Mormon/Christian speak at Mormon Temple (part 1)

The Challenge of the One True God

What do you do with God where he says, I'm the first, I'm the last, besides me there is no God?

He says that because he is the...

Those words to that text in order for them to make it work? Well, let me just quote it. I'm the first and I'm the last, besides me there is no God. And then he says, no, God says, is there a God besides me?

Indeed there is no other God, I know not one. God says he doesn't know of any other gods besides himself. You believe that there are many other gods.

You're quoting somebody that's a prophet of God that you don't understand.

Well, could you enlighten me on how...

I'd be glad to if you don't take some time.

I'd love to.

Would you? Are you really sincere?

I'm absolutely sincere.

You really want to know.

I would love to chat with you, for sure.

Sure, you want to know.

I'd love to chat with you.

I've got the time.

Okay.

Get your Bible.

I've got it ready to go.

Right here.

How are you doing?

Good.

Are you in the same group?

No.

I've never seen these guys before in my life.

What are you trying to do here? Are you trying to save us from our God?

Well, we can't save you, but we can give you the gospel message and God can do the work. And we're just presenting to you the biblical Jesus and the biblical gospel. We believe with all of our hearts, with love and grace and concern for you, that this church teaches a different Jesus, what Paul would call in 2 Corinthians 11, another Jesus, one that can't save you.

It's a false Jesus. And we believe this church teaches a false gospel, one that cannot save. And so we're here because we care about you. We believe that Joseph Smith is a false prophet, obviously. And we care about you.

We want to give you the truth.

Testimony, Scripture, and the Claim of Distinct Gods

Now, all of this time that you've said that, all of you heard you say,.

He believes this. He believes this.

Now, let me tell you my testimony. I know. I don't disbelieve. I know God lives.

Sure he does.

I know that Jesus is the Christ, that there are two separate and distinct beings.

I know. That's exactly what we're trying to get to.

And we know.

A moment ago you said that you were going to get to the text of Scripture.

I will.

Okay, and here's the real question. I was in the text and what I want to ask you is, when God says, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me, LDS theology doesn't allow you to believe that.

So my question to you, as someone who's faithful, who is, like I said, sincere and zealous, what do you do with God when he says, there were no Gods formed before him, none after him? You don't believe that, correct?

I know God is the Son of our Father in Heaven.

Is he the eternal God? Is Jesus a created being? Was he a spirit child of Heavenly Father?

Was Jesus Christ?

Was Jesus Christ created by the Father in the pre-existence as a spirit child?

Well, open your Scriptures.

I'd love to. Where?

Colossians 1 and 15.

Yeah, this is where Jesus, yeah.

What does it say?

It says he's the firstborn.

How is he, when was he firstborn?

Protokos means the preeminence. It doesn't mean firstborn and created.

Oh, but when does he say he's firstborn? You're perverting the Scriptures.

No, no, let me quote it to you. In him we have redemption through his blood, right? And then he is, where it says firstborn is protokos, that word in the Greek, do you understand the point of the Greek?

Protokos doesn't mean created. The preeminence, he has the preeminence.

There's three places in the Scriptures that he's created. It also says in Acts where he's the offspring of God.

Acts chapter 18 where Paul's talking to the Areopagus on Mars Hill, where he's talking to pagan idolaters. He quotes Aratus of Cilicia and Epimenides of Crete.

You can stand here. And he's teaching them right.

Not Galilee, they weren't in Galilee. He was in the Areopagus and he quotes two pagan philosophers essentially, Aratus of Cilicia and Epimenides of Crete, to cite them to show the truthfulness of the Gospel, that we're all created in God's image.

He wasn't saying that we are offspring or God's an embryo. Now, getting back to what God said, God says that he's the first and the last and he doesn't know of any other gods.

Wait a minute, he says he's the offspring of God.

Who is the offspring of God? Where does it say that Jesus Christ is a created being?

He says he's the firstborn.

Now again, protocos means preeminence.

Wait, wait, wait, don't change it.

That's what it means.

It means just what it says.

No, no, it does not, sir.

It doesn't mean what it says.

No, protocos means preeminence, like where God calls Israel his firstborn. Does God give birth to nations? Does God give birth to nations? So when David is called God's firstborn, was David God's firstborn?

He has preeminence. Jesus has preeminence. And the next part of the verse, which you need to see, in Colossians 1 .16, right after that verse you're quoting, it says, for by him, that's Jesus,.

Were all things created,.

And the heavens and the earth, visible and invisible, right? Now let me ask you a question. But as someone that's a Latter-day Saint, you don't believe that, do you?

I do not.

So you believe that Jesus created Satan?

So you believe that Jesus... So do you believe that Jesus created Satan? Because that's what the text says. That's what it says. For by him were all things created, whether in heaven or on earth, visible and invisible...

You're perverting the scripture.

I'm just quoting it.

No, you're not.

Now notice I'm only quoting it. Now you can make the accusation that I'm perverting because it doesn't go with your theology.

But you put Satan in there, see?

Well, let me ask you a question. Was Satan created in heaven? In the preexistence?

Satan...

Was Satan created in heaven in the preexistence?

Or was he created?

I'm asking you.

No, you know everything.

Tell me.

No, I certainly don't know everything. Absolutely not.

Tell me.

I believe he was created in heavenly places. By God.

By who?

By God.

Which God?

Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Oh, you...

But once again, you have to answer the question, though. You have to answer this question. As a Christian, you have to have an answer to this. When LDS theology teaches that Elohim has sex with one of his goddess wives to produce Jesus and us in the preexistence, he produces Jesus and Satan, right?

And us in the preexistence to create us as spirit children, right? Now, how does that fit?

The offspring. Our spirits were created.

How does that fit? How does that fit with Colossians 1 .16 where it says that Jesus created in the heavenlies visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers,.

Which is a biblical...

You're trying to say he created his father.

No, no, no.

Jesus is eternal.

Remember what you quoted with my friend here? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word is with God. In Archean, halagos means in the beginning the Word was already there. So Jesus was proston theon.

He was face-to-face with the Father. It says in John 1 that he existed from all eternity. He was already there in the beginning and he had an eternal relationship with the Father. Proston theon means towards God, face-to-face with God.

So he didn't create the Father. He's eternally existed with the Father. That's what the Scripture says.

And you don't believe that his Father is still in heaven.

Well, first of all...

In other words, you say there's two beings, and then they're not two beings.

No, no, no. You believe in two beings. No, you believe in two beings. I don't believe in two beings. I believe in one being.

Well, then you've got a problem because he was here and he says...

Right.

When, which you quoted earlier, John 1, 14, and the Word became flesh, God became flesh, the second person, Jesus of the Trinity, became flesh. So the Father is speaking from heaven. You don't think that Christians believe that Jesus is the Father, do you?

Is that what you think Christians believe?

They believe the Nicene Creed, which Dr. Ruth Barne in the year 320, they believe in the Nicene Creed.

Well, that's difficult to swallow as a Christian because where we get our belief about Christ is from the New Testament itself, which would date to the first century.

Right.

And before that, the 39 books of the Old Testament.

Personal Testimony and the Weight of Scripture

Let me tell you who I am.

All right. I'd love to. I'm Jeff, by the way.

I'm George.

Okay. Pleasure to meet you.

I have taught the doctors of theology 19 of them. They were all believing what you're trying to tell me today.

You taught the doctors of theology?

Doctors of theology.

Doctors of theology.

In Baltimore.

Okay.

When I was on a mission.

To the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Okay.

A goodly number of them are now members of the Church.

Does that mean that the Mormon Church is true?

No. Okay.

I'm just telling you.

That I'm not worried about all the doctrine and theories. I've heard all of these theories.

But you noticed something, sir. And you have to understand something. We're all a vapor. We're all a vapor. You're here one moment and gone the next. And the question I have to ask you is, seeing as you've seen so far as we've talked, that your theology is in conflict with the Scriptures,.

What will you do to reconcile that?

It's not in conflict.

Your doctrine is in conflict.

Well, you notice that I've quoted Scripture to you.

Oh, yeah. You've quoted it and perverted it and twisted it.

Just quoted it.

Oh, yeah. Just turned it around and said this and this and this.

What do you do with God in Deuteronomy 4 where He says He created, He's the only God in the heavens and the earth? You don't believe that.

I know the doctrine. When you pull out a verse and say,.

This is what it means.

Well, let's go to it.

I know what it says.

Well, let's say just Deuteronomy 4 because you believe that there are many gods in the heavens, correct?

I know there is God the Father, there's Elohim.

But besides the three gods of this earth.

And while you're looking for Deuteronomy, I can go to other Scriptures the same way.

Well, just the question I'm asking you is, not just the three gods of this earth that you believe in, but the gods outside of that, right? You believe that as man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.

So you believe there are many gods outside of this earth.

You're talking about something you know nothing about.

Just asking you. I'm asking the question.