The Theological & Apologetic Significance of Jonathan Edwards w/Jeffery Waddington

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host Eli Ayala, and today we're gonna be talking about Jonathan Edwards. But before we jump in with my good friend Jeffrey Waddington Who I'm very excited that we're able to get him back on and connect.

I was just talking to Jeff before the before we went live that I really enjoy his bitmojis. He sends me in the morning very very encouraging and funny. And so I appreciate him as a brother and looking forward to this discussion.

But before we jump into the discussion, I want to let folks know that I had plans to have dr James White on to talk about Mormonism and that fell through because of James busy schedule and so we're gonna have him on the plan is to have him back on next week.

I think it's either Monday or Tuesday. I double-checked but you check my social media. I'll keep folks folks updated on On that I'm also working on Chapter 2 of this Vantil and the use of evidence. You kind of scroll through my old episodes.

I actually have a teaching on chapter 1 and I'm going to work my way through. I'm almost done with the outline for chapter 2 and I'm just gonna work my way through it. Because this is a super a super good book.

It's short and A lot of good nuggets in here and it's just not available. So I figured let me take some not available precept material that no one's gonna read because they're not in print anymore or that you have to Buy it in the theological black market for like $100 or $300.

And let me take those books, which I have most of those black market books at my library and break them down and just eat from Them so that folks could have updated kind of a you know, Bonson's not with us anymore.

Vantil is not with us. So perhaps you'll have to settle for the Puerto Rican revealed apologetics guy. You know teaching through some of this stuff. And so hopefully it'll be useful for folks. So looking forward to doing that and you guys know that I'm a teacher full-time.

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So if you're looking to support revealed apologetics, that's one really really helpful way to do it. All right. Well, I want to introduce my good friend Jeffrey obi-wan Waddington welcome back to revealed apologetics, man.

Oh, it's good to be back with you brother.

Excited about what you're do. Predict the content you're producing for The web getting getting dr. Van Til's approach to apologetics out to a broader audience.

And.

It's just to remind folks that we're talking about Edwards. But but but I'm also a Vantillian. There are a few of us Who are students of Edwards who are also Vantillian's. Maybe a small group, but it's we are we are here.

We just wanted to get that On the table that I am a Vantillian by conviction.

Excellent. Now, would you would you say you're like a purist Vantillian? Or are there what is there maybe like one or two areas you might disagree with him on?

I'm going to be working as a matter of fact, I'm going to be looking at his Paper that he wrote as a student at Princeton on the will and his theological relations. Where he has a section where I believe he critiques Edwards on freedom of the will how he argues it.

He's not critiquing the the point of the argument, but right and that the method he uses. I Think that is available on Kindle if folks are interested in that. Yeah. Well, it's part of the works of Vantill That that are available through logos.

Hmm. So there but there may there may be.

An online version of it out there bootleg version someone put out.

It probably could find it at Princeton. And I don't remember if it's the seminary or if it's the University. Sure. Could be although now that I say that I think it was written under CW Hodge, so it was probably the seminary.

Hmm. Okay. He got a he got a prize for writing it. That's awesome.

Yeah, it's pretty sharp, dude.

Whether you agree with him or not. He's a sharp, dude. It's sad that a lot of critics of Vantill who kind of take kind of them from far away. They throw stones from far away. Don't really know. No. No, I.

I'm convinced of dr. Vantill. I appreciate. Probably close to being a purist. Although I appreciate Bonson in frame Poitras and My good brother Lane Tipton Brothers like that who are who have and are doing a building on his work, right?

Like any Theologian from the past they they can't say everything. So that's right. That's right. And and so it's good to see you know, what? What he taking his insights and expanding right or extending them, right?

All right out so that that's a good thing. And and I think that's probably what you're doing at a Also. And and that's important. No, you know never never.

We.

All want to be humble. Right want to be. We need to be self-aware sober whatever language you want to use. Wise in our self assessments, but but we don't want to be little. The gifts that God has given us and the opportunities that he provides in his Providence to Use those gifts that he's given us.

So you brother are gifted. And it's I appreciate what you do and and there are many many others who do as well. So that's well.

Thank you very much. I very much appreciate that. And so. Yeah, well, well, let's jump right into this then. Jonathan Edwards is. When if you don't know about Jonathan Edwards. This is one thing that most people hear from far away when they haven't read him or anything that he is one of if not the greatest theologian that the America has ever produced.

So I hear that all the time. So here in on American soil. He was top-notch brilliant. Folks who disagree with him will acknowledge his brilliance. And of course those who agree with him will sing his praises forevermore, right?

So why don't we get into kind of the basics here? Can you explain for us who was Jonathan Edwards and why is he.

Important in his in the history of thought, right? Well, John Jonathan Edwards was a American Puritan Reformed or Calvinist to congregational pastor theologian. He served for many years at the church in Northampton, Massachusetts The colony of Massachusetts he predates the American War for Independence.

So and then he served for seven seven years in Stockbridge Massachusetts best known for being the home of the artist Norman Rockwell at a later period of time and Then he spent all of a month and a half or thereabouts as president of what is now Princeton University.

Ended up getting a smallpox inoculation and instead of being Inoculated so to speak he was. He contracted the disease and died from it. Oh, wow. Okay, so how old was he when he passed? Yeah, he was born in October of 1703 and he died in March of 1758.

So what does that put in that 55?

Something like that. I'm not good at math. I could do philosophy and theology. Simple math just goes.

By three years.

Okay.

I'm used to brother. I'm used to studying theologians and people of note in history who were older than me. But now I have to recognize that many of these guys When they you know when they became When they hit their stride Were younger than me.

So yes Edwards was 5455 when he died, I guess he was 54 because it wouldn't he would have turned 55 in October at 58. Yeah. Young so he was pretty young. Yeah, he was you know by our standards assuredly and so Now understand that that.

That that Edwards followed his grandfather as pastor of the church the Congregational Church in Northampton and his Grandfather had served for 60 plus years. His grandfather was Solomon's daughter who was himself a well-known reformed pastor theologian in New England or actually Over in the old world as well.

In fact, he was called the Pope of the Connecticut River Valley. Okay. Yeah, so. And Edwards father who was also a pastor Timothy Edwards was pastor in the East Windsor, Connecticut Congregational Church for over 60 years.

So this is back at the time where the average pastor stayed For life.

At the first church to which he was called right there was a consistency back then a dedication.

There was which we do not have now. The left the last time I looked into the topic the average the average Lengths of stay for a pastor in an evangelical churches two years. Hmm. Well, you got we got John MacArthur.

He's been there for he's a dinosaur now, right? Yeah, I mean you're right.

One of my predecessors that my previous Congregation served for 44 years. So yeah, it's still possible. Just not as popular. It's just not as common, right? Yeah, which is too bad because I think we we've sacrificed Something by giving that up now.

Edwards, of course Spent 20 plus years in Northampton. So that's a good long stretch. Hmm, but not 60 plus years. He wasn't in the ministry that long. Sure. 30. He was in the ministry 30 plus years all together.

Because he also served as a tutor. What we would call a professor. At what became Yale University. Okay, so he did that for two years but he's he's best known because he he was. Some people know him as a fire and brimstone preacher.

Sure, the sermon centers in the hands of an angry God, which he preached in Enfield. Which at that point I think was still in Massachusetts. Enfield is now in Connecticut. It's the same place. It hasn't moved but the state line has okay, and The the thing is.

The last time I looked. The number of sermons that Edward preached that we were we would call fire and brimstone like centers in the hands of an angry God. Only make up about 14 of his extant corpus of sermons.

Okay.

And that's what and the reason why so many people know that sermon is because it's it was if not now but it was Included in the Typical anthology of American literature that is used in American high school English classes.

I was so it wasn't it was in the book with that when I took my English class in 10th grade. Wait, right 1980. Yeah, 43 years ago. Don't rub it in. So. Yeah, and that's why I would I would love to have that centers in the hands of an angry God, which is an excellent sermon.

And Heaven is a world of love paired as two sermons in an in an American literature anthology to see the at least another another Side of Edwards preaching. And that was the 15th and final sermon in the charity and its fruit series that you can find through a Banner of truth has a paperback edition.

It's in the two-volume banner of truth Hendrickson set.

Sermons are all the sermons available. Oh.

They are online at Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale University their website. There are seven 71 or 70 some-odd volumes of Material not just sermons. What they've done is they took the 26 Volume. Actually, there's 27 physical volumes of the Yale edition of the critical edition of the works of Edwards And added to them In addition to those being digitized or HTML.

There may be several formats, but okay email at least they've taken Everything. As far as I know everything that Edwards ever wrote whether it was published or private or semi-private is now available on a In a searchable database at the Jonathan Edwards Center.

Well, that is beautiful.

The technology is so so helpful in that regard now now I'm this might sound unrelated, but I'm a huge martial arts fan. I grew up watching martial art movies and one of my favorite martial artist is Bruce Lee and In an interview someone asked him a question how he wanted to be remembered I would you want to be remembered as a movie star and he goes something like this.

He goes I don't want to be remembered as a star. The idea of superstar is an illusion. I want to be remembered as a human being right now. I love that because when you get past the fame of someone whether it's movies whether they're a philosopher whether they're You know a scientist of some sort There is it there are two sides of the coin, right?

We see the public persona and then there's of course the the person as a man who they are behind the scenes. Can you tell us a little bit about how what was Jonathan Edwards like as a person? Based upon what we know about him historically, I would imagine that obviously we have his works.

We have his thought his philosophies theology. What about his character? What sort of person was he given the time he lived in in the context in which we find him? Yes, I.

Don't think you would be surprised Eli if I told you that for some people he came across as rather austere and removed. And that was that was part of his personality. But among friends and family, he was a very warm and outgoing individual.

What do you mean by austere. What is that you. You know, you know men in the faith that you've you've long admired and and they.

People who like.

Scared to approach them. Okay, and there is a certain there is a certain sense in which.

You.

Know your estimation of a person might fall as you get to know them. Right, and it's a wonderful thing when you can have someone who is a great in the world whether it be the church or that or the outside world.

It's a great thing when you can get to know them more and hold them in even higher esteem, right? Getting to know them more and and I think that's the way it was with Edwards based upon. What was said about him by men for instance who lived with with he and his family as.

As in what we would call interns. Okay, astral interns back in those days. You would get your your theology your Bachelor of Arts and then your Master of Arts and religion or theology. And then you would go off and spend a year or two with a with a prominent Minister live with him and his family and be trained and then you'd be I guess.

Assuming you did did well you would be certified to to receive to be ordained and it's to receive a call and be ordained. And he had he had several men. That fell into that that that category, okay, but he's no and so some of what they have said Samuel Hopkins Bellamy.

And others have all said that they were that he was very approachable very down-to-earth. Especially with his family. He was a loving man his relationship with his wife Was Sarah was amazing and that's how and on his deathbed.

He described his relationship with his wife as as as a an amazing relationship that he prayed would survive into heaven.

And.

They they clearly loved one another. Sarah and he had. Let's see. How many children did they have. 10 or 11? Oh, wow. Yeah, it was a big fan and Family as well. He had About the same number of Sisters so he was I believe the only Only boy in his family growing up.

I think I read that. Yes, Windsor, Connecticut.

So guy, right.

He never I never got the impression that he was that he complained about that, okay he.

So.

And he also but he was also Involved with the first Great Awakening. In fact, he was one of its practitioners and one of its defenders and that put him at odds with you know clergymen who Thought less than highly about the the awakening.

Right, and that's that's probably what he's best known for. And of course the sermon centers in the hands of an angry God is is the revival a revivalist sermon if you will usually given as a First first-class example of what that what a sermon in that setting looked like.

Hmm.

Now I.

Would I suppose this is normal for people back then? But but did Jonathan Edwards hold a personal diary or a journal he did that is of interest to historians who study his work.

It did not. He did not keep it consistently across the years, however. So there is there are there is a journal in a diary that that take up certain periods of time. Okay, however, he was very he read with a quill in hand.

So he was very he created these semi private notebooks. Of which the most famous is probably the miscellanies. And that was it's called that because it covers virtually any topic that crossed his mind.

There are also similar books on there's a commentary at Bert a virtual commentary on the book of Revelation. There's his blank Bible, which was a similar thing except that it was commentary a running commentary on the scriptures.

His brother-in-law gave him a Bible that had a blank page between every page of the Bible and that allowed him to.

Write, that's the first journaling Bible, right? Yep first.

Right, yes. His handwriting is very hard to decipher. Let me tell you. Well, so is his reading if it's in print. It's well that too I mean. So you got double double whammy with his hand. His penmanship is not right.

It's not. It's not messy. It's just very fine. Wrote small and He also. Was I gonna say. He's also as a deep theologian. I was going to say. You had mentioned that he's called America's greatest theologian.

George Morriston has said that. The America's Augustine or Augustine Robert. Yeah, his name escapes me. Wrote a book. Is that that where he dealt with that. He's a Lutheran neo-orthodox guy. Jensen Robert Jensen Jonathan Edwards.

If.

Someone wanted to dive deep into a Biography, what would you recommend people. As it would be it would be George Morris and Jonathan Edwards a life.

At C 2003 Yale University Press, it's a full-scale like 700 page book. There is an audio version inaudible. Okay read by of all people. Jim Dennison, ah I've spoken to Jim a long time ago. Very briefly.

He's the he's the the reader. He does a very good job in my opinion.

Reading Edward, what was the author's name?

George Martin the Reformed historian.

Okay.

God and that's the go-to you would recommend for someone who wants to. Hey I want to dive a little deeper into there are there are.

Two. Well, he wrote another follow-up kind of a shorter volume. Okay that Is came afterward where he's comparing and contrasting.

Then.

John Jonathan Edwards with Ben Franklin. Hmm and he's got a new one that's due out any. Pretty soon any day now. That's a follow a third volume on Jonathan Edwards. So That is that's exciting. It'll be interesting to see what he has to say.

New and improved you might say but I would say the first volume Jonathan Edwards a life is an excellent Excellent.

Volume, okay. Yeah, I'll definitely check it out. I just kind of died kind of downloaded it right now. Give me some morning morning reading. Yeah, okay.

Those those are the best biographies there is he and Murray's Biography, which is called Jonathan Edwards a new biography, but it came out in 1981. So I'm not quite sure that whether they should they might want to think about renaming it.

It's a new biography, that's an old one. It's an old new one. Yeah. Look van Tillen paradox there. So, okay, so we have we have Jonathan Edwards, we know who he is historically. There are some interesting questions that we can we can ask.

There's some interesting discussion in the chat about him owning slaves and the abolition movement. I'm sure there's some interesting Details of his life there, but I want to kind of explore his thought more than his person.

Although I it would I'd be remiss to not ask those questions about him. Let's talk a little bit about his philosophy. What is Jonathan Edwards contribution to the field of philosophy and then we'll shift into his theology and right?

I want to talk a little bit about his reformed theology. Occasional ism. Hopefully we can talk about that as well. And then we'll shift in towards the back end the top of the hour some apologetic application.

So, let's try that. So so what are in your opinion Jeff? What are the top three? Philosophical contributions of Jonathan Edwards.

Well That's a I've not ever I've not given it a lot of thought in terms of topics, but let me think here first thing I would want to say is his philosophy is what has been called a Trinitarian Theistic idealism.

Okay, and if any of your Watchers or listeners are familiar with George Berkeley the Anglican Bishop philosopher Who was a very much an idealist? What was that George is it George Berkeley or George Barclay pronounced Barclay, but it's spelled Berkeley.

Is that the guy that says things only exist if someone is perceiving yeah.

Hippie.

Okay. Yes.

Being is to being for as being is being perceived.

That's right.

He had like some weird view that every so things exist because God is always perceiving everything even though we don't write.

Edwards has some similarity to that.

Okay.

Edwards, I don't think Edwards actually would deny the reality of Created reality, okay matter he would but but he does say that that.

That.

The spirit is more important than the physical the spiritual world. Spiritual world is more important than the in the physical.

Edwards, yes, so so you would say Edwards was an idealist. What what is.

Not just me any anybody who studied his thought. It was granted that his Phyllis of the school in which he would be classified would be idealism. Right now not everything that that means in the broader context.

Okay, he's he's. He's re he's responding to Hobbesian Materialism so you understand his historical context remember 1703 to 1758. So he's he's ministering in the context of Definitely of enlightenment.

And the rise of deism. That's one of the problems he faces and tackles in his preaching and in his writing. He tackles the the challenge of deism. So, I guess so that would be a description of his overall philosophical thrust.

Hmm, he Puts the spiritual world God in the spiritual world as more important than the physical world. So there is that kind of platonic element in his thought but it's it it will be circumscribed or constrained by his reformed biblical.

Theology, right and I want to get into that but just real real quick folks if you guys are listening in and you're enjoying this conversation I really appreciate if you do me a solid and hit the like button.

And share this if you if you know other people who like kind of discussions on You know historical figures and important figures throughout Christian history You know, feel free to share it. That'd be super super helpful.

Now. I want to ask you about really in my in my opinion Jonathan Edwards masterpiece the freedom of the will or I was gonna say bondage of the will which isn't that's.

I.

Remember, I have to take off my headphones for this when I when I read portions of freedom of the will and people think I look smart because you know I can talk about priest up and transcendental arguments and I wear glasses.

I read the first page and I was just like.

This.

Is me after this is me buying a Jonathan Edwards book. This is me reading the introduction. I Turned to Jerry Lewis. I can't do it. I get this crazy. It's a It's definitely a challenge but When someone does the work to kind of Plow through it.

I mean, it's it's amazing whether you agree with him or not. He's got such great nuance and subtlety and such a difficult topic and he's so thorough. Why don't you kind of share with us? Jonathan Edwards view.

I mean, can you can you.

Encapsulate everything he wanted to say about the freedom of the will, you know without getting into details and being overly nuanced. Which is what I would do if we had more time to discuss just freedom of the will.

But freedom of the will is Edwards defense of What we call compatibilism, right which is the compatibility of divine sovereignty and human responsibility right to to To allude to the da Carson book on on that subject divine compatibility.

And so Edwards is Edwards is critiquing The idea that that The idea of what's called libertarian free will right? Okay libertarian free Will is the idea that we can choose either A or B? equally likely and What using the language of equilibrium?

So we might say Psychological or epistemological equilibrium, but the point is he's defending the reform Typically reformed view and unless you're certain scholars who I will not name Who who are challenging the view that Edwards?

That Edwards was advocating the standard reformed view of of the freedom of the will. It is I think He has been shown to hold with his creativity and unique idiosyncratic way of stating things he is defending the.

The.

The the reformed view of Compatibility divine human compatibility and That can be demonstrated because he Both in the book freedom of the will but in many other places he talks about primary and secondary Causality right and in the back that brings into view occasionalism, but I don't want to go there yet.

So so basically he's he's challenging The the idea that that Fallen man can choose to follow Christ Out of his own.

In the libertarian sense, yeah. Folks who watch the channel here should be familiar. We I've had a Christian philosopher Guillaume been young who I think is one of the leading defenders of compatibilism.

Which Jeff just defined for us and we speak of libertarian freedom. That is a an incompatibilist perspective which holds to a View of the ability to do otherwise known as the categorical ability versus say what the compatibilist would hold which is which is known as The conditional ability to do otherwise.

So folks are interested in that discussion in-depth discussion I had I had Guillaume been young on like two or three times. Where we talk like two hours a piece on that topic and answers a bunch of different.

Folks are are familiar with the idea What Edwards talks about and in technical detail. Will warn you it's not.

It's tough. It's not morning reading with.

It can be tough going but but he he's. Basically, what he says is we are free to do what we want to do and we will do what we want to do. And of course that brings into view the very idea of divine human ability, right.

A book that Builds off of Edwards, but it's not a summary of Edwards as such is a really good book called no place for sovereignty Which I don't even know if it's still in print. It's an IV people. You wait right here.

Wait, you have it here my friend. Okay which Was one of those books I might tell you folks while he's away from the screen. Oh, he's back. Do you have it? That's it we'll cover. I was gonna say the purple color came McGregor, right?

It's actually a book.

Prince is old.

Tackling open theism in Clark Pinnock in particular and and. That book is is pretty good. I would say a pretty good Encapsulation of Edwards is Teaching and freedom of the will. So if you if you if you if what I've said just now is off-putting to you.

Start with. No place for sovereignty. Yeah. For folks who are interested actually, there's like a glossary of terms so if like when he uses the technical terminology that you can look it up in the back and.

There's some. I mean, this is an excellent book. I had a friend who suggested it suggested it to me. Let me see here one of the. I mean, I've marked up this book. I read it a while ago.

Yeah, when I got it in 95 between 94 and 96 it came out. It was after I became reformed. Right, and and so it was. But it was it said I was gonna tell people. It's one of those books that I said said to myself.

I wish I had written this. It's so good.

It is very good, this is the book I would wished I had written. I know Jeff someone who's anti Calvinist and Doesn't like Calvinism at all but in his top five books to read to properly understand a good strong case for a Calvinistic understanding that this was in his top five.

Wow. Well, that's good. Good to know. Yeah.

That that they're that that he's reading. Well written material right? Yeah, so that's that that that would be a good primer before reading freedom of the will itself although I would also say that Steve Nichols Guided Jonathan Edwards a guided tour of his life and thought has a good chapter on the freedom of the will in his book.

Okay, that that's a good another good place to start. Sure Freedom of the will is is is more honored in the breach than in the observance. It is that night. It has not been refuted, but it has been ignored.

There is.

You can't say stuff like that. I have some provisionist to watch my channel. They're gonna make a three-hour video response.

The other thing is not everybody like John L. Girardeau Southern Presbyterian theologian had some problems with Edwards view and.

I.

Think.

Neftali press definitely press and Reformation heritage books has just published a new edition of his book on freedom of the real.

And so I understanding Jeff it. What's his name. Oh John Gerstner, dr. John Gerstner was a Jonathan Edwards scholar of sorts. What I mean, would you recommend anything by him?

95 or 99 .5 of his work. Yes. My dissertation was actually a critique of Gerstner on a particular element. No, I only wish his rational biblical theology was still in print. The three volume set. Okay, he was he was actually one of the editors of in the original config the original configuration for the Yale edition of the works of Edwards.

He was going apparently they were going to do a volumes by Books of the Bible oddly stricken strangely enough and he was working on the Romans volume. Okay, and Somehow that fell through and so a lot of the material that he produced for that ended up I've been told in the rational biblical theology.

Yeah.

Yeah, Gerstner, of course. What he the mentor of R .C. Sproul? By the way, they both sounded the same they did. They both come from the Pittsburgh area, right?

I heard I heard that.

Or a watcher of Sproul for in a reader of Sproul for many years before I actually Set my eyes and ears on Gerstner and when I heard Gerstner I said he sounds exactly like R .C. Sproul.

But well Jeff they call it the Gerstner growl where he talks. Yes, and when God created.

Sometimes do that.

Mistaken.

Right.

Gerstner. Gerstner's has a I think. There's the video series. That's also available in audio of his. He has a whole series on Jonathan Edwards, which is worth worth.

People's looking at and that's available probably on the Ligonier app, right? It's probably is it's it's on YouTube.

Okay, I've not looked to see if it's available through the Ligonier.

Sure, I'm sure it is. They've got the John Gerstner apologetics handout series and yeah.