Interview with the Babylon Bee | Theocast

Theocast Interview Introduction and Listener Updates

Hi, this is John. Today on Theocast, Justin and I were recently interviewed by the Babylon V podcast, and it was fun. In the beginning, they wanted to get to know us a little bit, so there's some fun questions there, but the rest of the podcast really is about the gospel.

They are asking us about what is unique about Reformed theology, Covenant theology. We got to talk about law gospel distinction in times, which was a little bit of fun, but we also had conversations about the chosen, how pietism and revivalism have influenced the American culture's understanding of Christianity.

It was a lively conversation, and we really hope you guys enjoy. We enjoyed getting to know them, but more importantly, we enjoyed getting to be able to share the gospel and explain the hope of Christ, and so we hope you're encouraged by that as well.

Stay tuned.

If you'd like to help support Theocast, you can do that by leaving us a review on iTunes and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Plus, we have a Facebook group if you'd like to join the conversation there.

Thanks for listening.

Lighthearted Interview Banter and Getting to Know the Hosts

All right. Hey, guys. Welcome to the Babylon Bee interview show. We're really, really excited to have these two guys here today. We also have Sam Greer here with me. I'm Jarrett, and with us today is Justin Perdue and also Jonathan Moffett.

Moffett? Moffett. Jonathan Edward. Jonathan, Moffett, Justin Perdue. And you guys do Theocast. Yeah. Just for my sake, really quick, and for people listening, what is Theocast? Yeah. And what do you guys do?

What's your goal?

Yeah. It's a podcast that was started by four pastors about eight years ago, and the whole design of it was we wanted to have more theological conversations so our congregation would benefit from it. And then over the years, it's kind of morphed and changed and grew, and the hosts have changed.

And right now, I guess it's going in our fourth year. Yeah, going on four. And so Justin and I, we use it as a way to encourage and talk about theological subjects that are hard to do on a Sunday morning for our congregation, and then obviously we have listeners around the world.

But it's been fun. We really try and focus it from a pastoral and reform perspective. So we want to try and take some subjects that can be really complicated and hard and make them a lot more simple and practical.

That's what I like about it.

So you guys are very pastoral. I like that about you guys, and I like even talking with you beforehand. It just feels like you guys are pastors at heart, shepherds at heart. Okay, normally you have a hat on.

Yeah? To say normally is maybe an overstatement, but I do wear hats from time to time. So give me one.

Okay, I have two of these Babylon Bee hats for you guys.

So you guys should know that I get a lot of flack on social media for the fact that I wear flat bill hats. There you go. Isn't that cool? Sorry, there we go. Ooh. Yeah, there you go. Move this. We're going to hope that it just cooperates again.

All right. You know, the flat bill hat is cool. I have an unusually large head, so we're going to see how this goes.

So I just got a comment. Somebody commented online last week. You want me to wear this now? Yeah, oh yeah, of course. There was a very strange comment, but it said, the bald guy's head, like baldness, is accentuated 100%.

They actually wrote 100 by wearing that backwards baseball cap. So I guess it makes me look 100 more bald to have a hat on. All right, so let me see. Did it affect you? Oh, yeah. No, that looks good.

Oh, that's great. Does it work? Not flattened out. You could flatten it out a little more. I'm trying. To make it look like. I'm trying. I'm going to work on that in the next five minutes.

Okay, we'll keep working on it. I will. See if we can get it on brand. That's right.

So we had a fun segment idea we wanted to throw at you guys. It's going to be a little silly, but it's going to be fun. We're here for it. You'll need both your hands. All right. Here's what we're going to do.

I'm working on my hat right now, Sam. Justin, you'll hold your left hand up. John, you'll hold your right hand up. We're going to throw some questions at you guys. It's going to be who is more, like who's got a higher max bench.

And then without looking at each other, point at the person. So I hold my left hand? Yes. So I can't be able to see it? Yes, so John can't see it. All right. That's a good hat on you. Here, here? Yeah, exactly.

Just like that. So here we go. This is going to be rapid fire. We'll switch off. Just like this. This or this? All right. I'll take the first one. So like this or that? Exactly. I'll take the first one.

Jared and I will switch off. Yeah, there we go. Who has, again, you guys have been running a podcast together for years. You know each other pretty well. Yeah. Who has a higher one rep max for bench press?

Unanimous. It's like one of those wedding games. Exactly.

Newlyweds. You actually have to do bench presses to know. We're just not back to back.

That's right. Wait, who's been to more countries? I don't know. Huh.

Okay, now you get it. Now you get it. Yeah, should we unpack this? Let's unpack this. You guys disagree. How many countries have you been to? I think I've been to at least 12.

Okay. You got me then, because I'm probably around 10-ish. Okay. How? Why?

12? Well, we went to Romania. So we had to go through like seven different countries just to get there. And then outside of that, I've been to like five other. Mexico, obviously. Obviously. If you're a Southern California Christian, you've got to do a Mexico.

Yeah, I'm going to go and give that one to you. So yeah. There you go.

I'm going to resume my podcast. Yeah, I was going to say, Justin's doing the bicep. Okay, next question. Who preaches longer sermons? Hey, how long are we talking? 50 minutes. He's 50. Not bad. That's pretty good.

I try and stay below 40. Respect. John mocks me. I'm just not that good. He does a lot of backhanded comments about long sermons. I know what he means.

I just try to take it in stride. You know, the long sermon is a dying art. Who is more likely to hit under par in an 18-hole golf game? Right now, it would be me. Yeah, because I don't play a lot right now.

That's good. At one time. At one time, I would have been him, but not right now. All right.

Who has more refined tastes in food? Who's got the better palate? Oh, Justin. Do you have a cooking interest?

He's just a foodie in general. I live in Asheville, North Carolina, man. It's a foodie town. Yeah, food, drink, all that stuff. I love food, but he definitely loves it more than I do.

But we both kind of do.

Do you swish and swirl when you're drinking coffee? Oh, man.

Wafting? I don't know. I don't know if we're that much of a coffee aficionado. I mean, are we allowed to talk about... Like specifics?

Yeah, you're reformed. I just wanted to test the waters. So, yeah, we both are bourbon guys. Oh, that. We like... Of course. That's one of our questions. Oh, okay. There you go. So we're bourbon guys.

We like red wine. I mean, so, yeah, do a little swirl and stuff like that with those.

I mean, we'll get into it later, but do you guys smoke cigars? Last night on the beach, baby. Dang, dude. And we'll probably have more while we're here. That's right. Good to know. Maybe we need to have one.

Well, that might be a great idea. After recording.

I mean... After recording. I'm changing clothes before we go to the seminary. That's right.

We got to change clothes, so we're good.

That's the most masculine thing about being a cigar smoker is like scrubbing the leather on your car because your wife gets annoyed by the smell. Come on, man. Oh, I don't do it in the car.

Yeah, I don't smoke in the car either. Yeah.

You know, I used to smoke much more. I haven't for about four months now, but anyway.

I tried my first cigar with Dan at a reading group for like a bunch of guys who read Chesterton. G .K. Chesterton.

And it was a hoot. Dude, that's like the most reformed thing you just said right there.

So I got this idea that I think will be a funny sketch. Who knows? But it'll be a funny sketch to catch someone's internal monologue. Like, don't cough, don't cough, don't cough. Oh, no, it's going out.

It's going out. Just someone trying to play cool when they're around a bunch of burly. So is my bill flat enough right now? It looks good on you.

Looking good. I think it's kind of perfect. All right. So who's been married longer? You. How long have you been married?

It should be 20 years for me. Oh, my goodness. I got married young. Badang. 13. He finds a wife five years later. The child husband. You don't hear about that. Yeah, no, I was married when I was 22. That's awesome.

What is your wife's name? Not far from here. Her name is Judith. We have four kids.

That's so sweet. Judith's a great name. What about you? How long have you been married? 10. 10 years. Yeah, so I got married later. I got married at 30. I'm married to Michelle. We also have four kids.

Four kids. And what are their ages? Oldest just turned nine.

The youngest is four. So they're like four years and change apart. Got it. So it was, yeah. Still, there's a lot going on in the Purdue house. Yeah.

Very few dull moments. I looked on your church's About Us page, and I remember just noting the four kids all had pretty Reformed names. It was like Charles and Adam and Spurgeon. Especially Knox. Knox?

That was who I was thinking of.

John Knox, yeah. What are the rest of the names? So Karis, Greek word for grace. Oh, yes. She's my oldest. Then Titus. Jane, obviously not biblical, but that's my wife's best friend in college, so I lost that one.

And then Knox, my family goes back to Scotland, and my great ancestor was a part of John Knox Church. I was like, that's such a killer name. Renaming our son. What's your Scottish clan? What are you guys from?

Actually, there's an actual Moffittsville. There's a Moffittsville. Because we're Macintyres, we're on the island of Skye. Oh, yeah. Maybe we have Probably.

Relatives in common. I'm a Greer. My grandmother is Irish, like Irish Catholic. Her hair redder than mine. Oh, wow. But there might be some Scottish in there. That's saying something.

Mick Greer. Yeah. That's saying something. That's saying something. My last name is French, so you guys can just tolerate me. I'm actually so smart. His last name is French. Oui, oui. Purdue means... It's perdition, so lost.

So there it is. Mine means the master. Yours is better, in terms of mastery. Yeah. Who's next on the questions? Your maître, you. Is it me?

You. Who? Hands up. Oh my goodness. Muscles up, guns up, sons out, guns out. Who is more Reformed? I don't know if I can answer that.

I don't know. I think that's a 50 -50. That might be a legit toss-up there. Yeah. I don't know where we would disagree on that. Yeah. Good answer. Non-answer. Kind of unequally Reformed.

I don't know if there's anything we would disagree on. Let me do a freebie question. Cut that one. Forget it. Here we go. Who's more likely to be in a football video game from a couple years ago? Well, more than a couple.

More than a couple. Wow. Now, can you elaborate on your presence in a football video game? Yeah.

This was from the mid -2000s, early 2000s. Yeah. EA Sports has a franchise, NCAA Football, in the year. When I was playing as a college guy, it was on the EA Sports game for a few seasons. That's really cool.

RB number 35. I could say more, but I don't know that we need to. There was a lamentable lawsuit that a number of college athletes filed against EA Sports, which took the NCAA Football game away from all of us for about 10 years.

I feel like most lawsuits are lamentable. Yeah. I like how you said that. A lamentable lawsuit. Yeah. Hey, well, let's get into some theology stuff and some kind of the stuff that you guys are all about.

I've got a question loaded up.

Reformed Theology, Covenant Theology, and the Big Story of Scripture

All right. So, Jarrett here has not yet invited John Calvin into his heart. Now, it's my sneaking suspicion because I...

But is John Calvin standing at the door knocking?

That's what I want to know. He's been knocking for like 30 years.

I'm an even more lost case because I'm a Reformed Baptist dispensationalist. Yeah, we'll pray for you, bro. Pray for me. So, it's my sneaking suspicion that Dan, our podcast interviewer, considers Jarrett and I to be his mission field for going full Reformed.

No, Dan.

I'm not even sure he thinks we're Christian. We're not Reformed enough.

We're not even covenantal. So, we want to give you guys an opportunity. What's your 30-second elevator pitch for going full capital R Reformed?

Oh, well, we're not even capital R. Reformed, but...

I mean, depending on who you talk to. I mean, one of your former guests would not consider us to be. Anyways, to answer his question, I'll let you go first. No, you go first, John. I want to defer to you, and then I'll just come in from the top turnbuckle if need be.

Well, I think the reason...

So, I grew up independent fundamental Baptist, hardcore dispensationalist, graduate from the Master's Seminary, so very familiar with dispensationalism my entire life. And I think what really drew me over was understanding the overarching theme and purpose of the Bible.

And so, you have this glorious creation in the beginning, and then obviously Adam destroys it, and then the whole world is in disarray, and you don't even really get to go one sentence before God swoops in and says, okay, here's the plan of redemption.

And so, the whole story of the Bible is the unfolding plan of redemption based upon God's sovereign promises that will not fail. That's what won me over, was that this was not in man's hands, because when it was, it completely failed.

It's in God's hands. And every time man gets involved, God lets it completely unravel and steps back in and goes, you're unfaithful. I'm faithful. And this is why we ended up getting Christ, who comes from the line of Judah, from the line of David.

And so, yeah, I think what's so refreshing about Reformed theology, and specifically covenant theology, is that it really succinctly puts the Bible in one glorious picture. And when you read it, you never felt lost, because you're like, well, we're progressing along this glorious story of God restoring what Adam destroyed.

This is why Jesus is called the second Adam.

When even the promise of a Redeemer in Genesis 3 .15, effectively what you have in the rest of the entire Bible from there to the end of Revelation 22 is the unfolding of the accomplishment of that promise.

And a Reformed covenantal perspective on the Scripture highlights that in a way that I think is pretty glorious and gives us a lot of assurance, a lot of peace, helps us to see how the whole Scripture really is a testimony about Christ.

Jesus meant what he said. When he says that if you believe Moses, you believe me, because Moses wrote about me, covenant theology helps us to see how that's especially true. When he says, too, that you search the Scriptures, thinking that in them you find eternal life, but it is they that bear witness about me, it's true.

That from the jump, Christ was the plan. And a Reformed covenantal perspective, I think, makes that very plain for the congregant to see.

I love that, because my...and I would not disagree with any of that. I think that's all true.

No, amen. Because you've got a redemptive historical understanding of the Bible.

Right. And I think the covenant idea is interesting, because then you carry it on into your eschatology as well. You can take it further. We just interviewed Kevin Sorbo this week about his new movie, The Left Behind Movie.

And it was a really...I mean, it's an interesting movie. It's an interesting take on...it's probably, of all the Left Behind movies, it might be the best one. It's one of those... You watched it? I did, yeah.

I watched it earlier this week. Did you guys screen it in that dope room? We did. We did. We screened it right over there, and it was a lot of fun. But all this to say, you know, dispensational, premillennial, pre...what is it?

Pre-Trib, all that kind of stuff ends up sort of getting played out with covenant theology. And you can...so how would it...so going further, you kind of said it goes up to Christ and Christ looks back.

Moving forward into Revelation and eschatology, like, how would you guys...how would the covenant theologian interpret that?

Yeah, I mean, so I think that if we're doing theology well, our eschatology really is downstream from some higher-level theological convictions. That's good. That makes sense. So for us, I can at least speak for myself.

I mean, we'll just go ahead and say all these things. I mean, may as well do it, right? So John and I being Reformed guys would be amil in terms of our eschatological position.

Explain for our listeners what amillennialism is. Yeah, in brief.

We would not hold to a literal thousand years, but we understand that Scripture, in terms of how prophecy works and how prophecy is fulfilled, there's a lot of typological language where something means this in its own context, and it's significant in that context, but it's pointing to something other and greater that is to come, those kinds of things.

There's metaphorical language used in the Scripture in terms of how things will come to be fulfilled. And so an amillennial perspective, we believe that we are living in the last days, the era of the Messiah, and there's a number of different places in the Scripture where we could go to look for that.

But we do believe that Christ is coming back at the end of history, that the millennium in that sense, the era of the Christ, has been inaugurated and will be consummated with His return when He will come and establish His kingdom, and heaven will literally come down, right?

The new Jerusalem will come down, and God will dwell with us in a redeemed heavens and a redeemed earth.

A second coming, not a third coming.

Correct. Yeah, and just to add to that, when he says not literal, sometimes people think, oh, then you don't take the Bible literally. I just watched a video of you doing some satire in there, and you knocked it out of the park.

But you really didn't knock it out of the park. I was using what? An allegory or a metaphor. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes I get really confused. You weren't knocking it out. I didn't want to say the wrong thing.

That's right. But when it says, Jesus, God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, is it only a thousand hills? Correct. Or is the point of it, He owns a lot? 999. Exactly. 1 ,000. So when we're talking about Amillennialism and Reformed covenant theology, what we're saying is that the Bible has purposes and intentions.

If you ever read the book of Ezekiel, Ezekiel uses all kinds of crazy images of pots and poop and hair and this and that. I mean, it's crazy what he does. And you're not meant... The reader would never take that literal.

So then someone said, well, you're not taking the text literal. And I said, we're taking it as it was literally intended. Even if it's thinking of Ezekiel, right?

I mean, we're gonna geek out for a minute. You guys just stop us, okay? In the book of Ezekiel, continue to think about how does the Scripture speak? How does God reveal His plan through Christ? So in Ezekiel 34 and Ezekiel 37, you get a lot of language about how God is going to gather His people from the nations.

He's gonna bring them into their own land. But what is that talking about? Because He never brought all of His people back into the land of Judah. I mean, there's a language in the Minor Prophets as well about how the borders of the Promised Land are gonna be expanded.

Well, that never occurred. Geopolitically speaking, that never occurred before Christ came. So what's the ultimate point of all of that talk about bringing the people of God into their own land? It's the new heavens and the new earth, right?

When God says that I will set over them one shepherd, my servant David. Well, David's been dead for a few centuries by that point. So He's clearly talking about David's greater Son who's coming. There will no longer be two kingdoms.

There will be one kingdom and there'll be one king, and it'll be David, my servant, who's gonna be their king. So this is just one example, kind of an object lesson in how we would understand Scripture and interpret it from a covenantal perspective and see how all of it is ultimately pointed to Christ and the plan of God to redeem sinners through Him.

And it's gonna be consummated one day in the new heavens and the new earth.

I'm preaching through Ezekiel right now, and I would say dispensatious. I like that sentence. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah. It's an unusual sentence. No, it's not. We just finished chapter 11 this last week.

And what's great about, like, you know, obviously I love all my dispensationalist brothers, and we agree, like, Christ is king and He's ultimate and the gospel is supreme, and those things are important.

It's where we get down into, like, well, you know, how are we dealing with this role? And it really is a hermeneutic. It's an understanding of science of, like, how are you gonna interpret these things?

And a good example of this is when I was doing a lot of research for Ezekiel, and even when I was transitioning into Reformed theology, a lot of people don't understand, like, historically dispensationalists believe that the temple is gonna be reinstituted and we're going to be doing animal sacrifices.

Sacrifices. The red heifer. That's right. So in... The problem is that, you know, Hebrews says to us that Christ is the one for all sacrifices and that the sacrificial system is no longer needed. But the picture, I think, is glorious.

Like, if... I don't ever think Ezekiel intended us to take it literal, because there are parts of it that dispensationalists will take literal, the rebuilding of the temple. The one part they won't take literal is the stream coming out of it.

Because what happens is the temple is finished, the doors open up, and the stream starts coming out of it.

Well, read Ezekiel 47 and then read Revelation 22. Exactly.

And then it gets to the city gates and it turns into this river, and then it gets outside the city gates and it turns into this massive, like, flood of water. And the tree of life is there. And it turns the desert into the basically new heavens.

It's a big metaphor of, like, from Christ, who is the ultimate temple, comes the stream of life, what's going to be the restoration of all things, not the sacrificial system that wasn't the design of it.

So, you know, those are just kind of some glimpses of, like, when you understand Scripture from a redemptive historic understanding. And I would say this one last thing. This is huge for Justin and I and all those who are Reformed.

We would look at the Bible and say there's these two polar opposites, law and gospel. Like, covenant of works is covenant of grace. And that really helps you keep clean cuts where most false religions and legalism and bad theology is when you take grace and law and you mix them together.

So Reformed theology to me was probably the greatest example of dividing those two and keeping them separate.

So I want to say this about Ezekiel because it's very encouraging. Yeah. So right after Ezekiel 47 and the language about the temple and the sanctuary and the river flowing out of it, you compare that to Revelation 22, it's great.

But then the last sentence of Ezekiel's book is he talks about the name of the city will be, the Lord is there. The Lord is there. And he's writing from exile to a people who are in exile. And it's like, but the name of the city is going to be that the Lord is there.

Like, He's going to be with us, He's going to dwell with us. If I can jump on what John just said, if you guys would allow us to do this. So, you know, why Reformed theology, right? So I think if this is more, I'm going to do the little rundown that we often do.

What does it mean to be Reformed? Because a lot of times people think, especially in the evangelical world, to say I'm Reformed means I'm a Calvinist. It means that I am Calvinistic in my soteriology, my understanding of salvation.

Right? That God is sovereign in salvation. You've asked Calvin into your heart. Yeah. Right. He's persistent. Irresistible grace, all that stuff. Turn me into a real jerk. He's going to knock. He's going to keep knocking.

It's okay. All the Calvinists I know. That's right. So, but for us to be Reformed, what does it mean to be Reformed? At Theocastle, we'll say it this way. The three Cs, it means we're covenantal, we're Calvinistic, and we're confessional.

Okay. But then we'll also say we uphold a law and gospel distinction, and then we understand and uphold the ordinary means of grace.

And you would say that law is an expression of the gospel. A law is an expression of grace. So we'll talk about it.

You want to talk about it a little bit? Yeah, it's time. That's a great question, and that's extremely important because it does relate to revivalism.

This is really important stuff. So the law and the gospel, I agree with John. A lot of people think the distinction between the law and the gospel, or a law and gospel distinction, is a Lutheran category.

Right? But it is not. Like, William Perkins was a Puritan and wrote verbatim that the distinction between the law and the gospel is a Reformed doctrine. It is not just a Lutheran one. There are a number of guys in the Reformed tradition who have written beautifully on the law and the gospel.

John Calhoun comes to mind and others. What effectively we mean here is that the Scripture in the Old and New Testament has law and gospel. So in the Old Testament, there's law and gospel. In the New Testament, there's law and gospel.

Whenever we read in the Scripture anywhere of what God requires of for righteousness, like, do this for righteousness, that's law. Whenever we read of what God has done for us and gives us in the Lord Jesus that we receive by faith, that's gospel.

Right? And so that distinction is important. They're complementary with an E, right? The law and the gospel in God's economy of salvation. But they ought never be mixed. And we could riff on this for a while at some point.

Maybe we'll circle back around to it. We could even talk about some passages where the law and the gospel collapse.

The Galatian heresy is that exact same thing. So Paul was talking about you're mixing now what Christ has done. So the easiest way I always like to describe law and gospel. Jesus' salvation through the works, yeah.

Yep. So gospel is done. Because think about it. What's another two words for gospel? Good news, right? So is news potential or past? It's past. Past, right? I'm not... He's the writer. That's right. I'm not reporting to you what might happen.

That's not news. News is I'm reporting to you what has happened, right? So when we say good news, listen to what Jesus did. There's no potential there. It's all an announcement of an accomplishment. But the law is all potential.

It's a do, right? If you do this, then you will be accounted as a good person. You'll be counted as righteous. So this is why, like, the greatest example we love to use is the rich young ruler that walks up to Jesus and he says, What must I do to enter the kingdom?

So Jesus doesn't give him the gospel. He goes, All right, if you want to know what you need to do, you need to keep the law. You'll notice he never gives him grace.

On this passage, yeah, so the guy asks, What do I need to do? And Jesus says, Well, keep the commandments, to which he says, Well, I've done that. And then Jesus begins to turn the temperature up and dump the full weight of the law on that man's conscience.

He says, All right, well, if you're going to be perfect, you still lack something, right? And then he tells him three things. Sell everything you own, give it to the poor, follow me. It's like, Okay, what's that about?

Because a lot of times, here's what you hear. You don't talk about a collapsing of law and gospel. People then say, Well, we need to surrender all for Christ in order to be saved.

It's like the Platt book that you were talking about. Oh, brother, I knew.

I was like, And we're about to start talking about radical and all kinds of other things. Orange books and whatnot. Yeah, a lot of orange books. But a lot of people say this. All right, to surrender all for Christ is the good news.

Pick up your cross. Right? And we need to at least be willing to surrender all for Christ in order to be saved. That is not the point that Christ is making. He says, Sell everything you own, give it to the poor, and follow me.

If you say you've kept the law, that means that you have loved God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and you've loved your neighbor as yourself. Prove it. Prove it by doing this. Perpetually, perfectly.

He leaves dejected. The disciples go. They're freaking out, right? Because Jesus says it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich person to be saved. And the disciples lose their minds.

Now, to us, this doesn't make sense. Because to us, we're like, Oh, yeah, love of money and all that kind of thing. That's what we think. So, like, Oh, yeah, what Jesus said makes perfect sense because if you love money, you're not going to go to heaven.

But the disciples are wigging out. Why? Because as we think about covenant theology, Deuteronomy 28, right? Read Deuteronomy 28. Covenant blessings for obedience to the law. It's material. In the old covenant paradigm, man, I'm going to bless you.

I'm going to increase your crops and your children and all these kinds of things. So, the disciples are looking at a wealthy man. And the assumption there is this dude has a lot of wealth because he's been obedient.

God's blessed him for his obedience. The disciples literally say if he can't be saved. Exactly.

So, if he can't be saved, who can be saved, Jesus? Donald Trump. Man, bro, you just killed the punchline. Dang, Jared. But who can be saved? And Jesus says, Well, with man, it's impossible. It's impossible.

But with God, it's possible. Jesus said that, not John Calvin. Just to clarify. Or Trump. Or Trump, yeah. So, a law and a gospel hermeneutic as well is a big reason why I would say that I'm reformed. Yeah, and it is.

Now, really helpful. Go ahead. If someone wanted to catch conversations just like this with YouTube bouncing back and forth, if someone wanted conversations encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ...

Listen to you. I know. Well, what do you think the best podcast would be for them? Wow, I mean... Welcome to Theocast. Theocast is pretty great. These guys plug in with the merch.

Okay. Some people get a little upset because we do bounce back and forth and get a little fired up and it's like, hey, if you don't like that, then maybe listen to something else.

We just got to be like a live audience for YouTube. Yeah, there you go.

Well, you literally picked a subject that we cannot stop talking about, so... You did the old bait and switch.

You told us we were gonna talk about this thing. Then you start talking about law and gospel and it's like, here we go. We'll get there.

I'll jump back to a couple of things you were talking about.

I'll end it with this statement. I think one of the greatest detriments that has happened to the American church is a collapsing of the law into the gospel. Because people now think, oh, there's something...