When Two Sinners Have Conflicts | Outside Eden

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00:09

Welcome to Outside Eden, two sinners discovering grace together. I'm Jon Moffitt, the pastor of Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, along with my wife of 20 years,

00:20

Judith. Good morning. Good morning. And we have four children, ages, what are they, six, seven, seven to 18.

00:28

We just had a birthday. We also just moved houses, which is why this podcast is extremely applicable because whenever you move,

00:36

I don't know your experiences, Judith and I, but if you were to ask us, you know, what is one of the most painful things that we don't like to do, move.

00:45

But we moved houses. We love the house. It's been great. But that was why there was a pause with our podcast episodes.

00:50

You don't know there was a pause, but we do because we were the one recording them. But as I was thinking about a marriage seminar we had just done with our church and we wanted to add this to our church as far as thinking through life outside the garden, you know, a relationship that is now broken.

01:07

And with that comes conflict, especially when you have high stress events, things like buying a house and moving.

01:14

And we've done that three times now. So we've, I think each time have learned something new. Have we learned enough?

01:20

Can we be done? That's not up to me. If it was up to me, we would have been done on the last one and the one before that.

01:27

So, you know, every time we have this new phrase now, we never say this is a forever home because technically when you think about it, not to be super hyper -spiritual, but this is not our forever world and, but we decided not to say that and we'll see how long we can stay in here.

01:41

We have a track record of four years in each house. Okay. Let's jump into this conflict resolution.

01:47

We were talking before and what won't work is these conflicts aren't what we would call things that repair a marriage, right?

01:57

These are things that can help facilitate, I think, a restoration when there is a, an immediate conflict, but let's say there is a very toxic, painful, long extended marriage where there is just been abuse on either side.

02:12

I don't mean physically, but just emotionally. What we're about to offer you today, that's not this episode. If these aren't things that are going to restore a relationship such as that, but when it comes down to, if you're finding yourself, you feel like, man, it just feels like we keep getting into arguments that are just petty over and over and over again.

02:29

And then they just compound. And then all of a sudden you're arguing about things that is so insignificant. Like why are we arguing about that?

02:35

Or what are, what are we arguing about again? We have totally been in those situations before.

02:41

We were like, what? You know, our first few years of marriage, no one really taught us conflict resolution and it wasn't on her parents or mine.

02:49

It was just something that, I don't know, no one just kind of sat down and said, Hey, when you find yourself in these situations, this is what grace looks like.

02:55

This is what mercy looks like. This is what forgiveness looks like. This is what patience looks like.

03:01

This is when, when Paul said, or James wisdom is understanding, open to reason. Those were things that, you know, we just,

03:09

I think assumed upon each other and that's where the mistakes that was made. So we wanted to sit down early on in our marriage,

03:15

I guess not early on, but halfway through about 10 years ago and keep getting into arguments. And I don't know if we need to be in them because I think we're just talking past each other.

03:23

So we apply these rules, rules that I don't know where I learned them there. We learned them along the way, somewhere from different marriage books, some things.

03:30

So we wanted to just give you five practical tips that I think are examples of grace and mercy in a marriage.

03:36

When you find two sinners who are both desiring to please themselves, who want to do their own and it's sacrifice yourself for the other person.

03:45

This is a ways that can create some harmony. And I would say, keep the home protected from useless and meaningless arguments because there are, there are two legit one, because we're talking about like value systems, right?

04:00

Like, well, what do we think about our children? What are we doing with our kids? Right, right. What's the, what's the end goal?

04:05

Yeah. And we get into an argument. There's like, we, we kind of, we realize what we're arguing up may not be like, why would two adults argue when we both kind of talk to each other about like, wait a minute.

04:21

What are we really arguing about? Like what, what is the thing behind the thing is what's the thing behind the thing, right? And this happens on both of us.

04:28

Like if hated, you'll say, Hey, are you okay? And that's meaning, I think there's something else going on and you're just haven't processed it or told me, or I do that to you all the time.

04:37

I'll say, Hey, I feel like maybe, yeah, I guess I came off wrong. But my point is sometimes, yeah, well, sometimes

04:44

I feel like. Okay. I miss, I'm missing something that maybe she told me something earlier today and I didn't pick up on it.

04:50

I did to tell you this. And it was like, Oh, that's super helpful because it makes sense of why we're in this discussion right now.

04:55

Right. Or also sometimes I don't even realize something is deep down bothering me.

05:01

And so when you, to really think through, yeah, okay, obviously I am irritated or offended.

05:07

And why is that? What has been happening or, you know, what was said or has gone on. Yeah. And I think what's helpful for this is that what we're doing is we're admitting frailty to each other.

05:17

Right. Like one of the things in our home that we've been talking about more and more is expect weakness beings.

05:24

And we project ourselves to be stronger than we are. And it's really helpful to step back and go, no,

05:29

I am a weak, frail person. Maybe, maybe I am not observed. Maybe I don't see something or maybe, maybe there is something that's bothering me.

05:36

And we do this with our own kids. Yeah. And also, I don't know. I can't remember all the steps you're going to say, but I think part of that too is, oh, it looks like we are going to come to this, but I'm just going to say it right now anyway.

05:47

So don't forget is trusting your spouse when they say that to you just try and, oh,

05:52

I can't, I get to be the one who gets to point out right now that you're being irritable and it's not my fault.

05:59

So I think there, there has to be trust there to trust that they're saying this because they love me and they're saying it because they want to protect our relationship.

06:07

You have to. Yeah. I think it's speaking truth in love. So it's how you say something to, you know,

06:13

I have done that in the past completely wrong. Is there something else going on? And that just is, first of all, unkind, you know, like clearly you're the problem in this conversation.

06:24

Yeah. Tone makes a huge difference in the person who's saying it. You're right. Yeah. Right. And the versus if I were to say something like,

06:32

Hey, I feel like that you're, this may be something you need to tell me. Or I just feel like, you know,

06:37

I don't know. I just feel like something's off. Yeah, I know. Like I, the way I'll say it often is, Hey, I felt like something maybe about a little like off or something.

06:44

And you're like, yeah. And then like, it gives you a moment to take a breath and realize, yeah, I am projecting whatever my struggle is on you.

06:52

And I do the exact same thing. Yeah. I had a really hard day at the, I haven't had time to process it. And so I'm projecting it on you and you just assume

07:00

I'm being a jerk, you know, and that's not fair. And all it is is like, Judith is weak and I need to remember that.

07:06

And I'm weak. I need to remember that. And we have tendencies. And so this has been really helpful because there are times

07:12

I'm telling you guys, everybody's been there. You have a blow up and it is the over the dumbest thing.

07:17

You're like, are you kidding me? You know, really going to argue about that.

07:24

And then the second one I would say is when you're then still, okay, so there is no, no, there's nothing wrong.

07:30

There's nothing behind this. Then when we proceed, we're beginning to proceed. If it's a very heated conversation, okay, and when

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I mean by heated, it's like, it's not a, you know, who's picking up the kids. Oh, I forgot. I mean, this is significant.

07:44

We're having a significant conversation. We have to then giving mercy and grace.

07:49

Or I would say the other way of saying it is being open to reason is when, when James says that, oh, if I were to reword that,

07:56

I would say, we need to give that person the benefit of the doubt as if they're not trying to hurt me.

08:02

Right. Right. They're not, they're not trying to abuse or take advantage of me.

08:10

And I will say if there's been hurt in the past, which if you're in a relationship, there's been hurt in the past, that's going to be harder to do, especially if this is something you guys are just starting out on.

08:20

You know, John and I have been really trying by God's grace to practice this for several years now.

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But when you're first starting out with all that hurt in mind, what you just said right there is very hard.

08:32

And so you're going to have to ask God to help you to do that. It's not going to come now to where, you know,

08:37

I don't want to hear that. She's like, Hey, I think you might need to give me the benefit of the doubt. I didn't intend to forget this on purpose, you know?

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And I hear that and I'm like, okay, she's right. And she, you know, not, not judging, maybe, maybe my morning didn't go the way

08:51

I thought it was going to go. And I'm like, okay. Yeah, you're right. I probably should maybe assume, and we didn't put this one in here, but assume positive intent.

08:58

Like they didn't mean to hurt me. They weren't trying to go to catch me in something.

09:04

And again, this is why I'm saying if you're in a toxic relationship where you haven't restored massive pain, then this is hard because to assume positive intent or to give them a bit of benefit of the doubt, that means you have unresolved conflicts.

09:19

Yeah. So, all right. So, number three, this one I think really helped me because they're exactly the same.

09:27

Men and women, they don't even, we just don't think the same. Even if you have the same personality, right? It's not going to be the same.

09:34

Yeah. So, one of the, one of the things that we try and do is look at it from the other person's perspective and we will say that, like you remember,

09:42

I think the last time we had some, you would, you literally said, Hey, look at this from my perspective. This is what happened.

09:47

And I was like, Oh yeah, I totally, you're right. I didn't even think about it that way because Judith has a different history.

09:55

She has a different disposition. She has different preferences. She has things that she's afraid of that I'm not afraid of.

10:03

She's strong in that I'm not strong in, right? And so we just, what, what ends up happening when we're communicating with people, we tend to communicate it in the way in which we're most comfortable.

10:13

I'm short and to the point, can I, I'm going to give the, I'm going to give the, I'm going to give the illustration of picking up Jane from school because I think this is a really good one.

10:21

So you probably don't remember that. You'll figure it out as I'm going. So Jane used to go to this daycare two days a week. And one of the days

10:27

I would pick her up and bring her home after work. And when I get home, I think she was like, what, four, three, something like that.

10:34

And you would ask, start asking me like this litany of questions. I'm like, I don't know. I wasn't her teacher.

10:39

I wasn't there all day. She's like, did she go to the bathroom? Did she eat all her food? Did she take a nap?

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And I'm like, if you want to call that, you don't want to call the teacher. And finally I saw how to stop.

10:49

I think I have the fourth time because I was getting agitated and I'm like, I don't, every time you're asking me things, there's no way I'm going to know.

10:55

And you're like, well, if you would ask the teacher, you would know. And in my mind, I'm like, she's alive. She's not crying.

11:00

She does. I think she's potty trained. And you, you finally said,

11:05

John, this helps me when she gets home because if she's cranky and disobedient, I may be able to figure out she's hungry.

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She didn't have a nap. She hasn't gone to the bathroom today. And I was like, oh my word, that makes so much more sense.

11:17

So sometimes you have to even offer your perspective, like, Hey, real quick, I know we're in this horrible discussion, but you need to look at it from my perspective.

11:27

Which again, I think a lot of saying that has to, you have to remember your tone, demeanor when you're coming from that.

11:35

Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I think this has been helpful and I will say this is a whole nother podcast, but communication styles is important.

11:44

So now when I think about this, I remember Judith likes details and it doesn't, to me, some of these details

11:50

I'm like, I don't know, we'll figure it out. But to her it's important. And I have to remember that she may know something

11:56

I don't know, or she may want just confirmation in case something might happen with the kids.

12:02

I don't know. And so I have been, I tried harder in the future and I will more to offer more details, things that matter, things that mean something to you versus, okay, you know, that doesn't, it's not as important to me.

12:16

I'll even say this, like people's opinion of me, I hold a little bit lower, which is not good.

12:22

It can be. Yeah. And then, you know, you tend to, I think have a little bit higher of awareness. I wouldn't say you're worried about what people think, but just awareness.

12:30

Oh, totally. Yeah. And that has been helpful when we go, yeah, when we go into that, look, let's, you know, well,

12:36

I guess we'll be just a little vulnerable here. But when we were first married, we go into public, I would embarrass you all the time.

12:44

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not meaning to, you would just say stuff. Yeah. I know.

12:49

And I'm like an open book and you're like, Hey, I don't think everybody wants to know everything about you.

12:55

You might want to keep that private. What about me? Yeah, exactly. And that helped me just saying, okay, I need to look at this from my wife's perspective.

13:00

What makes her feel safe? It's not sinful, you know, and all that kind of stuff. So, all right, number four, and again, these are just helpful rules.

13:07

These aren't like guarantees, it has to be this way. Do you want to talk about this one? No, I, I forgot

13:14

I was going to say something, so it's fine. It'll come up later. Are you intending for me to feel this way?

13:20

So there are times where I'll get home and I'm expressing something to her and Juth will say,

13:25

Hey, are you, are you meaning to come across angry and mean? Because that's how you're sounding right now.

13:31

And I'm telling you that has been so helpful because I'm like, no,

13:36

I'm not angry at all. Or I'll do the same with you. I'm like, Hey babe, are you upset? And you're just frustrated and you're trying to get your frustrations out.

13:44

And it's not even me. It's like something with the kids or something has happened. And man, I there, cause you, we would get into arguments because I'm like, well,

13:52

I can't believe she's mad at me. You know, I've done this, this and this and why is she mad at me? And come to find out, you're like,

13:58

John, I'm not mad at you. I'm like, Oh, communication styles. Right. But I think it's helpful to say that because you have stopped and said, listen,

14:05

I'm not angry. There's nothing wrong. I'm not hiding anything. I just need to. And I know it's petty and where does that stand?

14:13

And I'm like oversensitive here. And I know that. And I'm like, I need to not be so sensitive. I'm always afraid. I'm like, is my wife angry at me?

14:18

Oh man. Well, I, I don't, I like a peaceful home. And so when I feel like there's no peace, it scares me.

14:24

Sorry. I'm, I'm about to get a complex. It just reminded me when we were praying for each other and Knox was sitting to my right.

14:31

So he was going to pray for me. You know, if I was cranky that day or what, but his prayer was help mom not to be upset at everybody or something like that.

14:39

I'm like, Oh my God. Okay. Maybe we should touch on that later. No. Anyway, it was funny.

14:45

Perspective of a seven -year -old is very limited. Anyway. Yeah. Hey, listen, it's good.

14:50

It's good. If you're meekness and gentleness. Hey, I don't know if you mean to be this way, but it definitely feels like you're angry.

14:57

No, no, no, no. I'm not angry. I'm just, I'm frustrated. And I'm trying to think through it because that also gives you a moment to take a breath and be like,

15:03

Oh, if that's how I'm coming across, maybe I need a pivot. Yeah. It's almost like if number three, look at it from their perspective, if that's not happening, you kind of can help by saying, are you intending?

15:13

This is my perspective. Yeah. You intending to give me that perspective. And again, I think tone is really big.

15:19

Anytime you're addressing them. And one of, you know, one of you is having trouble, you're telling the way it is just as important as what you're saying.

15:30

Yeah. We had this recently. You said, Hey, I don't know if you mean to be condescending, but that is very condescending.

15:35

And I was like, Oh no, not at all. I am not trying to put you down. Do you know what that means?

15:40

Just kidding. Wait, you know what condescending means, right? Oh, so good.

15:48

All right. All right. Last one. Understand their communication tendencies. We've kind of done this throughout, but I wanted to just emphasize this a little bit.

15:55

Judith is a processor. This podcast has been fun for us because I typically record with Justin and we'll talk over each other all the time.

16:04

And so I, I have to like fight for the mic and then I get done talking and I'm like, do you want to say something? And but you know, in, in many ways

16:15

I'm very thankful because Judith doesn't really say much. She doesn't, she won't say things that she, she wants to think about it.

16:20

And so, man, that was a problem when we first got married, I thought you were shutting me out. Remember?

16:26

I'm like, Hey, why are you just sitting there? And I would get angry. And you're like, you're not giving me time to think.

16:32

And unfortunately I'm a talker thinker. You're smiling.

16:38

I appreciate that. I think while I talk and sometimes I talk faster than I think, it's just not, not good.

16:44

But I'll give you an example. When in a conflict, I'm a problem solver, right? And I just want to get it done.

16:51

And sometimes when I say this, it sounds like I'm the spiritual one and the person who's the opposite of me is not, which is not true.

16:59

But the opposite of me would be someone who avoids conflict and someone who avoid conflict typically tends to be a much more patient and kind person than someone like me.

17:08

I tend to be more brash and harsh, but I'm like, well, no, if there's a conflict, I resolve it right away. Cause that's what the

17:13

Bible says. Well, the Bible also says to be gentle and kind and patient and long suffering.

17:19

And I lack in those areas. So what would happen is we would get into a disagreement and I would just press in and I thought you were just avoiding conflict.

17:27

And your response was, John, you're not even giving me time to think. So like I, someone, you know,

17:35

I'm giving my perspective of like, Hey, I think you're avoiding me. I think you're avoiding problems. Yeah. Give them your perspective of someone who's pushing in and won't like back off.

17:44

Yeah. Um, I actually couldn't think. So the more you would talk, it's like my, um, it's like, you know, my, my thoughts couldn't process at all.

17:54

I could not put together a coherent why I felt the way I felt and you know, so how can

17:59

I answer your questions if I don't even know why I'm doing what I'm doing or what led me to that or why

18:05

I said that or, um, so it's, it's not even like, I'm really uncomfortable talking about this right now.

18:11

I have to know it's, I, I honestly could not think as fast as you were talking to, to even let you know how

18:20

I was or why I was feeling that way or what it was that you said that upset me or whatever the conflict was about.

18:27

Um, yeah. So yeah. And the moments I haven't allowed you to do that, I think have been our worst regrettable conversations.

18:34

Yeah. Yeah. Because then, you know, I'm getting more and more panicked on the inside because I can't think and I, and I feel rushed, like I have to explain myself right now or I'm not going to get to say anything at all because, you know,

18:47

I'm forced me to do it right now. So when you force right now, I just kind of exploded and, um, you know, would probably sum up because that's all

18:56

I could handle at that point is, um, you know, and then at that point, I'm not just angry or upset because whatever we were arguing about,

19:04

I am angry and upset because I just felt forced to deal with something that I couldn't even comprehend, like putting my thoughts together about.

19:13

So yeah. Hmm. And I would say one of the things that I've tried to work on is like, all right, so I prefer to do it this way.

19:22

It's not a preference thing with Judith. She, she, it's not, she's preferring to do it this way. She needs time to process.

19:28

This is how she works. And so I am putting my, uh, preference above her needs really is what it was because it's not like you can't be, you're one of the smartest people

19:40

I ever know. You're a nurse. I mean, you know, things that I'm like, I, I couldn't even come to fathom that. And well, cause sometimes when

19:46

I say these things, just because I'm forceful and I can put string words together really fast, doesn't mean

19:52

I know more, I'm smarter, I'm better, but that's how it comes across people with my personality. I'm just trying to talk to the men and the women out there.

19:59

Cause it's not just men that are this way. Women can be this way too, where you just push, push, push, push, push, push, push.

20:05

And you're like forcing them into a decision and it's just not fair. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, it might be just help to remember.

20:12

And also if you're the kind of person who can't talk about things right away, you need to, in your heart, make sure that you're not giving them the silent treatment.

20:21

That's right. Because I think that can be hard to discern, um, the difference between just avoiding it and not wanting to talk about it and giving them the silent treatment versus, you know, really asking them for time to think about it and planning on a time when you will come back together and discuss it.

20:40

So, um, cause I'm sure at first it probably did also come across as a, well, yeah, you said shutting, shutting you out.

20:46

So I think that's, I think that's really important. And I think what helped us with that particular problem is when

20:54

I would say, Hey, you know, which when you're in the middle of a really intense fight, this just stopping to say anything softly is very difficult.

21:03

So that it's not going to come naturally again. So I think saying, Hey, I do want to talk about this.

21:09

I want to get this figured out, but I can't think right now. I need some time. Give me 20 minutes.

21:15

Let's come back at, you know, five 30. Let's come back. And I think by then

21:20

I will have been able to think through some things and really communicate what, what just happened. Yeah.

21:27

No. And that's super helpful because when it is getting, and we're not making progress, um, Judith will say,

21:32

Hey, look, I, we're not making progress and I think I need time to think I need time to process. And I'm like, that's fair because if we're not making progress, then why are we going to just keep banging heads together?

21:42

I mean, that's, this doesn't make any sense. And that's where patients and me and guys, all of this is Judith and I want to create a safe place where two centers can be centers.

21:51

She's going to give me mercy. I've got to give her mercy. I've got to give her space to figure things out. She has to give me.

21:56

And when both people are doing that, it, it, it like invigorates me to want to do it more. Like I'm like, all right, you know,

22:02

I'm going to give more patients. I'm going to give more kindness. Right. And, uh, you know, I will say that the, all five of these things we have practiced and we, we use them all the time in these aren't like, this is how your marriage will be perfect.

22:17

No, these are what I would call guardrails from running off the road and causing some damage.

22:23

It's hard to come back from. Cause also when you're in a heat and of argument, you're not thinking clearly. So just to remember these few things, these truths, um,

22:32

I think that can help you think clearly. They, they do seem obvious. They seem common sense who is using common sense when they're in a heated fight.

22:42

Right. So, um, but yeah, I think I wanted to add on, um, just how in all of these things, when you're doing these things, they all require vulnerability and, uh, you know, we might think, oh, of course.

22:55

Well, of course I'm vulnerable with my spouse or that's what biz, but you're not, you're, you're really not as vulnerable as you think you are.

23:02

If you are going throughout the day, making sure that you're, and I might be getting ahead of myself, um, making sure that your, your needs are being met, your needs are being heard, your rights are being honored.

23:15

Does that make sense? Like, I feel like in everything we've discussed in these five points, it all takes a certain trust of the other person, a certain vulnerability of, okay,

23:24

I am going to say that I could be wrong here. And I'm going to set my stuff aside and really try to see it from your perspective.

23:32

All of those things takes a huge amount of vulnerability and, um, total lack of self -protection.

23:40

And I don't know about you, but as soon as I am in an argument, I am immediately self -protecting and defensive because I feel like I have to, because if I don't,

23:50

I will get trampled on or taken advantage of or, or, you know, um, accused of something that I didn't do or didn't say or that type of thing.

24:00

So yeah, I think that's really helpful. So it's steps. You're right. It's five different like key thoughts to remember, but they're all kind of floating attached to this attitude of,

24:12

I might get hurt. I might do this and still get hurt. You know,

24:17

I might apologize when it's really not my fault. Like I might do all these things.

24:23

And that's just a part of like that vulnerability of dropping the self -protection and being willing to love them, you know, even when you feel like your rights are being taken away.

24:35

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's that first one when Paul says, uh, consider other people more significant than yourself.

24:42

This, these are ways to do that. Like, well, how do you do that? And like, well, here's this, here are simple ways to say, okay, you're significant in what

24:49

I think is going to be less significant than what you think. So how do I do that? And it's powerful, not to the point of abuse.

24:57

And we'll talk about the difference between arguments and abuse. Like at what point do you throw the red flag and say, okay, uh, this is not, this is not two adults communicating together.

25:08

This is abuse. Like one is overpowering the other one to the damage of the other person. Uh, and we'll talk about that not today, uh, and how to handle those things.

25:17

And then eventually down the road, we'll have some common, just Judith and I are not, uh, professional counselors.

25:22

Right. You know, I'm a pastor, she's a mom and she, she definitely has some, uh, experience in psychology just from school, from nursing, but those that's not our profession.

25:32

So we're not here to do that. We're here to talk to the husbands and wives and the single ladies and single men in our church about, uh, how to take the gospel in a church context and use it to make our marriages reflect

25:45

Christ. And so I'll end with this. Um, this is a verse that we love, but we don't always apply it, uh, in this way.

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But Jesus says, the world will know that you belong to me. You're my disciple. Like that's a huge thing to say that I am the being taught and following, uh,

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God. And he says, the world will know you're my disciple by the love that people see. And that starts in your marriage.

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As a matter of fact, your children are the first to a witness God's affection in you.

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And the secondly, your neighbors and those around you and your family. And that's not a pressure where we have to be perfect because love does not mean perfection.

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Jesus didn't mean that we're perfect, but love is where we are self -sacrificing and we're willing to forgive and seek forgiveness.

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We're willing to be gracious and give graciousness. And that's what we're trying to do here in this podcast is just help you think through those things where after 20 years, we could say,

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Nope, Nope, Nope, No, we didn't do it that way. And now we've learned some things and we're practicing and we,

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I feel like our conflicts are still have them because we're sinners and we're broken, but they feel like when we're finished with them, we're closer together and God is at least glorified because there was mercy given to each other versus, well, they're never going to get it and we just walk away.

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So, well, that was 26 minutes. I think that's good enough. Sorry. A little bit longer. Um, hopefully this was helpful.

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If you'd like to interact with us, you can go to theocast .org. There is a contact page right there for Outside Eden.

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If you have any questions or you would like to send Judith, I don't want to see them. Just kidding. But seriously, if any of the ladies would like to reach out and ask any questions, we'll do our best to try and get back to those.