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Join Dan and Rob as they continue their series on Cessationism.
Welcome to the truth and love podcast. In this episode we are once again doing a defense of cessationism part 3. Welcome once again to the truth and love podcast. We are still recording and we hope you enjoy these shorter segments that are recorded.
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Dan how you doing. Good. How are you doing. I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I every time I update our intro video or something I notice something else I need to update. Since I took that picture and included it in the video my beard has gotten longer so it's not as accurate.
Your beard has become more.
Presbyterian. Well even if you have not your beard has come on. We've got Charles.
Spurgeon we had an awesome beard you've got. Well let's dive into our our topic of a defensive cessationism. We are first looking at first Corinthians that seems to be the go-to passage for the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Have they ceased. Have they continued. What do we mean by continuationist. What we mean by cessationist. What what. Our goal is that truth and love podcast is to look at God's Word.
We want to hear what God has to say and live according to that teach according to that. That's that's our goal. And a lot of times in this conversation we build our defense on experience. Well well how can you deny this.
How can you deny that. Well that's that's fine. And sometimes we I try to avoid using experience as a defense. I want to go.
Forward. Do it's not a defense. No I'll tell you why. Yeah it's not a defense. Because there are hundreds thousands of Mormons who have said that they had an experience where they prayed did the Holy Spirit to tell them the Book of Mormon was true.
And they got a confirmation of that. Yeah. Also story of from. From the Mormons they go to the temple to be baptized for for the dead. They will see spiritual beings around the top of the temple as they're being baptized.
Like I heard one story where somebody's being being baptized saw one one spirit up there that looked very sad. So they said well what's your name to the spirit. Was talking back to the spirit and the spirit told them their name.
The guy went over there on the list and found the list where they'd skipped over somebody's name and got them baptized for the dead. Wow. I mean experience just means something that you've experienced.
It doesn't tell you if it's right or wrong or somebody's lying to you. All it does is say that you have experienced something. You have to take every thought and experience.
Captive to the Word of God right. Hey they may they may be seen spirits. I'm not saying they're not. It may just it may not be angelic Holy Spirit. Yeah but.
I don't know I'm not saying either way well I will. False gospel their God is not the God of the Bible right. For those are not true angelic spirits if they are spirits who are lying. I mean if the stories are true right which I have no reason to doubt that the stories are true those are lying spirits that are trying to seal them in their damnation right and their deceit deceived state.
Yeah and and using them as another example a lot of people in the continuationist movement they want to use feelings. You you don't understand this because you don't know how to flow in the spirit you don't know what it feels like.
Feelings are so encouraged is so much so that that's what you look for as evidence. And going back to the Mormons they look for a feeling of.
Burning in the bosom for confirmation. Well even I forget somewhere Paul said that there was a people who were who were led by their bellies. The belly in ancient thought was the seat of the emotion and while the heart was the seat of the mind so those who were led by their bellies were were those who couldn't control their appetites.
So your feelings your feelings are not to be a source of truth. Your feelings are to be taken captive to the Word of God. Same thing with every thought. Yeah. Which is why the heart the thinking organ is deceitful.
Your brains deceitful. You can't logic and reason your way through.
Everything you have to go back to the Word of God right as well. And so we should treat feelings just like our thoughts. You know we think about the scripture be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
So we don't deny that we have thoughts in our mind. You can't deny that you have thoughts. I have thoughts. We can't deny that sometimes right. So yep sometimes they're right. Sometimes they're not. But what we're saying is from scripture.
It says to to renew your transform be transformed by the renewing of your mind using using scripture. And so the same thing is true for our feelings. We're not denying feelings. God created us all that way.
We all have feelings. They just should be informed by the Word of God and not the other way around. We don't inform the Word of God based on our feelings right. So with that being said I think we we went through the first part we wanted to really focus on 12 13 and 14 but the first episode we we kind of did it an overview of several verses at the beginning of 1st Corinthians to give us a foundation to let us know where Paul's mind was what his thinking was so that we kind of understood where he was once.
We get to 12 13 and 14 right. So we didn't drop into the middle of a book.
With no context. That's right. Exactly. And and it as we go through 12 go through 13 go through 14 we want to do this. I wish we could do it I wish it could be done in a timely manner but done all together.
But unfortunately we can't do that because you know there's so much there because I believe. Like I was telling you earlier Paul has a flow in his thinking he has a point he has a direction and as you read through it as you study through it you see where he's taking you once you get there instead of picking and choosing and then taking a verse out of context.
Yep. So then once you give us a quick summary of what we.
Went over last time in the beginning of chapter 12 sure beginning of chapter 12. Paul wants them to not be ignorant of the spiritual gifts. He wants them to understand what it is that they're that they're doing.
He doesn't want them to be deceived. He's trying to get them to grow up a bit to start understanding things the way that it really is. He gives them one test one big test. They basically start here. You know if there's a first question it's this.
Nobody my goodness computer nobody can can say that Jesus is a curse. Who has or anybody who says that Jesus is a curse they are not speaking from the Spirit of God and that's very simple. Also the one who says that Jesus is Lord can't do so unless they're speaking from the Holy Spirit.
Now it's not just saying those individual phrases but is what their message saying that you know Jesus was accursed is the thrust of their message that Jesus is Lord. The ones who speak that Jesus is accursed those guys are not from the Spirit.
The ones who say that Jesus is Lord they are speaking from the Spirit. It is that same Spirit who then gives us gifts. It says in verse 4 a variety of gifts varieties of gifts but the same Spirit their varieties of ministries the same Lord their varieties of workings but the same God who works everything in everyone.
So the the gifts of the Spirit then are given out to people in order to in order to prove who God is because God has given them out for a purpose. So it says where we at verse 7. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit.
That would be a gift the ministry or some work to be done a manifestation of the Spirit for what is profitable or what is beneficial to the church. So that is the purpose of the gifts to build up the church in some way form or fashion whether it's evangelistic or encouraging encouragement or helping people throughout their daily lives.
The diaconate would be part of that where they help the orphans and the widows they would be ones who doing varieties of workings you have the gift of service and you're able to be a deacon. Go ahead and do it because that is a gift from God that you have those abilities to take care of the church in that way.
And then after listing all these gifts it comes to verse 11 where he says. But one in the same spirit works all these things. So it doesn't matter if you're a pastor a lay person if you have the gift of healing tongues prophecy administration whether you're a deacon or a bum it doesn't matter.
Each one is gifted by the same spirit. Same spirit works all those things. This is important distributing to each one individually. So each person who has their gift has it because it says just as he wills just as the Spirit wills.
So you're not going to have the gift of tongues if God doesn't want you to. You're not going to have the gift of prophecy if God doesn't want you to if God wants you to have the gift of speaking so you can preach you're going to get that gift.
If he wants you to be a deacon he will give you the gifts necessary to be a deacon. All of these gifts come from one God. They're there to benefit the church. And they're there at the direction of the Holy Spirit.
Yeah. And that's kind of where we landed because we were about to start in verse.
12 well we also see you do what. Well I was just gonna say we see that same thought supported in Hebrews chapter 2 verse 4 God also testifying with them both about signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit.
According according to his will. Yep yep. He was testifying for a purpose. Yeah for.
A person right. And this is where we kind of talked about. We would help define where we're coming from as a cessationist versus a continuationist. So.
You want to give it a definition or do you maybe. Okay. I guess people differ on what they mean by cessationist and continuationist. Really what we're contending when we say that we're a cessationist is that the the normative of the gifts has ceased.
In other words there was probably no mouth that won't work. There was a specific I know right there was a specific purpose to each one of these gifts. Since the Holy Spirit is in control of the gifts he gives them out as he sees fit.
The cessationist believes that the purpose of the gifts of the Spirit at least some of them mainly healing in tongues even prophecy depending on how you you define it that those things served a specific purpose.
That that specific purpose was to authenticate the message of the gospel to say that Jesus is the Christ. To say that the old covenant is passing away and the new covenant is enforced. That we're not no longer under type and shadow but under the reality of Jesus Christ.
And so since those gifts had the purpose for proving and giving witness to the gospel there during that time of transition that once that time of transition is over and we would say it's over at the time when when Israel was judged in 70 AD that once that that time period was over that you would see those gifts given out by the Spirit less that they would have ceased to be normative in the church.
So that what you would if and Rob put a put it visually for us while we're know before we got on air. If you were to see a a timeline graph and you were going across throughout history you would see sprinklings of manifestations of the Spirit no healings and Elijah calling down fire you would see different things happening.
You know the judges Samson pulling down stuff on top of him according to his purpose according to the purpose and then all of a sudden right around the cross you would see a spike that would then come back down and kind of level off as you go.
No it doesn't mean that we believe that the Spirit ceased to work all together. It doesn't mean that we don't think that you could see healing or tongues today it just means that the the purpose for which those things were gifted to the church that that purpose was more concentrated at the time of the cross.
So it's not going to be normative for us to see those things in the in the quantities that you saw around the time of Pentecost around the time of the the transition between the old and new covenants so that is what I would call.
Cessation ism and I guess we bear the burden to prove that is our definition or why we believe that's the biblical definition of cessation ism this in.
Cessation. Ism did. I guess it changed a lot. The definitions of the people give to a change over time. A lot of that I think has to do with some knee-jerk reactions to some some things that happen. You think of different revivals that took place in the the early 1900s and even later on.
Some people reacted really hard to those things even to the point where they said that the spirits not working today. Come on guys let's get with the program. But and I think we've we've changed the way that we define it as sort of it's sort of reactionary.
Yeah and it would it would be helpful you know if we could reclaim these terms through biblical definitions and following the following the text making sure that we're not using bad argumentation just because it the argumentation had been used for a long time or whatever.
Right. And what we.
Viewed to be a long time. Yeah yeah. And the definition that you gave seems to me to make the most sense if you when you look at biblical evidence not specific verses that say specifically this. But you look at the biblical evidence of what actually happened.
Because and this we talked about this earlier. I always seem to go back to the verse in the gospel where the Jesus commanded the disciples to go out and they healed every sickness and disease. And then Paul in his ministry.
You have him at one point. Well somebody somebody touched Jesus the hem of his his garment. They were healed. Was it Peter that somebody walked in. There's his shadow was healed. You have Peter. You have Paul who.
They would send out hankies that was that was blessed or touched by him. And they would they would be healed. But then later on Paul would have prayer requests. I have this person who is near death or or is sick.
Pray for them. Timothy drink wine for your stomach. Instead of you know him sending him a hanky. He says drink some wine. Or he says I have a thorn in my flesh. Why don't you go to the faith healer. Or why don't I heal myself.
Because we have verses like verse 11 and Hebrews 2 verse 4 that says things are done according to the purpose of his.
Will. Right. It's according to his will and he's the one who's working all these things out. That's right. So if God commanded those those disciples to go out and heal every disease they're going to have free reign to go out there and heal diseases because they were operating in obedience to God.
Exactly if if people were given the gift of tongues in order to confirm the gospel and show to show the people who are yet unbelieving that God is doing something which will get to that when we get to chapter 14 and they were absolutely be able to speak in tongues in order to prove what God has done because that was the purpose for which God had given those gifts to people.
And there's your spike and there's your spike. Yeah. I mean it only makes sense that there would be a spike in supernatural glorious activity when the second person of the Trinity takes on flesh and comes to the earth.
Amen. Yeah. I mean I don't know when through history you would expect to see a spike. But when when God in the flesh is here. Yeah I think that would be a pretty good time to expect to see a spike absolutely supernatural activity.
Or at least visible supernatural activity. Because there's there's tons of supernatural activity going on and a lot of times we just don't see it. Right. And and this is way off track so pull me back real fast when I get started.
But I really think that there is we have so separated in our minds the physical and the spiritual realms that we just don't understand what the reality that we're living in we know here's an example we know for a fact that when we worship God when we go to the Lord's house on the Lord's Day even if there's only 10 15 25 people there the empty seats are filled with angels.
I mean think of that when you go to church tomorrow the empty seats are filled and there are angels around the rafters there there are people there were there angels there spirits worshiping God with us.
And we just never never see it. People are taking care of the angels are taking care of us. They're doing God's will all around us. I mean you know boom I elbowed an angel in the face didn't even know it.
They didn't feel it because I'm a physical being. But it's those type of we have to get to understand that the reality of the physical and the spiritual is much more a unit. Well it's good to distinguish between the physical and the spiritual.
There's probably much more overlap between the two than we give credit because we don't necessarily see the spiritual realm. Right. But but when when God the Son comes into the world when you have the spiritual breaking into the physical when when God becomes flesh you would expect to see more visible signs of the spiritual world in the physical world that that's one of the things that we're saying.
Well.
If you can take a rabbit trail I can take one too. Hey I took mine in two minutes two minutes. All right. So we've got to cover 16 verses in mind. I'll do this quickly. Just I'll just comment on something that you said the spiritual the physical you know having that unity that that we don't recognize that we don't see and we don't contemplate meditate on.
I think the Jews understood that better than than what we do and how. And we don't understand that they understood it. And I think that would help us in our hermeneutics. Sure. How would they have understood this passage and it bringing some eschatology in here.
But you know we were talking we go back to Daniel and talking about the the spiritual forces the angels that that kind of led nations they were in charge of nations. And and there you have that physical and spiritual tie-in together.
Yeah. And I think you know the Jewish people would have understood that where.
We have a hard time understanding that. Mm-hmm. Cool. Now. Now do the Lord's Supper. Do the Lord's Supper. What do you mean. Same same topic when we talk about the Lord's Supper. Explain yourself. The Lord's Supper is the the bread and the wine that we take to commemorate.
Oh whoa. Okay. To commemorate Christ's body and blood. Now the the Bible says this is my body which is given for you this is my blood. There is a real sense in which those physical elements there there is a there's a real spiritual presence there that is dangerous to the unbeliever to the point of sickness and death and it grants real incredible grace to the believer.
Yeah it's one of those things for us to think about. Watch I thought.
You were gonna take us to sub transubstantiation or something. I'm.
Gonna stop short of that. I said the physical and the spiritual not the.
Physical and the physical all right. Let's jump into these verses before we run out of time. I think we're in verse 12. For even it for even as the body is one and yet has many members and all the members of the body though are though they are many are one body so also is Christ from a one spirit.
We were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks whether slaves or free. And we were all made to drink of one spirit. For the body is not one member but many. If the foot says because I am NOT a hand I am NOT part of the body it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
And if the ear says because I'm not an eye I am NOT a part of the body it is not for this reason any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye where would the hearing be the whole or hearing wherever the sense of smell be.
But now God has placed the members each one of them in the body just as he desired. If they were all one member where would the body be. But now there are many members but one body and that I cannot say to the hand I have no need of you.
Or again the head to the feet I have no need of you. On the contrary it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. And those members of the body which we deem less honorable on these will bestow more abundant honor and our less presentable members become much more presentable whereas our more presentable members have no need of it.
But God has so composed the body giving more abundant honor to that member which like so that there may be no division in the body but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers all the members suffer with it.
If one member is honored all the.
Members rejoice with it. Yes. So he he starts off talking to them about how here you as an individual. This is how you need to relate to the gifts. The gifts are given out by one God. They're given to you as the Spirit deems necessary as he is he wills it and because he gives it out to individuals.
And God has called individuals to be the church. Here is how you need to think of this as a group of people as a congregation as a body of Christ. You need to think of this in a way that I'm going to use my gifts to benefit the rest of the church.
So I want the gifts that are going to help me to benefit the church the best way that I can. No not. I want the gifts that make me look cool in front of everybody right. I want to be. I want to recognize what the Holy Spirit has done in me and then use that to benefit my brothers and sisters.
Each and every time we get together and even when we're not together the times where I can look out maybe give him a phone call do something behind the scenes and send it to him you know pray a whole bunch of different things.
And so he starts there. And he has to part of the maturity process. He then says no. Is everybody a hand everybody a face or an eye some some of y 'all are feet some of y 'all.
Need to wash. But this does speak to maturity. It does because it it speaks to how we treat one another. And and let's say that the continuationist view is correct I've witnessed so often this the kind of attitude that that Paul is condemning here within them.
Oh you you don't flow in the Spirit you don't understand the things of the Spirit you don't speak in tongues you don't you know you don't behave this way. You don't understand these things. So therefore you are less than and Paul is condemning that kind of attitude here within the.
Body of Christ. Right. Right. Yeah. Because he says is there by an eyes or by a foot. Everybody say no verse 20 or 18. But now God has appointed the members each one of them in the body just as he desired.
Right. He desired. It's that way we would have a full orbed blessing of the church by the body of the church and and here's here's the thing it goes on. He talks about. There are more presentable and less presentable parts of the body there.
It's okay for me to walk outside with no hat on. No mean maybe unless it's really sunny that I don't want to blind folks or my forearms done. But if I go out with no pants on y 'all gonna be upset you're gonna want me to put pants on.
And why. Because there are less presentable parts of my body. And yet he said he says here and those members of the body which we think as less honorable or should be less out there on these we bestow more abundant honor and our less presentable members become much more presentable.
There are people who who should not be in the limelight. They should be behind the scenes. And those are precious precious people because it's saying that those are made more presentable. They're there.
They're some of your most intimate parts need to have covering. They're very important things. They aid in digestion functions removal of waste whatever. And they're very very important. But you cover them up in order to protect them in the same way in the church.
There are people who are given gifts by God who should not be in the front and center. But they should be protected because their their gift and their ability to aid and help the church is very very special.
And it's a gift from God that they be a part of us. And without them we suffer we suffer big time. So you shouldn't all try to be ahead. Some of y 'all should be happy to be the little toe. And we all need to remember that the place that we're given in the body is a place that was given to us by God.
And those things that maybe we keep hidden a little bit. It's not because they're not important. It's.
Because they deserve to be protected right. And this goes back to Pauline having us or wanting us if we'll see it just to see the church as a whole unit. Yep. And if if one area of the building is weak it's going to cause the whole building to be weak.
So we have such a strong desire to put the more fancy desirable gifts up front on stage and and exalt them put them up on the pedestal and we forget the the less desirable gifts the ones that like you were talking about.
And so when we don't we don't seek to build those folks up who have this certain gift that are less desirable and encourage them and train them build them up. Then our unit our building is going to be weak in that area and we're gonna collapse because we have a we're off in our focus we're.
Unbalanced. Our focused right and the the desire of the people in the church for which gifts they would think are the special super awesome gifts changes. It seems that the Corinthians had an infatuation with tongues you know.
Hey look what I can do. This is pretty cool isn't it. And no doubt that's that's. That's pretty intense that you can just out of nowhere speak a different language. Right. It's incredible. But just the same way there are folks who who are given the gift musical abilities not honoring God.
In the use of those musical abilities maybe I should I should get up there and do this or that. Maybe I should preach but maybe you shouldn't. Maybe maybe you should recognize. I mean depending on who you are.
I mean it's it's rare that that I don't know. I don't know is if there'll ever be a time where somebody says well my spiritual gift is prayer so y 'all need to or extra faith so y 'all need to put my name in the bulletin.
Dan super prayer come to me. If you want your prayers heard and you don't see that as often. But the little old lady who prays in the church she heard the effect of prayer of the righteous avails much.
So it can change which gifts are more desirable or less desirable. And the principle holds true that whichever gift you do have in the body use that gift humbly to benefit your brothers and sisters. And and that's really what Paul's getting at.
Here. Yeah I think that's a good place for us to stop. If you agree. Yep based on our time all right. So we're kind of had a kind of hit a time time crunch. Here. That's okay. We do want everyone that is able to listen and hear to come to the saving knowledge for their self in Jesus Christ.
To reach out. Yeah go ahead.
All right. So God has called all of these folks together and given them gifts in order to build them up. But look at what he says in chapter 12 verse 1 it says. Now can concerning spiritual gifts and they cause them as brothers.
The Church of God here is a family of God and it's a family of God because God has called them all together and given them gifts. And the first gift that Christ gives to the church is himself. That's why we can call him brother.
We can truly call God our father. And because we are called into this community's family of faith there are certain benefits that come to the church. And those benefits are salvation and in grace and forgiveness.
And all of these things come because Jesus Christ came to the earth died on the cross taking our sins and putting them on himself and then taking those things to the grave killing them then arising with healing in his wings.
So that way he can give gifts good gifts to the Church of salvation and righteousness give empowering people to encourage one another in the family of God. So that way we truly have a brand new family brothers and sisters in Christ that have the benefits of Christ death burial and resurrection is getting up from the grave the eternal life to come and his ascension where he is ruling and reigning now.
So that's why these gifts are important. And it's important that we follow along in the same vein that we remember that these gifts are for others because we have been given the ultimate gift and that is salvation in Jesus Christ.
That's right.
And if you have received that gift then as Paul here is encouraging them and encouraging us let's treat one another as family. Let's love one another no matter what your gifting is and how we or the world wants to view it love one another be kind to one another and build one another up.
So let me let me pray for us as we close. Father we thank you for this time we've we've had together. Thank you for opportunity to look at your word. Thank you for teaching us help us to understand what you're saying accurately.
That we may live in light of your word. Empower us with your spirit that we may live it out and be pointing the world to you in Jesus name. Amen. Thank you everybody for watching and listening. We really appreciate it.
Remember that Jesus is King. Go live in the victory of Christ. Just speak with the authority of Christ. Go share the gospel of Christ.
