Machen - Christianity And Liberalism [Chapter 4]

Opening Prayer and the Contrast Between Christ's Righteousness and Liberal Christianity

Our Father in Heaven, Father, we are men who are just delighted to be wrapped in the robes of Christ's righteousness and gathered here this morning to speak about Him, to speak about what He's done, Father, to even compare it with what so-called liberal Christians have done to the gospel over the last few centuries.

And, Lord, I pray that as we talk about these things, as we look at Your Scripture, and as we discuss the current state of the Church, I pray that You would strengthen us, that You would sharpen us, that You would cause us to reflect again and again on how good and kind You have been to us.

Father, bless and strengthen each one here. We pray in Jesus' name, amen. Well, so last week we began, or we really got heavily into Chapter 3, and we may, I'm certain, finish Chapter 3 today, so we'll see how that goes.

I think we ended... Do you have Chapter 3 with you? Yes, I do. Okay, good point. Valid, valid. I even have some... Chapter 3, they're back by the doughnuts. Chapter 3, Chapter 3, Chapter 3, Number 9, Number 9, Number 9.

Okay, so we left off at Number 16, but I'll just do 15 to just get us back into the flow. Number 15, true or false? About the only thing liberalism gets right is the transcendence of God. Sadly, that's false.

They don't get that right, which just makes me think about cults. What do they do? I say this fairly frequently. They lower God and elevate man, and that's what modern liberals do, too. Does that make them a cult?

I don't know. Let the reader decide. By the way, speaking of cults, I did have a call from a cult yesterday at my house, and it took me about five seconds after I realized it wasn't spam and it was a real person.

It took me about, you know, five seconds to realize that it was a Jehovah Witness. Yeah, yeah, because they're still kind of a little skittish about going door to door. I don't know why, but so eventually he said, now think about this.

If you're talking to a Jehovah Witness, what do you need to establish? Okay, but I mean, they'll grant you that. They'll just... The divinity of Jesus. The divinity of Jesus. Thank you very much, Keith.

And so what scripture would you like to go to? John 1. Okay. Yes, they've already reworded that. So if you're looking for a really clear one, what might... That's good. I didn't think of that. Okay. I didn't even suggest this one.

As soon as the Jehovah Witness said this verse, I thought, oh, that's good. Colossians 1 .15. Right? And he goes, he says to me, he says, well, you know, what does your Bible say? I think he said something like that.

And so I said, I just read it, you know, because I always have my Bible in my... No, I'm not... No. I just pulled up the e-Bible, Colossians 1 .15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

And he goes, see that? Firstborn. And I go, yeah. See that? And I said, the Greek word is prototokos, which means, you know, preeminent. And he goes, well, you know, firstborn means that he's the firstborn of all creation.

And I'm just like, you know, just trying to talk to him. And it was impossible. And eventually you realize you're just wasting your time with a cultist. So I just give him all the gospel and then he goes, are you some kind of Mormon or something?

I started laughing, right? And I go, yeah. And I said, I said, no. I thought, I'm not even going to say I used to be, you know, and he goes, Catholic. And I go, I, you know, at that point I wanted to just go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I said, no, you know, next guest. And you know, so eventually I just said, I, you know, I'm Protestant. It didn't matter. I mean, I'm just going through the Bible with him and he's, I said, let me ask you this.

How do I get to heaven? No. He said, sorry, pal. All the seats are full. I mean, he did. He close. Well, because, you know, the 144 ,000, he said something like, well, you know, you can live on earth.

And I go, yeah, yeah. Your reservation for heaven has been rejected. So I, you know, I just talked about what Christ actually did and he didn't want to hear it. So, you know, I just said, okay, well, thank you.

Have a nice day. Repent, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and stop calling people. I don't know. I just, I just, you know, after a while I'm just like, because, you know, he was obviously with no offense to those who are older than me, older than me.

And I'm like, okay, well, Lord's going to have to use what I say. So I'm just going to give him the truth and then peace out. Okay. So number 16, why would war skew our view of sin? And I think, did we talk about this?

Okay. But why do you suppose it would skew, change, alter, warp our view of sin? Dave? Yeah. And have you ever seen any of the, you know, I'm sure some of you guys have seen the propaganda for World War II and, you know, it got obviously pretty ugly and sometimes what might be considered today racist.

But I mean, it wasn't any better in the, in World War I, you know, it was the nasty Huns who were sinking ships and, you know, and they were evil. They were skewering babies with the bayonets. And the reality is everybody was just looking at each other across, you know, their, their various trenches and shooting each other.

But Machen says this, he says, in time of war, our attention is called so exclusively to the sins of other people that we are sometimes inclined to forget our own sins. I mean, it's interesting because one of the, one of the positives I would say of social media is it's allowed me to connect to a bunch of guys I was in the army with.

And you know, we all served during the Cold War. And I think the last thing you would want to do in those days was be, you know, associated with the Soviet Union, the communists. And today they're taking over the United States, but I, I, I, I digress.

He says it's quite right to be indignant against any oppression of the weak, which is being carried on by the strong. True, right? Attention to the sins of other people is indeed sometimes necessary, right?

But such a habit of mind, if made permanent, if carried over to the days of peace, has its dangers. It joins forces with the collectivism of the modern state to obscure the individual personal character of guilt, which is all just a big way of saying we forget that we are sinners or that our sins are just as bad as everybody else or, or worse.

So war, propaganda, all that stuff, I mean, it skews our view of sin. Number 17, true or false? Even 100 years ago, men were finding novel ways to excuse sin. It's got to be true. Yeah. And am I my brother's keeper?

You know, I mean, how far back does it go? Pretty far. Adam, it's the woman you gave me. Morning, Ben. He says, he says, if John Smith beats his wife nowadays, no one is so old-fashioned as to blame John Smith for it.

I mean, hey, it's not his fault. On the contrary, I mean, man, he can get blackballed for that these days, right? Look what he said. He excused wife beating. On the contrary, it is said, John Smith is evidently the victim of some more of that Bolshevistic propaganda.

Are you wondering what that is? Yeah, I'm just looking at Brian, I'm going, you ever heard that word before? Probably in a sermon, right? Beware of the Bolshevist. The Bolshevists were the communists in Russia at the end of World War One.

So that was the name of their party. Yeah. You Bolshevik. Oh, all the time. Well, I mean, this this week, you know, the the both the assault and the excuses for Kanye West were pretty, pretty intense.

And I'm like, I mean, I don't know how anybody watched the video. I mean, he says he he said basically, you know, are there good things about Hitler? Oh, yeah, there's a lot of good things about Hitler.

And I'm like, well, there's no there's no place to go, right? He didn't have any kids, I don't think. No, I mean, there's I mean, there's a what was the show that he was on, Adam? Or what's that, guys?

No, no, no. But this week he was on with some guy who just lost a billion dollars in lawsuits. No, but no, he was sued. He was sued for the shootings down in Connecticut because he said they were all faked.

Alex Jones. Thank you. Alex. Yeah. He lost a billion dollars. I mean, I'm sure that that'll stand up, you know, on appeal and everything. A billion dollars in emotional damages. OK. I mean, I think what he did was reprehensible, but a billion dollars, Alex Jones, who I've never seen a show.

I don't know anything about him other than he seems like as soon as if somebody sends me a link that says Info Wars or Alex Jones, I automatically go ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, because it's going to be out there.

I mean, I'm out here. I like to tell people I'm more conservative than Genghis Khan. But and it's true because I believe in individual liberty, which makes me more conservative than Genghis Khan. But but Alex Jones is like, you know, further out than I am.

So he's on The Alex Jones Show and he and he says that and Alex Jones, to his credit, says, I don't really think there's much good to say about Adolf Hitler, except for, you know, maybe if you want to talk about the the German uniforms, they were pretty sharp.

You know, I mean, and and Connie is just not having it. It keeps going anyway. Yeah, when when he's trying to. He says, yeah, yeah. Machen says Congress ought to be called in extra session in order to take up the case of John Smith in an alien, a sedition law.

He's still caring about that. He says the criminal is now the victim. And I'm like, yep. I mean, like bail is discrimination. And I'm like, no, no bail is so that you'll show up in court when you're supposed to.

And and, you know, but that's the that's a society we live in where it's not your fault. And I mean, it was interesting. Just watched a an episode of Law and Order where people are just going into this grocery store in New York City and they're just like helping themselves all the time.

And I'm like, OK, that's real life. That's what people are doing. You know, and I just thought to myself, how are people in New York City and other big cities where shoplifting is now legal? How are the store owners to make a living?

And I don't know. I really don't. OK, number 18, what is because he uses this term and, you know, we don't use it enough. What is paganism? Yeah, he says paganism is that view of life which finds the highest goal of human existence in the healthy and harmonious and joyous development of existing human faculties.

Very different as the Christian ideal, paganism is optimistic with regard to. And here's I think this is probably the most important part. Paganism is optimistic with regard to unaided human nature, whereas Christianity is the religion of the broken heart.

I wish he hadn't said broken heart. I would have said. I would have said something more like a realistic view of mankind or a pessimistic view, you know, up to. Yes. Yeah. But but I mean, I just want to contrast it with paganism.

Paganism says mankind is inherently good, right? Christianity says mankind is inherently evil. So I like those ideas. But paganism, I mean, if you just read his definition there, you'd have to go. Yeah, paganism is the prevailing religion of the world.

Yes. Number 19, why should Christians be the most joyful of people? I, I think that's good, right? Hope, you know, when I meet people in there, I mean, I was thinking about somebody that I've talked to a few times here recently, not at the church.

And I just thought and I know she's not a Christian. And I just think, boy, her. Demeanor is just one of kind of despair and, you know, sadness. I'm like, you need to get saved, woman. And in Christianity, on the other hand, nothing needs to be covered up.

The fact of sin is faced squarely once for all. Is that true, though? What does the psalmist say when, you know, he covers up his sin or when he doesn't confess it? That his. Yeah, his bones dried, his kind of flesh withered, you know, he's just like.

And after sin has been removed by the grace of God, the Christian can proceed to develop joyously every faculty that God has given him, such is such as the higher Christian humanism, a humanism founded not upon human pride, but about upon divine grace.

So we ought to be the most joyful of people, whether we are or not. You know, I can hear Pastor Mike saying, send a missionary to your face. I like that. Number number 20. No, you may not. Next. Did you just conflate the law of God in the gospel?

Yeah, well, I mean, it sounded like that in your question. Let's go to the tape. How would I say it better than Machen? In other words, if we're to have awareness of our own sin, then what do we do? We preach.

We preach the law to ourselves, don't we? In the lives of. Well, OK. And I hate to get down into the weeds here, but he uses in the lives, right? Not the law of God. Through the lives, we don't proclaim the law through our lives.

Look at me. Well, I was I was going to get close because the law of God must be proclaimed in the lives. OK, living it out. Well, I think I think you need to read the last sentence of the paragraph. The rank and file of the church must do their part in so proclaiming the law of God by their lives that the secrets secrets of men's hearts shall be revealed.

So I don't know about that. I mean, that it that it does kind of draw a question mark in the sense that. If if people are to look at my life and therefore feel guilty by the way they're living and and and I think, yeah, and I and I think that's I think that's good.

But I but you know what I would say if I were to frame what he said in a kind of help us a little bit, I would say, you know, just that it's important that we proclaim the law of God. Right. How do we tell people whether we're whether we're keeping all the law of God or not?

Because we're not. The proclamation of the law of God, the bad news. Yeah. So I so I think that's good. But but again, I think, you know, like I mean, I could read that and I could say, well, then what do we need to do?

We need to police up society. Yeah. And so I I mean, I don't necessarily like the way that's phrased and I know he wasn't a legalist. So so if I was his editor, I'd go, I don't think you're saying what you mean to say here the wrong way.

Yeah. Right. I would agree with that.

OK, number 20. True or false, we need to stop treating the little sins as if they are big sins. As yes, definitely false. He says, how can the consciousness see? And this is just him moving on. And this is right.

How can the consciousness of sin be revived? Something no doubt can be accomplished by the proclamation of the law of God for the law reveals transgressions. The whole of the law, moreover, should be proclaimed.

Will hardly be wise to adopt the suggestion recently offered among the suggestions as to the ways in which we should have to modify our message. Blah, blah, blah, blah. That we should stop treating the little sins as though they were big sins.

You know, this way leads to. Anti-nominism is through the little sins, he says, that Satan gains an entrance into our lives. It's good to, you know, how easy example, how could Paul say in First Timothy, you know, I'm the chief of all sinners.

How could he do that? And and I think, you know, to just kind of amplify what you're saying as we mature in Christ, as we grow in Christ, then the little sins. Become greater in our eyes because like Roman seven, even though, you know, maybe we're not committing great sins, the little sins we that we would like to stop doing, we don't stop doing.

Yes, exactly right. Number 21, true or false, conviction of sin is liberating. Well, I have true. Yeah. I mean, yeah, conviction of sin. Can lead to what, you know, the cover up of sin or the denial of sin.

It is quite useless for the preacher to breathe out fire and brimstone from the pulpit if everybody is taking it lightly. Conviction of sin is a great mystery, which can be produced only by the spirit of God.

So I think that's the important phrase, our conviction of sin. When a man is comes out of conviction of sin, his whole attitude toward life is transformed. I mean, I was just thinking about what's the guy's name?

The bomb bomber fighter in a pilot, not pilot, but he was a bombardier or something in World War Two. And he goes to the Billy Graham crusade. And anyway, he gets convicted. I can't think of the guy's name.

It was a really great book. Well, I think he just gets convicted. He's a drunkard and he has a lot of problems and he just gets convicted and it really changes his life. He goes from being an angry, bitter man to being quite the evangelist.

I can't think of his name here at the moment or the name of the book. What's that? Yeah, Unbroken is the name of the book. Yeah, but I think the movie sort of took all the gospel message out of it. Yeah, shocking.

Who knew? Okay, now we're in 22. True or false, modern preaching is generally more convicting than ever. I mean, when you hear somebody like Rick Warren wax eloquent about sin, you've really got something.

Because that, I don't know, that, yeah, I don't know if that has happened yet. I mean, wouldn't that be a great book? You know, Rick Warren is like, writes a book called The Sin-Filled Life, you know, and it's just like railing against sin.

Okay, he says modern preachers are trying to bring men into the church without requiring them to relinquish their pride. I mean, I just want to let that hang there because not only do they say, don't relinquish your pride, they say, be proud of your pride.

They are trying to help men avoid the conviction of sin. I really should have brought some Reverend Bob Shuler quotes this morning. I mean, some of you younger guys don't know who Shuler is. But I think I mentioned him before, but he built the Crystal Cathedral.

He wrote a book. Imagine this title, Believe in the God Who Believes in You. And they actually gave that out in the jails. And I mean, just, you know, thousands of copies of this thing. And they were floating around for a while.

So one night I had a Christian sergeant I worked with. His name was Dennis. And he had a copy of that book. And I said, I'll tell you what, let's just do this. You flip the chapter or you flip the book open to a page.

And, you know, let's see how long it takes you to find heresy. And then I'll flip it open to a different page and we'll see who can get to the heresy. It's just unbelievable. You know, I mean, hey. So he says, he says, the preacher gets up into the pulpit, opens the Bible and addresses the congregation somewhat as follows.

You people are very good. You respond to every appeal that looks toward the welfare of the community. Now we have in the Bible, especially in the life of Jesus, something so good that we believe it is good enough even for you good people.

Such is modern preaching. Yeah, you know, I went to church on Sunday and what the pastor said made me feel good, but not good enough. You know, I kept looking for something that made me feel even better.

It is heard every Sunday of thousands of pulpits, but is entirely futile. Even our Lord did not call the righteous to repentance. And probably we shall be no more successful than he. Yeah, probably not going to do better than Jesus.

No, probably not. Probably not. Okay. Yes, you have a question. I see that. Yes. Yeah, there's no release for it. Well, and yes, but I think Keith has just expressed the life or summarized the life of Martin Luther prior to, you know, salvation.

Because, you know, the more he learned of the law of God, the more despondent he became, right? The more convicted he became, the more he realized that the Roman Catholic system offered nothing but more guilt, you know, and well, or you just do what he did, which was, you know, just, okay, well, I guess I'm not confessing enough.

I'm not doing enough, you know, and so you get on the treadmill of works. Yeah, can't win, you know, the Homer Simpson thing. He says, he looks at his son and says, well, you know what? What's the son's name?

Bart. He says to Bart, he goes, that's right. That's right, son. Can't win. Don't try. Immortal words. Yeah, can't win. Don't try. I'm going to find a message to entitle can't win. Don't try. Just for Dave.

The Two Great Presuppositions of Christianity Versus Liberalism

Okay, chapter four. Number one, true or false? While traditional Christianity and liberal Christianity come at things from different perspectives, their endpoints are remarkably similar. Nice try, though.

Really? Their endpoints are remarkably similar. Okay. That's an end point, right? Misha says modern liberalism has been observed so far has lost sight of the two great presuppositions of the Christian message, the living God and the fact of sin.

Other than that, it's doing pretty well. He says the liberal doctrine of God and the liberal doctrine of man are both diametrically opposite to the Christian view. But their divergence concerns not only the presuppositions of the message, but also the message itself.

According to the Christian view, the Bible contains an account of a revelation from God to man, which is found nowhere else, which implies liberals believe that. These truths can be found elsewhere, right?

The Christian experience, I mean, even, and I think we're going to see this developed as well. If you just believe that the Bible is one of many holy books, and which, you know, if you listen to a liberal Christian, I don't need to name names, but even some liberal Christians who have been, and when I say liberal Christians, I want to lowercase the C, you know, liberal Christians who have held high office in this country.

What do they talk about? They talk about the great religions, and they will refer to these other great religious leaders, and they'll attribute really great things to them. Well, how can they do that?

Because they're Christians lower C, in other words, they're cultural Christians, but maybe not biblical Christians. Okay, number two. Thank you for liking that. Because you liked it, we'll move on to number two.

Number two, true or false? Hey, if you didn't like it, we'd just stay on one for longer until I got some amens. Amen. Number two, true or false? That's all, that's all. Just keep mashing that. Well, I can keep you all here until tomorrow, you know.

True or false? The notion of man having communion with God is unknown in the Old Testament. See, now I think that's a little tricky, because I have true. Okay, now if you want to say Adam and Eve, maybe I can go with that.

I think after that, though, it's a little more difficult. I mean, I guess it depends on how you define communion. Here's what Machen says. The Bible also contains an account of a revelation which is absolutely new.

That new revelation concerns the way by which sinful man can come into communion with the living God.

It wasn't my error. Oh, no. I am preserved without error. Sinful man having communion.

Yeah, well, I did put capital M, man. So, you know, yeah. I think you guys are wrong. So, I'm going with... Yeah, yeah. Hit the like and subscribe. Okay, well, let's just think about this for a minute.

What is it when he says that new revelation concerns the way by which sinful man can come into communion with the living God? What makes that new from the Old Testament? In other words, what didn't exist in the Old Testament that exists in the New Testament?

Okay, I mean, there's something revolutionary, and I think that's his point. You know, there's something revolutionary about the Old Testament. Revolutionary in the New Testament. And, you know, in contrast with the liberals who say, you know, all religions have truth.

Right? I mean, I, you know, my dad used to say things to me like he would compare Christianity... What's a really old Middle Eastern religion? What's that? Yeah, but I mean, it's really... It has the whole mother-daughter thing or mother-son thing and, you know, all these other things.

No, but close. Anyway, he would say, well, what about Zoroastrianism? You know, and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, it's got this and it's got that. And I'm just like, okay, what would you do if you were Satan?

I mean, if I were Satan, I would produce counterfeit after counterfeit after counterfeit, which, you know, even like Mormonism, a lot of truth in Mormonism. You know, they'll even tell you Jesus is God.

And they'll even say, I mean, one of my aunts this week wrote something about, you know, oh, isn't it wonderful that, you know, Jesus is sufficient? You know, and I'm like, oh, yeah, it is. I think to myself, it just depends on how you define sufficient.

I mean, there's definitely, you know, truth there, right? I mean, if we just think about this way, the Old Testament looks forward to the cross, New Testament looks back at it, right? What was anticipated has now come to pass.

We could definitely say that. But, you know, just this idea of communion, if we could just define that a little bit, if we're going to say, you know, the way he's using it here, how would you define that coming into communion with God?

Okay, fellowship. And I think that's kind of better. Sorry, sorry, Chuck. Right relationship, right? How about even, let's use a biblical term, reconciled, right? And it would have been nice, you know, again, if I was writing this book, maybe today, I would certainly bring that in.

Why? Because I want people to understand that there was a disruption, right? And that in the relationship between God and man with a capital M. And Christ reconciled us, right? The second Corinthians 521 language.

Well, you can think that all you want. But, you know, here, let me just show you. See, it's got yellow highlighter right there, which means it is definitely true.

Yes, yeah. Yeah, okay.

Well, then, okay, I think then we'd have to say that Machen obliterated himself. Okay, no, he says the Bible also contains an account of a revelation, which is absolutely new. That new revelation contains or concerns the way by which sinful man can come into communion with the living God.

Now, you'll just look at the Old Testament, and you won't see. Yes, okay. Okay, can I just? Yeah, can I just? Let's go to the context, top of page 60, right after that new revelation concerns the way by which sinful man can come into communion with the living God.

Next sentence. The way was opened, according to the Bible, by an act of God. When almost 1900 years ago, outside the walls of Jerusalem, the eternal Son was offered as a sacrifice for the sins of. Okay, right, right, but it didn't, it didn't.

All right, well, yeah, I'm going to. Okay, I think Machen's self-obliterated, but you know, the beautiful thing about, and I've said it before, about writing controversial questions is it stirs discussion.

Okay, number three. Yes, Keith, that's a good question. See, I think, again, it depends on how we determine that word communion, how we define it. Let me ask you this. Somebody who partakes in communion, are they a communist?

So, all right. All right, moving right along. Number three, why does Machen describe salvation as something that happened? Tourful, okay, okay, good. Salvation is made for you, not by you. Yep, yeah, so it's an actual event, not an experience.

Machen says salvation, then, according to the Bible, is something, is not something that was discovered, but something that happened. But if you pray enough about it, you'll get a burning. So, yeah, okay, well.

Hence appears the uniqueness of the Bible, of all the ideas of Christianity might be discovered in, although all the ideas of Christianity might be discovered in some other religion, which is what I was saying earlier, even Zoroastrianism.

Yet there would be, in that other religion, no Christianity, for Christianity depends not upon a complex of ideas, not a system of ideas, but upon the narration of an event. Without that event, the world, in the Christian view, is altogether dark, and humanity is lost under the guilt of sin.

There can be no salvation by the discovery of eternal truth, for eternal truth brings naught but despair because of sin. But a new face has been put upon life by the blessed thing that God did when he offered up his only begotten son.

So Christianity really ultimately is about the event, not about a system of ideas, complicated though they may be. All right, number four, true or false, experience can serve as a vital confirmation of the gospel message.

Could go either way. Chuck says false. Okay, let's see. Tell the truth and shame the devil. How many say true? Okay, how many say false? Okay, let's see. Let's see what's in the ink. True experience. Yeah, that's what the yellow highlighter says.

Okay, well, let's just read what Machen says, and then we can debate some more. Christian experience, as we have said, is useful as confirming the gospel message. That sounds pretty much like the question.

But because it is necessary, many men have jumped to the conclusion that it is all that is necessary. So experience can serve as a vital confirmation. Yes, yes, but it's not the message itself. Yeah, you know, I should have bolded vital.

To really throw people off. I would have tricked Dave then. Yeah, but that's the beauty of the question when you get right down to it. Yeah, it is true. But you know what's shocking to me? I mean, I won't name any names or anything, but I've spoken with people at length about their testimony, about how they've come to know Jesus Christ.

And there have been a few people who, no matter what I say, and no matter what the Bible says, can't get away from the experience part. There's no objective reality whatsoever. And I mean, I remember dealing with this one couple, and they were both so... if I could just put it this way, old, that I realized that I had basically two choices here, and you can flagellate me for being a compromiser here, and I'll accept it.

I thought to myself, if I say, I'm not even sure you guys are saved, and I don't, therefore, allow them into the church, because we don't take unsaved people under membership, they're going to go to another church.

Now, was I afraid of losing their money? But I thought, okay, at this stage of their lives, which would I rather have them do? Sit here and listen to the truth week after week, after week, after week, after week, or go somewhere else where they might, I don't know.

You know, and someday, according to James 3, I'm going to face a stricter judgment, right? So, you know, compromising Steve, I know. And that's the ultimate thing. I don't really know, but I'm just listening and going.

I mean, you know, if this were, you know, like a baseball practice, I've gone from throwing the really hard and fast balls to, you know, bigger ones, and now I've taken out the big rubber ball, and, you know, I'm just like, here, hit this.

You know, I'm just like, hit something. And it's not looking good for the home team. And, you know, so I don't know, ultimately, but, you know, if it were up to me, but, you know, Steve can be a little legalistic, so maybe I'm just, you know, too harsh.

I don't know, but one more story.

Yes, Keith, good point. I mean, and to just kind of underscore that, you know, I mean, when people are going to get baptized, they send me their testimony. Testimony. And, you know, I try to avoid the George Harrison version of things, which is all through the day, I, me, mine, I, me, mine, I, me, mine.

So just remind me of that. I, me, mine. So I get a testimony from somebody in it, and they said, you know, this was 30 pages, and now I've cut it down to 15. And I'm like, pages, I'm just going. So, you know, it was an hour-long testimony, you know, yeah.

So I just kind of, I thought I can either edit this, or I can encourage more self-editing. So that's what I did. But yeah, 15 pages. I think you're missing the point. Okay, let's see. Machen, having a present experience of Christ in the heart, may we not hold that experience, no matter what history may tell us to the events of the first Easter morning.

Right. May we not make ourselves altogether independent of the results of biblical criticism, no matter what sort of man history may tell us Jesus and Nazareth. Okay. May we not continue to experience the presence of Christ in our souls.

I like how he says, I have to read that part. He goes, no matter what history may say about the real meaning of his death or about the story of his alleged resurrection, may we not continue to experience the presence of Christ in our souls.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, and you know what's hard, and you guys already know this, because what's hard is, you know, the realization that, I mean, I don't objectively know a lot of things, right? I mean, just a guy.

But sometimes I listen and I'm going, man, if that was me saying that, would I, you know, would I believe I was saved? I don't know. I think I'd have a hard time. But can people give all the right answers and not be saved?

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, I think that's a good question. And I think, you know, sometimes it's just, it's hard to know. I mean, well, let's take it, you know, since I mentioned the baptism thing, which do you suppose that I, what should we set a higher threshold for church membership or baptism?