The Dark Side of Christianity Part Two - Members Podcast

The Depth of Human Sin and Personal Wickedness

Welcome to the members podcast. We just want to start off by thanking our total access members. We couldn't do what we're doing without you guys. I'm just gonna be straight up. Jimmy and John are chomping at the bit.

So I'm gonna go ahead and let them get right to it. So fellas. Hey, man, let's continue this conversation. This conversation started at dinner.

It really did and and then we we hit the porch and we laughed and played a lot of music and then we regained it. And We were. I mean look you you guys you care more about what we have to say than anybody else in the world.

So there's a side of us where it's almost like hey pull up a chair grab a cup of coffee. Right. And or something else. A bourbon Genitonic exactly. The the conversation on the porch Was was pretty raw.

Mm-hmm, and I'm and I'm gonna be like completely Frank. My heart exploded.

In a good way. That's why we're recording at 11 p .m. It is we can tell our members. Yeah, there's a slate.

Yeah in my basement, which you're probably hearing my water heater at the moment going off work. There's a side of me. Listening to the two of you go back and forth with the frailty. I love that. Not one time.

Not one of you guys. Try to excuse to me your sin. When we had the conversation, you know, I'm a porch. Yeah, you were so embarrassed and horrified by it. But there was a side of it that goes. But without God's grace, why go on.

Sure. Like. What why not go headlong into this if it's not for God's grace, right? And I think this.

What we're really asking people when we talk about this kind of thing what we're really asking of you is. Look, we're just We're just asking you to be honest with yourself. You have to be just be just be real with yourself.

You are far more Wicked yeah, then you could ever imagine. So for example If you guys could know the level of godliness that I had attained before marriage and children Preach it preacher like I had it down has been reading my mail.

Amen. Like y 'all I had it down. I Had the discipline down. I had the battle down. I had the reading down I had the prayer down and then you get married. Yeah, and you know a sinner moves in with another sinner.

And so you get some things exposed to you, but by and large. You know marriage, you know, it pushed me towards. Wow. There's some there's some things in my life that I didn't know were there. But then bros bros our first kid Exposed it all and and here's the thing.

The Darkness of Sin in Marriage and Parenting

Yeah, and I'll just be really Frank is I mean, it's members podcast. Come on. Our first kid was up every 40 to 45 minutes for like the first 13 months of life and not just awake and like just rolling around not cute.

But like awake crying. Yeah, they ain't nothing cute about that. There's nothing like and I'm just gonna be really Frank. I remember watching the news and seeing a story and and this is horrible and tragic and I'm not making light of this at all.

All right, but of a woman Shaking her child, you know to death is awful. Yeah but here is the depth of my wickedness is that I looked at that her in that moment and there was a moment of Compassion of yeah, I'm just sorry there.

There was nobody in your life to help you. Yeah, yeah, but at this and at the same time there is a moment of I've had those thoughts. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean I could say I'm probably not going to say them right now.

But I mean I could say I could say even more extreme thing I mean with respect to even the children piece man, like some of the things that my wife and I have struggled through. They're intense and they're real like you you have thoughts that You could not have imagined that you would ever have no I mean So I recently did a wedding and I think we're all around this table.

We agree that like the most substantial things that we could ever say in a wedding Message or the most substantial things that the Bible says that are relevant to marriage are not found in Ephesians 5.

Necessarily, they're not found in first Peter 3. They're found in just the the grand truths of Scripture. That like the reality is. That you are far worse than you could have ever imagined. So like when you get married and you say, you know I never thought that I would marry somebody who would say that to me.

It's like well, it's like well, why not? I mean you're a sinner or hey, I never thought I'd marry somebody who would do that. It's like well, how many things have you done in your life that you swore you would never do?

That's wrong, man, right like this is what we're talking about. Yeah, it's just this honest. Like let's call it what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and and particularly as pastors, you know. One of the things I'm I'm pretty sensitive to and you know, we live in the social media world.

Mm-hmm. It seems like every week you're hearing of a new pastor falling. Yeah, and You're hearing and and I remember when I when I first started ministry those things would I Wow, I mean they would just blow my mind.

And i've come to the place and and and some people might interpret this as you know, you're just insensitive. Or you've been desensitized to it. Yeah, but I think moving into this reformed confessional Mindset has helped me to see that i'm not i'm not desensitized.

Pastors, Falling Leaders, and Not Being Surprised by Sin

Yeah, but rather.

I'm, i'm just not surprised. And that's hard and that's that is so hard. I I you know, it's I get we get text. I know you guys do we get text up. Did you hear about. Did you hear about. Oh, yeah, we heard?

Oh, yeah, or just get asked walk into a service on sunday like hey, let's talk about yeah that.

Yeah I'll be. I look I have compassion towards the pastors who have been Unwise with their gifts. Sure. Um, I don't. I'm not excusing it. It's not appropriate. It's not wise. No, they made bad decisions.

They made simple decisions. They gave in to temptations. Sure. Um, I look at that and go. Don't judge or else there go. I.

Yeah, absolutely. We're not for the grace of god. There go. I right right and i'm not saying okay.

I'm gonna look at their mistakes and then I won't make those mistakes. Listen I think the apostle paul looked a lot of his mistakes. And went man, I wish if I could do that if I could do that if I could do that again.

I would do it differently. Well, I mean so Galatians 6 1 yeah when Your brother is caught in sin like ensnared in sin. Yeah. Right those who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness keeping watch on yourselves lest you to Fall right and and so I mean they're included in that verse is a lot of what we're talking about right now.

That hey people are caught in sin therefore like compassion is the order of the day. We should seek to restore people in a spirit of gentleness and we should be aware of our own frames because We are capable of falling the exact same way.

Yeah, and so yeah, it's a good thing that we would be mindful of that. Yeah at our church we were going over john 10. You know, jesus is the good shepherd and one of the things that struck me there. Uh, you know doing a little bit more research into that passage.

When jesus says all that came before me are thieves and robbers. All yeah, yeah, and and and he's really he's he's talking about. You know all the all the figures of christ yeah that came before him. Yeah, jesus thief and robber.

Yeah, when ezekiel says the same thing obviously in ezekiel 34, right? Right the shepherd. Yeah. Yeah God says I'm gonna shepherd my people exactly because everybody else. Yeah, and so is corrupt. Ultimately and and in light of the pastoral ministry conversation that we're talking about here.

This is why it's so important for us to understand our role rightly. That we you know first peter 5. The chief shepherd. Yeah when the chief shepherd appears we're merely under shepherds and I think the You know kind of the the typical and I I won't even say You know the evangelical understanding of ministry because this kind of can span all traditions.

Yeah, you know is that money power. Dare I say sex success sure, you know those things are not Unattractive just because we're in the ministry. Absolutely not true. Which is why I want to pick up on something that we've alluded to a couple of times once in the regular podcast once even now.

That kind of removal of the shock factor that removal of the surprise piece. Yeah, so I'm happy to say this now. We've got a primer coming out. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know it's out. Well, I guess it is by this point.

It's out. It's available faith versus faithfulness. Unrest. Yeah, go get it. Go read that thing. Get you some. Yeah, we worked hard together To to produce that and we hope we hope it's helpful to people.

Well, I know that we sent that out to a number of people for feedback. And I know i'm happy to say in one of the sections that that I wrote I was talking about this like how a biblical understanding a robust understanding of sin.

It it allows us to not be surprised. Yeah when other christians fall even in heinous ways. And I I think originally I had some kind of line in there I I don't know and maybe it was pretty provocative not sure but some of the feedback we got is like well.

A Robust Doctrine of Sin and the Hope of Sanctification

Hey, I think if like a very prominent Influential say it evangelical leader. Yeah.

Matt Chandler, okay. So the feedback was okay. So bro, his illustration was helpful.

It was very helpful. It was very helpful and i'm having to talk about this so he's like The feedback we got from this one brother is helpful because it calls me and us to kind of get back. He's a pastor.

Yeah, he's like hey look man, like I I hear what you're saying but I I think that if matt chandler like murdered somebody tomorrow, you'd be shocked and At the risk of sounding like you said like desensitized or calloused or something which I don't think that I am I literally was looking at that feedback and I was like I understand what this brother's saying and I want to make some adjustments To what i've written here, but I can honestly say that I would not be surprised as to like how that might happen.

Right, like our hearts are that jacked up? Yeah, and like my desires and our thoughts our Just passions are so intense and so dark at times and so corrupt That we are capable like ordinary christians are capable of extraordinary.

Evil and we got to own that. Yeah, we do which is scary to people to hear. It's scary. But yeah, it's true.

Yeah, how many people in david's day? Oh, man.

God's anointed people do say though. They were without the spirit. So let's transition to acts though. Um peter Bright getting rebuked by paul sure for requiring circumcision. That's right.

But how many how many people in david's day going back. And let's just be clear david god's anointed one. Right. Who had the spirit on him, right? Yeah, how many people would say? You know.

Oh david wouldn't he wouldn't commit murder. Well, we already mentioned this in the podcast. Read first corinthians. And here's I. I think it's important for us to hear to say we aren't leaving you without hope like oh christianity is Demarched like you are without hope.

That's right. We're not at all I I think if anything if you could hear us say anything. This is why the church And god's organization of approved elders and the ordinary means which is preaching of his word.

The lord's table and baptism are designed to bring the weary broken sinner back and saying listen.

There is hope outside of yourself. Amen, and god will do it. I mean, this is why I want to I want to go somewhere else just one second to pick up on what you said john, but this is why it's so critical that we Herald, you know, not only christ, but we help people understand that their sanctification our sanctification Is as certain as our justification and our glorification because of the holy spirit of god.

Yeah, who dwells in us who will complete the good work? He's begun who will conform us in the image of christ. He who called you is faithful. He will surely do it. Like that's the hope right and so no we're not saying that like christianity is a sham.

That's not at all what we're saying. But I just want to be really clear as a pastor like you talk about first corinthians I get really worked up when I get the kind of pious types in our context to come in talking about man.

We got to go back to the days of the early church when it When it was when it was grand and glorious and golden and i'm like i'm like you bro I'm, like have you read the new testament actually because a mess it was a disaster.

Well, and and even even like you're talking about the letters to the corinthians and others I'm, like you clearly have not thought much about the church in corinth because you talk about the early church the apostate ephesian church.

Seriously, it's like I mean have you read have you read revelation two and three? Yeah, you know like you talk about the early church as though it was just this perfect like holy grail Spirit-fest right and i'm like man it it is it was messed up and I think that you Sort of shackling the church of our era with this burden that we can't bear like that.

We're supposed to somehow be near perfect. Yeah is absolutely insane right now like read your bible. Yeah, we well, but here's the problem though. We do. And we look at the old testament and say wow what a bunch of jacked up weirdos.

And then we think the new testament is full of all these heroes. Oh my god, and i'm like no no no no in the grand Redemptive historical view of scripture. Yeah, what we see is that in the old testament?

It's groaning it's groaning for Redemption to be accomplished. There is one faithful. That's right. It's like it's like the old testament. Yeah, the old testament makes jesus obvious when he shows up because it's like thank god right that he has come.

The one who actually has fulfilled the law. What's the first thing said of him when he shows up on the scene by john the baptist? Yeah, behold the lamb of god who takes away the sins of the world.

My encouragement to you is go read the first five books of the bible and if you don't walk away going. I'm, not sure humanity has figured this out, right? Right, but this is why you can't go. You can't humanity can't go three chapters Without there being a promise that someone's going to come fix what humanity completely destroyed.

Genesis 3 15. Yeah, and for the rest of the bible, it's like he one day The fixer's coming, you know, and it's not only the fixer. It's the one who makes all things new. That's right. Right not not fix all things new. That's right.

And that's where we say listen actually Christianity is an epic ride. To look at the disaster of humanity and the glory of jesus. So the encouragement for me, I actually chuckle I go man. We humans are so foolish to think We actually can produce something that is worthy.

Sure, and when you read the bible you go. Oh, no. You know as jimmy says no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

It's not gonna happen. No, that's right. And so I think one of the way One of the ways that pastorally you work through this with people is and I believe I might even heard this on this podcast is the idea of When we're sitting down with people It's the idea of look i'm just gonna assume That you're a mess, which is not dark.

No, and and i'm not saying You know, you're you're cheating on your wife. You're an alcoholic not saying i'm assuming not assuming the worst. Yeah, or impugning your motivations, but what I am saying is hey as your pastor.

Yeah part of my commitment to you Is to keep calling you to christ. And the day that maybe you do make a mess of your life I'm, not going to come at you, but I can't believe you did that. Yeah, right.

Which is a congregant you go. Well, at least my pastor isn't expecting me better than what I am.

Right. Yeah, and this is this is how we can free people from like this nonsense. Like we practically in the evangelical church sometimes. Talk like we can change our own hearts. Like if we just if we just keep you know Doing this and we're diligent enough and we try hard enough and we muster it up or whatever.

It's almost like we can change our own heart. How are you posturing your heart? It's it's absolute lunacy right where it's like. This is maybe teeing up something. We're not even talking about this now.

But we got more to say in future podcasts like man the whole sanctification debate. I'm, just like look answer me this question. Can you change your own heart or not? That's right, baby.

Come on, and that's a tricky question depending on who's listening. Yeah. No, it's true. That's true. And and so again. We're just saying that. Look man. The spirit of god is the one and the answer that is no.

The answer of course is no. If you go read galatians Three your only conclusion is you don't change your own. No, you don't. It's not the law. Absolutely not.

The Church, Sanctification, and Hope Outside of Ourselves

We will guys this has been a good conversation. Just want to say thank you again. To our members and we. I know the three of us are really excited about the future of theocast. We trust and hope that you are too.

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