May 9, 2024 Show with Ron Aguiar on “Keeping Your Church Safe” (Part 2)

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this ninth day of May 2024, and I'm delighted to have back as a guest today

Ron Aguiar. We had Ron on the program before to discuss a very important topic.

We are discussing today part two of his book,

Keeping Your Church Safe, and we are going to be discussing aspects of that topic that we did not have time to address the last time that we had

Ron on the program, and the last time we had Ron on the program to discuss part one of this subject was

February 7th, so I urge everyone to, after this live program is over, to look up part one of Keeping Your Church Safe, February 7th, 2024, with Ron Aguiar, and you could type in A -G -U -I -A -R, his last name, into the search engine at ironsharpensironradio .com,

and you will get that link for part one of that discussion, and I'm delighted to have you back on the program for part two of Keeping Your Church Safe, Ron Aguiar.

Thanks, Chris. My pleasure to be here again. Yes, Ron is an expert on church safety and security, with more than 30 years of experience in private security, law enforcement, and church security, and I don't know if you completed discussing the things that are most important for church leaders to know about keeping your church safe from outside intruders, that was the primary content of part one that we discussed on February 7th, terrorists and crazy people and so on who are trying to do harm to those within the congregation coming from the outside.

Right, and as you well know, in Pennsylvania, this past week, a young man came into a fairly small church and pointed a gun at the pastor, and fortunately, the gun was jammed, didn't fire, pastor ducked out of the way, and a member jumped the gentleman.

He and the pastor then held the guy until the police arrived. Later on, we found out that the pastor said that he had come in and out, in and out during the preaching, which is unusual.

So if you see something like that, someone needs to get up and just talk to the guy, find out what's going on.

Why is he coming in and out? Does he need a seat? I mean, later on, it was found out he was mentally ill, and the police have since said they found a person that had been shot and killed on his street in a house.

I think that happened yesterday. So they don't know if he has any connection with that, but they feel he definitely has some mental problems.

Yeah, well, if you listen to the part one of this discussion that we began on February 7th, folks, you will learn all the details on how your church can prevent things like that from happening.

And did you cover everything as far as outside intruders into the church on our last program?

Is there anything that you needed to wrap up? I think we covered it, but just to reiterate,

I think there's four parts to an effective security program for physical security of the building.

And that is, first of all, the parking lot, like we talked about. Having somebody in the parking lot with a little radio that can connect to the safety, security, or somebody in the building that can help him, because they'll notice somebody coming in the building or parking their car that's unusual, and they can call and say, listen,

I got somebody out here that just really seems strange. He doesn't appear to be a regular. And then security can come out and say hello to the individual.

The second point would be at the doors where we have greeters. Same thing. The greeters, if they feel uncomfortable when somebody comes in, they don't know them, or even if it's a member that's acting strange, you know, go get a security person and have them talk to the person.

You may want to let them slide into the building, don't cause a confrontation, but get some from security really quickly to talk to them.

And the third would be the worship center and having somebody in the worship center seated and kind of protecting the building inside.

There's also the hallways in the building where you need somebody walking around, and don't forget the children's area.

You want to protect the children with somebody that kind of hangs out in the children's area to protect them also. So I think that kind of sums it up.

We went into detail in the first program, but that kind of sums up the basic physical security. And then also we talked about forming a security team and arming them and things of that nature on the first program.

So that really is what we had talked about in the first program. Great. Well, as far as things that occur from within the church, the dangers that can occur that are harmful or fatal or potentially harmful and fatal to those that are members of the congregation that are caused by inside issues, not from invading intruders, not from terrorist attacks, not from crazy people.

What would be the most common things that put a congregation at risk that they are not typically well prepared to handle when they occur?

Well, I mean, the Southern Springs shooting that killed 26 people in Texas, that was a prime example of a domestic.

I mean, basically you had someone who's upset at his mother -in -law and came and shot and killed 26.

So you'll have domestics. You'll have a husband and wife divorce situation, separations that may or may not include the children.

These things can boil up very, very quickly. And so you got to be able to recognize this stuff as it happens or before the violence occurs.

You know, if somebody comes to a pastor and said, listen, I'm having trouble with my husband or my wife, I need to talk to somebody.

Then sit down, listen and talk. And most pastors will do some counseling or whatever. But you got to ask the right questions.

Is he violent? Does he have a gun at home? You know, because people just will explode at any given time, especially when it involves divorce or children.

I've had them have court documents brought to church and said, I've got an

EPO against my ex -husband. He's not allowed within a thousand feet of me. And so you got to deal with things like that.

And if they get on campus, the worry is that they'll pull a gun and not only shoot her or him, but they'll end up shooting other people.

So that's a real danger. The other is child custody.

There's always a battle in child custody when it comes to a divorce or separation. And a lot of things will happen in the children's area when people try to pick up their kids that they don't have the weekend.

They're not supposed to pick the kid up this weekend. And that can escalate very quickly, either violence against staff members or volunteers or their ex -spouse.

So those are a couple of areas. And this is domestics, of course. Or, you know, you can just have people just mad at each other for some reason or another.

But usually it's some kind of feud that occurs. And our staff and volunteers that work in your church really have to be prepared and understand if you see somebody arguing or whatever.

You know, I just saw two guys the other day, one who was acquainted with this past week in a situation in front of me and about some words that were exchanged over a female.

And nothing bad was said. It was just the tone. And the gentleman I knew took a step toward the guy and he looked at me and I basically put my hands up.

I said, hey, calm down, calm down. And he turned around and walked away. I mean, those are the things that you have to be prepared, especially if you're on the team, if you're an usher, a greeter, somebody that's watching people coming in and out of the church.

So to answer that, I think domestics and also feuds between people. But the domestics really seem to take a toll when it comes to violence happening in the church.

Well, how would you prepare a church from an attack or something like that that does not come from an outsider?

There are different things, obviously, that your security team needs to be aware of and ready to respond to that are different from a total stranger coming in.

Right. So how would you handle that differently? Well, I think as soon as you know about it or you see it,

I think you got to respond. I think if like I said, we had women come up to us and say,

I got an EPR against my husband. So you got a picture of him. I need to see how he looks like. And when he steps in the church,

I need to talk to him. So, hey, John, how are you doing? And we'd sit down and talk to him and say, listen,

I know you got a there's a protective order against you. And while you're on the church property, this is how we'd like you to act or where to sit and stuff, because the order says you have to be so many feet away.

If it's a small church, guess what? They're not going to be allowed on the property because a thousand feet is a long way away. And most people are that distance.

So you got to find out who they are. Get a picture. Distributed them among your team. Excuse me.

And try to prevent it that way. So the first you hear about it or see about it. Always respond.

Always shake somebody's hand. Introduce yourself and say, listen, what's going on? I need to talk to you about this.

Pull them off to the side. Get somebody with you and try to find out what's going on before the violence occurs. In addition to actually dealing with attackers, your your book does deal with how to prepare yourself for other things that happen inside the church.

That may be, for instance, somebody having a stroke, a heart attack, things like that.

How do we other than dialing 911 because it often takes too long for law enforcement or an ambulance to arrive?

What can a church do that they typically are not prepared to do? Right. There's more calls for medical assistance and security at a church.

I mean, that's always the case. I mean, everybody can almost almost everybody can remember if you've been going to church long enough.

Somebody yelling and said, I need a doctor. I need a doctor. Somebody's fainted or having a heart attack or whatever.

Put it put a medical team together, even if you're a small church. Get one or two people that have medical backgrounds, an

EMT, a paramedic, a firefighter, a nurse, a doctor, somebody like that.

Put them in charge and all and talk to your attorney before you do this, because almost every jurisdiction in the country, all 50 states have what they call good

Samaritan law. This allows people when you pull up on an accident on a freeway.

It allows you to get out and render first aid and not be sued over that.

Just doing the best that you can. That's a that's falls under the good Samaritan law. Now, same thing with the medical team.

They're there. They don't bring their medical bags. They don't bring medication. They don't bring any of that.

But they're there to assist somebody who may need help basically doing triage. What's going on?

And tell me what's going on. Somebody called 9 -1 -1 while I treat this person. And if you can, if it's a small church, you're going to deal with the person right there.

It's a larger church. You take them out of the sanctuary and take them someplace else. My suggestion is get a bag together.

Put some stuff together. You may need a stethoscope, blood pressure cuff, large first aid kit.

Also, oxygen really, really helps when somebody is having a heart attack or a problem breathing.

And after 9 -1 -1, you need now what they call a prescription, a doctor's script, in order to get oxygen.

And most welding shops have them that wholesale these items. They're not expensive. You can buy a couple of bottles that sit about three feet tall that sit on a little rolling cage.

And you can get the oxygen. And if you've got a nurse or EMT or doctor there, they can administer the oxygen.

It's no big deal, but it'll save somebody's life. The other thing, and I live in Florida.

In Florida, all schools are mandated to have what they call bleed kits. And this is the kit that the military devised years ago to stop bleeding in a really catastrophic wound.

And people need to be trained to have this. And I think a church of most size, medium or large churches especially, should have bleed kits.

They're not expensive. You can buy them on the Internet. And have a fireman or nurse or EMT come and show you how they operate.

It's really simple. That's also good. Those little items to help someone.

Also have them in place in the medical team. Have somebody, the ushers, whenever there's a medical, the ushers need to come and help.

For the crowd control and also pick their phone up and call 911 if that need be. We've had people, we're a large church of course, so we would average a medical call per service.

And that's three services a weekend. We had averaged about 25 runs by EMS to the hospital a year.

And while I was there, we had two people that had cardiac arrest and passed away. So you've got to be prepared for that.

An AED is also a great investment. An AED is that automated external defibrillator that will help someone if they're having a problem with a heart attack.

Not always, but a lot of times it will save lives. And we had that at our church. We had a few because of our size.

And we actually saved probably three or four people while I was there. So we've experienced all of those things.

Most of the time, it's somebody that forgets to take their medication in the morning, doesn't eat, they're hypoglycemic, and they kind of need some food.

A diabetic whose sugar is kind of crashing and they're not aware of that because they get disoriented.

So those are the things that the medical team will encounter. I mean, funny stories, but we had a lady who was pregnant, nine months pregnant, having contractions, but wouldn't leave the sanctuary because we were doing an

Easter pageant. And she goes, I'm not leaving. And so while she was there, we had two nurses with her timing her contractions.

And we had an ambulance waiting for her at the door and finally took her in the ambulance. She gave birth in the hospital shortly after getting there.

But you've got to be prepared for those medical things. And the kids, the kids will have scrapes and bruises and things when they fall.

And be prepared for that stuff also. If you're a large church and, you know, really large, mega church, then you're going to want to have someone in the kids' area just taking care of them.

When I say take somebody to a medical place outside the sanctuary, I'm looking at, in a small church, you'll take them to a bathroom that has a tile floor that you can put an eight by four table quickly shoved in there.

You have a sink and it's cool and they can lay on this table while they get looked at or in a wheelchair.

That's nice for them to sit where you can wheel them out of the sanctuary if you need to. And those things you can buy fairly inexpensive.

We found when I look really hard, I found some ambulance companies that were turning over their equipment and they would buy a stretcher, you know, three or four thousand dollars, but they'd sell it on surplus anywhere from $100 to $500.

So you can get away and buy some stuff fairly inexpensively. And you take them there, you treat them, and hopefully it's just a glass of orange juice, a little bit of oxygen, and they're fine.

But if you need to, someone's there to call 911. The other thing, Chris, that we treated the medical team is the medical team, just like the security team, is a ministry.

And there would be many times, as I mentioned, we had a lot of calls. There'd be many times

I'd open the door to our medical room and I'd see a doctor on his knees praying with the patient. It was incredible to see that.

And we would always follow up with the patient and their family, get their information. And I would give them a call.

One of the medical team would give them a call. And a lot of times, if there weren't members, they'd start coming to our church.

When I mentioned the two ladies that passed away, one of them, I had talked to her five minutes before she had her cardiac arrest because she was in discomfort.

But then she gained her composure and said she wanted to stay in the sanctuary. When she had her cardiac arrest, of course, we couldn't save her.

Her family was not members of our church. But because of the treatment they got, the follow -up to the family, they came to us to have the funeral at our building.

So that's ministry and that's reaching out and taking care of people in the Lord's name.

But that's some things that I thought I'd mention with the medical team. Now, obviously, it's not just equipment then that churches need, but it's also a medical team.

Yes. Even if a church is small, you should have some preparedness for medical emergencies.

Can you tell me on how to develop such a team? Well, I think

I'd put all call out into the church, find out, see if there's anybody that's on medical staff currently in hospitals or ERs or wherever, even the fire department, the

EMTs and paramedics. Those people work shifts usually, and this is a great place for them to volunteer.

So I'd use them. I'd tap them on the shoulder first. If you don't have anybody, then

I'd reach out in the community and find somebody, go down to the fire department and say, listen, our church needs some help.

We don't have a medical team, but you're close to us. Can you come and give us some pointers and help in case something happens?

The other thing is if you're using lay people to help in this situation, make sure everybody is up to par with their first aid,

AED, and CPR training. And that really helps, especially in the lay community that's volunteers helping.

Your ushers and greeters, for instance, they can be, you know, in a small church, you don't have that capability or resource of having people that, you know, work in an

ER room every night. So your ushers and greeters and people that are volunteers in the church are your frontline people.

So at least they can grab somebody and grab 911 and call 911 as they're taking the person out to try to administer to them or find out what's going on.

You'd be surprised when you talk to people. You know, I'm not a medical professional, but I'll sit down if I'm the first one there and said, hey, can you tell me what's going on?

And yeah, I just feel lightheaded. So I always ask, did you eat your breakfast this morning?

Did you take your medication? And you'd be surprised when they say, oh, I skipped breakfast or I forgot my medication.

Well, I'm a diabetic and my sugar is low. Those are key indicators of quickly what you need to do when you call 911.

You can tell them what's going on. So they come prepared for that. But get training, get the

CPR, AED and first aid certified and try to find somebody in the congregation that is a medical background or has been a nurse.

At least that will start somewhere. Well, we are going to go to our first commercial break right now.

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So go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We are now back with Ron Aguiar, and we have a listener question who is remaining anonymous, and the anonymous listener says,

I don't know if you covered this in part one of your discussion of keeping your church safe, but I was wondering how you prepare a church from protecting the congregation and perhaps especially the children from sexual predators.

Yeah, I think you gotta, we did not cover much of that in the first session, so let me start by saying that, first of all, children are dropped off at your church with the understanding that they'll be protected by their, you know, by you.

There are reports, of course, that show up in the media from time to time that children have been sexually abused at churches or parachurch organizations, camps or whatever.

And so there are some steps to take. First of all, your volunteers, all of your volunteers should be background cleared, use a reputable company.

There are some out there, and there's a bunch of them, Protect My Ministry, Ministry Safe, I can go on and on.

And do they involve the FBI and other law enforcement agencies?

You know, it's interesting, Chris, that's a good question. And I'm going to give a little history.

When J. Edgar Hoover was alive, of all people, he required every police report, a copy of every police report sent to the

FBI. After he died and after he left the FBI agency, the

FBI agency does not require every report to be sent to them anymore, just certain classifications, homicide and things of that nature.

So there are not a repository that can get good information.

But if you use a reputable company, they will search out and check the national database for crime.

They'll check the national sex offender registry and also check your local state registry for sex offenders.

So those companies all have that connection to do that. Now, that's the first step.

Get everyone, including, you know, when I came on staff, there was nobody doing what

I had done in the church. I'd been in existence, of course, for 30 years. And there was some folks that had been watching kids for 20 plus years.

And when I came in, I said, I'm going to do background checks on everybody. And there was some pushback. I can remember this one lady,

Aunt Jane, let's call her. And I had worried that she was not going to submit it to a background check.

So I met with Aunt Jane. I went down there one Sunday morning and I sat down and talked to her. I said, what's the problem?

She goes, you know, I'm 70 some odd years old and I haven't done anything in my life and I don't think

I should do this. And I told her, I said, do you really care about the safety of the children? And she goes, of course

I do. I said, well, not everyone has been here 20 years. We're going to have some new people come in that have been with the church for six months or so.

So if you could permit me to run your information and background check, you will set the example for everyone.

And that means that no one can say that they did not, they were forced to do this and not everyone was able to do this.

So consequently, I'm going to say, if you will set the example, then that will help the children.

And she did. So that started the ball rolling, but get a good reputable background check from a company that's out there that can do that.

You may want to call your insurance company for any references. They may have a company that they work with already in other parts and other industry.

Use them if they say so. And some insurance companies will actually pay for the background checks. Those checks can be as little as 15, as much as $30 a piece.

So be prepared for that. You want somebody that's working with the children that's been with the church for a while.

And when you're hurting for people and you don't have a lot of people, you're going to want to put somebody in there really quickly.

But please understand that pedophiles and people that want to harm children want to get to the children quickly.

If you allow somebody to come in a couple of weeks, they've been attending church and they want to work with the children.

If you allow them to do that, you're opening yourself up for trouble. Be prepared to say no.

The bigger the church, I think the longer the period. I think you should have at least maybe a three -month window.

The pedophile will go somewhere else. You don't want them to hurt any children on your campus.

Do that. Have a waiting period for people that want to work with your children.

The other thing you want to do is you want to have a child -adult ratio that makes sense.

You don't want to have one person with 20 children in a classroom. My suggestion is call your state agency that handles child care, and they'll have child care adult -child ratios for child care centers.

Use that as a starting point. You may want to even get a little tougher than that. Use a child -adult ratio that makes sense.

There's another suggestion, and I know small churches are hard to do this, but don't have relatives work in the same room.

A husband -and -wife team, you have no idea that they could conspire or one does something harmful to a child and the other one is afraid to say anything.

Try not to have relatives that work in the same room. Really stick by the fact that only cleared volunteers can work in a children.

Don't allow someone to bring an adult child, for instance, to help out on a weekend that has not been cleared.

That's something that you need to take care of. Also, when someone has been cleared background check, make sure you talk to them, interview them before you put them in place.

You've got a waiting period now. You've got a background check, and now you've got a personal interview. Don't do it on the phone. Do it face -to -face.

Then allow them to shadow somebody in the children's area for a couple of weeks at least so they know what they're doing and what's expected of them.

You have children from newborn to fifth grade. Most children's ministry operate in that venue, so be prepared to operate differently.

Some people just don't want the infants. Other people love the infants. Have that separated.

Make sure during the interview process you find what their gifts are so you can properly place them.

So just be aware of that. And also remember we talked about first aid,

CPR, AED certified. Make sure they are so they can take care of the children. Another thing that comes up is

I've got a child in the child care ministry. I walk down the hallway, and I start taking pictures of my child.

You may want to stop that because those pictures will immediately get on the Internet. They can take pictures of their own child, but no other children.

That should be a rule in place. And another thing you should do if you're putting security systems in the building, cameras and things of that nature, you need a camera in every room, including the little ones.

And I'll give you example of example where people have abused people, abused children in a church setting and not being able to be found out.

And one of the reasons, no cameras. I'll give you a perfect example where someone abused a child in a church setting, toddler.

And I encourage church ministers to put what they call Dutch doors, those half doors in, so you can always see in, especially in the toddler and little kids area.

And he took a child to a bathroom, closed the Dutch door. You could still see him in it, but you didn't know what he was doing.

And consequently, some children told their parents he had abused a child, and they had video that had been stored for 90 days, which is unusual, but they had.

And so he went to prison for a long time. Wow. And so, yeah,

I mean, people don't want to put cameras in the children's area. I'm a big advocate, put them in all rooms, including the adult

Bible class, I mean, wherever. Now, why wouldn't a church want to put cameras in the child area?

Well, they think the law says you can't videotape people changing and things of that nature.

That is true in an adult setting. You cannot put any cameras in your bathrooms or lockers or changing areas.

But in a children's area, you are allowed. And you can put a camera up in the corner of your classroom or room where the kids are.

There are so many reasons, first of all, to protect the children, but also to protect the adults that are taking care of the children from false accusations.

Right. So those cameras are really an important part. They may not catch exactly what's happening at that time, but they're a good fallback position to see what has occurred.

So that's a good tool to have. And the bad guys know the cameras are up there. And when they see the camera, they won't do anything in front of the camera.

So I think that's a really big issue. I think we need to tell people that that's part of it.

And by the way, Anonymous, if you email me your full name and mailing address, you will receive a free copy of Keeping Your Church Safe by Ron Aguiar, compliments of Ron Aguiar and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

who will ship that book out to you at no charge to you or to ION Trip and Zion Radio.

Speaking of this horrific, all too often occurring issue regarding pedophiles,

I have heard from different news stories and documentaries that those kinds of things, most often happen with people with whom the children are familiar, not with total strangers.

So how what's a way to further protect the children in a congregation, even with people that you might never expect that might be doing that?

There may be people who have no record of doing this in their criminal history because they may have succeeded in remaining under the radar.

They may have never been. They may have never been arrested for it. And, you know, there's a catch 22 here because you definitely never want to bear false witness against someone and slander someone.

When you're not 100 percent positive that they may be involved in something like that.

But then it's too late. They've already done it. And that is the worst thing.

I think you could accuse someone. And so they better be guilty if you're accusing them.

I think I would be rather accused of murder than that. So give us some more counsel on that.

Sure. First, let me say that one in four girls and one in six boys by the time they're 18 have been sexually abused.

Wow. That's a staggering number, but that's the number they're using. The CDC has come out with that.

That's the average that everybody's using. And that's seen one out of four girls and one out of six boys.

It's incredible. Yeah, it is incredible. And with today's media and social media,

I should say, there's more and more of that occurring. One of the largest areas and of sexual abuse that's occurring is familiar or family where a brother, a stepbrother, a uncle.

You mentioned being familiar with the child. Most sexual abuse occurs from someone they know and are fairly close to.

The stranger danger thing is a thing of the past. It's all who they know now.

And these groomers, we call them groomers because that's what they're doing. They're grooming the child or they could even groom the parent.

And I'll give you the perfect example. Say I am a pedophile.

I've not never been arrested. I'm married. Got some kids. And that's a profile. There's a big group of them.

And I'm a coach. That's where I meet the kids. I'm a coach on the age group that I want to abuse.

And abusers have age groups. They have five years, nine, 10, 15, whatever the case may be.

So I am a baseball coach of a little league team that has boys 8 to 10 years or 8 to 11 or whatever.

And I'm in a city that has no major league team. And I have become friends with the kids and with the parents.

They know me from the community. They know that I coach, but they don't know my secret. And so what happens is

I'll start grooming the child and the child becomes a friend with mine, which is great. Then I'll start grooming the parents about how great

I am. There's always ways to interweave. Oh, man, I'm just I love your kid. Your kid's a great baseball player.

He's going to grow up to be a major league, whatever the case may be. And then they'll become a time where I'll come to the parents and I'll say,

I want to take Junior along with four or five other guys. And we're going to go to the adjoining large city.

It's about a couple hours away. And we're going to watch a major league baseball game. But because if it's a night game,

I have to spend the night. So I'm asking your permission where I can take the boys and spend the night in a hotel room.

And the parents will be going, sure, go ahead, take them. So I take the kids. I spend a weekend.

We go and spend Friday night. We go to the game. We spend the night in the hotel. Nothing happens.

I talk to the kids. I find out which kid is more susceptible.

Probably. There's sometimes usually a kid on the edge or fringe of other children or someone that's looking for love.

Maybe he's got a single parent. Maybe he's just he's an outsider. I find that kid. So we go back.

Nothing happens. And a couple of weeks later, I went to go to the parents again and say, I want to take

Junior again. There's a great game coming up, you know, coming to the town. And I want to go and spend the night.

And they said, sure. This time I take only him. And we go. And he says, where's the other guys?

Well, don't tell them. It's a secret. We're going to have a great time. Train your children or grandchildren.

What are good secrets and bad secrets? They know what a bad and good secret is. They'll tell you when somebody says, keep this is a secret and it's not a good secret.

So you'll take the child and he'll start grooming him. He may offer the kid alcohol.

He may put a porn movie in. He may start that way.

He may not push to the sexual abuse too far unless the child is willing or he coerces the child.

The sexual abuse may occur. And then the same thing going back home. Don't tell your parents. It's a secret. If you do, I'm going to tell them and you're going to get in big trouble.

So he may do that. And that'll start his process of becoming an abuser for that child.

And that's a way that they do it. I've got a friend who who told me, he says,

Ron, he said, I, I treat my children. My neighbor knows me for 20 years. He can come over, borrow my lawnmower.

He can watch my house during vacation. I watch his. I do all of that. But if Charlie comes over and he said, listen,

I'm going to soccer game out of town, I want to take the two kids. And I look at him and say, no, the kids may cry and scream and put up.

But the fact of the matter is I got to protect my children. You cannot allow this stuff to happen. By the time somebody is arrested for abusing a child, then they have committed about 50 abuses.

So and abuse now is starting earlier and earlier. The problem with children getting abused is they start abusing other children in a couple of years because they don't know differently.

So those are the things you got to be very, very careful about. So we talked about this grooming and that goes a long way.

I had I was in an airport in Charlotte for a late night flight going back home once.

And this young this gentleman came up to me, says, hey, my wife and two kids came from a

Eastern European refugee camp. We did some ministry work out there for a month. And we had been to one of your classes because I had taught classes.

I openly taught child sexual abuse prevention to members of the church besides all the staff.

And he told me, he says, two days into it, we spotted the predator just based on what you were saying and how he was grooming the children.

We reported him to the camp directors. And sure enough, he was.

So they kicked him out of camp and got along with it. But he wanted to thank me for just educating them on the fact that these things happen and how the grooming works.

There was a one of the worst cases that ever happened in Europe. I was a young man in England who went to the poor areas and refugee camps.

He carried a Bible and told them that he wanted to teach the kids to read Bibles.

And so the parents would love the children to go. And by the time they caught him, he had abused hundreds.

The number is just staggering. So they're out there. There was a pastor.

I'm not going to tell you where from the Midwest who called me once. And he said, Ron, I got a problem. I said, sure.

And this has been years ago. He said, you know, that that show they did on TV where with the catcher predator, where a guy would come thinking he's meeting a 14 year old girl at a house.

And it turns out to be an actress and the cameras are rolling. Right. He said they caught my youth minister last night.

Wow. Yeah, that's what that's what I said. So I said, oh, my.

What happened? He said, well, they caught him and arrested him. Of course, I find out about this late last night.

So I'm calling you to talk about it. And mind you, he had called me the month before.

No kidding, Chris, the month before and asked me about security programs and stuff. And I told him about this whole thing about children protection.

So he ran background checks on all of his people, including this youth minister. No hits, no arrests.

So then this happens. He says, what do I do? I said, well, you got to cooperate. Police had them come in and tell them what you've done.

You know, he pulled all the background checks that he's never been arrested before and all this. And then he had a congregational meeting.

He sent out a message the next day for that night. He wanted the congregational meeting the next the next evening to tell them exactly what happened and to answer the tough questions.

But he was prepared because he had done all of his homework. He had called the references on this guy.

He had done background checks. He called the last church that this guy was employed at.

All of this. So he said, you know, it worked out. There were tough questions.

I answered them, but it didn't work out. He was prepared. But can you imagine if none of that was done?

This guy gets arrested. He'd be out of his job. The pastor would be kicked out of town. So, yeah,

I mean, so it does happen. But you got to be prepared and you got to understand that you got to keep these guys away from your children.

The one big pushback I get from church. In fact, did you pick up right where you left off? And don't forget.

Oh, sure. Don't forget where you left off because we have to go to our midway break. And please be patient with us, folks, as the midway break is always longer than the other breaks.

So please use this time wisely. Try to write down as much of the contact information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

Keeping in mind that their finances is what keeps Iron Trip and Zion Radio on the air.

But also send in your questions to Ron Aguiar, to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Give his first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, and before we return to our conversation with Ron Aguiar, I have a couple of important announcements to make.

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It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And Ron, you were just about to tell a story that was connected to pedophiles.

Yeah, one of the things that the major pushback I get from churches is this waiting period. We had talked about where I say, listen, at least a month to three months.

Give a waiting period when somebody comes to the church for the first time and wants to work with children.

They may have the gift. You may find that they've done that before. But please have a waiting period and don't wait a week or two, but more like at least a month, maybe two or three months.

Some churches require membership to work in children, and I think that's OK, too. But that's a big pushback.

But pedophiles want to get to the children quickly. If they can't, they'll leave. They'll go somewhere else. And on the reference checks, we talked about background checks.

I highly recommend you call at least three reference checks and get the information that you're seeking.

Do not put that aside. That's important as part of the background check. And the last thing

I'm going to say before we move on is that I know we talked about the cameras being placed in the classrooms.

And one of the reasons was to make sure that there were not any false accusations against teachers or volunteers.

I can say, though, with very high confidence that about 95 % of the time when a child says they've been sexually abused, they have.

You have to believe the child and work from that premise first. The church, it's not your background or necessity to investigate.

It's the authorities, even if it's just the Child Protective Services or whatever they call it in your area, have notified them and let them start the investigation.

Because if it is turns out to be viable, then they need to move on and do some criminal activity on that.

I got one bit of good information when it comes to cameras,

Chris, and that is that there is a program in the federal government called a nonprofit security grant program for nonprofit agencies.

And churches fall into this because churches are nonprofit. And with that, you can get money for cameras, security guards, maybe improve the lighting in your parking lot.

And that's all grant money. It's free. I know it's taxpayer money, but it's sitting there.

The Senate in Washington, D .C. this month added $400 million to that just for us to go.

And I checked. I called. And sure enough, the state, every state in the union has a

Homeland Security office. If you call that office and ask for someone that handles a nonprofit security grant program, usually it falls under fiscal year with the government.

But all you have to do is fill out an application, submit it, and then you're put in line to receive money.

And you'd be surprised how much money goes unused in this program. So I highly recommend if you wanted to install a security system.

I know, Chris, you had a company advertising that have security products for churches.

Yeah, this is a way to get the funding. If you're saying I don't have enough tides, guess what? The government has money.

So call your Homeland Security office in the state office and ask for this nonprofit security grant program.

And I had a guy do that. I taught a class in Florida. And he says, well, so I said, here's the actually found the lady's name.

I said, give her a call. And she was most helpful. She put him in line. She sent him a form.

She said, hey, listen, they're giving us 60 million next year. I'll get you some. So you know what?

It's there to be the taking. So if you say you don't have the money, guess what? The government has it for you. Yeah. In fact, after 9 -11, a former church where I was a member, they did that.

And because one of the factors that they were requesting the money for improving the security in the building was the fact that I was a member there.

Because I had orchestrated live public moderated debates between my friend,

Dr. James R. White, who is a world -renowned Christian apologist and Muslim apologists.

Right. And they were granted the income to improve the security of the building.

Yeah. And I've got to make sure that Brian McLaughlin, the owner of SecureCom Group, is aware of that.

He may not even be aware of that, even though he's in the security business. Right. So I'm going to make sure he knows about that.

Before I go to another listener question, you were talking earlier about, obviously, educating your children not to go on trips with coaches and things like that.

Okay. That also brings up another concept that we have to be very careful that we do not stereotype the person who is most likely to be a pedophile or a trial molester.

We may automatically, in our mind, rule out somebody that is outwardly rugged.

Right. Especially when it comes to the molestation of boys. Yes. We may never think that a coach, a martial arts instructor, somebody like that would ever do such a thing.

But obviously, a case that became globally known, right here in Pennsylvania, Penn State, where the assistant coach for their football team, the

Nittany Lions, Jerry Sandusky, was indicted on 52 counts of child molestation stemming from incidents that occurred between 1994 and 2009.

And he was ultimately convicted on 45 counts of child abuse and sentenced to a minimum of 30 years and a maximum of 60 years in prison.

But that is something that we have to keep in mind when preparing ourselves to further equip our children not to be victims.

We can't be caught up in stereotypes, can we? No. And the coaches and people in authority will use that authority on the child.

And so, you know, when you look back and you're 8, 9, 10 years old, that's a big deal to have a coach really take interest in you or someone, not necessarily a coach, but someone in your life that takes interest in you.

And then all of a sudden, they use that authority and in a bad way. So that can happen.

At the same token, when I when I talk to youth ministers, they always tell me they said, well,

I'm finding the child on the edges and the fringes. Those are the kids that I minister to. And how do you deal with that?

And I said, well, you know, you can console them never in a closed room.

If you're going to console them in a meeting, you know, children's worship or something or, you know, middle school worship or something.

You got them in the corner and you're talking to them. That's fine. If you're going to do any more counseling, you're going to meet in the coffee shop or whatever.

Have somebody with you. Don't do this one on one stuff. And you get in trouble.

We had a what we call

Bible and Beach, and I believe the church still does it and a lot of youth. So we had approximately,

I'm saying 600 students in high school, rising high schoolers in high school that we took to the beach for a week and had about 400 adults as chaperones.

And I met with the adults before the trip and told them and gave them information about preventing sexual abuse.

And, you know, they minister to these kids. They meet with them one on one. That's their forte. And I tell them,

I said, that's great. But now that we all in this room know what we're looking for, we're going to be watching you when you minister to the children.

We're going to watch each other. We're going to protect each other. We're going to make sure we don't stumble. So if you're ministering with a child, you can't meet that child on the beach at 11 o 'clock at night.

You just can't. You got to do it at 10 in the morning on the side of the pool when somebody's close by.

So those have some parameters when you do that, especially in ministry, because we're all human beings and we stumble at times.

And we don't want our young people stumbling. And these are college students usually that minister to these kids and, you know, as a volunteer.

And so we just want to be careful there. So these kids are protected as well as the students from stumbling and creating a problem.

So but, yes, there is stereotypical. You just don't know anymore. You can't cross section any group anymore as to who the predator is.

And I have a friend who was abused from the time they could remember.

And it was a family member. And it's sad because that family member used their ability to get to the child during the whole child's formative years and with threats and with other things.

So the child never said anything. And a lot of times, probably about 25 % or more of the adults that were abused that children never say anything about it and never reported.

And it's a shame that happens because they carry this with them. It's a it's really a big issue in their lives.

And sometimes they need counseling. They never go to it. When I taught this class, I may have mentioned this in the first program.

But when I taught our class that went to Bible and Beach of all the college students and the ministers, the adults,

I would tell them about this. And I say, listen, let me tell you some facts and figures.

And when I started talking about that, you could see a few people start sniffling. And there was some, you know, some really upset people in the group.

So at the end of the meeting, I would always take a break. And I had a counselor, one for the men, one for the girls in the back.

I said, if you've never spoken to anybody or if you need help with this product or this subject, please talk to them on the way out.

And, you know, there was always a bunch of kids that would meet with them. They're concerned, first of all. Some of them have been abused and have never told anybody about that.

They want to get that off their chest and they want to just get back with their life without that hanging over them.

So there's a lot of that going on. So understand that the profile is very wide and broad, not necessarily one particular age group, not ethnic, doesn't matter, anything of that nature.

It's just the accessibility to the children. Just be aware of that. And with social media, if you're a parent or a grandparent, you've got to watch that phone.

You've got to watch that iPad, who they're talking to and what they're saying. You should have total access to your children or grandchildren's iPhones and iPads.

There should be no pushback. They should immediately give it to you. And you should be able to scroll through and see everything that they've written, said or sent pictures of or received, because that's where it starts in social media right now.

Understanding that the boys, they want that man figure when they're traveling.

You know, they want alcohol is a big deal for them. Pornography is a big deal for the for the boys. Girls, they want love.

They want the flowers. They want all this nice thing. So that's what gets the girls initially.

So those are the things you've got to be aware of that happens to these children when they're young and very influential.

So unlike what the media tells us, there is a difference between boys and girls. Absolutely. Yes.

We have Georgie in Ilandia, New York, who said, I heard you say something earlier about not allowing a neighbor to take your kids out for a trip somewhere, even if it's not overnight.

Is that going too far? Well, I'm not saying not overnight. I just I'm overnight is what

I was really focused on. OK, but at the same token, I mean, if they want to go down the street for an ice cream or something,

I think that's fine. As long as my kids have been told. Again, I go back to the good secret, bad secrets.

You know, my kids know that someone should not touch you here. Someone should not say this. If someone tells you they want you to keep this secret, you're going to have to tell mom or dad when you come back.

You got to. And so and if the and if your neighbor starts making it a habit, all of a sudden he creates a lot of interest in your child.

Time out. You know, you got to take a break. Another thing to watch for is children are really good at this, especially the young youngsters.

There will be a reaction or constant or reaction to the abuse.

Children will say, say your neighbor grooms you, grooms the child and eventually abuses the child.

The next time they call to pick the child up, the child hides in his bedroom, shuts the door. Wow. That is a big deal.

Don't think that he's having a bad day. Close the door. Talk to him. Find out what's going on.

That's an indicator that this child doesn't want to go with this adult for some reason. And a lot of times it's either he's hurting the child or abusing the child.

So that's an indicator. Another indicator is a child all of a sudden becomes a loner, may start hurting themselves, may get angry very quickly.

All those things happen. The child's whole demeanor changes immediately. You really need to investigate.

Grab the phone. Grab the iPad. Ask the right questions. I have someone

I know that when that occurred, she took the child to a counselor.

And guess what? Within a few sessions, we found out that there was an abuser in their family. So you can just look at the signs.

When your child, and I understand the 12, 13, 14 -year -olds, now it's a little younger. They start acting different because of their age, and they're going through some changes.

I understand that. But I'm talking about radical change. I'm talking about all of a sudden there's something crazy going on, or the schoolwork all of a sudden drops from A's to F's.

You've got to find out, and you may have to take them to a counselor to find out. Now, since you have mentioned the high percentage of molestation victims are the victims of family members.

Yeah. That same issue that the listener Georgie in New York asked about, about the neighbor.

Well, what are the parameters when a close family member says, hey,

I want to take your sons out to the ballgame, or I want to take your daughters out here or there?

What are the circumstances when a parent should say, sure, go ahead.

Well, I think it falls back. Make believe he's not a family member. What would you do?

So I know it may hurt some feelings, but at the same token, hey, Uncle John, you just can't take them over for an overnight camping trip.

Or you can't, you know, I know you love your niece. Or you may suddenly all of a sudden go on the trips with them, you know, just to protect your child.

I can't tell you. It is such a big deal because I've talked to victims that I've talked to children and I've talked to adults.

This is life changing. So if you make a mistake by being a little more careful, so be it.

So be it. Protect the child. It's just unbelievable the horrors that occur when a child is abused.

And if it's not addressed or it doesn't say anything, a lot of those children grow up to be abusers too.

And it just creates a monster chain reaction from an incident that occurred.

And so you know what? When I was security director at the church, if I'm a little bit more careful than normal, so be it.

I'm always erring on the side of caution. If uncle all of a sudden wants to take his niece to ice cream three, four times a week, you know what?

I'm going to go too. I like ice cream. I mean, it's just, you know, you got to figure out how to do it and protect your children.

And sometimes the kids will get upset with you. And they said, I don't know why you're doing this. I should be able to go with Johnny and his friends overnight or whatever.

You know what? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. When you're 18, you'll understand. But until then,

I'm going to watch over you. Now, is there an extra level of caution in those areas that should be used when it comes to a male family member over a female?

I'm not saying that women never molest children. In fact, we're hearing more and more about it astonishingly.

But when you hear about a woman doing it, it is typically much more shocking than when you hear about a man doing it.

It's just it are statistically women far less involved in these crimes.

Yeah, there still are. I mean, most of the men met a male crime, but there are women. It's being increased.

And, you know, the interesting thing, Chris, is that they did a study and you take a guy.

So I'm just going to use this as an example. You take a guy that molest a 12 year old boy and he's arrested and he goes to court.

And the end result, he gets 20 years in prison. You take a female and she could have access to the child a number of different ways.

And you hear a lot about the teachers right now. You take a female who molest a 12 year old boy.

She gets arrested. She goes to court. Her sentence is typically one to three years.

And the juries all do that, too. They say, well, she can't be that bad. And he's a boy, probably like that.

And I mean, it's just insane. The sentencing guidelines are way off.

And they don't treat the woman like they treat the guy. But at the same token, there's still a predator.

The girls are still a predator. The woman's still a predator. And just like the man, by the time he's arrested, 50 he's abused.

By the time a woman's arrested, she's abused at least 30. So, yeah, they're just, you know, they're breaking the law.

And they're an abuser just as bad as guys. But at the same time, do you think that parents can let their guards down at any level when a female family member wants to take the kids out somewhere?

No, I don't think so. But I think you treat everybody equal. But here's the deal.

Most babysitters are girls. Just the way it happens. Yep. If I got an adult at church who's married, got kids, and I'm a neighbor, and I got kids, and my wife and I going out for dinner, and I can't find a babysitter.

And I go next door, and I said, hey, would one of you want to watch kids? And John goes, yeah, I'll watch kids.

So he comes over, and he watches the kids, and he bathes them and stuff like that. I was involved in a case where that exact example

I said happened. All church members, and the neighbor abused the two boys. So you just got to be careful.

Even on the babysitting front, I mean, all of that, the young lady who comes over to babysit your child, and you say,

I have a long set of references. You probably need to know the family. I mean, all that stuff. It goes on and on.

Yeah, guys and girls, if my sister wants to take my kids out for ice cream, sure.

I know her really well. I've known her for 30 years. There's nothing in her that would cause me to believe that she's going to abuse anybody.

But at the same token, if she does it three times a week, I'm going to have ice cream too. So you just don't know.

But just be careful and err on the side of caution. And don't be so crazy that somebody says,

I want to take an ice cream, and you jump up and down. You can't do that. I'm protecting my children. I don't think you have to be that crazy. But at the same token, just be wise.

Just be wise. The devil prowls, and we don't want him in our midst. And I'm assuming when it comes to the babysitting issue that you would advise people to have nanny cams.

Oh, absolutely. My son is expecting his first child in about less than a month away.

And, you know, they call me Captain Safety because I'm kind of on that end. But he said,

Dad, I've got a camera coming in. I've got an ankle bracelet for the child.

If the child moves, breathes, I said, Son, are you going? He said, No, Dad. I want to know about the window to the room.

How can I secure that from the outside? He's funny. But, yeah, the parents nowadays have all these nanny cams and, you know, volume stuff.

They can listen to the kids. So, yeah, they're concerned just not only for the safety but also for the security of the child in the room.

Okay. We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio. And Cindy's got a two -part question.

We may have to take one before the last break and the other part after we can come back from the last break.

Okay. But Cindy says, Good evening, Ron and Chris. This question may have already been asked, so forgive me if that is the case.

This is actually a two -part question. Firstly, in those states where concealed carry or open carry is legal, what is the general consensus of church leadership regarding members or attendees who may be armed?

Do they generally consider it a positive and helpful thing, or are they somewhat cautious?

And we'll have you deal with that first, and then we'll have you respond to her second part after the break.

Okay. First, it depends on the church and the church leadership. Some churches allow weapons.

They embrace it. They said, Sure, come on. And that's what they do.

But here's the issue that you've got to be worried about. If I'm a security guy in a church and I am carrying a weapon, and if somebody gets up in the congregation, like just happened in Pittsburgh, I mean, happened in Pennsylvania the other day, and points a gun at the pastor, and somebody else gets up with a gun that is not part of the security team,

I don't know if he's a good guy or bad guy. And people may get hurt in the crossfire.

The bad guy may not even get hurt. I mean, it becomes a problem. So I'm a big advocate of knowing what guns are in the churches.

So in our church, we didn't allow guns in the churches. If we knew that someone was carrying, we asked him to put him in the car.

And the reason is because, again, if I'm a security guy and I pull my weapon, I don't want people shooting at me.

I don't want to shoot them. I want to shoot the bad guy. But there are some churches that just allow it.

I've been in the eastern Kentucky holding classes in the hollers,

I mean, just really out there. And everybody carries a gun that goes to church. It's just the way it is.

Well, you're more firmly discouraging it when there is an armed security team in place.

Yes, yes, absolutely, because then the armed security people are in jeopardy also. Like these churches out in the middle of nowhere, and, you know, they want some help.

So I don't have a security team. So, you know, John, James, Jimmy, you all carry guns?

Great. Make sure you wear them to church. So, I mean, some of them do that. Yeah. A little over 100 years ago, it was common for school teachers to be mandated to carry a weapon.

Right. So, but things sure have changed. But we'll—Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, we'll get to your second part of the question after we return from our final break.

Don't go away. We'll be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net

That's hopereformedli .net Or call 631 -696 -5711

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

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Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CBBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

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That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them

Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.

Welcome back. Folks, I just want to remind you that if you're a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next free biannual

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon with our keynote speaker for the very first time,

Dr. Joel Beakey, founder and president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Not only is admission free and your lunch free, but every attendee is going to receive a free heavy sack, maybe even two heavy sacks, of brand new books, personally selected by me and donated by generous

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That's ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line.

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We are now back and we have the second part of the two -part question submitted to us by Cindy in Finley, Ohio.

How do the courts generally treat instances where a church member or attendee may act in a defensive manner when being attacked by a perpetrator?

Do they show any bias against the defensive act because it occurs in a church setting?

Cindy, that's a good question. The answer is 99 .9 % of the time, no.

They treat them just like everybody else. The question will be is what reasonable force was used to end the violence because that's what it's coming down to.

If someone has a gun like they did this past week, pointed at the pastor, am I reasonable to assume that I have to stop that person from killing the pastor?

Yes. How did I do that? In some cases, you may have to shoot somebody. I'm not saying you do, but you may have to.

In some cases like they did this past week, he tackled the gentleman. Whatever it is, the courts normally look at what's reasonable.

I always say reasonable because that's what the jury will look at. Is it reasonable to assume when somebody comes up and yells at the pastor you take your gun out and shoot them?

That's unreasonable. Of course, you're going to be in trouble. Again, if someone comes up and yells at the pastor, what's reasonable?

It's reasonable to get up there, put your arm on his elbow, and ask him to leave.

If he becomes violent, then it's reasonable to subdue him, not to do any more.

That's what it comes down to. That's how the courts look at it. Well, Cindy, you have won a free copy of the book,

Keeping Your Church Safe. I would strongly advise that after you finish with it that you give it to one of your elders so that they may also put into place the recommendations of the book in your church.

I really want to make sure that you summarize the things that you most want our listeners to remember, that you most want etched in their hearts and minds before this program is over.

Well, first of all, the medical team always has somebody in place to respond to that.

Secondly, the children always err on the side of caution. Always err on the side of caution.

If you think you should do something, do it. Trust that the Lord will show you the right way to do it.

Pray, protect your children, protect your congregation, use the tools and references that you have.

My book goes into a lot more than what we talked about today and covers everything, what

I said and more, and I highly recommend it. Oh, and that reminds me, Cindy, in Philly, Ohio, you should listen to Part 1 of this discussion that we conducted on February 7th.

Just type in A -G -U -I -A -R Well, that's Ron Aguiar's last name in the search engine at irontrepanzionradio .com

and that will come up because he addressed predominantly in the first part areas that you asked about.

So, make sure you do that. Let's see, we do have time for another, at least one, listener question.

We have Toby in Great Neck, New York and Toby asks,

What have been some of the bad results that you have heard of or perhaps even experienced personally when security issues were mishandled by church members and they were in the wrong?

It's overreaction. At times, there's overreaction. Someone gets up and yells and screams and instead of escorting them out, they tackle them.

They hurt them and overreact. That's the one thing you never want to do and that's what you hear.

When that happens, then of course there's a consequence to your actions.

The police will get involved. You get arrested. Those are the things that you got to be careful about. There was a shooting in Texas where a member of the congregation got up and shot a guy who had just shot two of his parishioners.

Again, that was reasonable. He didn't fall into any trouble there. Understand every time you use your weapon that the police are going to confiscate it.

They're going to question you in depth. I highly recommend I don't care who you are to get an attorney involved quickly because then you can protect yourself and the police will not overreact to what witnesses or bystanders may say.

In today's society, everybody takes their cell phone out and videotapes everything but you still want an attorney present during the major questioning that may occur if you're involved in a shooting or anything of that nature.

Okay, Toby, and get us your full mailing address because you've also won a free copy of Keeping Your Church Safe.

Compliments of my guest Ron Aguiar and compliments of the

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com. We'll be shipping that out to you. We do have time for one more question.

Let's see. We have Alexandria in Fredericksburg, Virginia and the question is when it comes to attacks on houses of worship here in the

United States, are churches the more prominent targets or do they come in second or third place to other houses of worship like synagogues and mosques?

Primarily it's been churches and there's a reason for that. The synagogues and mosques take this stuff really seriously.

Their security is always ramped up. So the bad guys know that. So if they're going to cause harm in a mosque or synagogue they're going to have to figure a way around.

The shooting in, I think it was Pittsburgh a few years back at the synagogue, they did not have good security.

I mean I wasn't there. This is what I understand. And so the guy got in the building and shot and killed some people before he was subdued by the police.

But if you have security, you're part of what we call a hardened target. You're not a soft target.

There are many, many, many churches. There's 400 ,000 some odd churches in the United States, many of which have no security yet.

And so they're soft targets. But the mosque and synagogues, because of what's happened in the world, are usually well protected by security.

Well, thank you, Alexandria. And you have also won a free copy of Keeping Your Church Safe.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com can ship that out to you.

Well, I want to thank you, Ron, for doing another excellent job on the show. And I want to remind our listeners that your website is

OasisSafety .com OasisSafety .com OasisSafety .com Make sure you put those two

S's together, because sometimes when there's two letters together, people forget to do that. OasisSafety .com

And I want to thank everybody who listened today. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater