Mormon/Christian speak at Mormon Temple (part 1)

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Mormon/Christian speak at Mormon Temple (part 2)

00:01

What do you do with God where he says, I'm the first, I'm the last, besides me there is no God? He says that because he is the first, the last, and then he kills her.

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Do you notice that you have to add those words to that text in order for it to make it work? Well, let me just quote it.

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I'm the first and I'm the last, besides me there is no God. And then he says, no, no, God says, is there a

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God besides me, indeed there is no other God, I know not one. When God says he doesn't know of any other gods besides himself, you believe that there are many other gods.

00:32

You're quoting somebody that's a prophet of God, that you don't understand. Well could you enlighten me on how?

00:40

I'd be glad to if you don't take some time. I'd love to. Would you? Are you really sincere?

00:45

I'm absolutely sincere. You really want to know. I would love to chat with you, for sure. Sure. You want to know.

00:51

I'd love to chat with you. I've got the time. Okay. Get your Bible. I've got it ready to go. How you doing?

01:01

How are you? Are you in the same group? Nope. No.

01:07

I've never seen these guys before in my life. No. Okay. Yes. What are you trying to do here?

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Are you trying to save us from our God? Well, we can't save you, but we can give you the gospel message and God can do the work.

01:22

We're just presenting to you the biblical Jesus and the biblical gospel. We believe with all of our hearts, with love and grace and concern for you, that this church teaches a different Jesus, what

01:31

Paul would call in 2 Corinthians 11, another Jesus, one that can't save you. It's a false

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Jesus. And we believe this church teaches a false gospel, one that cannot save. And so we're here because we care about you.

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We believe that Joseph Smith is a false prophet, obviously. And we care about you. We want to give you the truth.

01:48

Now, all of this time that you've said that, all of you heard him say, he believes this. He believes this.

01:54

Now, let me tell you my testimony. I know. I don't disbelieve.

02:00

I know God lives. Sure he does. I know that Jesus is a Christ, that there are two separate, one is three beings.

02:07

I know. That's exactly what we're trying to get to. And we know. A moment ago you said that you were going to get to the text of scripture.

02:14

I will. Okay. And here's the real question. I was in the text and what I want to ask you is, when God says, before me there was no

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God formed, neither shall there be after me, LDS theology doesn't allow you to believe that.

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So my question to you as someone who's faithful, who is, like I said, sincere and zealous, what do you do with God when he says there were no

02:35

Gods formed before him, none after him? You don't believe that, correct? I know that God, Jesus Christ, is the

02:44

Son of our Father in Heaven. Is he the eternal God? Is Jesus a created being?

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Was he a spirit child of Heavenly Father? Was Jesus Christ? Was Jesus Christ created by the

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Father in the pre -existence as a spirit child? Open your scriptures. I'd love to. Where? Colossians 1 and 15.

03:02

Yeah, this is where Jesus, yeah. What does it say? It says he's the firstborn. How is he the firstborn?

03:08

Protokos means the pre -eminence. It doesn't mean firstborn and created. What does it say he's firstborn? You're perverting the scriptures.

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Let me quote it to you. In him we have redemption through his blood, right? And then he is, where it says firstborn is protokos.

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That word in the Greek, do you understand Koine Greek? I understand. Do you know that protokos doesn't mean created?

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Pre -eminence, he has the pre -eminence. There's three places in the scriptures that he's created. It also says in Acts that we're the offspring of God.

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Acts chapter 18, where Paul's talking to the Areopagus on Mars Hill, where he's talking to pagan idolaters.

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He quotes Eratos of Cilicia and Epimenides of Crete. You can stay here. He's teaching them right.

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Not Galilee, they weren't in Galilee. He was in the Areopagus. He quotes two pagan philosophers essentially,

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Eratos of Cilicia and Epimenides of Crete, to cite them, to show the truthfulness of the gospel.

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That we're all created in God's image. He wasn't saying that we are offspring or God's an embryo. Now, getting back to what

04:11

God said, God says that he's the first and the last, and he doesn't know of any other gods. Wait a minute, he says he's the offspring of God.

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Who is the offspring of God? Where does it say that Jesus Christ is a created being? He says he's the firstborn.

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Again, protokos means pre -eminence. Wait, wait, wait, don't change it. It means just what it says.

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No, no, it does not, sir. It doesn't mean what it says. No, protokos means pre -eminence.

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Like where God calls Israel his firstborn. Does God give birth to nations? Does God give birth to nations?

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So, when David is called God's firstborn, was David God's firstborn? He has pre -eminence.

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Jesus has pre -eminence. And the next part of the verse, which you need to see, in Colossians 1 .16, right after that verse you're quoting, it says, for by him, that's

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Jesus, were all things created, and the heavens and the earth, visible and invisible, right? Now, let me ask you a question.

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But as someone that's a Latter -day Saint, you don't believe that, though, do you? I do not. So, you believe that Jesus created

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Satan? So, you believe that Jesus... So, do you believe that Jesus created Satan?

05:18

Because that's what the text says. Well, that is what it says there. That's what it says. For by him were all things created, whether in heaven or on earth, visible and invisible.

05:30

You're perverting the scriptures. I'm just quoting it. No, you're not. Notice I'm only quoting. You can make the accusation that I'm perverting, because it doesn't go with your theology.

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But you put Satan in there, see? Well, let me ask you a question. Was Satan created in heaven, in the pre -existence?

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Satan? Was Satan created in heaven in the pre -existence? I'm asking you. No, you know everything.

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Tell me. No, I certainly don't know everything. I believe he was created in heavenly places.

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By God. By who? By God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. But once again, you have to answer the question.

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You have to answer this question. As a Christian, you have to have an answer to this. When LDS theology teaches that Elohim has sex with one of his goddess wives to produce

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Jesus and us in the pre -existence, he produces Jesus and Satan, and us, in the pre -existence, to create us as spirit children, right?

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Now, how does that fit? How does that fit? How does that fit with Colossians 1 .16,

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where it says that Jesus created all things in the heavenlies, visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, which is a biblical...

06:40

You're trying to say he created his father. No, Jesus is eternal. Remember what you quoted with my friend here?

06:47

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word is with God. In Archean, halagos means in the beginning, the Word was already there.

06:53

So Jesus was proston theon. He was face to face with the Father. It says in John 1 that he existed from all eternity.

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He was already there in the beginning and he had an eternal relationship with the Father. Proston theon means towards God, face to face with God.

07:07

So he didn't create the Father. He's eternally existed with the Father. That's what the Scripture says. And you don't believe that Jesus Christ, when he was here on this earth, that his

07:17

Father was still in heaven. Well, first of all... In other words, you say there's two beings and then there's not two beings.

07:23

No, you believe in two beings. I don't believe in two beings. I believe in one being. Well, then you've got a problem because he was here and he says,

07:31

Father... Right. When you quoted earlier, John 1 .14, and the Word became flesh, God became flesh, the second person,

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Jesus of the Trinity, became flesh. So the Father's speaking from heaven. You don't think that Christians believe that Jesus is the

07:43

Father, do you? Is that what you think Christians believe? They believe in the

07:48

Nicene Creed, which Dr. Ruth Barne in the year 320... They believe in the Nicene Creed. Well, that's difficult to swallow as a

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Christian because where we get our belief about Christ is from the New Testament itself, which would date to 1st century.

08:04

And before that, the 39 books of the Old Testament. Let me tell you who

08:09

I am. I'm Jeff, by the way. I'm George. I have taught the

08:17

Doctors of Theology 19 of them. They were all believing what you're trying to tell me today.

08:25

You taught the Doctors of Theology? Doctors of Theology. In Baltimore. When I was on a mission to the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, a goodly number of them are now members of the

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Church. Does that mean that the Mormon Church is true?

08:41

No. I'm just telling you that I'm not worried about all the doctrine and theories.

08:47

I've heard all of these theories. But you noticed something, sir, and you have to understand something. We're all a vapor.

08:54

You're here one moment and gone the next. And the question I have to ask you is seeing as you've seen so far as you talk, that your theology is in conflict with the

09:01

Scriptures, what will you do to reconcile it? Your doctrine is in conflict. Will you notice that I've quoted

09:07

Scripture to you? Oh yeah, you've quoted it and perverted it and twisted it. Just quoted it. What do you do with God in Deuteronomy 4 where he says he's the only

09:17

God in the heavens and the earth? You don't believe that. I know the doctrine.

09:23

When you pull out a verse and say this is what it means, I know what it says. Well, let's say just Deuteronomy 4 because you believe that there are many gods in the heavens, correct?

09:34

I know there is God the Father, there's Elohim. But besides the three gods of this earth.

09:40

And while you're looking for Deuteronomy, I can go to other Scriptures the same way. Well, just the question

09:47

I have to ask you is not just the three gods of this earth that you believe in, but the gods outside of that, right?

09:52

You believe that as man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. So you believe there are many gods outside of this earth.