She'll Destroy You If You Let Her - Jen Wilkin - Part 3

Hey, welcome back to the channel. I mean, every time I fire up the camera, it's, it feels like it's been like a lifetime of baseball watching since the last video and things are just as crazy as ever, the

Mets are tied with the Dodgers in the NLCS one game to one, which it's unbelievable that we're even in the

NLCS, we're a good team. That's the other thing. I think a lot of people are noticing too. This is not like David versus Goliath.

This is not, you know, like some kind of, we've been a really good team for the majority of the year.

We started off horrendous, but we are solid team. This is two solid teams facing off.

I don't even, I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm excited. But anyway, before we get into it too much,

I'm not going to talk too much about baseball because I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of baseball to talk about in the future.

Let me just, you know what, let me just check on Twitter. You know what I mean? I, you know, I did a video recently about Dr.

Joseph Boot. Uh, critical, definitely a critical video, although I really like Dr. Boot. So let's go, let's see what kind of pearls of wisdom he has for us today.

Before I do, let me just get ready. I think

I'm ready. I think I'm ready. Here's what

Dr. Joe Boot has to say. If you don't have and sit under a faithful male pastor or elders, then find some and move if necessary.

You cannot be pastored and adequately guided by the endless podcasters who think an armchair, baseball cap, and boom mic qualifies them to lead and shepherd

God's people theologically, culturally, or pastorally, pastorally.

Find a real church led by godly qualified men who know how to love their wives, teach their children and serve

God's people and commit to it. Churchless Christianity is not Christianity. Then by all means, listen to podcasts, but test everything against the word of God, or there is no end to the rabbit holes.

You will go down or what shipwreck you might make of your life. I'm in total agreement.

And I also have to say, Dr. Joseph Boot. Thanks for watching.

Oh man. A lot of people said that he was cast, throwing shade at me. And I think, you know, I can clearly understand why

I think the armchair here is probably referring to Joel Webben and then the baseball cap and boom mic.

I mean, I don't know. I, I don't watch a ton of podcasts, but I don't really know anybody.

I mean, I know a lot of people who have boom mics, maybe not as awesome as this boom mic, but I know a lot of people have boom mics.

I don't know anyone who, who, who does podcasts with a baseball cap on, which

I pretty regularly do. So a lot of people thought he was talking about me and I, you know,

I just retweeted him, Hey, thanks for watching. I appreciate it. And it also, it made a lot of sense too, because I had just done a video about a ridiculous tweet from Joseph boot,

Dr. Joseph boot. I don't want to be disrespectful. Um, even though I really liked Dr. Joseph boot,

I mean, this particular tweet was a little weird, um, to say the least. And, um, and, and, you know, so it made sense that he'd be kind of throwing a little shade my way.

And I, honestly, I didn't take it really that poorly because at the end of the day, I totally agree with this.

This is a good tweet. I I'm in full support of the message, even if he's throwing shade at me, but then, you know,

Dr. Joseph boot claims he's never heard of me before, which I'm going to choose to believe that I'm going to choose to believe that even though I did a recent episode criticizing

Dr. Joseph boot, and I've never done that before. It was probably within the last week or two that I did that video a week or two later, he comes out throwing shade at the old baseball cap and boom mic podcaster, which is not really shade because I agree with this.

Um, but he says he doesn't know he's never heard of me. He doesn't know who I am, which

I suppose was possible. And I suppose it is possible, but man, this is a, this is a very oddly specific little bunch of words here that makes me at least question whether or not he's being truthful about that.

I'm just going to say it. I'm just going to say, I'm choosing to believe it, but I have seen this play run many, many times before where I do not believe it, but Dr.

Joseph boot seems like a good enough guy. So I'm going to choose to believe it. And I also, I wanted to signal boost this tweet because it's a very good tweet.

It's completely correct. I mean, I think that if you don't have a faithful church with faithful elders in your town, you do got to, you know, move mountains to make that happen.

Um, now I do think that there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that go into faithfulness that I think you, you know, you, you need to,

I think, I think our, our, our definition of faithfulness, you know, needs to sometimes be expanded because I worry sometimes people think they need to move to find the church that checks every single theological box that they need to be checked.

And I think there are some that are very important, but, but, but I think that the nuances of theology, um, um, sometimes is not as much of a, um, uh, as much of a, um, how do

I put this in a way that's not going to get me in trouble? Ah, who cares? I don't care to get about getting in trouble. It's not actually, it doesn't actually lead to people and elders and pastors and churches that you can really count on.

I think behavior is a much better indicator of that. So if somebody believes the wrong thing about some nuances of theology, but you can count on them, you know, they'd, if you were away for the weekend and your wife needed, you know, someone to come and help her out, someone was outside or something like that, and she needed someone to come and, and, you know, protect the family, like you call up your pastor and he'd be there in five seconds, you know, someone who didn't, you know, bow the knee completely to COVID like stuff like that,

I think the behavior and the action, um, sometimes can cover a lot of, of problems with the specifics of theology.

Now, of course there are some non -negotiables and we, you know, of course we know we can get into that kind of thing, but I think sometimes it's like, well, he, my pastor's not post -millennial, so is he really faithful?

Well, anyway, I think, you know what I mean? I think, you know what I mean? So anyway, I, I agree with the tweet.

Uh, I found this part to be particularly interesting, not in itself. I mean, cause I can understand throwing shade at someone who is critical of you, but then when he said he didn't, he's never heard of me, he tried to say,

I wasn't really talking about anyone specifically, uh, you know, again, I'm going to choose to believe it cause you're a good guy, but, uh, man,

I've seen this play, this play has been run many times. I've seen some things, I've seen some things.

Anyway, that's not what this video is about. This video is part three of the

Jen Wilken extravaganza. And if you remember, we left off on two positive notes in a row.

I mean, I, and I rewatched the second one and you know, I'm going to, I'm not going to take away Colin Hanson's credit, but you know, he also, and you know,

I'm not even gonna get into it. Not going to get into it. Let's just continue. Them to have their, their opportunity to be together for obvious reasons, but also make sure we're working really hard to bring the male and female students together in spaces where they can interact with each other.

And truthfully, when you're training pastors, they need to know how to interact with women and their churches. If you have a seminary environment that's supposed to train them and they're only interacting with their other guys, that actually isn't a very good training ground for what the real world is going to be when they get into churches.

I'm still drinking it. I, uh, I've got a, I still got a few left. Oreo Coke zero.

Um, yeah, that's really dumb. Very dumb. Very, very, very, very dumb.

We got to have women in seminaries, you know, taking the classes to prepare to be pastors, you know, that's what

I call me old fashioned. I thought that's what seminary was for. I don't know. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. I don't know, but we got to have women there training to be pastors because if they're not there, then how are pastors going to ever know how to talk to the women?

They're going to have to be interacting with women as pastors. How are they going to know? What are they going to do? I mean, you know, we got to have the women at the seminaries training to be a pastor, obviously.

I mean, that, that's the only solution. Oh man.

Um, you know, I, I did hear that he had said this prior to watching this.

So I can't say that that's my honest, like first reaction. But that is really stupid, really, really stupid.

I mean, and they're all eating it up too.

I mean, oh yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. That's definitely true. You know, the, the real truth, the real truth about why, you know, every seminary allows women essentially, and it is basically dollars and cents.

I mean, there's no reason for them to be there. They're not training to be pastors, at least in theory, but a lot of them are actually, especially conservative seminaries that, you know, you wouldn't think would have, uh, women, you know, pastors training there.

Um, that's what they're doing. They're training women pastors. And even if it won't be in their own denominations, which often it is, even if they don't have the title, uh, it'll be other denominations.

It's, it's not, it's an egalitarian thing to have women and men learning together how to be a pastor in seminary.

Um, it's fundamentally egalitarian. So it just, it just, you know, it goes against everything you claim to believe if you, if you pretend to be a conservative seminary.

But, but, but, but even, even, even beyond that, it's just, it's just like, I mean, really, Michael, you can't think of any other way that they could learn how to be a pastor properly without, you know, women learning alongside them, uh, how to be a pastor as well.

You can't think of anything, any, any other way that that was going to work. I mean, what are they imagining? Like, are these pastors taking meetings individually with women over coffee, you know, to, to disciple them up?

Like, what are they, what are they picturings happening, uh, at the pastoral, pastoral level? I mean, I mean,

I guess it is happening. I mean, the question is why, why is that happening? I don't know. I don't know.

I mean, I think we need, I think, I think what we do need is a better picture of the ideal. Um, and that's the problem here.

Like, they're not asking the fundamental questions. Is it ideal that we have these women's Bible studies?

Is it ideal? Is that what we're shooting, should be shooting for? Because we do have them right now. And of course, if you're going to have them, you're going to want them to be as effective as possible.

But I think the real question is, is, is that even the goal? Is that even what we should be shooting for? Because again, a lot of these problems are self -inflicted, you know what

I mean? And it's a self -inflicted problem to have women training to be pastors in seminary at conservative seminaries.

That's a self -inflicted problem. You could just, you could just try not having that. You know what

I mean? Now I was thinking about this just today. Like, you know, one of my, one of my, uh, psychosis is

I, I only watch, uh, I like to listen to like sports podcasters, you know, after big games and stuff like that.

But I only watch when, after the team that I like has lost, I don't watch my, I don't watch Mets podcasters after a big

Mets victory. I only do it after a loss. And if it's a big Mets victory, I usually watch the opposing teams podcast because I don't know, maybe

I just like the suffering, who knows. But, um, I see all these people get worked up about the

Jets because they still stink, even though they have Aaron Rodgers, which I predicted, I knew that would happen. Um, and they're getting all worked up and they're getting all,

Oh, it's an anxiety. It's brutal. I, I can't take this anymore. And I thought to myself, you know, you could just try not being a

Jets fan. I mean, that is a possibility. You could just do that if you want it to. So obviously you're really not suffering that much.

You know what I mean? You can just try not doing that thing. But, uh, in any case, let's, let's just continue.

I don't, other people have commented about that particularly stupid comment from Michael Kruger. Um, is it

Dr. Michael Kruger? I have to assume it is Dr. Kruger. Um, a lot of people have commented that this is particularly stupid comment, but, uh, let's just move on.

Um, Jen, you can come back late. Well, let's talk about that right now of what, of Corey's point of how do we go from, how do we raise up and encourage other women, teachers, and leaders so that alongside they're doing their

Jen Wilkins studies, they're also learning themselves to teach. And I know this is your heart. It is.

Absolutely. I don't want to be, yeah, I don't want to be the head on the screen. That's the only female voice that women are hearing in the local church.

It can be a starting point, but it shouldn't be the terminus for what churches are doing with their women. I've been 15 years straight up with you.

And this is, um, it's not a knock on anybody, um, uh, in particular, but I've just been,

I've been at a lot of churches. I know how they go and even really good churches, people that I love very dearly that I know are solid, solid believers.

You know what I mean? And they have their head screwed on straight. They can read the times, you know, all of that stuff.

So this is not a knock on any pastor that I know in particular. Um, and it's not a knock on my pastor friends who are watching this channel.

Cause I know a lot of you guys do this too, but they, but, but, but the way that he presents this and Jen's like eating it up, of course, oh yeah.

You know, how do we train the women to be teaching theology? Which of course is not biblical at all. That's not the goal.

That's not the goal. It's not what it says in the Bible that the women should be teaching each other. The older women are training the younger women in very particular things.

And we've already been through that. It's, and it's not, you know, the nuances of theology or hermeneutics or, or interpretation or any of that stuff, exegesis, none of that, but she talks like, oh, well,

I don't want to be the only, I don't, I don't want to be just talking head on a screen. You know, we want other women to train other women and stuff like that.

She presents this as like, this is gendered problem. Honestly, that's a problem across genders. That, that happens all the time.

Cross genders. You know what I mean? How many Bible studies have you been to, which, which basically what they are is you get

Steven Lawson on a, on a, on a, on a video screen, and I'm obviously picking Steven Lawson intentionally or R .C.

Sproul or any of these guys on a video screen, teaching a lesson, and then you talk about it afterwards.

And there's like questions and discussion groups and stuff like that. Look, I know it's a time saver. I get it.

It's a time saver. And I understand pastors are very busy, so I'm not knocking anyone for using the time saver.

But that's just how, that's how it's, that's how it's done much of the time. So it's not, that's not a gendered, you know, if it is a problem, it's not a gendered problem.

That's what happens. You know what I mean? And I mentioned this before, like, you know, I don't go to small groups, you know, when the small group essentially is,

Hey, let's, let's, let's, you know, do this video series and let's, let's look, let's watch crazy love on video and then talk about it.

I don't like doing that. I used to do that and I never liked it even when I used to do it. Um, but I don't do that anymore.

You know what I mean? Like, like I, you know, much prefer, um, just kind of like a natural sort of organic conversation about the things that matter to me, the things that matter to my pastor.

You know, maybe my pastor wants to talk about a certain topic with me in particular, because he knows me in particular and he knows where I'm strong and where I'm weak and where I struggle and where I'm not.

And, you know, things like that. Like the, the, the, the video series type thing that, that can be helpful in some ways, and I'm not knocking those videos.

I mean, I've seen many R .C. Sproul video study series that are very helpful, but this is not a gendered issue.

If it's a problem, it's not a gendered problem. This is what, this is how churches are. You know what

I mean? They, they, in a lot of churches, you know, especially in new England, this, this happens all the time. You know, the pastor gets really old and then he dies and there's no successor.

So what do they do? They do a pastor search. And what do they do in the pastor search? They field applications from all over the place.

And you've got a guy who, who, who lives in Idaho, nothing against Idaho, applying to a job in Vermont.

And he has zero connection to the people, zero knowledge of what's been going on and what continues to go on and what the challenges are, and they come in and they interview and they, they preach and stuff like that.

And look, sometimes that's good. You get a great pastor. A lot of times it doesn't work out, at least long -term.

We conduct these pastor searches like they're a national search to find, you know, a needle in a haystack candidate, you know, who has this particular set of skills and this particular industry background,

I've done these searches. It's my job. I do these kinds of searches. You only open up a national search when you've got a very, very particular candidate in mind where there's maybe, you know, 50 of them in the world.

Then you open up a national search and you, and you feel these resumes and you try to figure out how to get that candidate over to your location, but when, but, but, but that shouldn't be how pastor searches are in the

United States of America, maybe in like Saudi Arabia, where there's few pastors, but in the

United States of America, like we, we have a foundation of Christians and believers and people that have talents.

Like, like, shouldn't it be like, shouldn't you be creating your own succession plan? I mean, this is an issue.

This is an issue that happens. There's a lot of good pastors out there. And then when they leave or they, they, you know, they pass away and they get too old, they want to retire.

There's not, there's no plan. There's no like that's, that's how, especially in new

England, this might be a local thing to me. I don't know, but I have a feeling a lot of searches go this way because, you know, you think maybe there's more

Christians in Dallas, in Texas, and so it wouldn't go this way. Well, that's, that's not what my stats say.

I mean, weren't we talking about Matt Chandler hiring an executive search firm to find a pastor because he wanted to have a black candidate that was a black seven or a six or whatever, instead of a white eight?

Like what, how is that, how is a pastor search company even a thing?

I don't even understand. I, how was that a successful business model? I don't get it.

I mean, more power to the companies that are doing that, but like, Oh man. So they're presenting this like, this is this gendered problem.

Like, Oh, we don't have enough women training. Anyway, honestly, I don't, I still see it that way. I don't see it that way.

So go, there weren't nearly as many examples at a national level. There were some examples, but not nearly as many.

So it seems like we are making some progress there, but what's the next step look like? Well, so it's not an all female solution, right?

Because, um, the reality of the local church. Ultimately, look, we had our fun, you know, kind of propping up Colin Hanson as a, as an unsung hero here.

But ultimately he's pushing the same egalitarianism that Jen Wilkin is. It's as simple as that.

I mean, he, I got a few zingers in there. Great. Good on him. Pat on the back for him. But ultimately he's put, he's pushing the idea that there's not enough, you know, women in leadership in the church that can't be pastors, but they can be basically pastors without the title.

Um, that's what he's pushing. You know what I mean? You know, when Jen Wilkin talks about being in the elder room to make these big decisions or whatever, and presents herself as one of the pastors, one of the elders in the elder room,

Colin, quite frankly, Colin Hanson is right there. Cheering her on that. That's what he thinks is a big problem is we don't have enough women in leadership.

Um, and, um, it is, it is mind boggling to me how you could see all of these organizations that kind of, you know, ramrod women into leadership, and then they run these things into the ground, whether it's a country, whether it's a military, whether it's a company running into the ground with all their

DEI stuff and all of that stuff, and to consistently see that play out in the news again and again and again and again, and to think, oh yeah, yeah, we need some of that here in the church.

We need some of that here in the church as if women aren't running things in the church anyway, I mean, cause that's a story

I've heard a thousand times where there's a secret elder board that's comprised primarily of women that, you know, basically runs the church.

I mean, that, how many churches do you know that that's the case where there's, there's a, there's an elder board and then there's the elder board, you know what

I mean? And there's women running the church. I mean, and he's over here thinking, oh yeah, yeah, the problem is we don't have enough women, visible women in leadership, you know, it's just mind boggling that how, how, how backwards can, can

Gospel Coalition understand everything? How upside down can it be like that?

It's just, it really is impressive that they can consistently be so opposite of what reality is.

It's hard to believe. This in a, in a male led local church is that men are going to control access to budgets and calendars and to resources as well.

And that sounds, I don't mean it to sound like control in a negative way. It's just the reality of the way most church organizations function.

I know that my ability to be, to receive good training, my ability to even have a room to talk to was heavily related to whether there was a man in a ministry role who looked at what

I was doing and said, this is valuable. This is important. This is essential. It's not nice, but not necessary.

And we need those door holders. And unfortunately, there's a lot of subtext running in, in a lot of our churches that says, you know,

Mike touched on this, says that that, that shouldn't happen. And, and women pick up on this.

We know if a male pastor or pastoral staff doesn't want to meet with us, but we'll meet with a man who's in a comparable role in the local church.

And the reality, our theological reality is, is that a non -elder male is in the same space as a female in the local church.

And so there should be access for a woman in the same way that there would be for any non -elder male.

Again, this is just, this is just flaunting, you know, insanity in the face of reality.

I mean, it is true that as a, as a, as a, as a, as a, as a pew sitter,

I sit in the same pew that a woman would sit in and we're hearing the same message and the pastor's got the same call, you know, to shepherd, you know, me and a woman at the same time.

That is very true, but it is not a mystery. It is not inappropriate.

It is not ungodly or unbiblical for me to be able to call pastor Bill up and say, hey, pastor

Bill, let's go meet for a cigar tomorrow night. And him saying, sure, that sounds great.

Um, and a woman couldn't do the same thing. A woman couldn't do the same thing and say, hey, pastor, meet me for a drink.

You know, I'd like to, I'd like to talk to you about something and the, and the pastor's not going to do that.

And there's everything right about that because the pastor's married. He's not going to meet up with a woman in the same way that he might meet up with me, even though we sit in the same pews and he's got the same charge over our lives.

Don't be stupid. Jen wants you to be stupid. Jen wants you to be stupid.

And I gotta be straight up with you. I know a lot of people, very cynical, and they think this is a trap, an intentional trap that they're setting you up in.

And I gotta be honest with you. I don't know Jen Wilkin, but it sure, it sure strikes me as an intentional freaking trap.

If you are a man, it doesn't matter if you're a pastor, if you're a man and you're married and a woman wants to meet up with you to talk, no matter what they say, they could say it's about anything.

I want to talk to you about X, Y, Z. I want to talk to you about, it could be as the most innocent sounding thing in the world, and they want to meet you for a drink or they want to meet you for coffee or they want to meet you for breakfast or something like that.

Don't do it. Don't do it.

It is, there's no good that could come of it. None. If someone wants to meet you, bring someone along.

It's just, it's just that simple. It is just that simple. Nothing good will come from that one -on -one meeting.

Nothing. Or meet in your office, leave the door open and have someone sitting outside.

I mean, I don't know you, you, you run your own life, but what I'm saying is it's a trap.

It's a freaking trap. Don't be an idiot. I mean, if you have to just read the first few chapters of Proverbs again and again and again and again and again, and again, it's a trap.

Don't fall into it. And the, and the women go, Oh, you can't imagine anyone that, you know, wants to talk to you that doesn't like you and stuff like that's all noise.

It's all noise. Don't pay attention to it. The women that say stuff like that, personify woman folly.

Do not, do not, do not heed them. What? Not even one iota.

Oh, you can't imagine. You're so, they must be flirting with you. If they talk to you, like it's all noise.

It's all noise. Don't let women like that rob you of your senses, of your wits.

It's not good. Your, your wife's best friend could call you up and say,

Oh, you know, I want to plan a party for your wife, you know, let's, let's meet and plan it. You know what

I mean? Don't do it. It's just that simple.

You just don't do it. I don't know what else to say. This is, I mean, this is, do you listen to, listen to Jen Wilkin at your peril?

I mean, honestly, unless you're doing it just for the, for the laughs, but her advice is terrible, her mindset is completely off and I personally,

I think a lot of this is intentional. I'm not going to lie. I think she's sneaky. I think she's sneaky. Oh, um, that's not always the case.

And because I have had just an incredible gift in the male leaders that I've served under who have said,

I value this and I want to, um, not just amplify this, but I want to resource this person so she can do the job well.

Control the keys to, uh, the rooms and the funding and stuff like that. Tough luck.

That's how it is. It's how God made it. That's what God wants. Tough luck.

If someone doesn't believe in what you're doing, you're not going to get funding. Tough luck. Again, a lot of this is self -inflicted.

All these programs that people have, they got a ton of programs. They got to get funding and this and that. You got to get availability for the room, this and that.

A lot of this is self -inflicted. I mean, I just don't think you could go into the Bible and say, Oh, that's what we really, that's, that's a true biblical church.

There's a million programs. I'm not against programs, but it's just, again, we got to be wondering what is the goal here?

Like what, what, what, what is the ideal? What should we be shooting for? I think if you solve that problem, a lot of these problems just kind of fizzle out naturally.

Well, um, it's made all the difference in the world for me. Women need to see other women doing this, but that's not enough.

A lot of women will go home from this national conference, having seen women do something that they didn't even conceive of themselves doing, and they'll return to a church where a woman doing that, uh, is so low on the list of things that people care about, that they'll meet with a lot of frustration.

And I really believe they go home to a church who, who sees what's going on here and says, no, it's not about it's low on the priority list.

It's not about, we don't have the money. It's not about, we don't have the time. It's not about, we don't have the care. It's the answer is no.

I'm telling you, man, if, if men can just figure out how to tell women, no, when they have a dumb idea,

I mean, we could solve the, you know, 90 % of the world's problems overnight, overnight, just tell them, no.

No, it's not going to happen here. Be frustrated, do whatever you want to do.

You need to leave, go ahead and leave. I am not going to put you in that position. You are not going to be a leader at this church.

That is not God's design for you. That is not the way God has told us to do this.

We are not going to do it. We are going to protect you more than you want to protect yourself.

We care about you more than we, than you care about yourself. The answer is no.

And you could say it politely and you can say it. And if you feel like you need to, uh, you know, do the wimpy, like apology,

I'm sorry about this, go ahead and do all that, but just say no. There's a great scene in, in, uh, in the

Bronx tale where the mobsters offer, uh, uh, sees dad a job and, uh, it's making tons more money than he does.

He's like a bus driver. It makes tons more money and he doesn't have to really do much, but it was just a thank you. A thank you for the kid, not turning him in.

Right. The kid wasn't a rat, so they were just going to give him some money just basically for doing nothing and, and, and sees dad, you know,

Robert De Niro plays him and he says, you know, tell him thanks, but I can't do it. It's not for me.

And he goes, really? And he goes, I can't do it. It's not for me. No, it's just that simple.

It's just that simple. You just say no. And with that, we've been at this for 30 minutes.

We didn't get too through much through too much of it, but that's okay. You know, we had to talk about, you know, my baseball hat and my boom mic in any case,