Machen - Christianity And Liberalism [Chapter 3]

Is as we consider these things this morning and I pray that you'd bless each one here And cause us to reflect on your kindness your loving kindness your patience toward us

Father we pray for these things in jesus name. Amen So Do you guys get a copy of the quiz some of you did some of you yes

We need one Build us, okay number one in order to understand the gospel

One must know something about god and man That's profound

I don't know who wrote that question, but he's fired Well, I think the first couple you know, that's usually how you you draw people in on these quizzes you start super easy

You lure them in and then you whack them on the head, so Uh One must know something.

I mean, what do you do if you if you start preaching the gospel to somebody How how can you give them the gospel without talking about the nature of god the nature of man?

Would try You think why do you what do you think somebody would say false?

Those people who would technically be reading it making it false would be something about god based on Man it's like my view of god

Okay You know what in a sense you could make this False right because you could say one must know something

Well, i'm going to falsify it by saying, you know one must know something Biblical about god a lot of people think they know about god, right, but it's just their own opinion.

So, you know I I guess you know if dave were here he could argue for the false side

And he wouldn't be crazy Uh majus says this he says certain presuppositions

Presupposition is something what and don't use the word to define it. What's a presupposition? Okay, something you know beforehand,

I mean a lot of people say something like a presupposition is something you Yeah, and I hate that.

Um It's not something you presuppose. It's something you know beforehand. Yeah Certain presuppositions must be accepted the christian gospel consists in an account

I don't know about that i'd say of an account of how god saved man And before that gospel can be understood something must be known

Number one about god number two about man. I mean if we just get back to the uh, what were they called the four?

Oh, yeah four w's and the first two were Who is god? And who is man?

Right. Unless you understand those things. I mean, how do you get the good news if you don't get the bad news? And the bad news is god is holy man is sinful no

No, the good news is really bad news for unsaved people right

I mean when they hear it and it bounces off their forehead The gospel is everything the unbeliever doesn't want right

That's i'm gonna i'm gonna write that down. That's good. Wes That could be a book good book

Good bug title a good book title everything you don't want the gospel of jesus

I like that morning, dan Grab a donut and a quiz or or a quiz donut number two true or false

The conclusions of christianity and liberalism about god and man are opposite Or we could say opposed

True And isn't it interesting? I mean,

I like all these memes I see these days, you know that show wolves and sheep's clothing and you know

Literal wolves and sheep's clothing like though. It's just a wolf with a sheep over sheepskin over it or something

And i'm like that's what liberals do they try to pretend like they're christians But in reality, they're very much opposed to the gospel

Machen says the doctrine of god and the doctrine of man are the two great presuppositions of the gospel We already talked about that with regard to these presuppositions

As with regard to the gospel itself Modern liberalism is diametrically opposed to christianity

I mean just imagine saying that to your liberal friends your liberal christian friends.

You are an enemy of the gospel That's that's probably not going to go over well

But that's what he's saying Liberalism We should not

I mean, this is how I just put this here liberalism quote we should

Not seek how to know god or to seek to know god But should merely feel his presence

When I thought about that I could I could hear a very familiar voice in my life talking about a given talk a given song a given movie a given

Place like, you know, you go to the grand canyon and this person would always say that something was inspired

And from that they meant it had something to do with god with the divine

But it wasn't god. It was just something that moved them But I think that's liberalism liberalism is all about feeling

He says with regard to this objection It Ought to be observed that if religion consists merely in Feeling the presence of god in other words the opposite of knowing him

It is devoid of any moral quality, whatever Pure feeling if there be such a thing is non -moral or the correct word would be amoral not immoral but amoral

When something is amoral it has Zero morality not a positive or a negative.

It's just Middling it has no moral sense whatsoever

Um, I mean it's kind of hard to even come up with how many of you have sat in liberal churches a few

I mean, can you think of anything that do you remember anything about it brian?

Okay I mean, it's very emotionally driven. I i've honestly never sat in a liberal church um

I would I don't even know if i'd call that liberal What would you define as liberal? That's a good question

Around the area one was to take a field trip to a liberal, but would that be

I think that would be liberal. Yeah An episcopal church with a lesbian pastor I mean,

I don't know how many how you get much more liberal than that Okay, let's talk about that.

What is a a liberal Church a liberal christian. What is that? What does it mean?

I mean, that's kind of interesting because he doesn't have to do that because liberalism was Hot and heavy, you know, nobody nobody says well, you know what?

I can't say nobody says that I remember being on a cruise In fact, my friend eddie was on this cruise because we were we were playing diplomacy on that cruise and I remember us sitting at a table one night and they'd arranged it so that There was a mormon couple

Uh, I think an episcopalian couple a charismatic couple and janet and I were at this one table together

And so eddie comes over and he says, uh How do you all all you christians get along?

He goes, you know explain it to me the pagan dog is that's what eddie calls himself

And so this one couple says well, we're lds and i'm thinking to myself, okay, so non -christians, right

I already know that um and then the pentecostal couple,

I mean they were they spent the whole week, we were out there gambling and uh drinking

What's that Well, yeah, but the pentecostal co I mean they were just like They were both by the spirits.

Yeah And it comes around to this other couple the I think they were episcopalian

And she just goes the the wife said of course not the husband She goes we're liberal

And I just remember the way she just kind of lilted when she said that I was just like We're liberal.

We we have no problem with anybody What does liberalism mean? It means you want

Go ahead west were you gonna say something? Well, I and i'll get back to that in a minute we'll talk about saddleback in a minute um

Let me just throw out the initial thing and and you guys can maybe add to it a liberal church is one that Has all the trappings of church, right?

But no gospel No, you know no law uh a low view of god

A high view of man Well, yeah, no discipline because that would be law, you know, you don't want to do that brian

Are you saying that they're deficit Essentials to christianity or do they go to my general understanding of being liberal is if somebody is liberal with their money, they're

They're throwing extra out there, right? So that's why i'm confused well, the word liberal has a lot of connotations, but when it comes to christianity,

I would say you know it that they have the The form but not the substance

So they're deficient. Oh very much. So I mean it's like empty Wes would it be fair to say that your liberalism is is based on how and and kind of put that on us?

Whatever I mean, I think it's a sliding scale. We all know that's not true, but how to be right with god If it's really the easier it is the more liberal it is you need nothing to be right with god yeah, but I but I think liberalism comes from I I mean my take on liberalism would be they're very liberal and how they

Interpret scripture, right which makes it easier to be right. Yes Yeah Simple workspace

Yeah, but but I mean I I think their default position would be people are right with god you know babies are born in I mean they would negate things like Original sin, you know and just yeah,

I I I would agree with that. I i'd say they're less theologically sound than the roman catholic church, which is really saying something

Right One sentence summary you mean as far as what they do like the affirmative case for them

Um liberal church prioritizes love

Unity and the brotherhood of man and Notice notice what's totally missing there yeah,

I mean I mean you you know, but So then, you know love becomes this all -encompassing idea of christ

What he did, you know in god without being You know really explicit about it because there's no need for that But unity and love he encourages too many sure

In other words in other words when we say when we say liberalism opposes christianity, we don't say it opposes everything in scripture

You know and you know, what do false teachers always do? they use the bible and then they

Twist it redefine it, you know um Proof text that kind of thing.

So let me get back and then we can talk more about liberalism Let me get back to saddleback. Why isn't saddleback?

Why don't I call it a liberal? church I think it has liberal elements in it.

Absolutely, you know, I mean they just ordained some female pastors here not too long ago And they didn't just do one they did three.

Yeah Right saddleback good question. What is saddleback saddleback is a mega church

In southern california where we used to take field trips and go down there. Um, what's that?

Is rick warren? Purpose driven live purpose driven church purpose driven family purpose driven television purpose driven

You know, I mean purpose driven trademark, right? I mean it's He made he made uh the purpose driven life

I think at one point was like I I I believe it sold more copies than pilgrims progress

Yeah, I mean it's like massive seller you can google that and see if i'm wrong, but I think that's right because I think

I I seem to remember rick warren doing the humble brag on that, you know It wasn't so humble, but it was a brag

Um and with saddleback Since yeah, these guys are going to be coming in these troublemakers keep them out of our donuts

Yeah the preachers I could talk about what happened last night, but I won't for brian's sake so Brian's like there he is looking like a preacher michael bartlett

So, um saddleback was formed this way, okay rick warren

Uh being a graduate of southwestern

Seminary, I believe in texas Wanted to plant a church in southern california, but he wanted to do things a little bit differently he wanted to do things kind of You know robert schuller is probably not

Bob schuller was somebody who used to have a tv show and it's called the hour of power And what schuller did was he had all the vestiges of like a

Christian, I mean he wore he wore robes like he was a presbyterian, right? And he would always get up and give these any white hair and you know, he looked very profound um, but he was a disciple of norman vincent peale who

You know, basically the power of positive thinking and so what schuller would do is he would go through like hymnals

And change, you know saved a wretch like me You know, and I don't remember what he changed to change it to but it was something like you know

Saved something glorious like me or wouldn't even say saved right? It was like, you know Um, so it it's it was liberalism.

I mean schuller was liberal to the hilt He just talked about how good people were and he was massively popular built something called the crystal cathedral

Which the catholic church now owns? Yeah Yeah um so anyway, uh, but saddleback the way he started that was he did surveys of people down there in orange county because Orange county is a place where there's a lot of money

So it's a nice place to start a church if you can actually get one going, right? Get you know, five ten people in your church that have money and boom you're off to the races

So he was like, what do you want in a church? This is how he started the church so it's the seeker sensitive model on steroids because we're going to run a

Survey to find out what people want and then we're going to like the king said Give the people what they want right

How many people remember that album? All right, so Came out while I was overseas

So that's the idea and so then what saddleback is developed into is this massive campus down there in orange county

Only a couple miles from where one of my sisters lives and it's sprawling and you go there and it's like Everything bethlehem bible church isn't

I mean, it's just this Yeah, I mean they've got a cafe bar In a separate building where you can sit and watch the services and stuff like that They've got people in the parking lot, you know, because if you're parked

In mickey three or daffy two or whatever Yeah, you you need somebody to at least show you, you know, and do you have any kids and I mean, it's deluxe

It's deluxe, right? It's like everything Yeah, it's it's like what you wish a shopping mall would be but you know um, and then you go in and the music is

Pro deluxe. I remember one time. Uh, uh when we were there the the Speaker was steve arterburn.

Anybody know who he is? He's a christian psychologist written a lot of books. If you google him, you'll go. Well, that's an impressive list of books

He was the speaker that morning and two things about it. One was his title was the god of second chances

Okay, which when you think about it, that's not a terrible title, right? Because anybody can be redeemed and so we can consider that second chance, right?

Um, but Steve arterburn says hi daniel upstairs steve arterburn says

God is in heaven Wringing his hands hoping that you will make the right decision

It was awful. I'm, keep my eye on because I don't want to steal any doughnuts

Get my eye on you people so then So so right before he gets up though, you know, the band does its thing and I mean they've got trombones they've got, you know

You know everything they've got it going on, right? It's like a 12 15 piece, you know band and and you know all this other stuff and arterburn gets up and he goes

Wow, how about that band? I feel like i'm in las vegas and I said

Like super loud like 10 times louder than that I go. Amen and and everybody just just turns around and looks at me like That is saddleback

And I won't tell you what pastor mike did after that service, but but they so they'll have like five

Five six services a weekend right a couple on saturday night And then, you know all day sunday and just and the basic premise of the place is

We don't give people the gospel on sunday We give them useful information

You know things that will make their lives better and then During the week they offer classes where you know, if you go frequently enough, you can probably piece the gospel together so is it a liberal place

It has a lot of liberal tendencies, is it possible to get the gospel there if you work hard enough at it

Yeah, you know you can you can But it's awful teaching. I mean just Like he he did the parable of the soils.

We were there one time and he just had back surgery or something like that So he gets up And he does 10 minutes

And then the band gets up and does a number And then he gets up and he does another 10 minutes and then the band does the number

You know and then he does another because he couldn't stand up that long So instead of having somebody actually preach it was like that And I thought this might be the future of You know church

Yeah, that's fine Uh, it's just it's just awful.

I mean, it's it's really awful it's pretty much the uh Yeah, they even they even they haven't even they they they got something for the youtube.

Yeah. Yeah But it's but it really does sound it really does sound like whoever the demographics are we're going to make sure we we have something for all the various demographics and the and the yes and the um the music, you know, it they could listen to anything, you know,

I mean sing the band could sing anything it could be Climb every mountain or you know, whatever, you know

Appeals to the music director. So I mean that's what saddleback is Is it liberalism?

It's pretty close It's pretty close Okay. Um Non -moral liberalism we talked a little bit about that.

Let's just keep going number three true or false The only way to understand god is to read the bible

So you change the word I want to say no to this but yes if you

Change the word. Hmm Okay, well, let's see what machen says you want to say that that's true

The only way to understand god is to read the bible and you also want to change the question to No, god

Okay, but the question is understand god yes You're getting quite liberal in your uh

No, I don't know so you say true how many others say true Okay, well i'm not changing okay, so then what well as it stands then

Let's go to the judges You say true.

How many say true? How many say false?

How many are just You know gonna be cowardly and not raise their hand at all bill For which one?

Answer's false. Okay, so Yeah, it's all right, it's it's good for us

Well, let's see what machen says some liberal preachers would say that we become acquainted with god only through jesus

That assertion has apparent an appearance of loyalty to our lord But in reality is highly derogatory to him for jesus himself plainly recognized the validity of other ways of knowing god

And to reject those other ways is to reject the things that lay at the very center of jesus's life

Okay nature moral law and scriptures that's correct so we can't say scriptures alone, right uh

Machen said jesus plainly found god's hand in nature the lilies of the field revealed to him the weaving of god

He found god also in the moral law the law written in the hearts of men

Because that's god's law which revealed his righteousness And finally jesus plainly found god revealed in the scriptures.

How profound was our lord's use of the words of prophets and psalmists

To say that such a revelation of god was invalid or useless to us today is to do Does And I really didn't like this.

I kept reading it going. This is just wrong is to do despite two things That lay closest to jesus mind and heart

And I thought maybe that was just a miss Interpolation of Words there.

So I actually looked at what's printed there and i'm like, I don't know Maybe despite was used differently than I don't know okay, because The son

Okay, he's made god known right? Wow, look at these guys

Some of them brought their own congregation. They're upstairs one around Okay, number four

True or false the phrase jesus is god can be rendered meaningless I mean,

I I like that just because I thought okay plenty of people will say Well, that's true.

I mean the mormons will say that's true They just have a different definition of what god is god is not eternal god is a promotion

That's so weird to say man, it's just bizarre Uh matron says to say jesus is god is meaningless unless the word god has an antecedent meeting

Which means what? Yeah Yes, we were talking last night about uh the

Anti -nicene church. What does that mean? It means the church before the nicene creed

Okay so Unless it has a meaning beforehand and the attached meaning of the word god is accomplished by the means

Which you have just mentioned. I mean, for example, how would you prove that? God is the god of nature the god of creation

Okay, go to genesis. You can go to Where else can you go? How about psalm 24?

The earth is the lord lords and all it contains, you know that kind of that kind of statement, okay number five

I mean some of this stuff is really really difficult number five true or false Rational theism is at the very heart of christianity true

Mason says rational theism the knowledge of one supreme person Maker an active ruler of the world is at the very root of christianity

How else could you define rational theism? experientially

I don't know.

What was your answer? Let's close in prayer

No, I said I said how else would you define rational theism? I mean if you just read his definition rational theism

The knowledge of one supreme person maker and active ruler of the world

What does that sound like? Okay. Yes, it's doctrine but specifically what doctrine okay doctrine of god

Yeah The knowledge of one supreme person maker and active ruler of the world

How how about if I just say this? What what if I just say this one word Monotheism Does that just sound like what

I mean, i'm i'm just like i'm going well, let's see one Supreme person maker and active ruler of the world

Okay, I think that's Monotheism Well, I just came up with it.

So I don't know I'm Just proposing that as an alternative. I mean I I wrestled with that man.

I was like, what is he? On about I mean, I understand what he's saying. But why this rational theism?

As opposed to what irrational theism number six true or false the proposed by liberals

Steve puts in their relationship between jesus and the father is preposterous

It's foolishness Is that true or false

It is absolutely true Listen what he says and tell me this just doesn't sound ridiculous

The relation of jesus to his heavenly father was not a relation to a vague and impersonal goodness That's what he's what the liberals propose.

It was not a relation which merely clothed itself in symbolic personal form

On the contrary. It was a relation to a real person Whose existence was just as definite and just as much a subject of theoretic knowledge

As the existence of the lilies of the field that god had clothed The very basis of the religion of jesus was a triumphant belief

In the real existence of a personal god not this kind of ephemeral sort of cotton candy

You know relationship the way the liberals propose it but an actual relationship I mean, it's hard to even read something like, uh, you know,

I read our our uh new testament reading last week from the beginning of john 17

And just on the high priestly prayer just the interaction between Uh, or what jesus is praying about there.

It's hard to read that and to think this is just kind of some Some show relationship or some faux relationship and it's not a a genuine relationship between God the father and god the son

I mean just listen to this when jesus had spoken these words. He lifted his eyes to heaven and said

Father the hour has come Glorify your son that the son may glorify you since you have given him authority over all flesh

To give eternal life to all whom you have given him And this is eternal life that they know you the only true god and jesus christ whom you have sent

I glorified you on earth having accomplished the work that you gave me to do And now father glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed

This this is this is A relationship that is eternal. It's not and and very personal not some sort of Faux fake

Plastic relationship Um number seven true or false and it's certainly not the same relationship that we have with the father it's it's

True or false jesus proved his theism by argumentation then that is false Uh, it may be that the belief in a personal god is the result of a primitive revelation

And that the theistic proofs are only a lot the logical confirmation of what was originally at arrived at by a different means

I mean again, I thought some of his His arguments here were a little bit thick Oh Okay, we need somebody older than brian kant the yeah philosopher guy emmanuel emmanuel kant yes

For those of us who aren't as familiar who skipped philosophy in college

I I had an engineering class to take something that's real in all in all honesty

In all honesty, I wish I had skipped philosophy in college I mean,

I don't remember anything of it other than I think we spent half the semester

Trying to prove that we exist I did not like that class

No Because our professor wasn't that bizarre, but it was it was pretty bad emmanuel kant,

I mean Honestly, I don't remember anything about him except for he's a a rationalist and a real, you know pain and probably you know somewhat the father of Or maybe the grandfather of modern liberalism

Um, but I other than that I can't really tell you much of anything if you guys want to do a you know An exposition on kant we can probably do that at some point

I mean kierkegaard I could probably tell you more about but kant not so much number eight

True or false Something and this is another one. I mean I I again I struggle with uh several things in this in this chapter, but Uh true or false something false philosophically may be true in the christian faith

That was a good that was a that was a good bit of reading on your part. So what's the answer to the question? because If you change it

You do like to do that. If you say something true philosophically, maybe true from the christian faith that that would be

Okay False It's false. Yeah, and listen what what mentioned said true religion

Can make no peace with a false philosophy. Okay so something false philosophically may not be true and right any more than With a science that is falsely so a false science

A thing cannot possibly be true in religion and false in philosophy or in science

All methods of arriving at truth if they be valid methods and there's the key You know, here's something

And maybe you've heard this phrase before all truth is god's truth Why Okay But is there something that true that doesn't proceed from him?

Wait a minute. Let me go back to my question. Is there something true that does not proceed from god? No, no, okay

All right number nine True or false one thing christians and liberals agree upon is the universal fatherhood of god

I can hardly read that with a straight face Mentioned the liberal preacher loves to use one designation of god

Which is nothing if not theistic he loves to speak of god as father

Modern men have been so impressed With this element in jesus teaching that they have sometimes been inclined to regard it as the very sum and substance of our religion we are not interested they say in many things for which

Men formerly gave their lives in other words the gospel We are not interested in the theology of the creeds

I mean, this is an interesting little side thing. I'm part of a group Not it's not really a group

I follow this group I should say it's called exposing doug wilson Okay on facebook

And what they what they do is they just kind of really go After all of his foibles and it's and it's interesting to read but yesterday they posted something having nothing to do with doug wilson and what they said was this and They said, uh, they were talking about marriage

And they said marriage ought to be completely equal egalitarian

No equal in other words husband and wife completely equal nobody having the final say You know that there is no secret trump card that a husband can pull out and go

Yeah, you know, we're doing it my way and and we'll circle back to what this is about here in a second, but what

I I normally just read the stuff that they post and don't say anything But I read that and felt like I had to post something

Brian Well, how would you prove that brian?

Where would you prove that what's your proof text? Okay Their proof text was this ephesians 5 21

So let's take a bible open it to ephesians 5 What's ephesians 5 21 say

Okay Wait a minute though.

How do you know that? You know what?

Okay, but is it true

I want to I want to go back I want to go back and just read a little bit more of ephesians 5 let's

Well, let's let's back up though a little bit Um, you know, let's go back to let's say verse 11 take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead of Expose them.

Is this in context of marriage? For it is shameful to even speak of the things that they do in secret.

Is this with regard to marriage? But when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible for anything that becomes visible as light

Therefore it says wake o sleeper and arise from the dead and christ will shine on you Okay, is that about marriage?

Okay, look carefully Then how you walk Not as unwise, but as wise

Making the best use of the time because the days are evil Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the lord is

And do not get drunk with wine for that is debauchery, but be filled with the spirit addressing one another

In psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody to the lord with your heart. Is this about marriage?

I think it is because you know, that's how you should talk to your wife psalms hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody

Yeah Okay, and then verse 20 giving thanks always and for everything to god the father in the name of our lord.

Jesus christ I mean doesn't this sound like? body life

Right don't get drunk with wine. This is just like instruction to believers Don't get drunk with wine for that is debauchery

But be filled with the spirit and then do what if you're filled with the spirit, then you address one another

What within the body of christ? In psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody to the lord with your heart

Why because that encourages right give me thanks always and for everything And for everything to god the father in the name of our lord.

Jesus christ and then verse 21 Marriage obviously submitting to one another out of reverence for christ

That yes Yeah, if the next verse after out of reverence for christ was

Galatians 6 23 peace be to the brothers love and grace to all those, you know, but we're done. Yeah.

Okay Maybe how do they avoid? reading the next verse well

They they read they read the next verse, but here's what they they said they went to I mean it was very interesting

I can probably pull it up They they went to they went to places like colossians where it says let no one judge you with regard to moons festivals

Then they went to romans, you know talking about binding consciences and they go listen if a husband

Makes a decision That goes against with it and here's the heart of it.

This is my summary If a husband makes a wife a decision that goes against what his wife wants

He is in essence Binding the conscience of his wife And thus sinning against her

Yeah, so So first of all, what's your response to that? Uh, that's wrong.

Okay. Well, I mean what's a biblical response to that besides that's wrong Are supposed to be based on the entire section of verses 25 25 to 33

You're you're supposed to be doing this with her best interest. It's supposed to be something that is done In love for for her sanctification and and good

The leader as christ The point of being a leader is to serve others with that with that authority

Okay, the point of being a leader is to serve others with the authority not yourself Let's just read verse 22

Go back to you know, the the verses that they want to dodge here somehow wives

Submit to your own husbands What do we say about the word submit? But yeah, but I mean what does it mean?

What's it? Okay, let's get this right though in his humanity is jesus subordinate to the father.

Yes, okay What does it mean to submit?

it means Wives submit to your husbands.

Does that mean agree? It means

I don't agree But i'm going to do it anyway I'm, not going to complain

I'm, not going to shake my fist I'm, not going to look at you and say how could you i'm going to go?

Okay, loser You know without saying loser It does say wives respect their husbands

Okay loser, okay. Yeah, we see a proper wife would do this.

Okay loser Okay loser, you know No, and that's you know when we talk about you know, people people think we hear this all the time

I don't like what the elders said about this. I don't like that. Okay That's not what submit means not you know wives like what your husbands do no

Submit to your own husbands now Let's go to verse 23

Wives submit to your own husbands as to the lord, right? In other words as a wife is submitted to the lord, so she should submit to her husband

For the husband is the head of the wife Even as christ is the head of the church now

Let's take this mutual submission idea and apply it to that It is the the husband and wife relationship is supposed to reflect the christ church relationship so Is that one of mutual submission?

Christ submits to the church as the church submits to christ I'm just like I go so I said that I go i'm confused.

Help me out here You know, does christ have a mutual submission relationship and they so what do they do?

They went back to colossians 3 romans 14 never dealt with the text here and I said well, okay

Could you tell me who the earliest theologian? Who agrees with because this is a confessional group meaning they subscribe?

you know to westminster confession of faith, so So who was the earliest, you know person who agrees with you

Silencio, you know, and i'm just like Augustine silencio

Sergio silencio The silent assassin, I mean it's just awful well in And and it's what

I realized, you know, maybe maybe this group is just a lot more liberal than i've been You know thinking it was

I mean they want to expose doug wilson because doug wilson does a lot of dumb things um but you know

Just because you're exposing somebody doesn't mean you can't do I mean how many how many uh, What what's the word uh

Of these ministries that expose other ministries You know are actually good. I mean who was the guy?

Uh, I mean there was a guy up in montana who used to run this

Thing and he he turned out to have all sorts of problems including You know financial malfeasance and all kinds of other things.

What what? I'll i'll probably think of his name on the drive home

It doesn't really matter but I mean all the all those kind of uh um Sort of ministries

Usually have a weakness Okay Um, so where was

I going with that? Well this idea, you know liberalism

Liberalism can wear its head in a lot of interesting ways The liberal preacher loves to use the designation of god as father

Modern men have been so much impressed with this element in jesus's teaching That they have sometimes been inclined to regard it as the very substance of our religion

Uh, oh we are not interested in the theology of the creeds they say we are not interested in the doctrines of sin and salvation

I mean and and that was my point with the wilson group It just struck me that you know, they say they're creedal.

They say they're confessional And then you say okay, well show me that you actually hold to the creeds and the confessions and they're like, yeah

No, we don't uh, we're Yeah Well, I you know,

I go by my gizzard my I mean because if you think about that what they said about Confession or about conscience, right not binding somebody's conscience

Help me out here, but doesn't that sound like a complete get out of jail free card? Can't you just say almost anything well that binds my conscience that goes against my convictions

Yes, so I don't have to explain ephesians 5 because my conscience says men and women are totally equal

Look galatians 328 is not a joke Right. So it that is my trump card.

You can say submission is a trump card. I say You know galatians 328 and colossians 2 and romans 14, those are my trump cards

And to which I say well if you say you're confessional I mean, I mean there's my you know, the one thing i'm liking more and more about church history and about all these kind of things is

Like I said last week and I will continue to say It's comforting to me to think

We're taking the once for all delivered faith And we're passing it on we're not innovators we're

I I guess you could say we're Flame keepers where you know, we're protectors of the truth.

That's what we do We don't want to come up with novel things And when people do it should it should be like, you know

You're listening to somebody play the piano and then all of a sudden they do a clunk And you go, you know, it was a bad note

And when we when we're discussing theological things and somebody does something like well that binds my conscience and you just go

That's a really bad note You know, you want to tell me you believe the bible and everything else But when

I come to you and I say well, what does this mean and you go? I mean it I think the thing

I most often hear that about is election Or you know, I don't believe in election.

Okay. Well, what does this mean then? Well, I don't know but I you know the way you explain it I don't like it

Okay, number 10 true or false the parable of the prodigal Is a demonstration of god's unconditional love

Okay, how many people say false? How many people say true?

How many people? dan

What what you vote present that's what I thought Tf So he voted barack obama president um

It's false But I wanted dave smith to be here because he could argue true because it really kind of is but it really sort of isn't

I mean, how can you argue true for this question? Because the father when he sees the prodigal son approaching does what?

He runs to him for no other reason than He loves him Okay, so you could you could make that argument

Would look like shipping the kid more money

Yeah, well it would be like giving Giving him more drugs because that's what he really needs

Did he wait for repentance though? Well, the kid came back. Yeah, but he didn't go up. He never went out and hunted him down To make sure he was okay man

Man wes has a cold cold father man. He's like I think wes just did

H and actually does say yeah that was um It's right here in second place in the second place a parable is certainly not to be pressed in its details.

Let's just What you know what I I have that down here and why do

I have that down here It could get into the weeds, right?

But I I think you know, the biggest problem is with parables is when people try to extract

More truth than is intended there. I mean the worst example probably is the uh, the good samaritan because people just like They they take it instead of being a pair a parable.

They turn it into a Uh, what's so I almost had the word What's that No, no, no, but there's a uh, uh

A literal uh literature term of literature where you know There's more of a one -for -one correspondence and that's what they they try to do with that one yeah, but I mean

I mean there are uh, there's parables there are

More veiled references where there's a one -for -one correspondence and i'm forgetting what the name of that is.

But anyway Uh, let's read what mason says the plain fact is that this modern doctrine of the universal fatherhood of god formed

No part whatever of jesus teaching Where is it that jesus may be

Supposed to have taught the universal father of god. Certainly. It's not in the parable of the prodigal son, and that's why it's false because mason says false

For in the first place the publicans and sinners whose acceptance by jesus formed the occasion Both of the pharisees objection and of jesus answer to them by means of the parable were not

Any men anywhere but were members of the chosen people and as such might be designated as sons of god

And here's the point in luke 15 How does jesus introduce those three parables?

Anybody remember that? because we have the lost coin lost sheep yes, but he

But this is the setting here now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to him

And the pharisees and the scribes grumbled saying the man received sinners and eats with them so He told them this parable

Well, I mean they you know, he he was refuting their their complaint that this man received sinners and eats with them

This idea that you know somehow interacting with sinners Is bad

Sin Right. He doesn't look at sin. Okay, so dealing with the person in sin.

Yeah, I like that um Okay So here because the joy of the father in the parable is like the joy of god when a sinner receives salvation in jesus hand

It does not follow the relation which god sustains to unrepentant sinners is that of a father to his children, right the the

Prodigal son is repentant Although I think it'd be stretching things a little bit west to say that the father knew that Okay one one of the clearest uh instances of the broader use of the father of the figurehead or figure of the fatherhood

Of god is found in the speech of paul at athens And by the way, if I ever rewrote this book,

I would change I would get rid of the roman numerals Oh, yeah X x 17 because it takes me a second to kind of go.

Yeah. Okay. All right I'm, like what's x x vii? Oh roman numerals x 17

X 17 28 For we are also his offspring

So there people could say well paul's appealing to the universal brotherhood of man and the fatherhood of god

Machen says here it is plainly the relation in which god stands to all men whether christians or not which is in his mind but the words form part of a

Yeah hex hexameter, however, you say that line Yeah Like hexagon would be six

And I only know that because i've played war games since I was 12. So which have hexagons is their main feature usually uh, but the words form part of a

Uh six figure line And are taken from a pagan poet

They are not represented as part of the gospel, but merely as belonging to the common meeting ground

Which paul discovered in speaking to his pagan hearers. In other words, he's establishing common ground

In him in god, we all live and move and have our being right? He's the sustainer of life

So he's like I I want you guys to understand that we do have something in common We are all creatures is what he could say.

But instead he quotes this poet Um, the passage is only typical of what appears with respect to a universal fatherhood of god in the new testament as a whole

Something analogous to a universal of fatherhood Fatherhood of god is taught in the new testament so something analogous

Here and there the terminology of fatherhood and sonship is even used to describe this general relationship

But such instances are extremely rare ordinarily, the lofty term father is used in Or used to describe a relationship of a far more intimate kind the relationship in which god stands to the company of the redeemed

So, you know, are we all children of god I guess there's the question

I could have asked it like more broadly than that and then we could have argued about it So i'll ask it now

Are we all children of god? But see if you say that then what?

Yeah, I mean and you know, it's also one of those place and time things I mean imagine Because what the guys are doing this morning is giving a funeral message

So here let me open up my funeral You know, typically you might go to a funeral

And here's something like this Brothers and sisters were gathered here today to remember our dear brother so and so but first of all our brother so -and -so

Wasn't a believer so he's no brother of mine And secondly, if you don't love the lord jesus christ, you're no brother or sister of mine either

So repent and believe on the lord. Jesus christ Let's pray What do you think good message

I don't care Yeah Yeah time and place so 11

Did we? Yeah, true or false the new testament totally refused the idea that we're all god's children

Yeah, but I want to talk about anyway because I bring some bible into it The modern doctrine of the universal fatherhood of god then is which is being celebrated as the essence of christianity

Really belongs at best only to that vague natural religion which forms the presupposition which in other words this kind of act 17 idea

We're all brothers and sisters In the sense that we're all image bearers we're all created beings

But then he says the gospel itself refers to something entirely different They're really distinctive new testament teaching about the fatherhood of god concerns

Only those who have been brought into the household of faith. So What's that? Yes So can you think of some passages that might because I have a couple in mind and you guys might have some others that indicate that Talk about adoption or talk about The special relationship that believers have with Okay I have here ephesians 1 5

He predestined us for adoption as sons through jesus christ

According to the purpose of his will Now, how can I prove to an unbeliever that says?

Well that just says that we are All adopted as sons and daughters through jesus christ

How could I? Say, well that's exclusive only for believers Okay, I mean if we read before and after that we would see very clearly it only has to do with believers romans 8 23

And not only the creation but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the spirit

Grown inwardly as we wait eagerly for what? Adoption as sons the redemption of our bodies

I mean we could also I mean they're when there aren't There are a few other places where it just talks about adoption

But I mean even if we look at colossian, you know being transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Light the kingdom of his dear son

Okay, true or false number 12 Liberalism is far more compassionate than christianity

Bill says true Right, right up until death that's a But I mean this is this is you you know, what's what's the current word buzzword for compassionate though tolerant right

I mean christianity is intolerant It's even it's even more it's even less but even before It tells you things that there's so many people who follow these how to do this and I can be that And then they get to you know in their lives here is something that yes here is something that Exactly what wes is saying that a liberal?

Christian could say to somebody And tell me what you think about it You Can't make somebody else happy unless you're happy yourself

And when do they say that? It's usually when they want to justify that something though What do they want to justify?

Okay. So for example, they want to they want to justify declaring their

Homosexuality they want to justify getting a divorce. They want to justify, you know You can't be happy or you can't make somebody else happy unless you're happy The whole world's miserable unless you're happy All right

You you are the center of the universe. You are the the the reason the universe exists is your happiness

That's liberalism. God cares more about our holiness than our happiness yeah,

I I mean, I think the only problem I have with the You know, God cares more about our holiness than our happiness

Well, and and I think too then what what is that really if I if I take that as the mantra of my life

God cares more about my holiness than my happiness. Then. What do I do? I I think it could it could be it could be very legalistic because now all of a sudden i'm like My if god is concerned with my holiness in the sense that uh of self -improvement of me doing better Then i'm on the treadmill of works, right?

And he does care about my holiness, but he cares so much about my holiness that To be my holiness right to be my righteousness

Yes Yeah, the will of god your sanctification So then the question comes about how am

I made more In the image of christ Well, or is it solo bootstraps, uh, you know saved saved by grace

Sanctified by my works I mean it is god's will and god wills and works in me so Um Okay, I I like what he says here in uh concerning number 12, but by the preacher, uh, if we really love our fellow men

We shall not go about the world with the liberal preacher trying to make men satisfied with the coldness of a vague natural religion

And quite honestly, you know the the picture and I mean it's almost I want to Embarrass liberals more than I want to embarrass cultists

And you know, I really the one thing I i'm getting out of this book so far is just like the conviction because I just tend to think of liberals as Unbelievers, right?

But not as what they are which is basically this These are the people who would

Hold people's hands and hug them and take them straight to the gate of hell

Right, that's what they do All the while telling them, you know how much they love them and care about them and everything else

But the truth is they hate those that they minister to Um The coldness of a vague natural religion

He says but by the preaching of the gospel, we shall invite them into the warmth and joy of the house of god

Christianity offers men all that is offered by the modern Liberal teaching which is what fellowship

Love of god acceptance by god About the universal fatherhood of god, but it is

Christianity only because it offers also infinitely more And we're going to get

To that but you know spoiler alert What does christianity offer that? liberal liberalism doesn't besides the truth

What's the one thing that it offers Forgiveness of sins, right?

I mean you you can't get because You know, the essence of liberalism is to minimize sin and or ignore it sweep it under the rug or even

Today, I mean mace mace would be Nodding his head and going You know, the the seed has come to full fruit

Because now it's not just enough to sweep sin under the rug it must be Celebrated I mean these churches that have you know, rainbow flags and we accept everybody and Are they?

But see it it doesn't I mean that doesn't surprise me But you know the roman catholic church really shouldn't surprise us either

I mean one of the reasons, you know, I this kind of sounds conspiratorial, but I think one of the reasons why

Pope benedict Who I really liked most of all for well for two reasons one is because I used to think benedict, you know eggs benedict

But also because what I what I say about Pope benedict was He was a great pope

In the sense that he had the courtesy to be Catholic most popes, you know, you know, you hear the old joke is the pope catholic

No, he's not He's really not he doesn't uphold all the uh If he if he believed in trent i'd go that guy's catholic, but they don't

You know their unit that today's pope. What's the guy's name now? Yeah, he's a universalist

And you know, I would I would say You know if if he lives long enough and if he doesn't the next guy probably will they'll start openly affirming homosexuality because there's a large what people don't know is

There's a in the seminaries of the roman catholic church a lot of homosexuals.

I mean, we know that because of the molestation scandals, but it's Yeah, if they were just open and affirming um

True or false Machen says if we understand the love of god The rest of his attributes will will be clearer

If we understand the love of god, the rest of his attributes will be clearer It's false

I mean, that's come on. That's kind of that's like a liberal hermeneutic there. I just wrote a liberal textbook

He says but one attribute of god is absolutely fundamental in the bible one attribute is absolutely necessary in order to Render intelligible all the rest that attribute is the awful transcendence of god

And you know, it's interesting because I I think abner child's written a paper on this and it's basically his his thesis is

The transcendence of god is seen most plainly in what His otherliness his uniqueness, but where would we see it in scripture?

There's a series of events and we just go. Yep. Those pretty much explain the transcendence of god it's these

I'll call them theophanies, but but everything from like isaiah 6 to ezekiel's vision to John and revelation, right?

These just when we When a human being has this experience of the divine it's like It's not like Jack hayford and you probably don't know who jack hayford is either jack hayford a charismatic pastor still alive runs a four square church in in los angeles

And was at one point friends with john macarthur and they used to go golfing and stuff like that till macarthur started

Calling him out on his false teaching but uh, he said once That jesus appeared to him as he was shaving

And put his arm around him and macarthur's response to that was You know if the resurrected christ shows up While you're shaving

You don't just keep shaving You know, you're you're just like You know you're down and out and that's kind of what we see over and over again when people meet the divine

They don't just you know, it's not just another day In in paradise, they they stumble they fumble they mobile they have difficulty um, he says

From beginning to end the bible is concerned to set forth the awful gulf the gap that separates the creature from the creator

It is true. Indeed that according to the bible god is Imminent what does imminent mean?

I m m a n e n t we Okay Okay near Yeah Okay getting close to pantheism

Getting close but he's everywhere. Okay, and he's near Um, and it says

He says not a sparrow Falls to the ground. So here let's try this for imminent

He's intimately involved in the details of creation, right? He knows the hairs on your head.

He knows everything right? He's involved in it Then he says but he is imminent in the world not because he is identified with the world

But because he is the free creator and upholder of it Yes Yes, and he says that he says between the creature and the creator a great gulf is fixed

And well, and this is the the antithesis of liberalism And the antithesis of most cults, right?

What does liberalism say? God is your father. Jesus is your brother

Which is another reason why mike doesn't like that one hymn that we sing. We've changed the Yeah, it has wonderful music though written by beethoven um

But but it's this whole universal God our father jesus our brother, you know, we're all brothers marching together and and There's something wrong with that.

Anyway, I I mean it just doesn't have enough doctrine in it, you know, honestly Okay number 14 at his best

God is one or man is one with god That's awful, isn't it in modern liberalism on the other hand this sharp distinction between god and the world is broken down And the name god is a applied to the mighty world process itself

What does he mean? He's talking about? Basically god being in everything and we'll talk more about that but Uh, let me let me just kind of To this world process of which we ourselves form a part we apply the dread name of god

God therefore it is said in effect is not personal Is not a person distinct from ourselves on the contrary our life is a part of his thus the gospel story of the incarnation according to modern liberalism is sometimes thought of As a symbol of the general truth that man at his best

Is one with god I I mean there's so there's so much.

I mean i'm actually Looking forward to when uh, pradeep does his

Hinduism not buddhism, but I mean so much So many similarities in some ways because all this new age stuff is all around us

I mean, how many times have you seen somebody say and in cop circles? I see this all the time, you know, well, that's karma

What you know what in the world is karma? It's nothing Or you know

Um, what's something else that you know, it's like this this sense of cosmic justice

You know apart from a holy person who? Will see that justice is done ultimately, you know, there's a sense that they well people say this

Well the universe Is doing blah blah blah blah or mother nature or you know,

I mean And and whenever you hear that,

I mean, it's it's interesting because people are so Opposed to god and yet they want to use some god -like stuff, right?

Thus we see You know magic in movies or the force or whatever, you know, we want to believe that there's something

Supernatural, but the last thing we want is a holy and personal god who sets standards and one day we're going to be judged by They could be real

I think you can buy them by the pound Yeah Okay Number 15, this will be our last one

True or false about the only thing liberalism gets right is the transcendence of god thousand times false

Modern liberalism, even when it is not consistently pantheistic Meaning what pantheistic?

God is everything right? Is at any rate pantheizing it tends to everywhere to break down the separateness between god and the world

And the sharp personal distinction between god and man Modern liberalism has lost all sense of the gulf that separates the creature from the creator

Its doctrine of man follows naturally from its doctrine of god. If you have a little god You have a big man

The consciousness of sin was formerly the starting point Of all preaching but today it is gone

Characteristic of the modern age above all else is a supreme confidence In human goodness filled with Yes the world's

The world's evil it is said can be overcome with the world's good And this is the part that is killer

And this is the part So many people who would consider themselves moral would agree with this

The world's evil it is said can overcome the world's The With the world's good no help is needed from the outside from outside the world

That's what I mentioned said that he's talking about Liberalism the world's evil it is said

Can be overcome with the world's good In other words the forces of good Will overcome the forces of evil

And no outside help is needed right Right Yeah, well there's gonna bring balance to the force.

I mean it is a marvel, isn't it? When you think about world history, why is it that evil never ultimately wins?

even though You know, it seems to I mean like the roman empire, you know

You could go throughout history where it seems like evil is on the verge of winning How would you but it gets overthrown

Well, like some sort of uh, let's let's just say, you know in the modern world,

I don't know maybe the Is this still on uh the modern? That the communist chinese party taking over the world right and in perpetuity, which is what they would like to do

Yeah Maintain it. Yes Yeah, but the more you know, the more technology we get the more

I wonder man, you know, I mean it's going to get harder one day to rebel against Against the power

No, but we have to close No, i've not read that And i'll not comment about it.

Okay. All right. Let's pray father We thank you for your word.

We thank you that we have a sure hope in it not a hope that Is temporary and for this life only not a hope that just says

We're good enough That we can Overcome evil by our own might without your help father.

We are helpless We're dead in our sins and trespasses. There's nothing good in us it is only

You when you cause us to be born again When you grant us your spirit when you take up residence in us and begin working in us and sanctifying us

And father even then we still struggle with sin Father we thank you

For giving us your word both living and written We thank you that you've granted us

A knowledge of truth adoption as your sons Lord grant us the grace the energy the vitality and the spiritual knowledge

To represent you well and to preach christ to unsaved

Sinners including liberals heretics and cultists in jesus name.