Cultish: Gwen Shamblin & The Remnant Fellowship, Part 1

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Cultish: Looking Into YWAM (Youth With A Mission) - Part 2

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I praise God that you have either found the website or that you are visiting the worship services looking for the truth.

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What is truth and who has it?

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How do we know that God exists? What is the nature of God?

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How can one reconcile the findings of philosophy and science with religion?

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What is the nature of revelation? How do we know that God reveals

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His will to mankind at all? Which of the thousand religion traditions are true and which commands should be followed?

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What must one actually believe or do to be considered a true adherent of God's true religion?

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I have asked all these questions and wondered if there was a church, a true church, on this earth or not.

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Or was it just going to exist in heaven? I have good news. I have found

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God's church. All right.

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Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cultish, Entering the Kingdom of the Cults. My name is

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Jeremiah Roberts. I am one of the co -hosts here. I am always joined by Andrew, the super sleuth of the show, sleuthing around in Harriman, Utah.

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How are you doing, man? I'm doing well. I'm doing well. And I'm very excited for today.

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We have an amazing guest. Jerry, go ahead and introduce him, bro. Yes, we're going to introduce our guest here in just a moment.

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But man, you talk about just full circle here. It was just not too long ago.

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We were together in Tennessee for the Fight, Laugh, Feast right outside Nashville, Tennessee for the

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Fight, Laugh, Feast conference, and we did a podcast there on the road. And as we were getting ready to head back to our

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Airbnb, which is a whole other fun story in and of itself, which we'll save for another time, someone asked us if we knew about the

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Remnant Fellowship. And so we were just curious. And we went and paid them a visit.

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We drove up there not really knowing anything about it. So we visited the location of this cult that we're going to talk about today.

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And in fact, this group, the Remnant Fellowship, headed up by Gwen Shamblin, this was recently featured on the

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HBO documentary, The Way Down. It's a three -part series. Definitely if you're subscribed to HBO now, it's definitely an excellent series.

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I really enjoyed it. But yeah, so and here we are now with this episode together with our guest today.

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So we are joined by Edward, who spent a good amount of time in the Remnant Fellowship.

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Edward, how are you? Doing fine, thank you. Good, good, man. So just off the get -go, just tell us just real quickly about how long were you in the

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Remnant Fellowship? And then at what age, just from like what ages, just kind of get an idea of how involved you were.

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Well, I probably got involved about the mid -90s, so about like maybe 95,

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I was about 10. Then I got out about 2009, when my wife kind of convinced me to kind of get out of that.

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But along the way, I'd been struggling and trying to get out of that, just come to terms with it. So my mom actually was the one that, it all started with her.

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And she participated in this, issues with weight and everything.

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And, you know, it kind of started off like small, but then it started to get bigger and bigger. And then there was like, there was a lot of things that were going on that really kind of made me question, especially my dad and I, actually made the rest of our family kind of question things too.

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And we saw things that were just like, hmm, and they don't add up right. That's a little odd. Like, for example,

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I mean, I think for any time you get any group saying that they're the only true church on the face of the earth, that typically is a red flag, especially when they're that small of a church, you know, you visit there and there's probably only a couple of hundred people that can fit in that building.

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So yeah, that's definitely the case. So just so people, let's just bring in a people and help them out.

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Some people may have already watched the documentary, The Way Down, and they're finding out about the podcast by way of that.

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But so what's interesting, that clip that we played, you know, she's talking about really a special revelation, you know, really being talking to people, letting people know that they have a unique identity and they've experienced transformation because they're part and part, they're part of God's true church.

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So the book, she had a book that really spread, the way that she came famous is that she had a book on weight loss that was sort of a spiritually centered, sort of Bible centered, at least according to the way that she saw it as a way to lose weight as God would see it.

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What was the name? What was the exact name of the book again? Because I don't want to misphrase it. The Way Down, like The Way Down, like The Way Down Workshop.

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Yeah, and it was that was it spelled The Weight? Because I think there was a play on words of the HBO documentary, if I recall. Yeah, it was like The Way Down, like W -I -G -H -T, but the

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T was in the shape of a cross. And then it was The Way Down Workshop. And then if you look at the documentary, it says

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The Way Down, like W -A -Y Down. Okay, yeah. And so what's fascinating about that is it seems throughout,

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I've kind of grew up in the Christian church and I've kind of seen sort of like the

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Christian industrial complex, you know, when it comes to the music side of things or just the book side of things, you think about there's books that just sold like wildfire and just became a thing or a

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Christian fad, whether it's a book. I don't know if you ever heard the Prayer of Jabez, and it was like merchandise on every single level.

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And even from a diet standpoint, there's always these different products that sort of have the

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Bible involved in some level. There's Ezekiel bread, which if you go to a Sprouts or a Whole Foods, you can get that.

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And it's based off, you know, a certain amount of grains that you have in the specific breads and such. And then, you know, even recently you have the

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Daniel diet, which was a big thing that supposedly this is a diet you can have. That was what Daniel ate instead of eating the rich foods of the king, and that became a big thing.

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So what I just find fascinating, we can kind of delve into is that how did something go from, okay, because these books are a dime a dozen if you go into a

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Christian bookstore about, here's a way, here's a way, some spiritual insight on ways to eat or spiritual strongholds as far as, you know, if you eat these specific foods and they kind of relate that to your health losing weight.

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Those are a dime a dozen. And so I guess I'm curious, like, how does something go from a book about losing weight to all of a sudden becoming this cult that was really part of your life for a significant amount of time?

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Right. Well, what it does is that when it starts off, it's like whenever you become part of it.

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So it's kind of like a workshop and you buy into it and then you bring people in. And it's kind of like,

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I don't want to use this word, but it's only what I can think of. It's kind of like one of those Ponzi schemes where you get one person doing this and that and so on and so forth.

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Like you come under me, blah, blah, blah. Like MLM. Yeah. Yeah. And so then, like, you sell a bill of goods.

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You present it to them. It's like, oh, wow, this is something good. I want to pass this on to other people because of the results that I'm seeing.

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And so the more and more spread out, the more people kept buying it, the more revenue she kept building in from books and so on and so forth, you know, you got to think about this.

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Churches were all over the place, like just eating this up even worldwide. And I mean, she was on Larry King.

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She was on all these other kind of places and just mass marketing this, this weight loss that apparently was working.

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And so what it would do then at some point, there was a kind of a shift near towards about the early 2000s because that's whenever the churches started to pull out because she started changing her ideas on the

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Trinity. Yeah. And so by whenever, whenever she started changing her viewpoints on the Trinity, that's when things started.

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That's whenever the church was like, oh, no. And then that's whenever she decided to build into creating her own church. Yeah, it's definitely very interesting.

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So just so people can understand, maybe we can start at the beginning and maybe get a better understanding of her.

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Because really, if you think about the documentary and just all the conversation that just kind of been surrounding the

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Remnant Fellowship, it's really polarized around her. So it's almost the organization, but really herself being a unique cult of personality.

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And what I find particular is that unique in particular in regards to the, just that area of Tennessee is that it's just a very, it's just a very like patriarchal, usually it's the men leading kind of everything, just in regards to the churches and regards to just the culture at large.

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They're probably the leaders of business and politicians and likewise. And she was someone who was the leader of it all, which was just kind of a very unique thing just given that area of Franklin, Tennessee.

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It's right outside Franklin, Tennessee. We just pulled to the side of the road and it kind of went in there. So just maybe, what do you know about her background and Gwen Shamblin's background and how that all started?

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And I'm just curious to hear about it. So she was a registered dietitian and she also grew up in the

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Church of Christ. And so being the fact that she grew up in that, it kind of had a, like you said, a very patriarchal kind of system to it.

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And so kind of didn't give much of a word in edgewise about that. I mean, that's kind of what you one can assume.

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But when it comes down to it, like her beliefs and stuff, just really kind of she kind of gathered more steam later on as she had kind of struggled with weight in school.

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And then after that, she then went into people kept asking her in one of the videos I found out that she had mentioned that she had been struggling with her weight.

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And people kept asking her, what is she doing differently? And so that kind of like sparked in her, wait a minute, you know, you combine religion and weight loss together, boom, you know, you've got something, you got a new product.

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And so that's kind of what she did was that she applied like basic her degree and stuff and formulated this idea of religion to kind of because she had already started the basis of it within the books.

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And so the books kind of then were like the stepping stones to where she could actually get her to the to the church.

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And it was just many different. It wasn't just weight loss. It was people with alcohol addictions, so and so forth, you know, like sex, so on and so forth.

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Anything that you put an idol wise, that's what she was like really broadcasting.

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If you look at some of the books she taught, she was really emphasizing the Exodus movement. And so, you know, in the mass exodus, the children were

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Moses leading the children of Israel out. She was talking more or less she was talking about how leading them out of bondage as children of Israel were in bondage and exodus.

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So she like Moses led them out. So she was, in essence, from the from you read through it, it looks like she was leading them out to this promised land of weight loss, getting rid of idols in our lives.

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Wow, that's that's incredible. And so I'm just curious about this, too. We talked a little bit on the phone and or whatever.

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And you want to jump in with any questions you have as well, too. I couldn't help but notice when we visited the church, there were some because you mentioned the exodus.

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And I think we talked about this. There were some architecture there. I think one of the things

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I just zoomed on and and capture with my phone and maybe we can put this here on the YouTube later on when we edit this is that there were lions were something that was a big emphasis in regards to the architecture.

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And I think there were just a couple of places, too, where they think they had some Hebrew words written down. And I was just wondering if they're like theologically the way she put this all together in regards to how you eat and how this is supposed to be spiritually healthy for you.

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Was there an aspect where they kind of connected what they believe to, for example, the twelve tribes of Israel or just or how you eat in a particular way?

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Because it's kind of similar in my mind, the a lot of what's going on with the Hebrew roots movement and how that's really taken afoot, where all of a sudden there's a special emphasis in what you do or do not eat and how that's connected to your spiritual well -being.

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Is there an aspect, though, in regard that being part of the last try to how does that work in?

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So it's kind of like line of the tribe of Judah is where it mostly came from.

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And so pushing off of that, that idea, like this called out this remit, this ecclesia, you know, those that are called out, that's where the name is come from in the church.

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And so you have this tribe, this is believers that you were called out and so that's kind of what the emphasis was with lions.

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And, you know, you know, kind of like a like a maybe a warlike mentality, so to speak.

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Yeah. In some regard. Yeah. OK, Andrew, just what are the what questions would you have at this point in time?

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What do you think is to be good questions to ask? You know, I think it would be nice to just paint like a historical timeline with dates in terms of Gwen Shamblin's life just to get that out there for the listener.

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So I have some some facts I can bring up just to tie in with what Edward was talking about.

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Gwen Shamblin to paint the picture of the remnant fellowship or the way she grew up, the climate of Tennessee at the time, like she was born in February 18th, 1955.

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And we're talking about Tennessee, guys. We're talking about like the conservative heartbeat of America, right? The people who grow up in Tennessee, they view the

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Bible differently than people who, let's say, grow up in New York, Chicago, let's say the more liberal liberal places, you know, like San Francisco or Los Angeles.

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Right. And again, like Edward was saying, she grew up in the Church of Christ. So she grew up in a restorationist movement church.

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So a restorationist movement, a lot of those churches, like if you go back and listen to our episodes with Trey Fisher, they believe that there was a there was a falling away of the truth and they were here to restore the truth.

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Right. So hold on to that. And then just to paint to paint a picture really about what's going on.

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In 1973, she graduated from Central High School in Memphis, Tennessee. And after that, like Edward was saying, she was struggling with her weight.

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So then she goes on and she goes to get a dietetics degree from the University of Tennessee.

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Meanwhile, she's still struggling with her weight. She gets married to a man named David Shamblin as her first husband.

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OK, and then she goes on to earn her master's degree in food and nutrition from Memphis, Tennessee.

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Then she began her weight control practice in 1980, and she wanted to counsel on genetics, metabolism and behavior modification.

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That didn't explain why people were thin and others were overweight. And by 1986, while she's working at the university, the

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Weigh Down Workshop was founded. And Edward was saying something. This is what I want to hold on to real quick, because this is really important in terms of a calling that she received from God.

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You got to listen to this. And this is not something that is foreign to restoration type movements like Mormonism.

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Right. So think about this. This is so interesting. So when the Weigh Down Workshop was originally founded, it wasn't founded with a biblical principle behind it.

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Right. But this is this is what former members were saying. They said at the beginning of the weight loss classes in 1986, people would lose their weight, then they would gain it back.

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Gwen Shamblin then states that's when she went to God and prayed. You hear it? And then she heard an audible voice that stated, and I quote, they are not following me and my son.

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They are not being obedient. So it wasn't until 1990 when the Weigh Down Workshop first introduced religion into the setting.

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And that was at Bellevue Baptist Church near Memphis. Tennessee. So I think that's extremely interesting.

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Right. Like nothing was really working with her, with her, her studies, with the way the workshop was going on until she heard that audible voice received that calling.

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Right. And now people start losing weight. Now people start experiencing these things because like Edward said, there was a there was an idolatry problem.

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But really, we know future when we get into this conversation more, she never really had the gospel as the answer.

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But when people start having an experience about something, oh, I'm following the teachings of the

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Weigh Down Workshop and now I'm losing weight. Maybe I can actually stop smoking cigarettes now. You know, all of these things are happening.

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I'm getting healthier. I really must follow her. You know, I have a burning in the bosom. Essentially, she's she holds the truth.

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I could see how she could hold some pedestal above people because this knowledge that she was given from God that people weren't truly obedient until they follow the practices were in play.

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I could see that being a very scary thing. I just wanted to paint a quick little picture just so the people can kind of understand how the

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Remnant Fellowship Church got got formed, because it wasn't even until nine. I believe it was 1999 or wasn't it was in 1999 or let's see here.

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Excuse me. Nineteen. Yeah. Nineteen ninety nine is when the Remnant Fellowship Church was actually instated in Franklin, Tennessee.

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So we can go we can fill in gaps between there. But I find that to be extremely important. Right. And yeah, it is because you've got this time that's just amassed all of this, all this information, all these things that have happened up until this point.

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I mean, there come and then there's that that break off where there was the denial of the Trinity. So kind of where she like, you know, broke off and started to form her own in essence, belief system.

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And so but. Well, that was well, that was one part of the documentary that they did talk about how they a lot of people who are into the workshop and had really invested her and given her a high name, really praised her and kind of given her this all these accolades that when she made this change, there was a lot of backlash for it.

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And they were upset because it sort of made them look bad. Like we don't we didn't have the discernment to see that, you know, you're now starting this group that's that's the nine core

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Christian doctrines, which is one of those things that never always doesn't surprise me whenever you're looking at a non -Christian cult or one that's counterfeiting biblical

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Christianity. They'll always sort of pay accolades to Jesus Christ, God, the gospel.

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But they'll always go and fundamentally change the terminology and change the language, fundamentally the essentials that Jesus Christ is

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God come in the flesh. That's always what they go for. And of course, if you go out for the Trinity, fundamentally, the deity of Jesus Christ will fall apart by like a house of cards if you do end up denying the

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Trinity. Picture this to you guys real quick, like by 1998,

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Weigh Down Workshop posted more than 21 ,000 classes with more than 250 ,000 participants worldwide and more than 14 ,000 churches in 70 different countries.

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And then two years later, like Edward was talking about in the year 2000, she gave this mass following. That's when then she sends an email out to her followers denying the

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Trinity. And I have some quotes from that email. She says, as a ministry, we believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. However, the

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Bible does not use the word Trinity. And our feeling is that the word Trinity implies equality and leadership or shared lordship.

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It is clear that the scriptures teach that Jesus is the son of God and that God sends the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not send

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God anywhere. God is clearly the head. And then she says, and I quote, if God wanted us to refer to himself,

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Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as the Trinity, he would have not left this word completely out of the

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Bible. So imagine having that many followers, 14 ,000 churches backing you using your workshops and all of a sudden to those 14 ,000 churches just saying, oh, we deny the

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Trinity. Right. That's that's wild, guys. That's wild. Yeah. What are some of your thoughts?

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Just I mean, that's this is, of course, why we call Andrew the super sleuth, because he does really got it kind of gets into the facts and we're just kind of giving people some ideas of how this started.

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Anything that Andrew mentions or anything you could fill in the blanks on? As far as, you know, the things that he mentioned.

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I mean, everything is pretty everything is on point. I mean. With with everything that she was everything that she was brought up in,

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I mean, it's just very startling whenever you deny the Trinity in this and also the fact that whenever but it's also like because whenever she said that she heard from the voice of God, that's one of the scariest things you could ever imagine is somebody saying,

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I heard from the voice of God and that's going back to Jim Jones in Jonestown. I mean, it's a scary situation whenever somebody says,

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I've said, you know, and often I've told this to several people when somebody tells you from they hear from the voice of God run. I mean, it gets to that.

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That's that's how that's as a scary thing to hear, because then it just superimposes that their ideology supersedes any belief that you might have yourself.

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And so it just kind of puts them in a difficult position. And so you got to think about it from this perspective.

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These are people that are absolutely vulnerable. They are professing, yes, I have this situation. I have this issue with weight loss or I have a marriage problem or whatever else

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I may have. And I'm going to this person who's claiming to be here from God.

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I go to this person, I expose myself to them. But if there's a hiccup along the line, I have to keep going back to that person.

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Right. I mean, I think it's kind of I think it's it's I think it was like Walter Martin said something about you're made dependent in any like you're indoctrinated and you're made dependent on anyone.

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Yeah. You become indoctrinated with this because you have this problem. And then she kept saying, well, no, if you you gain weight, because if you know anything about weight loss and weight gain, you're going to plateau at some point.

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Yeah. The human body just plateaus at a point and you're going to have to eat more. You're going to have to do this.

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You have to do it to maintain weight loss. And there was just no basic science behind it.

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And any time that you could present the science with it or anything that backed it up, it was all thrown on a thrown and thrown out.

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So you couldn't rationalize it. You can't go against and say, you know, this is, you know, you know,

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I understand faith. I get that. But at the same time, science backs up the

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Bible. Science can do that. And what would be I mean, go ahead.

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What was the last thing you said? No, go ahead. Yeah. What would be an example of when you when

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I remember in the in the documentary and just kind of skimming over some of her teachings is that you could.

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The emphasis is that there weren't like really foods that were off limits, but there were just portions that you could take. But there are times essentially when you were just hungry, that instead of going to the refrigerator, you would go and and pray and depend on God versus the food without that.

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And I mean, that's a very uber cliff notes version. Then like just maybe unpack from your perspective as someone who grew up in the movement, like how how would people apply that given her teachings?

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So whenever you talk, you know, eat when you're hungry, stop when you're full. OK, I mean, it's just a basic principle.

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And I get that. But it's almost like you would like deny yourself if you're starving.

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You know, like like in one video, I think it was the one that she did with Tyra Banks. If you watch that video, she talks like how she would eat like just one ketchup and fry with ketchup on it and put a little bit of salt on it.

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And that that was it. And she would eat that or she would like like just strategically cut up a burger into like a small size.

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I get portion size. I get it. It's portion control. But in that movement, it was almost like, you know, if you overeat or you feel full, oh, gosh, you've already sinned.

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You know, you're a sinner. You have you have already, you know, God is mad at you because you overate.

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You maybe had a piece, you know, well, if I get up at one o 'clock in the morning and man,

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I just really want to go get something. She would just completely talk about how the fridge is like your enemy and our alcohol is your enemy and completely avoiding the reason for why are you overeating?

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Why is this? And just kind of superimpose her own ideology on that, meaning that her viewpoint on this, instead of focusing on the sin that was in the person's life, the struggle that they had, putting a biblical perspective on it instead of putting her take on it.

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That way, then the people kept coming back to it. Yeah. So in other words, it was like people kind of go and their weight would fluctuate.

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There's people who gain the weight back. But if you gain the weight back, it was never the methodology is always your fault.

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It's exactly. Yeah. So it would almost be then sort of like a word of faith thing. Well, God's going to heal you. But if not, there's something wrong with you.

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You don't have enough faith. That's in some sense, almost creating sort of this very interesting spiritual codependency on her.

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Well, you need to go to another workshop because, you know, ultimately you weren't sincere enough. You didn't pray away the hunger enough.

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Right. And you actually mentioned something. Very good. Sorry. We're going to say something, Andrew. Oh, no, you're good.

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I'll ask after. OK, so you mentioned something about healing and that's also played part into this.

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So they also were very much against medicine and against heat, against like if you took anything like antidepressants or, you know, heaven forbid you got sick.

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If you got sick or whatever, that was just an example of God's punishment upon you for getting sick. So like if you were like, you know,

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I take for myself, for example, I was so sick, you know, one time I was I would not stop heaving. And it was because I was sending my life,

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I was sending that I got sick and because my lack of faith in God, I would not be made well.

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And I just had to keep praying and going to God, you know, even though I would be throwing my toenails up, I would still just keep going and still praying, you know,

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God, please help me, please, you know, remove this from me as if it was my fault. What did I do? So I had to self -examine myself, pretty much beat myself up for something that happened to me that like I just got sick.

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It made absolutely zero sense because I fell out of faith in listening to her teachings.

27:06

Wow. Like that, that leads me to this question, too, man. So kind of through Gwen Shamblin, this revelation that she gets from God that people have to you're not becoming successful in your life.

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You're not healthy. You're not the right weight if you're not in obedience to God. Right. And through her revelation, you can actually be obedient to God.

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How in the Remnant Fellowship is one obedient to God? Right. I don't listen to Gwen, I mean, because you got to think about it.

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She she's kind of set herself up to where she's like the center focal point, the mouthpiece of God, and she's got all those around her that kind of go out and do her bidding.

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You know, she's got her inner circle and everything. And so if you were disobedient, you know, you were just seen as sinful and you had to repent.

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And sometimes you had to go back and you had to think, well, what did I do, you know, to to do so? Well, maybe I shouldn't have eaten that chocolate cake or, you know, maybe

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I shouldn't have done this or or whatever. Or if you went and you exercise, you know, heaven forbid you exercise and, you know, do the you know, do the thing.

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I mean, Paul even told Timothy that, you know, bodily exercise profit is little compared to spiritual, you know, compared to spiritual gaining.

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But the but the point is the reason why I made it is so that way you have to train your bodies, but it's not as important as spiritually training your bodies, because that's that obviously supersedes any type of physical training we could do anyway.

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So we did so something in that you would have to examine yourself to say, well, maybe

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I did screw up doing this. You know, I'm going to go repent or maybe I again, I shouldn't have eaten that.

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So it's just like beating yourself up. So there's a direct correlation then to your spirituality versus the diet and what you eat.

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And and again, this is not the only cult as well that deals with whether or not you can't have medication.

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I mean, we kind of dealt that with the Church of Wells. We've kind of dealt that even with like Christians when we talk about Christian science.

29:05

I mean, there's a lot of times there's emphasis on everything. You heal all the spiritual through the physical.

29:10

It's almost there's a misbalance between the physical and the spiritual. So it almost in a weird way sort of becomes pseudonostic, if that makes sense.

29:19

So there's that variable in play. But maybe just to get people to help people understand, because we're reviewing this through the lens.

29:25

And if you get if you watch the documentary the way down, it kind of goes, you know, it's done dramatically because it's a documentary.

29:32

They want people. They want viewership and all that. But at the end of the day, you know, this was something that was a workshop that had this emphasis.

29:40

And there's and again, there's been these different products that have been a dime a dozen. But eventually this became a church.

29:46

That's the only true church on the face of the earth. So how would right now, like the remnant,

29:52

I mean, Gwen, for those of you don't know, Gwen passed away this year because she was in a plane accident along with a lot of the key leaders of the church.

30:03

But how would she view really now salvation? Is it being part of the remnant fellowship only or is that contingent than a bond and what your diet is once you join the church?

30:15

I mean, what would the gospel if you're to describe like what the gospel is from the perspective of the remnant fellowship is,

30:23

I mean, why did Jesus Christ come and die on a cross, according to Gwen Shamblin? Basically died on a cross so you could be healthier is basically what you were focusing on in this world is what salvation would be is whenever you get to that weight lost goal, which you had that would whenever you would receive true salvation.

30:48

And she would just she would just use these like random just, you know, just random teachings about how her how the gospel would play out in this movement, in this movement.

31:02

And so you would have things like you, you would be saved whenever you would lose enough weight or if you did enough stuff.

31:11

It basically works based salvation. And it was that's pretty much what

31:17

I mean, does that kind of answer your question? Yeah, I mean, on some level, I mean, that it's similar to,

31:24

I mean, a lot of other groups that have their even though it may be one not be the full, complete part, but it might be part and parcel where, you know, you need to obtaining abstaining from certain foods or consuming other foods or just doing the particular rituals.

31:39

It's either it's it's it's a catalyst towards, you know, workspace righteousness. But I mean, the fact that it's to be utterly to be in a position where you're utterly dependent upon her and the entirety of of this group claiming to be the only true church and she's paying homage to Christ.

31:59

But your salvation is looking to yourself and the weight in the mirror, which is in your way, it's always there's so many variables in play.

32:07

I mean, each of us have, you know, a unique set of we have a unique set of genetics and how God made us.

32:13

And, you know, people react to foods differently. I mean, some people are allergic to one thing, like I'm allergic to peanut butter.

32:20

You know, there's other there's other foods I can't have. Some people can't have dairy. Some people were dairy is fine. It helps them get all get all jacked and get a bunch of gains.

32:28

So everyone's different. I can't imagine what that must be like for someone in the remnant fellowship to say, well, you know, salvation is contingent.

32:38

It's not salvation by grace through faith alone, but this is salvation by one 70 and 10 percent body fat.

32:47

I mean, like that, I can imagine that sort of pressure. It sounds like it's a salvation by obedience, right?

32:54

Like Edward was saying, like it is literally a works thing. I would assume you can correct me if I'm wrong, Edward, but I would assume that if someone was listening to Gwen's teachings and they were going to a different church in order to be saved,

33:06

I would I would assume that they would have to leave their counterfeit church and they'd need to go under the God given authority of the leaders of the remnant fellowship to be part of their church under their authority.

33:17

So you can be obedient according to their standards in order in order to be saved and be part of the remnant church.

33:23

Is that is that kind of how they do things? Oh, absolutely. That's exactly how they do it, because they would talk about how the other churches where we're wrong and only this church who is part of the remnant.

33:34

This was the you know, she talks about the true church, this true ecclesia of the called out.

33:41

And so she would then at these other churches, like you mentioned, people going to other churches were like, wait a minute, I need to go to this church because this is where true salvation is at.

33:52

It's had nothing to do with the gospel, nothing to do with Christ and salvation, repentance of sin, and everything to do with I need to get here because I feel this way and this woman is making me feel this specific way.

34:07

And so you'd have people coming from all over the people uprooting their families and moving out here just to be a part of this.

34:15

And that's why the church has amassed many, many followers. It's all because that the term usage of remnant ecclesia called out.

34:25

I mean, this is the she wouldn't even say it. God's true church. Those are words that to somebody who doesn't know their

34:32

Bible, doesn't understand it well enough, they'll fall prey to that very easily, especially somebody who's got an eating issue or any type of disorder like that.

34:42

You tell somebody that, you know, you don't need to take medicine. You need to take this anymore. You can be free from all medication. Well, I've got a family.

34:49

My stepdaughter, my wife are both chronically ill. If you take away their medicine from them, they're not my daughter will be here much longer.

34:55

I can promise you that you take that from them. They're dead. And that's that's what they're doing. But anybody in that situation where they're taking you take something from that and say, it's your faith that will make you well, you completely misquoting what

35:08

Christ said. No, no. But people are going to go and flock to that church. They'll make they'll move heaven and earth to get to wherever they need that, wherever they need that, have that need filled.

35:18

Yeah, definitely. And so maybe we I want maybe we can emphasize this is that, you know, when we had post, we made the we just posted something yesterday on our social media and we kind of announced we're going to be doing the podcast.

35:29

And we get this a lot when people are making some jokes about Gwen Chamlin's hair. And, you know, as she got older, it got a little crazier.

35:35

And who knows, you know, whatever. And, you know, a lot of people were asking the question, well, how how on earth could someone get caught caught up in this?

35:46

Almost in a sense, like, well, if you get caught up in this, you're less of a person. And I think this is just something a lot of people misunderstand when it comes to the cults, is that there's an aspect of the sociological conditioning of how someone is they're conditioned to to become dependent on this leader.

36:03

And even really from a biblical point of view, which is really the only way to understand consistently and holistically the world of the kingdom of the cults, is that you understand like we're made in the image bearer of God.

36:17

In fact, in Ecclesiastes 311, you know, it says God has made everything perfect and beautiful and it's in its time and he has put eternity into man's heart so that he cannot find out what

36:29

God has done from beginning to the end. And so I think as image bearers of God and people wanting to have that longing that people intrinsically, they want to be part of something bigger than themselves.

36:42

I can't remember who said it, but no one goes to the Grand Canyon to increase their self -esteem.

36:48

They want to they they want to seek out into the transcendent unknown or just be part of something bigger than themselves.

36:55

And so I can see the allure of someone who is charismatic and maybe they're taking they're they're following some of their people who did get tangible results for her weight loss program.

37:07

And it's connected to God from from Gwen's point of view. But now you're saying, well, this is actually revelatory because now we're part of God's true church.

37:18

Come and join us like I can see how someone could get caught up in the moment because when you're caught up in the emotion of something, when you're feeling something, when you're seeing something, when you're in an emotional experience, the undue influence,

37:31

I mean, that can that can really change someone. And that's, I think, something people need to really people need to really understand, especially, you know, from anyone who's on the outside looking in.

37:44

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's again, you're indoctrinated and you're made to depend on that person for that source of information.

37:54

I mean, anybody who's going to contradict that, I mean, again, I want to quote Walter Martin, anybody who's going to contradict that is your enemy kind of creates a religious paranoia within them because then you have this kind of an issue like a fight within yourself because you got on one hand, like you mentioned, you got the weight loss.

38:10

And on the other hand, you've got the fact that, oh, this is the true church. Why would I ever leave it? Because everything

38:16

I ever want is right here. You know, you've got communion, you've got community, you've got everything you could ever want.

38:23

Why would you want to look outside of anybody you see that's outside of it? They're now started going to another church and you need to go and recruit them into the church if you care enough about them.

38:33

No, that's really good. And so maybe what we can do is we kind of I think it's a pretty good overview, just kind of giving you an idea.

38:40

But as far as we have the idea of who guys they denied their trinity, which is not which is obvious. And then she was getting a lot of what she was talking about was was revelatory.

38:52

And then salvation was contingent upon your particular weight loss. What would be what would be proof text that she would probably go to what she preached in the

39:02

Bible, which you kind of when she go up and on every single Sunday. I mean, I'm looking here in the related sermons and there's a couple of related you know, they have sermons on their website.

39:11

Like what what what was a what is what's a service in the Remnant Fellowship typically like? Well. Well, services were kind of very different, like her her son,

39:23

Michael, be the one that would open up, always be here, well, he would kind of come on and off every now and then. But everybody would be dressed in like these gowns like that.

39:32

I mean, people were very dressed very well to the nines. And but most of her services like were very much kind of like a word salad kind of a thing.

39:44

I like to say I kind of a jumbled up mess of things like I really couldn't really follow it.

39:51

And then you don't really want to question it either, because, you know, she kind of commanded the attention whenever you're like listening to her.

39:58

And so whenever you like whenever I went whenever I was there, I can remember one time whenever she was walking, whenever she was on stage, she was like elaborate gown, like very showy.

40:09

And I can remember what the service was about because I was so distracted by what she was wearing, her appearance that I couldn't focus on it.

40:19

And I'll never forget whenever she was preaching. Anyway, she motioned for a stagehand to come across.

40:27

And as soon as the stagehand came across the hair of hers came over and they moved it out of her face for so she could keep preaching.

40:36

And and that was whenever my dad looked over at me, he said, oh, we're in a cult, son. And it freaked me out when

40:44

I heard my dad utter those words. And how long how long was that from the time that you were when your dad said that?

40:52

That was about that was when the church was built in the early 2000s. And so we had gone just so that way my mom could get an idea to have her own church and follow in Gwen's footsteps.

41:06

And so mom went to kind of get the blueprint, got to get some information and everything from it to where she would actually have her own church.

41:15

I was almost identical to it as best she could have it and from everything from practicing the teachings to everything else.

41:22

That's what she what she was involved with. Hmm. OK, so, yeah, and so you and so maybe you talk about the point where your dad said you came to this realization.

41:33

But and so we gave people kind of an overview. So give us some observation to kind of take back from, like, how old were you when you first were in the

41:42

Remnant Fellowship? Well, like whenever like so when

41:48

I started out the workshop, I was about 10 years old, you know, kind of didn't have much to do with it. I just remember mom going and, you know,

41:54

I'd help her with the things. I'd sit there, you know, she'd play the VHS tape. She'd have the whole kit and she'd have maybe about like five, six at most people show up.

42:04

And, you know, she would be going to churches and stuff and everything until after the whole Trinity fiasco.

42:10

Then she would move over to the store that my parents owned. And she she would then go to then that's whenever she would then she would try to open up her own church.

42:22

And I was probably about in high school, almost about to graduate. And whenever we went up there and then from that point on,

42:30

I kind of, you know, I was, you know, if you go to any other church, you know, you're not you know, all those other churches are falling by the wayside.

42:37

I wish she was teaching. And so it kind of put me in a situation where I felt like if I didn't go to the church and I was going to hell and then at one point

42:45

I just really didn't care if I was going to hell. So that's kind of what that was kind of like my take on it.

42:51

Wow. So how did when when you were young and then the Remnant Fellowship and the Weigh Down Workshop and this all starts getting introduced into your life, how how exactly did did your life change from those moments, like with with friendships that you had with relationships at school?

43:07

How bring us through that? So whenever I first came in, like we didn't think much of it, but then

43:15

I noticed how mom would like. Most of my friends wouldn't want to come and hang out with me because of mom, because she would like be like this super uber religious guy,

43:25

I understand, you know, faith and all that, I really understand there's a healthy line, but it was almost to the point where I was like ad nausea with this, the whole not eating the whole everything else with it.

43:36

And so then I would get made fun of in school for, you know, people not want to hang out with me.

43:44

And so. But then going on as I got older and all,

43:49

I mean, my my even my my granddad, my grandmother both were like, you know, this is a cult.

43:55

And my granddad was one of the people who didn't really go to church that much. But he was the one that did say, you know, you know, son, this is this cult.

44:02

And my grandmother did, too. And they were both just telling me that this this is what it is. And because it's just completely changed everything.

44:09

And then just growing up, it was it was very strict as far as like, you know, what

44:15

I could do, what I couldn't do, I could do. And I, you know,

44:21

I had to I had to really, you know, I just really kind of put up a thick skin to it.

44:26

And I had to, you know, just accept a lot of things I had to go through. And I saw it as, you know, me just being sinful.

44:36

So, yeah. And so maybe I was curious, too. So when we visited the remnant property and we were and Andrew and I were just curious and exploring around and we got in a conversation with with the two gentlemen.

44:47

And it was a day, I think it was a volunteer day. So if any of you've seen the documentary, there's the front of the church.

44:54

And then I believe it's to the left of the church. There is kind of like this playground there and there's a giant field.

45:00

It's a pretty large property as well, too. So for anyone who's involved, and this is typically the case with a lot of different groups, is there just a lot of sort of voluntary service or servitude where you dedicate a certain amount of time, not only doing the workshop and maybe helping doing improvement or something like that?

45:19

So like how much time would someone typically give just to the church involvement or activity per week?

45:27

I mean, not too familiar with it, I'll be quite honest with you, because, you know, we had our had our own thing, but at the same time,

45:35

I mean, probably more so than usual, because these people were made to seem like it was their whole entire world.

45:40

They devoted 100 percent into this teaching. You know, they bought into it hook, line and sinker.

45:46

So there is no telling how many hours they would spend a week on manpower, you know, helping around the grounds and just everything general upkeep, too.

45:58

No, that's really good. Did you have a what observations do you have given where we're at right now?

46:05

Yeah, I was just you had me reminiscing on that time when we went over there and we're we're yeah, we're talking with people.

46:11

I remember when we first talked with a groundsworker maintenance guy. He said, what was he telling us? He was giving us pretty much his testimony about he was like, yeah, once I came here and I was obedient, things have been great.

46:22

And then we walk over and we see a bunch of people working on things, even children like they're building their their new park and stuff like that.

46:28

And we talked to two young adults and what really struck out to me, which you would probably resonate with this,

46:35

Edward, is how he talked about initially the first thing he started talking about was his testimony and how he moved here and how his buddy right next to him that was with us also moved here from another part of the country just to be at Remnant Fellowship, which means that there's something important about actually physically being there at that location, which was very, very eerie in itself.

47:00

But at the same time, volunteering and helping is always a good thing to do.

47:05

But in this situation, when we went there, it was very, very eerie, very eerie. It kind of is, isn't it, like whenever you're in one of those situations where somebody like it's almost it's almost like they're it's almost like a kind of a

47:21

I'm happily doing this because of what you've done for me, like kind of like a not the fruit of the spirit, you know, like the indwelling of the spirit, you know, because it's manifest of ourselves.

47:33

It comes out of us. And so that's why it's I'll take my internet is

47:38

OK, sorry, but kind of because now I received

47:43

I've received salvation through this. I need to be where I have gotten my salvation from and I need to work to prove myself that I'm worthy of this.

47:53

Again, going back to that works based salvation, but kind of in a different regard. Yeah, what would be

48:01

I just curious, too, because I think one of the reasons why we wanted to have you on because the buzz was really surrounding the documentary

48:09

The Way Down, which consists of three episodes, it's available on HBO. And it's one of those things when you look at how they usually will depict, you know, a cult leader or people who are a byproduct of it.

48:23

You talk about the parents who had their daughter Mary into the remnants and they she's sort of pretty much separated from them.

48:30

And they're kind of dealing with it with the trauma of the severance and and all that and just kind of just dealing with all the different circumstances of people who grew up and came out.

48:39

It's usually they just talk about the sociological abuse and manipulation and those some of those variables in play.

48:46

But they don't really give any real reason. Almost like three. Why? Well, why is that wrong?

48:52

Or like, what's the real hope now that you've left? Well, I was part of this. Now I'm not here. And people generally have a fascination with cults, but usually that secular approach, whether it's

49:01

Leah Remney and Leah Remney and Scientology of the Aftermath or or any of those other series like Going Clear Scientology and the

49:09

Prison of Unbelief, they don't always I feel like they only really deal with surface level of the real issues at hand.

49:16

What was your perspective of that documentary just from when for you watching it?

49:24

I mean, a lot of it was just things that I kind of confirmed looking at it from a theological perspective.

49:31

It's just it's painful to look to see people in that that believe that they're they have they have to be in this.

49:39

They can't listen to anybody who's outside. They can't listen to somebody else's take on it or even question it because you can't question anything that going as you can't question anything that the church does, because if you are, then you're seen as like an unbeliever.

49:56

And I guess that's why it's like one verse that they they actually use, which I thought was actually very interesting, came from Psalm 39, verse one through two said,

50:06

I said, I will guard my ways that I may not sin with my tongue. I will guard my mouth with a muzzle so long as the wicked are in my presence.

50:14

I was mute and silent. I held my peace to no avail and distress grew worse.

50:21

Basically, like they would be quiet among people that would try to convey them else wise, hey, look, why do you believe this?

50:30

Are they any time that you would try to go against what they're what they believe? They were just kind of like shut down because they couldn't they mean they could back it up, but it wasn't there was no like scripture applied to it or even if it was, it was completely misquoted, taken out of context.

50:47

Yeah, yeah, because I remember you had the and I was curious about this, too, because in it, they in there, there's a big emphasis on the on the weddings and family and family and all that was there was there an emphasis on weddings or in the sense that sometimes they'll have the men will go out and try and pursue other women outside of the group almost as a chance as a way to recruit.

51:09

That seemed to be what it be indicated. I think they really talked about in the first episode. I mean, that again,

51:16

I wasn't I wasn't too familiar with that, but I mean, they would do that. I mean, I've I heard and I see

51:21

I heard a bunch of stories about how some of them would actually go out and do this and just kind of recruiting.

51:27

But it's kind of like through the workshops, you would recruit that way through the workshops. And then from there, you would go into the church.

51:35

It's kind of like being like one of many ways to get to one of many paths to take to the church. Hmm. It's almost like a membership class, right?

51:42

Like you're going through this Weigh Down workshop, which is a 12 week class,

51:47

I believe it is. So by the time you're through this 12 week class, you're fully devoted now to the ideas that are being expounded upon.

51:56

You've seen physical results from Portia control, but then you attribute that to your spiritual health and spiritual walk with God, which you assume is getting better because of the physical manifestations from Gwen Shamlin and her revelation.

52:09

So now you devote yourself to the Remnant Fellowship. So now you move yourself out there. Now you are underneath their their control in a sense, like you you give up part of yourself to level with Gwen Shamlin's experience.

52:23

Could you could you talk real briefly about what's the difference about salvation in biblical

52:28

Christianity and like the one experience that matters, which is like the incarnation of Jesus Christ is death, burial and resurrection and compare that to the revelation of Gwen Shamlin.

52:39

Can you could you do that? So. Basically, it's not if you go back to the whole

52:46

Trinity aspect of it, she just sees it's basically where God is for us is all you know,

52:52

God is God has been in the Christian sense, and we all know this, but God is God. But whenever it comes down to the

52:57

Gwen was the only part of where salvation came through her for the divine revelation. She has said she was a if you look and watch the documentary question, one of the first questions they ask is, do you see yourself as a prophet?

53:10

And other people have said that she is a prophet. So they'll listen to her. And so because of that, that's whenever they say, well, my salvation came through her teachings, but she won't ever she won't ever admit to that.

53:23

That's not like she won't admit, but then she won't deny it. That makes some sense. Well, that seemed to be the case from the very beginning when they're in the interrogation videos.

53:31

I mean, it was night and day between her body language of when she was being interrogated or she just had the the the hearing when she was on camera and, you know, they're asking her specific questions.

53:45

And she was like, no. Versus when you see her up on stage, I mean, it was just night, definitely night and day for sure.

53:54

So, yeah, why don't we do this? So I think we have somewhat of a general overview.

54:00

Maybe the next episode, what we can do just for the sake of time is that we can kind of maybe go in more depth to just examples of how of what people actually went through.

54:11

Some of the experience you saw of people are going going through this from the inside out for just just from you.

54:17

Yeah. For people on the outside looking in, I think you just have a unique insider's perspective. So I think maybe in the next episode we can do is we can kind of just maybe take a look at the perspective of other people like and what what was it like for them on the inside and maybe even some of the challenges, you know,

54:32

I think one of the things, too, when you're in a group like this is that if you watch the video, what's and Andrew, I feel like we've seen this a dime a dozen is that.

54:44

You know, it's almost there, like the video that we play at the very beginning of the show, this is their editing and it's it's cultish.

54:53

With the music and everyone just being super happy and clapping at everything in a very adherent way, it's not that's not normal.

55:03

That's not normal life to always have a happy face all the time. But behind that, you know, you probably as a whole and I see you smiling here, man, is that behind like the facade, you have a bunch of people who deep down inside, they know that they are falling short.

55:24

They know that they've become a lot into themselves and their weight is fluctuating back and forth.

55:31

Maybe they're at their ideal weight. But what do I need to do to obtain to stay at this weight?

55:36

You know, maybe I'm getting older. My metabolism is changing or for someone who gets pregnant.

55:42

Like, how does that work? You know, so you have all these different variables in play. And I think this is just something that's important to see, because ultimately you'll see and this is just the sociological aspect of the cults, is that there's always this pressure to put on a perfect face.

55:58

But then eventually that just festers up inside that you don't have it together. And then as soon as you mess up, it's your fault.

56:05

And then you get ostracized and you get shunned and all that. So maybe that's something we can emphasize in part two when we kind of jump into that.

56:13

So, so why don't we do this? Let's go ahead and transition. So I appreciate you guys listening to the first part of this series, talking about Gwen Shamblin and the

56:23

Remnant Fellowship. Definitely a really fascinating documentary series. Definitely just a whole fascinating, just fascinating in general, this whole story of how this was something went from being weight loss to becoming a definitive cult.

56:36

So we can definitely talk about that in part two. So if you guys enjoyed the first part of this episode, go ahead and let us know what you thought.

56:44

You can go to thecultistshow .com and also if a ministry like this has been a blessing to you this past year, you can go to thecultistshow .com.

56:52

There's a donate tab. You can donate one time or monthly, help support this ministry. All right.

56:58

So all that being said, I appreciate you coming on here and we'll talk to you guys here in part two of Cultish where we enter into the kingdom of the cults.