April 1, 2019 Show with Martyn McGeown on “The Message of the Canons of Dordt” (Part 2)

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens

Iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday and I want to announce something that has been a radical transformation in my life over the weekend

I want to let you all know I know this is going to upset many of you, but I want you all to know right off the bat

That I have converted to five -point Arminianism yes, I am no longer a Calvinist my

Wesleyan Arminian friends have persuaded me And I am now joining a local

Wesleyan Church having abandoned all of the systems of reform theology And it just occurred to me.

I just forgot to mention today's date in the opening announcements. It's April Fool's Day I had to try to do something, and I hope

I didn't startle too too many of you too much yes, I am still as thoroughly reformed as I ever was at least after my conversion anyway and I'm sorry if I startled you, but anyway today we have on this first day of April 2019 a

Returning guest who I love to interview His name is Martin McGowan, and he is an author and he's the pastor of limerick reformed fellowship in limerick

City, Ireland and we are addressing a Discussion we are we are addressing a discussion that we began a number of weeks ago

Perhaps a couple of months ago actually On grace and assurance the message of the canons of Dort which is the title of his latest book

So this is part two of that discussion, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio

Martin McGowan Thank you for having me back Chris And I hope

I didn't startle you either brother because I know I didn't tell you about my little April Fool's joke before the show started

Maybe it is it should be by the way. Do they have April Fool's Day in Ireland?

Well Well First of all let our listeners know especially those who are unfamiliar with you.

They haven't heard your Previous interviews on iron sharpens iron radio tell them about the limerick reformed fellowship in limerick

City, Ireland The limerick reformed fellowship is a mission work of the

Covenant Protestant Reformed Church in Ballymena Northern Ireland Which is a sister church of the

Protestant Reformed Churches of America of America, and I've been here since 2010 and we are a group of about 20 or so and we meet in the city center in Thomas Street our website is

Limerick reformed calm and our services are 11 o 'clock and 5 30 p .m.

And I will send greetings from you to one of my pastors at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle Simon O'Maney who

I know has visited limerick reformed fellowship in limerick City, Ireland when he was still living in Ireland in fact he just became a

Citizen of the United States just about two weeks ago. I believe it was I think it was the day before his birthday

No, congratulations to him. Yeah, so even though you stole one of our citizens over here and married her

We have one of your former citizens that we stole and is now one of my pastors

I'm sorry Yeah, that's right And by the way, happy anniversary,

I know that your first wedding anniversary is coming up and congratulations on that You're welcome and we are now approaching the 400th anniversary of the cannons of Dort and if I'm not mistaken,

I believe next month is actually the anniversary date for when the The Senate of Dort was actually finalized.

Am I right on that? I should know that but I don't remember the exact date. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's

May and I could look that up later May of 400 years ago and Tell our listeners exactly how the cannons of Dort to start with are unique amongst your confessional standards in not only your denomination, but Many Reformed congregations and denominations, especially those that consider themselves to be a part of the the

Dutch or the Netherlands branch of the Reformation the three forms of unity

Include the Heidelberg Catechism the Belgic Confession and the cannons of Dort Tell us why the cannons of Dort stand stand out unique amongst those three forms of unity

The cannons of Dort were written in response to The error that was swirling around the

Netherlands at the time the error which is named after Arminius Arminianism and so the cannons of Dort are a response and a refutation of Arminius's teachings and the teachings of the followers of Arminius and so they are the

Original five points of Calvinism therefore and so they're They're narrower in their focus than the other two creeds

Heidelberg Catechism and Belgic Confession really cover all of theology or all of doctrine

But the cannons of Dort cover those articles of faith, which were being attacked by the

Arminians at the time And those are the areas that specifically revolve around Salvific issues

Yeah, yeah, it's it's the salvation God's work of salvation

God's decree of election and reprobation man's depravity the cross the atonement and God's grace in conversion and the perseverance of the

Saints What we call the five points of Calvinism You might say an expanded version of simply the five points of Calvinism more detail right very quickly those five points for our listeners who are unfamiliar with them because we do have listeners who are not

Calvinists and some who are not even Christian, but they are total depravity unconditional election limited atonement

Irresistible grace and perseverance and preservation of the Saints and if you want to find out more about Those issues you can even listen to my previous interview with Martin McGowan on iron sharpens iron radio if you just type in MCG EOWN when you go to the past shows podcast section of The the website iron sharpens iron radio .com

you will see all of my Interviews with Martin McGowan there and the last one we did deal on the five points of Calvinism at least how they are

Addressed in the canons of Dort. Can you can you just give a brief summary of what we already covered on the cannons of Dort?

during our last program Our last interview we noticed that the canons of Dort are divided into five heads not the the tulip

Order that we might be used to with total depravity at the beginning, but rather they start with Unconditional election because that's where the

Armenians focus their attack on the subject of predestination Unconditional election we looked at last time which is the teaching that God before the foundation of the world chose unconditionally a people for himself in Jesus Christ and Then we looked at the atonement

So called limited atonement or particular redemption, which is the second head of Doctrine and we noticed there that the issue was what exactly is the atonement and what does it?

accomplish and what is God's purpose in the atonement and the purpose of the atonement is to save all those for whom

Christ died and Therefore there's not all men are saved. We know that Christ did not die for all men

Those are the two heads we looked at last time had one on Predestination and had two on the redemption of man by the death of Christ So, what would you like to address today that we haven't covered in your book

I believe from what we have communicated about before the show

It is the third fourth and fifth Of the canons of Dorrit, is that correct?

Yes. My book is a commentary on the canons of Dorrit So I explain each of the articles in the five heads

Chapter by chapter. So the last time we discussed the introduction About the history of the

Senate of Dorrit and the importance of creeds and confessions We looked at the first head on predestination look at the second head on redemption, so we can continue therefore with head three and four on What you might say are total depravity and irresistible grace

Yes The canons of Dorrit Lump those two things together as the third and fourth heads of doctrine

The title of that section is of the corruption of man his conversion to God and the manner thereof

Yeah, it's kind of interesting how they lump those two together because Those are two in fact, all of the five points really are misunderstood and often

Totally twisted when they're being explained by those outside of our faith outside of our reform faith

But those are very two different aspects really and although they're inseparably connected as all the five points are because on the one hand

You will have Non -calvinists say how can you believe in total depravity man isn't that bad and then they'll say how can you believe in irresistible grace?

Man, isn't that good? We resist grace all the time. So it's They're complaining about Two different things from two opposite ends of the spectrum.

It really seems because they're misunderstanding what we're saying, but if you could Start in your summary of what you have gleaned from the canons of Dorrit on these issues

I think I'll begin by quoting what the Armenians said this is the remonstrance written in 1610

One year after the death of Arminius himself his followers gathered and they wrote a remonstrance, which is a kind of a doctrinal protest and I'll read to you the first part of article 3

That man has not saving grace of himself Nor of the energy of his free will in as much as he in the state of apostasy and sin

Can of and by himself Neither think will nor do anything that is truly good such as having faith eminently is

But that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ through his

Holy Spirit and renewed in understanding Inclination or will and all his powers in order that he may rightly understand think will and effect

What is truly good? According to the word of Christ in John 15 5 without me he can do nothing

Now I Would well imagine that there are no Armenians today who would agree with that Because taken by itself

It sounds like total depravity to me This is why the

Senate of Dort put these two things together because if you continue reading article 4 of the remonstrance it says

But this grace of God is the beginning continuance and accomplishment of any good even to this extent

That the regenerate man himself without that prevenient or assisting awakening following and cooperative grace

Can neither think will nor good nor do good or withstand any temptations to evil?

so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ and here's

Here's the fatal blow But as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not

Irresistible in as much as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the

Holy Ghost So in other words what the Armenians are saying is man is corrupt and man can do nothing of himself but He is able

To resist the grace of God and he's also able not to resist the will of God and So those who are saved are those who?

Do not resist the will of God Which really overthrows the whole doctrine of Total depravity because it means that there is still something in man

Which is able to cooperate with or at least not to resist the grace of God and so the grace of God according to Arminianism is for everyone

It assists man. It comes before man. It awakens him he can cooperate with it and It is not

Irresistible and only if you put those two things together So there are many an ism really show itself to be an error

Because the first half So is orthodox enough. It sounds like total depravity, but put the earth with the

Resistible grace with it and you see no They're not really believing in total depravity they're pretending to believe in total depravity

And that that was the Arminians in 1610 now as I said if you read a modern

Arminian They'll not be as supple as that. So how did the

Senate then deal with this issue? well, they began in the third and fourth heads of doctrine by explaining

The creation and fall of man Interested and that's something

I think you need to talk to your minions about you need to ask them this question Do you believe there was a fall into sin?

They'll say yes, and that's the complete heretics. They'll say yes Then you need to ask.

Well, what was the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve?

Interested all the effect upon them and What was the effect upon the rest of mankind and that's where you start to see

What Arminianism actually is? Yeah, one of the problems that I think

Wesley saw in this even though he was an Arminian and there I know that That term isn't really

Perfectly monolithic. There are different kinds of Arminians But I'm not sure how far back

Wesley's understanding of provenient grace goes which is also a Roman Catholic teaching with some differences but it seems that in order to distance themselves from Pelagianism the concept of provenient grace was developed both by Catholics and Arminians To say that grace was necessary for man to even

Choose to believe in Christ in a saving fashion, but then you have the the problem that really brings them back to square one of why they reject

Calvinism to begin with because if Christ is Providing this grace for every single person equally.

Why aren't they all responding to the gospel call and then at the same time?

You have Just an inability I think to explain away

That God has a unique people that he is called to himself. Am I making sense here?

Have you ever heard an Arminian give a logical explanation as to why they think unconditional election is horrible and yet somehow a

Provenient grace is offered and only some respond to it I mean do they believe that everybody is given the same measure of grace to respond and how could they when there are some

Who are raised in foreign lands, especially before? The modern age there have been centuries that have gone by where millions of people have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel

So they could not have been given the same kind of grace to accept Christ because the the opportunity wasn't even there

I just find I find so many pitfalls and inconsistencies and illogical thinking amongst

Arminians But have you ever heard anything that you that is even remotely logical? No, I Think the problem with Arminianism is that They almost believe that the fall of man really didn't have much of an effect upon man

If you really push them on the question, they're not really able to tell you they think well

Adam had free will in the garden and We must still have free will after the fall that seems to be what they think and there's they don't take into account at all the fact that when man fell he fell completely and He became completely corrupted in his entire nature

They don't seem to understand that Now did the did this false notion of pervenient grace go back as far as the remonstrance and Jacob Arminius?

Or was it something as far as he as far as Protestants are concerned? Was it something later that came about?

Well, I believe that Arminius Developed those kind of ideas from Roman Catholicism.

Mm -hmm I mean the idea that God's grace is working in people and that they can resist that grace or they can cooperate with that grace

That comes from medieval Roman Roman Catholicism And Arminius was certainly affected by Roman Catholic theologians.

He read Roman Catholic theologians He was asked actually when he was a professor or before he was a professor he was asked to Evaluate a book written by a

Roman Catholic theologian against predestination And he never did because he actually agreed with the book

We want that many agree with the book because he would have got in trouble He kept stalling and stalling and stalling he never actually came to the point of actually writing a

Reputation of the book as he was supposed to So I believe yeah Convenient grace resistible grace

And it's Really a tragic and horrible way of thinking because you actually believe if you if you accept this concept

That the human will the tainted sinful human will can conquer

Then thwart the will of God if it is God's will in fact

Not only his will but his passionate will that every single person That has ever lived and will ever live in the future will go to heaven then you have finite fallible sinful men and women and children throughout the ages thwarting and Defeating the will of God who is infinitely supposed to be superior to us.

It doesn't make any sense at all does it? No, except that Arminians will say well, you know

God gives us freedom because He wants to give us freedom I Don't know.

I Want to quote from article one of the third and fourth heads of doctrine this explains

What the fall has? Done to man. Yes do that.

Please the second half of article one He forfeited these excellent gifts and on the contrary entailed on himself blindness of mind horrible darkness

Vanity and perverseness of judgment. He became wicked rebellious and Obdurate which means stubborn in heart and will and impure in his affections and then article 3 says therefore all men are conceived in sin and by nature children of wrath incapable of saving good prone to evil

Dead and sin and in bondage thereto and without the regenerating grace of the

Holy Spirit They are neither able nor willing to return to God to reform their depravity of their nature nor to dispose themselves to reformation.

So that's a description of total depravity That's what total depravity is

The total corruption of the entire nature of man so that man is unable to do anything good and inclined to all evil now

How do you respond and how did our forefathers respond? to the immediate reply to that that many

Armenians will have that will mix truth with error when they say that we have been created in the image of God, so therefore there there is not a total depravity of our lost state

It's just a wounded or crippled depravity, but we still are image bearers of God Therefore we cannot be totally depraved.

How do you respond to that kind of a response if that were true? They would be correct. However, man lost the image of God in the fall

That's what the canons teach because the canons speak in article 1 about the image of God Man was originally formed after the image of God His understanding was adorned with a true and saving knowledge of his creator and of spiritual things number one

Knowledge his heart and will were upright Number two righteousness all his affections pure and the whole man was holy

Holiness, so if you look in Ephesians 4 24 Colossians 3 verse 10

You learn there what the image of God is its righteousness holiness and knowledge they

Were in man at the beginning But he lost the image of God because it goes on to say he forfeited these excellent gifts and Brought upon himself the opposite.

So man after the fall is not in the image of God and That's what the other creeds teach as well

The Heidelberg Catechism and the Belgian Confession and even the Westminster Confession as well they all teach the same thing about the image of God is knowledge of God righteousness and holiness and Man is not in the image of God man is an image bearer

He's able to bear an image But he has lost the image of God and has taken upon himself the image of Satan Which is why

Christ says to the unbelieving Jews you are of your father the devil so unbelievers are

Not in the image of God now the issue of the perfection of The way

Adam was created He obviously did not Contain or possess original sin.

He was the one that originated it Well, I obviously existed before Adam in Satan, but the the sin that he passed on to humanity originated with him

Do you have any Understanding or conclusion or is this still a complete mystery because I don't think even reforms people agree on this as To how

Adam could have made such a horrible choice that was the ruin of all of his prodigy all of mankind has suffered from the sin of Adam and Technically his wife as well.

Do you have any? understanding of how this Pristine human could have made it made such a horrific choice

That's a very difficult question to to answer What I what

I write in the book is on page 201 Therefore if evil would come upon man or if man were to commit evil that evil must come from the outside There was no internal bias toward evil in Adam, but there was no moral flaw and man in his creation

God created him with true knowledge perfect righteousness and pure or unsullied holiness

Scripture calls this the image of God because knowledge righteousness and holiness Were reflected in Adam in such a way that he was like God so there was no flaw in Adam when he was created and The correct the confessions speak about the devil the instigation of the devil

So the devil was the one who tempted Adam But how it's possible for a holy creature with no inclination to evil to In the mystery,

I cannot explain except that God decreed it. It was part of God's counsel and will

It happened. Yeah, and we have the same to say about Lucifer.

Do we not? But that's even more difficult to explain isn't it? Yeah, because he had no one to tempt him that's right

And he was he was perfectly In his creation. He was he was flawlessly perfect as well

He had no one to tempt him and yet for some reason pride arose in his heart and he rebelled against God The Bible does not explain to us how that happened or what it happened.

We just believe it because the Bible teaches it At least with Adam you can say that there wasn't there was temptation but with Right, well we have to go to our very first break right now if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Martin McGowan on the canons of Dort our

Second discussion on this issue due to the writing of a book that he has in print now

Which is grace and assurance the message of the canons of Dort When we are quickly approaching the 400th anniversary of the canons of Dort.

In fact, there is an upcoming Conference that I'm going to be mentioning and giving you details on how you can attend

And I'll give you the website right now. It's Dort 400 org D as in David or D as in David T as in Thomas 400 org, but I'll give you more details on that when we come back from the break

If anyone likes to would like to join us in the air our email address as I said is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

chris Arnzen a gmail .com Please give us as always your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence

If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away

We'll be right back with Martin McGill and grace and assurance the message of the canons of Dort part 2

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

Martin McGone. And we are discussing his book, Grace and Assurance, The Message of the Canons of Dort, Part 2.

And Martin, I can't believe it. I just looked at the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio archive.

We actually did Part 1 in December of 2018. I find that hard to believe that that much time has flown by.

December 7th, 2018 is when we aired Part 1 of this discussion.

If anybody would like to join us live, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And while our listeners are waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you,

Martin, I'd like you to just give an overview of what is next in the

Canons of Dort. I don't know if you've finished what you'd like to say about Canons 3 and 4, but Canons 5 would be one that we haven't addressed in this program yet.

No, we have only scratched the surface of Canons 3 and 4, but I can talk about Canons 5 for a moment as well.

Sure. Canons 5 of The Perseverance of the

Saints. And again, I want to read from The Remonstrance of 1610.

That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith and have thereby become partakers of his life -giving spirit have thereby full power to strive against Satan's sin in the world and their own flesh and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the

Holy Ghost and that Jesus Christ assists them through his spirit and all temptations extends to them his hand and, here's the crucial part, if only they are ready for the conflict and desire his help and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ's hand according to the word of Christ.

John 10, 28, Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. And then the next part.

But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the

Holy Scriptures before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our minds.

So the Arminians said, it's possible for believers to persevere if they are willing to cooperate with God's grace, which he offers to help them persevere.

And then they also said that they're not willing to commit themselves to the question, can a true believer fall away and perish?

So at that point in 1610, they weren't able to commit to that. But at 1618, they did actually teach that true believers can and do fall away and perish.

And so the fifth head of doctrine teaches that it is impossible for a true saint of God to fall away from salvation and perish.

Yeah, that is why, as you probably know, there are many professing

Christians who believe in four of the five points of Arminianism and do not like to be labeled

Arminians. Some of them get vehemently angry about this. They say they're

Biblicists. They are not Arminians. And it primarily is in regard, I think, to the fact that they don't want to be associated with the fact that you could lose your salvation.

Now, obviously, there are many others within Christendom who do believe you could lose your salvation amongst the

Wesleyan Arminians and many of the Pentecostals and Charismatics and so on. But do we not have to be very clear, we who are

Reformed, when we talk about the perseverance of the saints, we have to be very clear to destroy a stereotype that exists about this view that is actually taught, tragically, by many

Christians who perhaps want to run so far away from the works righteousness of Rome that they wind up in an opposite heresy because they're not using the

Scriptures as their guide as they're running away from Rome. And they teach, in an easy believism, a cheap grace where as long as somebody recites a prayer, at Bible camp, when they're seven years old, that says that they believe there is a sinner and they accept

Jesus into their heart, that latter part, which is nowhere found in the Bible, they are told, they are to be convinced and confident that they are saved for the rest of their lives, even if they live to 110, and in a totally unrepentant and licentious life, even to the degree of satanic life, they are told they are going to heaven because of this prayer.

Now we have to separate ourselves from that because that is not at all a historic Reformed teaching, nor is it a

Biblical teaching. Am I correct? You're absolutely correct. The Fifth Head of Doctrine does not begin with the assertion that once saved, always saved, that kind of idea.

The Fifth Head of Doctrine begins by explaining what conversion is and what it results in.

I'll just read to you the first article. Whom God calls, according to his purpose, to the communion of his

Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. And regenerates by the Holy Spirit, he delivers also from the dominion and slavery of sin in this life.

Notice, the dominion and slavery of sin. Though not altogether from the body of sin and from the infirmities of the flesh, so long as they continue in this world.

So, Article 1 teaches that God, in saving us, regenerates us and delivers us from the dominion and power of sin.

Although not perfectly, we're not perfectly sanctified in this life, but we are truly converted.

And then Article 2 says, Hence spring daily sins of infirmity, and hence spots adhere to the best works of the saints, which furnish them with constant matter for humiliation before God.

So it's humbling to realize how sinful you are, and still are, in your flesh.

And flying for refuge to Christ crucified, for mortifying the flesh more and more by the spirit of prayer and by the holy exercises of piety, and for pressing forward to the goal of perfection, till being at length delivered from this body of death, they are brought to reign with the

Lamb of God in heaven. So this is perseverance of the saints.

It's not preservation of hypocrites, or preservation of unbelievers, or preservation of those who walk in sin.

And in fact, if you read through the 5th Head of Doctrines, you'll discover that God deals very severely and harshly with His children when they walk deliberately in sin.

He chastises them to bring them back to repentance, but He never abandons them completely, and permits them to go lost.

The issue of the phrase you used, which is a favorite phrase of many of our fundamentalist friends, once saved, always saved.

Isn't that, even though we who are Reformed don't use that phrase as a buzz phrase, we don't have it as a part of our

Christianese. Technically, it is a true statement, is it not? But the difference is, even though once we are saved, we truly will always be saved, the problem is that people think that once they believe they are saved, they always will truly be saved.

And you can believe you're saved, and be really seriously wrong about that, can you not?

Of course, we're presupposing here that the person in question is actually truly converted.

Just because you held up your hand at a rally and accepted Jesus, so -called, at an altar call does not mean that you are truly converted.

I mean, Christ speaks about the parable of the sower. There are various responses to the gospel, one of which is initial excitement, but no root, the stony ground.

That's the kind of person you're describing when you speak of someone who gets excited at one of these rallies, puts up their hand up, goes up to the front, and has no idea what they're doing.

They have an emotional reaction to hearing something or experiencing something. Then when they go home and realize what

Christianity actually is, and how it brings persecution and opposition, and it costs them something in their life, then they drop it like a hot potato.

And they think, oh, I was saved 15 years ago at a rally, I'm still saved today. No, you're not, because you weren't saved in the first place.

Right. Yes, and unfortunately, they have typically a lot of Christian friends who are encouraging them in the notion that they are still saved, even if they happen to be involved in some very serious, scandalous sin, unrepentantly.

And of course, not only serious, scandalous sin sends people to hell. Any sin sends people to hell if they don't have the blood of Christ covering them.

But you will have the most openly rebellious people to the Christian faith being told, well, we know that he's a believer, or not a believer, but we know that he's a saved person who will be in heaven one day, because I remember when he raised his hand in Bible camp.

But it even goes beyond that. You could be outwardly, seemingly, apparently to everybody surrounding you, a vibrant, active church believer, church attender, church member, you could even be a pastor who has authored dozens of books.

And it turns out, after years of, on the outside, looking like you're faithfully following Christ, the person gives up the faith and just lives the remainder of their days in a hellish manner outside of Christ.

I happen to know of some circumstances where men who are pastors, who are even authors, who believe very close, if not nearly identically, what you and I believe, who totally abandon the faith and are now living as atheists.

I mean, this does happen, which proves that they never really were born again to begin with, no matter what kind of evidence fooled everyone around them.

Am I right? True, and the person in question would know that, because the hypocrite knows he's a hypocrite.

Yeah, I don't know of anybody like that myself, but yeah, that can happen. But the

Canons of Dorrit are not speaking about hypocrites, they're speaking about those who are truly converted. And their point is, when

God begins the work of salvation in someone, he brings it to completion. Amen, and you used a word that I think is a very important element of this concept.

You used the word preservation, because it's God who's preserving his elect.

I have had conversations with anti -Calvinist fundamentalists who think when we say persevering, the perseverance of the saints, that man, through his struggle and battle with the world, flesh, and the devil, and the effort that is involved to persevere to the end, that we are somehow meriting our salvation.

And it's kind of absurd that I've heard that argument from anti -Calvinists, when we don't even believe the human will is involved in our regeneration or justification at all.

So, I mean, it's kind of odd that then we're getting a Roman Catholic bomb thrown at us on this end of the spectrum.

It's kind of strange, isn't it? Yes. Article 3 of Head 5 says,

By reason of these remains of indwelling sin, and the temptations of sin and of the world, those who are converted could not persevere in a state of grace if left to their own strength.

But God is faithful, who having conferred grace, mercifully confirms and powerfully preserves them therein, even to the end.

So the issue is not, am I powerful enough to keep myself in salvation? Absolutely I'm not.

The issue is God's grace enables us to persevere.

God's grace causes us to persevere. He preserves us. Now, how do you respond to the issue at hand, where there are well -meaning

Christians outside of the Reformed faith, outside of Calvinism, who in their efforts, and I would say misguided and not biblically trained efforts, but in their efforts to defend the integrity and holiness and righteousness of God, they seek to distance

God from the decree of sin to occur.

We know as Reformed Christians that there is nothing that can ever happen in heaven and on earth that is not decreed by God Himself.

He orchestrated and ordained all that happens to happen, and nothing can stop what

He has ordained from happening. And they recoil in horror to that notion because they think we are accusing

God of actually tempting people into sin or making people against their will sin, forcing people against their will sin, or even on the other end of the spectrum, forcing people against their will to believe rather than making them willing, as the

Scriptures teach, giving them new hearts, which makes them irresistibly drawn to the

Lord. But they see this as not only forcing people against their will to sin, forcing people against their will to follow

Christ, and in essence making men robots. That is the classic kind of phraseology many

Arminians or non -Calvinists will use. How do you respond to that? In a number of ways.

If you believe God is sovereign, which means He rules over everything, without exception, if you are going to say

God is sovereign over everything except sin, then God is sovereign over almost nothing, because almost everything, at least as far as mankind goes, is sin.

All the activities of all unbelievers are sinful, and many of the activities of believers are sinful, and all the activities of believers are at least polluted by sin.

So if God is only sovereign over non -sins, then

God is sovereign over nothing. And do you really want to go down that road?

Then of course, that's more of a philosophical argument, I would go to the Scriptures, I would go, for example, to Acts chapter 2, verse 23, speaking of Christ, Him, that is

Christ, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

So there Peter is talking about the cross, and all the actions that brought

Christ to the cross, and he doesn't hesitate to say that Christ was ordained to the cross by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.

And then he says, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

So God was able to use wicked instruments to bring Christ to the cross, which was the greatest sin in history, the crucifixion of Christ, the greatest sin in history, and yet God was sovereign over that sin, and God ordained that sin, and all the circumstances around that sin, and all the people who were involved in that sin, and yet they were wicked and He was righteous.

And the same thing is true in Acts chapter 4, where it says in verse 27,

Acts 4, 27, For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus whom thou hast anointed, both

Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

So all the actions of Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, the

Roman soldiers who nailed Christ to the cross, and so on, who mocked Him, and spat upon Him, and all the rest of it, the people of Israel, the

Sanhedrin, and the ordinary people who cried, crucify Him, crucify Him, in the courtyard, they were all gathered together to do whatever

God determined to be done. The apostles don't hesitate to say that.

That's God's sovereignty. And yet, the Bible will still say that all those activities were sinful, and all those people were responsible for what they did, and will be punished by God for what they did, without at all taking away from God's righteousness or holiness.

And we have to go to our midway break right now. This is the longer than normal break that we have on Iron Trip from Zion Radio, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, airs this program in a pre -recorded fashion twice a day, and they need this midway break to air their own

Lake City, Florida, public service announcements and commercials to localize my show to Lake City, Florida, while I air my commercials that are heard globally.

So please be patient as we take this long break. Use this time to write down questions for Martin McGeown on the

Canons of Dort. Also use this time to write down information provided by our advertisers, because the more you, the more frequently you patronize our advertisers, and the more heavily you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they will remain our advertisers, which means the more likely

Iron Trip from Zion Radio will remain on the air, because we depend on our advertisers to survive.

In fact, I'm so delighted that those who have orchestrated Dort400 .org

have advertised this event coming up on April 25th, 26th, and 27th, just coming up shortly.

They have advertised this on our program, and that all helps Iron Trip and Zion Radio to remain in existence.

So please write down the information provided by our advertisers, and send us a question for Martin McGeown at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence, if you live outside of the good old

USA. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Masters Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

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Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

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I know I'm gonna be attending this event coming up because it's my pastor's luncheon. It is the luncheon that I have at least twice a year now.

The Iron Sherpins Iron Radio pastor's luncheon. I typically have one in the spring and one in the winter. This will be the spring pastor's luncheon for Iron Sherpins Iron Radio Thursday May 23rd from 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall here in Carlisle Pennsylvania featuring our guest speaker

Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He is going to be speaking about how the Dead Sea Scrolls vindicate the reliability of the

Bible. And if you would like to attend, if you are a man in ministry leadership, this is exclusively for men this luncheon, whether you are a pastor, an elder, and I happen to believe those are the same office, a deacon or a leader in parachurch ministry, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line and we will register you to attend this free event.

Everything is free, not only the admission, the food, and we are giving away thousands of dollars worth of free books, brand new books from every major publisher in, well should

I say almost every major publisher in the United States, every major Christian publisher in the

United States that is, and also nearly every major Christian publisher in the United Kingdom are providing books for us to give away, including the

Reform Free Publishing Association who has been very faithful in giving us books to give away at this event.

They are the publishers of my guest's book, I'm talking about Martin McGowan who is our guest today, and they published

Grace and Assurance, the message of the Canons of Dort. So if you'd like to register, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. It's Thursday, May 23rd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the

Carlisle Fire and Rescue banquet hall, Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Then coming up in later in May, in fact the very next week,

May 28th through the 30th at the Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, the Banner of Truth is having their

East Coast Ministers Conference and I intend to be there as well. The theme is I believe in the

Holy Spirit and the speakers include Jeff Kingswood who is going to be my guest, God willing, on Tuesday the 23rd of April, so mark your calendars for that.

Terry Johnson who is also going to be a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron radio on Monday the 6th of May, so keep your calendars marked for that.

David Vaughn, I'm still waiting to hear back from David Vaughn, he is a missionary, a Reformed Baptist missionary in France.

Stephen J. Nichols who is the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late R .C.

Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. Michael Morales and Chad Vegas and we do have

Chad Vegas also scheduled for an interview in the upcoming future and I can't

I can't seem to find where he is scheduled right now but he is going to be, God willing, on the calendar and so if you'd like to join me on at this very important conference, the

East Coast Ministers Conference of the Banner of Truth, I believe in the Holy Spirit, May 28th through the 30th, go to banneroftruth .org

banneroftruth .org and I just found Chad Vegas's date for his interview, it is a week from today, Monday April 8th,

Chad Vegas will be on Iron Sharpens Iron radio. So please go to banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org

and click on events, then click on East Coast Ministers Conference. They have other conferences that they are running in different parts of the

United States and also in the United Kingdom so whatever conference you feel more comfortable attending, whatever is closest to you, you may go to that conference but I happen to be scheduled to attend the

East Coast Ministers Conference and would love to see as many of you as possible there in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, May 28th through the 30th, banneroftruth .org

Finally, I am also scheduled to be in attendance at thefoundationsconference .com

I love this conference and I hope that you will love it too and if you want to attend

I would strongly urge you to register very quickly because they only can hold 200 people or so in the venue there in Manhattan.

The speakers include Dr. Stephen J Lawson who you just heard advertising New Covenant Church NYC, one of our advertisers.

He is the founder of One Passion Ministries and a powerful, powerful preacher. Paul Washer, another extraordinary preacher, is on the roster.

Reverend Jeff Thomas, one of my favorite preachers from Wales. He's now retired from pastoral ministry and spending most of his time traveling around the world preaching.

Reverend Armand Tomassian, I think will be a household name over the next decade. He is a young pastor and has preaching gifts and abilities far beyond his youth that I am convinced he is going to become a household name very soon, amongst

Reformed Christians anyway. Really extraordinary. Richard Caldwell is also our guest,

I mean is also going to be speaking at the foundations conference.

This is a conference by the way of Sermon Audio, if I hadn't said that before. Richard Caldwell, by the way, you down now for June 26th,

Wednesday June 26th, because Richard will be a guest on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. And Andrew Quigley, a person who

I have not yet heard preached to my memory, but I'm sure that he's excellent if Sermon Audio has selected him for their conference.

For more details on registering for this conference, which is December 19th and 20th 2019, go to thefoundationsconference .com

and please tell them that you heard about the conference from Chris Arnsen on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

I hope to see you there. Last but not least, if you love Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio and you don't want the program to disappear from the airwaves, please go to ironsherpanzironradio .com,

click support, then click click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card.

We really do need your donations. We are in urgent need of them. We have some very important bills that are not yet paid that need to be paid and we need your help to do so.

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click support, then click click to donate now. Always remember, never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church where you are a member in order to give to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

Never do that. Never give, never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

Those two things are commands of God, providing for church and home. Providing for my show is not a command of God, but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those commands and you love this show, please donate as frequently as you can and as heavily as you can at ironsherpanzironradio .com,

click support, then click to click to donate now. And then you could also send in a check via the snail mail to the address that you will see appear on the screen when you click on support at ironsherpanzironradio .com

and that address will appear. You can send that check made out to ironsherpanzironradio .com to that address and if you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line because we really do need your advertising dollars as well, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe.

If you're not a member of a local Bible believing church and you're not even prayerfully seeking for one, you are living in rebellion against God.

If you need help finding a church home, I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and have helped a number of people find churches near to where they live or even where they're going on vacation.

So please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and I need a church or something similar in the subject line and I will help you find a church from the lists

I have of biblically faithful churches all over the world. Now you also use that same email address chrisarnsen at gmail .com

to send us a question to martinmegione that is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com and please as always give us your first name, city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Martin, we do have a listener from let's see where the listener is from.

The listener is from Asheboro, North Carolina. His name is Grady and Grady says, a much -needed show

Chris. I walked an aisle at the age of 11 because I didn't want to go to hell. For 22 years

I thought I was a Christian even though I lived a sinful life with no guilt.

Through the grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ he reached down and convicted me of my need for him at the age of 33.

Today, 32 years later, I find here in Southern America just about anyone you ask will tell you they're a

Christian and when you ask questions it's based on walking an aisle, baptism, or joining a church.

Further questioning, you typically find they don't have a relationship with Christ. Do you find this in most areas of America?

Well our guest Grady is from Limerick, Ireland so I'll ask him if he sees that in Limerick, Ireland that same situation.

It may not be people who are raised in Protestant homes like in the Bible Belt but probably

Roman Catholic people who think perhaps they are saved or Christians or however they want to describe it but but I'll leave that to you to answer

Martin. Most people in Limerick that I have come across are

Roman Catholic and I would say that the average Irish Roman Catholic is grossly ignorant of not only the

Bible but also of what Roman Catholicism actually teaches. If I asked them do they believe that they're

Christians they would say yes because they belong to the Roman Catholic Church to some degree or another.

They've been baptized there, they attend there occasionally, they expect to go to heaven because they do good works.

But yeah there are a lot of people who think they're Christians who have no understanding of what

Christianity actually is. Well thank you Grady and please give us your full mailing address in Asheboro, North Carolina because you have just won a free copy of the book that we are addressing by Martin McGowan Grace and Assurance, The Message of the

Canons of Dort, compliments of our friends at the Reformed Free Publishing Association and their website if you want to find out more about them is

RFPA .org RF for Reform Free, PA for Publishing Association .org

and by the way our friends at CVBBS .com Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to us so thank you very much for the excellent question.

Let's see here we do have another listener we have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County Pennsylvania and Susan Margaret says even if Christians are wrong about whether or not we can lose our salvation isn't it better to have the fear that they can lose their salvation than to have a glib attitude and a false sense of assurance and security that they are saved when they are not.

Well basically you're talking about the lesser of two evils I guess is that do you believe that that is the lesser of two evils to believe that you could lose your salvation rather than to have a a false assurance?

Well both are errors and there's there's there's no merit to holding an error whether one error is worse than another error that's for people to judge

I suppose. If you believe that you can lose your salvation then you have to ask yourself the question if I can lose my salvation what must

I do to keep my salvation and the answer will have to be works. So what you're saying is that you're you're saved by works that your continued salvation depends upon your performance which means that your salvation is conditioned upon you.

Well what about the the person the Arminian the Roman Catholic the member of a cult perhaps who says well

I'm not saying that it has to do with works it's the people that actually lose their salvation would be those who abandon

Christ and it would be a matter of the heart and mind not necessarily their deeds.

How would you respond to that kind of a argument? Well what they're saying is that they're preserving that their persevering and salvation is dependent upon their continuing to walk with the

Lord and walking with the Lord is by definition doing good work. It is a good work to walk with the

Lord it is a good work to walk with the Lord. I think we have there's a lot of confusion about what a good work is.

A good work is not necessarily something very exciting or something very spectacular or something showy.

A good work is simply to obey God's commandments, to walk with the

Lord, to walk in faith, to seek to glorify

God. Those are good works those are the those are fruits and what you're saying is that you're being a

Christian depends upon your performance upon your continuing to walk with the

Lord which is I would say good work. Whereas the

Scriptures teach that we are saved by grace and that our salvation does not depend upon us and absolutely the inevitable fruit of our justification is is good works.

Well we are not justified by our good works and our continued salvation does not depend upon our good work.

Well thank you Susan in Dauphin Susan Margaret in Dauphin County Pennsylvania. You've also won a free copy of the books of the book that we are addressing today

Grace and Assurance the Message of the Canons of Dort so please give us your full mailing address so that CVBBS .com

can ship that out to you and once again we thank the Reform Free Publishing Association for providing us with these free copies.

So now I'd like you to get more into what you definitely don't want to overlook in your opinion in regard to the fifth canon of the

Canons of Dort or in general about everything that you've been speaking about if you think that you've overlooked something that you definitely want to have penetrated in the consciences of our listeners today.

Well there's so much you could talk about. We were on the third and fourth head and we were on the fifth head.

What I want to emphasize in the third and fourth head is that regeneration is entirely the work of God and it's something that is absolutely necessary for salvation as Christ said, except the man be born again you cannot see or enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The new birth is not something that man does or something that man cooperates in or something that God does in response to what man does.

The work of regeneration is God's sovereign work. I want to read from Ted 3 .4

article 12 and this is the regeneration so highly celebrated in Scripture and denominated a new creation a resurrection from the dead a making alive which

God works in us without our aid but this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel by moral suasion or such a mode of operation that after God has performed his part it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not to be converted or to continue unconverted but it is evidently a supernatural work most powerful and at the same time most delightful astonishing mysterious and ineffable not inferior in efficacy to creation or the resurrection from the dead as the scripture inspired by the author of this work declares so that all in his heart

God works in this marvelous manner are certainly infallibly and effectually regenerated and do actually believe whereupon the will thus renewed is not only actuated and influenced by God but in consequence of this influence becomes itself active wherefore also man is himself rightly said to believe and repent by virtue of that grace received that's regeneration regeneration does not happen because you put your hand up at a rally or some kind of a evangelistic meeting it's a work of God and the canons here not only describe it but they praise

God for it it's almost like a hymn of praise to God for that great work of regeneration now you just reminded me of something and you're in this way that you phrased the false notion that people think they become regenerated or regenerate by raising their hand isn't it true that even if you and I are vehemently opposed to some of the mechanics of what has been called the invitation system especially that which is resembling

Charles Finney's anxious bench altar calls those kinds of things where people are being told because they've raised their hand and because they've walked forward that they are born again even though we disagree with that could not and does not the

Lord use at times perhaps even often in spite of the errors and fallacies of the actions and teachings of men there are people who raise their hands at revival meetings because they have become regenerate not not that they have become regenerate after raising their hand but the

Lord has sought fit to give them new life even if they're sitting in a meeting that is filled with mixed truths and half truths and falsehoods

I even know people who have written against the invitation system and against Arminianism who will actually admit that they were saved at an

Arminian revival meeting or crusade of some kind I mean God is sovereign he he chooses where he brings new life to people even if it's in surroundings that don't agree with us theologically am

I right on that Oh God can use a crooked stick to draw a straight line as they say but that doesn't justify going to such a meeting oh of course not that's false doctrine because God is not glorified in such in such false doctrine which the calendars of Dort would call heresy

God uses the truth and so I wouldn't encourage someone to go to such a meeting but I suppose it's theoretically possible that God could use that for his own purposes of course yes

I even know of at least one person who was brought to salvation because they started reading the

Bible for the first time very vigorously and enthusiastically and the reason they began doing that is because of Jehovah's Witness challenged them to do so now the

Jehovah's Witness who who instigated the person to start reading in their

Bible is as lost as lost can be and is a heretic and a false believer etc but God still had chose to save this person who is not a

Jehovah's Witness I just want to add that he's a a Bible believing Christian and has a very credible testimony of faith but but the the beginnings of his journey as a

Christian started with a false teacher at the door who just urged him to read the

Bible yes yes and I've heard a story where an unbelieving professor in a university read

Jonathan Edwards sermon sinners in the hands of an angry God to his class to show to show them how horrible

Christians are and someone was converted to reading it so you know God could do all kinds of things yes the example that you gave at least the means by which the person was converted was reading the

Bible right it may have come from an unbeliever who told her to read the Bible but he read the

Bible and the Bible is that which God uses to bring his people to faith amen and in fact by the way

I know a pastor a Reformed pastor who came to understand the doctrines of sovereign grace he was already a

Christian he was an Arminian who came to the embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace when an unbelieving college professor was reading

Jonathan Edwards sinners in the hands of an angry God as a example of American church

American history you know because obviously Jonathan Edwards is an important is an important figure in American history so it was interesting

Providence there but we have to go to our final break right now this is gonna be a lot shorter than the last one so if anybody wants to send in a question do it now and do it quickly because we're running out of time it's

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and as always please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter that's

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com don't go away we'll be back with a conclusion of our interview with Mark McGill on the cannons of Dort right after these messages hi

I'm Stefan Lindblad assistant professor of systematic theology at IRBS theological seminary in Mansfield Texas I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths indeed future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people if you want to learn more about our program visit us online at IRBS seminary org

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching

God's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a Sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our

Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together hi I'm pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

that's linbrookbaptist .org Did you know that all believers are priests?

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today. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

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We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

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We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750.

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Gospel of Sovereign Grace. Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org. Welcome back.

This is our final 15 minutes or so of the program, our interview with Martin McGown, author of Grace and Assurance, The Message of the

Canons of Dort. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, please do it quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

We have, let's see here, we have Robert in White Plains, New York.

Robert says, I know people who think that they are lost and headed for hell, even though everything that I can see about their lives would be confirming that they are truly born again.

They fear that they are not of the elect, even though that they have repented and believed upon the name of Christ.

They are connected to the local church where they are members, living faithfully in every way that I can see, and yet they have this constant terror that God has not chosen them.

Should a person who believes in the doctrine of unconditional election ever be plagued by such paranoia?

They should not, but there are some who are plagued by such doubts.

My book is called Grace and Assurance for a reason, and one of the major themes of the

Canons of Dort is actually the assurance of salvation. The theologians at Dort insisted that it was the ordinary experience of believers to be assured, not only of their present salvation, but also of their eternal and unconditional election and their certain perseverance to the end.

And actually, Head 1, we looked at last time, Head 1, Article 16, addresses exactly that question.

People who are afraid that they might be reprobates, and I want to read a little bit from that.

Much less, this is halfway through that article, much less cause have they to be terrified by the doctrine of reprobation, who though they seriously desire to be turned to God, to please him only, and to be delivered from the body of death, cannot yet reach that measure of holiness and faith to which they aspire, since a merciful

God has promised that he will not quench the smoking flax nor break the bruised reed.

And someone who is a bruised reed or a smoking flax is tormented by the idea that because of their imperfections and their corruption, that they might not be a true believer.

But a true believer is really the only one who's really that concerned about such things.

A hypocrite, an unbeliever, doesn't care. The unbeliever is not the person who's going to call you up if you're a pastor and say,

I think I might be a reprobate. A true reprobate doesn't care. And so they ought not to be concerned.

They ought to be comforted, and they ought to simply believe, and stop looking at themselves, because this is what happens, they look at themselves, and look at Christ.

Look to Christ, don't look to yourself, don't look to your works, because your works are like my works, your works are a small beginning of the new obedience, as the

Heidelberg Catechism puts it. Now, isn't it true though, having said what you said, that there are people who are terrified of hell?

I mean, this might be a minority of people, especially in the 21st century, but they are of a terror of hell.

In fact, we can remember from what we have learned of church history, Martin Luther, before he was regenerate, when he was still a

Roman Catholic monk, was terrified of hell, and was flagellating himself, whipping himself, and doing all kinds of things, because he had a terror of hell, and yet he had a damning theology.

He was not born again at that time in his life, and would spend hours and hours in the confessional booth for the sacrament of penance, until the priest would say, will you please just get out?

But isn't it true that somebody can truly fear hell, and yet not embrace

Christ as their only hope? Perhaps they want God under their own terms, perhaps they want a religion under their own understanding of how things should be, or you could go on and on and on of what the reason might be.

That's true. That person is not believing. That person is trusting in himself. That person is saying, well,

I think I'm going to go to hell, but I think I can probably work a bit harder and maybe not end up going to hell.

In which case, they're not trusting in Christ, they're trusting in themselves. But the person that your questioner was describing,

I don't know this person obviously, but he said that they believe, and that they repent, and they live a godly life.

As far as he can see, they're truly a believer, and yet they're terrified of going to hell, they're terrified they're not truly believers.

Those are the kind of people I'm talking about. If you appear to outsiders to be true believers,

I think the judgment of charity would demand that, if that's the case, that you should encourage that person to look to Christ, and not to be guilty of introspection and examining your own navel, as it were.

Yes, I was just speaking about a different category of people that are fearful of hell, not somebody reflective of what our listener was talking about.

Yeah, well, yeah, they kind of talk about those people too. Right. They kind of talk about all kinds of things.

I mean, for example, it says at the end of that article I mentioned, but this doctrine is justly terrible to those who, regardless of God and the

Savior Jesus Christ, have wholly given themselves up to the cares of the world and the pleasures of the flesh, so long as they are not seriously converted to God.

So they kind of do not say to everyone, oh don't worry, it's fine, but it's talking about people who actually evidence the fruit of the

Spirit, that they actually are sorry for their sins, and they actually do seriously want to please

God. Other people who don't really care about God, but they might be afraid of hell.

Those are a different category altogether. We have an anonymous listener who asks,

Do you not think at times, however, even in light of what you just said, that when someone approaches us who may appear to be a

Christian to us, who asks, do you think I'm saved?

I am worried that I am not a true born -again Christian. Can we not at times reply with the words, perhaps you're not?

Well, I suppose you could, but it's not a very helpful response. I mean,

I would ask the person questions like, you know, do you believe in Jesus Christ?

Are you truly sorry for your sins? Do you love God? Do you seek to please

Him? Why do you think you're not truly born again? I would explore those kind of questions rather than just agree with the person he's not born again.

Well, I'm not sure our listener was saying that's the only thing that you should say. Of course, of course, of course.

They kind of say in Head 3 -4, Article 15, With respect to those who make an external profession of faith and live regular lives, we are bound, after the example of the

Apostle, to judge and speak of them in the most favorable manner, for the secret recesses of the heart are unknown to us.

Now, do you think that, before we run out of time, that sometimes a person who is constantly worried about their salvation, now obviously it could be that they have a very biblically sound and healthy understanding of sin, and therefore they're very sensitive to the fact that they're of their sin in their lives, but sometimes, as you just really mentioned earlier, just a few minutes ago, or seconds ago, about people being morbidly introspective, you know, always meditating upon their navels and so on, they could be guilty of a sin of being too self -absorbed, that they really have to cast not only their cares about Christ, but be more concerned with the lives of their brothers and sisters, and also the lost, and throw their energies and activities into Christian works of charity and so on, to probably get their mind off of themselves.

I'm talking about the person that we were talking about before, that is demonstrating all the attributes of a true believer, but is constantly paranoid about being saved.

Yes, that's true. The person, first of all, should stop looking at himself and look to Christ, and then, having looked at Christ, he should look around and say, well, how can

I serve the other people of the Church? And then, finally, they can think about themselves, because, yeah, selfishness and self -absorption,

I mean, that kind of thing will lead to introspection and being concerned about one's salvation.

But the key is, look away from yourself to Christ. Amen. You're not the

Savior, Christ is the Savior. Amen. Well, we are out of time, and I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the contact information that they need for you.

First of all, the website for the

Limerick Reformed Fellowship in Limerick, Ireland, and I just had it in front of me a few seconds ago, and then somehow it disappeared.

Can you give me that? Limerickreformed .com. Limerickreformed .com.

Yeah, very easy to remember. Limerickreformed .com. Yes, as easy it is to remember,

I somehow forgot. And we have the Reform Free Publishing Association, rfpa .org,

rfpa .org. Also, don't forget about the website for DORT 400, the conference coming up from April 25th through the 27th.

That is dort400 .org. DORT, D as in David, O -R -D as in David, T, 400 .org.

I want to thank you so much, Pastor Martin McGowan, and I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write.

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.