Antinomianism (w/ The Pactum) | Theocast

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What is antinomianism? Are John and I here at Theocasts antinomian?

00:06

What about the law and the Christian life? Does the law have a place in the life of the believer?

00:13

What about the difference between lordship, salvation and antinomianism? Is it one or the other?

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Recently, John and I had an opportunity to have a conversation about all of these things, the uses of the law and union with Christ and many other good topics with our friends over at the

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Pactum, Pat Avendroth and Mike Grimes. We hope this episode is clarifying for you and we hope it encourages you in your

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Christian life. Stay tuned. If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word. It's called pietism.

00:42

You ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy? That you wake up worrying about how well you're gonna perform instead of thinking about what

00:52

Christ has done for you. It's dread versus joy, really. That's pietism. Pietism causes

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Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done but what they're doing.

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And we have a little book for you. It's free. We want you to download it. And we're gonna explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism.

01:13

Reform theology, really. How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ and when

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Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like? You can download it on our website.

01:24

Just go to theocast .org. The great promoter and defender of the faith,

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Martyn Lloyd -Jones said that if you're not misunderstood and slanderously accused of antinomianism, it's because you don't believe the gospel truly and you don't preach it truly.

01:49

Hello and welcome to The Pactum. I'm Mike Grimes. I'm here with Pat Ebendroth. And yes, today on our episode, we are going to be discussing antinomianism.

01:58

Mike, if antinomianism is bad and we think that it is, why in the world did Lloyd -Jones say such a thing?

02:05

Well, I'll tell you what. We've got a couple of guests with us today on our episode to help us with that answer and many, many more.

02:13

Very good. One of them is the senior pastor of Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee. The other is the lead pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

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And together, they are Theocast. Hello, John Moffitt and Justin Perdue and welcome to The Pactum.

02:31

That might be the best intro of a podcast I've ever heard. This is very polished, very professional.

02:36

We are privileged to be a part of this. That was amazing. It was so good. Well, I'm just glad you guys both have your makeup on.

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We do audio only. Yeah. These guys are like Hollywood elite over there with their makeup and stuff.

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Cool looking studio and everything. And listen, we've got to get into the studio early to get these, you know, these padded pat -downs and the sweat brow and all that kind of stuff.

02:56

It takes some time. You've been at it for hours. Got that lifetime membership at the tanning salon. You know, it's just how it goes.

03:03

Yeah, it's called a lawnmower. Well, we are thankful for you and we're thankful for the friendship that we have.

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We've crossed paths over the years and there really is a like -mindedness. And so it's fun to have you officially on as guests to talk about a subject we, can we all agree we don't like antinomianism?

03:22

Yes, we agree. Okay. Yes, we can agree. Yes, we agree. Well, you know, where two or three are gathered.

03:29

So there is that. So Justin, how about if we start with you and how about giving us the elevator pitch definition of what antinomianism, what is it?

03:42

Breaking down the word, it is anti -namas. It's against the law. And in particular, what this means for Christians is that now that we are in Christ, that we have been saved by him, justified on account of the work that he's done for us, the law no longer has a place in the

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Christian's life. And in particular, when people talk about the law, they're meaning the moral law of God, the commands that the

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Lord gives us for righteousness, what he requires for holiness. Well, this is no longer a thing, says the antinomian in the life of the

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Christian because we're not under the law anymore, we are under grace. That's the quick 30 second answer.

04:25

So I think that's pretty good. That's pretty good. So I think you pretty much made it.

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We're at ground level now and we're gonna go back up on the elevator. So John, you wanna chime in?

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Anything that Justin got wrong? Please correct me, John. Anything you need to elaborate on there as we go back up to the 13th floor because we think 13 is a good number and every building should have a 13th floor.

04:48

So go for it, John. Yeah, I think that the antinomianism is what we would probably call really a strong and good emphasis on the gospel of grace, like God's grace in our life.

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It frees us from the obligation of obedience for salvation. And we're like, amen to that.

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We love that part. But the confusion is that then that's carried over assuming that God's desire for us is to be a part of his family and reflect his family and that we are freed from obedience to the law for salvation.

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But now, because we're a part of the family, we get to share the good news of God's grace and his holiness to the world.

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And that requires of us obedience to not live like we used to live and to pursue as much as we can in repentance and faith, obedience.

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And antinomians would say that God's grace, it does not require that, that that's not part of our life.

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And that's where I love my brothers who wanna emphasize the gospel and grace, because it's true.

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And that part of their faith, I wholeheartedly agree with them on, but that then kind of ignores,

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I would say, the latter half of the New Testament, where it does give us the wonders and the glories of, and people don't like this word, but partnering with God in the mission of sharing the gospel.

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He calls us to do that. And that's part of our obedience. So why do you think it's important that we are accused of being antinomian?

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What do you think Lloyd -Jones is getting at? Why would we welcome being accused of being antinomian, even though we don't want to actually be antinomian?

06:27

Yeah. Yeah, for a long time, it used to bother me. And now it doesn't so much, because when

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I hear someone describe what they're accusing me of, I'm like, well, I actually agree with you on that one, because when it comes to my faith in the gospel,

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I am an antinomian. Not saved by works, lest anyone should boast. That part we can all really, and I feel like for so long in the

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Christendom and modern Christendom, there's asterisks to our faith. It's like, yeah, yeah, it's faith alone, but it's like, no, it's always faith alone.

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Yeah, now we want to talk about the obligations of the believer once they're, the fruit of our salvation.

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Let's talk about that. So I am fine with being called an antinomian, even thinking historically and biblically, because Paul was called that.

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I mean, everybody's concern with Paul is that he was against Moses. And even people's concerns with Jesus were that he was somehow against the law of Moses.

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And that, of course, was not the case for Christ. That was not the case for Paul. And even thinking historically, the reformers were charged with this.

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The Merrow men from the 18th century in the Church of Scotland were called antinomian, and they were not.

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And the reason that these figures, let's leave Jesus and Paul out of it for a minute, but even historically speaking, the reason these figures were often referred to as antinomian is because of the way that they preached the gospel in a way that was unqualified.

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They offered Jesus to sinners freely, and they offered Jesus to sinners as an entire and complete savior who has done everything necessary to save the worst of us, right?

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And it's Jesus for all of salvation. And that has always made people nervous. Every holiness movement in the history of the church has balked at that proclamation.

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You can't tell people that everything is finished, that everything is done, and that all they do is receive it with an open hand, or people are not gonna care enough about obedience and holiness.

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That's always the objection. I don't wanna get too far down the road, but I agree with John. That unqualified asterisk -less, asterisk -less, it's hard to say, presentation of the gospel.

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There is no yeah, but. It is Jesus as your whole and only right. So that's why, absolutely.

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So that's really what we mean when we say sola fide, right? Justification by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

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And it should beg the question. It should beg the Roman six question, which is what Lloyd -Jones is getting at.

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If it doesn't beg the question, you're not clear enough. People should be saying, excuse me, are you suggesting that we, therefore, continue in sin and just sin it up?

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So, Justin, is it true that you're writing up, you have a writing project right now that addresses some of these things around chapter six?

09:19

Well, antinomianism is illegitimate. What you just said is true. That I am working on a writing project on Roman six.

09:26

Okay, well, well played. So yeah, but if I can, briefly, yeah, what you just said is perfect because Paul anticipates the objection to the gospel, the age -old objection that I was just referring to.

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If you're not getting people at one level, now, we're gonna get to the law in the life of the

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Christian and how we live. We're gonna get there. But if the preaching of the good news does not prompt people to be, at least some who hear you preach, so you're just saying we can sin?

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If that is not a question that arises in the minds of your listeners, you're probably not ripping it on the good news the way that you should.

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And so Paul anticipates that objection and there's ways that he responds to that objection that I would love to geek out about whenever you tell me it's appropriate,

10:09

Pat. I will happily do it. Well, you know what, maybe we'll geek out when the book comes out and we'll just do an episode on that.

10:19

But it makes a lot of sense what you're saying, Justin, because Paul has already said, before he gets to Roman six, he's said things like, in Romans four or five,

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God justifies the ungodly. Right. If that's true, then maybe we can stay ungodly.

10:35

No, that's not what he means, but he does want you to be clear on the fact that it is all of Christ's work, not ours.

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So I've heard, just yesterday before, in preparation for this, I Googled theocast and antinomianism, an antinomian.

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And I highly recommend it to all Pacton listeners because it's a lot of fun. I've actually never done that.

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You can see what Lloyd -Jones meant by slanderous accusations that are unfounded. So, when

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I did, I'm sure it was, yeah, yeah. You get to have some fun and give it a go. We won't put the link in the show notes, but one video that showed up had a pastor rather passionately preaching.

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And basically it was, since you guys give pushback to the Lordship Salvation model, because you do that, therefore you are antinomian.

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And so I would like to hear the two of you talk about that, give some pushback. What is the

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Lordship Salvation model? Are those, how about this? Are those the two options? You're either Lordship Salvation or you're antinomian.

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How about that? Yeah. Yeah, I don't, it's hard because when you get pushed into one of those categories and neither one of them are biblical, obviously.

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And then the hard part, Pat and Mike, is that I feel like the definition of Lordship keeps changing.

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Because sometimes when people describe it, I'm like, well, I don't agree with that. Jesus is Lord. Mike Grimes and Pat Abendorf, they agree to that, right?

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He most certainly is. Yeah, Jesus is Lord, so we got that figured out. And He's a wondrous

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Lord, and a Lord that we love to serve. And we feel that, you know, as Peter, 1

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Peter 5 says, we submit humbly under the mighty hand of God, right? All of that, we want that to be true.

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We think that our lives should be a living sacrifice for the King, amen. And that when we come to Christ, we need to lay our entire life down for His use, where we are a drink offering poured out for Him.

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So if that's Lordship to you, we're like, dude, stamp me, approve me. But unfortunately, that's not necessarily how it's always been historically represented.

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So if we're gonna talk about the Lordship issue and the one who really uses that word historically, when

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John MacArthur wrote those books, and we've done episodes on this, but when he wrote those books, it was really a confusion against Zayn Hodges, which was teaching antinomianism, and a lot of the criticisms that John had against Zayn, we would too, because Zayn would think he'd gone too far.

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Right. Yes. But the responses we felt like were not really staying in line with Scripture, specifically in the area of the order of salvation, like how one comes to faith in the gospel.

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And so what we're trying to push back on is saying that to repent of your sin, to turn away from your sin, to stop sinning, and then believe the gospel is not the way in which

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Lordship in Scripture works. The way in which we would say, biblically and historically, and really the

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Reformed faith fought for this, and we would even encourage you to read Dr.

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Ferguson's book on the Merriman, which is really an older debate about the same issue. The whole Christ. It's that.

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The whole Christ. The whole Christ, yep. And there's a new version of it. Well, it's not a new version of that book, but there's another book that is called

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Offering and Embracing Christ, which is the Mero theology of John Cahoon. And it's very good.

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Yes. By John Beagle. It's fantastic. Yeah, but to put a cap on this, we believe that the gospel preached to the believer, when the

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Holy Spirit comes, He regenerates the heart, plants faith in us, and that faith then leads to repentance. So you can say to someone, repent and believe, because that becomes the fruit of the gospel.

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That becomes the fruit of our faith, versus requiring faith and repentance before someone is actually saved.

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So if I can briefly, sorry, Pat. Yep. Just ever so quickly, Justin, especially if you make repentance some kind of change of behavior.

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Correct. That's right. Right? So especially if you're defining it that way, you don't clean up your life and repent in that sense, and then

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God saves you, because that would be a form of works, prerequisite. To define repentance. Yep, go ahead,

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Justin. This is not exactly what I was gonna say, but I'm gonna say it now, because you brought it up. I think we need to accurately define repentance. And repentance is, it's a change of mind, but it's also a turning.

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And the turning emphasis typically that's made in the church today is a turning from sin.

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And I think we ought to rightly emphasize the turning to Christ, casting ourselves on Him.

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That's maybe another podcast for another day on repentance. But I think on the lordship salvation issue, if I were to get right at the heart of it,

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I do think that it tends to collapse the law in the gospel. But I think that also where there's some confusion, especially this is,

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I think, more apparent in the earlier editions of the Gospel According to Jesus by John MacArthur, there's a redefinition of faith.

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And so if I can, the reformed through history, I can say that on here, right, Pat? The reformed through history.

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Yeah. Have agreed that where there is saving faith, there will be repentance.

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Where there is saving faith, there will be obedience. Where there is saving faith, there will be a desire to obey.

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But those things are not a part of faith. And what was happening, and it continues to happen in the lordship camp, the lordship salvation advocates, they will, in some way or another, weave repentance, obedience, and a desire to obey into the definition of what saving faith is.

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And - Even not just a desire to obey, but even obedience and love, right? You have to have affections and love.

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And those things are not faith. I mean, federal vision would - That distinction really does matter because if you start to collapse categories, you're giving it away.

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You're giving it all away. So then, Justin, to be clear, faith is what in the reformed tradition.

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From a biblical perspective, how do we define faith if it doesn't include love? Because that's law. If it doesn't include obedience, even though we like obedience, what is faith?

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If somebody says, tell me what faith is, not in the lordship kind of world of allegiance, but what's the definition?

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I mean, I'll start with the definition that's in our own confession, in chapter 14, paragraph two. It is to -

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The principal acts of saving faith, says the confession, center on Jesus alone, accepting, receiving, and resting on him for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of the covenant of grace.

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Now, we could also talk about some of the other paradigms that have been used through history, knowledge, assent, trust, et cetera.

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Those things are obviously legitimate. We believe certain things about Jesus are true. We are trusting him that what he did for the redemption of mankind, he did for me.

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Those kinds of things, there's a personal component of that. But that accepting, receiving, and resting on Christ alone for the entirety of my salvation,

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I think is a great place to start in defining saving faith. Super, super.

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And that makes a huge difference because it's not enough to say sola fide if faith somehow includes some kind of obedience in law.

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No, it's resting, it's trusting. It's depending upon the work of another. That is why, again,

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Romans 4, 5 says, he justifies the ungodly by faith.

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So it's crucial. So maybe just to kind of circle back to all of this. So the lordship perspective is not the historic reformed faith because somehow it's faith and works that you justified.

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The supposed opposite, or the only other alternative of this is antinomianism. And you can write however you want to live.

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God's law doesn't matter. What's a better alternative? What's the right alternative?

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What's the biblical alternative to that? Yeah, that's good.

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Well, I think adding to the idea of rest, when people hear the, when we say this, when the

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Paxman says it, when anybody in their forum says rest and it's efficiency of Christ, what they think we're saying is let go and let

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God, and there's nothing for you to do. When we're thinking about our relationship to God, as far as son and father, for a second,

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Peter's like, everything that you've ever needed has been granted to you by his divine power. Like for life in godliness and for your glorification.

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So when you're thinking about picking up a tool to add to the building of this relationship is like set it down and rest in the reality that it's all been accomplished.

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It is finished. That's the resting part we're talking about. But that doesn't mean that there isn't work for us to do because what does

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Jesus say? Come to me and I will give you rest for my yoke is easy, my burden is light. There is work for us to do.

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Excellent point, excellent. But it is not the work of salvation. That's been given to us. It's the work of proclamation.

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It's the work of sharing love, right? We love because he first loved us. So this is where we kick back and say the other option isn't antinomianism.

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The other option is to then understand the work of the kingdom in light of the king, right?

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He rescued us, he saves us, he says you've been set free. Rest in my sufficiency and now proclaim the truth to others.

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He uses things like salt, light, right? A light of kingdom, a sweet aroma, ambassador.

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Those are the kind of the languages that he uses. So what's so hard for people is that Justin in the Reformed and Pact and we all believe that God absolutely calls us to obey and wants us to obey and dare

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I say needs us to obey for the sake of proclaiming the good news around the world and for building up the body of Christ but does not need your good works for your salvation or sanctification.

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And therefore you can rest there and work here. That's good, that's super good.

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That probably leads us, it's a great setup to talk about the three uses of the law. Because I think

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Theocast, the Pactum, others, we are pro -law, we're not anti -law, we're not antinomian.

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We actually are very much pro -law. Talk about why that is and lead us into the discussion.

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So we are not only pro -law, we are First Timothy 1 .8 people. We have maintained that the law is good provided that one uses it lawfully.

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So then the question is how do you use the law lawfully? And those three uses historically defined are very, very helpful when it comes to this.

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So you are asking what's the better way forward, Pat? My answer is two pronged. One is union with Christ, the other is three uses of the law.

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And so we'll just do the one before the other, I suppose. So the three uses historically defined. Now there might be some differences in number one and two depending on which tradition you find yourself in, but at least for our purposes today, the first and greatest use of the law, this is

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Romans three, Romans five, Romans seven, Galatians three stuff. It is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ who kept the law for us.

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So shows us the depth of our corruption, shows us that our sin is sinful beyond measure.

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Through the law comes knowledge of sin. The law was given because of transgression until Christ would come, right?

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So it drives us to him who is the law keeper, who is our savior. Second use of the law.

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Go ahead. And that works for believers too, right? First use. So every Sunday, Pat, when

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I preach the gospel, I'm preaching the gospel first. I mean, I'm preaching the law, excuse me, when

22:07

I'm preaching. I am preaching the law first use certainly to any unbelievers who are present. I wanna crush self -righteousness.

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I wanna crush any hope that you would have in your own steam and your own merit. But I'm also doing that for the sake of the believers in the room too, lest we get it twisted that we're actually doing this thing.

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That now that we're born again, that somehow we can keep the law adequately to please God on our own merit.

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We cannot. And so why is the first use of the law important for the Christian? Well, it continues to humble us. It continues to show us how much we need

22:38

Jesus. It continues to drive us anew to the foot of the cross and to cast ourselves on Christ who kept the law in our place.

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That's a good thing for the believer. The second use just to kind of tee us up there is more broad, civil.

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It's to restrain our corruption. And so God prohibits evil. He encourages good in the law.

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Pretty simple, applies to all people. Third use of the law is really, really important for this conversation because historically speaking to be antinomian is to deny the third use of the law.

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And the third use of the law is to guide our living in Christ Jesus. So in Christ, by the power of Christ spirit at work in us, we seek to conform our lives to the law because it's good and because we now delight in it in our inner being.

23:24

And so that is what we all do. And so that kind of preaching of the law, if I can, I know I'm talking for a while, just tell me to shut up,

23:29

Pat, if I need to. That kind of preaching of the, okay, great. So two thoughts here. In a general sense, the third use of the law is preached in a way that is not threatening or condemning because the law no longer threatens or condemns the

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Christian as it comes to our standing before God. So it's much more of a, hey, beloved, this is clearly good.

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Let's live this way. That's the general tone and tenor of third use preaching. And I would argue that even when the apostles warn strongly, they don't call the salvation of believers into question.

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First Corinthians six is the greatest example of this. So when you want to use the law kind of in a first, third use sort of way for the believer, think about first Corinthians six in the aftermath of chapter five where there's great immorality going on in the church.

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This man should have been removed from among you, but you're boasting, thinking this is an expression of Christian freedom. You should have put him out.

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Then you're suing each other. You're taking each other to court. This is a tire fire. This is really bad. Paul then says, have

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I not said to you that people who practice all these things will not inherit the kingdom of God? Strong statement.

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But then what does he say? Such were some of you, but you've been sanctified.

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You've been washed. You've been cleansed. You've been justified in Christ. What's he saying? He's saying, guys, why would you do things for which the wrath of God is coming?

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One. Two, you used to be that. You're not that anymore. Live like who you are now.

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That's the way the apostles preached and wrote, and that's how we should communicate the law to our people too.

25:00

Put off, put on. Yeah. Super. Hey guys, real quick. Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

25:08

So where do you go? How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources? We have started something called the

25:15

Theocast Community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like -minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

25:28

You can go check it out. The link is in the description below. For you listening to the Pactum today, we have John Moffitt and Justin Perdue, and we have them joining us.

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Team Pactum, if you will, team together with Theocast, and we're thankful for the conversation about antinomianism.

25:44

How about the fact that Jesus says, I give you a new law, and he basically says you're supposed to love your neighbor.

25:50

Is that really new? Yeah.

25:56

Go ahead. In what sense is that new? And it relates to the third use of the law. In what sense is it new that he says you're supposed to love your neighbor?

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Wasn't that old? Wasn't that what the law always said? Yeah, but it was love your neighbor and live.

26:11

Okay. Yes, yes. It was that before, right? It was that before.

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In other words, your loving of your neighbor was for the obligation of your righteousness, which is, when he even talks about the

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Good Samaritan, he's trying to crush them with that. Unless you can live like that, then you shouldn't even try, because they all walked away really frustrated by it, because they even asked him, well, who is my neighbor?

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That's right, who is my neighbor? Jesus, he crushes them with love. Whereas 1 John then comes in with the gospel and says, first of all, love casts out all fear.

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And then secondly, we love because he first loved us. It's a responsive love out of the gospel versus an obligatory love, like I must be righteous, therefore

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I love. I am righteous because of Christ, therefore I love, imperfectly, but I still love, because I want to reflect the love that I've received.

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So yeah, that's why it's new. Yeah, I think it's so helpful that Justin was talking about the three uses, and some listeners might be thinking, well, that's not found in the

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Bible, I can't find it in a word search. Yeah, thank you for saying that. Yep, that's good. But at the same time, we have to create categories, because when

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Jesus says it's a new law, it's not a new law. It's the same old law, but it's new because your relationship with God is new in Christ.

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And so we do create these categories like three uses of the law, because we're trying to make sanctified sense of them, because otherwise it's just a contradiction, and we know it's not a contradiction.

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So I wish someone would have helped me with these things like we're trying to help people now at the beginning of my

27:45

Christian life, because the Bible's not alphabet soup theologically. Yeah, I mean,

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I'll step in here and say, if you don't like the way in which we use first, second, and third use of the law, I don't really care.

27:56

It doesn't matter. You can label them or describe them how you want, but you have to acknowledge that the Bible does present the law in the way in which it applies to the believer.

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In really three different categories, right? And so there is definitely, like for instance, how do you apply church discipline unless you're using

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God's law in a way that is not under the way in which it was with Moses, the

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Deuteronomic law, right? And so it's clearly being used because we're practicing church discipline.

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That's why I'm like, you can say we're antinomian, but Justin and I, in this last two years, have had to practice church discipline in ways that it grieves our heart.

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But we believe that whether you call it their use of the law or not, that there is an obligation to the believer to live holy in light of who they are, not to gain something they don't have.

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Yeah, I think you guys have done a great job making that point and putting some emphasis on the syllable because if you're truly antinomian, you wouldn't do church discipline.

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Right? It wouldn't make any sense. So I love the fact that the third use, as far as it's concerned, it's a guide into our path.

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You know, it's light for us, but it's not through our obedience to get us into the family.

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It's because we already are in the family. We're heirs in Christ. Now we want to do the right thing because we can, because it's good, because it leads to human flourishing.

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Yeah. In a broken world, the law is awesome. It really helps us not feel the weight of our sin.

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Because it's like, if you're sinning and you don't know that you are, and you're falling, fumbling into something, and then someone comes along and goes, do you know why your life is miserable?

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Because you keep doing this. You're like, oh, that is so helpful. That is so good to know. Well, talking about the law as a guide, too. How do

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I know what righteousness looks like? Well, I look to the law. How do I know what's good for me?

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I look to the law. How do I know what's good for my neighbor? I look to the law. How do I know what pleases the Lord?

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Because I want to please Him. I look to the law. And that's a third use paradigm as well. It is that perfect guide for our living in Christ, not for merit, but because of our status, our union with Christ.

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Because we're born again, we live this way. So I think it's probably fair to say that we want to be accused of being antinomian because people hear us preaching

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Christ alone. But we don't actually want to be antinomian in our lifestyle or in our preaching or in our theology.

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We don't want to do that at all. And in fact, we're not. Full agreement. Fair. Fair. I mean, we could talk.

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So how about resources to recommend to people when it comes to this whole matter?

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I know we've already mentioned The Whole Christ by Sinclair Ferguson. Big fans of that on the Pactum. What any other resources you're liking about this whole topic?

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Oh, we did an episode with you coming out. Well, it's already come out for you guys, but John Calhoun's book,

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I think is pretty helpful here in law and gospel. I think the book on sanctification, which does help clarify some of this, by Walter Marshall is also helpful, understanding our position in Christ leads to obedience versus sanctification being a part of our justification.

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I mean, this might not be for everybody. It's a big work, but the marrow of modern divinity with Thomas Boston's footnotes is gold.

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If for anybody that really wants to dig in and chew and kind of chip your way through a big work, that's another one.

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Yep, absolutely. Maybe do the Ferguson one first. Yeah, I agree. And that one next.

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The Ferguson one will prime you and get you ready. Yeah. Yes. Yep, the Walter Marshall one is,

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I love it because it's accessible. Even though it's puritanical in the original version, the chapters are pretty short.

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And so it's not undoable. It's pretty, in a sense, it's easy to read.

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Also, it's striking how much stress he does put on obedience. He does. There's no way, shape or form.

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He's saying obedience isn't important, but he has the categories right. And I think if I'm correct, maybe you guys can correct me.

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He's responding to being under the terrible theology of Richard Baxter. That's my understanding as well.

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That's right. Well, as we need to wrap things up here, how about giving an invitation, if you will?

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Mike will play just as I am in the background. But how about reaching out?

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How about a kind word of invitation to those who are struggling with this whole matter?

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And maybe they've been saying people like you, people like us are antinomian. I mean, what's the appeal to someone who's maybe trapped and confused regarding this whole matter?

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That's good. Well, when I think about my own children, the first thing

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I want them to know above everything else is that I love them and I'm wholly dedicated to them and to their well -being.

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Like whatever I can do, I will do. In light of that, I want, for instance, today my son was supposed to take the trash down to the street and he didn't do it.

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So I did it for him. When he gets home, I'm gonna put my arm around him and say, hey, remember I told you, don't forget to do this. And there's gonna be a moment of grace and forgiveness, but like, hey,

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I want you to remember to do this because you appreciate our relationship, right?

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What I'm not gonna say is, hey, because you didn't do this, I'm actually struggling with whether I love you or not and whether I wanna keep you in my home.

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Like I've asked you to take the trash down multiple times. This is like your most, this is probably your third or fourth offense. And we're at a moment where Mr.

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17 -year -old, I think you may not have a place here anymore. Oh, I thought he was two, I thought he was two. Yeah.

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Yeah. What the gospel tells us is that it would be absurd for me to treat my child that way.

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But at the same time, it's not absurd for me to ask him to do something that is a part of the home.

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It is part of what he should do as a family. And that when he fails, my arm is gonna come around him and remind him that this is not beneficial for him.

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It's not beneficial for our home. That is how obedience should be in our experience with the father is that we desire to do what is right.

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And when we fail, he says, confess your failure to me. God expects us to sin. This is why 1

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John says, tell him about your failure so that you can be forgiven, your conscious can be set clean, and that you could go back to doing the work of honoring him and the work of the kingdom.

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But you should never think, oh, my sin now is causing me to really question my relationship with God.

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Look, that was never started by your works and it will not be affected by your works. Yet you want to reflect him and do his work because you're a part of his family.

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Really understanding the difference between pietism and a biblical perspective of a relationship with God is what we're talking about here.

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All right, so my invitation is gonna be maybe, I wanna do something different than John. So there was a video that went kind of viral from a theologian that is relatively well known.

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And he said that the doctrine that's most missing in the church today is that of the new birth. And we would agree and disagree with him depending on how that's framed.

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I would contend that one of the most neglected doctrines in the church today is actually that of union with Christ and what that means for the

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Christian life. And so there's a better way to talk about obedience and sanctification than this kind of false dichotomy of lordship salvation or antinomianism.

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And Paul, in responding to that objection at the beginning of Romans six, it's interesting what he says and what he doesn't say.

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When that objection is raised, should we just sin now that grace may abound? He says, by no means, he's indignant over that idea.

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But he does not say, by no means, consider what the law says. He doesn't say, by no means, if you are a legitimate

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Christian and would prove yourself to be legitimate and not a faker, here's how you'll live. He says, by no means, we have been united to the

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Savior. We've been baptized into Christ. We have been justified from sin's guilt.

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We now consider ourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ. We've been set free from sin's dominion and have now become obedient from the heart.

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Then the kind of a different Romans road, if you will, go from there to the reality of the internal war, the corruption of the flesh, the fact that we drag the corpse of the old man around with us, and we're gonna fight against that, this side of the resurrection.

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But we have this eternal, unshakable hope in Christ. We know that we will be with him because nothing can separate us from his love.

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God saves all of his people. And then I appeal to you brothers, by the mercies of God, present yourselves as living sacrifices.

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That's how we talk. Don't be conformed to the world, but renew your minds according to all these things that I've been writing.

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And now live a life of humility, live a life of love in the church where you pursue the good of your brothers and sisters in the honor of God.

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It's a much better way to speak. Amen, amen, amen. I'm glad the bus has waited. The buses will wait.

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Come on down to the bus stop, baby. Oh, awesome.

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Mike Grimes, you wanna close us out and give us contact information on all that? Yeah, thanks so much for being with us, guys, John and Justin. If you wanna be in touch with Theocast, you can find them online on theocast .org.

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You can find them on x at Theocast underscore O -R -G. They're on Instagram as well, Theocast underscore

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O -R -G. They're also on YouTube. You can find them there as well and get great content from them and be encouraged and edified by them.

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If you wanna be in touch with the Pactum, you can find us online, thepactum .org, x at the Pactum, Instagram at thepactumtheology.

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You can email us, connect at thepactum .org. Thanks so much for joining us and listening. We'll see you next week on The Pactum.

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Hey everyone, before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you. And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

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But we also need your support. And it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

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So the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.