April 1, 2019 Show with Martyn McGeown on “The Message of the Canons of Dordt” (Part 2)

The Iron Sharpens Iron Opening and the April Fool’s Joke

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday.

And I want to announce something that has been a radical transformation in my life over the weekend. I want to let you all know, I know this is going to upset many of you, but I want you all to know right off the bat that I have converted to five-point Arminianism.

Yes, I am no longer a Calvinist. My Wesleyan-Arminian friends have persuaded me, and I am now joining a local Wesleyan church having abandoned all of the systems of Reformed theology. And it just occurred to me, I just forgot to mention today's date in the opening announcements.

It's April Fool's Day, so I had to try to do something, and I hope I didn't startle too many of you too much. Yes, I am still as thoroughly Reformed as I ever was, at least after my conversion anyway.

And I'm sorry if I startled you. But anyway, today we have on this first day of April 2019, a returning guest who I love to interview. His name is Martin McGowan, and he is an author and he's the pastor of Limerick Reformed Fellowship in Limerick City, Ireland.

And we are addressing a discussion that we began a number of weeks ago, perhaps a couple of months ago actually, on Grace and Assurance, the Message of the Canons of Dort, which is the title of his latest book.

So this is part two of that discussion, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Martin McGowan.

Thank you for having me back, Chris.

And I hope I didn't startle you either, brother, because I know I didn't tell you about my little April Fool's joke before the show started either. Maybe it is. It should be. By the way, do they have April Fool's Day in Ireland?

We do, yeah.

Oh, okay. Well, first of all, let our listeners know, especially those who are unfamiliar with you, they haven't heard your previous interviews on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, tell them about the Limerick Reformed Fellowship in Limerick City, Ireland.

And I will send greetings from you to one of my pastors at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Simon O'Maney, who I know has visited Limerick Reformed Fellowship in Limerick City, Ireland when he was still living in Ireland.

In fact, he just became a citizen of the United States just about two weeks ago, I believe it was. I think it was the day before his birthday. Yeah, so even though you stole one of our citizens over here and married her, we have one of your former citizens that we stole and is now one of my pastors.

Well, we have.

I'm sorry?

We have.

Yeah, that's right. And by the way, happy anniversary. I know that your first wedding anniversary is coming up, and congratulations on that. Thank you. You're welcome. And we are now approaching the 400th anniversary of the Canons of Dort, and if I'm not mistaken, I believe next month is actually the anniversary date for when the Synod of Dort was actually finalized.

Am I right on that?

Yes.

I'm pretty sure it's May, and I could look that up later, May of 400 years ago. And tell our listeners exactly how the Canons of Dort, to start with, are unique amongst your confessional standards in not only your denomination, but many Reformed congregations and denominations, especially those that consider themselves to be a part of the Dutch or the Netherlands branch of the Reformation.

The three forms of unity include the Heidelberg Catechism, the Belgic Confession, and the Canons of Dort. Tell us why the Canons of Dort stand out unique amongst those three forms of unity. And those are the areas that specifically revolve around salvific issues.

Yeah.

Right.

And very quickly, those five points for our listeners who are unfamiliar with them, because we do have listeners who are not Calvinists and some who are not even Christian, but they are total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance and preservation of the saints.

And if you want to find out more about those issues, you can even listen to my previous interview with Martin McGill on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you just type in MCGEOWN, when you go to the past shows podcast section of the website, ironsharpensironradio .com, you will see all of my interviews with Martin McGill there.

And the last one, we did deal on the five points of Calvinism, at least how they are addressed in the Canons of Dort. Can you just give a brief summary of what we already covered on the Canons of Dort during our last program?

So what would you like to address today that we haven't covered in your book? I believe from what we have communicated about before the show, it is the third, fourth and fifth of the Canons of Dort. Is that correct?

Yes. My book is a commentary.

Yes.

It is kind of interesting how they lump those two together because those are two, in fact.

All of the five points really are misunderstood and often totally twisted when they are being explained by those outside of our faith, outside of our Reformed faith. But those are very two different aspects really, although they are inseparably connected as all the five points are.

Because on the one hand, you will have non-Calvinists say, how can you believe in total depravity? Man isn't that bad. And then they'll say, how can you believe in irresistible grace? Man isn't that good.

We resist grace all the time. So it's like they're complaining about two different things from two opposite ends of the spectrum, it really seems, because they're misunderstanding what we're saying. But if you could start in your summary of what you have gleaned from the Canons of Dort on these issues.

I think I'll begin by quoting...

Yeah, one of the problems that I think Wesley saw in this, even though he was an Arminian and I know that term isn't really perfectly monolithic, there are different kinds of Arminians, but I'm not sure how far back Wesley's understanding of provenient grace goes, which is also a Roman Catholic teaching with some differences.

But it seems that in order to distance themselves from Pelagianism, the concept of provenient grace was developed, both by Catholics and Arminians, to say that grace was necessary for man to even choose to believe in Christ in a saving fashion.

But then you have the problem that really brings them back to square one of why they reject Calvinism to begin with, because if Christ is providing this grace for every single person equally, why aren't they all responding to the gospel call?

And then at the same time, you have just an inability, I think, to explain away that God has a unique people that he has called to himself. Am I making sense here? Have you ever heard an Arminian give a logical explanation as to why they think unconditional election is horrible, and yet somehow a provenient grace is offered and only some respond to it?

I mean, do they believe that everybody is given the same measure of grace to respond? And how could they when there are some who are raised in foreign lands, especially before the modern age, there have been centuries that have gone by where millions of people have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel, so they could not have been given the same kind of grace to accept Christ because the opportunity wasn't even there.

I find so many pitfalls and inconsistencies and illogical thinking amongst Arminians, but have you ever heard anything that is even remotely logical? Now did this false notion of provenient grace go back as far as the remonstrance in Jacob Arminius or was it something, as far as Protestants are concerned, was it something later that came about?

Mm-hmm.

The medieval Romans were in trouble. And it's really a tragic and horrible way of thinking because you actually believe,.

If you accept this concept, that the human will, the tainted, sinful human will can conquer and thwart the will of God. If it is God's will, in fact not only his will but his passionate will that every single person that has ever lived and will ever live in the future will go to heaven, then you have finite, fallible, sinful men and women and children throughout the ages thwarting and defeating the will of God who is infinitely supposed to be superior to us.

It doesn't make any sense at all, does it? Yes, do that please.

This is the second half of Article One, evil.

Now how do you respond and how did our forefathers respond to the immediate reply to that that many Arminians will have that will mix truth with error when they say that we have been created in the image of God so therefore there is not a total depravity of our lost state.

It's just a wounded or crippled depravity but we still are image bearers of God therefore we cannot be totally depraved. How do you respond to that kind of a response? Now the issue of the perfection of the way Adam was created.

He obviously did not contain or possess original sin. He was the one that originated it. Well obviously it existed before Adam and Satan but the sin that he passed on to humanity originated with him. Do you have any understanding or conclusion or is this still a complete mystery because I don't think even Reformed people agree on this as to how Adam could have made such a horrible choice that was the ruin of all of his prodigy, all of mankind has suffered from the sin of Adam and technically his wife as well.

Do you have any understanding of how this pristine human could have made such a horrific choice? Yeah and we have the same to say about Lucifer do we not?

Well that's even more difficult to explain isn't it because he had no one to tempt him. We have to go to our very first break right now if you would like to join us on the air.

With a question of your own for Martin McGowan on the Canons of Dort our second discussion on this issue due to the writing of a book that he has in print now which is Grace and Assurance the message of the Canons of Dort and we are quickly approaching the 400th anniversary of the Canons of Dort.

In fact there is an upcoming conference that I'm going to be mentioning and giving you details on how you can attend and I'll give you the website. Right now it's Dort400 .org D as in David O R D as in David T as in Thomas 400 .org but I'll give you more details on that when we come back from the break.

If anyone would like to join us on the air our email address as I said is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C H R I S A R N Z E N at gmail .com. Please give us as always your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away. We'll be right back with Martin McGowan and Grace and Assurance the message of the Canons of Dort Part 2.

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The Fifth Point of Calvinism and Eternal Security

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is Martin McGone. And we are discussing his book, Grace and Assurance, The Message of the Canons of Dort, Part 2.

And Martin, I can't believe it. I just looked at the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio archive. We actually did Part 1 in December of 2018. I find that hard to believe that that much time has flown by. December 7th, 2018 is when we aired Part 1 of this discussion.

If anybody would like to join us live, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail dot com. Chrisarnzen at gmail dot com. Please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And while our listeners are waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you, Martin, I'd like you to just give an overview of what is next in the Canons of Dort. I don't know if you've finished what you'd like to say about Canons.

3 and 4, but Canon 5 would be one that we haven't addressed in this program yet. Yeah,.

That is why, as you probably know, there are many professing Christians who believe in four of the five points of Arminianism and do not like to be labeled Arminians. Some of them get vehemently angry about this.

They say they're Biblicists, they're not Arminians, and it primarily is in regard, I think, to the fact that they don't want to be associated with the fact that you could lose your salvation. Now, obviously, there are many others within Christendom who do believe you could lose your salvation amongst the Wesleyan Arminians and many of the Pentecostals and Charismatics and so on.

But do we not have to be very clear, we who are Reformed, when we talk about the perseverance of the saints, we have to be very clear to destroy a stereotype that exists about this view that is actually taught, tragically, by many Christians who perhaps want to run so far away from the works righteousness of Rome that they wind up in an opposite heresy because they're not using the Scriptures as their guide as they're running away from Rome.

And they teach, in an easy-believerism, a cheap grace where as long as somebody recites a prayer at Bible camp when they're seven years old that says that they believe there is a sinner and they accept Jesus into their heart, that latter part which is nowhere found in the Bible, they are told, they are to be convinced and confident that they are saved for the rest of their lives even if they live to a hundred and ten and in a totally unrepentant and licentious life, even to the degree of satanic life, they are told they are going to heaven because of this prayer.

Now we have to separate ourselves from that because that is not at all a historic Reformed teaching.

Nor is it a Biblical teaching. Am I correct? The issue of the phrase you used which is.

A favorite phrase of many of our fundamentalist friends, once saved always saved, isn't that. Even though we who are Reformed don't use that phrase as a buzz phrase, we don't have it as a part of our Christianese, technically it is a true statement, is it not?

But the difference is even though once we are saved we truly will always be saved, the problem is that people think that once they believe they are saved they always will truly be saved.

And you can believe you are saved and be really seriously wrong about that, can you not? Right.

Yes and unfortunately they have typically a lot of Christian friends who are encouraging them in the notion that they are still saved even if they happen to be involved in some very serious scandalous sin unrepentantly and of course not only serious scandalous sin sends people to hell, any sin sends people to hell if they don't have the blood of Christ covering them, but you will have the most openly rebellious people to the Christian faith being told, well we know that he is a believer, well not a believer but we know that he is a saved person who will be in heaven one day because I remember when he raised his hand in Bible camp, but it even goes beyond that.

You could be outwardly seemingly apparently to everybody surrounding you a vibrant active church believer, church attender, church member, you could even be a pastor who has authored dozens of books and it turns out after years of on the outside looking like you are faithfully following Christ the person gives up the faith and just lives the remainder of their days in a hellish manner outside of Christ.

I happen to know of some circumstances where men who are pastors who are even authors who believe very close if not nearly identically what you and I believe who totally abandon the faith and are now living as atheists.

I mean this does happen which proves that they never really were born again to begin with no matter what kind of.

Evidence fooled everyone around them. Am I right? Amen. And you used a word that I think.

Is a very important element of this concept. You used the word preservation because it is God who is preserving his elect. I have had conversations with anti-Calvinist fundamentalists who think when we say persevering, the perseverance of the saints that man through his struggle and battle with the world flesh and the devil and the effort that is involved to persevere to the end that we are somehow meriting our salvation.

And it is kind of absurd that I have heard that argument from anti-Calvinists when we don't even believe the human will is involved in our regeneration or justification at all. So I mean it is kind of odd that then we are getting a Roman Catholic bomb thrown at us on this end of the spectrum.

It is kind.

Of strange isn't it? Now how do you respond to the issue at hand where there are well-meaning.

Christians outside of the reformed faith outside of Calvinism who in their efforts and I would say misguided and not biblically trained efforts but in their efforts to defend the integrity and holiness and righteousness of God they seek to distance God from the decree of sin to occur.

We know as reformed Christians that there is nothing that can ever happen in heaven and on earth that is not decreed by God himself. He orchestrated and ordained all that happens to happen and nothing can stop what he has ordained from happening and they recoil in horror to that notion because they think we are accusing God of actually tempting people into sin or making people against their will sin, forcing people against their will sin, or even on the other end of the spectrum forcing people against their will to believe rather than making them willing as the scriptures teach, giving them new hearts which makes them irresistibly drawn to the Lord.

But they see this as not only forcing people against their will to sin, forcing people against their will to follow Christ and in essence making men robots. That is the classic kind of phraseology many Arminians or non-Calvinists.

Use. How do you respond to that? And we have to go to our midway break right now. This.

Is the longer than normal break that we have on Iron Trip from Zion Radio because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida airs this program in a pre-recorded fashion twice a day and they need this midway break to air their own Lake City, Florida public service announcements and commercials to localize my show to Lake City, Florida while I air my commercials that are heard globally.

So please be patient as we take this long break. Use this time to write down questions for Martin McGeown on the Canons of Dort. Also use this time to write down information provided by our advertisers because the more you, more frequently you patronize our advertisers and the more heavily you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they will remain our advertisers which means the more likely Iron Trip and Zion Radio will remain on the air because we depend on our advertisers to survive.

In fact I'm so delighted that those who have orchestrated Dort400 .org have advertised this event coming up on April 25th, 26th and 27th. Just coming up shortly they have advertised this on our program and that all helps Iron Trip and Zion Radio to remain in existence.

So please write down the information provided by our advertisers and send us a question for Martin McGeown at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always give us your first name at least, city and state of residence and country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA.

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One of them, very appropriately, is the conference Dort 400, a three-day conference sponsored by the Protestant Reformed Theological Seminary. And they have a number of speakers, one of which has also been a guest on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Professor Ronald Kamenga, and we have professor Barrett Gritters, and we have the Reverend Brian Huizinga, and I'm sure I mispronounced that name.