The Cults Presupped w/Cultish

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics, I'm your host Eli Ayala and today I have two very special guests, one of which will be joining us a little bit later, he's running a little behind and that's all good.

But I am happy to really have the host of the Cultish Podcast, if you guys are familiar with the podcast

Cultish, it is part of Apologia Studios and they have an excellent podcast where they talk about the cults, the occult, and my favorite aspect of their show is their interviews with people who have come out of the occult or the cult and it's just awesome to see really first hand what

God is doing, saving people out of these systems, which it kind of appears like those are kind of the lost cause, right?

How can someone from Satanism or Santeria or a Wicca or something like that, how can

God deliver such a person from those systems? Well, my hosts, well my fellow guests have had awesome conversations with people who have experienced that very thing and so I'm happy to have them on and have them share some of their experience based on their discussions and perhaps jump into some apologetic application, how do we do apologetics to people who are lost in the systems of the cults and the occult and not just apologetics in general, how do we apply a presuppositional approach to people with competing religious and philosophical systems?

So I'm very excited to have our guests here. Now I'm going to introduce my first guest,

Jeremiah, and Andrew again will be joining us a little bit later when he's able to hop on.

So without further ado, I'd like to welcome Jeremiah. How are you doing brother? I'm doing well.

I'm coming to you live from my house on a webcam that is probably about six years old and in that world, that's probably about two to three decades, the way technology is.

I just had errands I had to do, so my wife's in a Bible study, so I've got some free time, but you can hear me loud and clear, so we're rolling.

No problem, that's all that matters, right? Yeah. That's all that matters. They get to see you in the raw, right? Without the full, the lighting and all that kind of stuff.

So this is very appropriate in the back. You have kind of a light shining on the wall. It actually looks like a ghostly figure.

So very appropriate for our conversation. Well I'm sure most people are going to know who you are, but why don't you just tell folks who you are a little bit about your podcast and then we'll jump right into our discussion.

Yeah. So I go, I co -host and help produce along with the studio, a podcast and kind of run it.

It's really a Christian ministry called Cultish and it is a podcast that came to fruition back at the end of 2018 and we kind of have the idea, if any of you have followed

Apologia for a long time, we have always done outreach and ministry to the Mormon community,

Jehovah's Witnesses, like you name it, there's a lot of counter -cult apologetics really formulated after the late

Dr. Walter Martin, who wrote the book Kingdom of the Cults, which I would definitely suggest you get a copy of that if you don't have one.

And we just knew that we were expanding a lot of different topics that we were covering, excellent book, including, you know, you think about all that's happening with like End Abortion Now, Jeff and Luke on Apologia Radio, they're dealing with a lot more like social issues and there are just a lot of other areas that started to encompass what they would cover in their ministry.

So I always thought, man, it'd be nice if we had something, I think I had mentioned in passing, something that would just laser focus in on the cults.

And I was thinking more like Mormonism, I didn't even really think too much of like the occult, you know, that much back then.

And Jeff brought that idea to me and we started thinking about what that would look like and that formulated into what it is today.

And Andrew and I, we now co -hosted together, we started together in Arizona and Andrew's now,

Andrew's now my virtual co -host because he's part of Apologia Utah up in Salt Lake City, Utah, right outside Salt Lake City.

And we are now in our fifth year, we have covered everything from Mormonism, you know, interviewing people like one of Warren Jeff's former wives, we've dealt with other people who've come out of different polygamous cults, we've talked with former astrologers, former

Wiccans, former, you know, we had a pastor who accidentally performed an exorcism in the backwoods of West Virginia, which was a fun episode.

Just a lot of, a lot of things. Accidentally. I can get into that story if you're interested.

Okay. Because he reached out to me and this is a guy who's solid, who's a reformed pastor, like would adhere to a lot of the same, the same, what do you call it, systematic theology you probably would adhere to and the way he explained it is very interesting.

And that's been something that's very interesting because I think this will go into like presuppositions with how we understand the supernatural, what the

Bible talks about, the physical realm, but also the unseen realm, as far as the material, the immaterial, that will go into the presuppositions.

And so just, anyway, just a broad variety. I mean, I think of like so many people, I mean, we, our biggest, we just had an interview that we're releasing next week with someone named

Ione Park, who was a survivor, North Korean survivor. She's been on Joe Rogan, Lex Friedman. We got to talk with her for two hours.

So it's just honestly, like Andrew and I are just two normal guys and we've just been consistent and we just are just continuing to truck forward and seeing whatever falls in our lap.

We just want to be faithful and make good content for people to enjoy. So it's been, yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

Well I think you guys are doing an excellent job and you're really scratching where people are itching based upon what

I see and I'm listening to it. It looks like you guys are getting a great reception in terms of your content and especially

I really appreciated your episode on Bethel. I think it was Escaping Bethel, I don't remember the...

Yeah, that was eons ago. That whole situation was capturing lightning in a jar, just kind of given the circumstances.

But I think overall, you know, I don't like to brag about, you know, there's times where you've had podcasts that have like been top ranked, whatever.

I don't really like to say, hey, look at what we've done, like we're super creative. I mean, we try and, you know, do make the best content available, but I think the reception that it's got is really more indicative of just the marketplace of ideas and where the cultural and spiritual climate is right now.

Us being in a post -Christian, where the West is in full collapse and we're in a post -Christian really neo -pagan, resurgence of neo -paganism, like all these things are happening at once.

And this is something that's really bringing the light of the gospel and the biblical world into all these subjects.

Now, you mentioned Dr. Walter Martin before, so I would imagine his ministry heavily influenced kind of the direction you guys are going, right?

I mean, is he a major influence or is it just kind of like a side effect? Like, yeah, he's got great stuff because of the type of things that we're involved in.

How much was the work of Dr. Walter Martin an inspiration for the topic and kind of theme of your show?

Um, yeah, that's a great question. I would say both. And I think that one of the things

I really, really appreciate about Walter Martin is that he always, he saw that, hey, we've got issues within the church we have to deal with, you know, in -house discussions like people who kind of go too far into word of faith stuff or some of the hyper charismatic stuff or those sorts of abuses.

But his main goal was the world of the cults. And so he would always try and find ways to collaborate, even cross -denominationally with different Christians who, where they shared on the essentials and show charity, have charity in which we disagree.

But hey, where can we unify? Where can we collaborate? And how can we figure out a way to join forces to take on whatever subject that it is?

And so even though while we are confessionally formed Calvinists, you know, we've been able to have people like Mike Winger on,

Melissa Dougherty, just a lot of people where we would have, you know, significant secondary issue disagreements, but we've had, you know, the common faith in common.

We've wanted to address all everything from the progressive Christianity to the new age to Jehovah's witnesses and how to evangelize them.

I think that's one area, but I think ultimately another area with Walter Martin and just really seeing the

Bible as the authority. You saw this both in the works of Kingdom of the Occult and Kingdom of the

Cults. And he would, he lived from a perspective of neutrality. I don't know if him and Bonson never met or talked, but I think if you read

Kingdom of the Occult, he definitely had a perspective of neutrality being a myth. He would define a cult specifically of any group or organization gathered around one's own misinterpretation of the

Bible, where they always adhere to Christian terminology, but they fundamentally deny that Jesus Christ is

God come in the flesh. And he had that general presupposition. This is what defines a cult.

Because if you live in a world where if we're coming with a presupposition that Colossians is true,

Colossians 1, that all things are created by Christ and for Christ, and he's the firstborn over all creation that has preeminence over everything.

And in him, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge lie. You can't come to the idea of the cults from a point of neutrality.

And so one of the things that Walter Martin would say is that the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original.

That is the presupposition that Walter Martin would take in, and that's what we would do too. And ultimately, we'd say that's a biblical view, because every cult, they all want

Jesus on their team. And on some level, they have to do something with the Bible. So they have to give it some sort of adherence, but they fundamentally distort the true biblical gospel.

Yeah, that's very helpful. Now, when you talk about a cult, sometimes people get confused between the difference between a cult and the occult.

Do you think you can kind of tell us the difference between those two categories? Yeah, so usually a cult, when you look at it, it's something that there's a structural organization behind it.

There's usually a charismatic leader or an organization. And even cults and the occult, they can kind of coincide with each other.

Sometimes they're part and parcel with each other. But usually with a cult, it's a specific leader, an organization that has a specific dogma, ideology that you have to adhere to.

And truth lies in that authority. With the occult, it's really a monistic worldview where all is one, all is self.

The starting point is you. You are God. You are one. You are self of the universe. The truth always begins with you.

But the idea within the occult is really to transcend and reach a higher level of consciousness that usually taps into some sort of secret, esoteric, hidden knowledge and into another dimension.

That's really what the occult lies in. I would say a cult, very generally, is just an organization or a leader that you have to submit to one's authority where they are the ultimate authority.

They are autonomous, and you have to submit to that. With the occult or the new age, those are pretty much two sides of the same coin.

That is where the truth begins with you, where you are the one who's autonomous. But in that process, the way to increase your autonomy, to increase your knowing, again, is to find a specific practice to tap into alternate spiritual dimensions that the

Bible warns about in Deuteronomy 18. What I think is very interesting, because when we do apologetics, we tend to think in terms of the intellect, right?

We read the books. We get the arguments. We try to structure our thoughts. Even with presuppositionalism, it's obviously based in Scripture, but it can get very philosophical, right?

It's very easy, I think, and maybe you can share your thoughts on this.

It's easy to be overly intellectual and forget that apologetics and evangelism and interaction with unbelief is also a sense of spiritual warfare.

So how conscious are you of the spiritual warfare aspect when you're looking into these sorts of things or when you're engaging with people, sharing your faith with people who are in these various systems?

How do you balance the spiritual warfare, spiritual aspect, and kind of what seems to be more of an intellectual emphasis, although we know they're not necessarily separated?

Yeah, I think in both cases, especially with occult, is that you have, like I have lost count of how many

Mormons I've talked to, and I have an idea of where the conversation can go. And sometimes if you've been in countercult apologetics for a long time, it's almost like you can go on autopilot, and that can be dangerous in the sense that you're forgetting the fact this is a real person, a real image of God who has an unbelieving worldview or is in a false and deceptive system, and you have to realize, no, this is an actual person.

You have to love them. And it's also, there's times where you can have all this apologetic knowledge, but if you don't actually have love for these people, if you don't communicate in a way that, you think about soft answer turns away wrath, you become a clinging gong, in a sense.

And I think that is one of the areas that you have to be very, very careful about, because when you're beginning with a pre -substantial standpoint, you don't have to worry about, your goal isn't to be right, if that makes sense.

Okay. I don't need to be right. God is right. You're coming from a point of Christ being the ultimate source of truth or all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Kind of like how Spurgeon would say, I don't need to defend the Bible. That's all I need to do is unleash it like a lion.

I'm paraphrasing Spurgeon's quote. But yeah, I think though, especially when you're dealing with the world of the occult, you have, it's a lot more spiritual warfare, where you become much more aware that this is, some people are tapping into things they haven't seen.

Like they, I have a vantage point. I'll give an example. I was having a conversation with a lady and she was talking about her involvement in Reiki energy healing, which is essentially different.

It's a new age practice where you get in contact with spirits and you can use this sort of energy force like in other people, like in a healing session.

And if you look it up, it's even now, there's even like hospitals that now actually, you can actually get through your insurance like Reiki energy heal, which is crazy.

But yeah, I was talking with her and I started asking her about her psychedelic usage, which is a big thing that I think about, you know,

DMT, excuse me, ayahuasca, you think about all the different psychedelics that can be taken, but those psychedelics, the purpose of that is pharmakia and it's to get you into an ultra state of consciousness to make yourself subjective to other spirits.

And in this sense, like I started just asking her about, well, you're taking psychedelics, aren't you?

Like I felt the spirit inclined me to ask that. And then we admitted to that and said, yes.

And I asked her like, what about the entities that are getting in contact with you around three o 'clock in the morning? Because that is part of one, it's just what happens when people take these psychedelics, but it's also what the

Bible warns about when you do pharmakia, it's a form of sorcery, which God condemns.

And when you start getting these practices, it gets you in contact with things you should not be in contact with. So the idea of demons, if you want to call like entities or things that are attaching themselves to you or that you're yielding yourself onto, a lot of times, if we're in the reformed world, we tend to get kind of skeptical of this stuff because this seems to be out in kind of that hyper mania world.

But the reality is that the Bible does talk about how the Bible is a dimensional book. We have angels, principalities, dominions and powers, and there's places that God's not a killjoy.

In God's presence, there's fullness of joy, in his right hand, there's pleasures forevermore. But there are areas that are no flies in.

Doesn't matter what your intentions are. If you cross it over, you're going to be in trouble. And this is what happens with the occult.

And so in this area, I knew that this is when I'm talking to this lady is that I'm realizing that this isn't about me winning an argument.

This is about me being smarter than her. Like, where am I taking her in this conversation? If I'm just taking her to show, like, you're doing what the

Bible condemns you're doing. Therefore, you're bad. Like, that's not the end. The whole goal is to point her to the gospel.

And somehow or another, I put that background. I explained to her the gospel of John and how and how

Christ was the word made flesh and everything that she's trying to do can be found. She's trying to find everything in the occult that she can be found in Christ.

So in that sense, I'm realizing when you're doing apologetics, you're talking with someone, someone's there, like someone's soul.

You're talking about, like, eternity being on the line. And so I think you have to realize, too, that this person, especially adhering to Reformed theology, when it says the

God of this world has blinded those who have seen the lie of the gospel, the glory of Christ. This is what you're dealing with.

So your battle isn't going to be flesh and blood. This is about people who blind their eyes. But your goal is to proclaim the gospel, proclaim

God's truth, whether it's through showing the presubstantial argument, the folly of having a oneness worldview.

But ultimately, the catalyst for all apologetics is to point people to the cross and the point of the fact that the point to Jesus Christ and him crucified,

Christ who died for our sins, and this is where they can be made whole, both forgiven and all that.

That's so important, Jeremiah, because I think a lot of people, when we are engaging with unbelievers, we forget what we are defending.

We focus on arguments and we focus on logic and all these things are super important. We forget that we're actually talking to people and we need to be presenting

Jesus. And I think sometimes Jesus is kind of the period that comes all the way at the end. So I'm glad I'm glad you kind of bring that point out.

Now, I'm going to invite Andrew, who's joined us. You made it. Yay. There you go.

Welcome. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Well, I'm happy to have you. And Jeremiah has been doing a great job holding his own there.

Why don't you briefly introduce yourself as you're coming in a little bit late? That's completely fine.

But let folks know who you are. Yeah, my name is Andrew. I am a church planner out here in Utah.

We plan a church, Apologia Utah. Our first service was October of 2021.

I am a Reformed Baptist. I attend Apologia Utah. But before that, I was going to Apologia Church in Arizona.

I started going there in 2017. I am a husband with four children, eight, four, one, and three months old.

And it's been a wild ride. And I love Jesus. So that's a little bit. My social security number is 574.

Thank you for that comprehensive. I love that. I love knowing the details of because it kind of, you know, you mentioned kids and family, and you're just coming from your, was it your son's

T -ball game? Yep, that was a, that was an adventure for sure. It's very easy. We can see people on YouTube and we listen to their podcasts and we forget that they're regular people with, you know, regular things going on.

So it's a good, good reminder that anybody can do what we do, right? People should go out, talk about Jesus, share, share the faith.

Nothing special about us. We're just using a platform that God has given us and doing the best we can sharing the gospel.

So I appreciate, appreciate you. Well, we've been talking about, well, Jeremiah has been sharing with us the difference between cult and the occult.

He also spoke about the importance of recognizing that when we're speaking to these folks who are in these systems, we're speaking to real people.

And so it's not always about winning arguments and things like that. But what I really appreciate about your podcast is that you cover certain systems that you won't normally find in the generic apologetics book.

I mean, there is no chapter in Always Ready by Greg Monson on Santeria or, you know, or Wicca or Satanism or something like that.

What inspired you guys to go cover these kind of like fringe systems?

When I say fringe, I don't mean to minimize them. There are a large amount of people who hold to them, but they're not mainline in terms of like on the radar for most

Christians. They'll be like something. What? Like, what is that? This is interesting. And I think it's part of the intrigue in listening to your podcast.

I have no idea what that is, but I want to listen. So what inspired you guys to kind of go into some of these fringe positions and really engage how we are to understand these things and why it's important for Christians to know what's up?

And that's for you, Andrew, because you're fresh up in a

Poets' T -ball game. Yeah, yeah. So pretty much we've noticed, Jerry and I, that for the longest time, the unbelieving world at large is the ones that cover these topics, right?

Like Vice or Joe Rogan. And ultimately, they don't have an answer or a standard for what is actually occurring within these systems.

Therefore, they don't have hope or the gospel, which is the true resolution to the problem at hand.

So we see that we want to look at this not through a quote unquote neutral lens, which we know is impossible, but through the only standard in which can make sense of these fringe encounter cult situations like Satanism or Wicca and things like that.

And Christianity is the best answer to these systems because it actually brings salvation through Jesus Christ.

Jesus's sheep hear his voice, and we as Christians need to go out there. We shouldn't be shying away from these fields because then that's when the secular world at large jumps on them and they don't have an answer.

So that's pretty much where our heart was at when we wanted to tackle some of those cultish and fringe topics.

Yeah. Why do you think Christians kind of veer away from these what we would call these weird topics, right?

It's like, well, you know, I want to know about atheism. There are people who rarely come in contact with an atheist and sometimes come in contact with other people.

We tend to think of like atheism. Even if I'm not going to talk to an atheist, I want to read the book. How do we respond? But the other groups that people seem to kind of think it's too weird to engage in.

Why do you think that's the case with a lot of Christians? Yeah, I'd say it's because Christians are spiritual people, and there is spiritual powers out there that sometimes maybe many

Christians can be afraid of. You know, so it's something that they want to steer away from. I know me growing up as a young Christian, I was afraid of those things.

I didn't want to do anything with them. You know, I grew up as a premillennial dispensationalist. So I thought Jesus would be coming at any time.

I was going to be raptured at any moment. And I thought any of those like satanists or Wicca that had, I essentially thought that they had more power than Christ essentially.

Like, and I think that's what Christians, why they steer away from it. But I think that proper understanding of Jesus in Colossians chapter two, that he disarmed all principalities, rulers and authorities is really gives up.

We should be excited to engage these people because it's not us.

It's not our wit. It's not our intellect that can save them, but it's purely through the power of the gospel. And Jesus is the conquering

King. So yeah, that's awesome. Now I have a question here because I grew up watching horror movies.

Yeah. So my idea of, and I grew up in a Spanish Pentecostal church, so very charismatic.

And we were always in touch with the spiritual. And I don't mean that in a negative way.

I didn't grow up in a weird church or a weird household, but we were always conscious of the supernatural.

So it wasn't like I thought satan was under every rock, but we were aware of this realm.

Right. What role do you think? This is a question for both of you, and you can probably share your thoughts one after the other.

Maybe Jeremiah could take this one first and then Andrew jump in. What role do horror movies and the culture's perception of these sorts of spiritual realities?

What role does that play in shaping and forming how Christians today, evangelicals perceive these spiritual realities?

And I ask that on purpose because if you take a look at move away from movies for a second and we take a look at music, music,

Christian music is so influential in the Christian world. Unfortunately, many people will form their theology and their perceptions of God from music they listen to.

And I would imagine that that's probably very similar with movies. So what do you think the impact is there?

Is it a big influence? Do you think it's not a big deal? How often do you think Christians are allowing culture and movies to inform their views of spirituality?

I'll go on it. Well, I'll respond by saying I'm a huge movie buff. But the one thing is

I've never been, I've never been a big horror fan. It never been my gig.

I don't watch horror movies because well, Eli, I love Jesus. But anyway, I'm interested in like the history behind horror, like the whole history behind the horror genre, like and how it came to fruition.

And that in and of itself is fascinating. But I will say that a lot of the

Christian perception of the evil, the unseen realm and all that sort of stuff really has been affected very much by Hollywood.

So there's actually a classic lecture by Dr. Walter Martin on exorcisms. And in it, the first 40 minutes of his lecture, he's talking about the exorcist film, about what's accurate and what's not.

And so he talks about the exorcist movie. Yes. And so something like that, you know, you think about the classic exorcism scene from that, which

I have seen that I haven't seen the entire movie, but I know of that scene. There's no judgment here, Jeremiah. I don't think you're a

Christian. I've seen Jesus only for research purposes. Oh, yeah, for research purposes. But I saw the whole thing from beginning to end.

It scared the living daylights out of me. Oh, yeah. But in any of these movies, like whether it's

The Conjuring or any of these exorcism movies, it's made for cinema. It's made for when you're there, when you're when you're a tug of Coke and you're a big tub of popcorn, you know, and they want to keep you suspense.

But what actual actual actual exorcism looks like in real place on someone who's possessed is not what you see on the silver screen.

So, for example, I was telling you earlier about the exorcism of Kristen Bell in the episode we did with this pastor in Josh Robinson, West Virginia.

This lady had it was a witch that had a lineage that I think went back to Salem, Massachusetts. And when they went and baptized her, he said some sort of liturgy that was based off of something that Martin Luther said in regards to the role of baptism and the role of a believer.

But it had to deal with like Christ power and authority over that person that, you know, nothing, nothing in here can dwell within them.

And you had two or three independent lines of testimony later on to verify when they dunked this lady in the river, like something came out of her, like something happened because it wasn't just what you could see is what you can just sense, especially being a

Christian filled with the Holy Spirit. You've been on the street with evangelism and you can tell when something's up, you know, when there's a conversation of the intellect and there's a real spiritual battle.

I can't put on goggles and tell you what that looks like. You just intuitively know as a Christian. But if you look at this video of this lady when she's actually going under the water,

Andrew, you remember the video, right? Yeah. Yeah. So when you see the video of this deliverance, it does not look like anything that you've seen on, you know, people like casting a demon out of someone that you've seen, you know, in deliverance ministries or in movies.

It doesn't look anything like that. And so that, a lot of times, you know, we think we try and be very, yeah,

I think Hollywood is very much, we think very like Hollywood -esque, like with the occult. And even, for example, a more modern version,

Andrew, I'll let you jump in here, is the Doctor Strange movies from the Marvel Universe is that that is something that's very special effects, is very cinematized.

Even at the end of Doctor Strange, the second, one of the, I think the second

Doctor Strange. Yeah, where you see him, he actually ends up with a third eye like over his head.

And it's kind of like a special effects thing, but that's, that would never look like that in real life.

But there's a real worldview behind people who tap into the occult thinking they can open up this third eye to have special esoteric hidden understanding.

But that's not, it's not going to look like that way cinematically. So yeah, I think cinema has definitely had a huge effect on Christians.

We always, we tend to go to Hollywood versus scripture to understand the supernatural.

Andrew, what are your thoughts? Yeah, that was my thoughts. Exactly. Jerry, like when we, we would be fools to say that the media doesn't influence the way we see things, you know, it truly does.

But the truth is, is that it shouldn't be the way that we view the supernatural. Like we have the word of God that gives us what we need to know about the supernatural realm instead of looking towards other types of media influences to try to understand something we don't, we shouldn't be understanding further than scripture, if that makes sense.

There's, there's realms that we should know or realms that we should not know everything about. But I'm talking about the exorcist.

I saw that movie when I was 10 years old and it terrified me for years. And 10 years old, my brother, he, he tied me down and made me watch it.

Christmas morning. Crazy enough. I've got a pretty crazy story about my life growing up. But that movie though, still to this day, it influences me.

Like sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night, it may be 3am. And I'm like, I'll just see the picture of that little girl, you know what I mean?

In my head. And I shouldn't be afraid of those things. And the little creepiness creeps in, but then I have to correct myself with what the word of God says about the truth and the reality of the salvation in which

I'm living in being indwelt by the Holy spirit and things of that nature. So, yeah, I mean,

I definitely agree that Christians probably by modern worship music have an influence of the way they perceive

God through music the same way as they probably perceive the supernatural through media. But again, we need to correct some of our perceptions by and with the word of God.

So we don't fall over the teeter -totter into a realm to where everything is terrifying when the reality is, is that all things are being placed under Christ's feet.

Sure. So I think there's something going on like right now, both in the culture, but it's connected with the body of Christ.

So right now, as you know, we are full flux into neo -paganism, one -ism, complete post -Christian society.

This is a whole nother rabbit hole. I think this is a direct reason. I think all the stuff you're seeing about transgenderism is a direct result of neo -paganism because in Paul and Romans chapter one, the first by -product when you worship the creation rather than the creator,

God's roles of masculine and feminine get reversed and they get switched. So that's a whole other thing.

But what's also going on right now is that God is doing something amazing where there's, I would say a revival is going on in the sense that there are scores of people who are leaving the

New Age and coming to Christ. I believe that's what's happening with J .P. Sears right now. He's using very biblical—and this is something, too, when it comes to presuppositions, understanding how to minister to people who are in the

New Age. When people who are in the New Age, when they come to Christ, the only thing that they know is

New Age experience. So it's very easy if you want to put all our discernment filters on and microanalyze every single sentence, you have to realize that they're using effectual calling, right?

So think about effectual calling like John 6, 44. We know that's the process as we're so it is reformed.

This is how God draws people to himself. A New Ager who's in the process of experiencing effectual calling, they may say something like,

I'm coming into Jesus and his light, right? That sounds kind of New Age -y, but it's like something is happening where they don't they're wanting to all of a sudden, like,

I'm going to read the Bible. I don't want to. I don't want to. I have these crystals still in my room, and I don't want to go to put it.

I don't want to put any crystals on. I don't know. I don't feel comfortable anymore trying to learn my chakras. I want to read my

Bible. Then it's like, well, I want to pray, and I want to do these things. But even the way they're describing prayer is still kind of New Age -y, and that's something you have to understand.

And also, most people who are in the New Age are very—their authority, when you're is experience, and usually it has to do with something that's supernatural, which is also when these people in the

New Age are coming, trying to find their way into the church, like, they're coming to a church near you.

And I think the majority of people who are in the New Age, they typically do end up in a charismatic

Pentecostal church, just because that—they tend to be the ones who really share and acknowledge these supernatural and experience.

Unfortunately, you know, I have plenty of charismatic and Pentecostal brothers that I love, but a lot of times experience can be put precedent to Scripture.

And so I think that's something in the Reformed world, and we've tried to do with some of the episodes that we've done, is to say, hey, you know what?

We need to understand that what they're experiencing when it comes to, like, astral projection, doing some sort of occultic sounds, and all of a sudden your body is on some, like, astral realm, like entities are attacking you, like, this isn't something they're making up in their head.

And it isn't for some strange reason that they call to the name of Jesus, and this oppression stops. There's scriptural basis for all of this, and we have to be able to help these people give answers to that.

So there's—so yeah, that—and the thing is that we're trying to do a couple things. We're trying to help New Agers get, you know, get plugged in.

I think, you know, understand the presuppositions of how New Agers think. And they also—and I think, too, is that when people are new believers, they pendulum swing back and forth.

They'll be cage -staged about dispensationalism, and then all of a sudden they'll switch over here. You know, it's like having—it's like having—Andrew, it's like how many—it's like having a poet.

It's like having a poet running around, jumping off the couch, and hurting himself. Yeah. But yeah, so all that—so all that being said,

I mean, Andrew, I'll let you jump in here. It's just that that is the nature when it comes to presupposition about, like, what's going on in the

Church. There's a huge—I mean, there's an amazing revival going on, and they're coming into the Church, and using,

I think, presuppositional apologetics and really understanding their worldview and mindset, both before Christ and coming to Christ, it helps me understand them.

So, like, when I watched the JP Sears interview he recently did on how I'm coming to believe in God, like,

I believe—you know, I don't—I can't look at his heart. I think that JP Sears is going through a genuine

Christian conversion. A lot of the way he's describing things is, like, very baby

Christian, but using New Age terminology to define a real work that God is doing.

So, Andrew, yeah, go ahead. Well, real quick, I just wanted to bring something out, because it was related to my movies and music question.

I wanted to—I was making sure I was going to keep it, because you guys are saying so many good things. So we talked about how movies can influence our perception of spiritual things, just as well as music.

I don't know if you notice this trend in both music and movies, not just how it affects how we perceive spirituality, but how we perceive

Jesus. It seems to me that Jesus in contemporary worship music—and

I don't mean this disrespectfully if people really like the modern music, you know—but he seems very wimpy and very feminine.

And then in movies, horror movies, the demons and the spiritual entities are always stronger than the priest.

It's always stronger than the pastor, right? You almost have this weak Jesus, whether it's in the church or how he's perceived outside of the church.

Do you see that? Do you think that is something that impacts our perception as well? It's not just how they view spiritual things in general, but how

Jesus is presented both in and outside the church and our culture. It seems that we have a weak picture of Jesus.

Have I got that right? Yeah, yeah. This is what it makes me think of. I think not only is it affecting our perception, but I think they're also placating to what they think men want to hear—men to be the spiritual leaders of their home.

So presenting a weak Jesus is probably because most of the men in the Christian world are weak. Presenting demons stronger than Jesus is because there's men who are supposed to be spiritual leaders of their home don't realize that they have the

Holy Spirit within them in a conquering king. I think it goes kind of both ways.

There's a perception, but the perception's there because it's almost like that's what people are wanting—placating to a more feminine type of culture with men at large.

I'm not saying all Christian men. I'm just saying that it seems there is an epidemic, at least in our culture in America, with men not necessarily being men and acting like men because if we have the correct view and version of Jesus and we want to be more like him, we're going to want to be more manly because Jesus never stood down to anything.

He was a peacemaker, but he also said what needed to be said. He wasn't afraid of confrontation, but he did it with truth and with love, and he corrected when it needed to be done.

But at times, our culture doesn't seem to be that way. So I'd say a little bit of the way we live our lives as Christians is a reflection into the music as well that we hear, like a mirror.

Very good. Thank you for sharing that. Just real quick for those who are listening in, if you have a question or a comment that you'd like us to discuss and to interact with, feel free to do that in the comments.

Just preface your question with question. I'll give Jeremiah all the hard ones. I'll give Andrew all the weird culty ones, and then

I'll take the philosophical ones. I like that. I'm just kidding. But if you do have a question, feel free to preface it with a question, and we'll try to address it.

If not, no worries. You just want to listen in. That's perfectly fine. Okay, so I think this is the weird thing about spiritual things.

It's important, it is dangerous, and it is terribly interesting.

There's like a weird draw to it. It's like, oh, that's creepy, but tell me more. It's very, very odd how we are repelled and attracted to these sorts of things.

But I do think there's value in sharing some of the creepy experiences, because I think it helps us kind of remember the spiritual element.

This world we live in is a spiritual world as well as a physical world. So with that, prefacing my question then, can you guys share maybe the weirdest, most spiritually troubling experience that you've had, either doing the show or personally, and then maybe kind of tie that into the idea that while this is really creepy and weird, how should we as Christians have a balanced view of acknowledging the spiritual world while not becoming, in an unhealthy way, overly attracted to it, if that makes sense?

Anyone? Andrew, you go first. Yeah, go ahead. Tell us a creepy story. That was my fancy way of saying, tell us a creepy story.

Yeah. So I'll go back to when I was younger, okay? So I grew up going to Calvary Chapel Christian School.

I went there from first to seventh grade, and my brother did as well. But there was a time when my brother left, and I was about 11 years old at the time.

My brother ended up going to a public school. He also started getting heavily evolved into the occult and Satanism, and he'd mess with Ouija boards at our house.

This is when I was living in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And at that point of my life, a lot of weird things started happening in and around the house, even with me, right?

We had a shower radio, one that plugged into the... Not plugged in, but there's suction cups.

That suction cup did it, and it was battery -powered, and it would randomly change while I'm showering and play stations that weren't even stations with weird, creepy music.

I'd get that feeling that was really intense, where I'd just have to run down the hallway. But I'd also have heavily demonic dreams, dreams of entities screaming for me and at this time in my life,

I didn't really have a father or anything like that. So I more placated to the fear in the parlor tricks that these weak entities are doing in order to prey on 11 -year -olds.

And it was a very scary time of my life, but I remember it was when I was around 13 years old,

I ran outside one day, and I just fell on my knees. I ran out. This sounds so funny when I'm saying it now, but I ran outside.

I went to this little desert Mesa that we had that was across from a funeral home. And I said, Lord, please just help me.

And I was still scared of things after that, but slowly things stopped happening.

But what's interesting though is just last week, my wife and I, we were with our kids.

We're doing family worship in the morning for breakfast. And I was reading from Luke, and I was reading about the resurrection story.

And when Jesus tells Peter that Satan is going to sift you like wheat, the chair, this is absolutely true.

It happened. The chair lifted up, and it slammed into the wall about a foot away from us. You saw this?

Oh, I saw it. My wife saw it. I saw it. You saw it. Let's slow down here. So you saw a chair lift up.

Was it fast? Was it a lift? It was fast. It was like it lifted up, I'd say about five inches. It was right next to me.

It lifted up about five inches and went a foot and hit the wall. Like Jerry's been to where I live now. I have a little circle table.

My wife was sitting on the other side. My daughter on the other side sitting on her feet. My son Poe was over by the couch, and my youngest was in my wife's arms, and he's only three months old.

And Finney was over there in the kitchen. Like there's nowhere, no one around. And it was right when

I read that section where it said, Satan is going to sift you like wheat. It went pow. And we were like, what the heck just happened?

We didn't make a big deal about it because my daughter is sitting right there, and she's eight years old. But I kind of rebuked it, and we just moved on with our life.

You know what I mean? Because I'm older. I'm more mature. I don't really know. I don't have an explanation for it. You know what

I mean? Like I saw it happen just last week, and that was very odd. So it's funny.

It's funny that you asked me that question. When did this happen? It was last week. Oh, man.

Yeah. Wow. Pretty weird. Well, it's weird. But at the same time, as Christians, this is the thing.

As Christians, we tend to be so skeptical of these things that are perfectly consistent with the worldview we affirm.

Yeah. Exactly. It's like, did you know I was oppressed by a demon last night?

That's odd. It's like, well, I mean, the Bible kind of talks about how that's totally a thing.

So it's so funny how we have to... We've got a whole world like him, like seeking whom he may devour.

That's not... Yeah. Yeah. You don't have a lot of people preaching about those passages in a lot of churches, unfortunately.

We're not really mindful of those things. Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that, Andrew, and scaring away half my audience.

No, I'm just kidding. Like, what is with this guy? What about you,

Jeremiah? Yeah, there's just one instance I can think of. I mean, prior to even being at Apology, I've known

Jeff for like 20 years. And there was a time where we were younger, and we just kind of went our separate ways.

And part of me actually coming to Apology was a lot of us making like some full, like just reconciliation on some stuff, you know, just from our past.

And this is eons and eons and eons ago. But really prior to going to Apology, I just had a stint for like two years where I wasn't really walking with the

Lord. I wasn't really active in church. I was just jaded, kind of just really,

I don't know, indifferent. You know, there's a saying that says familiarity breeds contempt. That was,

I saw, you know, hypocrisy in the church that I was attending on several different levels.

And so I just got burned out and jaded. And it wasn't, it was really, it wasn't just,

I'm just joining Apology at church. I really was recommitting my life to Christ as a follower of Christ, because I really was backsliding for a while.

And I remember I was excited about, I was listening to worship music, and I was watching a video of a recent convert, somebody who had come out of addiction being baptized, and just like, this is so awesome.

And all of a sudden I felt like this, this like heaviness come upon me, like somebody is like grabbing my shoulders, trying to like submerge me.

And I'm like, what is this? And literally, I feel like I'm being like, I felt the,

I didn't know what to do, except I felt like I kind of walked over to my bed because that was the only way to like to lay down on my bed was the only way to get my composure.

And I literally felt like completely like pressed down on my bed. And then I wasn't like yelling to whatever was like oppressing me.

And I, not only that, I feel like something was like tapping into my emotions were like one moment

I was like super fearful. And then all of a sudden I would like fight that and try and find scripture because I haven't really even read the

Bible in like two years. And I was like, wait a second. It's kind of like, you know, that's a movie, you know, or somebody hasn't picked up the boxing gloves or something in like two years, like ring wrestling.

Wait, what verse? Wait, Colossians. That was the one about Jesus having, you know, supremacy over principalities and powers.

And, but it was literally like one minute I was like super, super fearful. And then the next minute

I was super like sad and emotional. Then I was super depressed. And it was like, it was like somebody had compartment was like dialed into and was trying to like make my emotions be weird or whatever to try and like make me just fall into despair.

And finally it was like these scriptures like started coming to mind. I had to fight it back. And all of a sudden it was just gone.

Like it never happened. And I was like, what was that? You know, I talked to Jeff about it and he's like, well, you haven't been walking with the

Lord for like two years. And of course, and now you're going to like recommit your life to Christ.

And you're now, you know, back at, you know, a church where you're doing the bantam, the stuff, of course, saying is not going to be happy about you, you know, it's like, oh, well, you're reading revelation about, you know, the dragon goes to wage a war to those who adhere to the lamb.

It's like, okay, that makes sense what happened. So, you know, I think, and again, it's just, we look at those and again, that's like an extreme example, but it can be anything from, you know, you ultimately were responsible, you know, and James talks to everyone since when they're killing, you know, one is enticed by his own desires.

But, you know, there can be times where, you know, my wife can irritate me. And, you know, there might be sort of undue influence from like Satan where all of a sudden you might want to say something like enticing, you'd like to say something to kind of like hurt her or something.

You have to, you know, you have to guard your mind and take every single thought captive and even like the minimal stuff too, you know, you know, life as a

Christian and dealing with supernatural sometimes isn't this crazy, extreme, you know, exorcist moment.

I mean, Andrew, like you're talking about that instant that you had, that's not something you did. Like that's a very unique, unusual circumstance.

This isn't like day -to -day life on a regular basis. But in those examples, you know, there are scripture talks about that.

And that's in the same way with now knowing we have a foundation for that. When someone comes to Andrew and I, and like we,

I think we'll probably be talking, doing more episodes of somebody who's the next New Ager, and they start talking about some crazy supernatural experience.

Of course, we're going to believe them because one, we've had those experiences too, but there's a precedent of scripture and how it talks about it.

Right. Well, thank you for sharing that, guys. I do appreciate that. It kind of brings this into reality, so to speak, even though we should already be mindful of these things.

We don't want to be so busy with life that we forget there is an enemy of our souls.

So there is an aspect of the Christian life that must not be neglected, and that is prayer and filling yourself with scriptures.

I always tell my listeners that the scriptures need to be the background music of your mind.

It's not like you're walking around quoting scriptures all day, but it's there playing that when a situation in our lives calls for those scriptures to come out, it's there.

It's there. It needs to be the background music of our lives. I think that's so important. Well, let's shift gears, guys, to more of an apologetic application.

Okay, so we've talked ad nauseum on this show about atheism and transcendental arguments and things like that, and that's all fine and good, and I think it's useful, but how might someone take a presuppositional apologetic approach to someone in the occult or the cults?

What sort of things should we be thinking in terms of strategy, in terms of, like,

I'm about to speak with this person who's in this system? Presuppositionally, where is my mind at?

What am I looking for? What are the sorts of questions I need to be asking this person to bring out, really, the main thing that needs to be discussed when we're in the apologetic encounter?

And you can use an example with anyone that you think might be interesting. If there was your friends in Santeria, and you're like, oh,

I'm going to talk to him tomorrow night. How can I be biblical presuppositional as I engage in conversation with this person?

Anyone could kind of jump in and tackle that one. It's all good. Yeah, yeah. So I think the best way to do it is to, number one, hear what people have to say about themselves, right?

But really believe what God says about the person. What we know through the Bible is that you do not have peace with God if you're not covered through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

So no matter what false system that they're in, no matter what type of philosophy or cultism that they have been involved in so heavily in their deep esoteric knowledge, your intellect about those systems isn't necessarily going to help you win them over to Christ.

It is good to be understanding of where they're at. But I think the best situation, especially when you're doing evangelism with someone, because they can talk to you and tell you how great their life is, tell you how good everything is going, how this

Wiccan type practice is making them be successful, and they can manipulate things around them,

X, Y, or Z, whatever it may be. But the truth is, is that God says you don't have peace with him. You don't.

So I like to personally play at the things that God says about the individual in the conversation to help them understand who

Jesus is, how they can be saved, and how their works cannot save them. I like to keep it on track that way.

Excellent. All right. Thank you for that. Jeremiah, how about you? Yeah, I think from a presuppositional standpoint, when it comes to somebody.

So there's a guy, Peter Jones, from the League of Nations and stuff with the League of Your Ministries. He has a book called

One or Two, Seeing a World of Difference. And he talks about the distinction, making always a distinction between oneism and twoism, where you have oneism, where there's no distinction between creator and creation.

All is one, all is self. So every single, you know, the New Age is such a huge, broad variety.

And this is something that's very helpful. It does help to kind of know some of the intricacies of astrology and some of those other aspects of New Age.

But it's such a broad. I think you froze.

Oh, you're back. Okay. You froze up a little bit, but you're good right now. You're skipping in and out.

If you keep, yeah. Okay. I think you're better now. Good now? Yes. Yep.

Okay. All right. So yeah, every single New Age, really, worldview comes to.

All right. So yeah, I think you're getting a little bit choppy. Your voice is getting, I think you froze. You're actually in a pretty cool, you know, when people freeze and it's kind of very unflattering.

You actually look kind of dope right now. He's got his hand. He's like, yo, what's good? It doesn't look that bad.

If you were going to freeze up, that is the pose you want. You want something cool, like. Oh yeah.

Always got to make the best of everything. That's right. Even, yeah, you look good when the technical difficulties go and you look, it's all good.

All right. I didn't catch what you said. I do apologize because it was skipping in and out. There we go.

And he got raptured and now we're left here. You see, we thought we were believers, but.

You know, apparently we didn't cut it. We didn't make the cut. That's hilarious. I'm just kidding.

All right. So, so here's your back. Okay. Did you want to finish your thought there? Yeah, I'll try it.

Hopefully this is, I'll go now, skip it no more. But yeah, you look much better now. Okay. Yeah.

So when it comes to, I just think there's one ism versus two ism. One ism is there's no distinction between creator and creation.

Everything's interconnected between the material, the material, every single new age worldview, every belief system, it encompasses that view.

Where two ism is the distinction between the triune God and creation. And so what will happen is that as you're conversing with them, and again,

I think Andrew articulated well, you want to really think about this is the person first. This isn't about, the goal isn't to dismantle the worldview or show the folly of it.

That's a point just to make them think, but that's to get them somewhere. And so, yeah,

I think that's the main thing. You know, if they are talking about uniqueness or how to treat, how you're supposed to treat each other or treat someone else, they're arguing for distinctions.

How do you account for distinctions when all is one and all is self? You know, as Ian Bonson said, and I've said too in a conversation, when someone says all is one, well, great, give me your wallet.

You know, and it shows the ultimate, the inconsistency of it. But I also understand too that usually somebody who's in the

New Age, who's in the occult, a lot of them usually come from, they have some sort of trauma in their background, and they're very emotionally sensitive people for the most part.

And so usually it's to show that they are trying to find hope and healing by, and this is where presuppositional apologetics in the gospel come in hand in hand.

The goal of people in a monistic worldview is to ascend, to hit this ultimate level of consciousness by doing all these things.

But in their worldview is broken because there's no way to ascend. Where can you ascend to when all is one and all is self?

There's no way to do it. And so what ends up happening is these people who are in the

New Age, they are on this hamster wheel trying to do all these different practices. You know, yoga,

Reiki, Burning Man, you name it. It's just one thing after another, and there's no end in sight.

Where the only way to ascend is to look to Christ.

When Christ has said, no one has ascended to heaven except the one, whatever the verse is,

I wish I knew. One who has descended. Yes. No one has ascended except those who is descended.

So they're trying to, they're trying to do what only Christ can do, which is why they need a mediator.

So understanding that worldview is actually, when I articulate to them, like, you can't ascend.

Where are you going to ascend to? Yeah. You're, and I, and I, you, I tell them, like, you're appealing when you saw the two ism and the, what was the other one?

One ism. Well, one ism. Were you appealing kind of to like a problem of the one and the many issue within like the worldview?

So like a lot of these worldviews tend to be pantheistic. And so you kind of just want to exploit pantheistic elements of it to show like, hey, this doesn't really make sense on your system.

Is that kind of like a roundabout way of talking about that deeper philosophical problem that we often talk about in presuppositional circles?

Yeah. That goes there because when you're, when you have a pantheistic worldview and the divine is in everything, you know, you're, then you're trying to say, well, well, even when it comes to ethics, like where, where is the law?

Where does the divine, like the law that's over all of us about don't do this.

Are you talking about how, what if, you know, they'll, they'll make their, at some point, they're going to make it a moral outcry. Well, again, by what standard where, you know, where are you getting the ethic?

Where is the law giver in a pantheistic worldview where we are all just part of this integral web of everything?

Where does that, where does a law encompass above us when all is one and all is self? So now when

I teach logic, well, when I teach anything, I always start, I teach sixth grade

Bible, eighth grade logic. And last year I taught 11th and 12th grade history that I always start every year, no matter what

I teach with the discussion of worldviews. And so it's interesting because you mentioned that there is a great variety within the occult and the cults, right?

That we can't know everything, right? And so what I, what I found helpful is, um, despite all of the variations and the differences within the nuances within various views,

I always think in terms of worldviews being comprised of three foundations. So I kind of joke around and say,

I like the lazy way. I don't have time to learn every in and out of every worldview. I'm looking for three things.

And these three things are so foundational that if they crumble all of the nuance details on top fall.

And so I teach my kids, whether they're a sixth grade or eighth grade, we talk about metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics.

Those are the three pillars of every worldview. Just to kind of inform my listeners. So metaphysics asks the question, what is reality?

Epistemology asks the question of how do we know? And ethics asks the question of how we should live our lives. Do you think it's useful to ask certain questions so as to expose one or two of those pillars and set them against each other on their own system?

That's a helpful way to kind of shortcut having to know all of the details.

And if you think that's a good idea, how might we do that with, say, a new ager? How do we expose the epistemology and then exploit that and turn it against some other foundation within their worldview?

Oh, I love it, bro. Okay. So what's very helpful is to make the person come into combat with Christ, because typically what you'll find with the new ager or people who hold to a pantheistic worldview is they're very culturally relative with their morals or they hold to some form of agnosticism, right?

So I like to ask them the question, well, Jesus says, because they'll say things like, well, all religions can lead to God.

All of these things get you on the right path. Well, Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the

Father except through me. So put them in front of their creator in God's word and say, if you're truly consistent within your culturally or morally relative worldview, then you can't actually tell me

I'm wrong, because to you, I'm actually right. If all paths are supposedly told some form of truth, you can't actually tell me

I'm wrong, but you're not going to be consistent within your worldview because it's not a consistent metaphysic in which you live in reality.

And you know that. You can't live your life that way. Just like when Jerry said, someone who may hold to that one -ism worldview, it's like, well, give me your wallet.

Have them come in front of God's law, which says thou shall not steal. And they know.

They're like, no, actually, I don't want to give you my wallet, man. I'm actually not going to be consistent within my worldview.

So I think showing and pointing to those inconsistencies is extremely helpful, especially when you point to the word of God in order to let it just pierce right through some of the madness of a disillusioned person.

That's awesome, because what they say with their mouth, all is one, is not what they believe in their heart.

Because if they believed what they said with their mouth in their heart, then they should have no problem giving you their wallet.

Yeah, very interesting. So you kind of force them to. Well, and I think this and I did a video on this talking about how to expose the imago de.

How do we expose the image of God within the person? And that's an excellent way to show that what they say with their mouth really isn't what they believe, but what they believe truly, that secret, hidden, suppressed truth is the image of God within them that they're they're holding down.

So that's a great way to kind of expose that good illustration of that. Jeremiah, did you want to add to that?

Well, yeah, I mean, I think, too, is just to really believe you're having a conversation with the unbeliever, just believe what

God says about them. And so, like, I just had an incident where I was at the

Mormon temple the other night doing evangelism, and I just had a conversation with a very sweet Mormon man.

And I just asked him this question. And I said, can I ask you just an honest question? Do you have peace with God like right now?

Right. And of course, I if you said yes, and I'll be, oh, no, oh, no,

I have to I have to convince him, you know, I have to I have to show these like this. No, it's like this person doesn't like I know that because that's what

God says. So it's either one or two things. If the person said no, it's because they're not truly honest with themselves.

They're in denial or they're or they're not just that that's not a card they want to play.

They show in front of me. But he said and then he said, no,

I don't really have that right now. I hope to one day. In that moment, it's not like, oh, I got you.

Like, my heart just sinks. Like, I hate that answer, you know, because I don't know where this where this one small conversation going to happen.

You know, I talked to this guy, maybe, you know, gave him the gospel talking for like two minutes after that, you know, and it's like that.

But I knew when he said that it wasn't like the fact that he didn't have peace of God didn't start because when he said it, it started because when

God this is what God says, it says about him. And I think that's honestly, when it comes to politics, how you view everything, like even like how you view history.

And when you're so when you're having a conversation with, for example, somebody who believes that the Bible has been corrupted.

And and this is where I think, you know, sometimes, you know, in apologetic circles, like precept versus evidential apologetics, it tends to be like the bloods in the crypts when it comes to people like fighting with each other, like which one's better.

Right. But I think like you guys got a link. Craig picture on is in the

Bonson T -shirt. Like we can't we can't walk on the same side of the sidewalk right now. The West Side Story, you know, shark snapping intensifies.

But yeah, when it comes to like the historicity, for example, of the

Bible or textual criticism, I believe I start with like I start from the foundation of having a word or shall pass away.

But by no means my words shall not pass away or the grass that withers a flower is a word or God will stand forever.

So I don't believe that. And even we look at I was talking with somebody who was LDS, who believes in the great apostasy that the church fell away.

Well, I don't believe that the church didn't fall away because of the fact that there are evidence of all people throughout all of church history adhering to the essential of the

Christian faith. I have that I believe I base on the foundation that Christ said his church would begin to prevail, would not prevail against his church.

And the Church of Christ would be throughout all generations. And so therefore, all that evidence will find fall in line, will fall in conformity to that.

So all of a sudden, I don't put evidence as the primary precipice. I know that and confidently that that stuff will.

Things will fall in line because God is the arbiter of history. And so.

So, yeah, I think that's I think that's it's an interesting cookie to crack. But I think, yeah, I think when it comes to precept, that's usually how

I like to view like history, for example, or even, like I said, believing what God says about the unbeliever and really believing what

God says about histories, what God says about ourselves. I mean, that's the foundation in which to start upon.

Everything else falls into place. Reminds me of something that Satan Bruggencate once said.

He says the first step to doing apologetics effectively is to believe your Bible.

Yeah. And that's I mean, that's that's very true. That is definitely the first step, right? And believe your

Bible. Have you met Sy face to face? I have not. I've had him on the show and we've talked for a long time, but I haven't met him in person.

He's intense in person. I love the guy. I had one time where I was like I was asking him a question.

And if you see this, I'll let you say it was. I think I was asking just some question about I forget what it was and kind of like playing devil's advocate a little bit.

And he got so intense. It was like it was like I was in a wind tunnel. I was like, what is this?

And I was like, I'm on your team. I'm on your team. That's awesome.

I got it. I got it. I talk to him every so often. He's a great guy. We've talked a lot over the phone and I've had him on the show a bunch of times.

So super cool. So, hey, we're at an hour and seven minutes. I'd like to get to some of the audience questions, if that's

OK, and then we'll wrap things up. OK, I'd like to thank you. I will thank you again as we end.

But I want to thank you guys so much for coming on. This has been a lot of fun. You guys totally seem like if we live nearby, we'd probably chill and have pizza and watch movies together and argue some theological point and have a good time.

So it's cool that we're able to connect through the Internet like this. Even though we can't be there in person.

So it's been a lot of fun. So let's jump right in. I'm going to kind of start from the bottom because I don't want to scroll all the way and then awkwardly search for the questions in the mix here.

But let's see here. So Fernando Medina asked the question, what do demons gain by creeping people out?

I love that question. What do you gain by creeping us out? What's going on? Anyone want to tackle that one?

Yeah, I would say that their goal is to try to get someone, especially if this person is a believer, to get their eyes off of Christ.

But what's funny about the demon and the devil is that Jesus actually promises us in Romans 828 that all things work together for good, for those who love

God, for those who are called according to his purpose, meaning that no matter what the enemy even does to you to try to think that they're gaining anything, nothing is gained.

All of it is to gain us, to sanctify us, to grow us into the image of Christ, which is,

I think, one of the reasons why the demonic hate us and hate Jesus so much is because they ultimately know that there's nothing that they can do.

Just like when the demons were looking at Jesus and said, have you come to mess with us before the appointed time?

They know things, right? And I think that's a level of hate that's hard for us to understand, a level of hate in so much that they know that there's nothing, no matter what they try to do to who

God has in his hands, that there's nothing that can happen to steal them away from Christ.

Because Jesus says that no one will snatch him out of my hand. Yeah. Thank you for that. Jeremiah, you have any thoughts there?

Yeah. Have you seen the film Dunkirk? Say again? Dunkirk, the movie.

I have not. Am I missing out? It's a great film. It's a great war film. OK, I got to check it out.

I love war films. If you know the whole story of Dunkirk, it's the soldiers, the English soldiers who are blind.

Oh, no. He froze again. Not a bad, not a bad pose again. He's got a pose. He's. All right.

You're unfrozen. Sorry. The bunker there, they're bombing you overhead. You got the bad.

All right. So it's a great war film, but at the very, very beginning. I can't hear you guys now.

Yep. I can hear you. OK. So at the very beginning of this film, you all of a sudden you see all these leaflets that are falling from the sky and one of the soldiers and three soldiers are walking together.

One of them picks up this leaflet and it's a propaganda leaflet that's being dropped by the enemy that says, we surround you to incite fear into them.

And so the thing about war, a big part of propaganda, where Sun Tzu in the art of war, it says how you need to appear strong to your enemy when they are when you're weak, need to appear as strong when you're strong.

You need to appear weak. All warfare is based on deception. So I think a lot of times.

Are you there? Yeah, I can hear you. You sound good. So I kind of think

I kind of see where he's going with his his question there. What do demons gain by creeping people out?

Well, creeping people out is a fear tactic, which is a normal tactic often used in warfare.

And when you are afraid, you typically don't move or respond or react. And a Christian who does not respond, react or engage is a is a victim of the spiritual warfare, right?

We are not really doing what we're supposed to be doing because we're stuck in fear or whatever the case may be.

So I think one of the tasks of the demonic realm is to strike fear in the hearts of people because it brings about inactivity.

And so that's something I think we should we should be mindful of. So we'll get Jeremiah back on there.

Take your time, brother. No worries. No worries. OK, so so I kind of just expanded on your answer that I think you answered in a wonderful way, because it's it's important to realize that spiritual warfare is just that, right?

It's war. And so there are various strategies that the enemy can use. And fear is definitely a a a well -proven, effective strategy to use.

So so thank you for sharing that that example with the war movie. That's super helpful. Here's a really good question by Jacob Glass.

He asks, how do you answer those who claim Christianity is a cult, according to the bite model? I'm not sure what the bite model is, but how would you answer those who claim

Christianity is a cult? And you want to tackle this one? I think I can I can I can throw my cap.

Yeah, sure, sure. I'll try to be as concise as possible. So the bite model is from Steve Hassan. He's a he's not

I guess he's secular, but he's actually part of a cult, which is pretty funny. He's off an offshoot cult and Judaism, but it's behavior control, information control, thought control and emotion control.

So the question really is, is, well, by what standard are we actually adhering to for what the definition of a cult is right?

I adhere to a Walter Martin standard, which is any group, person, organization's misrepresentation of who

Jesus is or the scriptures. So I'm not following into the same standard in terms of behavior control.

I mean, everything seeks to control our behavior information. Well, what are you looking up on Google? Where is it coming from? Are you checking their primary sources?

Thought control. I mean, we live in a world where we're fallen sinners. We're enslaved to sin until we're set free by Christ.

So I'd say the only actual way to be free and have thought control is actually through salvation. So I disagree with that and emotion control.

I would also argue that being set free from sin through Jesus Christ is the only way to actually have proper control through your emotions by the power of the

Holy Spirit. And historically, if someone wants to make the argument that Christianity is a cult, I would actually make the argument that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, and it was the offshoot pharisaical cult of the

Pharisees that was the one cult that was denying Christ and even put him up on the cross.

And Jesus Christ's death, rail and resurrection proves that the fulfillment of the Old Testament scriptures that prophesied of him and who he was to come.

And he completed it. Empty tomb, risen king. So that's right.

I think it's interesting. The first part there, you said behavioral control. Well, what's the opposite? No control of your behavior.

Complete. You're going to have to be controlled by something. And, you know, that's very interesting.

I think it seems like the opposite of this is anarchy, it seems, which doesn't create a pretty picture at all.

Jeremiah, did you want to share your thoughts there? Well, yeah, when you when you start to actually look at what Steve Hassan actually articulates when it comes to the

Biden model, these four aspects of it is that, well, what by what and again, by what standard, where where are you getting the argument that behavior control is wrong or the information control is wrong?

What sort of information? Is there good information control? That's good. I mean, I mean, think about it, Andrew, like you want to protect your kids.

And so you want to not you have information control about what your kids cannot can and cannot watch on television, especially look at all the different agendas of how people try to indoctrinate and sexualize their kids.

There's thought control, like there's ways to and every and every worldview practices that the question is, like, how do you just how do you distinguish between good, like the wrong and the good and the bad?

And when it comes down to Hassan, and this is the case with a lot of ex -cultists who are secularist, they end up becoming status where they believe that the ultimate power that where things should reside, like is the state.

And so when you actually start pushing him to be like, where do these ethics come from? The best thing he's been able to come up with, and this is on a

Joe Rogan experience conversation where he was saying, well, we could probably appeal to like some sort of U .N.

declaration of human rights. And it's like, OK, well,

I don't think first of all, the United and U .N. has had a law has not always had a clean slate as far as like any sort of corrupt.

They've never had any corruption like whatsoever. And they're like, well, and also you talk about like, what are the people who believe like who's governing the

U .N.? Are they the arbiters of ultimate truth? And you don't see that.

And so when you start pushing them on, what are you looking at? You can't get an ultimate accounting, like why these things are wrong.

I mean, I think Stephen was able to articulate the model because he is an image bearer of God. Like he knew that he was he was in college and he was manipulated by the

Mooney cult and he was brainwashed. He was indoctrinated and he was he was believed for two whole years that Sun Yung Moon was the

Messiah. He cut off the relationship with all his friends and family. And when he got deprogrammed, he was like curled up in a ball, was like bawling his eyes out because he finally got in touch with like his true self versus like the cult identity that left.

All that has to do like all that is like real tangible experiences that are real because he's an image bearer of God.

But in a secularist worldview or where all of a sudden the state is supposed to be the big arbiter of like what, who, what should and shouldn't practice the bite model is not consistent.

And one of the ways that Steve Hassan is not consistent in his book, The Cult of Trump, he does talk about aspects of Donald Trump and some of the very hardcore pro

Trumpers that are cult like you could make an argument for, but he completely ignores the other side.

And the reality is that both the one right and the left are act cult like many different ways.

Both sides pretend like the other one isn't doing it. And that's not to get into a whole political discussion that he's incredibly inconsistent in his arguments.

But ultimately, he resides his authority in the state, not in Christ. And I'm just thinking too, someone said, how do you answer those who claim

Christianity is a cult according? Well, I mean, is Christianity true? That's the question

I'm concerned. You can call it whatever you want. Is it true? Let's talk about its truth, not not lay pejorative labels necessarily.

We don't believe cults are false simply because they're cults. We identify cults and then we interact with the cults to show why they are false.

So it's more than just name calling between different, quote unquote, cults. So I think it's, you know, cutting.

I teach my students some of the best responses to objections and assertions is just so what?

OK, all right. You think it's a cult. Let's talk about whether it's true. So I think that's an important thing to kind of just bite through.

No pun intended to bite through to bite through to get to the central the central issue there.

All right. Well, thank you, Jacob, for that question. Here's a really good question. Roberto Esquivel, Esquivel.

I'm sorry if I mispronounce that. How should we balance the reality that there is no excuse for the unbeliever for rejecting the truth while sympathizing with those that are brainwashed by the cults and are led astray?

Very good question. Anyone want to tackle that? So what

I would say is what we need to do is lovingly, of course, be with these people, talk to these people, understand these people, but not also sacrifice the truth of God's word.

The best it says in First Corinthians 13, that love rejoices in the truth. We don't want to sacrifice truth for the sake of sympathy, because then it can turn into like an empathy really versus sympathy, and we won't actually preach the truth to them.

But there's also another aspect of this. When someone's coming out of a cult and coming into a church, we have to be understanding that there's baggage that everyone comes with from being an unbeliever to now being a believer that we have to get sanctified through the word and grow together as people who are part of a body we're not perfect, but we have a perfect Savior.

So we need to be understanding. We need to listen to them, and we need to just talk and be with one another.

I think it's in Second Corinthians chapter one. It says that we can comfort anyone in any affliction because we are comforted by the sufferings of Christ.

And I think that's a scripture that has really helped me try to listen to people, active listening, and just point them to Christ and his word and be patient.

That's really it. Excellent. Thank you for that. Jeremiah, you have any thoughts? Well, I think we can do it because that's what

Jesus did. You think about in Matthew 23, when he says, Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how he was weeping emotionally, how

I long to gather you like a mother gathers her hen, but you would not abide by the truth. And so I know that, again, this is beginning.

The answer is like believing in what God says that the law of God holds, it shuts the mouth of the unbeliever.

The whole world is accountable for God and that. Yeah, and so like they are, they are accountable to God, but also that they still are, they are lost and they want to worship.

Their worship is distorted. So you can understand, you can believe what God says about them, but also be broken over them.

And that's why when I watched, you know, there's a documentary called Holy Hell about these people who are part of this cult called the

Buddhafield for like 20 years of just this maniacal narcissist of a character.

It's a crazy film, although I would, viewer discretion would be advised, but it just, you look at these people who have been, you know, we're in this cult for like 20 years and now they're trying to pick up the pieces.

The majority of all them, pretty much all of them are not believers, which is the majority of where ex -cult members go.

They become atheists or agnostic. My heart breaks for them. And that's been a catalyst for, and that's really just been a catalyst for and motivation for cultish.

And so I think ultimately, like, how can you do it? Well, just be obedient, like just love the lost and be broken over that.

Like when you understand, like understand what the gospel is, we understand like who God is and how holy he is and how

I don't deserve salvation on any level that. And it's like, this is mercy that this is unmerited favor that I get from the creator of the universe who sent this son to die for me.

And I need to share this with people. And I need me to tell people that there is hope. And I think once you realize that reality like this, you can have, you know, you can understand that God is going to hold every single person accountable in the same way.

Andrew, when Andrew goes to the Hare Krishna festival with the crew there and they're sharing the gospel, we know that every single one of them is for that excuse.

We're all going to be accountable towards God. That doesn't mean, however, we can be broken for them as we should be as Christians, because we are saved by grace through faith alone as unmerited favor.

And these people need to hear the gospel. All right. Thank you for that. Let's try to fly through some of these as best we can so we can get as much in and then we'll wrap things up.

So we're up at one hour and 23 minutes. I hope you guys don't mind. All right.

You guys are having a good time, right? Oh, yeah. Good, good, good. All right.

Young Flav says, what would you consider sleep paralysis to be? Right. Is this something spiritual? Is this something natural?

What are your thoughts on that? Man, I would have to say it's probably a mixture of both. There's probably spiritual sleep paralysis and there's probably a natural form of sleep paralysis.

But we know there are many stories of people who say that they were awake in the middle of the night.

It's around 3 a .m. and they can't move and they see a demonic entity sitting above them. These are stories that people have, but there's also probably just some type of natural explanation for someone experiencing a different form of sleep paralysis.

So I'd say there's probably multiple forms and it can just lead on to the situation, of course, by asking questions to try to understand what the person's going through.

Even if you're not a doctor, I mean, I would just ask questions. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you can also experience it naturally.

I guess I had one sort of funny experience with sleep paralysis. I had a time where all of a sudden

I was asleep in my dream. I was in this bathtub and I was submerged. All of a sudden,

I was trying to hit the glass ceiling on the bathtub, which

I was under. I was blowing out bubbles and screaming. But in reality, what had happened was

I was just waking up and I actually had gotten a trolley horse in the middle of the night. My roommate actually heard me do a blood -curdling scream.

All that had happened was that I don't even remember screaming like this. It's because the trolley horse hurt bad.

I was half asleep not realizing it. So I honestly think whatever my REM was, as far as sleeping goes, that I was just visualizing.

I made some sort of dream reality, I guess, when I was dreaming of this whole situation.

There's nothing demonic in that experience, right? So of course, and this is why you can have a crazy experience, but you can't have that be the arbiter of truth.

Because if I was to take that, so for example, if I was to take the whole experience and say, oh, this means this, this, and this, because it was spiritual, that wouldn't be the case.

It's just a trolley horse. And it's actually a fun story. But some people can take that and go a mile with it.

Right, right, right. So logically speaking, if someone says, is it spiritual or natural? That's a false dichotomy.

It could be both. And just as you have people who are dumb in the Bible, they're unable to speak.

That's a natural thing. But in the Bible, it was a spiritual cause for it. So it's not an either -or necessarily.

So good question. Baltimore, Maryland asked the question, can a Christian be demon -possessed?

I do not think that a Christian can be demon -possessed greater is he who is within you than he who that is in the world.

Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, my body is now a temple for the living God. And I don't think that there's anything that can change that.

And I think there's a difference between oppression and possession. But I don't think a Christian, a true Christian, can ever, ever be possessed.

I just don't see that in the scriptures. And yeah, that's my answer for that one.

Yeah, that's pretty short and sweet, right? I often make a distinction between oppression and possession, oppression being external, possession being internal.

And of course, you know, the greater is he past. I mean, and even the idea where Jesus says that in order to plunder the strongman's house, you have to bind the strongman.

I mean, have fun, demon, plundering a house in which the strongman is Christ himself.

I mean, that's that's going to be interesting and highly impossible. But go ahead,

Jeremiah. Do you want to say thoughts? Yeah, and there's some people who are and I believe these people are brother or brothers in Christ.

And they're, you know, this is still an in -house conversation. But a lot of people in the whole Christian deliverance movement, they do have, in my opinion, some errors that just because I'm kind of end up like researching it is one of my many books.

I have a book on demon possession. That's actually by Barnhouse Publishers I'm going through, which is very interesting.

But one of the things that happens when you see an apologist, they flash their books like a regular person. It's like how to be a better husband.

It's like, well, we're reading about demon possession. Yeah, right. We're a very weird species of.

Yeah, so what they'll do sometimes, they'll use the language, have kind of Christian, have a demon, which honestly,

I think that is a bit of a blurring of languages because having a demon is not really a biblical term or something that you actually see, like within the text, what you will see is you'll see examples of, you know, any any example that believer dealing with spiritual warfare, it's always external.

The internal is always the flesh. What is inside me? You know, even the Ephesians six in the armor of God, that the premise of that text is that you are facing something in front of you, not within you, which is why there's no back arm.

You can't you can't let your guard down. And so so, yeah, I think there's an issue where they blur the language.

But ultimately, there's no area in the New Testament where it advocates for any sort of a deliverance ministry to be performed, be performed on the

Christian. And a lot of times, even a lot of what you experience of even like the earlier deliverances, and this has to do with like Christ coming in power and authority when he came into his ministry, is that he's dealing with people pre

Pentecost, pre people being filled with the Holy Spirit. There's nowhere in Scripture that that shows that anybody who is filled with the

Holy Spirit, one has a demon. And there's no example, there's no precedent in Scripture about casting demons out of Christians.

There are, however, there is a precedent where exorcisms can and do happen. That primarily happens through the preaching of the gospel.

And there are unique circumstances. The late Walter Martin actually performed several exorcisms and deliverances. But in those moments, this isn't about, you know, this is where you talk about the power of the cinema of, you know, affecting how we view things, you're really, you have, if you're in that situation,

I've gotten somewhat close to that, just with someone on the street who is demon possessed, you had better let go of anything on you that's fleshly.

You had better rely on the power of Christ and the power of the gospel to like rebuke that person.

But yeah, that is the, it's through the power of the gospel that you articulate those things.

But nowhere in Scripture does it give a precedent for Christians to cast demons out of other

Christians. Nowhere does it show pre -post -Pentecost of anybody who's filled with the

Holy Spirit to have demons in them. So it's a problematic view, and yeah, we're deep down the rabbit hole going out of it, because we'll be dropping some content on that probably around the end of this year, which

I'm looking forward to. Oh, interesting. All right, good. Well, let's wrap things up. There's two more questions, and I think we,

I would just kind of normally do like, well, let's wrap it up now, but there's literally just two more, and then we would have gotten to all of them, so if that's okay.

So they're softball ones, so I think we'd be able to wrap things up gracefully here.

But Janice asks, have you guys researched much about the medical medium?

He talks to demons and has a huge following. I'm not familiar with him, but if you guys are, feel free to address that.

Yeah, first off, oh, yeah. Can I, do you want me to do it, Jerry, or you? Go ahead, Ryan, you're nice.

Ask him to say it real quick, go ahead. All right, gotcha. First, I'm going to say, what up to the apologetic dog I see is in the building,

Jeremiah Nordier. Love you, bro. And no, Jeremiah, I will not grow a beard.

I read that, that's so funny. But anyways, I don't know who the medical medium is, but if it's on YouTube or something,

I'm going to Google it, because that's what I do. So I'm going to check that out. Thank you. Okay. Well, if it's somebody who's practicing mediumship and has a huge following,

I mean, that's sort of what you see right now in the whole TikTok world. And whether TikTok hangs around or something else, people have the ability through social media to gain huge followings, and so you're actually seeing the new age explode there.

I think the hashtag witch talk has around 50 billion views in regards to pieces of content. That's just one hashtag that has to do with witchcraft, 50 billion.

That's what we're dealing with right now as far as the explosion of the alcohol in the Western world. Wow. All right.

Our last question is unrelated to the cult and the occult, but we have to do it because this is the last one.

We would have successfully gone through every single question, at least unless I missed one. This is from Alyssa Scott, and she says,

I would like to all hear your thoughts. What does backsliding look like biblically?

Not cult -related, but that's an important question. Why don't you guys take a stab at that? Yeah, I'll take a stab at it.

Never really thought about it, but what I can first think of is the parable of the prodigal son, spoiling his inheritance, going out and doing the things he knows he should not be doing, but then realizing who his father is and who his savior is, and running back into the arms of his savior.

I think Jesus gives a great parable of that. I could be 110 % wrong, but that's my stab at it.

Okay. Any thoughts, Jeremiah? Yeah, I would say we are like sheep who have gone astray.

We're sheep. We're dumb. We do dumb stuff sometimes. Thankfully, we have a good shepherd, and if it truly is, the

Lord will discipline those whom he loves. That's why you should not turn away the discipline of the

Lord. So that would be my very super brief explanation because we've been on here for a while. Sure, absolutely.

Yeah, when I think of a backsliding person, I want to make a distinction between someone who is backslidden and someone who is lost.

I do not believe as a Reformed Christian that a Christian can lose their salvation, but I do think that in periods of disobedience, a believer can experience the fatherly displeasure and discipline of God.

And of course, if this person is truly a sheep, this person will be brought back to repentance, but I don't think it's an instance of losing your salvation and then regaining it again.

And that's interesting because when we think in terms of someone who's backsliding, they're kind of being disobedient for a time.

We need to be very careful the conclusions we draw about that person, right? We can't look into the person's heart.

We don't know necessarily the status of that person depending on the nature of their backsliding.

But we should give such a person biblical warning and pray that God uses us as one of the means whereby this person comes to their senses and gets back in accord with the will of God and into a godly pattern of living.

So again, I want to make that distinction. So there's a backslidden person who is still a believer, but is to a certain extent living in disobedience.

And then there's someone who was never saved to begin with. Our job is not to identify which one they are.

Our job is to follow the biblical mandate to call our brothers to repentance as well as people who don't know

Christ to repentance. So those are my thoughts. Well, gentlemen, this has been lots of fun.

It has been an honor to have you guys on and love to have you guys on in the future. I love what you guys are doing.

And I hope to see you guys continue to grow and to encourage and edify people with your content.

So are there any last thoughts or words you'd like to share before we close things out? I just say praise

God. Thank you for having us on. And if we need to stand firm as the people who are growing up in atheistic households are turning to the dead pagan gods while they're trying to resurrect them, we need to be here to let them know the true resurrected king is sitting on his throne.

And that's the one I can bring you peace. So, praise God. Thank you. Jeremiah? I could have said it any better than Andrew could.

I would just really, what Andrew has said. I think I'll just say one thing is that, you know, the world obviously is going nuts and crazy, you know, you think about, who knows?

Apparently there's like crazy things going on with, you know, military moves by China right now and Russia and who knows what's going on with that.

But I remember like during COVID, you know, none of us knew what was going to happen. And I just made a point where I'm just like, you know what?

I'm actually, if I die, I die. But I just want to be faithful where God has me. And I told myself,

I told Andrew, like, you know what? We are going to make an episode every single month.

We're going to make sure an episode comes out every single week in the month of 2020. And that's how we're going to end the year no matter what.

And so I think now, you know, you just be faithful where God has called you and be a light wherever God has called you.

And thankfully, you know, God's been gracious enough to give Andrew and I, you know, this platform, which we don't deserve.

Andrew and I, we weren't looking for this. This was something that's like been in our lap. And, you know, it's a blessing to be here.

We both of us want to be faithful in this endeavor for as long as God allows us to do right.

Excellent. Well, folks, I want to just close this with just a brief thought here. Remember to grow where you are planted, right?

Wherever God has planted you, that's where you're going to grow. And if you continue to grow, God will pluck you out of where you were and place you out where somewhere else he wants you to be.

So don't be discouraged. If you see yourself doing something right where God is, where he has you, make sure you're growing where you've been planted and trust in and trust in him and serve him faithfully.

And God will will use you in mighty ways. Well, Andrew and Jeremiah, thank you so much for coming on, folks.

If you have not checked out the Cultish podcast and YouTube channel, please go over there, check it out, subscribe.

And if you like this discussion, do me a solid press, you know, press the like button, share this and and give a positive review on iTunes.

That's actually super helpful. People don't think I kind of just say that in passing, but it's actually super helpful. So if you like the content here, definitely go and do that.

Thank you so much, guys. That's it for this episode. And everyone who's listening in, thank you so much. Take care and God bless.