Jesus in the Bible and the Qur'an Part 3

Why the Prophets Did Not Preach the Trinity Before Jesus

Then why didn't the prophets before Jesus preach that?

Especially if the relationship between the Father and the Son was there since the beginning.

The Father and the Son was there from the beginning. It was not revealed until the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The Trinity is primarily revealed in the coming of Christ in flesh and pouring out of the Holy Spirit amongst the people of God.

And so while we have some glimpses in the Old Testament, certainly that tremendous text in Isaiah 9, a child will be born to us. Those are the normal terms. The very same error that Ruth found in the third, I of Surah 112, they yell it.

A child will be born to us. Normal kind of birth. He was born a man, but a son will be given to us. Psalm 2, kiss the son lest he be angry. There are these prophetic pronouncements, but they do not become clear until the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

Until he actually appears in flesh. And so what the prophets taught was belief in Yahweh and acceptance of his promises. And that those promises were found in the scriptures. That God preserved his word, which he did.

We know what the word of God was, what had been given to the people of God in the days of Jesus. And we know what was written at the time of the New Testament. Yes, the gospels were written after Jesus.

But far closer to the time of Jesus than anything the Sunni Muslims accept in regards to the Hadith. So I'm not sure why the fact they are written later somehow means that they are, you know, unless it was an mp3 recording that it wouldn't have authority.

Obviously that wouldn't be the case.

Salvation Through Jesus and the Old Testament Witness

Imam Saeed, a brief response to that question before I give you yours. So, in salvation through Jesus, why didn't the prophets always preach the salvation through Jesus?

I think the audience knows the answer that I'm going to give. It doesn't make any sense to say that these are ideas that is not valid. That Jesus was the existence from the beginning, made clear. When we don't accept this very notion, I don't think...

Imam, what do we have about Muhammad? It's related to this, if I'm reading this correctly, the picture of salvation presented by Jesus is mentioned in the Old Testament in Psalm 22. So Jesus being crucified in Psalm 22.

What is there about Muhammad in the Old Testament? I think the problem is there are prophecies about Jesus in the Old Testament. Jesus coming to offer salvation. Are there prophecies about Muhammad coming with his message in the Old Testament?

And it's slightly off topic. Okay, let me ask each one. If Jesus was not the fulfillment of this prophecy, who is? And should we be looking for another God-man?

I just want things that have been said in Bible or Gospels. And the Quran takes a completely different position. So, I mean, I don't think that there is any way to accept this notion and respond to it.

It's really not relevant.

Great response.

My understanding is that the presence got up from the cushion he was on. The Hakkat Torah put on the cushion. He said, I believe everything in this book. We know what the Jews had in the 7th century that would have been placed upon that cushion.

And it includes words of Isaiah 9 -6. It speaks of one who would come, who is called El Gabor, the mighty God. And so the question is, how can we accept that these books are from God as the Quran says they were, and yet not accept what they themselves state in their text?

All right.

This is for you, Dr. White.

It's another great response.

If I may, this is the last question.

Yes, last question. Dr. White, you said that the Quran reflects poor knowledge of the New Testament. However, the Quran mentions many biblical stories like Joseph, Moses, Jesus' miracles. In fact, Moses is the most talked about prophet in the Quran.

The biblical stories of the Quran and Judeo-Christian scripture match to a great extent.

Why is this?

The Qur'an, Oral Tradition, and Biblical Story Differences

Well, I think it's excellent. And sadly, most of the Christians here have already asked me if you've read the Quran. You would say you have not. And probably for most of the Muslims who have read the Bible, you have not either.

It seems to be one of the problems that we have. But when you look at the stories as they are narrated in the Quran, you discover that they very much bear the mark of oral tradition. That is what you would hear as people were talking about their religious faith, especially when Muhammad was a younger person.

But you do not have textual reliance upon the Old Testament text. And what you do have are changes of the story that reflect an overriding idea that prophets have to be particularly holy. They do not represent the picture of the prophets that the Old Testament itself gives in regards to sinfulness of men, the fact that God works with sinful men.

And so the changes that are introduced into those chronic stories, 600 years after the time of the Testament, thousands of years after the actual writing of the historical narratives of the prophets in many cases, reflect a concern that Waldo would never do something like that.

Solomon would never have all those wives. Actually, that then indicates an editing process that has gone on in the thinking of the person who is relating these things, which I do not think actually reflects history itself.

Imam Saeed, isn't there a lot of agreement between the Bible and the Qur 'anic stories about the prophets as the issue?

The way the Qur 'an presents itself has to be understood very clearly. The Qur 'an is, according to the Muslims, the word of God. It is not the writing of Muhammad. Whether it's that you are not going to take the word for granted, and that has been the challenge of the Qur 'an since then, made it very clear that this is the Qur 'an.

So you look at it. We are not at all saying, okay, this has to be the Qur 'an.

Two conclusions now, however, both boards seem to answer. And so I'm going to begin with the final statements. Dr. White will have seven minutes here this evening.

The location is difficult to get to, especially those of you who drive in the city a lot. And so for you to come this direction, I'm very, very thankful for that. And thank the church for once again giving us this wonderful location where we can have this very important and meaningful dialogue.

Especially I thank the Imam for taking his time and for doing so on such quick notice. And I'm really desirous to see more of these kinds of dialogues take place because I think it's vitally important that we show respect for truth, that this does illustrate we live in a land starved for a love of truth.

Many people are very apathetic about truth today, especially when it comes to the existence of God and his promises to us. What we have heard this evening has been a comparison of two different positions,.

And they are very different positions.

And we have not in any way, shape, or form whitewashed those differences. We have seen a consistent testimony from the text of the New Testament in regards to who Jesus is. And while we have agreed that Jesus was a man, he was a prophet, he was virgin born, that he worked miracles, that he had a special relationship with God, all those things we agree upon.

What we disagree upon is the consistent testimony, not only of the prophetic utterances of the Old Testament, but likewise the consistent testimony of all the New Testament to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God.

That Jesus has eternally existed. That Jesus came specifically to give his life as a ransom for sinners. This was the message of the original followers of Jesus, which interestingly the Koran says, Allah would make to be victorious over their enemies until the day of judgment.

And yet, everything that comes from the first century, those first hundred years after the Christ event, speaks of the crucifixion of Jesus. The first people who come along and say anything against that are called Gnostics.

And they deny Jesus died on the cross because they didn't believe Jesus had a physical body in the first place. So they're hardly the people that our Muslim friends should be looking to. The reality is, all of the evidence that comes to us, that has any meaningful connection to Jesus, to Jerusalem, to the area of Israel, etc., etc., anything that comes from that time period, anything that comes from that area, tells us that the early Christians all taught the same thing.

That Jesus was the son of God. And that he died upon Calvary's tree. That is the historical foundation. That is what history tells us. There is historical evidence of these things. That's in the Testament teaching.

We go 600 years down the road. We travel 700 miles away. We change language and culture. And we come to someone that we all admit was not even literate in the sense of a man of letters and learning and things like that.

And we have a book that is given to us. And this book contradicts what has come before. Now, I don't think that the author of that book thought he was contradicting what came before.

But he didn't know the book.

And if we read backwards, if we put lenses on and look backwards and make that the filter through everything, now we have to accuse all those writers of either completely misrepresenting Jesus or not knowing the truth about Jesus.

Or we have to make allegations of corruptions of their scriptures. All sorts of things like that. From the Christian perspective, you see the consistency of the prophecies, the fulfillment of the New Testament.

And anything that comes after that that does not speak in accordance with that truth is to be rejected. In fact, I would argue that actually is the argument of Surah 5 beginning around verse 40 or so.

Because the author thought he was being consistent. But he was not.

And so we have to look at that, my friends.

We have to look at what the evidence presents to us. We can't just simply say, well, the Quran is right.

Can you not go beyond that?

Can you not say it's right and here's the evidence? And can you be consistent when you make that argumentation? One of the saddest things that I've experienced in my encounters with my Muslim friends over the past number of years has been how many of them are willing to grab hold of the writings of people that come from.

A completely different worldview.

Atheists and naturalists. People like Bart Ehrman or people promoting the Gnostic myths and things like that.

Just to attack the New Testament.

They'll never use that worldview when analyzing the Quran.

All know the Quran.

They'll use one standard for the Quran and another standard for the New Testament. I say to you, use the same standard.

Test them both.

And when you do, you'll find one. That's why I believe what I believe. I mentioned earlier, I consider myself a student of Islam. I don't think that at my age. But I have taken the time to try to the best of my ability.

But I have attempted as best I can to accurately represent the best of the other side. The best the other side has to present. And I have obtained materials on the ancient Quran and manuscripts and things like that because I want to make sure that I'm being accurate.

And that I'm not applying.

A different set of standards to Islam that I'm applying to my own faith. And I simply ask anyone of you here this evening who hold to any form of the Islamic faith. As you analyze what I've said this evening, please recognize that you need to do the same thing if you are going to be above the truth.

You cannot use one standard.

In rejecting.

What Paul wrote in Philippians chapter 2 and then a different standard to believe whatever Muhammad wrote 600 years later.

You can't do that.

If you're going to believe in prophets and revelation, then.

Be consistent. That's all I ask of you.

Listen to what we've said this evening and examine what's going on. Thank you very much for being here. Thank you, Shukr.

Seeking the Truth with Consistency

I want to express my thanks and gratitude for the hospitality that the church has extended to us and your sacrifice of coming here to know what we have to say. And I want to share with you. I'm here to share the way...

And from both sides, we need to know very clearly that we are on the path of seeking the truth. And this search for seeking the truth.

Never ends.

And that's where what we need to acknowledge that our mind, a mindset of willing to look at all the evidence is just going to be presented to us.

And.

After listening, I can say one thing very clearly.

That.

In the case of Jesus, whether it's.

His divinity.

Or His crucifixion,.

Any evidence.

That will tell me that Jesus was divine or His crucifixion did.

Happen,.

And that crucifixion is the way to find salvation. What are the references that you have? The Quran that all they came to share there with their people. And they did their best that during the time they rejected Him, they rejected His faith.

We.

Cannot assume that Jesus, when His mission, everybody accepted Him. There were people who rejected Him. And they rejected Him very.

Badly.