The Theological & Apologetic Significance of Jonathan Edwards w/Jeffery Waddington

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host Eli Ayala and today we're gonna be talking about Jonathan Edwards But before we jump in with my good friend

Jeffrey Waddington Who I'm very excited that we're able to get him back on and connect I was just talking to Jeff before the before we went live that I really enjoy his bitmojis

He sends me in the morning very very encouraging and funny And so I appreciate him as a brother and looking forward to this discussion

But before we jump into the discussion, I want to let folks know that I had plans to have dr

James White on to talk about Mormonism and that fell through because of James busy schedule and so we're gonna have him on the plan is to have him back on next week

I think it's either Monday or Tuesday. I double -checked but you check my social media. I'll keep folks folks updated on On that I'm also working on Chapter 2 of this

Vantil and the use of evidence You kind of scroll through my old episodes I actually have a teaching on chapter 1 and I'm going to work my way through I'm almost done with the outline for chapter 2 and I'm just gonna work my way through it

Because this is a super a super good book. It's short and A lot of good nuggets in here and it's just not available

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All right Well, I want to introduce my good friend Jeffrey obi -wan Waddington welcome back to revealed apologetics, man.

Oh, it's good to be back with you, brother excited about what you're do predict the content you're producing for The web getting getting dr.

Van Til's approach to apologetics out to a broader audience

And it's just to remind folks that we're talking about Edwards But but but I'm also a

Vantillian there are a few of us Who are students of Edwards who are also Vantillian's maybe a small group, but it's we are we are here

Anyway, just wanted to get that On the table that I am a Vantillian by conviction

Excellent. Now, would you would you say you're like a purist Vantillian or there? What is there maybe like one or two areas you might disagree with him on?

I'm going to be working as a matter of fact, I'm going to be looking at his

Paper that he wrote as a student at Princeton on the will and his theological relations

Where he has a section where I believe he critiques Edwards on freedom of the will how he argues it

He's not critiquing the the point of the argument, but right the method he uses.

I Yeah, well part of the works of Vantill That that are available through logos.

Mm -hmm. So there but there may there may be An online version of it out there bootleg version someone put out

It probably could find it at Princeton And I don't remember if it's the seminary or if it's the

University sure Could be although now that I say that I think it was written under CW Hodge, so it was probably the seminary.

Mm -hmm. Okay. He got a he got a prize for writing it. That's awesome Yeah, he's pretty sharp, dude

Whether you agree with him or not. He's a sharp, dude It's sad that a lot of critics of Vantill who kind of take kind of them from far away

They throw stones from far away. Don't really know. No, no, I I'm convinced of dr.

Vantill. I appreciate Probably close to being a purist although I appreciate

Bonson in frame Poitras and My good brother

Lane Tipton Brothers like that who are who have and are doing a building on his work, right?

like any Theologian from the past they they can't say everything.

So that's right. That's right And and so it's good to see you know, what? What he taking his insights and expanding right or extending them, right?

All right out so that that's a good thing. And and I think that's probably what you're doing at a

Also And that's important no, no, you know never never we

All want to be humble Right want to be we need to be self -aware sober whatever language you want to use wise in our self assessments, but but we don't want to be little the gifts that God has given us and the opportunities that he provides in his

Providence to Use those gifts that he's given us so you brother are gifted

And it's I appreciate what you do and and there are many many others who do as well.

So that's it Well, thank you very much. I very much appreciate that. And so Yeah, well, well, let's jump right into this then

Jonathan Edwards is When if you don't know about Jonathan Edwards this is one thing that most people hear from far away when they haven't read him or anything that he is one of if not the greatest theologian that the

America has ever produced So I hear that all the time. So here in on American soil

He was top -notch brilliant folks who disagree with him will acknowledge his brilliance

And of course those who agree with him will sing his praises forevermore, right? So why don't we get into kind of the basics here?

So can you explain for us who was Jonathan Edwards and why is he?

Important in the history of thought right? Well, John Jonathan Edwards was a

American Puritan Reformed or Calvinist a congregational pastor theologian

He served for many years at the church in Northampton, Massachusetts The colony of Massachusetts he predates the

American War for Independence So and then he served for seven seven years in Stockbridge Massachusetts best known for being the home of the artist

Norman Rockwell at a later period of time and Then he spent all of a month and a half or thereabouts as president of what is now

Princeton University Ended up getting a smallpox inoculation and instead of being

Inoculated so to speak he was he contracted the disease and died from it.

Oh, wow Okay, so he when he passed Yeah, he was born in October of 1703 and he died in March of 1758 so what does that put in that 55?

Something like that. I'm not good at math. I could do philosophy and theology simple math just goes By three years

Okay I'm used to brother. I'm used to studying theologians and people of note in history who were older than me

But now I have to recognize that many of these guys

When they you know when they became When they hit their stride were younger than me

So yes Edwards was 54 55 when he died I guess he was 54 because it was he would have turned 55 in October at 58.

Yeah, so Young so he was that's pretty young. Yeah, he was you know by our standards assuredly and so Now understand that that That that Edwards Followed his grandfather as pastor of the church the

Congregational Church in Northampton And his grandfather had served for 60 plus years

His grandfather was Solomon's daughter who was himself a well -known reformed pastor theologian in New England or actually

Over in the old world as well. In fact, he was called the Pope of the

Connecticut River Valley Okay. Yeah, so And Edwards father who was also a pastor

Timothy Edwards was pastor in the East Windsor, Connecticut Congregational Church for over 60 years.

So this is back at the time where the average pastor stayed For life

At the first church to which he was called, right? There was a consistency back then a dedication there was which we do not have now

The last the last time I looked into the topic the average the average

Lengths of stay for a pastor in an evangelical churches two years. Hmm.

Well, you got we got John MacArthur He's been there for he's a dinosaur now, right? Yeah, I mean you're right

One of my predecessors that my previous Congregation served for 44 years.

So yeah, it's still possible Just not as popular. It's just not as common, right?

Yeah, which is too bad because I think we we've sacrificed Something by giving that up now

Edwards, of course Spent 20 plus years in Northampton. So that's a good long stretch

But not 60 plus years He wasn't in the ministry that long sure 30.

He was in the ministry 30 plus years altogether Because he also served as a tutor

What we would call a professor At what became Yale University Okay, so he did that for two years

But he's he's best known because he he was Some people know him as a fire and brimstone

Preacher sure the sermon centers in the hands of an angry God, which he preached in Enfield Which at that point

I think was still in Massachusetts Enfield is now in Connecticut It's the same place.

It hasn't moved but the state line has okay, and the the thing is

The Last time I looked the the number of sermons that Edward preached that we were we would call fire and brimstone like centers in the hands of an

Angry God only make up about 14 % of his extant corpus of sermons

Okay and that's what and the reason why so many people know that sermon is because it's it was if not now but it was included in the typical

Anthology of American literature that is used in American high school

English classes I was so it was in the book with that when I took my

English class in 10th grade way back in 1980 Yeah, 43 years ago don't rub it in So yeah, and that's why

I would I would love to have that centers in the hands of an angry God which is an excellent sermon and Heaven is a world of love paired as two sermons in an in an

American literature anthology to see the at least another another

Side of Edwards preaching and that was the 15th and final sermon in the charity and its fruit series that you can find through a

Banner of truth has a paperback edition. It's in the two -volume banner of truth

Hendrickson set Sermons are all the sermons available.

Oh They are online at Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale University their website there are seven 71 or 70 some odd volumes of Material not just sermons what they've done is they took the 26

Volume actually, there's 27 physical volumes of the Yale edition of the critical edition of the works of Edwards And added to them

In addition to those being digitized or HTML There may be several formats, but okay email at least they've taken

Everything as far as I know everything that Edwards ever wrote whether it was published or private or semi -private is now available on a

In a searchable database at the Jonathan Edwards Center. Well, that is beautiful The technology is so helpful in that regard now now

I'm this might sound unrelated, but I'm a huge martial arts fan I grew up watching martial art movies and one of my favorite martial artist is

Bruce Lee and In an interview someone asked him a question how he wanted to be remembered

I would you want to be remembered as a movie star and he goes something like this He goes I don't want to be remembered as a star

The idea of superstar is an illusion. I want to be remembered as a human being right now

I love that because when you get past the fame of someone whether it's movies whether they're a philosopher whether they're

You know a scientist of some sort there is it there are two sides of the coin, right?

We see the public persona and then there's of course the the person as a man who they are behind the scenes

Can you tell us a little bit about how what was Jonathan Edwards like as a person?

Based upon what we know about him historically, I would imagine that obviously we have his works We have his thought his philosophies theology.

What about his character? What sort of person was he given the time he lived in in the context in which we find him?

Yes, I Don't think you would be surprised Eli if I told you that for some people he came across as rather austere and removed

And that was that was part of his personality But among friends and family, he was a very warm and outgoing individual

What do you mean by austere, what does that you you know, you know men in the faith that you've you've long admired and and they

People who like Scared to approach them.

Okay, and there is a certain there is a certain sense in which You Know your estimation of a person might fall as you get to know them

Right, and it's a wonderful thing when you can have someone who is a great in the world whether it be the church or that or the outside world

It's a great thing when you can get to know them more and hold them in even higher esteem

Getting to know them more and and I think that's the way it was with Edwards based upon What was said about him by men for instance who lived with with he and his family as As in what we would call interns

Okay, I still interns back in those days You would get your your theology your

Bachelor of Arts and then your Master of Arts and religion or theology And then you would go off and spend a year or two with a with a prominent minister live with him and his family and be trained and then you'd be

I guess Assuming you did did well you would be certified to to receive to be ordained and it's to receive a call and be ordained

And he had he had several men That fell into that that that category.

Okay, he's not and so some of what they have said Samuel Hopkins Bellamy And others have all said that they were that he was very approachable very down -to -earth

Especially with his family he was a loving man his relationship with his wife

Was Sarah was amazing and that's how and on his deathbed

He described his relationship with his wife as as as a an amazing relationship that he prayed would survive into heaven mmm

And and they they clearly loved one another Sarah and he had

Let's see. How many children did they have 10 or 11? Oh, wow. Yeah, it was a big fan and and Family as well.

He he had About the same number of Sisters so he was

I believe the only Only boy in his family growing up. I think I read that.

Yes, Windsor, Connecticut So guy, right He never

I never got the impression that he was that he complained about that, okay he

So And he also but he was also Involved with the first great awakening.

In fact, he was one of its practitioners and one of its defenders and that put him at odds with you know clergymen who

Thought less than highly about the the awakening Right, and that's that's probably what he's best known for and of course the sermon centers in the hands of an angry

God is is the revival Revivalist sermon if you will usually given as a

First first -class example of what that what a sermon in that setting looked like.

Hmm now I Would I suppose this is normal for people back then?

But but did Jonathan Edwards hold a personal diary or a journal he did that is of interest to historians who study his work

It did not he did not keep it consistently across the years, however

So there is there are there is a journal in a diary that that take up certain periods of time

Okay, however, he was very he read with a quill in hand So he was very he created these semi private notebooks

Of which the most famous is probably the miscellanies And that was it's called that because it covers virtually any topic that crossed his mind

There are also similar books on there's a commentary at a virtual commentary on the book of Revelation There's his blank

Bible, which was a similar thing except that it was commentary a running commentary on the scriptures

His brother -in -law gave him a Bible that had a blank page between every page of the

Bible and that allowed him to write It's the first journaling Bible, right? Yep, first Right, yes, his handwriting is very hard to decipher.

Let me tell you. Well, so is his reading if it's in print It's well that too I mean, so you got double double whammy with his hand his penmanship is not right.

It's not it's not messy It's just very fine. He wrote small and He also

Is I gonna say he's also as a deep theologian I was going to say

You had mentioned that he's called America's greatest theologian George Marsden has said that America's Augustine or Augustine Robert Yeah, his name escapes me wrote a book

Is that that where he dealt with that He's a Lutheran Neo -orthodox guy

Jensen Robert Jensen Jonathan Edwards If Someone wanted to dive deep into a

Biography, what would you recommend people as it would be it would be George Marsden Jonathan Edwards the life at C 2003

Yale University Press, it's a full -scale like 700 page book

There is an audio version inaudible Okay read by of all people

Jim Denison, ah I've spoken to Jim a long time ago. Very briefly.

He's the he's the the reader. He does a very good job in my opinion Reading Edward, what was the author's name?

George Marsden the Reformed historian Okay God and that's the go -to you would recommend for someone who wants to hey

I want to dive a little deeper into there are there are Two well, he wrote another follow -up kind of a shorter volume.

Okay that Is came afterward where he's comparing and contrasting then

John Jonathan Edwards with Ben Franklin And he's got a new one that's due out any

Pretty soon any day now That's a follow a third volume on Jonathan Edwards.

So That is that's exciting. It'll be interesting to see what he has to say

New and improved you might say but I would say the first volume Jonathan Edwards a life is an excellent

Excellent Volume, okay. Yeah, I'll definitely check it out. I just kind of died kind of downloaded it right now

Give me some morning morning reading. Okay, so it's it those those are the best biographies there is

Ian Murray's Biography, which is called Jonathan Edwards a new biography, but it came out in 1981

So I'm not quite sure that whether they should they might want to think about renaming it

It's a new biography, that's an old one. It's an old new one. Yeah Look Van Tillen paradox

So, okay, so we have we have Jonathan Edwards, we know who he is historically There are some interesting questions that we can we can ask

There's some interesting discussion in the chat about him owning slaves and the abolition movement. I'm sure there's some interesting

Details of his life there, but I want to kind of explore his thought more than his person

Although I it would I'd be remiss to not ask those questions about him Let's talk a little bit about his philosophy

What is Jonathan Edwards contribution to the field of philosophy and then we'll shift into his theology and right?

I want to talk a little bit about his reformed theology Occasional ism. Hopefully we can talk about that as well.

And then we'll shift in towards the back end the top of the hour some apologetic applications, so Let's try that.

So so what are in your opinion Jeff? What are the top three? philosophical contributions of Jonathan Edwards well

That's a I've not ever I've not given it a lot of thought in terms of topics, but let me think here first thing

I would want to say is his philosophy is what has been called a

Trinitarian Theistic idealism

Okay, and if any of your Watchers or listeners are familiar with George Berkeley the

Anglican Bishop philosopher Who was a very much an idealist?

Was that George is it George Berkeley or George Barclay? It's pronounced Barkley, but it's spelled

Berkeley Is that the guy that says things only exist if someone is perceiving it as hippie

Okay. Yes Being is to being for as being is being perceived

That's right He had like some weird view that every so things exist because God is always perceiving everything even though we don't write

And Edwards has some similarity to that Okay Edwards, I don't think

Edwards actually would deny the reality of Created reality, okay matter he would but but he does say that that That The spirit is more important than the physical the spiritual world spiritual world is more important than the in the physical

Edwards Yes, so so you would say Edwards was an idealist.

What what is it? Well, it's not just me any anybody who studied his thought It was granted that his phyllis of the school in which he would be classified would be idealism

Right now not everything that that means in the broader context.

Okay, he's he's He's re he's responding to Hobbesian Materialism so you understand his historical context remember 1703 to 1758 so he's he's a ministering in the context of Definitely of enlightenment

And the rise of deism that's one of the problems he faces and tackles in his preaching and in his writing

He tackles the the challenge of deism So, I guess so that would be a description of his overall philosophical thrust he

Puts the spiritual world God in the spiritual world as more important than the physical world

So there is that kind of platonic element in his thought but it's it it will be circumscribed or constrained by his reformed biblical

Theology, right and I want to get into that but just real real quick folks If you guys are listening in and you're enjoying this conversation,

I'd really appreciate if you do me a solid and hit the like button And share this if you if you know other people who like kind of discussions on You know historical figures and important figures throughout

Christian history You know, feel free to share it. That'd be super super helpful. Now. I want to ask you about really in my in my opinion

Jonathan Edwards masterpiece the freedom of the will or I was gonna say bondage of the will which isn't that's

I Remember, I have to take off my headphones for this when

I when I read portions of freedom of the will and people think I look smart because you know

I can talk about priest up and transcendental arguments and I wear glasses. I read the first page and I was just like This Is me after this is me buying a

Jonathan Edwards book This is me reading the introduction. I Turned to Jerry Lewis.

I can't do it. I get this crazy. It's a It's definitely a challenge but When someone does the work to kind of Plow through it.

I mean, it's it's amazing whether you agree with him or not He's got such a great nuance and subtlety and such a difficult topic and he's so thorough

Why don't you kind of share with us? Jonathan Edwards view, I mean, can you can you

Encapsulate everything he wanted to say about the freedom of the will, you know without getting into details and being overly nuanced

Which is what I would do if we had more time to discuss just freedom of the will But freedom of the will is

Edwards defense of What we call compatibilism, right which is the compatibility of divine sovereignty and human responsibility right to to To allude to the da

Carson book on on that subject divine compatibility And so Edwards is

Edwards is critiquing The idea that that The idea of what's called libertarian free will right?

Okay libertarian free Will is the idea that we can choose either a or B?

equally likely and What using the language of equilibrium?

So we might say Psychological or epistemological equilibrium, but the point is he's defending the reform

Typically reformed view and unless you're certain scholars who I will not name

Who are challenging the view that Edwards? that Edwards was advocating the standard reformed view of of the freedom of the will

It is I think He has been shown to hold with his creativity and unique idiosyncratic way of stating things he is defending the the the the reformed view of Compatibility divine human compatibility and That can be demonstrated because he

Both in the book freedom of the will but in many other places he talks about primary and secondary

Causality right and and that that brings into view occasionalism, but I don't want to go there yet So so basically he's he's challenging

The the idea that that Fallen man can choose to follow

Christ Out of his own In the libertarian sense, yeah

Folks who watch the channel here should be familiar We I've had a

Christian philosopher Guillaume been young who I think is one of the leading defenders of compatibilism

Which Jeff just defined for us and we speak of libertarian freedom. That is a an incompatibilist perspective which holds to a

View of the ability to do otherwise known as the categorical ability versus say what the compatibilist would hold which is which is known as the conditional

Ability to do otherwise so folks are interested in that discussion in -depth discussion I had I had

Guillaume been young on like two or three times Where we talk like two hours a piece on that topic and he answers a bunch of different one of the

Folks are are familiar with the idea What Edwards talks about and in technical detail

Will warn you it's not It's tough. It's not more than reading with It can be tough going but but he he's

Basically, what he says is we are free to do what we want to do and we will do what we want to do

And of course that brings into view the very idea of divine human ability, right a book that Builds off of Edwards, but it's not a summary of Edwards as such is a really good book called no place for sovereignty

Which I don't even know if it's still in print. It's an IV people. You wait right here. Wait, you have it here my friend

Okay which Was one of those books

I might tell you folks while he's away from the screen. Oh, he's back. Do you have it?

That's it we'll cover I was gonna say the purple color came McGregor, right?

It's actually a book Practice all the tackling tackling open theism in Clark Pinnock in particular and and That book is is pretty good.

I would say a pretty good Encapsulation of Edwards is

Teaching and freedom of the will So if you if you if you if what

I've said just now is off -putting to you Start with no place for sovereignty.

Yeah for folks who are interested actually, there's like a glossary of terms so if like when he uses the technical terminology that you can look it up in the back and There's some

I mean, this is an excellent book. I had a friend who suggested it to me One of the

I mean I've marked up this book I've read it a while ago Yeah, when

I got it in 95 between 94 and 96 it came out

It was after I became reformed Right, and and so it was but it was it said

I was gonna tell people It's one of those books that I said said to myself. I wish I had written this it is so good

Very good. This is a book. I would wished I had written. I know Jeff someone who's anti Calvinist and Doesn't like Calvinism at all but in his top five books to read to properly understand a good strong case for a

Calvinistic understanding that this was in his top five. Wow. Well, that's good.

Good to know. Yeah That that there that that he's reading Well written material, right?

Yeah So that's that that that would be a good primer before reading freedom of the will itself, although I would also say that Steve Nichols Guided Jonathan Edwards a guided tour of his life and thought has a good chapter on the freedom of the will in his book

Okay, that that's a good another good place to start. Sure Freedom of the will is is is is more honored in the breach than the observance

It is that it has not been refuted, but it has been ignored There is

You can't say stuff like that. I have some provisionist to watch my channel. They're gonna make a three -hour video response

The other thing is not everybody like John L.

Girardeau Southern Presbyterian theologian had some problems with Edwards view and I think

Neftali press Nephtali press and Reformation heritage books has just published a new edition of his book on freedom of the real

And so I understanding Jeff it What's his name Oh John Gerstner, dr.

John Gerstner was a Jonathan Edwards scholar of sorts recommend would you recommend anything by him?

95 % or 99 .2 5 % of his work. Yes. My dissertation was actually a critique of Gerstner on a particular element

No, I only wish his rational biblical theology was still in print the three -volume set

Okay, he was he was actually one of the editors of in the original config the original configuration for the

Yale edition of the works of Edwards He was going apparently they were going to do a volumes by Books of the

Bible oddly stricken strangely enough and he was working on the Romans volume. Okay, and Somehow that fell through and so a lot of the material that he produced for that ended up I've been told in the rational biblical theology

Yeah Yeah, Gerstner, of course What he the mentor of R .C.

Sproul? By the way, they both sounded the same they did they both come from the

Pittsburgh area, right? I heard I heard that or a watcher of Sproul for in a reader of Sproul for many years before I actually

Set my eyes and ears on Gerstner and when I heard Gerstner I said he sounds exactly like R .C.

Sproul But well Jeff they call it the Gerstner growl where he talks like this. Yes, and when

God created Sometimes do that Mistaken Right Gerstner Gerstner's has a

I think There's the video series That's also available in audio of his he has a whole series on Jonathan Edwards, which is worth worth

People's looking at and that's available probably on the Ligonier app, right? It's probably is it's it's on YouTube Okay, I've not looked to see if it's available

Through the Ligonier. Sure. I'm sure it is. They've got the John Gerstner apologetics handout series

And yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if it's available there, too Yeah, I originally listened to it via audio as a course at Westminster Okay, I it was an independent course and I opted to do that and the president of the seminary

Sam Logan at the time who is also a Jonathan Edwards scholar

He he did all the testing me alright, so But that I enjoyed listening and I've enjoyed watching the full full

Monty with the video Hmm because yeah, he's he's not afraid by the way to disagree with Edwards where he thinks

Edwards went astray Yeah Yeah, his Edwards handling of original sin

He he chastises Edwards for Getting painting himself into a corner on the how do we account for the fall if?

Adam and Eve were created as holy and righteous. That's right. That's right because yeah, yeah according to our nature and so our nature

Adams nature wasn't sinful. So correct. So how do we account? Well in there's the mystery, right?

There is the legitimate mystery. The Bible doesn't tell us But Edwards and so Edwards does what in that volume on original sin?

By the way freedom of the will on original sin. These are what we would call apologetic oriented volumes

They are his theology, but they they're they're they're con their his original historical context

Was clearly an apologetical context in which he was challenging false teaching

Okay, it was challenging false teaching that was seeping into the church of His day and it took the form of what he called

Arminian ism Now what he called Arminian ism Was not necessarily technically

Arminian ism in the in the sense of being stemming from the teaching of Jacobus Arminius Or James Arminius depending on which form you follow

So it was it was not it was so when when you read

Arminian in Edwards Translate that as Anti -calvinistic

Okay, this is what Arminius was but that's you know, but they aren't as if you're not you don't like Calvinism He just be like, yeah, you're

Arminian. Yeah, so Edwards so Edwards did a volume on original sin where He seeks to defend the reformed

Calvinistic we I would say federal Aversion not federal vision federal version of covenantal version of Yeah federal headship

Where he's you where Edwards is unique is is how he did the Mecca the the mechanics of How God the mechanics of the federal relationship?

Hmm. Yeah, I don't want to again. I don't want to deep dive into that at this point If you're asking questions like what makes him unique trust me there are unique elements in everything he does

He's not a mere while he is a faithful transmitter of the reformed tradition

He's not afraid To Speculate he does not share

John Calvin's aversion to speculation and he says so in his miscellaneous Now that that's important that's an important point because in in explaining the relationship

Jeff between human freedom and divine sovereignty and Working out what the divine sovereignty is how

God actually accomplishes these things It has been a part of the reformed tradition to not be dogmatic as to the mechanics of that so one a friend of mine would say that there's a form of Calvinism called the

Mysterian Calvinism and that God is meticulously sovereign But it's a mystery as to how he actually works that out

Whereas some other thinkers like Jonathan Edwards has gone the extra step and tried to posit the mechanism by which

God accomplishes Sovereignty so so so the mechanism is not an essential feature of reformed theology but some reformed theologians have sought to fill in that gap and explain how they think

God accomplishes and Sometimes there's some great insights there and others I think people overstep their bound and and they're they're swimming

Dreams to avoid the one is to be because I'm a you and I both recognize that what is speculative to one theologian is not speculative to another and Unfortunately, we sometimes throw that word around and what we really mean is

I disagree with you, right? So that the two extremes one is to be hyper speculative where in other words

Calvin was right Deuteronomy 29 29 the secret things belong to the

Lord our God the things revealed belong to us and to our children So that there there are limits and Edwards was more comfortable with you know exceeding

Traditional limits like if this is the line Edwards did just yeah The very often that I would

I would agree for instance his particular philosophical Perspective I don't share.

In fact, I don't agree. I think it's unnecessary and Perhaps even unbiblical at points, but that's another better Also the other extreme so if the one extreme is hyper speculation the other is

You know Not teaching what God's Word acts the full the full richness of what

God's Word teaches us Yeah So I mean those of it would be the two extremes or the the other the other

Temptation is either to arrogance or to laziness okay, another intellectual arrogance or intellectual laziness, and sometimes

I'm afraid I Personally am afraid to attribute intellectual arrogance to someone

Because I know our our world is is basically in my opinion

Can be characterized as intellectually slothful Hmm both both in the church and outside the church.

Sure. Sure. So, you know because I recognize that Proclivity You know toward laziness you know,

I we want it all broken down into bite -sized pieces and then there's the the you know the going the other extreme where you you know,

I I once read a Book celebrating a reformed philosophical

Theologian and I couldn't understand the blessed word in it because it was so Jenga. It was so jargon

Centered right it was and it was like one more jargon word after another

Yeah, you know, it's like We're seeking to clarify by using

Obscure concepts. Yeah, it does not work, right? So so Edwards, of course is also an apologist for So he's a he's an apologist for the reformed

Form of Christianity. He's also an apologist for a

The First Awakening Now he doesn't accept everything in the

Great Awakening he's a he's a critical appreciator of and practitioner of the

First Great Awakening And now if you if you were to read the the the various volumes that Edwards wrote or works that Edwards wrote on the awakening starting with a narrative of surprising work of God And concluding say with the religious affections as his most mature thought you would see

An evolution or development in his thinking where he becomes much more mature and in much more critical of professions of conversion

And maybe he went overboard That's another area where I'm critical is the typical

Puritan navel gazing And if you don't know what navel gazing is, that's my expression for morbid introspection

Okay Now, of course, we are called to make our calling an election.

Sure, right? So introspection as such is not the problem, but morbid introspection is

Mm -hmm. That's why we always want to point people to the Lord Jesus Christ and not to their own inner spiritual the workings of their heart

But Edwards is a is a defender and Also a critic of the excesses of the first Great Awakening sure

And and by the way, he was a cessationist He did not believe in the continuing ongoing operation of the revelatory gifts that Paul lists among the spiritual gifts in the

Throughout the two or three places where he discusses them. Sure Ephesians Romans and 1st

Corinthians, right? So he's well the reason I stressed that is because the back in the 80s there was a thing called the

Toronto blessing Yes, which was connected to the

Brownsville Movement which was connected to something going on in Florida at the time

Okay, they all claimed Jonathan Edwards and And you know,

I have to say they were not reading him very well If they thought that he was a defender of what they was going on, you know the laughing and barking and all that kind of stuff

So he was not in favor of that. Although Some will criticize him because he did not throw out the baby with the bathwater

Because he's concerned with the subjective work of God in salvation

Okay, this is my opinion But I'm going to stress it bluntly some some reformed folk are allergic to the subjective aspects of the work of God in salvation

Now I you can argue that Edwards went overboard the other way and that would be typical

Puritan American Puritan Sure practice but but It might be that in our day and age.

There's need for a good dose dose of that of Edwards, right? Edwards was also

I should say a very much a biblical theologian Sermons and in his treatises you see that So he's a pre

Voss Ian, you know making reference to your hardest boss the father of modern reformed biblical theology the great

Princeton Ian Edwards was into typology

He was in his sermons and his treatises bear that out He knew and he he says as much in fact

One of his private semi private notebooks is called images or shadows of divine things

Edwards understanding of of of Typology went beyond the traditional notion, which is of an

Old Testament person institution or event For shadowing Christ, right the person in work of Jesus Christ in the

New Testament Edwards would argue that God has written that kind of situation into nature and history or problem

So that he would look at the Sun out You know the solar system the solar system and say that was intended by God to be a reference to his son

So in Sure, and he believed that these were not merely creative reader response

Responses to to the Bible or or nature or history, but this was

God's intended meaning Hmm, so it's very it's a very big part of Edwards handling of the

Bible and you may find it in some ways pre -critical

Other ways not pre -critical because he is ministering at the time of the height of the the of the

Enlightenment the unfold of the Enlightenment So as I said

Edwards was had both Arminian ism and Deism and deism was the view

Prevalent in in Great Britain and it was making its way over to America that God Created the world and then has nothing to do with it.

Right, right the clockmaker He sets the clock in motion, but that leaves it on it

Nothing to do with that. He would have no truck with that as that's right And he often addressed that in his sermons and in his writings as well

Hmm interesting. Well, well, let's let's do a quick shift here because we're at the top of the hour

If you can kind of briefly get into Edwards occasional ism, and then we're gonna shift

Into some apologetic application. I know there's so much more that we can say, right? The occasional ism is related would be related to his apologetic.

Oh, okay, so it's not it's a good bridge Good now now the other

I studied occasional ism for a little while. I don't know if it's the same kind but an occasionalist that I studied said something along the lines that No knowledge is ascertained through Empirical sensation so that when

I touch a table, there's no content to my touching I have to impose internal thought categories to interpret my my my senses

And so this particular occasionalist said that revelation is Communicated to me on the occasion

That when I touch or when I speak or interact with the world God will reveal to me through my senses

Occasion upon which God will reveal truth about the external world to me. Is that similar or is there?

Yes, and no, okay in broad in the broad sense, yes, it's it's Occasional ism is the view.

Oh the other thing I wanted to say about that the person that you were mentioning Sounds like you owe a lot to manual calm

Hmm as soon as you talk about categories of the mind, that's very much a part of the mind I feel like that mind is active in the knowledge.

I know now of course so Occasional ism is the view that that that there is basically that God is the

Only active a real the only real active agent in the universe That God is the only real active agent in the universe that what we call cause and effect in our

Relationships are Basically the opportunity for God to act in that particular

Okay, that's that's a theological form of occasional ism. Okay, and Edwards can sound that way

The problem is he he upholds primary and secondary causality at length

For instance in miscellany 1245 Hmm He he goes into great length like ten pages

That's ten pages in the modern Yale edition and And he he spends he spends a good period

I'm talking about the distinction between primary and secondary causality he uses he also distinguishes between What I would call ordinary and extraordinary

Providence miracle, okay So he why would he go into a long discussion about that if he held to a pure form of occasionalism?

So that's why there's a that's why I've I've I follow saying

Lee Former professor at Princeton Seminary who's an Edwards expert who's who says that this is an area of possible debate or there there there we may have to You know, we have to put a lot more work into this before we answer the question there's now there's a related doctrine that sometimes is is is

Added to it and that is continuous creation Okay, and that's the idea that instead of having

You you have Instead of having a distinction between creation and Providence You have first creation second creation third creation

And so creation is re made or recreated a new every moment hmm, that's continuous creationism and You can see how that might fit very nicely with occasionalism

Because if God is the only active agent Then it's Now you and I would both agree that nothing is in the in no created thing is self -sustaining, right?

right, so we would we would grant that point, but the the occasionalist and the continuous creationist want to go further and in and obliterate the the creation

Providence distinction No, I don't think Edwards is always again, always

Talking like a continuous creationist, but sometimes he sounds like sure and so that simply means that We're talking about a theologian from over 300 years ago

And it's really not wise to assume that we know what he's talking about before we dig deeply

Right through of any historical theologian and by that I don't mean a theologian who teaches historical theology

But a theologian from the past right so That brings us to the apologetics.

Yes. I dissertation was on the apologetics and anthropology of Okay operations of the human soul

And so Edwards was very very very much as I've said an

Apologist and in fact, I have a chapter on Edwards as apologist in the book

Edwards for the church That was published a few years ago by evangelical press over in the

UK Edwards was an apologist in the practical sense in the fact that he did it but also

But he doesn't have a an apologetics manual So it's hard to systematize his method, but you can grab

Yeah, I would I would I say you're right. It's it because the I'll give you an example

John Gerstner and R .C. Sproul and others would classify Edwards as a classical apologist

That is he offers Philosophical arguments say for the existence of God and then

Typical evidentialist arguments when you look at the Bible, right, right And he does some of that however

Ava Chamberlain who is the editor of I think the volume 18 of the works of Edwards in the

Yale edition says that Edwards Presupposed the

God who he argued for That's her language and she's never as far as I know she's not familiar with Van Till, okay make sense of that That was one of those when

I read that years ago It went off like fireworks in the mind because I think she's right.

So Edwards is eclectic is what I say So he's he's he for one thing.

He while he is a near contemporary of Emanuel Kant He's not going to be familiar he predates

Emanuel Kant's influence and and Many if not, most historians of Christian apologetics will argue that the the church did not become

Epistemically self -aware until the time of Emanuel Kant in God's providence.

So that's the case You're not going to find in Edwards a discussion about various schools of apologetics

Mm -hmm, like you might find in our five views of apologetics volume that's under been published a few years back

So is it in freedom of the will? He uses induction and deduction and maybe adduction

Okay, so he's not he's not tied to any One way of doing things

So he's eclectic. He follows a mixed kind of would you say that his apologetic is more pragmatic?

It's just kind of whatever the situation called for Well, that may be the result or the consequence, but I don't know that he's committed to being pragmatic

I think okay. He's doing what the reformed scholastics for instance, and he was trained in Reformed scholasticism, by the way, his favorite two favorite theologians

Peter van Maastricht and Franciscus Turretin Favorite theologians

Van Massey guards in the hard read man, and he read him in Latin. Oh boy

There was no English translation of church in fact in it. That's pretty impressive So his apologetic is going to to have characteristics of Presuppositionalism evidentialism and classicalism.

So but I I think his historical context It means that that there's no settled

You know does Now he'll say to give you an example, you know to address for instance.

Was he a classical apologist? He'll say the cause the problem with the Cosmological argument is that it doesn't prove the existence of one

God, but the existence or Possibly could lead to the argument for the existence of many gods.

Mm -hmm. That's a typical presuppositional criticism of The cosmological argument for the existence of God right

Bob Bonson and van Tilt and others Will make that kind of argument right and Edwards makes that aren't he makes he he recognizes that as a problem

So now to to speak briefly about his eclectic approach as presuppositional is now

Like as we're like as we're sitting here, right we While I'm sure God uses people who are willing to defend the faith.

We would probably not Go along with an eclectic approach as though Methods don't matter right?

No, I would not advocate it What I was when I when I described his apologetic that way it was meant as a historical judgment

Sure, yeah an accurate description of what? His method, but you're not you're not supposing that Yeah, we can mix methods together that no, no.

No, I'm not like myself Now Different from saying we can't learn you and I have already said we learned from other

Right, I think sometimes people hear us reject the eclectic method and they think that we are in our own little cubbyhole

Right with our Bible a candle and van Tilt You know that kind of thing

Which there could be worse things, but that's not exactly We're here so I can read

Edwards and I am thrilled that he's not afraid to use scripture Hmm.

I am thrilled that that he argues From a

Strong place and That was of a Chamberlain's point was that he doesn't argue to God.

He argues from God, right? So, you know, there may be some places that look like a classical method

Another another treaties of his which I think is probably should be that is the most important It's not freedom of the will it's concerning the end for which

God created the world if you want to get a big picture View of what

Edwards is about That's it I'm turning the end for which God created the world sure and Eli What do you think

Edwards said was the end for which God created the world? To glorify

God and enjoy him forever Well, no, no the end for which he created the world

Oh For his glory. Yes. Yes. That's it. That's it's it's as simple as that and yet as complex as that hmm,

I Remember the first time I read that hit that was actually the addition that John Piper Has produced which is

God's passion for his own glory which is actually half the book is

Piper talking about why he's interested in Edwards and then the second half of the book is the

Dissertation concerning the end for which God created the world with annotated footnotes by Piper.

Hmm Okay, but I remember reading that and being struck by the aesthetic beauty of the argument

Hmm, not just what he said, which I fully was on board with but how he said it

So, you know, that's an that's an I would almost recommend that as the first thing somebody reads

Okay Because it's so big picture From Edwards perspective because that is his view everything is to be and this is he shares with Van Till Then if you say what is vent the point of Antilles apologetic?

It's to keep God in the picture, right? And what is the point of Edwards theology and preaching and pastoring?

hmm to to keep God in the picture and Give him his glory, right?

And so there's a lot more that we could say but but Criticism of the deists is that they're robbing

God of his glory And some intentionally perhaps some unintentionally but all practically and landing in the same place sure

Edwards will argue against the deist view of need natural revelation is sufficient

Okay, and he's one of the arguments he uses that. Oh, it's funny He says it's it's this is my paraphrase

It's isn't it funny how all these deists are arguing for natural revelation

And they all come from places where the Christian faith has been Dominant or predominant and is maybe the influence is beginning to fade

Sure, and so these guys are basically stealing from Christian Property hmm.

Oh someone else made an argument like that More generally speaking.

Sure. His name is Vant Hill Right about to taking from the

Christian worldview borrowed capital borrowed capital, that's right So Edwards makes that kind of an argument against the deists

And that if there was one group that was the big apologetic challenge of Edwards day

It was the deists right because as you know Many of the founding fathers not all of them, but but a few of them at least were deists

Several of them were Christian, right? Thomas Jefferson with all due respect

David Barton Thomas Jefferson was a deist at best, okay

So Edwards was tackling that and and and he did it in his preaching to his people in the pew

So he made it practical, right? He was very deep theoretically

There's no doubt but but he also made it practical in his sermons And I should say the last seven years in Stockbridge.

He minist he was a missionary to Mohegan Indians Mohegan Indians Or Housatonic Indians as well as a white congregation, so he had two congregations he had an

Indian Native American congregation and a white congregation and He he tailored his preaching to the to the

Native Americans in a very much more and much more greater emphasis on He got away from manuscript preaching and that's a whole nother discussion sure

In Edward studies, you know his preaching style But but so when when he was

Preaching about deism. He did that to Native Americans as well as to white his white congregation

And so he wanted to warn the Native Americans Don't follow these white people these these people don't don't go down that road and he had converts

And He had a school and he was also a headmaster of a Christian school of Native American people do all this stuff it seems like so much wrote freedom of the will and and on original sin and the nature of true virtue and Concerning the end for which

God created the world. So yeah, he was he was sitting back in Daydreaming in his hammock in in Stockbridge for the last seven years

And not doing anything no, no All of that To say that there's is

I've said before on this on this Program that that there's no theologian in the past that we

Want to to agree with I mean that we will agree with on everything right and just as dr.

Gerstner was was comfortable enough with Jonathan Edwards to to take him to task where he thought he needed to be and I believe

I agreed with dr. Gerstner and his his Mmm, taking Jonathan to the woodshed, right?

and so but see that doesn't that doesn't diminish him in his

Significance because there are arguments for instance in his as he does that he has a whole

Book on the harmony of the Old and New Testament he has the book on the profit fulfilled prophecies of the

Old Testament a defense of the mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch a Defense of the divine the divinity of Christ and all of these they they

Are a combination of biblical theology and in sort of evidentialism

Sure, but the arguments the arguments I would be perfectly happy with using because they're dealing with the evidence of the text

That is of the Old and New Testament. That is before that is set before us, right? So there's those arguments are you know?

Trying to remember one of the arguments that he uses for the mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch Specifically the

Deuteron Deuteron book of Deuteronomy And I'm forgetting the details now not that important, but it's worth your while whichever you can probably find yet find it online the harmony of the

Old and New Testament in the The the books dealing with with the proving

Christ's divinity And the fulfillment the fulfillment of prophecy these things

Edwards knew his Bible, right? And it puts me to shame You know, and I've been a

Christian now 40 years And I'm just amazed at what?

What he did? His his preaching is great It's the plain

Puritan plain style doctrine ex doctrinal exposition or exposition doctrine and Application or what the

Puritans called improvement or uses and And those are a good place.

So so I Would say if there were three things I would recommend the people to read is their first thing first exposure

Concerning the end for which God created the world A sinner's in the hands of an angry

God and the heaven is a world of love and then you can branch out from there to other things and there are there are a boatload of Resources Jonathan Edwards is second only to Abraham Lincoln as the most written about America Hmm that blow your mind and it's pretty interesting.

Yeah, theologian is His second only to Abraham Lincoln is the most written about American Wow Yeah, it's amazing.

You're there are as of like 20 years ago, there were 3 ,000 items and I'm sure it may have even doubled or quadrupled since hmm.

Yeah Amazing I'm definitely gonna check out that biography that you suggested.

No. Yeah, the George Martin biography is beautiful It's a beautiful piece. It was

It's it's historically sound and beautifully written. Hmm It's readable, right?

Excellent little Yeah, well if you do the audio version, well, Jeff, I I want to thank you.

This has been interest I mean we can talk about I mean this I mean we can talk about Jonathan Edwards for ten hours, right or even more

We could or longer. Yes, that's right. That's right But I think this is gonna be a use for Useful people to get interested in it when

I when I listen to I love listening to Biographies reading biographies having conversations like this make me just want to dive deep into into the books and things like that So I'm gonna check out

Jonathan Edwards a little more I should say there is a Max McLean the dramatist the

Christian Dramatist who recently played CS Lewis in the movie that was in theater. It's about a year and a half ago.

Okay He has a really fine Reading of the sinners in the hands of an angry

God Okay, so if you're if you're wanting and he's he's very he's the

Shakespearean trained actor Interesting. So I mean there's a good there's a and he sells it's available probably on Amazon Max McLean audio version of sinners in the hands of Audio audio

Bible. Well, why I encourage folks to check that out audio books are awesome But if you're you know, the kind of person needs to open up a book and read it.

I mean you can't go wrong With Jonathan Edwards in terms of depth and if anything you're gonna learn something that will be useful to you

Of course with everyone you want to eat the meat and spit out the bone But that doesn't mean some of the meat is super delicious and useful useful.

So Jeff I want to thank you so much this has been super awesome and If folks like these kinds of episodes where we kind of jump into like a historical figure someone in church history let me know in the comments or email me at revealed apologetics at gmail .com

if you'd like me to jump into maybe something on Van Till or Gordon Clark or the controversy between Van Till and Clark that's always interesting to dive into some of those details

Let me know email me And I will try my best to cater my shows to what folks want to listen to But um, that's going to close us off.

We're at a one hour and 20 minutes Jeff. This has been excellent I appreciate your friendship. I appreciate your knowledge and I'm looking forward to having you back on again in the future.

You brothers me too. We'll make it happen So is there any last things you'd like to share with the listeners before we sign off?

only that Edwards is it definitely will deepen your Christian walk.

I mean I even where you disagree with him There will be practical benefits to reading him, but he will stretch your mind

And he believed there's no short shrifting of Christian doctrine in in his practical ministry

And and so I would say I would encourage you, you know to to Take the opportunity

You'll find his stuff on the web. So I mean it's you don't even have to To You can start out by reading something that he's written

That's a like he's probably has stuff in the Christian classics at the real library

Right, you see el org Okay All right

So that's the place you can go or monergism the monitor. Yeah monergism dot

They'll have a fair bit of Edward stuff online Well, yeah Where you can find stuff hmm, and you can always buy my book the unified operations of the human soul the apologetics and Theological anthropology of Jonathan Edwards awesome.

Well, thank you so much brother Jeff and Everyone who's living who's been listening I hope this conversation has been a blessing and has been edifying to you

And if you liked this discussion, like I said before, you know Hit that like button share these videos and that helps if you listen to the podcast and iTunes

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That would be greatly appreciated if you can if not your prayers would be appreciated as well

Well, that's it for this episode folks. Thank you so much for listening in and Until next time take care and god bless.