Machen - Christianity And Liberalism [Chapter 3]

The Gospel Requires Knowing God and Man

Is as we consider these things this morning and I pray that you'd bless each one here and cause us to reflect on your kindness your loving kindness your patience toward us. Father. We pray for these things in Jesus name.

Amen. So do you guys get a copy of the quiz. Some of you did. Some of you. Yes. Build us. Okay. Number one. In order to understand the gospel one must know something about God. And man. That's profound.

I don't know who wrote that question. But he's fired. Well I think the first couple. You know. That's usually how you you draw people in on these quizzes. You start super easy. You lure them in and then you whack them on the head.

So one must know something. I mean what do you do if you if you start preaching the gospel to somebody. How. How can you give them the gospel without talking about the nature of God. The nature of man would try.

You think why do you. What do you think somebody would say false. You know what. In a sense you could make this false. Right. Because you could say one must know something. Well I'm going to falsify it by saying you know one must know something biblical about God.

A lot of people think they know about God. Right. But it's just their own opinion. So you know I guess you know if Dave were here he could argue for the false side. And he wouldn't be crazy. Mages says this.

He says certain presuppositions. Presupposition is something. What. And don't use the word to define it. What's a presupposition. Okay. Something you know beforehand. I mean a lot of people say something like a presupposition is something you yeah.

And I hate that. It's not something you presuppose. Something you know beforehand. Yeah. Certain presuppositions must be accepted. The Christian gospel consists in an account. I don't know about that.

I'd say of an account of how God saved man. And before that gospel can be understood. Something must be known. Number one about God. Number two about man. I mean if we just get back to the uh what were they called the four.

Oh yeah four W's. And the first two were who is God and who is man. Right. Unless you understand those things. I mean how do you get the good news if you don't get the bad news. And the bad news is God is holy man is sinful.

No the good news is really bad news for unsaved people. Right. I mean when they hear it and it bounces off their forehead. Yeah the gospel is everything the unbeliever doesn't want. Right. I'm gonna write that down.

That's good. Wes. That could be a book. Good book good bug title a good book title. Everything you don't want the gospel of Jesus Christ. I like that morning Dan grab a donut and a quiz. Or a quiz. Donut number two.

Christianity and Liberalism Are Opposed in Their View of God and Man

True or false. The conclusions of Christianity and liberalism about God and man are opposite. Or we could say opposed. True. And isn't it interesting. I mean I like all these memes I see these days you know that show wolves and sheep's clothing and you know literal wolves and sheep's clothing like it's just a wolf with a sheep over sheepskin over it or something.

And I'm like that's what liberals do. They try to pretend like they're Christians but in reality they're very much opposed to the gospel. Machen says the doctrine of God and the doctrine of man are the two great presuppositions of the gospel.

We already talked about that with regard to these presuppositions as with regard to the gospel itself modern liberalism is diametrically opposed to Christianity. I mean just imagine saying that to your liberal friends your liberal Christian friends you are an enemy of the gospel.

That's that's probably not going to go over. Well but that's what he's saying. Liberalism. We should not. I mean this is how I just put this here. Liberalism quote we should not seek how to know God or to seek to know God but should merely feel his presence.

When I thought about that I could I could hear a very familiar voice in my life talking about a given talk a given song a given movie a given place. Like you know you go to the Grand Canyon. And this person would always say that something was inspired and from that they meant it had something to do with God with the divine.

But it wasn't God. It was just something that moved them. But I think that's liberalism. Liberalism is all about feeling. He says with regard to this objection it ought to be observed that if religion consists merely in feeling the presence of God in other words the opposite of knowing him it is devoid of any moral quality whatever pure feeling.

If there be such a thing is non-moral or the correct word would be amoral. Not immoral but amoral. When something is amoral it has zero morality not a positive or a negative. It's just middling. It has no moral sense whatsoever.

Um I mean it's kind of hard to even come up with. How many of you have sat in liberal churches. A few. I mean can you think of anything that. Do you remember anything about it. Brian. Okay. I mean I've honestly never sat in a liberal church.

Um I would I don't even know if I'd call that liberal. That's a good question. I think that would be liberal. Yeah an episcopal church with a lesbian pastor. I mean I don't know how many. How you get much more liberal than that.

Okay let's talk about that. What is a liberal church. A liberal Christian. What is that. What does it mean. I mean that's kind of interesting. Because he doesn't have to do that. Because liberalism was hot and heavy.

You know nobody nobody says well you know what I can't say. Nobody says that. I remember being on a cruise. In fact my friend Eddie was on this cruise because we were we were playing diplomacy on that cruise.

And I remember us sitting at a table one night and they'd arranged it so that there was a Mormon couple. I think an Episcopalian couple a charismatic couple and Janet and I were at this one table again.

And so Eddie comes over and he says uh how do you all all you Christians get along. He goes you know explain it to me. The pagan dog is that's what Eddie calls himself. And so this one couple says well we're LDS.

And I'm thinking to myself okay so non-christians. Right. I already know that. Um and then uh the Pentecostal couple. I mean they were. They spent the whole week we were out there gambling and uh drinking.

What's that. Well yeah. But the Pentecostal co. I mean they were just like yeah. And it comes around to this other couple the I think they were Episcopalian and she just goes the the wife said of course not the husband.

She goes we're liberal and I just remember the way she just kind of lilted when she said that I was just like we're liberal. We we have no problem with anybody. What does liberalism mean. It means you want go ahead.

Wes. Were you gonna say something. Well I. And I'll get back to that in a minute. We'll talk about Saddleback in a minute. Um let me just throw out the initial thing and and you guys can maybe add to it.

A liberal church is one that has all the trappings of church. Right. But no gospel. No you know no law. A low view of god high view of man. Well yeah no discipline. Because that would be law. You know you don't want to do that.

Brian. Well the word liberal has a lot of connotations. But when it comes to Christianity I would say you know it they have the the form but not the substance. So they're deficient. Oh very much. So I mean it's like empty.

Wes. Yeah. But I but I think liberalism comes from I I mean my take on liberalism would be they're very liberal. And how they interpret scripture right. Which makes it easier to be right. Yes. Yeah. Simple.

Yeah. But but I mean I I think their default position would be people are right with god. Well that's you know babies are born in. I mean they would negate things like original sin. You know. And just.

Yeah I I I would agree with that. I'd say they're less theologically sound than the Roman Catholic Church which is really saying something. One sentence summary. You mean as far as what they do like the affirmative case for them.

Sure. Um liberal church prioritizes love unity and the brotherhood of man. And notice notice what's totally missing there. Yeah. I mean I mean you know. But so then you know love becomes this all-encompassing idea of Christ.

What he did. You know. And God without being you know really explicit about it. Because there's no need for that but unity. And sure in other words. In other words when we say when we say liberalism opposes Christianity.

We don't say it opposes everything in scripture. You know. And you know what do false teachers always do. They use the bible and then they twist it redefine it. You know. Um proof text that kind of thing.

So let me get back and then we can talk more about liberalism. Let me get back to Saddleback. Why isn't Saddleback. Why don't I call it a liberal church. I think it has liberal elements in it. Absolutely.

You know I mean they just ordained some female pastors here not too long ago. And they didn't just do one. They did three. Yeah Saddleback. Good question. What is Saddleback. Saddleback is a mega church in southern California where we used to take field trips and go down there.

What's that is Rick Warren purpose driven life. Purpose driven church purpose driven family purpose driven television purpose driven. You know I mean purpose driven trademark. Right. I mean it's he made he made the purpose driven life.

I think at one point was like I believe it sold more copies than Pilgrim's Progress. Yeah I mean it's like massive seller. You can google that and see if I'm wrong. But I think that's right because I think I seem to remember Rick Warren doing the humble brag on that.

You know it wasn't so humble but it was a brag. Um and with Saddleback since. Yeah these guys are gonna be coming in these troublemakers keep them out of our donuts. Yeah the preachers. I could talk about what happened last night but I won't for Brian's sake.

So Brian's like there he is looking like a preacher. Michael Bartlett. Oh so um Saddleback was formed this way. Okay. Rick Warren being a graduate of southwestern seminary I believe in Texas wanted to plant a church in southern California.

But he wanted to do things a little bit differently. He wanted to do things kind of you know Robert Shuler is probably not Bob Shuler was somebody who used to have a tv show and it's called the hour of power.

And what Shuler did was he had all the vestiges of like a Christian. I mean he wore he wore robes like he was a Presbyterian. Right. And he would always get up and give these any white hair and you know he looked very profound.

Um but he was a disciple of Norman Vincent Peale who you know basically the power of positive thinking. And so what Shuler would do is he would go through like hymnals and change it. You know saved a wretch like me you know and I don't remember what he changed to change it to but it was something like you know save something glorious like me or wouldn't even say saved.

Right. It was like you know. Um so it it's it was liberalism. I mean Shuler was liberal to the hilt. He just talked about how good people were and he was massively popular built something called the Crystal Cathedral which the Catholic Church now owns.

Yeah yeah. Um so anyway uh but Saddleback the way he started that was he did surveys of people down there in Orange County because Orange County is a place where there's a lot of money so it's a nice place to start a church if you can actually get one going.

Right. Get you know five ten people in your church that have money and boom you're off to the races. So he was like what do you want in a church. This is how he started the church. So it's the seeker sensitive model on steroids because we're going to run a survey to find out what people want and then we're going to like the king said give the people what they want.

Right. Um how many people remember that album all. Right. So it came out while I was overseas. So that's the idea. And so then what Saddleback is developed into is this massive campus down there in Orange County it's only a couple miles from where one of my sisters lives and it's sprawling and you go there and it's like everything Bethlehem Bible Church isn't.

I mean it's just this. Yeah I mean they've got a cafe bar in a separate building where you can sit and watch the services and stuff like that. They've got people in the parking lot you know. Because if you're parked in Mickey three or Daffy two or whatever.

Yeah you you need somebody to at least show you. You know. And do you have any kids. And I mean it's deluxe it it's deluxe right. It's like everything. Yeah it's it's like what you wish a shopping mall would be.

But you know and then you go in and the music is pro deluxe. I remember one time when we were there the the speaker was Steve Arterburn. Anybody know who he is. He's a Christian psychologist written a lot of books.

If you google him you'll go. Oh that's an impressive list of books. He was the speaker that morning and two things about it. One was his title was the god of second chances. Okay. Which when you think about it that's not a terrible title right.

Because anybody can be redeemed and so we can consider that second chance. Right. But Steve Arterburn says hi Daniel upstairs Steve Arterburn says God is in heaven ringing his hands hoping that you will make the right decision.

It was awful keep my eye on him because I don't want him stealing any doughnuts. Get my eye on you people. So then so so right before he gets up though you know the band does its thing and I mean they've got trombones.

They've got you know they've got it going on right. It's like a 12 -15 piece you know band and and you know all this other stuff. And Arterburn gets up and he goes wow how about that band. I feel like I'm in Las Vegas and I said like super loud like 10 times louder than that.

I go amen and everybody just turns around and looks at me like that is Saddleback and I won't tell you what Pastor Mike did after that service but but they so they'll have like five five six services a weekend.

Right. A couple on Saturday night and then you know all day Sunday and just and the basic premise of the place is we don't give people the gospel on Sunday we give them useful information you know things that will make their lives better.

And then during the week they offer classes where you know if you go frequently enough you can probably piece the gospel together. So is it a liberal place. It has a lot of liberal tendencies. Is it possible to get the gospel there if you work hard enough at it.

Yeah you know you can you can. But it's awful teaching. I mean just like he he did the parable of the soils. We were there one time and he just had back surgery or something like that. So he gets up and he does 10 minutes and then the band gets up and does a number and then he gets up and he does another 10 minutes and then the band does the number.

You know. And then he does another because he couldn't stand up that long. So instead of having somebody actually preach it was like that. And I thought this might be the future of you know church. Yeah that's fine.

Yeah. Oh it's just it's just awful. I mean it's it's really awful. It's pretty much the uh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the and the yes and the um the music you know it they could listen to anything. You know I mean sing.

The band could sing anything. It could be climb every mountain or you know whatever you know appeals to the music director. So I mean that's what Saddleback is. Is it liberalism. It's pretty close. It's pretty close.

Okay. Um non-moral liberalism. We talked a little bit about that. Let's just keep going. Number three. True or false. The only way to understand God is to read the bible. Okay. Well let's see what Machen says.

You want to say that that's true. The only way to understand God is to read the bible. And you also want to change the question to know God. Okay. But the question is understand God. Yes. You're getting quite liberal in your uh.

No. So you say true. How many others say true. Okay. Well I'm not changing. So then what. Let's go to the judges. You say true. How many say true. How many say false. How many are just you know going to be cowardly and not raise their hand at all.

Bill. For which one. Yeah it's just false. Okay. So. Yeah it's all right. It's it's good for us. Well let's see what Machen says. Some liberal preachers would say that we become acquainted with God only through Jesus.

That assertion has apparent an appearance of loyalty to our Lord but in reality is highly derogatory to him. For Jesus himself plainly recognized the validity of other ways of knowing God. And to reject those other ways is to reject the things that lay at the very center of Jesus's life.

Okay. Nature moral law and scriptures. That's correct. So we can't say scriptures alone. Right. Uh Machen said Jesus plainly found God's hand in nature the lilies of the field revealed to him the weaving of God.

He found God also in the moral law the law written in the hearts of men. Because that's God's law which revealed his righteousness. And finally Jesus plainly found God revealed in the scriptures. How profound was our Lord's use of the words of prophets and psalmists to say that such a revelation of God was invalid or useless to us today is to do.

Doesn't. And I really didn't like this. I kept reading it going this is just wrong is to do despite two things that lay closest to Jesus mind and heart. And I thought maybe that was just a misinterpolation of words there.

So I actually looked at what's printed there. And I'm like I don't know. Maybe despite was used differently than I don't know. Okay. Because okay he's made God known. Right. Wow look at these guys. Some of them brought their own congregation.

They're upstairs. Okay. Number four true or false. The phrase Jesus is God can be rendered meaningless. I mean I like that just because I thought. Okay plenty of people will say well that's true. I mean the Mormons will say that's true.

They just have a different definition of what God is. God is not eternal. God is a promotion. That's so weird to say man it's just bizarre. Machen says to say Jesus is God is meaningless unless the word God has an antecedent meaning.

Which means what. Yeah it's known before. Yes we were talking last night about uh the anti-Nicene church. What does that mean. It means the church before the Nicene creed. Okay so unless it has a meaning beforehand and the attached meaning of the word God is accomplished by the means which you have just mentioned.

I mean for example how would you prove that God is the God of nature the God of creation. Okay go to Genesis. You can go to where else can you go. How about Psalm 24. The earth is the Lord Lord's and all it contains.

You know that kind of that kind of statement. Okay number five. I mean some of this stuff is really really difficult. Number five. True or false. Rational theism is at the very heart of Christianity. True.

Machen says rational theism the knowledge of one supreme person maker an active ruler of the world is at the very root of Christianity. How else could you define rational theism. I don't know. What was your answer.

Let's close in prayer. No I said. I said. How else would you define rational theism. I mean if you just read his definition rational theism the knowledge of one supreme person maker an active ruler of the world.

What does that sound like. Okay. Yes it's doctrine. But specifically what doctrine. Okay. Doctrine of God. Yeah. The knowledge of one supreme person maker and active ruler of the world. How about if I just say this.

What if I just say this one word monotheism. Does that just sound like what I mean. I'm I'm just like I'm going. Well let's see one supreme person maker and active ruler of the world. Okay. I think that's monotheism.

Well I just came up with it. So I don't know I'm just proposing that as an alternative. I mean I wrestled with that man. I was like what is he on about. I mean I understand what he's saying. But why this rational theism as opposed to what irrational theism.

The Real Personal God Revealed in Jesus and Scripture

Number six true or false. The proposed by liberals Steve puts in their relationship between Jesus and the father is preposterous. It's foolishness. Is that true or false. It is absolutely true. Listen what he says and tell me this doesn't sound ridiculous.

The relation of Jesus to his heavenly father was not a relation to a vague and impersonal goodness. That's what he's. What the liberals propose. It was not a relation which merely clothed itself in symbolic personal form.

On the contrary it was a relation to a real person whose existence was just as definite and just as much a subject of theoretic knowledge as the existence of the lilies of the field that God had clothed.

The very basis of the religion of Jesus was a triumphant belief in the real existence of a personal God. Not this kind of ephemeral sort of cotton candy you know relationship the way the liberals propose it.

But an actual relationship. I mean it's hard to even read something like you know I read our our New Testament reading last week from the beginning of John 17 and just on the high priestly prayer just the interaction between or what Jesus is praying about there.

It's hard to read that and to think this is just kind of some show relationship or some faux relationship. And it's not a genuine relationship between God the father and God the son. I mean just listen to this.

When Jesus had spoken these words he lifted his eyes to heaven and said father the hour has come. Glorify your son. That the son may glorify you since you have given him authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

And this is eternal life that they know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now father glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

This this is this is a relationship that is eternal. It's not and and very personal. Not some sort of faux fake plastic relationship. Number seven true or false. And it's certainly not the same relationship that we have with the father.

It's it's true or false. Jesus proved his theism by argumentation and that is false. It may be that the belief in a personal God is the result of a primitive revelation and that the theistic proofs are only a lot the logical confirmation of what was originally at arrived at by a different means.

I mean again I thought some of his his arguments here were a little bit thick. Oh we need somebody older than Brian Kant the yeah philosopher guy Emanuel Emanuel Kant. Yes for those of us who aren't as familiar with who skipped philosophy in college.

I in all in all honesty in all honesty I wish I had skipped philosophy in college. I mean I don't remember anything of it other than I think we spent half the semester trying to prove that we exist. I did not like that.

No because our professor wasn't that bizarre but it was it was pretty bad. Emanuel Kant. I mean obviously I don't remember anything about him except for he's a rationalist and a real you know pain and probably you know somewhat the father of or maybe the grandfather of modern liberalism.

But I other than that I can't really tell you much of anything. If you guys want to do a you know an exposition on Kant we can probably do that at some point. I mean Kierkegaard. I could probably tell you more about but Kant not so much.

Truth in Philosophy and the Universal Fatherhood of God

Number eight true or false. Something. And this is another one. I mean I I again I struggle with uh several things in this in this chapter. But uh true or false. Something false philosophically may be true in the Christian faith.

That was a good that was a that was a good bit of reading on your part. So what's the answer to the question. You do like to do that if you say something true. Okay false. And listen what. What Machen said true religion can make no peace with a false philosophy.

Okay. So something false philosophically may not be true in right any more than with a science that is falsely. So a false science a thing cannot possibly be true in religion and false in philosophy or in science.

All methods of arriving at truth if they be valid methods. And there's the key. You know here's something. And maybe you've heard this phrase before all truth is God's truth. True. Why. Okay. But is there something that true that doesn't proceed from him.

Wait a minute. Let me go back to my question. Is there something true that does not proceed from God. No. Okay. Number nine true or false. One thing Christians and liberals agree upon is the universal fatherhood of God.

I can hardly read that with a straight face. Machen the liberal preacher loves to use one designation of God which is nothing if not theistic. He loves to speak of God as Father. Modern men have been so impressed with this element in Jesus teaching that they have sometimes been inclined to regard it as the very sum and substance of our religion.

We are not interested they say in many things for which men formerly gave their lives. In other words the gospel. We are not interested in the theology of the creeds. I mean this is an interesting little side thing.

I'm part of a group. Not. It's not really a group. I follow this group. I should say it's called exposing Doug Wilson. Okay on Facebook. And what they what they do is they just kind of really go after all of his foibles.

And it's. And it's interesting to read. But yesterday they posted something having nothing to do with Doug Wilson. And what they said was this. And they said uh they were talking about marriage. And they said marriage ought to be completely equal.

Egalitarian. Um no equal. In other words husband and wife completely equal. Nobody having the final say. You know that there is no secret trump card that a husband can pull out and go. Yeah. You know we're doing it my way.

And and we'll circle back to what this is about here in a second. But what. I I normally just read the stuff that they post and don't say anything. But I read that and felt like I had to post something.

Brian. Well how would you prove that. Brian. Where would you prove that. What's your proof text. Okay their proof text was Ephesians 5 21. So let's take a bible. Open it to Ephesians 5. What's Ephesians 5 21.

Say. Okay. Wait a minute though. How do you know that. You know what. Okay. But is it true. I want to. I want to go back. I want to go back and just read a little bit more of Ephesians 5. Let's. Well let's let's back up though a little bit.

Um you know let's go back to let's say verse 11 take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness. But instead of expose them is this in context of marriage. For it is shameful to even speak of the things that they do in secret.

Is this with regard to marriage. But when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible for anything that becomes visible as light. Therefore it says wake o sleeper and arise from the dead and Christ will shine on you.

Okay. Is that about marriage. Okay. Look carefully then how you walk not as unwise but as wise making the best use of the time because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish but understand what the will of the lord is.

And do not get drunk with wine for that is debauchery but be filled with the spirit addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody to the lord with your heart.

Is this about marriage. I think it is because you know that's how you should talk to your wife. Psalms hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody. Steve. Yeah. Okay. And then verse 20 giving thanks always and for everything to god the father in the name of our lord jesus christ.

I mean doesn't this sound like body life. Right. Don't get drunk with wine. This is just like instruction to believers. Don't get drunk with wine for that is debauchery but be filled with the spirit. And then do what.

If you're filled with the spirit then you address one another. What. Within the body of christ. In psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody to the lord with your heart. Why. Because that encourages.

Right. Giving thanks always and for everything. Uh and for everything to god the father in the name of our lord jesus christ. And then verse 21 marriage. Obviously submitting to one another out of reverence for christ that.

Yes wes. No. I have a question. Yeah. If the next verse. Yeah. Okay. Well they they read they read the next verse. But here's what they they said they went to. I mean it was very interesting. I can probably pull it up.

They went to. They went to places like colossians where it says let no one judge you with regard to moons festivals. Then they went to romans. You know talking about binding consciences. And they go listen.

If a husband makes a decision that goes against with it. And here's the heart of it. This is my summary. If a husband makes a wife a decision that goes against what his wife wants he is in essence binding the conscience of his wife and thus sinning against her.

That's what they said. Yeah. So so first of all what's your response to that. That's wrong. Okay. Well i mean what's a biblical response to that. Besides that's wrong. What. Okay. The point of being a leader is to serve others with the authority not yourself.

Let's just read verse 22. Go back to you know the the verses that they want to dodge here somehow wives submit to your own husbands. What do we say about the word submit. But yeah. But i mean what does it mean.

What's okay. Well let's get this right though. In his humanity is jesus subordinate to the father. Yeah. Okay. What does it mean to submit. It means wives submit to your husbands. Does that mean agree.

It means i don't agree. But i'm going to do it anyway. I'm not going to complain. I'm not going to shake my fist. I'm not going to look at you and say how could you. I'm going to go. Okay loser. You know without saying loser.

Okay loser. Okay. Yeah we see a proper wife would do this. Okay loser. Okay loser. You know. No. And that's you know when we talk about you know people people think we hear this all the time. I don't like what the elders said about this.

I don't like that. Okay. That's not what submit means. Not. You know wives like what your husbands do. No submit to your own husbands. Now let's go to verse 23. Wives submit to your own husbands as to the lord.

Right. In other words as a wife is submitted to the lord so she should submit to her husband. For the husband is the head of the wife even as christ is the head of the church. Now let's take this mutual submission idea and apply it to that.

It is the the husband wife relationship is supposed to reflect the christ church relationship. So is that one of mutual submission. Christ submits to the church as the church submits to christ. I'm just like i go.

So i said that i go. I'm confused. Help me out here. You know does christ have a mutual submission relationship. And they. So what do they do. They went back to colossians 3 romans 14. Never dealt with the text here.

And i said well okay could you tell me who the earliest theologian who agrees with. Because this is a confessional group. Meaning they subscribe you know to westminster confession of faith. So so who was the earliest you know person who agrees with you.

Silencio. You know. And i'm just like augustine silencio sergio silencio the silent assassin. I mean it's just awful. Well and and it's where i realized you know maybe maybe this group is just a lot more liberal than i've been.

You know thinking it was. I mean they want to expose doug wilson. Because doug wilson does a lot of dumb things. Um but you know just because you're exposing somebody doesn't mean you can't do. I mean how many how many.

Uh what's the word uh of these ministries that expose other ministries you know are actually good. I mean who was the guy. Uh i mean there was a guy up in montana who used to run this thing. And he he turned out to have all sorts of problems including you know financial malfeasance and all kinds of other things.

What. Uh i'll probably think of his name on the drive home. It doesn't really matter. But i mean all the all those kind of uh uh sort of ministries usually have a weakness. Okay. Um so where was i going with that.

Well this idea you know liberalism. Liberalism can wear its head in a lot of interesting ways. The liberal preacher loves to use designation of god as father. Modern men have been so much impressed with this element in jesus's teaching that they have sometimes been inclined to regard it as the very substance of our religion.

Uh oh we are not interested in the theology of the creeds. They say we are not interested in the doctrines of sin and salvation. I mean and and that was my point with the wilson group. It just struck me that you know they say they're creedal.

They say they're confessional. And then you say okay well show me that you actually hold to the creeds and confessions. And they're like yeah no we don't. Uh we're yeah. Well i you know i go by my gizzard.

My i mean because if you think about that what they said about confession or about conscience. Right. Not binding somebody's conscience. Help me out here. But doesn't that sound like a complete get out of jail free card.

Can't you just say almost anything. Well that binds my conscience that goes against my convictions. Yes so i don't have to explain ephesians 5 because my conscience says men and women are totally equal.