July 22, 2020 Show with Dick Guido on “Church vs. State: Not Intrinsically in Opposition” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com

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this is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 22nd day of July 2020 and just a heads up folks if we happen to go off the air it might not necessarily be because some leftists in government power have kicked us off the air or some other entity unbeknownst to us but there is a thunderstorm thunder and lightning storm going on outside and you never know when that goes on if we are going to retain power

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I hope that we do because we have a very important program it's part two of a subject matter that we began in May of this year this is part two of church versus state question mark not intrinsically in opposition and to discuss this once again is

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Dick Guido elder of the Providence Presbyterian Church in Huntsville Alabama and member of both the

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New York and Alabama Bar Association and the Bar of the Supreme Court and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dick Guido thank you so much

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Chris it's very good for you to have me back I'm looking forward to it and before we go into this very important subject at hand which seems to be growing in its relevance as we watch with horror things going on in the news across our nation tell us about the

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Providence Presbyterian Church in Huntsville Alabama. Providence Presbyterian Church was founded in approximately 2005.

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I was a ruling elder there for 12 years until I left and moved up to Pennsylvania because of medical reasons for my wife.

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It is a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Its pastor is

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Pastor Darren Toley. Pastor Toley has been there since 2010.

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We've experienced a good deal of growth at Providence Presbyterian Church.

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It is a church that I regard as a church that is filled with unity.

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It is filled with expectation as to what the Lord will provide in terms of his word.

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There are faithful hearers and faithful doers there so I can't recommend the church highly enough for those of you who are in the south and get to Huntsville the rocket city where the space and rocket center is and many other attractions.

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So are you back there in Alabama or are you still in Pennsylvania? I'm in North Carolina Chris.

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I'm a member of Shiloh Presbyterian Church here in Raleigh North Carolina.

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Since I left Alabama, again because of my late wife's condition, the

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Presbytery of the South appointed me to augment the session in Huntsville Alabama.

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Which is what I'm doing. I see. Well it's great to have you on the show and if anybody has any further questions about Providence Presbyterian Church in Huntsville Alabama you can find them on the internet at ProvidenceHuntsville .com.

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ProvidenceHuntsville .com. What's the website of your current church? SHILOHOPC .ORG.

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SHILOHOPC .ORG. I'm correct in the spelling of Shiloh, right?

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SHILOH, correct? Correct. Alrighty, well let me also give our listeners our email address if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own about church versus state.

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Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -N at gmail .com. And as always give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Well, much has been written and discussed in recent months concerning the interaction of the churches and the civil magistrate as they both encounter the coronavirus pandemic.

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So I'd like to hear your responses to any updates that have occurred since our last discussion in May and as far as the rise of the coronavirus both in its realities and also the hysteria that has been unfortunately attached to it.

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Sure, Chris. Let me say that when we look at the most recent developments as far as the churches and the coronavirus,

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I think it's very important to put them in the context of what the

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Constitution actually says about the relationship between church and state. It's only 16 words in the

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First Amendment. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

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Now those 16 words have been extensively debated and indeed litigated in the context of the coronavirus.

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The scripture's teaching on the matter of obedience or disobedience to civil authority basically comes from several sources in the scripture.

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Let me summarize that God has established civil authority for his glory, for our good, and for the punishment of wrongdoers.

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And Chris, as you pointed out in seeing what's going on in our society right now, both that portion of the establishment of civil authority in the form of the civil magistrate gets into what is for our good and also for the punishment of the wrongdoing that we see so much going on in our society.

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Having said that, the Christians are generally obligated to obey civil authority.

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I would call it the so -called default position. And that's true, and this is an important portion of God's word on this matter.

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That obedience is due even if those authorities are evil or permit evil.

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And certainly our Lord's own life and experiences are very important manifestations of that duty, even in the face of an evil civil magistrate.

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Well, one of the things that complicates matters, though, in regard to the way that the government has restricted the public gatherings of churches, and those seem to have been loosened greatly, if not completely, depending upon where you live.

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But there are those that believe that the local governments, the state governments, depending upon where you live, have wrongfully exercised authority that they don't have to interrupt the free exercise of our religion.

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In fact, I've had Christians on this show who seem to have disagreed over this, and I speak regularly to Christians, even those that seem to have a level of authority on this issue, depending upon what they do in their career or what they have read and studied.

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But there are those that I have interviewed even on this show, and they have said, no, the government was completely legitimate in its insisting that congregations shut down at the time that they did for public gathered worship.

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And there are those others that I've had on my show who said, no, the local governors of individual states have no such authority to do that.

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So, where are you coming from on this? Well, I think it's very important to look at really what's happened in this country.

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I know, as a theoretical matter, it's very easy for what

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I would call Christian libertarians to take the view that whenever the civil magistrate purports to deal with the churches, he is acting extra -constitutionally.

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I don't see that in terms of what I have just read in Romans 13, that the civil magistrate is established for our own good and for the punishment of wrongdoers.

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Now, that's certainly not to say that the power of the magistrate is unlimited, and that's one of the basic things that I wanted to get into and which we discussed last time is establishing a spectrum that runs from Romans 13 to Acts 5 .29

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As to those areas in which progressively Christians are, first of all, obligated to obey the civil magistrate, but progressing to certain situations where they not only may, but they're obligated to disobey the civil magistrate.

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So that's the general context that I would respond to that question, and I think it's important then to look at where we are on that spectrum right now.

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The churches are not closed in the United States. Worship is not prohibited.

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The restrictions that have been put in place have been temporary and limited in scope.

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They are, in my view, an appropriate exercise of the civil magistrate's authority, given his

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God -given responsibilities in Romans 13, to protect public health and welfare.

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Let's remember, Chris, that I got my monthly or daily update on the statistics of the coronavirus.

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As of this morning, more than 142 ,000 people have died in this country of the coronavirus.

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More than 1 .8 million people have been affected. This virus has inflicted incalculable economic damage to the country.

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So the actions of the civil magistrate, therefore, in protecting the population and in doing that, regulating the churches, under my view, do not offend the

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Constitution of the United States. They do not progress to the point that we are obligated as Christians, given

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Acts 529, to resist and disobey the civil magistrate.

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So I'm very much aware of the civil libertarian position, if you want to call it that, but I have to say that I simply disagree with it.

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I think that when we, as Christians, are obligated to do, when we take into account the whole counsel of God, you have that spectrum that authorizes and indeed requires

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Christian obedience as a default position, and only disobedience in an extreme situation, and I do not believe, at this point in our society, that we have yet reached that extreme position.

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That has been largely attributed to the very exercise of government restrictions on businesses and so forth.

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So that has actually been used as a reason for claiming the government has overreached its constitutional authority and has been a very negative thing for this country.

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And going back to the numbers of people who have perished, obviously, anybody who perishes from this is reason for mourning, and we are very sad about this occurring, and we mourn with those who mourn, but at the same time,

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I have understood that comparatively to other illnesses, like even the flu, this has not been as serious as other illnesses that never required such harsh restrictions.

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Well, Chris, I would say that it is a difficult question.

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I would say that when you look at the responsibilities of church leaders and those responsibilities that are given to them under the fifth commandment to see to the welfare of their flocks, that responsibility under the fifth commandment is not limited to the churches.

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It is also expressly given to the civil magistrate to see to the welfare of his subjects, and I think that has been done in this case.

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I think it has been the case that had we had no regulation upon the gathering of the churches for public worship,

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I hate to see what the result would have been in the churches.

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Let me go back, if I may, to what Martin Luther said about this, about the responsibility of church leaders to shepherd their flocks.

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He asked the question, may one flee from a deadly plague?

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And the only way that Luther can, he goes after those who he says are much too rash and reckless, tempting

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God and disregarding everything which might counteract death and the plague.

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There he is raising, I think which is a very important question and that I would offer to my

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Christian colleagues who have a much differed position than I do as far as a civil libertarian view.

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You must examine, is there not a point when you are no longer honoring

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God but tempting him by virtue of your actions with regard to your congregation.

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Luther goes on, one who disregards everything in holding public worship in the face of a plague, injures his body and must be aware lest he become a suicide in God's eyes.

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It is shameful for a person to pay no heed to his own body and fail to protect it against the plague as best as he is able and then to infect and poison others who might have remained alive if he had taken care of his body as he should have.

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I think those are pretty strong words and I think those words apply to ministers and sessions today who have an important obligation to sit back and take a deep breath when they look at a portion of scripture that seems to dictate that they examine or gather for public worship despite the rules of the civil magistrate.

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What are the consequences as far as they're doing so? If one person in the congregation passes away as a result of the

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COVID virus, what do they say to the family?

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If there are neighborhoods and homes in the close vicinity of the church where they have gathered in violation of civil magistrate restrictions and the coronavirus spreads to those homes, what is the reaction of those people as far as the church is concerned?

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What view do they have of the church? They view the church as an entity that views itself as being free from the restrictions that bind everybody else and they do it in the name of religion.

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So I think those are some of the things that are very important in looking at the question that you raised,

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Chris. Well, you basically have set out some principles that we should go by when trying to understand this more clearly.

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For instance, our obligation as Christians to place ourselves in any particular situation and determine what our response should be, it's not always easy to do in the context of something like a coronavirus pandemic.

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And first of all, we're faced with not good versus evil, which would make matters easier when we make decisions, but good versus good, if you could explain that a little bit more.

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Yeah, in terms of good versus good, that's always the more difficult proposition, isn't it, than the case of good versus evil.

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The goods in this case are the obligation that we have, admittedly, it is an obligation for Christians to gather together and to worship the

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God of Scripture. But it is also a good to obey the dictates of the civil magistrate, which are, after all, intended for the protection of those who are doing well.

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So when a church and a minister meet to consider what it is that they should be doing in light of the coronavirus, it would be easy if the civil magistrate were an evil entity and portrayed that way in Scripture.

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And I'm afraid there are those in the Christian libertarian school who are apt to do that, and that makes their decision easy.

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It's easy in the context of the COVID -19 to say that we can't gather to obey the dictates of an evil civil magistrate, because on the good side, we are commanded to gather together for worship, but it's not that easy.

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We have John in Bangor, Maine who asks, I have heard that there have been churches in certain states that although they have been given back the freedom to reopen their buildings for public worship, they have been restricted from singing because that is believed to be a further agent of spreading the coronavirus.

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Is this kind of thing acceptable to you, where actually the government is getting involved in the order of worship and actual elements within what we consider commands of Scripture to practice in our public gatherings?

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Excellent question. I have just been looking at that situation.

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Your caller is referencing what California has done.

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California has taken the position that even though the churches may be open for public worship, you reach a point where there are restrictions that have to be imposed on them for spreading the virus within the congregation.

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One of those restrictions is that the church not engage in singing or engage in the use of wind instruments, the feeling being that that increases the risk of the spread of the virus through droplets.

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It's interesting that when you look at some of the cases that have developed in this, the case of California and the restrictions that California imposed went to the

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United States Supreme Court. That's the first time that the United States Supreme Court has considered the issue.

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The case there was whether churches, I think there were about six churches in California that sought an injunction to prevent

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Governor Newsom from implementing the California state prohibition.

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The United States Supreme Court ruled 5 -4 in favor of the state of California.

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It indicated to me that even though this was a situation where you had only a request for a preliminary injunction, in other words, it's not dealing the case fully on the merits, that were this question to be put before the

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Supreme Court on the merits, the Supreme Court might very well side on the side of the civil magistrate.

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I don't think it's an accident that within several weeks after the state of California won in the

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Supreme Court that you had these regulations and restrictions on singing within the congregations within the state of California.

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I gather from the question that your caller asked is that he's got a problem with that and I agree with him because there are two different situations there.

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In the first situation, the Supreme Court of the United States said that the state of California may lawfully restrict who comes into worship, but by its regulation several days later, the state purports to regulate what the churches can do once the people are inside worship.

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I think those are two very different propositions and I would go back to my spectrum between Romans 13 -1 and Acts 5 -29.

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I think your caller would agree with this that once you start regulating what can be done within worship and in this case singing,

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I think you take another step forward toward Acts 5 -29 when the churches are obligated to disobey the civil magistrate.

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After all, we know that the scriptures enjoin the singing of praise to Almighty God.

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So that would be my answer, perhaps long -winded, but I think that's an excellent question. Yes it is, and I don't know if it ever came down to this as far as a restriction imposed by a local government anywhere, but I had heard rumors about even the

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Lord's Supper being banned because they thought that that aided in further spread or risk of spread of the virus, and that would obviously be along the same lines of what you just mentioned.

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It is the case, and I would say that at least from our own experience in my church at Shiloh Presbyterian Church, the elders there have taken very great care in terms of how the elements are to be distributed in terms of the

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Lord's Supper, recognizing that yes, that is the closest possible contact that people in the church have with other people in the church.

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And so great restrictions and great care has to be taken in doing that. The elders wear masks, they have gloves on their hands.

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There is a limit on handling the bread and the wine and the distribution of the elements.

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So I think that is in response to a very legitimate concern. If I can go on to, if I'm not blowing on them too long,

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Chris, just to make one more point on the Lord's Supper. And this case happens not in the

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United States, but it happens in Thessalonica in Greece in the

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Greek Orthodox Church. In the Greek Orthodox Church it is the pattern to have a common cup, and in the common cup the wine and the bread are mixed.

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And then when the people in the congregation do come up to partake of the elements, the priest spoons out in a common spoon both the bread and the wine, and he places it in the mouth of the congregants who come up to receive the

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Holy Eucharist. Now you talk about a close matter of contact that has a risk of spreading the virus, so much so that the civil authorities in Thessalonica took the position that said, you can't do that, you're violating our restrictions on the spread of the virus.

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And the church took the position that that is blasphemy.

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When you as a civil magistrate say that contagion can be spread from the body and blood of Jesus Christ, that is blasphemy, and they have refused to go along with the requirements there of the civil magistrate.

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And I haven't heard more on the case, but my understanding was that the civil magistrate in that case backed down.

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But your caller is right and your question is right that things like the

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Lord's Supper, things like singing, once we get involved in those types of things, we have a far different situation than we do in simply can we assemble for public worship.

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I want to ask a follow -up question when we return from the first break. If anybody would like to join us, send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Dick Guido and our discussion of church versus state question mark right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Thank you. Welcome back this is Chris Arms and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the entirety of the program is

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Dick Guido Elder of the Providence Presbyterian Church in Huntsville, Alabama and member of both the

42:25

New York and Alabama Bar Association and the Bar of the Supreme Court we are discussing part two of a discussion that we began in May that is church versus state not intrinsically in opposition our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail dot com as always give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

42:51

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and Dick you were just talking about an

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Eastern Orthodox Church in Thessalonica that refused to stop using one common cup and one common spoon in distributing the elements of the

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Lord's Supper as they see to be necessary where the bread and the wine are mixed in a cup and spooned out and given in one with one common spoon to everybody in the congregation they refused to stop doing that even though the government attempted to restrict them from doing that and apparently the church won out in the long run.

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Now you and I from what I understand of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and I being a

43:45

Reformed Baptist we would both reject not only that practice of the

43:52

Lord's Supper we would especially reject it as being a requirement in faithfully observing the

44:00

Lord's Supper. We would see that the elements of the way that this is being practiced is very superstitious saying that because of course they believe in the real body and blood of Christ physically being present and that would never be a conduit to spreading any kind of a virus.

44:21

Obviously that's that is a superstition. But at the same time how are we to view these things as protecting and preserving as American citizens the rights of our fellow citizens to freely exercise their religion even when we disagree with them.

44:43

We believe that the free exercise of religion is not only something to be preserved for Bible believing

44:50

Evangelical Christians and Reformed Christians but obviously we believe that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Jews and Muslims and Roman Catholics and others as long as they are not threatening the lives of others in a real way as long as they are freely exercising their religion in such a manner where those who are their neighbors are not being opposed upon also we would believe that they should have the right to exercise even what we would call heresy and blasphemy.

45:30

So how are we to respond to something like what you just said? Well I guess

45:36

I would respond to it in terms of the breadth of the protections that this government affords to churches mosques and synagogues without distinctions.

45:57

I think it's a rare government indeed that whose attorney general would issue a memorandum to the faith community this was in October of 2017 that went at great length to remind the churches of the freedoms that they enjoy under the

46:23

United States Constitution. Just to summarize some of them very briefly number one, freedom of religion is a fundamental right of paramount importance expressly protected by the

46:39

Constitution and federal law. The free exercise of religion includes the right to act or refrain from acting in accordance with one's religious beliefs.

46:52

The right to believe what one wants is absolute and I think

46:57

I said this the last time that I was on as a lawyer I see pretty few cases where I can say that something is absolute in the law but the right to believe what one wants is an absolutely guaranteed right under the federal

47:15

Constitution. It is certainly true that the right to practice those beliefs in some instances may be limited and that's exactly what we're seeing here in the case of the over the

47:31

COVID -19 but the government has a very high burden to pass to justify any limitations upon the practice of worship.

47:44

Freedom of religion extends to persons and to organizations. Americans do not give up their freedom of religion by choosing to participate in the marketplace or interact with government.

47:59

Government may not target religious individuals or entities through discriminatory enforcement.

48:08

Religious employers are entitled to employ only persons whose beliefs and conduct are consistent with the employer's religious precepts.

48:18

And that gets to a case that I hope to be able to get to discuss today that was decided since we last met by the

48:26

United States Supreme Court. So suffice it to say that the freedoms that are given to the churches by the

48:34

United States government are broad indeed and if you look at how the cases have gone which

48:41

I also wanted to discuss since the cases since we last met most of those in fact have gone in favor of the churches not all of them but many of them have so I think that's an answer to the point that you raised.

49:00

Well why don't you discuss those very things that you mentioned. Okay and in terms of the cases that have recently arisen in terms of the cases that have gone in favor of the civil magistrate the one that's first and foremost and that is because it was decided by the

49:31

United States Supreme Court this took place on May 29 was

49:36

South Bay Pentecostal Church versus Newsom Gavin Newsom the governor of California South Bay Pentecostal Church and several other

49:47

California churches sought to stop Governor Newsom from enforcing his executive order which put restrictions on church worship because of the virus they claimed that the order infringed their first amendment right it was a 5 to 4 decision and the

50:04

Supreme Court sided with Governor Newsom the decision was written by Chief Justice Roberts his position was that in a pandemic like what is currently going on in the

50:19

United States courts should defer to politically elected officials who must be given the widest possible latitude to act in reliance on the advice from the medical doctors you cannot have a situation where unelected judges second guess elected officials and health experts that was by no means a unanimous decision four of the justices dissented and Justice Kavanaugh wrote a dissenting opinion he felt that the churches were being singled out by the

50:56

California restrictions restrictions were being placed upon the churches that were not being placed on business gatherings this is a quote from his opinion assuming all the same precautions are taken why can someone safely walk down a grocery store aisle but not a pew and why can someone safely interact with a brave delivery man but not with a stoic minister

51:25

I guess he had Presbyterian churches in mind I don't know but he says that the first amendment does not have an exception for pandemics so that decision by the

51:42

United States Supreme Court with regard to California was also the predicate as we talked about for the subsequent regulations by the state that limited the singing in the churches well we have to go to our midway break right now and you can continue where you left off when we come back this is the longer than normal break folks please be patient please remember that we have to use this middle break to allow

52:15

Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida to obey

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FCC regulations in regard to localizing this show to Lake City, Florida so therefore while they air their own public service announcements in the middle of the show we air our globally heard commercials please use this time wisely and write down as much of the information for as many of the advertisers that we broadcast as you possibly can so that you can more successfully patronize them and that should

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God willing result in our advertisers desiring to remain as our advertisers and therefore

52:58

God willing we should be able to remain on the air for a longer future because we absolutely rely upon our advertisers to exist so please do that and please also send in questions to our guest

53:15

Dick Guido on church versus state question mark and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

53:25

chrisarnson at gmail .com and as always give us your first name your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

53:34

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter we'll be right back with Dick Guido after these messages from our sponsors was your business shut down during the

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That's PTLBibleRebinding .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Before we return to our interview with Dick Guido on church versus state question mark, we have some important announcements to make.

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I am going to be attending, God willing, to Man in Exhibitor's Booth on August 28th and 29th, which is a

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Friday and Saturday, the Basics of Biblical Counseling Conference, which is going to be held at High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania.

01:14:43

I hope as many of you as possible will attend that event with me and greet me at my

01:14:49

Exhibitor's Booth. This is going to be, I think, a really helpful conference, not only for church leaders, but for laypeople alike, on knowing more about what

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Biblical counseling truly is and why it is so important in the life of the church.

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Lectures are going to be conducted by Dale Johnson, the Executive Director of ACBC, which stands for the

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Biblical Counselor, Secular and Integration Theories, What Makes Biblical Counseling Biblical, and a

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Q &A session with the audience. That's going to be Friday night and all day

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Saturday until 5 p .m. Please join me there by registering at BiblicalCounseling .com

01:15:54

forward slash Scranton -PA -training. That's BiblicalCounseling .com

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forward slash Scranton, S -C -R -A -N -T -O -N -PA -training.

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And you can also find out more details on High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, Pennsylvania at HighPointBaptist .church,

01:16:16

HighPointBaptist .church. Feel free to email me if you are unable to write down any of that information in time.

01:16:24

My email address is ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Please join me

01:16:29

Friday and Saturday, August 28th and 29th at the High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania for the

01:16:37

ACBC Conference on the Basics of Biblical Counseling. And folks, if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to IronTripandZionRadio .com,

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click support, then click click to donate now. Also, folks, if you are not a member of a local

01:18:43

Bible -believing church, you need help finding one no matter where you live in the world. I may be able to help you because I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet earth.

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I may be able to help you find a church. I just responded to a listener who has a daughter in the

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Denver, Colorado area to whom I gave several options for good solid

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Bible -believing reformed churches in that area within a half hour drive. No matter where you live,

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I may be able to help you, so please send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

01:19:19

ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest

01:19:25

Dick Guido on church versus state question mark at ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

01:19:31

ChrisArnson at gmail .com and as always give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:19:37

USA. Dick, did you have any other further developments that have occurred that should be of great concern to the church at large that we should be keeping an eye on, that we should be prayerfully seeking biblical response to, whether it be compliance to these laws or biblically lawful disobedience?

01:20:04

Oh, yes I did, Chris. If I may, let me briefly go through three very important cases that have recently been decided by the

01:20:15

United States Supreme Court. They are not specifically in the context of the coronavirus, but they are cases which very much do have the potential of affecting the churches.

01:20:27

The first case was decided on June 8th and it's called Bostock versus Clayton County, Georgia, and there the

01:20:36

Supreme Court decided that the provisions of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which outlaw employment discrimination on the basis of sex, now also outlaw employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and general preference.

01:20:57

And by doing that, by including sexual orientation and gender preference within the protections of the

01:21:04

Civil Rights Act, the court has dramatically expanded the reach of the homosexual agenda to our businesses, schools, and churches.

01:21:14

And I think we will be feeling the effects of that decision for many years to come. The second case is called

01:21:25

Our Lady of Guadalupe versus Morrissey Barrow. That was decided on July 8th by the

01:21:33

United States Supreme Court. And there the question was a confrontation between the

01:21:43

Civil Rights Act and the ability of churches to hire and fire employees based upon religious beliefs.

01:21:54

And in that case, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of religious beliefs.

01:22:01

It effectively decided that teachers in Christian schools who were hired under employment contracts that obligated them to support and project the

01:22:18

Christian faith, the Roman Catholic faith, were entitled to protection as if they were ministers.

01:22:25

And so they could not be attacked or they could not be fired on the basis of anti -discrimination laws.

01:22:40

They were protected by what they called the ministerial exception. Now, it all sounds pretty technical and pretty hard to grasp.

01:22:53

But if you put those two cases together, if you put Bostock and Guadalupe together, you have a recipe,

01:23:02

I think, for a very serious collision between the churches and the state in terms of recognition of gay rights.

01:23:14

Let me give you, this is the kind of scenario that I thought of. You have a church, for example, that hires

01:23:21

Robert as an assistant pastor. And one day, one

01:23:27

Lord's Day, Robert comes into the church but wants to be called Roberta. And he says to you that he now identifies as a woman.

01:23:38

And he wants to, in effect, to develop a feminized version of the scriptures in his sermons.

01:23:50

And as a woman with whom he identifies, he gets fired because that's not in accord with the church's position.

01:24:00

He then sues the church. He sues them under Bostock, which prohibits him being fired for sexual orientation.

01:24:10

The church comes back under Guadalupe and says, ah, Guadalupe says that I have complete discretion to hire and fire ministers according to the rights of Christian belief.

01:24:25

Who wins in that case? And I think that that case is going to be coming up.

01:24:31

I wouldn't be surprised if the homosexual agenda is already dreaming up a case that would test those issues.

01:24:40

The final case that I want to very quickly address is an abortion case.

01:24:47

It's called June Medical Services v. Russo. When Roe v.

01:24:53

Wade was decided in 1973, the decision was that women have a constitutionally protected right under the 14th

01:25:04

Amendment to abort early -stage pregnancies. And you'll remember that Roe v.

01:25:09

Wade adopted the trimester approach in evaluating at what point the women's rights or the state's rights prevailed in the pregnancy decision.

01:25:21

In 1992, because of scientific advances in which it became clear that medicine had the right to safely deliver children at very early stages of pregnancy, the

01:25:39

Supreme Court decided Planned Parenthood v. Casey. And that ruling basically upheld

01:25:46

Roe's basic ruling that there is a constitutionally right to terminate a pregnancy, but they rejected the rigid trimester approach.

01:25:57

And they said that basically what the state could not do was impose an undue burden on a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy.

01:26:08

So that was the issue in the case of June Medical Services v. Russo. What Louisiana did was to pass a statute that required abortion doctors to have local admission privileges at hospitals within 30 miles of their clinics.

01:26:28

And failure to do that was punishable by a fine or a loss of license and civil liability.

01:26:34

And in fact, it would have put out of business many of the abortion providers in Louisiana, in fact, almost all of them.

01:26:44

The Supreme Court decided with the abortion providers. It basically said that that kind of a law imposed an undue burden on the women's of Louisiana's right to obtain an abortion.

01:27:04

And let me quickly close here with the one thing that I want to emphasize in the case was

01:27:10

Justice Clarence Thomas' opinion in dissent to that decision where he went after Roe v.

01:27:18

Wade. And in effect, he went after Planned Parenthood v. Casey. Just listen to what he said.

01:27:25

Roe is grievously wrong for many reasons. But the most important is that its core holding that the

01:27:32

Constitution protects a woman's right to abort her own child finds no support in the text of the 14th

01:27:41

Amendment. The idea that the framers of the 14th Amendment understood the due process clause to protect a right to abortion is farcical.

01:27:51

In 1868, when the 14th Amendment was ratified, a majority of the states and numerous territory had laws on the books that limited and in some cases prohibited abortion.

01:28:04

It would no doubt shock the public at that time to learn that one of the new constitutional amendments, that is the 14th

01:28:15

Amendment, contained hidden within it a right to abortion.

01:28:21

The fact that it took this court over a century to find that right, all but proves that it was more than hidden.

01:28:30

It was simply not there. And so that is, that's the case of doing medical services versus Rousseau in the abortion context.

01:28:42

So, so, number me, don't let me take up too much time. Those are the three cases I wanted to cover. Well, I'm assuming you believe that every single

01:28:52

Christian, every single pastor and elder and office bearer in the true

01:28:58

Church of Jesus Christ should never cave in to what any government tries to impose upon us in regard to hiring those who are unrepentant in their wickedness and their rebellion against Christ and his word, such as homosexuals and so -called transgendered folks.

01:29:20

We should never cave in into perhaps offering counseling to pregnant women that would give them an option to murder their unborn children as something that they have a freedom and right to do, which is possibly the next step in the government's restrictions upon how churches teach and counsel people.

01:29:49

I'm assuming that you would say that we would rather become a parking lot and cease to exist as a congregation than obey such abomination for laws.

01:30:03

Let me go back to the spectrum that I think is important in evaluating these kinds of issues.

01:30:10

That is the spectrum between Romans 13, 1, where we were obligated to obey the civil magistrate, and to Acts 5, 29, when we must obey

01:30:20

God rather than men. I would say those cases that you have put to me in that question come much closer to the

01:30:33

Acts 5, 29, if not being there, than they do to Romans 13, 1.

01:30:39

Those are the kinds of cases where, according to the spectrum that I believe is biblical, bids us to disobey the civil magistrate and to obey what

01:30:50

God commands us. Okay, well, we have some questions from listeners here.

01:30:55

We have John in New York, New York. There doesn't seem to be a civil liberty objection to evacuations when hurricanes approach, yet an evacuation order by default requires churches to close.

01:31:11

Since the coronavirus pandemic is also a natural disaster, isn't it appropriate for the civil magistrate to order closings of public establishments under the same safety precautions that are used for other natural disasters?

01:31:27

Well, I think that gets at the big issue that has come up so many times in the litigation that has happened with regard to restrictions on the churches.

01:31:40

I believe the fundamental understanding of most courts is that the civil magistrate does have the legitimate power under the state police power to see to the health and welfare of the public in terms, including those who are

01:32:01

Christians and in attendance upon worship. The problem arises is when they don't treat the churches in the same way that they do other aspects of society.

01:32:14

We've seen a number of cases where, for example, bowling alleys and movies and in some cases restaurants, even abortion clinics are allowed to remain open while there are placed great restrictions upon the ability of the churches to gather.

01:32:36

And I think that's what John was getting at in this question. Well, obviously there is, well, maybe that's not obvious to everybody, including

01:32:47

John, but there is a difference between something that is nearly certain will cause in great damage and death like a hurricane and something that's debatable amongst even so -called experts in medicine on the severity of the coronavirus and the ease of spread and so on.

01:33:12

So I think that there is a difference between those things. And John has another question that I, from the get -go,

01:33:20

I'm not certain I agree with him on, but he says, it is clear from the data that we have seen around the world that wearing a mask significantly reduces the spread of COVID -19.

01:33:32

Well, I constantly see medical experts disagreeing on that, even to this day. But having said that,

01:33:40

John continues. With this in mind, do you feel that refusing to wear a mask in public during this outbreak is a selfish act that directly violates the biblical principle of loving your neighbor and what

01:33:53

Paul gives us in Philippians 2, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

01:34:05

Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

01:34:10

Well, there are places where the law is not even requiring that everywhere in public we wear a mask, walking around the streets of our community and so on.

01:34:23

But anyway, how do you respond to what John is saying? Well, I think it's a, his question is a species of a broader question of prudence.

01:34:36

I think the churches have to exercise when they decide what they should be doing in response to the pandemic vis -a -vis the outside world.

01:34:51

We all know that there have been instances where people in the outside world, neighbors and so forth, make great umbrage at the fact that there are those who within the

01:35:05

Christian community feel that notwithstanding what the civil magistrate has said, they have the right to assemble for worship and thereby risk infection not only to themselves, but to those around them.

01:35:23

And I think wearing a face mask is a species of that question.

01:35:29

This is what one commentator said on this and on those views that you have a right to assemble in church, you must assemble in church worship despite what the civil magistrate says.

01:35:46

I am astonished by how many people think a deadly pandemic is the right time to foment the spirit of rebellion and pick a fight with the government over what many will inevitably see as our right to infect others.

01:36:01

That's what it looks like to our neighbors. They do not see this as a testimony of our unshakable faith, but as the evidence of countless unconcerns for their lives and for the lives of the police, grocery workers, mailmen, health workers, and garbage men with whom we all interact.

01:36:23

So the question of the mask is I think is one of prudence in addressing both the health risk and the church's witness to the outside world.

01:36:35

And I would decidedly come down on the favor of wearing the mask. Even when it's not required?

01:36:41

Like you're saying that we are selfish if we are walking around the streets of our community without a mask, even though the government's not requiring us to?

01:36:51

Well, again, I think it's a matter of individual conscience and individual prudence.

01:36:58

So we had in the church in Alabama a question as to whether it was the appropriate thing not to require people to wear a mask, which the church doesn't in worship.

01:37:13

But there are social distancing and the other many health precautions that we have taken.

01:37:20

And in that case, we have sought to, as best we can, to take into account the scruples of those who feel that they would have trouble coming if other people if they wear a mask and other people didn't.

01:37:35

So I go back to the point that I think it's a matter of Christian prudence. And I was going to say something that completely flew out of my head.

01:37:48

Oh, what I was going to say is, isn't there, though, a time when you have to say,

01:37:58

OK, enough is enough? Like, for instance, if you think it is lawful for a governor to prevent or prohibit the opening of a church for public gatherings again, because we don't know how long this freedom that we have again to gather publicly is going to be remain is going to remain intact.

01:38:21

It could be taken away again, and we could have further prohibitions to refrain from public gathering.

01:38:29

I mean, who knows what the future brings that you may have governments here in the

01:38:37

United States, locally and federal, who are saying, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do all of your worship via the

01:38:49

Internet. Public gatherings are no longer considered safe, and therefore you are not going to be able to assemble publicly in the same building for worship as you once did, and therefore you're not going to be having the ordinances, and you're not going to be joining together in song, etc.

01:39:12

I mean, this is not something that's a fairy tale. It could possibly occur. Aren't we to eventually say,

01:39:19

OK, this is where the line is crossed. We are not going to, in perpetuity, obey such a rule.

01:39:26

I think, Chris, that's exactly what I'm saying, that there is a point where one, as a

01:39:32

Christian, has to evaluate the situation that he finds himself on the spectrum that I outlined to you.

01:39:41

I think it's certainly possible to conceive of the kinds of drastic and draconian situations that you outlined to me and to, on that basis, speculate as to what we might do.

01:39:57

I just prefer for myself to look at what's actually happened in this country right now with 1 .8

01:40:07

million people infected with coronavirus and more than 142 ,000 having died because of the coronavirus.

01:40:15

And I compare that to what the civil magistrate has done vis -à -vis the churches to deal with it, which

01:40:22

I find to be perfectly reasonable, limited in duration and limited in extent.

01:40:29

And therefore, if it takes wearing a mask under those provisions, I will go along with it.

01:40:36

I think that's an appropriate expression of the civil liberty that I have as a

01:40:41

Christian, so as not to offend others within the community, even though I might disagree with wearing a mask personally.

01:40:50

That's why I do think that when churches have to evaluate these situations, it's absolutely key that those who are making those decisions are informed by the whole counsel of God that they have in what we call in the

01:41:08

Presbyterian circle the plurality of elders, so that it's not a one -man show, so that they can have differing views brought to bear on this.

01:41:19

I'm not here to say that my view is, you know, my way or the highway, but I am here to say that I think the

01:41:27

Scriptures deal with these kinds of questions and do so in a way that establishes the spectrum and calls for a maximum of prudence by Christian decision makers, taking into account the whole counsel of God.

01:41:44

And John of New York, New York has one final question. How do you get your cat to wear a mask? I'm assuming he was joking about that, but thanks for...

01:41:56

Starbuck is right here on my desk. Did you say your cat is on your desk? Starbuck is my cat is on my desk.

01:42:03

And is he wearing a mask? You know, he took it off.

01:42:11

He took it off? We're going to our final break right now, and if you'd like to join us, this is your last opportunity.

01:42:20

Send in your email immediately to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:42:26

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dick Guido and the remainder of part two of Church versus State, question mark.

01:42:32

Don't go away. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sheriff and Zion Radio here.

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the

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And we are now back with our final six minutes or so with our guest today,

01:54:08

Dick Guido, and we have been discussing church versus state, question mark.

01:54:14

And we do have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, Harrison, who says, should we not be very, very distrusting and leery over so -called health experts that are being paraded on the media day after day, who also, as scientists would claim in agreement with the leftists, that babies, even at nine months in development, are not human beings, that are protected from being murdered, and that if somebody who is male biologically chooses to identify as a woman, they should be regarded truly as a woman, and vice versa.

01:54:59

Well, I would say it this way, Chris. I don't think I'm a Pollyanna who is unaware of the problems that we are seeing with regard to the coronavirus and the advice that we are getting from health experts, the conflicts that exist, the self -interest that exists.

01:55:20

I only can say that they are a part of the civil magistrate that our

01:55:28

God has ordained for the good of his people, and that when we look at what they say,

01:55:38

Christians are bidden to take that with a grain of salt, cum grano salis.

01:55:45

And therefore, evaluate and not take automatically at full value what they have said in terms of how we as Christians are going to reply to the act with regards to the virus.

01:56:02

Well, oh, by the way, I forgot to mention, John in New York, New York, if you are a first -time questioner,

01:56:07

I can't recall if you've ever sent in a question before, you have won a free

01:56:13

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ship that Bible out to you. I'd like you to have about two minutes now, two and a half minutes, to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:56:30

Let me step back, Chris, and say that apart from the civil magistrate and litigation and the churches and all the rest, that the world of today, of July 22nd, is a very different world than it was five months ago.

01:56:51

We have entered into a new normal where even baseball games are going to be played in empty stadiums.

01:56:57

That should prompt us to think about the fact that the most important fact of our time is something that can't even be seen.

01:57:04

It is a virus. It's one one -thousandth the size of a human hair. It should prompt us to think about the reality of the unseen, and that there is a truth that transcends that which we can see and touch.

01:57:19

And that causes us to reflect upon the God who is the author of truth, who came down to us as a man, the

01:57:26

Lord Jesus Christ, in a stable at Bethlehem, and died for us on a cross in Jerusalem.

01:57:33

He has ascended to the right hand of God, and for God's people, that makes all the difference, notwithstanding a pandemic.

01:57:42

The 91st Psalm says this, He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the

01:57:49

Almighty. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress.

01:57:55

My God, in Him will I trust. Surely He shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler and from the noisome pestilence.

01:58:05

Thou shalt not be afraid for the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor for the destruction that watcheth at waste at noon day.

01:58:15

So those are my concluding thoughts. Chris, I think we need to step back as Christians and recognize what a sovereign and what a loving

01:58:27

God we have, despite all the things that are going on around us. Amen. And folks, please remember the two churches that are connected with our guest today,

01:58:38

Dick Guido, Providence Presbyterian Church in Alabama, and also the

01:58:45

Shiloh Presbyterian Church in Raleigh, North Carolina, can be found at these websites.

01:58:51

First of all, we have Providence Presbyterian Hunts... I'm sorry.

01:58:56

We have ProvidenceHuntsville .com, ProvidenceHuntsville .com,

01:59:02

for Providence Presbyterian Church, Huntsville, Alabama, and also the Shiloh Presbyterian Church in Raleigh, North Carolina, at ShilohOPC .org,

01:59:14

that's S -H -I -L -O -H -O -P -C .org. And please, folks, if you can make it a point to try to be with me in Scranton, Pennsylvania, August 28th and 29th, for the

01:59:25

Basics of Biblical Counseling Conference, go to BiblicalCounseling .com forward slash

01:59:30

Scranton -PA -Training. That's BiblicalCounseling .com forward slash

01:59:35

Scranton, C -R -A -N -T -O -N -PA -Training. Thank you everybody who listened today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater