Christian, There Will Be Sin (w/ Ken Jones) | Theocast

Theocast Introduction and the Claim That Christians Will Sin

Hi, this is John, and today on Theocast, Justin and I interview Ken Jones about a topic that we're passionate about, Christian, there will be sin. And yeah, it's a little punchy, but the point of it is, sometimes we forget that the experience of the Christian life is one that battles with sin, and often it's a very passionate war that sometimes we lose to, and how long can we struggle, and what kinds of sin can we struggle with?

We're going to look at this from a theological and biblical perspective. We hope you enjoy, stay tuned, and you want to listen to the very end, because in this particular episode, we went ahead and left the Simple Reformation podcast in, so you could hear what it's like to be a part of the SR podcast.

It's a great conversation, I know you're going to enjoy it, because we talk about church discipline, and at what point should a Christian question their salvation? We hope you enjoy. We are excited to announce we have a brand new podcast available called the Kingsmen Podcast.

It's where we are reclaiming biblical manhood by training and equipping men for the work of the kingdom. You can find it anywhere you download a podcast, you can also watch it on YouTube. We have new episodes that come out every Monday.

Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a Reformed pastoral and confessional perspective. If that was a jumbled mess for you, here it is, we're going to break it down.

We want to clarify the gospel and reclaim the purpose of the kingdom. And today we're going to do that with three of us, three passionate pastors who love Jesus. Your host, first of all, we'll start with Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

I am John Moffitt, I'm the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee. And yes, once again, we bribed them with enough money to come back on the podcast with us.

We sent a little seed gift down there to Miami.

We sent them a $25 Starbucks gift card. Yes, Pastor Ken Jones from Miami is joining us today from Glendale Baptist Church and from Saint and Sinner Unplugged podcast and many, many, many other things.

Speaker at Ligonier, writer at The Gospel Coalition, White Horsin, and if you've not heard our previous podcast, you are missing out. Christ-centered preaching, revivalism, and today might be the subject I'm most excited about.

And yes, we picked it about 30 seconds ago. We are going to be talking about Christian, there will be sin. Justin, please, my friend, bring us in. I don't want to waste any more time. Go for it.

Romans 7, Galatians 5, and the War Between Flesh and Spirit

If anybody's ever read Romans chapter seven or Galatians 5, 17, and you've thought to yourself, yeah, I don't know if truer words have ever been written, then today's podcast is for you. The fact that we, by a work of God, by sheer grace, have been caused to be born again.

We have been made alive with the Lord Jesus Christ. We've been united to him and we've been set free from bondage to sin and death and hell. We no longer live under the tyranny of sin. We have become obedient from the heart.

And at the same time, there is also another law that wages war in us, that when we want to do good, evil lies close at hand. We delight in the law of God and our inner man, yet the corruption of the flesh is always near and the spirit and the flesh are opposed to one another, as Paul says in Galatians 5, which keeps us from doing what we want to do.

If that resonates with you at all in your experience, I trust that the next half hour or so will not only resonate with you, but will also be encouraging to your soul as we think about what it's like to live as sinner saints in this fallen world, trusting the Lord Jesus Christ for our righteousness, united to him, knowing that everything that's his is now ours, and at the same time battling against the corruption of our flesh.

So we're going to talk about this theologically today. We're going to talk about it a little bit just in terms of our own experience. We may talk personally, I'm not sure, and then we're going to talk about it pastorally too, because we are three men who are justified and sinners at the same time, pastoring other people who are exactly the same way.

And so with all that, just by way of teeing it up for us, there's a lot that can be said.

Here.

Justification, Imputation, and Union with Christ

Ken, we like to be gracious hosts, man, whenever possible. So we want to throw it over to you and let you talk theologically, brother, help people maybe that have not thought deeply about these matters or are even asking the question, sinner saint reality.

You guys are using Latin terms, simul justus et peccator, what in the world are you talking.

About?

Can't be reformed if it isn't Latin, brother.

Yeah, there you go. But especially if you look at the doctrine of justification, and in the doctrine of justification, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, and our unrighteousness is imputed to Him, double imputation.

Those categories are very helpful so that we realize that what gives us a right standing before God is not infused righteousness. In the same way that Christ is treated as if He is guilty, but He is not guilty.

He does not consume our corruption. He stands in our place as our federal head, as our representative, and He offers up His righteousness so that we are treated as if we were as righteous as Him, because God has treated Him as if He were as impure as we are.

So the whole concept of imputation, and the reason that's so important is so that we know that those to whom the righteousness of Christ is imputed, they are being conformed to that. But there is an already not yet continuation with us.

We are already treated as if we are pure, but at our inner level, at the level of the soul, we still carry around the corpse of our fallen nature, which is why we still need to die. We still need to die, and so therefore, the reality is we are never intrinsically in and of ourselves what we are supposed to be.

But because we cling to Christ by faith, what is true of Him is true of us, and that's what gives us the power against the flesh, the way Paul expresses it in Colossians 3. If you have been raised with Christ, if you have been crucified with Him, then you are also hidden in Him.

Then he says in verse 4, Now therefore put to death the deeds of the flesh. Set your mind on things that are above, set your heart, your affections on things that are above where Christ is, and you're hidden in Him.

If I can just briefly interject, and then we'll just keep trucking along. What you just said is very important for us. Whenever the apostles write, the ways that they encourage the saints in obedience and toward godliness is always by pointing out to them their identity in Christ and their union with Him.

They always encourage the saints, effectively, live like who you are. The whole put off the old man, put on the new man stuff is entirely about this. This is who you are now in the Lord Jesus Christ. You've been united to Him.

You've been, like we said earlier, set free from bondage. You used to be that, but you're not that anymore, and now live this way. That's the apostolic pattern. Really important for us as we think about obedience and the pursuit of godliness.

The put off and the put on is always because of and not so that.

Exactly.

You're not chasing after anything you don't have.

Underline that and repeat that on replay.

Because of, not so that. Excellent.

Now, having said that, I put it this way. I used to say that there's a single statement that you can say to a Christian that can be very helpful and healing to them, but when you say it about a Christian, it can be condemning.

That is, you can't always tell a Christian by their behavior.

That's right.

So, when I tell you that, I'm telling you as a brother in the Lord, as I've had to hear it myself, it relieves me because I'm consumed by my guilt. If I believe these things, then how could I have done that?

So, when you tell me or when I tell you, you are not a Christian because of your behavior, that helps me because now you're guiding me to remind me what makes me a Christian is my faith in the person and work of Christ.

But when I have to say that about a Christian, that's a condemning thing. Because now what I'm saying is your behavior is inconsistent with your confession. So we begin there, that what makes us Christian is not what we do, it's what we believe.

And it's because of what we believe that it challenges our behavior. So, sometimes, and I know, I hope we're not misunderstood on this, therefore outside of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, we can't say that there is a sin that a Christian will not commit.

I'm going to say, there is no sin that a Christian should commit. There is no sin that it is not possible for a Christian to commit.

We've said it before, how long and how badly might a Christian sin? It's like they might sin really badly for a really long time, is exactly what you're saying. And this is never, like you said, may people not hear what we're not saying.

This is not a justification for foolishness. This is not a condoning of stupidity and sinful behavior. It's an acknowledgment of the reality of living life in a fallen world with a fallen nature still and being united to Christ at the same time.

That's right.

Well, not only that, you know, sometimes there are believers who are not shepherded. Well.

Sure.

And they find themselves, because they haven't been given the pure milk of the Word and they haven't been guided by elders and developed, they're trapped. You know, you listen to the things that Paul's telling the Corinthian church, and you just kind of cringe.

You're like, whoa, you guys are sleeping with prostitutes?

That's wild, man.

Whoa, guys. And he doesn't call them unbelievers. He's like, you guys got to stop that. You can't do that. You know, that's not acceptable. And this whole thing, like you're sleeping with your mother-in-law thing, man, you guys got to.

And, you know, we forget that Paul is dealing with people who, not that they might fall into sin. It's that they're in sin. And he's like, all right, look, can't do that. This is not how we live. And then he says, by the way, once you stop doing this sin, look, it's a battle.

It's a war. And you're going to be in the war until you die or Christ comes back. And so here's how you fight the flesh, right? If you walk by the Spirit, you will not give in to the flesh. And so there's this war that's going to go on.

And I have found in my own experience, and I know with you, man, because I've talked with you, and in pastoring, that when you do not hold this battle, this tension that's going on back and forth, you, first of all, make yourself vulnerable because you can become very confident in your own flesh.

Like, oh, you know, I have the Spirit within me. I'm not going to fall to that. That's foolish. I mean, why else would Peter say, be sober-minded, be alert, because you're under attack. He's coming after to trip you up, man.

What does he say in 2 Peter 1? Make you ineffective and unfruitful. Absolutely, right? And then the second thing is that pride can set in. What does Paul say? When you go to a brother who's trapped in sin, like, take heed, lest you too fall.

Be cautious, be humble, lest you too fall. So we walk around in a weak flesh, knowing that, I would say it this way, that a strong flesh, right, our flesh can overpower our spirit if we're not careful with that.

And so Paul talks about this, and I think the whole New Testament talks about this constantly, where if you do not realize that the Spirit lives within a body that is not redeemed, and if you're not careful, that body will absolutely go against the design of Christ, which is to reflect holiness, right?

For me, it has really helped. You know, I tell guys all the time, you know, because they'll come in and they're struggling, whatever it is they're struggling with, anger, lust, whatever. And they think, like, oh, there will come a moment where, like, that won't be a problem because I've been sanctified.

I'm like, no. There will come a moment where you trust the Spirit more than you trust your flesh, but you will never stop fighting the flesh, ever. It never stops. And that's the lie of what Satan basically is.

He either gets you to deny that there's a problem or he gets you to the point where you give up. It's like, well, I can't do this anyway, so I might as well just give in. And you live a secret life of sin because you're just like, well, I guess I just can't overcome this.

So I'm just going to pretend like it's not there. The language of sanctification is very severe.

Yeah.

Put to death. I mean, that's not like fix a habit. No, it's put to death. That's pretty severe. And it's very zombie-esque because when you put it to death, guess what happens?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're going to have to put it to death again.

Wow.

Yeah.

And again.

But I think that this, again, is where gospel distinctives are so important, gospel categories. And so we begin with understanding that the righteousness that gives us a right standing with God is credited to us.

But he's also conforming our affections to the degree that we love the righteousness for its own sake. But we struggle. And so, therefore, like I said, there is no sin that is not possible for a Christian to commit.

And so, therefore, this is where church life, the life of the church, the pastoral ministry, fellowship, all of these things are important. But we begin by recognizing that ours is an imputed righteousness on this side of heaven.

Yeah.

You know, it's going to be fleeting. It's going to be flawed. Even the righteousness that we do is going to be flawed standing on its own. But it's through Christ.

Right.

Therefore, it's accepted to God.

Right.

So as Christians deal with conflicting thoughts and recognize actions that are inconsistent with their confession and conviction, this is why you need continual reminders of who you are in Christ, the affirmation, confession, absolution, however you want to put it.

Be reminded that this is what we are in constant need of. And so when we look at some of the issues of the day, we can be consumed by these things. We can be overtaken. We can be overthrown in any given thing that is contrary to the law of God.

But we are still indwelt by the spirit. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, reminding us that we belong to him, the spirit of redemption. We belong to him. And he who has begun a good work in us will be faithful to complete it until the day of the Lord.

So we stand with brothers. We take sin seriously, and we should take it seriously, individually and corporately within the body.

Amen.

Christ Our Whole Righteousness and the Church's Ordinary Means of Grace

Well, we need to be perpetually reminded, it can't be said enough, that Jesus is our whole and only righteousness. And we receive that by faith. It's what he did in fulfilling the requirements of the law and also enduring its curse in our place.

And the righteousness of Christ is all the righteousness that we'll ever need. And it's the only righteousness, like you said, that we will ever have this side of the resurrection that would ever reconcile us to God.

And so that can't be said enough. And this is part of the reason why we gather week over week in the church, is to have Christ heralded to us like that. And to confess our sins together, to be absolved of our guilt, assured of our forgiveness, and then to come to the table, to be reminded that as surely as we hold the bread and the cup in our hands and eat and drink them, Christ died for us, and that we have been grafted into him.

We've been united to him. Our sins have been remitted. His blood is what the new covenant is founded upon, and it's about the forgiveness of sins. And so we come to receive that week over week, like you said, because the reality of our experience is something very different.

It's a war. It's conflict. It's struggle. It's difficult. And that's the day-over-day experience of the believer that the non-believer does not experience. And that needs to be stated as well.

I remember back in the early 90s, there were a lot of evangelical or scandals with televangelists and so forth. And we were down in San Diego at a Ligonier conference, I think it was, and Bob Godfrey made an interesting point.

He said the difference between this group of televangelists and their scandals and so forth, the form, it's not that we aren't capable of these things, but we have a category for it. We have a category for at the highest levels of those who are practitioners of ministry or participants in ministry who fall into egregious sin.

We have categories for that, so it doesn't have to be all or nothing. And it doesn't mean that we glorify, but I never will forget that.

That's a good observation.

That's helpful.

It is.

Go ahead, John.

Well, I was going to say to your point is that I think that's why we as pastors probably take extra precautions because we know the frailties of our flesh, that Satan's good at what he does. And if he can take us off of our capacity to preach the gospel like we have been, then he will.

This is why there's so many warnings for pastors to be like, hey, be aware, be alert, be accountable.

Yeah.

No, that's good.

And that's how we minister to the sheep because, like you said, yes, undershepherds have these struggles. But our sheep, and especially at a very young age, if we ground them in the message that we embrace, that we believe, and we ground them in law, gospel, and we articulate and open up what the law actually means, not just what it says, but what it means.

Yes.

Our young people are challenged with a lot of things, and so they have to know, A, that even that sin is forgiven, and then, B, also how to live in a world where sin is all over the place without compromise, compromise of your convictions and without corruption.

So how do we deal with these things? Because do we tell them to be jerks to others who don't hold to those same things?

Yeah, that's so good. In my experience, people who understand their frailty, this saint-centered reality, are quicker to repent and bolder to confess. When James says, confess your sins to one another, we're not afraid to hide it because we all expect there to be sin.

So one of the issues I deal with when I get people that come in from fundamentalism or that come from charismatic movements is that they hide their sin for so long that it's this infestation, and it's overtaken their life, where I'm like, brother, if you would have repented of that years ago, you could have got help to fight that.

Listen, I say this, and I know it makes people feel uncomfortable, but it's the fact. God expects you to sin. What does Hebrews say, right? Your great high priest is a sympathetic high priest because he understands your weakness.

He didn't sin, but he experienced what you—and then what does he say? With boldness—I mean, you don't have to be afraid that you sinned. He says, with boldness, run into the presence of God.

If we say we have no sin, the truth isn't in us, and we make God a liar.

That's right.

So it's pretty plain.

I love this when he says, you ask for grace and mercy in a time of need. And in my moment, I'm going, I can't think of a day when I don't need His mercy and grace. And he says, dear child, don't be timid.

The grace and mercy is something you could come in and get. Come on, come on in here and get this, because in order for you to make it every day, you're going to need my grace and my mercy. So come on, come in here and get it.

And what is mercy? Holding back judgment that is due, that you deserve. And what is grace? Giving merits that are undeserved.

That's right.

I saw a clip recently, and I shared it in preaching. It was a TikTok. A father had his 12—I think son must have been about 12 or so. And he's talking to his son. And he says, look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but didn't I tell you to clean your room?

And the son says, yeah. He says, man, that room is a disaster. And he doesn't just—he doesn't beat him up. He says, but we already talked about this, and I know it's your birthday. But I told you, and your room is just—it's in horrible shape.

He says, now go in your room. And the son opens the door, and the room has been cleaned for him. And so he looks around, and the father walks in behind him, and the kid drops to his knees. And then he stands up, and he embraces his dad.

And I think that's what we have to do. We are bringing people—we're reminding them with the law, of what the law says, and how disastrous our lives are without it. And then the father tells us, come here.

Come and sit down at the table.

And what we see—.

That's scandalous right there, brother.

But this is where—so this is not a Law and Gospel episode directly, but I wanted to say something earlier when you mentioned it, and you just said it again. This is why the right division of law and gospel and the right preaching of law and gospel is so important.

And I'm not even going to talk about the third use of the law right now. We need to rightly preach the first use of the law every Sunday, not just for the believer, but we need to preach the law in all of its holiness.

We preach the thunder of the law for all of us to be reminded of what the law requires and how we fall so far short. And then what do we do? Like, lest we get it twisted, we can't do this. We still can't.

Spirit-empowered obedience does not fulfill the requirements of the law. Only Christ fulfilled the law, and so then we herald Him. And this is so helpful for us to be reminded and have our minds and hearts recalibrated this way consistently because we're so prone to think in other ways.

Yeah, we think we lower the level of the law because we're like the rich young ruler. We think we've done it. John, you're from Southern California. You know on a clear day, you're driving down the freeway, and what do you see ahead of you?

The mountains.

That's right.

And on a clear day, those mountains seem so right next to you. It's like you can go out and touch it. But then the more you drive, the more you realize how far away you are.

That's right. Yeah, that's a good illustration.

The largeness of the mountain, nor its clarity, make you think you are there because you're a long ways away. That's Big Bear up there. Two hours away. You just run to it. But no, it's further away. And when we open up the law, it's not like, okay, then I'll get out of the car and run the rest of the way.

No, when we open up the law, people realize how far away they are.

That's right.

When you get to the base of that mountain, you realize how big it is too.

Exactly.

That's the other thing.

Law and Gospel, the Means of Grace, and the Life of the Church

Let's talk a little bit about how this kind of law and gospel preaching and this understanding of the sinner-saint reality, how it really is fruitful in the church and how it's helpful to the saints in this life as we're making our way as pilgrims and sojourners and exiles to the heavenly country.

If you're new to Theocast, we have a free e-book available for you called Faith vs. Faithfulness, A Primer on Rest. And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a Reformed confessional perspective.

You can get your free copy at theocast .org slash primer.

Yeah, it's the exact opposite of what we're kind of experiencing today where the individual is encouraged to be strong in their own strength. And what's powerful about Christ in the gospel is He says, first of all, you weren't alive in order to save yourself.

I made you alive. And now that you're alive, you're not able to keep yourself sustained. I have to do that. And you're not even able to grow. I have to do that. So every area of your life is the objective realities of outside of yourself, right?

So we are dependent upon the Spirit for our salvation. We're dependent upon it for our sanctification and our glorification. So what this looks like is that there is a constant battle between, am I going to trust that the Spirit is sufficient in His word, or am I going to trust in my flesh, right?

I love how Colossians, at the end of chapter 2, he says, these areas of discipline in the flesh appear to be wise, but they're of no value of stopping the indulgence of the flesh, right? Where does he then point you?

He points you to Christ, looking to Jesus. But what's interesting about the book of Colossians is that that's not a look individually unto Jesus, right? He says, I love this, let the word of God dwell in you richly, and then he tells you how that happens, right?

By admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual psalms, right? So the experience of the Christian life is one that is those who are empowered by the Spirit, who are gifted by the Spirit, use the means of the Spirit to sustain themselves until Christ returns.

So our salvation and our obedience to Christ, I love this too, right? Hebrews, consider daily how to build one another up, that you aren't hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, right? So the experience is always do not trust self, do not trust flesh, trust Christ, His means, and His Spirit, and all of that is outside of yourself.

And I'm telling you, for me, that in the last 10, 15 years has been a sweet experience in a horrendous world. The longer I'm alive and the longer I pastor, oh, gentlemen, I'm sure you wake up days going, I can't help these people.

This is too hard. I need help. And then I'm realizing, oh, I don't have to do this. The Spirit will do this, and I will trust His work, and I will trust His means. That would be my first initial response.

No, I'm with you. And I think the difference that that message makes is going to be seen not just in your individual, quote-unquote, Christian walk, but the totality of your Christian life, which means you are being a part of the covenant community.

That's right.

And so, therefore, you have a different expectation from fruitful fellowship. I think part of our growth is vital Christian fellowship.

Yeah.

Hearing God's Word, not just through the ordinary means of preaching and teaching, but through the ordinary connection.

Yeah.

And we're connected one to another with each one supplying strength to the other as each one does its part. And so what God speaks in His Word is confirmed, and it's made more visual sometimes in the context of the body.

So it's a reminder of how sinful we are so we get a true assessment of self.

Because here's the thing.

God is not the only one talking to us and affirming us. So is the flesh. The flesh, the world, and the devil is all speaking to us.

And they speak a different word, man.

They are affirming our corruption. God is affirming our purity in Christ and His love for us. So there is a counter message that's being affirmed with the world, the flesh, and the devil. And by flesh, what we mean is corrupt human nature.

By world, it is corrupt human nature. It's collectivized. And by Satan or the devil, of course, we mean Satan himself. So Satan works through our fallen nature, individualized, and collectivized to tell us that we're okay.

And God speaks to us individually and collectively telling us, you're okay in me. He gives us a different vision of self, and that's why we need that message so we can see the law with all of its grandeur, and even though it's away from us, but here's what we are told.

You're seated with Him. That's where you're seated. So keep thriving, keep walking, because that's where you're seated.

Exactly.

And the promises, I mean, a number of things are just popcorn around in my head right now. But the certainty of our future hope is what enables us to continue on. That's very clear in the writings of, like, I'm in Romans right now, and Romans 5, 1 to 11, there's a ton there, but one of the things that's very plain that just pops off the page is that present justification is the guarantee of final salvation, and that having been united to Christ and justified by faith in Christ apart from works, we can now rejoice in hope of the glory of God that's coming.

And if we've been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, how much more will we be saved by His life, the fact that He ever lives to plead for us and intercede for us and advocate for us, all of those things?

If we've been justified by faith in Christ when we were God's enemies, how much more so will we be saved by Jesus from the wrath of God? I mean, this is what enables us to continue. And even in a Hebrews 12 kind of way, what is it that helps us to bear up under discipline?

Because discipline at the moment is never pleasant. God is working in us to produce holiness, to help us to share in His holiness. It's hard, though, but we bear up under it.

Why?

Because we know that our Father loves us and because we are looking unto Christ. That's in my mind right now. That's important for us, and it kind of undergirds this whole conversation. But then in the church, this understanding of law and gospel and sinner-saint and all this produces a lot of good things in us individually that then is very fruitful collectively.

Because we're humbled. Because we don't misunderstand this. We never could earn anything. And it's not like now, having been justified, the project is to turn myself into the kind of person that God would have been happy to save originally in the first place.

That's not what we do. We realize we're always debtors to mercy. We're always debtors to grace. It's all of Christ.

He's it.

He's our only hope. That's humbling. But then in addition, it produces this kind of understanding. It produces vigilance because we understand, man, I am far more wicked than I ever care to admit. And there are so many things that go on in my mind and heart on a daily basis that I would literally be horrified to think that my brothers and sisters would know what's going on in here.

We know that's true. And so when we can talk like this to one another and acknowledge that this is what we are in terms of the old man, then that helps us be vigilant together, and we can live honestly and openly.

Lastly, it produces compassion because compassion, where you're not looking down on others. You're not thinking, well, man, they just need to get it together. If they were just as disciplined as me, then this church would be just it would be banging in here, man, because we would all be crushing the Christian life if we were all like me.