning murder, do we agree that as a
16:46: Christian, there should be consequences when we murder someone? What say you guys?
17:02: Sure, I'll go first. So I would definitely say that there are criminal penalties in the case of murder and that what we mean when we're talking about criminalization in the subject of abortion really, in a sense, comes down to consistency with how we're looking at murder across the board, how we're looking at the subjects, regardless of circumstance, regardless of outcome.
17:34: If if it's abortion, if it's serial murder, if it's a bank heist or whatever, that murder is murder.
17:44: Now, we handle it the same within certain parameters across the board.
17:50: And where that gets sticky with abortion is we have a tendency to sometimes put people that have abortions in a different category because there's a lot of emotions packed into abortion.
18:05: There's a lot of of emotions this way and that way. She's got a comment from Rumble from Chugs 145
18:16: Purple. It makes lifelong it takes lifelong manipulation and dependence more probable if a person is convinced to make a decision they will regret.
18:28: Now, there's there's a lot of feelings packed in this. It's it's complicated. It's nuanced. And all this has a tendency to muddy the water when we talk about justice and legality.
18:39: And that's, I think, where it tends to get sticky with the abolition conversation, at least in the circles
18:46: I've been in, because when you talk about sending moms to jail, that's usually not a fun conversation here in the
18:55: Greenville area. When you or some of the abolition circles would even say that doesn't go far enough and they should be executed.
19:03: And that's some of the dialogue is what is what is the penalty there and how does that how do we flesh this out?
19:11: I'm curious to hear some of your perspectives on this. All I've heard is the death penalty. So I'm I'm curious just in the fleshing this out, how you guys,
19:23: I guess, dialogue with that. So.
19:28: I would, on a knee jerk, obviously say on the very surface,
19:37: I would be an advocate for it being criminalized. The problem is with things like abortion, there's so many layers that are attached to that that.
19:54: At what point is it considered something that's that's prosecutable, you know, and and so that's that's where it gets very difficult.
20:05: And then, you know, on on the very clear side of it, the resources of the justice system to prosecute effectively and justly.
20:19: We are very limited in that. That's not an excuse not to prosecute. But but we have our constitution requires there to be swift and just action.
20:32: A person is has a right to a trial by jury and those kind of things. So you have you have crimes that should be very prosecutable, taking years, if on years, upon years to prosecute.
20:49: And so so that would be my first question is, I think there has to be very real executable decisions in legislation that clarify real clear what's prosecutable and what's not.
21:08: For example, do we prosecute a mother that mismanages her pregnancy and maybe was not intending abortion, but because of her mismanagement or even an action of omission causes a miscarriage?
21:22: Is that a prosecutable thing, even though she she it was her fault, but it was but it was a crime of omission?
21:29: You know, so at what what level? And there really are some very radical proposals.
21:39: Like I said, I don't know that I would be for the death penalty for a mother that that makes this decision because there are circumstances of abuse and there are circumstances of of force, you know, coercion, coercion.
21:58: There's abusers, there's pimps that's bringing their their their women in there forcing them, you know, for lack of better terms.
22:06: Seeing Greenville, we are a hub for human trafficking. Right. And you are that's not going to be a rare occurrence if you go out to the middle to find people that are being trafficked.
22:16: That's correct. So that's what I'm trying to say is when when you get below the surface of saying it, should it be prosecutable?
22:24: Should there be prosecution for the act of abortion on the doctors, on the mothers or anybody involved that's complicit in it?
22:31: I would say yes. But I would also say that there's going to have to be a level of laws that that evaluated on a case by case situation and which will create a a an entire culture of of lawyers and and judges.
22:51: It almost needs its own. It's such a huge issue. It almost needs its own own system to manage it when we think about the size of this industry in in our culture.
23:06: And so so I don't think there's any short solution. I think that's the thing when it comes to prosecuting.
23:13: Now, I think we can come to very short decisions when it comes to legislation on the abolishment of abortion.
23:20: I don't see a short solution personally in prosecution, even though I think
23:26: I personally would be an advocate for that. And then and I think we're talking about the roles of the the laws of government and of the land.
23:36: But we also need to deal with the role of the church in that, too. You know, what is the role of the church?
23:41: And and I think that's where this gets murky, because I don't think it is the role of the church personally to be the prosecutors.
23:48: I don't think that's our job. I don't think that's our calling. I don't think that's what Scripture gives us commands.
23:54: It tells us in the Book of Romans is very clear. That's the job of government to punish those who do evil, to do it, to honor them that do good.
24:01: You know, that's that should be the role of the role of the church is to still promote the gospel, to promote forgiveness, because abortion is not the impartable sin.
24:12: And the reality is this start dealing with statistically that one in three women in the United States of America have had an abortion.
24:21: Then then at what point do you realize that that's, you know, 33 percent of the women in the
24:29: United States of America have had an abortion? So if that's the case, I think the church has to hold attention there with standing for truth.
24:39: But just like our network, we're standing for truth. But we're we're doing this very lovingly that that we're pleading with people to come to the truth and that there is a grace, there is a forgiveness, there is a redemption from very heinous sin.
24:53: There is redemption and there's hope for this. So some of our greatest impactors of of pro -life movement and abolition movement are those who actually had abortions are women who's had abortions.
25:06: Some of our greatest counselors are standing on the sidewalk pleading with women not to follow through with this are women who've had an abortion.
25:14: And and so as a result of that, they're not pleading from a position of perfection.
25:20: They're pleading with a license to say, hey, I have failed in this and I'm pleading from a position that you don't have to bear what
25:29: I what I bore, you know, and and there is a legitimate post -abortion syndrome.
25:34: There is legitimate damage and trauma from this.
25:40: So so I think there's a truth in love aspect of it. There is law of the land, but then there's the grace of the gospel.
25:49: And I think the church has a really hard time sometimes walking that tight line, you know, managing that really well to love people right in their sin and to love people even if they've made a sinful decision.
26:01: So so I think that's that's that's the heart behind this conversation, that it's not just the yeah, let's prosecute all of them.
26:10: Well, I mean, yeah, sure. But there's a lot that goes into that. And then the role of the church in the midst of that is very important.
26:18: So I think there's a fine line between justice for the oppressed justice, equal protection for all parties and trying to punish people with the heavy hand of the state.
26:31: Sure, sure. And there's still and there are two states that currently have have law that are prosecuting those who practice and work the abortion in Nevada and South Carolina both have laws on the books that that do prosecute abortion.
26:48: But there is so there are a work in progress, you know, and they're they're continuing debate to those things.
26:53: But there are laws on their books that that do have legislation in those things.
27:01: And it's and they they identified as criminal criminalizing, self -managing abortion.
27:08: So it's how they the term that they use. And so, you know, it's it's a it's a wide case.
27:18: It's a wide number of things that they're within those. Well, you hit on a lot of things,
27:25: Jonathan, that need to be brought back up in these conversations as part of the education for Christians so that they can they can know what they're hearing when they're listening to a pro -choice advocate who is giving them arguments when they're listening to somebody on the pro -life side, abolition side.
27:46: These things need to be fleshed out to help give people an education and understanding of what's going on.
27:54: One of those things that you were talking about and bringing up was. I just let me.
28:02: But I will go ahead and bring up the other one while I'm thinking about it, trying to flesh all these things out when it comes to laws.
28:13: If if it is murder, we've been dealing with murder for a long time, and I'm just just get your thoughts on this.
28:20: We've been dealing with murder for a long time ever since Cain and Abel and murder.
28:26: Murder has been a law or against the law for a long time.
28:32: And so they're probably and this is probably the extent of the law that I know.
28:39: When you study law, you study cases that have been dealt with by judges previously.
28:50: So it seems like these different scenarios that we're looking for when it comes to abortion, if we're going to see this child from fertilization as a person, they are killed.
29:05: There are probably a lot of cases that have handled some of those different scenarios that we're talking about already and could be applicable to these scenarios when it comes to murdering the person who was in the room, for instance, the coercion one that that's probably been a case that's been settled already.
29:26: Where what do you do in a case of coercion? Oh, why can
29:34: I think of the other thing that I wanted to mention? I'll come back to it.
29:42: I know another one is and I think you and I've talked about it before, is the being retroactive.
29:50: And I've I think that you may have heard people have that conversation.
29:56: I've never heard anybody who is for criminalization of abortion pro being retroactive, going going after those who have had an abortion and catching up, if you will.
30:13: Right. Well, the reason I say that is if we and it is so again,
30:18: I hope no one I'm trying to dig deeper into the issue.
30:24: I want to make it very clear. I believe it is murder. Murder. I believe it is genocide. I believe all the harsh language that is attached to it is accurate to what it is.
30:34: OK, so so if we call it murder, what's the statute of limitation for murder in the
30:41: United States of America? I don't know. Seven years. There is none.
30:47: None. So if you murder someone and later you're proven guilty for that murder, you're liable for it.
30:54: OK, does that make sense? And so that's what I'm trying to say is the conversation then has to be if this is labeled as murder of a human being, which
31:01: I personally believe it is, then then there has to be some kind of statute of limitation attached to that or or or I don't like the term grandfathering in.
31:14: But I'm just saying there has to be an honest conversation about that because you want to go back and prosecute 33 percent of the
31:21: United States of women in the United States of America or one point five million cases of, you know, of murder cases.
31:28: And so and it would be impossible to do justice in that.
31:35: The issue is that the people in the United States of America have been silent for too long in this.
31:41: And as a result, we've got ourselves in a practically impossible mess. The only way to overcome it is
31:46: God does something absolutely miraculous in the midst of it. But that's what I'm trying to say is
31:52: I have heard had those conversations with people that every woman who's ever had an abortion, every doctor who's ever committed an abortion and every person that's complicit in abortion should be locked up, you know.
32:05: OK, well, then is that do I disagree with that statement?
32:12: Probably not in some ways without on a surface level.
32:17: But then you start running down through the scenarios of what was coercion, what was abuse, what was, you know, a mom who who was homeless and what, you know,
32:29: I mean, so on and so forth. I mean, there's so many scenarios of hopelessness that that people are deceived in that they deserve the same penalty as someone that just has an abortion out of convenience, you know, that they got pregnant.
32:44: They don't want to be pregnant. The war interrupts their life. So therefore, let's kill the baby. You know, what about late term abortions?
32:52: Should not late term abortions hold a heavier penalty than than early term abortions?
32:58: It's just a question. Not that I would agree with that, but the brutality of the abortion of a late term abortion, just like like there's murder and then there's gruesome murder.
33:08: So I would say the brutality of a late term abortion is very different than the ending of the life of a of an early conceived child, you know, so so, you know, tearing a baby limb by limb from the womb and throwing it, putting a plunger and piercing the skull of the child and rip them apart.
33:35: Very gruesome, very sadistic and very serial killer like versus, you know, someone otherwise that would feel like a medical procedure, you know.
33:47: So all I'm trying to say is like there's just an endless row of questions that gets below the surface.
33:54: So in the retroactive aspect of it and all the way through and then you deal with the laws of statutes of limitations and things like that, and then then this law, if that does become the case, that this is a statute of limitation, then are you going to go back and say every person that's committed murder up to this point, but yet has not been caught?
34:17: We'll let you off the hook, you know, so so it's not an easy it's not an easy like lay an axe to it.
34:23: And no, that's really good because that makes this conversation real. I mean, it's not just the idealistic conversation, like you're saying, correct.
34:35: Dude, this would go ahead. This would, in some ways, I think, call for a
34:41: I guess a complete overhaul of our justice system. We look into it and honestly to really abolish abortion, as we say.
34:51: Not to discredit or anything, I think we should abolish it, I think it needs to be abolished, but I think in some ways it would redefine the way we look at justice, the way we look at the way our government operates to consistently flush this out with like what you're saying about statute of limitations and consistency, what the government has access to has jurisdiction over.
35:19: You get into some murky water with abortion and flushing this out because there are so many ways you can backdoor this.
35:26: And you get into like the different categories that you've got to look into with terminology and some of the legal jargon and all.
35:35: Here at SC, they're talking about birth control. There's a lot of conversations about that right now because you can abort a child with the over -the -counter medications from CVS.
35:48: And so one of the big questions with continuing this retroactive idea is if we're going to market across the board as murder, then we have to address birth control, then we have to address the medication companies because there are a number of things that can cause the death of a child.
36:12: And again, this gets complicated and those are where we have to, again, have conversations. My generation, we've never known a time where abortion was not socially acceptable.
36:23: We've more or less gone through school without being told that there is a human being in the uterus.
36:29: And so these conversations are brand spanking new to a lot of us that, oh, it's not a clump of cells.
36:36: And now we're talking about birth control. Now we're talking about this. And yes, we got to talk about this.
36:42: And I think what we're looking at with flushing out abortion, it does lead to conversations, does lead to what is justice?
36:51: What is murder? What is how do we how do we think through this? How do we think this through biblically?
36:59: I remember what I was going to say earlier when you were talking about the different examples of things that we need to become more educated on.
37:07: It was the those conversations and accusations that they get thrown at us from the pro -choice side.
37:15: And they'll say, well, are you going to prosecute for for this or that?
37:20: And they will throw in and miscategorize what you were talking about, miscarriages.
37:27: And they'll say that we label them as abortions. No, we know the difference between a miscarriage and an abortion.
37:36: There's there's a difference there in the categories. And here's something to throw out to you,
37:43: Jonathan and Tyler, talking about the statute of limitations and does this help throw a wrench in it or does it help the conversation?
37:53: So murder has always been murder. There's always been the laws on the books for murder.
37:59: But this will be a different scenario to where abortion has been legal.
38:06: And now we're saying at this point, it's not legal. We're making a complete 180.
38:12: So would that be a different scenario with in comparing it to murder and the statute of limitation on murder?
38:20: Because murder has always been wrong. It's always been against the law. But in this scenario here in this time period, it wasn't.
38:27: It was legal. And now it's not. Possibly, but I'm just saying if you you label it as murder, which it is, then the laws in the book stand.
38:41: So you either want to go by those laws or you're going to write a whole new set of laws for this specific instance.
38:47: You can't just take the murder laws and say, OK, this is murder. Now we're going to bring the murder laws into play. And the murder laws apply to this being murder.
38:55: It's either going to be murder laws, which for serious crimes are exceptions.
39:02: But typically, the majority of the states have no limit of statute, no statute of limitation for serious crimes such as murder, manslaughter, so on and so forth, that those charges can be brought.
39:16: The investigation can be started, closed and reopened if there's new evidence entered in, you know, those kind of stuff.
39:24: So so. So it's either you go under that set of laws or you fall.
39:31: You have to write a whole new set of laws that apply specifically just to this.
39:38: And this and I think this is where that that idea of overhauling the the legal system comes in a little bit, because if we impose the statute of limitations in the murder, just murder across the board and not as opposed to just abortion laws, then we have that in different applications.
39:56: Should you be in a position to be charged for vehicular manslaughter if you were at a car accident and somebody died?
40:06: Should you be able to be charged for that 33 years later? Different application of a similar principle,
40:13: I would think. And so that, again, becomes is that how we should look at?
40:19: Is that how we should approach the issue with more with murder, with enforcing the law?
40:28: Does that does that make sense? Yeah. So can we can we state this right now as as a group that we have here?
40:37: At least we we think that abortion is murder. However, however, the complications of getting to where it's prosecutable will be a process.
40:52: Yes. Yes. Very, very difficult process, but a process nonetheless.
40:57: And I think, Robert, that's why I try to hold attention where I'm currently at.
41:02: I'm never satisfied until till abortion ends. But every step in the right direction,
41:10: I'm not an incrementalist where it's like, OK, let's step in now. I'm content. But there should be like a joy.
41:17: There should be a joy when Roe v. Wade was overturned. Even though it doesn't end abortion now, now that puts it in the power of the states.
41:24: And so now there's a battle in 50 states rather than one federal law. Now there's now there's 50 different states.
41:31: It's going to have to come to more. So it didn't simplify it in many ways. It's complicated. You know, it's like taking a bag of marbles and then cutting the bag open and it drops on the floor and it just they just roll everywhere.
41:43: Now somebody's going around clicking up the marbles. So so are we happy that Roe v.
41:49: Wade was was overturned? Absolutely. Absolutely. We're thrilled for that. But that's not the end of it.
41:56: You know, it's just that's really just a new beginning in many ways. And now now we have a responsibility in the state of North Carolina.
42:04: And so in the state of North Carolina, there's a 12 week deal, you know, that with the end abortions up to 12 weeks or you hear about the heartbeat deals or those kind of things of that nature.
42:15: I personally am thankful for those steps in the right direction. Am I satisfied with that?
42:21: No, but but any kind of rescue that we can have, we should celebrate. So so so that's that's what
42:28: I'm trying to say is I don't know what you title a person like that because I don't know that it's an incrementalist.
42:34: But at the same time, because I want to see an end to all of it.
42:41: So but in the culture that we're in, there's it's become so complicated that.
42:49: I don't know that it's going to take time to lay an axe to that root because it's become a like just like Tyler said a second ago, he proved the point of what
42:57: I'm saying. This has become a very deep seated normality in in the modern culture.
43:05: And so so it is a normal thing. This parallels with the homosexuality, you know, this week
43:13: I've watched three television shows and every single one of them has homosexual couples kissing on TV, you know, those kind of things of that nature.
43:23: It has become a normality to our culture. Now, transgenderism, the press for that is to become the normality in our court.
43:32: That is just a normal thing that people do. And and sexual dysphoria and all the things is supposed to be just normal.
43:38: It's but and and they're trying to make it normal now that transgender men can compete in female sports. That's a big debate.
43:44: You know, that that's just supposed to be normal. We're just supposed to accept that as normal.
43:50: And it shows the deception of so many people, how they're so deceived in the power in the world.
43:57: Could we ever think that ending life in the sanctity of life, how could we ever get to the point to think that's just normal?
44:08: Right. But but but Tyler's generation and my children's generation, that's the deception that they're that they're being fed.
44:16: But this is just normal. It's just a normal part of life. It's just it's there was a time before this.
44:21: Yeah, exactly. And there and there was a time. But it's been an erosion for a number of years that that it was abortion has been around for a long time, obviously, long before different forms of abortion, you know, before the
44:37: United States was, I mean, I mean, years ago that they I mean, I was reading Dick last night and he made the comment that something was more horrific than the ugliest abortion.
44:47: And that book was published in 1851. Correct. Correct. Exactly. So that's what
44:53: I'm saying. This is no new issue. But but it went from a a a wicked act, a shameful act, you know, a sinful act, something that, you know, it's unthinkable.
45:11: Only the unthinkable would do this to now. It's celebrated people in the streets carrying banners and wearing
45:17: T -shirts that I'm proud and thankful for my abortion. They're like, I'm I'm proud of this.
45:22: I'm thankful for this. And so so, you know, in the United States of America right now, we're living in a culture of calling what is good, what is good, evil and calling what is evil.
45:34: Like that is very much what's happening in our culture right now. So I don't know that it really answers the question.
45:41: Yes. I mean, I think I think as far as our stance is true of network and a conservative
45:46: Christian, it is murder. This is not God's design. We are 100 percent in favor of the end of all abortions in our lifetime.
45:56: And I mean, and immediately, effectively, immediately. And I think we would all agree with those statements.
46:03: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you brought up another question that wasn't even on my list about where to where do we need to achieve these laws?
46:11: You know, we got Roe versus Wade out of the federal government. But does it need to go back to federal government with with these kind of bills and laws or does it need to stay on the state level?
46:25: And that's just another conversation to have. I'm not thought it all the way through.
46:30: You kind of have to kind of have to think about your where you stand as an
46:36: American citizen and your how you feel about politics and your forms of government and who should.
46:44: Who should rule over you locally, state and federal level, but I mean, constitutionally, this gets a little murky because you don't have an you don't have an abortion clause in any of the amendments.
46:59: You don't have that specifically notated in the Constitution. And so on that front, you would say that it's it's a state thing because the
47:09: Constitution doesn't specifically grant jurisdiction over abortion to the federal government. But if we're talking about murder, if we're talking about the preservation of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, you could make the case that it falls under the
47:25: Fed on that front. And so, again, this is a gray area. There's not really been a precedent for this before.
47:32: Well, see, I was going to bring that up constitutionally. There's an organization that I like to work with called
47:37: Personhood Alliance, and they are seeking to go federally with a personhood bill.
47:45: And if if we federally say from fertilization that it's a person, then they would fall under what you just quoted from the
47:53: Constitution. They have the right for life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. Or property, if you want to go back to Benjamin Franklin.
48:01: I think it's what he said. I like it wasn't John Locke. There you go. Life, liberty and property property.
48:08: That's right. So, yeah, that's another good conversation to have. We I think we touched on most of what
48:14: Big John want us to talk about. The other thing the big John brought up last week on that same topic is about and this brings in the gospel.
48:25: And this also was a difficult conversation. But those who those who responded to the gospel.
48:32: Or maybe they've been they were saved already, but they've been forgiven. They've repented and they've been forgiven.
48:39: They received the gospel. They received grace from the Lord. And what about those in this scenario of criminalization?
48:49: My like you said, Jonathan, knee jerk, my first thoughts on that is there's consequences.
48:58: You can be forgiven, receive grace from the Lord, but you still have to face consequences, earthly consequences.
49:07: Yeah, I would agree 100 percent. I mean, there's. I can murder somebody and be sorry for it, but yeah,
49:13: I mean, I would even say. It doesn't say it in Scripture, but there's there's a level of evidence that when
49:21: Cain was being punished by the
49:26: Lord, there was a level of regret that the relationship with God was not broken because then even as he drove
49:34: Cain out, he put a mark on him and said, this is still my son. But he didn't let him stay in the garden.
49:41: Yeah, he drove him out. So so there is I don't I don't that's what
49:48: I was trying to get at a while ago. There is this this is another hot word, you know, but there is a separation of church and state.
49:56: There is a difference in and the the church discipline system is separate from the legal system.
50:06: They even though many times they do parallel, other times they don't.
50:12: And and we do abide by the laws of the land and we honor those that God has sovereignly put in place to do what is right to punish those that are evil and to do good to those that do good and honor those that do good.
50:30: But it's a murky the waters, though, if someone is, let's say, abortion is is criminalized and someone comes to you and is repenting of saying,
50:42: I've had an abortion, I'm here to repent, I'm here to seek forgiveness. What's the responsibility of the church to turn them in?
50:51: Well, just to change genres on that, what would be the church's response if it was something related to abuse?
50:58: Is you have mandatory report in a lot of states. South Carolina's mandatory report.
51:04: I'm not sure if NC is. It is. It is. And so what would be the response there?
51:11: Sure. Yeah. And so it does get complicated. It does. And that's what
51:17: I'm saying. I mean, so a lot of people get really torqued about separation of church and state because it's been supposedly used to to keep the church out of function.
51:30: That that was never the intent of that term. The term was that the state is not going to dictate to me how
51:36: I worship. And I have every right as a Christian to be involved in the state as a
51:42: Christian to promote even Christian ideas. So it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to promote Christian ideas. It simply means that the state can't tell me that I can't.
51:51: And I do get it in the schools. I'm not opposed to everybody's like, well, we ended prayer in school.
51:58: Well, no, we didn't. What we what we said is that there's going to be a common ground that any prayer can be led, student led.
52:06: But a teacher that's a Muslim teacher is not allowed to get up and read and for students to pray five times a day facing
52:15: Mecca. I'm thankful for that law. I mean, does that make sense? That's not a bad law. What it means, though, is
52:22: Christians, volunteers and students then have a responsibility to be the advocates of Christianity in the school.
52:30: And those that are state workers can't force their beliefs or point of view on somebody else in there.
52:36: And there are definitely points of views that that my children go to public school, that that some teachers have that I don't want them teaching my kids, you know.
52:44: So so I'm thankful for that restriction, if you will. So so so that's what
52:51: I'm trying to say. There's a separation there that's necessary. And when it when it comes to this issue specifically, how the church handles it and how
53:01: Paul handles it, you know, those are two separate issues. So so, yes, you can be absolutely forgiven, but it doesn't dismiss the consequences.
53:11: And and what what what I have seen. When someone is born again, then there is a conviction in their life to make it right legally.
53:23: And so so the law then becomes much more gracious in of itself for people who turn themselves in and throw themselves at the mercy of the court.
53:32: Traditionally, and and say, I know this was wrong. I've been convicted that this is wrong.
53:38: I'm here to ask for mercy and realize, you know, that this is wrong and I'm here to take my medicine.
53:45: And a lot of times that's a whole nother realm of ministry and the sovereignty of God, of of how things happen.
53:52: And I've seen that happen before. I've seen people themselves in there were still consequences, but there was but they were much more graceful than than having to be forced or run down or investigated to death and those kind of things.
54:12: I mean, there's a there's a there's a kinder way that honors Christ in the midst of all that, too.
54:19: Right. And to a degree and all that we've said, all that you guys have said so far is
54:26: I'm not disagreeing with and I'm saying it's it's true that there's complications, there's a lot of work to be done.
54:33: But to throw this in the conversation as well, there becomes a different perspective when familiarity changes.
54:44: And relationships with the individual, the victim changes.
54:51: So if if my son, you know, your children, one of your family members is murdered, there's a there's a difference in how we react and feel.
55:10: Compared to somebody that we we see another murder go across the ticker on the news screen, there's a there's a different reaction, different feel from us because of the closeness, the familiarity of the person.
55:26: And so I think. The complications or the reality, realities of these these issues will hit home when we begin to see these babies for who they are.
55:42: Image bearers of God, creations of God knit together in their mother's womb by God and you know, just just changing our perspective and our outlook on who these individuals are.
55:58: It doesn't make things less complicated in those areas that we've been talking about, but it makes it a whole lot less complicated in getting to the point of, you know, talking about.
56:09: This is a person created by God and they. Which leads to the last tenant of abolitionism, they deserve equal justice under the law.
56:23: And I think that we've hit as we've had this conversation tonight, we've we've touched on equal justice under the law for the most part because we've talked about personhood.
56:35: We talk about being being a person from fertilization and then receiving what a person should receive those rights that a person, every other person receives.
56:49: Do you have any other thoughts on equal justice under the law for those four individuals?
56:56: From well, to read a comment we got on Rumble from Chugs once again at the founding of this country, we understood that men were created and rights, parentheses and protections came from God, not government.
57:12: At some arbitrary point, it became accepted that creation meant birth. I think that ties in quite nicely to the equal protection question that we're talking about rights and we're talking about some of this stuff.
57:27: The Constitution doesn't give us rights. The government doesn't give us rights. God gave us
57:34: God set this up that man has value and human beings have value. He established that in the garden, in the image of God, he created them.
57:42: He reestablishes that after the flood, when he makes it clear to Noah that the taking of human life has consequences, whether it is a human being or the animals that do it.
57:56: The death of people has weight, has a unique weight to it. This gets fleshed out throughout the
58:02: Old Testament, even going through the Torah, going through the prophets, going through a lot of this.
58:08: At the end of the day, people matter to God, regardless of stature, regardless of station, of nationality, of circumstance.
58:19: People matter to God. And we as church see that because people matter to God, people matter to us.
58:28: And because people matter to us, we are willing to have hard conversations, even about something like abortion.
58:34: That's right. Let me let me get a little nerdy for you guys real quick. So so in 2004, there's a public call 108 -212 in the
58:45: United States that recognizes an embryo or fetus in the utero as a legal victim.
58:53: If they are injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence, this defines child in utero.
59:02: It's defined in the utero as a member of the species of homo sapiens at any stage of development that is carried in the womb.
59:13: And so I just I just reading straight from the law book, you know, we already have laws on the books that define it as a baby as a child in the uterus.
59:31: So that's how hypocritical this issue has come. It is is that we won't even abide by the laws of our own land that's already there.
59:41: And and going back to your murder content statement, Robert, there are already laws that do protect.
59:51: It's it's in the aspect of abortion that we have made the exception. So if I go heinously murder a woman and kill a child, they're going to they're going to have me as a double homicide.
01:00:08: So so now, but if it's convenient for the mother to end her own child's life.
01:00:14: Then now it's no longer a homicide for the doctor and the mother to forfeit that now it's a choice.
01:00:22: So so that's that's where it becomes just a crazy situation. And here's here's this whole issue is summed up in judges in the
01:00:33: Book of Kings when there was no king of Israel and the people just did what was right in their own eyes.
01:00:40: So so we live in a culture that just says, the law doesn't apply to me if I don't think it does.
01:00:49: So, so that's how weird this conversation really is. It's how strange this debate even becomes.
01:00:57: And how how does out in left field it's really we have to debate it because of the how ludicrous people's mindsets are that I create my own law because I'm I have jurisdiction over my own body.
01:01:16: I have jurisdiction over my own culture. I'll do whatever I won't do where I want to when I want to and you better like it.
01:01:22: And if you disagree with me, then tough. But we are raising up a generation that is anti -law, anti -system, anti -control, anti those kind of things.
01:01:37: And as we have that, then then we we raise up an anarchist culture, which is what we have.
01:01:45: And and so which runs very well with very parallel with an antichrist culture.
01:01:53: You know, and I'm not talking eschatology here. I'm talking about the spirit of antichrist, the spirit being against the things of Christ.
01:02:04: And so, you know, just just know that that like there are very clear laws that we already have that have equal protection.
01:02:18: So in a sense, we are being governed by a foolish kings. That's right. I was
01:02:24: I was reading Ecclesiastes this week and I found this bit in chapter four to be quite on point.
01:02:31: And honestly, it ties into where we're going. It says better a poor and wise youth than an old and foolish king who will be admonished no more for he comes out of prison to be king, although he was born poor in his kingdom.
01:02:45: I saw all the living who walk under the sun. They were with the second youth who stands in his place.
01:02:52: There was no end of all the people over whom he has made king. Yet those who come after him will not rejoice in him.
01:02:59: Surely this also is vanity and grasping for the wind. The that's a of being governed by unwise kings who are beyond reproach, who are beyond admonition, who came into that kingship being poor, being one of us.
01:03:27: And yet they don't act like it. They don't act like they are one of us.
01:03:32: They are off doing their own thing despite the fact that they live under the same sun that we do.
01:03:38: And there is no end to who will come after him. King after king after king.
01:03:45: Because when when Israel had no king, when they conducted themselves as if they had no king, this is what they've created was vanity and grasping of the wind.
01:03:58: And in some ways our kings have failed us by governing under the sun as if there's nothing but what's under the sun.
01:04:11: Well, what you brought up, Jonathan, about the laws that are existing on books brings up the strategy question.
01:04:21: Is it necessary to go? Do we do we need an abolition bill?
01:04:27: Do we need a personhood bill? Do we need to fight to for us to be faithful to the laws that we already have?
01:04:35: You know, what's the what's the strategy? Which direction do we go? I mean, that's another good conversation to have the strategy question.
01:04:46: I think it's going to require either rewording these current laws to include the term abortion, or there's gonna have to be a whole new set of laws.
01:04:59: Because again, they're not going to consider what the doctor does to the mother to cause a loss, they're not going to consider that assault.
01:05:08: They're going to have considered a legal abortion by the mother's choice. So there's these really fine lines and loopholes.
01:05:18: But but you can have you'll have numerous, numerous mothers who were held down.
01:05:27: Even at the moment of deciding that they don't want to do this. They want to back out and are restrained.
01:05:34: And the abortion continues. How is that not considered assault?
01:05:42: How is that not considered something against her? Oh, well, she saved, she signed a waiver form. So now we get into legalities.
01:05:50: And I'm just telling you, you know, we were fighting against an enemy who's an expert debater, who's an expert in the law, who's an expert in the loopholes, and the laws of the land, and it's a spiritual enemy, you know, so.
01:06:07: So again, guys, you know, I'm not hopeless in it at all. But I'm not naive to think.
01:06:15: Again, Christians, a lot of that you said it well, a while ago, Robert, Christians and abolitionists and pro -lifers and so many we we we get into idealism.
01:06:25: And then when it comes down to the realities of the world that we live in, idealism has to go out the window.
01:06:32: Now there's like a roll up your sleeves and let's do something about this. Let's start writing letters. Let's start making phone calls.
01:06:37: Let's get. And I think that is the major disconnect with Christianity today is
01:06:42: Christians love the ideal of pro -life or abolition. They love in their sanctuaries and their place of safety to to live in ideal cultures.
01:06:55: But they're very rarely willing to roll up their sleeves and do anything about it. And so so that's that's where we've asked this before.
01:07:03: Does a Christian have a role in politics? I think every man has to decide. I think that is one of those things that every man can choose for himself or what role.
01:07:12: But at minimal, we do have a role to be a voice and to speak to legislators and speak to representatives and write letters and those kinds of stuff.
01:07:24: Should we run for office? Like I said, that up to every man of his own conscience and conviction to decide if he's capable of doing that without compromising.
01:07:35: I don't but I'm I'm more jaded. I'm not sure a man's capable of winning without compromising.
01:07:41: So in our culture. So let's flesh out that conversation just a little bit because I want to end on those on that.
01:07:48: But these two questions and you let us right into it. So here's the two questions. I want to give you both of them and we can flesh it out just a little bit as we end.
01:07:58: Defeating the excuse. This is political. Churches and 501c3 organizations can't get involved.
01:08:06: We want to defeat that excuse for not getting involved. And then the second one is how can we convince pastors and churches and church members to get on board to move from apathy to action?
01:08:27: I got really strong words. Okay. So maybe I should go first. I'll give the hard medicine first and then you guys can like add some staff to it.
01:08:39: I'll speak really plainly looking straight into the camera. Any pastor that does not vocally and physically and emotionally and spiritually get involved with this and speak plainly about it and do something about it.
01:08:53: And let me define the difference. This is so much more than a sanctity of life Sunday where you stand up on a
01:08:58: Sunday morning and bang a pulpit and say you're against abortion. But not one single time have you ever done anything that helped bring it into abortion.
01:09:07: You're a coward and you have no business calling yourself a man of God. You have no business calling yourself a proponent for the things of Christ because destruction is at your doorfront and you are cowardly hiding behind the walls of your sanctuary.
01:09:22: So get up and get out and do something about it. And that's the good news. We can repent. And the reason
01:09:28: I'm so plain about this is because I was that guy. I've been in ministry for 22 years and never realized that I wasn't really pro -life or pro -abolition or I wasn't anything other than just a mouthpiece once a year that preached on Sunday morning.
01:09:43: And praise God for his grace that he brought people into my life that discipled me and being an advocate.
01:09:50: So there's some really easy ways to do that that are not necessarily controversial, that are not political, that are not, you know, there are churches that do that and they're called to do that.
01:10:02: But maybe your church is not wanting to do that. What can you do? You can be a house of refuge. You can reach out to abortion minded moms.
01:10:08: You can be at the abortion clinics and pray with people and plead with people to turn away.
01:10:14: Let them know there's a better choice than the one they're fixing to make, which is to run to Christ, run to his church. And so so first of all, it's a pleading with repentance and a confrontation of men of God who
01:10:27: I believe do love Christ, who are saved, but have been sold a bill of lies that says, hey,
01:10:32: I don't have to get involved. Yes, you do. You have a responsibility as the shepherds of the flock to do something about this, not just talk about it, but do it, not just be not just not just let words, but but walk the walk, man.
01:10:49: Don't be just hearers of the word, but be doers of it. Do something about this. So so that's the plainness of it,
01:10:55: I think. Number one, confrontation of churches and pastors that refuse to be involved, a review of refuse to be involved, involved in even a church discipline among other pastors, pastor to pastor for those that refuse to be involved.
01:11:13: And then and then plead with repentance. And then when it when one repents, rejoice with them, rejoice and disciple them and walk with them what it looks like and to find their calling in the midst of this, in the midst of this battle.
01:11:26: There are all kinds of personalities and gift sets and things. So I'm not saying everybody has to look just like X, Y and Z, whatever you think pro -life abolition movement looks like.
01:11:40: Each one of you men of God will have a gifting and an ability, some of you are excellent writers.
01:11:46: So you should be writing on our behalf. Others, you are great spokespersons.
01:11:51: You should be speaking and preaching and pleading. Others, you are great counselors. So you should be counseling with abortion minded families and and running the interference there versus or even post -abortion families and helping those people and discipling them.
01:12:09: So each gift set plays a role in this issue. And so so my plea would be to repent and stop being cowards, stop being afraid of the system, stop being afraid that the government's going to come in and take your 501c3.
01:12:23: And a matter of fact, in the state of North Carolina specifically, and I think it's probably most all states now, 501c3 don't mean nothing anyways, because in order to get any kind of tax benefit in the state of North Carolina, you have to at least give $12 ,000 per person.
01:12:39: And so like my wife and I would have to give $24 ,000 a year in order to get a tax write off.
01:12:45: So we don't give for basis of a tax write off anyway. So then what's a 501c3 for anything? Nothing.
01:12:50: It doesn't mean nothing. The second thing is this. You don't have to be incorporated in order to have a 501c3 because in the state of North Carolina, if you are considered a church, you are automatically considered a nonprofit organization.
01:13:04: So you still can maintain a nonprofit status if that is important to you. But this is this is a place where we're going to have to make a decision, choose this day whom you will serve.
01:13:14: And we talked about this a while back here in truth and love, that what what happens when the laws of the land contradict the laws of God, who's going to be your master, because no man can serve two masters.
01:13:24: And this is exactly one of those issues to where the world is saying this should be the law. But what is
01:13:30: God's law saying, and the church stand up for that. So so that's, I hope that's plain enough and simple enough.
01:13:38: But there's absolutely no excuse for any Christian. Now, I'll broaden the spectrum to not just pastors, but any
01:13:46: Christian. It is unthinkable that any Christian would be aligning themselves with a pro abortion movement.
01:13:53: It's unthinkable and unacceptable. And I do realize that there's deception and there should be kindness and gentleness and teaching and debating this.
01:14:02: But pastors, you should not be allowing into membership of church people that are pro abortion minded, you wouldn't allow a drunk to be a member of a church or a practicing sinner, if you will, whatever the whatever you want to put down as the list of center that you're not going to allow them to be functioning in the church normally without church discipline.
01:14:22: So why would you allow someone who's pro abortion and the pro the ending of life?
01:14:28: Why would you be like, Oh, well, this is a separate issue. It's not, it's not a separate issue. And will you lose church members?
01:14:34: Absolutely. And you should for people that believe in that way. So but who knows, you confront them, by the grace of God, they may repent and be rescued.
01:14:45: So so men of God be men of God. And we need to rise up with the voice of the prophet saying this that the
01:14:53: Lord and proclaiming the good news of God and the year of repentance and the truth of God's word and the image of God that is in every person.
01:15:02: So I'll be quiet because I could sit up. That was good.
01:15:07: And one of the things that helped make it clear for me is understanding what bills and laws are. bills and laws are just us legislating morality.
01:15:17: Every single every single one of them. What and what's morality? You know, let's make it plain, simple and clear what's morality, right and wrong.
01:15:24: That's right. We we have we have a king who not only has spoken on morality, ie right and wrong, but he's the author of it.
01:15:37: So Jesus does have something to say about what our legislation should be.
01:15:43: And we should we should speak that we should live that just like Jonathan was talking about.
01:15:48: And I totally agree with what he was saying. Tyler, any any thoughts on that the 501 c three status?
01:15:57: How can we convince people to move from apathy to action? Honestly, I think
01:16:05: Jonathan hit it out of the park there. I agree. So now where's the people that's willing to go and disciple or confront or plead with those that aren't?
01:16:20: That makes sense. I mean, and and then for the guys that proudly and boldly stay in their shells.
01:16:29: Then what do we do with them? You know, I mean, I think there's there. So now we're getting into church jurisdiction.
01:16:37: Okay, and the church and I know there's the autonomy of the local church. So yeah, you can have autonomy as the local church to decide to do what you want to.
01:16:45: But that doesn't mean that the rest of the churches have to have fellowship, continuing sin as a local church.
01:16:51: There should be an identifying and a marking and a clarity of those who choose apathy and political apathy or apathy with sin.
01:17:01: There should be a marking of those things. And those churches will probably grow because that's the culture. There's this culture of this hyper tolerance, and they'll grow and people will heap themselves to those situations in itching ears.
01:17:14: But it's not grace pastor, you're leading your people to death. You're leading your people to to be deceived, and you're not a good shepherd.
01:17:22: And so I just I just hope that we will take a stronger stance, even as the body of Christ.
01:17:30: So Robert, I would say systematically, for me personally, before I write letters to legislators,
01:17:37: I'll be writing letters to local pastors. You know, that makes sense. That's, that's my house.
01:17:43: That's my responsibility. That's my family. And, and asking to have lunch with pastors.
01:17:49: And, and, and, again, I know I came up very clearly and very boldly. And that was the intent.
01:17:56: I'm not going to go at a guy right at his face right off the bat. But, but, you know, we're asking very logical, reasonable questions.
01:18:05: But there's a lot of guys that there's no way to say it.
01:18:10: They're hirelings. They're, they're hirelings. They're not shepherds. These are exactly the guys that that Jeremiah talked about, that that that God spoke to Jeremiah about, that they're abusers of the flock and they're hirelings and, and they don't do the things of God.
01:18:25: And then God says, but there is a day that I will give you good shepherds. And I thank God that there are good shepherds out there that are fighting this fight and their flock is behind them.
01:18:35: And they are leading a beautiful charge that is making an impact on people's lives and in this issue.
01:18:42: So as much, as much as there is negative, there's, there's tremendous amount of positive news that we're getting to see because Tyler, your generation,
01:18:51: I'm very thankful for you guys, man. Your, your generation in many ways is leading a tremendous charge of abolition and pro -life.
01:18:59: And, you know, it is, they, they don't want these things voted on because if they get voted on, it goes, it goes against pro -choice.
01:19:10: It goes pro -life, you know, it requires vetoes just like our governor, you know, required vetoes.
01:19:15: And so I'm thankful for you guys, Tyler. So keep leading the charge, brother.
01:19:21: You're, you're right. There's people out there that are working, working hard, working diligently, and we praise God for those people.
01:19:27: And, and you did a good thing by encouraging everyone. You, you painted with a kind of a broad brush there, but it was, it was very encouraging when you were speaking to the body as a whole, reminding us that we have different roles.
01:19:44: And my role is, is not their role or her role. But whatever my role is, you're encouraging us to do it.
01:19:53: That may just look differently than somebody else's. And, you know, what's sad to me, one of the things that you brought up is the, is the marking.
01:20:02: And I, you know, I agree with that. But what's so sad is that we won't see a collective marking out of, because we're still so concerned with nickels and noses in our churches and our associations and our conventions.
01:20:18: We're going to lose numbers. We're going to lose power. We're going to lose money. So we won't mark out like the
01:20:25: Bible calls us to do. And so, Jonathan, I know you love to do it.
01:20:31: Do you want to share the gospel tonight? Do you want to pray? Love to, man.
01:20:39: This issue we're talking about tonight, this issue of abortion, it started several thousand years ago.
01:20:48: Again, that creates another conversation and a debate. I personally believe somewhere along the lines of around 6 ,000 years ago, that's where death entered into the world.
01:21:01: Adam and Eve were there and they failed. They failed. They disobeyed God. And ever since then, the erosion of humanity's mindset toward God and toward the loving of things of God versus loving the things of the world, it's been a snowball effect.
01:21:21: And we've seen sin be prolific to the world. And if we're real honest about the level of sin in the world, we would have to ask ourselves, what hope is there?
01:21:34: I mean, even with this issue of abortion, when I think about laws and legislation and the level of wickedness in the world, like what hope is there?
01:21:48: It's very easy to become overwhelmed. Well, in Romans chapter seven, it's one of my favorite chapters in the
01:21:55: Bible, Romans seven or Romans eight. You know, Paul himself finds himself in that situation and he finds himself, what a wicked man that I am.
01:22:07: And let me speak very clearly, as boldly as I was speaking to those that are calling themselves
01:22:14: Christians and yet not advocates for the things of God or the things of life. If someone hears this,
01:22:21: I hope you hear me say that if you're not a Christian, God loves you very, very much.
01:22:28: And if you find yourself saying, hey, I've had an abortion, what hope is there for me?
01:22:35: Well, there's one that we call Christ, the son of the living God, the apostle Paul, who was a murderer, a torturer of the church.
01:22:44: He labeled himself, I'm not giving him this label. He labeled himself in his own testimony, a chief among all sinners.
01:22:52: He cries out, who would save me from this wretched man that I am? And I tell you tonight, thanks be to God, Jesus Christ, because God and his infinite love for wicked people said,
01:23:06: I'm not going to just leave them in their sin. I'm going to do something about this. And I'm going to send my son and my son will pay the penalty for sin so that every abortionists, even though they've killed 100 ,000 babies, if they believe on Christ, they can be saved.
01:23:25: Every mother that's ever had an abortion and you ended the life of your child, we love you very much.
01:23:30: It's not the unpardonable sin. I'm sure you're grieved about it. Some of you will hear this and be grieved to heart with this.
01:23:37: What hope is there for you? Jesus Christ is the hope for you. And what does it look like to believe on him?
01:23:44: It's to really trust this fact that God so much loved you, that he sent his son to pay for that sin.
01:23:50: And what Christ did is enough to pay for all of it. You don't have to carry it anymore.
01:23:56: Christ says, give it to me. Give me your sin. I nailed your sin to the cross and blotted it out of the way. Believe on me and be saved.
01:24:04: And so I hope tonight that that is exactly what you would do, that in a quiet moment tonight, you would find time to get before God and tell
01:24:14: God you're sorry, and just cry out for a savior. And the Bible says, all that call upon him, whoever calls upon him, he will never turn them away.
01:24:24: So I'm very confident tonight, it could be the night of salvation for you if you hear this tonight, to call upon the
01:24:29: Lord, ask him to save you. You don't have to know all the theological answers. That's called discipleship. We still don't have all the theological answers.
01:24:37: Sometimes it's their best guess. But at the end of the day, it just starts right there.
01:24:43: It's the beginning point. It's call upon Jesus. Tell him you need a savior. He loves you, and he won't turn you away.
01:24:51: And then connect with us. Let us know if you do believe on Jesus tonight or find a good local pastor that you know you can trust and begin to have that conversation with them.
01:25:02: Find hope and forgiveness in Christ and know that the Word of God is sufficient to teach you everything that you need to know to follow
01:25:10: Christ for the rest of your life. And so we love you very much. We hope you receive this with joy that Christ died for our sin, rose from the dead conquering our sin so that we can have life and life abundantly.
01:25:23: So God bless you. Father God, teach us to abhor what is evil and to hold fast to what is good.
01:25:40: Lord, would you grant us the privilege of your worldview that we would love what you love and hate what you hate, that we would see things as you do with all of his heartache, with all of its grievousness, with all of its sorrow, and with all of his joy and all of its beauty, that we would see things as you do.
01:26:09: See the good things as you do. See the bad things as you do. Lord, teach us to see things like ourselves less and continue to mold us in the image of your beloved
01:26:24: Son. In our thoughts, in our actions, in the very content of our hearts, make us
01:26:35: Christians. Amen. Amen. Thank you guys so much.
01:26:41: And thank you all for joining us tonight on the Laborers podcast. We really appreciate it. And we hope to see you next time.
01:26:49: Thank you for joining the Laborers podcast. Remember, Jesus is
01:26:54: King, live in the victory of Christ, speak with the authority of Christ, and go share the gospel of Christ.