January 19, 2021 Show with Ernie Springer, Dr. Joel Yeager, & Dr. Dan O’Roark on “Coronavirus & Leadership of the Church” (Part 2)

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 19th day of January, 2021, and I think that today's program is going to be one of those most timely and important programs for pastors and every

Christian, for that matter, to listen to, listen to very carefully, and take notes, and spread the word about.

This is going to be part two of an interview that we started in November, I believe it was, and it is on the theme,

Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, a sacred trust broken, and I have the authors with us today to discuss this book,

Ernie Springer, Dr. Joel Yeager, and Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke. Ernie Springer is founder of Old Paths Publications.

Dr. Joel Yeager is founder and operator of Heritage Family Health P .C. in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania.

He's also a diplomat of the American Board of Family Medicine, and a contributor to the

Second Opinion Project, and we also have Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke of Ballad CVA Heart Institute in Johnson City, Tennessee, who is a diplomat of the

American Osteopathic Board of Internal Medicine and Cardiology, and diplomat of the

Certification Board of Nuclear Cardiology, and a diplomat of the National Board of Echocardiography, and serves as a fellow of the

American College of Cardiology, and as I said, today is part two of Coronavirus and the

Leadership of the Christian Church, a sacred trust broken, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you three men back to Our Interrupted Zion Radio.

Thank you, Craig. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. First of all, let me give out our email address immediately for our listeners who might have questions on this very vital and timely topic.

It is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Ernie, since you are a contributor to this book and the editor of it, just let me get some background on this book.

All three of you, if I'm not mistaken, are theologically reformed and members of Presbyterian churches, am

I not correct? Yes, that is correct. In fact, all members of the

PCA, Presbyterian Church in America. Okay, and for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with the

PCA, it is known to be a conservative confessional and reformed denomination.

It is not to be confused with the PCUSA, which has become a very liberal and, dare

I say, apostate denomination, although there is a remnant of biblically faithful pastors and members of the

PCUSA. In fact, there is a Presbyterian layman magazine or newspaper that is produced by conservative

Bible -believing evangelicals within the PCUSA, but for the most part, it has become apostate and we are delighted that there are a number of biblically faithful Presbyterian denominations that are still in existence with us.

So, before we go on to Dr. Yeager and Dr.

O 'Rourke, if you could, Ernie, also let us know what compelled you to have this book written to begin with.

Well, I think back in March, we saw the development and concerns being expressed about the coronavirus coming from government, coming from health agencies, and even coming from individuals, leaders within the church.

It became apparent to me that things might change in how churches would go about handling matters, simply to be safe out of concern for people, but it created a concern in my mind that, would the

Scripture be the first avenue of information sought to decide how the church should be led in this environment that we're finding ourselves in?

After seeing that certain precautions were taken to keep things sterile and distanced and so forth,

I sought to commend our own church for that, and also encouraged them not to be influenced by the government in their decisions.

The next Sunday, the church was closed, and we did not have public worship any longer.

I should say that churches did, and many churches did, not just ours, provide for live streaming and other avenues of communication, and while those are helpful and the

Word of God is still heard and preached upon, it still is not, in my opinion, the public worship that Scripture commands.

So, I began to engage in discussion about this with my church and with others, and it seemed to me that things were just not getting better or really following the direction that they should.

So, somewhere down the road, I came in contact with Dr. Yeager and Dr.

O 'Rourke and found that they had similar ideas and sympathies about this situation.

So, as we began to just communicate and fellowship, if you will, online with our views and thoughts, it occurred to me that we probably should try to put some of our writings, some of which we had all done independently of one another, into a book format, and hence the book

Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Church. Well, let me start now with Dr.

Joel Yeager. I think that we should address masks and vaccines in this segment, since masks don't appear to be going away, and since the vaccine is being pushed.

And this is an area, both of these areas, in fact, all of these areas that are connected with the

Coronavirus when government gets involved, when mandates get involved, when the requirement of masks, the requirement of distancing, the requirement of shutting down churches, at least temporarily, and businesses, this has really divided the church.

I have actually been very surprised on how sharply it has divided many in the same denomination.

Sometimes there is strong disagreement within the same congregations.

This has caused a church split, at least one. I'm sure there are many others that I'm not aware of, but there has been a church split that I know of over this issue, especially over the mask mandate issue.

So this is a troubling test for the church in the 21st century to see many disagreements and harsh disagreements that have divided brethren.

But let's start with the mask issue,

Dr. Yeager. And I know we brought this up in our last interview, but since it's such a vital aspect of our discussion and of what's going on in the world, what are your thoughts on masks?

Right, well, thanks for that question, certainly a vital one. It's interesting because just about a minute's drive from our office is a big billboard, which was paid for by coronavirus money given to our county,

Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, as part of the federal stimulus package. And it has a big picture, of course, of someone with a mask.

And it has the caption, my mask protects you, your mask protects me.

And the unfortunate thing is, while that sounds nice, it's essentially rooted in two untruths.

And I'll just be frank and call them untruths, or we can even be more bold and call them lies. And I would commend our book.

There's a section in chapter two, I believe it is, one of the two chapters that I did that walks through this in detail.

So I don't want to overwhelm the audience with technicalities. But if I can broadly talk about the two lies, the first lie being that masks are effective.

That's what we hear all the time. That's, of course, the reason why churches require masks in hallways and public spaces, et cetera.

Businesses require masks. And, you know, let me say up front, I understand that businesses are sometimes under the constraint of their license and needing to stay open to serve the public.

So I guess I would have perhaps some sympathy for businesses because they're actually a place of commerce.

I think when it comes to the church, though, that's an entirely different aspect, and I would feel much differently about churches requiring masks.

But back to the first lie, masks are effective. We have at least a decade, probably more, but at least a decade of research on masks showing the relative, not relative, showing the essential ineffectiveness of masks in terms of preventing spread of disease, particularly the spread of viral diseases.

Masks have even been questioned in dental practices. Masks have actually been studied in operating rooms and whether or not surgeons wearing masks have any bearing on surgical site infections.

And the bottom line is they actually don't. Again, I'm not recommending that dentists stop wearing masks or that surgeons stop wearing masks.

But what I can say is, quoting a 40 -year neurosurgeon veteran who said, up until March, we never even considered, we, that is surgeons,

I'm not a surgeon, I'm a family doctor, but she said, we, as surgeons, never even considered that masks are effective in terms of preventing a viral transmission because we know that they're not.

So you can read that part of the chapter in terms of all the technicalities. I think sometimes just looking at some simple facts is helpful.

And I think probably the best fact that just helps to solidify it in my mind and in the minds of the patients that I interact with is, if you look at the one approved indication for a surgical

N95 mask, well, that's the best mask in the world, essentially. That's a fitted, properly fitted, unshaven face surgical mask.

It's approved to stop one organism and one organism only, and that's tuberculosis.

You can actually find that information by simply going to the 3M, that's the company that makes the

N95 surgical mask. You can find their data sheet and you can see that it's been approved by the

CDC to stop mycobacterium tuberculosis. Well, if you actually look up the size of that organism, it's somewhere around 0 .5

microns. Well, coronavirus is somewhere between 0 .1 and 0 .2, probably average about 0 .125

microns. So that's somewhere between three to five times smaller than the filtering capability of the best mask in the world.

So in my practice, we have lots of tradesmen, lots of agricultural people who may not have advanced degrees, but they have an awful lot of common sense.

And one of my young patients said to me when we were discussing this, he said, well, then that's like expecting a chain link fence to stop a mosquito.

And I said, that is essentially the case. That's a very, very good descriptor.

So that's just simple science. It's not real complicated. That's just the evidence.

And we have all sorts of studies, randomized controlled trial studies, that have been done over the past decade that all show that.

And I outline that in Chapter 2. So that's really one of the first slides that is borne out by that sign just down the roof in my office.

And then the second one. So I mean, the interesting thing is I think we all knew that, we being the health professions.

The CDC knew that. The World Health Organization knew that. American Medical Association knew that.

And they all had physician statements prior to March that recommended healthy people not wear masks because we knew they weren't effective.

So then there had to be a subtle shift since that wasn't really verifiable.

And that leads to the second lie. The second lie is that asymptomatic people, that is people who are not sick, healthy people, if you will, are probably spreaders of this disease.

So since we knew that masks didn't actually work, then we had to come up with a second lie to justify and validate that.

And that is, well, I'm probably actually passing this coronavirus on to you, even as I sit here and speak, even though I have no symptoms.

And if you go back to the billboard, my mask protects you, your mask protects me, is exactly what that is based on.

And Bill Gates actually wrote an editorial in the New England Journal of Medicine somewhere around February or March of last year where he really talked about that with great evidence of truth, so to speak.

When I actually reviewed his resources, the actual scientists who he was quoting were much, much, much less confident in there being asymptomatic transmission.

They used words like probably, possibly, might, we think, et cetera.

So that's, broadly speaking, the two lies. Masks are effective, and second of all, that we are all asymptomatic spreaders, both of which are simply not true.

So that's the mask issue in a nutshell. Well, why is it, do you think, that there are scientists over and over and over again and physicians on the media, even on Fox News, which would be one of the more conservative networks, who are saying that we should be wearing masks and that masks save lives?

And are these doctors and scientists deceived?

Are they liars? I mean, obviously, you don't know these people necessarily individually and personally, but can a person who has been a trained scientist, physician, especially an immunologist, be wrong about this and support the wearing of masks to prevent the spread of the coronavirus?

Well, that's a great question, and it seems like to answer that I have to implicate people.

I think, broadly speaking, I don't see how anyone can look at the evidence objectively and with intellectual honesty and come away and say, well, it actually does help because a decade's worth of information showed that it doesn't.

So I think that highlights a couple of issues. One is a lot of these people are fighting, quote, new studies which show that, for example, if X number of Americans, if all

Americans wore masks, say, for the next two weeks, we would save X number of lives. Unfortunately, those studies have never been done, even though it sounds like they have been.

What they're referring to is observational studies where observing a population and making a hypothetical guess or making an observation.

That's very different than the gold standard in medicine, which is a randomized, controlled, double -blinded, placebo -controlled trial.

They're citing observational studies, and many of them are actually computer mathematically generated studies, which, again, are hypothetical.

They're not actually in the real world. So I think there is a fair degree of intellectual dishonesty.

That's been a sad state of affairs for me as a physician, and I think in Chapter 5

I referenced this when I talk about a professional betrayal because I think that's what our profession is doing to itself.

It's actually betraying itself, and I think that will come back to bite us in the sense that the public is catching on to, this doesn't add up, and so it's going to actually make it more difficult to practice good medicine.

I already see that in childhood vaccinations, for example. I've had parents who've never questioned childhood vaccinations.

Now, with the whole COVID -19 narrative and epidemic, they're questioning immunizations, generally speaking.

So that's just one example, and I think sort of the paternalistic spirit of medicine,

I'm the doctor, I know best, is what's essentially being used to teach this.

So there is a huge degree of intellectual dishonesty, and I think the second thing, if I was an educator,

I would really be emphasizing this to students and those in training. Doctors have steered away, in my opinion today, from the classically trained person who is able to look at things and put everything together and make a logical deduction.

Instead, doctors are much, much more prone today to follow algorithms.

I'll give you an example. I subscribe to a site called UpToDate, and I go to it probably on a daily basis.

It's exactly that. It's a subscription website for physicians that's up to date with every medical topic under the sun.

It's very nice whenever I can find an algorithm. So let's just say someone comes with a thyroid nodule or a pulmonary nodule.

It's like, well, how do I treat this? Well, if you can find a nice flow chart that's a nice algorithm, you follow down this pathway, and if this is true, then you go to the left or you go to the right.

And those are helpful. I'm not disputing the effectiveness of an algorithm, but I see physicians today thinking algorithmically rather than systemically.

And so the CDC now gives a complete opposite narrative that they gave nine months ago, and now everyone is just simply regurgitating that.

It's almost like regurgitated information that's not been processed, it's not been sorted out, it doesn't pass intellectual muster, and from an educational standpoint, that's a sad state of affairs when a profession and then a society falls into that.

Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke, since you are a physician as well, if you could add your own two cents into the conversation, especially in regard to your thoughts on masks right now, and we'll eventually very soon,

God willing, move into the subject of vaccines. But first of all,

I believe from our last program, and this would make perfect sense, that neither of you who are physicians personally require patients to wear masks, or at least

I know that in the case of the physician involved in this discussion who has his own practice, you don't.

But if you could, pick up where I left off there. Yeah, thanks for the question, Chris. In my practice,

I don't own my practice, I'm employed by a large health system, so masks are required by both provider and patient.

There are times, though, when we can distance and remove the mask. I have a number of elderly patients, and quite frankly, they cannot hear me when

I'm trying to speak to them from behind a mask. And they are most welcoming to that time when

I can speak clearly to them, because as a cardiologist, we often speak of very, very serious matters.

As far as the specifics of the mask go, I don't have a lot to add to what Joel said. He has an outstanding section in the book on this, as he mentioned.

Just to add my point of view to a few specific topics, as far as the question you had as to why are all these physicians and scientists saying what they're saying, another thing that we absolutely have to take into account is what we might call conflict of interest.

Unfortunately, the government has taken over massive amounts of funding for research, and obviously there is a narrative that they wish to push forward, and many people are fearful.

I mean, it is irrefutable that we now live in a late -cancel culture, and I think at least in part some of these professionals just feel very nervous about going against the narrative.

The other thing is really a spiritual aspect. While you were all talking,

I pulled up this verse from Proverbs chapter 14, starting with verse 15. The simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to its steps.

One who is wise is cautious and turns away from evil, but a fool is reckless and careless.

And basically, as we have all witnessed over the last many decades, a certain post -modernism has come over our culture.

Again, that's because of the abandonment of the Christian faith. We know from Scripture that we are to be salt and light.

We know that we are to expose the darkness, and by really explicit language, this tells us that we can know truth.

That does not mean that we have to have complete understanding of every facet of that truth, but as Dr.

Yeager pointed out, you read this literature on masking, and it just totally refutes the narrative that is out there.

The last thing I'll say is the first paper that I actually found on masking was from, I believe, 1924, and they were looking at masking that was done during the

Spanish flu pandemic, and even back then they concluded that it did not work. So those are my comments on masking.

Great. Well, we're going to go to our first break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. And I can understand topics like those we are discussing today that have divided brothers and sisters in Christ and families and so on so sharply.

I can understand someone wanting to remain anonymous, but if it's just a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Don't go away. We are going to be right back after these messages with more on this very vital topic, coronavirus and the leadership of the

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We are now back with our discussion today on the coronavirus.

This is part two of a discussion that we began in November with Ernie Springer, Dr.

Joel Yeager, and Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke on the subject of the book that all three of them have written together,

Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, The Sacred Trust Broken. All three of the authors are

Christians and theologically reformed Christians and members of conservative Bible -believing

Presbyterian churches. If you have a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Well, let's move on to vaccines.

This is another issue that divides, sharply divides, brothers and sisters in Christ.

It divides even those that are in either wing of political activity or thought or ideology, both leftists and those who are on the right.

Not only disagree with each other on different sides of the aisle or the end of the spectrum, but they disagree with those that share their ideology.

I know conservatives who were very eager to promote the vaccines for the

Coronavirus as being safe and that it is dangerous and irresponsible to reject them.

And a lot of it was to not let a victory and an accomplishment be stripped away from President Trump.

So this would have been particularly the view of many on his side who have voted for him and support him.

But you also have very conservative Christians who may have even supported

Donald Trump and may have been opposed to all efforts to undermine his presidency.

But where they draw the line, many of these conservative folks, is the issue of vaccinations and especially government mandated vaccinations.

So let me speak first of all to Dan O 'Rourke on this.

Just tell me your thoughts on what you have heard, what you know about the vaccinations that are now available for folks who are fearful of getting the

Coronavirus. Well, thank you for that very important question, Chris. I'll start by saying I'm going to speak more broadly to the issue.

There is certainly some science that could be reviewed. But I'm going to approach this question from an issue of jurisdictionalism.

And I covered that topic, the broad topic of jurisdictionalism in Chapter 4 of the book. And basically this is a

Christian liberty issue. Christians are certainly free to take the vaccine if they so desire.

Christians are also free not to take the vaccine. And that is rooted in the premise that the primary duty of promoting one's health and safety falls to the individual and the family.

It is really not the church's duty to promote my health and safety. It is certainly not the state's duty to promote my health and safety.

And the church and the state really can only interfere in these things when a clear -cut violation of law of God has occurred.

Let me clarify and explain that. For example, let's say I have active tuberculosis and I refuse therapy.

As Joel pointed out, there are masks that are very effective at constraining the microorganism that causes

TB. I refuse to wear the mask. I go around coughing on people. Certainly then the church would say, well, you know, you are definitely risking someone's life.

But we have to remember that vaccines are a very unique intervention in medicine in that we are not treating an active disease with a vaccine.

We are hoping to prevent one. And we have to realize that in many cases the patient will never encounter the organism in question, regardless of which vaccines we are talking about.

The patient is only at hypothetical risk for contracting the disease.

So in the case of the coronavirus, there are many people that will not contract the disease.

There are many people who may become infected asymptomatically. But we know from very reliable literature that those people do not contribute in any meaningful way to the spread.

And those people, of course, are at very, very low risk of death. So for other jurisdictions to interfere in that decision -making would be to unlawfully bind the conscience.

So basically, my take on that would be that the individual and the family makes that decision.

Now, I would also add, though, even though it is not in my opinion a sin to take a vaccine, it may not be the wise course of action.

Specifically related to the various vaccines that are available, without getting into any real details of how they work, at this point in time, these vaccines were produced very, very quickly.

By way of reference, up until this point, the shortest timeframe for a vaccine to be approved by the

Food and Drug Administration here in the United States was 4 .7 years. And that was the mumps vaccine a number of decades ago.

Most vaccines take about 7 to 10 years to be developed. And the fact that this was developed in less than a year is actually quite alarming to me.

By definition, shortcuts had to be taken. And indeed, the most significant shortcut taken was that of the lack of animal testing.

And to skip animal testing for a vaccine that really uses a unique mechanism of action that is totally different than the typical childhood vaccine you take or a tetanus shot, this works through a manipulation of the genetic system.

So in that point, there are many unknown. There has been a condition called antibody -dependent enhancement when they try to develop other coronavirus vaccines, whereby the body becomes primed.

And when it is exposed again to a coronavirus in nature, the body can immunologically overreact.

And many times, this has caused critical illness in humans and can cause death. And in animal studies, they tried to develop a vaccine for SARS -1, which was the original.

We're dealing with what's called SARS -2 now with COVID -19. With SARS -1, they tried to develop a vaccine and it stopped in its tracks because of massive amounts of morbidity and mortality in the test groups.

So to sum up, this is an issue of jurisdictionalism. And secondly, from an aspect of wisdom and prudence,

I really believe that this vaccine has been woefully under -tested. And we have really no idea of the long -term consequences.

And it's too early to know that for certain. Now, there have even been rumors of people who have gotten very ill and died from taking this vaccine.

Can you verify any of those rumors? Yes, that is true.

One report was in the mainstream media. I did intensive research, and it is a true statement.

There was a physician, an obstetrician, about 56 years old in Florida, who took the vaccine right before Christmas.

About three to four days after he took the vaccine, he noticed some purplish spots on his palms and soles of his feet.

Being a fairly perceptive perception, he was concerned about a blood disorder.

He went to the hospital, and his platelet count was zero. The normal platelet count is 150 ,000 to 400 ,000.

His was zero. And the doctors had determined that he had developed an acute idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, and that is an autoimmune phenomenon, whereby his body attacked his own platelets and destroyed all of them.

Sadly, they did everything humanly possible to help him. One heroic treatment would be to take the spleen out, but because he had no platelets, of course, the surgical risk of hemorrhage was very high, but they were planning on doing that as a last resort.

But before the surgery could be carried out, he died of a brain hemorrhage. Basically, while one case does not absolutely prove cause and effect, here is a man who had no underlying health conditions, was otherwise very healthy, took a vaccine, which by definition does genetically modify you in a certain sense, and does induce autoimmunity, and that he developed a very, very severe autoimmunity.

So while I would be very cautious to say that I am absolutely saying that the vaccine caused it, prudence and ethics, in my mind, or our position on that should be, the vaccine caused it until proven otherwise.

The take that is being taken by the manufacturers and our government agencies is that the vaccine did not cause it until proven otherwise, and I think that is a violation of traditional medical ethics.

And how common is it, as far as in the history of vaccinations, for people to die as a result of taking vaccines?

Well, it has been well known. I actually have an old book in my file from 1918, and it was written by a man, and he was decrying the use of smallpox vaccine.

The man clearly recognized the very severe nature of smallpox, probably a 30 % mortality, but in some administrations, the vaccine, as many as 20 or 30 % of the people who took the vaccine actually died as a result of the vaccine.

It is not commonly known, but Jonathan Edwards, a great theologian, died as a result of a smallpox vaccine.

And what many people had recently surmised is, well,

I know that smallpox is very serious, will threaten my life, but I'm willing to take my chances with the actual disease as opposed to the vaccine.

And actually, I think we've been munching into Anna in 1870 or something of that nature.

I'm not sure the dates are quite right, but there were actually vaccine riots in Indiana over this very issue.

There was a smallpox outbreak, and the magistrates mandated vaccines, and people took the riding.

So, this is not to say that vaccines don't play an important role in medical care, but again, they are a medical treatment.

Every medical treatment on earth has potential benefits and also has potential risks.

And that's why the doctrine of informed consent is so vital, because only the individual can decide what his risk tolerance is.

And so, those are some illustrations of serious morbidity and mortality from a vaccine.

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and when we return, we'll have Dr. Joel Yeager and Ernie Springer join in the conversation again to get their thoughts on vaccines and receive any input that they may have on that issue.

If you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarmsen at gmail .com, chrisarmsen at gmail .com.

As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter.

This is the longer than normal break that we have in the show, folks, so please be patient with us. Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program twice a day in a prerecorded format in morning drive, and then in the evening, they require of us a longer break in the middle of our show, because the

FCC requires of them to air local public service announcements and other local things that localize

Grace Life Radio, I'm sorry, that localize Iron Trump and Zion Radio and all their programming to Lake City, Florida.

So therefore, again, please be patient with us. While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

So I'm asking you to use this time wisely. Please write down as much of the information as you can provided by your advertisers.

If you are listening to this on a recording, I understand that you might want to fast forward through the commercial break once in a while.

Perhaps you want to do it every day, but please don't do it every single day, because we need our listeners to hear our advertisers so that they can more frequently and successfully patronize them so that our advertisers want to stick around, because we absolutely positively depend upon our advertisers to exist.

So please patronize our advertisers, and the way that you're going to most frequently and successfully do that is by writing down the information they provide.

And when you can't actually patronize them, when you can't buy their products, use their services, visit their churches, at least contact them and say thank you for sponsoring

Eye, Interpreter's Eye on Radio. If indeed you love the show and you do thank them for sponsoring the show, please tell them that.

And send in your e -mails with questions for our guests today on the coronavirus at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

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Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers in Christian apologetics with evidence for the

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Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

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Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, this is

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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Give the gift of health and don't be a dead end to truth. Here's what

Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio airing live Monday through Friday 4 to 6 p .m.

Eastern Time at IronSharpensIronRadio .com James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the

Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net

That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, New York and the

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Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

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We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com That's solid -ground -books .com

and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget folks, please don't ever forget that solid -ground -books .com

is a vital, a premier, a primary sponsor of this program. We would likely not exist without the financial support we've received from their advertising campaigns.

So please, keep solid -ground -books .com in business so that they keep sponsoring this program and make frequent purchases at solid -ground -books .com

and you're not only going to be doing them a favor and you're not only going to be doing us a favor by keeping an advertiser happy, but you're going to be doing yourself an enormous favor by purchasing books and many books from solid -ground -books .com

because they publish the very finest in Christian literature from a theologically reformed perspective from both the past and the present.

And please, browse through their catalog at solid -ground -books .com if you have a subject or a specific author that you want to investigate to do some searching to see what they have in stock there at solid -ground -books .com.

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So, remember your lost friends and loved ones in addition to your brothers and sisters in Christ and go to solid -ground -books .com

frequently and purchase generously. Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Onzen on Iron Trepans Iron Radio.

Before we return to our guest today and our discussion on the coronavirus we have some important announcements to make.

Mark your calendars for tomorrow because we have Doug Wilson returning to the program.

Even if you may have some serious theological differences with Doug Wilson, I urge you to hear what he has to say on the gods of civil unrest and Jesus mobs.

In fact, this blog article, which is the theme of our discussion with Doug tomorrow, was highly and strongly and passionately recommended to me to discuss on a program with Doug by someone who has been a theological critic of Doug in the past.

Not that he disagrees with Doug on everything, but he certainly has disagreed with him on certain issues.

I'm speaking of my friend Dr. Joseph C. Moorecraft III and his wife, Becky. They both enthusiastically recommended that I invite

Doug on the program to discuss the gods of civil unrest and Jesus mobs, and that will be tomorrow on this program.

Then we are going to be reunited with returning guests, my friend

Pastor Joe Jackowitz of First Love Radio, who livestreams this program every day.

He's also the pastor of Christ Bible Church in Dublin, California.

He is going to be joined by Ryan Denton, and they are going to be discussing Part 2 of a conversation they began with me some weeks back,

Even If None, Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism. That's a book by Ryan Denton, and we will be discussing

Part 2 of that. And then, as you may have heard me mention earlier, on Friday we've got

Jason Garwood returning for the first time on this program, and Jason will be discussing his book,

Health for All of Life, A Medical Manifesto of Hope and Healing for the Nations.

So I hope you tune in Friday as well. Folks, if you love this show and you don't want the show to disappear from the airwaves,

I am pleading with you, please help us. Please go to www .IronTrumpEnzymeRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that. And if you prefer snail mail, some people would rather mail -in checks physically, well, a physical address will appear on the screen when you click support at www .IronTrumpEnzymeRadio

.com. Where you can mail a check made payable to Iron Trump Enzyme Radio. I want to thank all of you who have been faithfully giving month after month to support this program, and I want to thank all of you who have been recently first -time givers.

I just can't express to you in the English language how grateful I am to you, and how grateful to God I am for you.

And so please don't ever think that I take you for granted or take it lightly that you have been helping us survive with your donations.

So I'm urging all of you who have not yet done that, but you enjoy the program nonetheless, please begin joining our benefactors, our generous supporters, our donors by giving us whatever you can afford to give so that we can remain on the air.

Go to www .IronTrumpEnzymeRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. Remember, I don't want anybody siphoning money away from their own giving that they're accustomed to to the local church where they are a member in order to give to Iron Trump Enzyme Radio.

In other words, don't punish your church financially by blessing us financially. And please, don't put your family in further financial peril if you are really struggling to survive.

Those two things are commands of God providing for church and family, providing for my radio show is not a command of God, obviously, but if you love the show, you don't want it to disappear, and you're blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, please help us.

Please go to www .IronTrumpEnzymeRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. Give frequently, give generously, as long as you never forsake the two commands of providing for church and family.

Also, folks, if you are interested in advertising with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. Whatever it is that you want to promote, whether it's an event or a business or a professional practice or a ministry, a church, a parachurch organization, whatever it is, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what

I believe, you don't need to believe exactly as I do, but you need to be promoting something that's compatible with what

I believe. Well, as long as that's the case, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible.

So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, I have a list,

I have lists, plural I should say, of very extensive lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet

Earth. I have already helped many people in our audience from all over the globe find churches sometimes right around the corner from where they live and they didn't even know these churches existed or they didn't know that these churches were biblically sound.

So if you are in that category of being in need of a church, whether it's for yourself, whether it's for a loved one, or perhaps you're just going on vacation or visiting somewhere and you want to have a recommendation for a solid church when you're in that area, wherever it may be, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com I need a church in the subject line.

It's also the email address where you can send in a question for our guests today who would include

Ernie Springer, Dr. Joel Yeager, and Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke as we continue our discussion

Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church is Sacred, Trustbroken. This is part two of a discussion we began in November so we would love to hear from you and we do have a number of listeners already waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

But before I go to any of those listeners, perhaps we could go to...

I'm trying to remember who we left off with. Did we leave off with Dr. O 'Rourke last time? Yes, we did.

Okay, Dr. Yeager, do you have anything to add about the vaccine issue? Just a couple of things.

Dr. O 'Rourke did a great job on that. I was interested in your guest on Friday, Jason Garwood, as he was advertising his book.

He mentioned in there about experimental vaccines and at the point I wanted to emphasize the

Coronavirus vaccine is an experimental vaccine. It's not been fully vetted.

It's not been fully approved. It's operating under the emergency use authorization of the FDA so that makes it experimental by nature.

I would direct listeners who are interested in taking an in -depth look to my office website, www .heritagefamilyhealth

.org. You click on Books and Resources and scroll to the bottom. I have a link in there to a 33 -page white paper on Coronavirus vaccines.

It's not written by me. It's actually written by America's frontline doctors. Some really, really amazing things in there, a lot of which

Dr. O 'Rourke has already touched on. The experimental piece is one very important piece of information people need to know about.

The second thing, just quickly, is I think we talked about this maybe in our previous interview.

It's certainly in the book. COVID -19 has a relatively low infectious fatality rate called an

IFR. If you look at the people who actually die, the opposite of that is the people who actually survive.

In CDC statistics, for people ages 0 to 19, is 99 .997

% survive. Ages 20 to 49 is 99 .98%.

Ages 50 to 69 is 99 .5 % people survive.

Over 70, survival rate is 94 .6, so it does drop. It certainly raises the question of the necessity of a vaccine in something which is so relatively low in terms of fatality rates.

I think one of the things that would frustrate me about church leaders, particularly promoting the vaccine as a

Christian obligation, et cetera, is I would sooner people talk about the amazing ability of our own bodies to create its own immunity in the right circumstances.

Now, granted, people who are older with comorbidities might be in a different category. However, having said that, we talked in the previous segment about deaths associated with this.

There's been quite a few reports about elderly people in nursing homes who previously were healthy who got the coronavirus vaccine and ended up dying.

I think I understand that the country of Norway now is discouraging their elderly population from getting a vaccine because of that.

You know, we talked about side effects, some Bell's palsy, some paralysis that can be associated with the vaccine, possible permanent sterility.

Those are things that are addressed and documented in the white paper that I've mentioned. And one final thing, which

I think is interesting, and honestly, I did not know this prior to doing a little bit of research, but in 1986, the

U .S. Congress passed something called the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act, which basically gives immunity to vaccine manufacturers.

So if you have an adverse event associated with a vaccine, you cannot receive any compensation under that act.

So prior to 1986, there were 11 vaccines available.

Now, since that vaccine, or since that act, there's 53 vaccines available.

The vaccine industry went from a $1 billion industry in 1986 to a $44 billion industry now.

Now, I'm not an anti -vaccine doctor, but I think these statistics need to raise some honest questions about the necessity, and I would urge people, as I always have, this has always been an issue of truth to me, do your research, look into the evidence, and make the decision for yourself.

But I would echo the jurisdictionalism comment that Dr. O 'Rourke has expanded on before.

Great. Can I ask you a question about the moral issue?

I know that you basically all have included something. In fact, maybe we'll start with Ernie this time, since it's been a while since he's spoken.

There is certainly a divide amongst

Christians about the moral aspect of refusing to be vaccinated when it could lead to the widespread physical injury disablement, if you will, and death of others.

And does this ever become a matter when the scientific data becomes so overwhelmingly in favor of a certain vaccine?

I'm not talking about the coronavirus vaccines yet, because obviously none of you think we've reached a point when we could completely trust them or even trust them at all at this point.

But is there ever a point when the scientific community is speaking with such unison, whether they are conservative or from a secular or leftist background, or whether they are even

Christian, and they all seem to be saying the same thing, being on the same page, if you do not take a vaccine, you are being very selfish and neglectful of the lives and safety and well -being of others.

And Ernie, is there ever a time, in your opinion, when this would be a sin for a

Christian to reject and oppose a vaccine that could be preventing the harm and death of others?

Well, of course I cannot speak as a physician, although I continue to be blessed and informed, listening to Dr.

Jaeger and O 'Rourke as they explain things. And I think you almost have to link the matter of the vaccines to every other aspect that's been required and or recommended upon the

Christian in the Church, whether it be the masks or distancing or whatever. And as you mentioned,

Chris, early on, there have been divisions. There have even been, perhaps, Church splits on this matter.

But the coronavirus itself is not what caused the splits or the divisions.

It's the ecclesiastical mandates and lockdowns and requirements that effectively have separated

Church members in at least, I would say, at least three ways. And then

I think I can perhaps answer your question after speaking to this. Physically, first, they've been influenced to keep a distance from one another, while together publicly in God's house, and privately, their fellowship and activities outside of the

Church building, be it small group gatherings, Bible studies, meals, social events, have been limited or even canceled altogether.

Second, mentally, their thinking has become extra -biblical, giving considerations to the directives and conclusions of government and the world's professionals, thereby causing their positions and views to become suspect at best, and at worst, dangerously destructive to the communal fellowship of family, friends, and their brothers and sisters in Christ.

And third, emotionally, they have yielded to ungodly and sinful fear.

They've lost sight of the Savior's words. The promises of God have become a thing distant to them. They've allowed

Satan to rob them of the joy of living and walking in Christ's love and forgiveness. And all of this has compromised, in my opinion, their

Christian testimony to saved and unsaved alike. And because of this lack of faithfulness, their actions really deny what 2

Timothy 1 -7 says, that for God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

So I would make a rather bold statement, I guess, to those who profess saving faith in Jesus Christ, who have fallen into a pit of despair, or to use

John Bunyan's phrase in Pilgrim's Progress, I mean, it's time for them to examine themselves, and perhaps confess and repent, and seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness in this matter.

Ultimately, though, you speak of a moral issue, and I think that's, you know, these things that I just kind of explained get to the heart of morality from the spiritual standpoint.

You know, we have a duty to look to God first in the matters of our

Christian walk in life. And if we're having directives placed upon us, and even the vaccine,

I have to admit, as a layman, you know, I'm not an anti -vaxxer. I mean, I've had a pneumonia vaccine and a shingles vaccine.

I get the flu shot every year. But I am very, very concerned about this vaccine, and there's no way

I'm going to take it. My wife actually works at a hospital, and she's very concerned about it.

Right now, it's not mandatory, but it will be. Let me ask all of you, in fact, let me start with Arnie, what would you require to hear and see for you to take the vaccine?

And then we'll have Dr. Yeager and Dr. O 'Rourke answer the same question. Well, to be honest with you,

I'd probably have to wait and see the results in about five to seven years, maybe. To be honest with you, because I think as Dan O 'Rourke has explained, you know, the normal trial for these things is much more than a year.

And if there are effects, you know, as a result of this, you know, altering one's

DNA or whatever, you know, if it's going to make them more susceptible to other, you know, coronaviruses down the road, if they receive more deaths and that sort of thing,

I mean, you know, I wouldn't even want to dare take it until there's more tests and more evidence through the next few years.

And Joel Yeager? Yeah, I think definitely the safety data would be a huge thing.

A second thing is, and this maybe has been hinted at but not directly stated, there's actually no evidence that the coronavirus vaccine actually prevents you from getting

COVID -19 anyway. People might be shocked to hear me say that, but if you read the white paper

I referenced, it's very clear in there. Even the manufacturing companies, well, as they say, we think it's, you know, so many percent, perhaps 95 % effective.

The question is effective against what? Effective against actually getting coronavirus or effective in helping the symptoms to be less?

So if there is something being marketed and promoted that we're not even certain actually prevents you from getting a vaccine, well, then

I think common sense and intellectual rigor and intellectual honesty would beg of us to ask the question, well, then why would

I do that until there's actually more evidence? And Dr. O 'Rourke?

Yes, I would have a similar view on that. Again, the testing is entirely inadequate at this time, so we don't know the long -term effects, which is very, very important, especially for a vaccine which is based in autoimmunity.

That's a very serious concern. You know, a traditional vaccine, they take a weakened virus and its proteins or they take a killed virus that goes into your body and your body recognizes it's a foreign agent.

In this particular case, your body is being instructed to manufacture the very protein that's to be targeted.

And so the issue of autoimmunity is a very, very grave concern of mine. And as has been mentioned, the only outcome that really matters with any vaccine, quite frankly, is does it reduce death?

Does it reduce hospitalization? You know, from an epidemiological standpoint, many patients who have

COVID -19, they feel lousy for five or six days. But epidemiologically, that is really a non -factor because they recover and then get on with life.

And that gets back to the point of jurisdictionalism. Only the individual and family can determine what the degree of risk is that they're willing to take.

Some people are willing to take these vaccines. Other people are not. But outside agencies have no right or authority to tell us to do so, especially if you look at the risks of various medical treatments, not just vaccines.

As I mentioned earlier, every treatment that we face in this life does carry at least some degree of risk.

People have to be able to accept that for themselves. Okay, well, let's take some listener questions.

We have a first -time questioner. His name is Justin, and he is in Kinston, North Carolina.

He says, first of all, thanks for your ministry. I really enjoy the show.

My question is this. There is so much information and misinformation out there about the vaccine.

Do any of your guests have reputable sources that recommend to help those who are seeking to make an informed decision about getting the vaccine?

Well, obviously, everyone on this program has been very cautious about even considering having the vaccine yet, and we just heard that it really – there's nothing that proves that it even prevents the coronavirus.

But I guess the best way for you men to answer the question is, you know, if Justin is telling his friends and family, oh,

I heard these guys on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, they might not really care about that.

So do you have any specific resources that you can recommend people go to about specifically the question he asked about getting the vaccine?

And we'll start with Dr. Yeager. Well, I would, again, recommend the white paper put out by America's Frontline Doctors, available on our website, also available on americasfrontlinedoctors .com.

And your website again is? It's heritagefamilyhealth .org. Okay. And the title of the paper is

America's Frontline Doctors' White Paper on Experimental Vaccines for COVID -19. And this was put together by a group of physicians.

All of them are clinicians. And I don't sense any anti -vaccination bias in that.

A lot of things that are, you know, opposing vaccines come from an anti -vaccination bias.

That is not the bias from which this paper is written. And it's not even necessarily a bias against the type of vaccine that it is, called a messenger

RNA, which we won't go into the details of that. It's explained in the paper. But, again, the cautions about the lack of time, the lack of evidence, the lack of data, the necessity of the vaccine, et cetera.

It is a pretty long read. It's 33 pages. I'd recommend you print it out. Sit down with a red pen and a highlighter, and just walk your way through it.

Again, information is powerful, and I think this is a good source of information. Dr. O 'Rourke, do you have anything to add?

Yes, sir. I have a paper that I just pulled up here. It was written by Dr. Wolfgang Lodarg and Michael Yeadon.

They are in Europe. Dr. Yeadon had worked at Pfizer for many years, so he certainly has been a supporter of and developer of vaccines.

But, in essence, what these men did is they petitioned the European Medicines Agency, and that is the

European equivalent of the FDA. And, basically, they urged them to stop the vaccine trials.

This paper, if you Google their names, Yeadon, Y -E -A -D -O -N, Wolfgang, Lodarg, W -O -D -A -R -G, and just type into Google and petition the

European Medicines Agency, I had no trouble finding it. But it's a very detailed discussion and really raises a lot of the points that we have raised here, and they have evidence base for it.

And I found that to be a very compelling paper. It's a reason not to partake in the vaccine at this time.

And, Ernie, anything to add? Well, I think I'll just leave it with the two doctors.

I think they did a great job on that. Great. Well, Justin, thanks so much for your question. And please give us your full mailing address in North Carolina because you have won a free copy of Coronavirus and the

Leadership of the Christian Church by our guest today. And also, you have won, since you're a first -time questioner, a brand -new

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB at nasbible .com.

And also, you'll be receiving both the book and the Bible by CVBBS .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. CVBBS .com, a sponsor of this program. We ship out all of our winners in our audience, the books and Bibles and other things that they win when they submit questions to guests.

So thank you so much for participating. We have an anonymous listener, an anonymous listener who says,

I have been told by close family members and friends that I am a nut for sharing some of the views that you have expressed today.

And not only a nut, but a dangerous nut. I was wondering if you have any familiarity with a woman that I think is a breath of fresh air, who

I have sat riveted watching her videos, who is a very highly recognized immunologist and scientist named

Professor Dolores Cahill. She is with the Irish Freedom Party in Ireland, and I first heard about Ms.

Cahill from a friend who lives in Ireland. Do you have any thoughts on her?

Do you know about her? Should I recommend others watch her videos and read what she has to say?

And I'll start with Ernie. Do you know about this woman, Dolores Cahill? It's not really coming to mind, although there have been a lot of various YouTube videos and other things floating around that may be one of the names that I saw.

But again, even if it is one that I may have seen or listened to, a lot of what is said seems to resonate with some of the same concerns that I have, and perhaps this anonymous listener as well.

But to really break down the matters of medicine and testing and so forth,

I would defer to the doctors on that. Dr. O 'Rourke, have you heard of this scientist,

Professor Dolores Cahill? Yes, I have, and I have had the chance to view some of her videos, and they seem to be reasonably rounded in scientific discourse.

I've not listened to everything she said, and this is a bit of a disclaimer. I could not say that I could endorse everything anyone says, for that matter, but it does seem to be reasonable.

But again, that is really one of the disturbing issues of this entire paradigm, is it seems that whether or not

Dr. Cahill is completely 100 % accurate in what she says, we do need to hear other voices.

There seems to be a notion in this paradigm where we want to suppress what other people say, and sadly, the questioner brought up how the family member said, well, you are a nut.

Well, that is basically what's called ad hominem, and that does not deal with the arguments of a person who is making a case for something, and that is a form of a logical fallacy, and we unfortunately see a lot of ad hominem going around.

Dr. Cahill is the illustration here. If she states something that does not seem to be correct, then instead of calling people names, we should try to search down other research to show why that she's in here.

So that would be my point on this topic. And Dr. Yeager?

Honestly, I have not heard of her name. I just pulled her up here while we're listening, so I can't speak beyond what was already said about that.

Okay. Well, thank you, Anonymous, and please, obviously, we won't divulge your personal information on the air, so please just send me an email with your full name and your full mailing address, because you have also won a free copy of the book we are addressing today by our guests,

Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church of Sacred Trust, Bergen, and if you're a first -time questioner, you'll also get a

Bible, so let us know whether this is the first time you're writing in. We have

John in Bangor, Maine, who has a question. And John in Bangor, Maine, asks,

I keep hearing about PCR testing. What exactly does that mean?

And that's P as in Peter, C as in Charlie, R as in Robert. PCR testing. And Dr.

Yeager? If you don't mind, I'm going to defer to Dr. O 'Rourke. He's actually done a lot of research on that, and he would be the expert amongst the three of us.

Okay. Dr. O 'Rourke? Well, I appreciate that.

Yes, the PCR is the foundational test in the whole COVID -19 paradigm.

Bible cultures are being done. There is a rapid antigen test which is being done, but unfortunately there is really no gold standard test for this illness, and that is highly problematic.

But in any event, the PCR test stands for polymerase chain reaction, and it is a molecular test where they are trying to look for genetic material from the virus.

Now, this test has been applied to many, many different types of applications, research, so forth, other types of infectious diseases.

But very briefly, all of us have a nucleus in our cells, and within that nucleus is our genetic code.

And virtually all organisms, there are a few exceptions, but virtually all living organisms on Earth have nuclear material and they have a genetic code.

And what the PCR test is looking for is this genetic material or this genetic fragment.

So basically, the common misperception is that this PCR test is actually looking for the virus.

It is not looking for the virus because it cannot look for the virus. The virus has many components, not just its genetic material.

So basically, if you use this test to find a little segment of genetic material, let's say you have flu -like symptoms and they place a swab in your nose, obviously there is a multitude of microbes that are there.

So in a sense, it's a needle in a haystack type test where we're trying to find the genetic sequences that are most compatible with SARS -CoV -2 virus, which is the presumptive viral etiologic agent of the

COVID -19 syndrome. So basically, there's a lot of presumptions that are going on with this test, and I think

I can show in just a couple of minutes of discussion is that the test is really unreliable for being attempted to be used for.

So very briefly, the way the test works is they take a sample from the nose usually, or the throat, and they apply some chemicals to that sample, and what that does is it can break apart the various DNA structures in there.

For those people who have an understanding of this, they will recognize that this is a massive oversimplification of a very complex process.

But in essence, the SARS -CoV -2 is what's called a messenger RNA virus.

So we are looking with the PCR for the messenger RNA. Now, genetic molecules are made up of what is called nucleotides, and there's basically four of them that are used by God in the human body.

I won't name them, but they go by a letter code, A, C, G, and T, and there's only four.

And what makes organisms genetically unique is the length of the segment and the order in which these nucleotides are arranged.

So basically, SARS -CoV -2 is felt to be about 30 ,000 nucleotides in length.

If you think of it as a string of pearls, with each pearl representing a nucleotide, that is the length of the

SARS -CoV -2 virus. To put it in perspective, in the nucleus of every human cell, we have 22 chromosomes plus the sex of the chromosomes,

X and Y, or XX as the case may be. It is estimated that in the human genome, there are 3 billion to 6 billion nucleotides.

So you have 30 ,000 nucleotides for a very simple biological structure called a

SARS -CoV -2 virus, and we have maybe as many as 6 billion in a human cell.

So what we're doing with that 30 ,000 sequence, it is very difficult and not clinically possible, due to turnaround, to look for the entire genome length.

So the PCR test is a shortcut test. And that is a reasonable thing to do, because to try to find the entire intact viral genome could take a lot of time, it's a lot of expense, and by the time the testing is done, it could be one or two weeks later, and then you're better or you're worse, but it has not really helped us clinically.

So what they do is they take this RNA that they know, they believe is related to the coronavirus in question, and they heat it up, and they cool it off, and they do these procedures called cycles.

These particles are very, very small, so what they want to do is they want to amplify them to a sufficient number so that they can be seen with a foreseen -detecting optical instrument.

So one of the foundational problems with the PCR test is that if we do too many cycles, the test is very sensitive.

If the sample has just one little fragment, you're looking for it, they'll find it if it's in the sample, and it will magnify it, but that does not tell you where it came from, is it infectious, what can it do to you, it answers none of those questions.

The other problem with the PCR is that it assumes that the genetic sequences that are being looked for are specific for SARS -CoV -2.

If we think of this nucleotide as something like a giant cosmic

Scrabble game, you have a big, giant bucket with just four letters in there, the ones

I mentioned, so you have all these things that can be strung together in an infinite number of combinations.

So it would stand to reason that if you looked at a 50 -nucleotide sequence of letters, somewhere else in the universe, you're going to find that same sequence, either in whole or in part.

And sure enough, there were some Spanish researchers that looked through the genetic genome databases, and they found out that some of the sequences that matched up with the

SARS -CoV -2 were also found in the human genome, and were also found in other microbes. So we have a problem with specificity, we have a problem with overamplification, and because of these two problems, and I might add, doctors, when we order a test, all we get is a yes or no.

So, as was mentioned earlier by Dr. Yager, all of this paradigm is under what's called emergency use authorization.

And what this means is it's basically a wild west of testing. None of these tests had to be validated through the

FDA. Different cycle thresholds are being used, and that references how many amplification cycles are being used to detect the virus, which parts of the virus their sampling could vary.

So that's why you could go to Dr. Yager's office and get one result, you could go over to a local hospital and be tested and get a different result, and the test may not have used the same methodology.

So, to bring this to a rapid conclusion, if someone has a positive test for COVID, the answer is, the question is, well, do you have

COVID? We are being told by everyone that if you have a positive test, you are infected with SARS -CoV -2.

We are being told that if you have a negative test, you are not infected with SARS -CoV -2.

And as I hope, even with a brief discussion I've illustrated, we cannot know that to be true. And what will be a very shocking statement to most of our listeners is that everyone who has tested positive for the coronavirus, the best we can say is, you might have it.

Well, might have it is not good enough for what has been done. The closure of churches, the massive assault on the economy, the assault on civil rights, all these things.

So, it's really, really not good enough. We have to get our final break right now, and it's a much shorter break, so we'll be right back.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, and Dr.

Jaeger, I'm sorry, Dr. O 'Rourke, I don't know if you were saying something after I cut to the break, but I heard you speaking in the background.

I couldn't make out what you were saying. I'm sorry. Oh, no problem, Chris. I was just adding that this is a massive topic.

It's very hard to explain that in five minutes, especially to a largely lay audience. But if there's any questions on that,

I'm happy to explain that in a little bit more detail, but I know time is short. Okay, well, we have

Christopher in western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and Christopher says, is it correct to say that the coronavirus is really no more serious than the flu?

And we'll start with Dr. Jaeger this time. Yes, I think that is a fair assessment. It's not entirely accurate, perhaps, to compare coronavirus with flu, but they're both respiratory illnesses, and when you look at the data, in terms of, well, for example, pediatrics, pediatric deaths and comorbidities associated with the flu are actually higher than that of associated with COVID.

In other words, there's very, very, very little issues of COVID in the pediatric population.

In the adult population, yes. In fact, the infectious fatality rate is possibly, it's thought to be very much equivalent to the flu.

So that's actually a very brief answer, but broadly speaking, yes, that is correct. We have

Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and he says,

I heard you saying something earlier about DNA, and I have heard rumors that DNA actually is altered by taking into your body a vaccine, and I've also heard that this is just purely myth and a hoax.

Who is right on this issue? And Dr.

O 'Rourke. Yeah, that's a very important question because as Christians, we definitely want to be as accurate as we can be with our knowledge.

And there have been some claims that it does alter the genome.

We do not know that to be true. Very briefly, the messenger RNA vaccine, when the vaccine is injected into the muscle, the

RNA and the two Pfizer and the Moderna vaccine, they do not enter the nucleus of the cell.

The messenger RNA goes to a structure called the ribosome, which is a manufacturing plant, and it instructs the manufacturing plant to make the spike protein to the coronavirus.

So I think it's accurate to what I said earlier. In a certain sense, you are a genetically modified organism at that point, but that does not mean that you've been permanently genetically modified.

But there could possibly be some very complex feedback mechanisms that we do not know about, and that perhaps some of this genetic material could be incorporated into the nucleus.

But for right now, it is my judgment, a misnomer to say that it alters your DNA within the nucleus of a cell.

Okay, and Ernie, are we simply dealing with earthly matters, or is this a spiritual warfare between good and evil?

Well, it's probably a little bit of both, but all members of the Church, both lady and leadership, we're to be in the world, but not of it.

Yet the Church is to maintain a certain world and life view that recognizes an old concept of the antithesis, which is an understanding that sees a distinction between secular and sacred, sin and obedience, evil and good, and especially between the works and lies of Satan, the prince of this world, versus King Jesus, who sits on the throne.

Those in our society that we look to for direction and things outside of the

Church, if in fact they are largely unregenerate, they care nothing for the things of God in this world.

They promote and teach and rule, not in a vacuum of neutrality, but their activities are antithetical to godly reason and purpose.

They're basically devoid of Christian truth and righteousness. They are by definition anti -Christian and can be a threat to God's people.

Spiritual warfare is the very nature of the life of the Christian in this world. Without reading the passage,

Ephesians 6, it talks about the armor of God and lays out the various items that we need, like the breastplate of righteousness and our loins guard about with the truth and feet shod with the preparation of the gospel and so forth, shield of faith.

All these things are there to quench the fiery darts of the wicked, and these are things that we have to deal with in life, particularly outside of the

Church. Much of the direction and guidance and requirements and recommendations are coming from outside of the

Church. When our spiritual leaders choose to direct us or mandate upon us the things that are coming from outside of the

Church, if it comes down to a matter of truth, if it's truth, then they do well in telling us what to do.

If it's not a matter of truth, then they err and commit us to this spiritual battle, if you will, without the full armor of God, because we're battling something that is a falsehood.

So the matters of coronavirus and all the appendages from the health community and the government that have been dictated and influenced, or even perhaps they have enabled, and this may sound strong, but disobedient leadership of the

Church to pursue unbiblical avenues of restriction and repression. So yes, I do believe that there is elements of this that are a spiritual battle.

And we are out of time, and you can go to amazon .com to order this book that we have been addressing,

Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, A Sacred Trust Broken. And I want to thank all my guests today, and I look forward to having you men back, especially when there may be new developments that we are hearing about.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater