9/17/2013 Today on a Jumbo Edition of the Dividing Line

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10/4/2013 The Trinity & Tawid Debate - White vs Bux

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Webcasting live on YouTube around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us

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Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White you could call but today We know that he is going to be covering a lot of ground

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So we're not gonna open up the phone lines today. So here he is with today's topic. Dr. James White Is he sound help of the microphone on?

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Yeah, all I can say is he sounded younger before Yeah, yeah, that's that's how it works

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I welcome folks we Evidently have all sorts of stuff to be doing because of the

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YouTube stuff about music and things like that Which eventually down the road it is a good idea.

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Everyone's while to change things up and when you think about You know Colin Smith.

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He he writes in every once in a while just to go. Excuse me, but You don't offer tapes and tracks anymore.

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So why do you still have that the end of every dividing line? you you got but we

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I listened to The most recent unbelievable radio broadcast and First I Want to explain something people go you just always pick on William Lane Craig, you're just jealous the reality is

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William Lane Craig has the loudest voice in the non -reformed apologetics arena and the pride in an apologetics and Toto and As a result

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I get to hear him speaking more often if I heard other people speaking more often than I'd probably be talking about them, too

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But Bill Craig was just down in Australia Brisbane Sydney and Starts to them the other one anyways and He had a series of encounters with a fellow that I was a little bit surprised to discover actually lives right here in my area he is a professor at Arizona State University and Lawrence Krauss his name and is he's be starting to come a little more

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Commonly known anyways and Melbourne by the way is the other place and I Was taken aback when

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I first started it well someone sent me a link to some of William Lane Craig's written comments and And I was

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I Was blown away by the fact that this guy Krauss showed up at a debate with a buzzer a buzzer and when

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William Lane Craig would say something they disagreed with during his

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Opening presentation he would press the button on the buzzer I'm like come on.

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You've got to be kidding me. I have encountered some really childish people in nearly 130 debates since 1990

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I've never encountered anything like that. I've had some people made some noises, and and I've been fairly consistent at this point

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I was really offended when Robert Mori made noises and Distracted distracting things in his debate with Shabir Ali.

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I just thought that was you've got to be kidding me is that not the greatest evidence of Your inability to act like an adult

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When you when you do that kind of stuff. I mean seriously, so I was I was blown away by that and Then I caught the unbelievable broadcast and what

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Justin Briarley did Was he interviewed both Krauss? and Lane Separately William Lane Craig, that's

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I'd go with his middle name Lane. We really know each other well Anyway, he he didn't have them on at the same time.

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He interviewed them separately from one another about their encounters, and then he played some segments and As soon as I heard the primary interaction on the issue of the destruction of the

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Canaanites I went Another Incredible illustration of Theology matters another incredible illustration of why there is such a chasm between reformed apologetics and non -reformed apologetics it just Had it had to do it, so I'm not just picking on William Lane Craig I'm doing this because it illustrates a fundamental issue in apologetics, and it's really really important, but let's start off I Have to admit we change everything around since since last time and now the channel is over here

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So I can sort of makes me look like I'm actually looking at yeah I'm not actually looking at the camera, but the channels over here

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Well, we can actually see you instead of looking over here right right, but the video cameras are over here

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So I've got to look over there once while my Bible's over here, so when I'm doing exegesis and stuff

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I'm gonna be looking over here. Well. That's okay. We can still see you well I'm just saying we found over here right here's here's

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Oh, and there's my my Ukrainian my my three Ukrainian fans

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Nice to see you live dr. White praying for trip South Africa what happened to Radio Free Geneva well, we're working on that well

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We've still got to get back to the rest of Jerry Walls, and maybe we'll do out on Thursday.

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How's that sound well? We'll try to do a Radio Free Geneva on Thursday I'm not sure if we can do a Radio Free Geneva without the

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Radio Free Geneva theme That could be difficult Maybe I'll have to sing the

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Steve Green part. What do you think? No, we're working on it. We're working on. I know we're working on it.

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I'm just saying I think a lot of people would would sort of sit there like You're doing

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Radio Free Geneva without the Radio Free Geneva theme Maybe we could just cut out the

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Steve Green part and just play play all the Play all the other stuff We'll at least play

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Ergen Kanner screaming about staying on his hands. That's that's good enough for anybody I think that's that's always the best one anyway

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Hi brothers in Kiev You know you guys in Kiev need to send me a note about what kind of coat to buy for February in Kiev that's fine, so I can put on my on my

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Amazon wish list my personal one not the not the ministry shortlist We'll put on the personal one because I need to know

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Because remember I live in a place where right now the low temperature is 79 degrees Fahrenheit, so My blood is very thin and things like that anyways, and then so I look over here and Somebody is saying that In the chat channel that my head looks squished that's very distracting.

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I'm sorry. It's very distracting to me to To have someone saying my head looks squished

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I'm not sure what that means and it makes me very self -conscious anyhow. I'm going to try to ignore that but like yeah like I said

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Fred Butler is distracting me now, too Hey, where is this month's

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Alexandrian cult meeting taking place? I haven't received my notice yet I am the I am the high priest of the

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Alexandrian cult according to some people so And then we've got people like that Dude that got banned from the

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Baptist board who are just completely insane Definitely my my vote for the internet troll of the year

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Maybe that maybe the decade in fact maybe the century. I mean we're not very far into the century So that's really saying a lot there

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We will go for that anyways Yeah, see the folks in Ukraine say no theme ain't watch it

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Gotta have the theme so we got a got to work on that anyhow Let's get back to Lawrence Krauss because we have a lot to cover.

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I want to I Want to get to Brashear Varnia on The doctrine of salvation yet.

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We just haven't had a lot of discussion about Islam and salvation And a lot of people have real interest in that it's obviously it's a big part of their lives

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It's something we need to be looking at and so I Relistened to a debate that Bashir did on salvation his opening statements are fairly short in fact you cut out the introductory part

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And it's only about 18 minutes, so we could probably get through a lot of that before we get back to Yusuf Ismail by the way,

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I posted the itinerary for South Africa and I talked with someone else who was just down there and It was

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Interesting I guess when you go to South Africa you just they just expect you to go morning noon night

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That's just how it is because when he told me how many times he spoke It was about the same number of times.

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I'm gonna be speaking so evidently that is just sort of the way Things are done, but again your support and prayers for that very important let's let's listen to a couple weird things or things that Krauss said before we get to the important part of the

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Canaanites and And Here we go with with Lawrence Krauss But you know the point is among many of my colleagues when

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I write a paper They say it's wrong your papers wrong, and I did it first and I think that's the point with there.

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There's nothing new about a resurrection It's as old as it as every God and every creation, but there's lots of examples

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Dionysus and Jesus are so close to being identical they both were born from a virgin mother They both had a divine father they both were resurrected.

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They both transformed wine into water etc. Etc. Etc Osiris the Egyptian god of life that he would in fact the the new kingdom in it.

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This is almost 2 ,000 years before Christ in principle The idea was that people would be resurrected with Osiris if they followed the correct religious rituals now

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I don't know how many times I've said this but Everybody needs to get this down because here is

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One of the leading voices amongst atheists today a

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Scientist now. I don't know why it is that scientists think that once you have a degree in science that you

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Can go off and talk about anything and be taken as an expert. I don't know why they get that idea

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I mean the arrogance of it is pretty shocking I've met a lot of arrogant scientists a lot of arrogant evolutionary scientists but When they start talking

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As soon as you hear anybody, I don't care who it is anyone who starts talking about Dionysus or Osiris, you know one thing immediately historically, they're morons

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I Mean that's strong words, but I'm surprised, you know, William Lane Craig is even stronger than I am on that subject

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Historically, you know, you're dealing with someone who is clueless Who is junior high school level failure clueless on what they're talking about you just automatically know it and So here's a guy stand in the only reason anyone would do this is if they're doing the red meat thing

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Oh, my followers love this. Let's throw out some red meat for them Because nobody who has any meaningful idea of comparative religion

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History the real nature of Dionysus. I mean folks Being sewn in Zeus's thigh is not a virgin birth.

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Hello. Come on This is a polytheistic system. This is not monotheism you just are obviously cannot think very straight if you come up with this stuff and Osiris Hacked into pieces

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Some pieces missing in the afterlife put together by his wife zombie. That's resurrection.

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Really? This is identical to Jesus Seriously, that is so absurd that it utterly destroys

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Any credibility on the part of the person making the assertion? I mean, it's just you've

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I don't even know what to compare it to it I I just don't it is shocking and Yet there are people sitting the audience going.

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Oh that man is very wise. Oh, it's a good argument and you just It is it is amazing, but he continued

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But the point about the resurrection is that there's no evidence of it There's no evidence of a past muster in a science lab much less a court of law that nothing about again

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There is a reason why people study history and clearly for Lawrence Krauss, it's irrelevant

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All those people with PhDs in history doesn't matter they wasted their time they should have just gotten

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I need to find out what Lawrence Krauss is the dissertation was in it's probably in some kind of, you know, reproductive cycle of a bug someplace and and And and and that but that's enough

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So you go? Evidence for the resurrection certainly wouldn't pass in a science lab as As If events that take place two thousand years ago

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Involving the supernatural are meant to be measured in a science lab seriously, or in a court of law seriously,

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I Mean there is it is basic fundamental first year level stuff in in talking about history to talk about the nature of historical evidence and the sources you use and Stuff like that and you you can't know anything about historical studies and make this kind of statement.

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It's just shocking absolutely shocking that anyone Well, you know what this illustrates you see

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One of the one of the disadvantages one of the one of the bad things about The Massive expansion of human knowledge is that we have long since left the days the

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Renaissance man and what I mean by that is there was a day when there there were men who literally would have a a valid Acceptable usable functional level of knowledge pretty much all across The spectrum of human knowledge itself.

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I mean they could they could sit there and talk about almost anything The way we do education today specializes people and look

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You know, I want my cardiologist to specialize in cardiology

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I Don't really care how much he knows about foot fungus

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I I want him to to specialize in in cardiology before he does anything to me

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So on one level, okay But the problem is once people get that big degree in that one area they think

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I now know everything about every area and Instead of having the humility of going no probably don't

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This is what we're seeing these scientists Who have a specialized knowledge in one particular area?

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utterly ignorant of history utterly ignorant of so many other areas think that because I know a lot about this that must mean

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I know a lot about everything and It just feeds into this modernistic

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Hubris that we see all the time that I see especially in the younger generation people who didn't have the tech that I have

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Couldn't possibly have made meaningful Ethical and moral decisions for example on old nature of marriage and the family maybe

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You know, I mean people running around are saying today if you oppose marriage equality and not a one of them actually believes in marriage

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Quality, but if you oppose marriage equality, you're a bigot Which means that of course every single president

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United States? Prior to the current one and even him when he was elected were a bunch of bigots, right?

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Every generation for I was just too stupid to have thought this through right? No Now did they actually think this through at all?

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They had fundamental beliefs about marriage that precluded even considering it So they were just all bunch of dummies right because they were just they didn't have the tech we have they just had an iPad

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They would have known Anyways, amazing the the hubris. It's hearsay stories written based on oral traditions

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Decades or hundreds of years after the fact which are inconsistent with each other now see how much stuff was thrown into one accusation there

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It's hearsay It's based on tradition. It's not the same thing Written hundreds or decades.

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Well, which one is it and they're not consistent one another If this is this is the classic

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I Probably couldn't really survive cross -examination on any one of these points, so if I throw them all into one sentence,

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I Probably won't have to because it's this scattergun and it's so fast

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That my opponent could never really respond anything thing That's that's how you do it

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That's how you do it I mean if you're really not seeking truth if you're not really a truth seeker if you're really not concerned about being

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Honest and fair and stuff like that. You just you just again you're there for your folks and you're there to attack

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Then that's that's how you do it. There's nothing when you know when dr. Craig tells me and I said it before historians of the

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Bible Theologians and people scholars of the Bible all accept that the resurrection happened reminds me of when

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I debate Alien abduction experts who say well, you know all alien abduction experts say people were abducted by aliens

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Well, that doesn't mean much to me well, and I'll be perfectly honest with you the

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Majority of scholarship Argumentation from From the

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That the William Lane Craig group Isn't Honestly isn't a game -changer for me either.

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I I've never used it. I've never found it to be relevant I've I've always criticized it because you know, how do you define?

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What your group is what group is it that you're talking about here? Are you talking about believing biblical scholars unbelieving bit liberal?

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I just I just don't find it to be a meaningful argument But I'm not sure it's quite

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Parallel with alien abduction stuff either at the at the same time given that it's never been observationally verified

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Is it reasonable to expect that someone comes back from the dead? It's never been observed Never been seen

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So is it reasonable to expect that it happened once when no one could see it and when no one actually reported on it at The time when no one actually reported on it at the time

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I Get it's just I feel sorry for scientists who try to pretend to be historians.

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I mean the application of Krauss's Stuff here to pretty much all of history

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Would leave us utterly ignorant of anything that took place in history at all He doesn't understand the nature of historical inquiry historical

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Information how it's analyzed. He's clueless he wants

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CNN to be on site with video cameras HD probably I mean if it's not high enough quality that's

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That's that's what he is actually demanding and It is just so absurd that it's it's laughable

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Except that this man is teaching young people That's that's what is what is sad in a situation like this, and I'm saying this

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Sitting probably what? What 15 miles away from where this man teaches

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I would assume and What can I say what can I say? All right, but I wanted to talk about what

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William Lane Craig said and Sorry that it seems like yes

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Yeah, we're feeding it too high a quality is that the problem yes, yeah, I got greedy you got greedy yeah, so I I'm feeding at 1080p and apparently that's a bit more than the whole process can handle but YouTube keeps telling me on my end.

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It's good. I don't understand it, but we'll try you know Part and parcel of there's some way of dropping it not right now.

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No so but you know This is living on the bleeding edge, and I mean anyway

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Okay anyway we what I wanted to do is I I wanted to play for you the interaction on The destruction of the

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Cainites let me read to you Deuteronomy chapter 20

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These are the highly offensive verses When you and these are instructions to the people of Israel militarily

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As to how they are to deal with The peoples of the lands into which they are entering

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When you draw near to a city to fight against it offer terms of peace to it And if it responds to you peaceably and it opens to you then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor

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For you, and she'll serve you But if it makes no peace with you But makes war against you then you shall besiege it and then the

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Lord your and when the Lord your God gives it into your Hand you should put all its males to the sword But the women and the little ones the livestock and everything else in the city all its spoil

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You should take as plunder for yourselves, and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies Which Lord your God has given you thus you should you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you

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Which are not cities of the nations here, so in other words that The law there is for Those nation states that are outside the actual territories of the people of Israel But in the cities of these peoples the

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Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance You shall save alive nothing that breathes But you shall devote them to complete destruction the

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Hittites and the Amorites Canaanites and Perizzites the Hivites and the Jebusites as the Lord your God has commanded that that They may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods

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And so you sin against the Lord your God Now that is the great offense according to Lawrence Krauss.

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This is simply genocide you're gonna see that he's inconsistent at this point and Craig does catch him on that but the point is

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Everybody male female children everything to breathe animals livestock everything Now it's really easy for us

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To go and and I've I've done this in my own my own thinking to basically say well

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What you've got going on here is When we look at the actual worship of the

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Canaanite people put them all together the Canaanites Hittites Amorites Perizzites Throw them all together what you

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Have is a an incredible level of debauchery you have Child sacrifice you have sexual sin you probably had a tremendous amount of disease involved

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Because the temple prostitutes male and female and therefore Unlike those outside where you were allowed to keep some alive

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This isn't gonna happen that you can't do this there would be impurity there be disease It's easy to go there, but that's not

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What Deuteronomy 2018 says Deuteronomy 2018 says that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices in other words if you keep the women alive

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There is a danger of syncretism now immediately for the atheist for the unbeliever

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Who cares? Syncretism big deal, but the reality is the

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Biblical command now, and we know what happens. We have the advantage of a little bit of You know hindsight here.

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We know the rest of the story and What is Israel's what leads to the destruction of the nation of Israel?

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cast out of the land destruction the Jerusalem over and over and over again the constant sending of of the

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Prophets the people what is it? religious idolatry

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Syncretism the high places the fact that they did not follow these commands and They were drawn away so the

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Issue that is raised is that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable Practices that they have done for their gods and so you sin against Yahweh your

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Elohim And you're not going to ever get an atheist who doesn't believe in God and doesn't believe in sin to find

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That that's a sufficient reason For the command that was given to the people of Israel They are offended

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God does not have the right these these people they are going to assume these people are innocent

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They don't care that they're sinners. They're not functioning on the basis of the idea that you know what?

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God and And while Craig says this he doesn't say it, right?

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When he says this, but he doesn't say it, right? He says God has the right to determine how long we live well duh

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He does But that's not the point here God has the right to do what to bring his judgment to bear

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To bring his judgment to bear upon sinful human beings and That's what the

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William Lane Craig folks don't want to be talking about. They don't want to talk about the holiness of God They want to talk about bringing judgment to bear against sinful man

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I mean, he'll say all the adults, but that's where the theology is gonna come in.

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Okay, that's what theology So let's let's listen to This exchange,

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I think I think it starts well, we'll find out where it starts Old Testament warfare passages

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This is the God we need to bury in Deuteronomy said kill all men and women He told the Israelites kill all the men and women in a conquered city

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All the men the conquered city and seize the women children and livestock as plunder But of the cities of these people you should kill absolutely everybody

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Now we live in a world where you can't preach Jenna in a modern world in the non -fundamentalist world

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Where you can't preach genocide anymore because we buried God You can't and if someone drowns their children in a bathtub because they say

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God is talking to them We put them in a mental institution Now dr.

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Craig is of loves children but to go to the lengths of Enforcing belief.

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This is what he says To justify this Why take the lives of innocent children if we believe as I do that God's grace is extended to those who die in infancy or As small children the death of these children was actually their salvation

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Therefore God does these children no wrong in taking their lives It's worse. He went on Said who does

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God wrong in commanding the description of the Canaanites not the Canaanite adults for they were corrupt and deserving a judgment

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They deserve to die not the kids because they inherit eternal life Who are the really put people that we should suffer for the poor soldiers who had to kill them?

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If that isn't obscene enough, dr. Craig then a third time went back and thought about this and said, you know what?

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I've come to appreciate as a result of a closer reading of the biblical text that God's command to Israel was not primarily to Exterminate the

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Canaanites but to drive them out of the land if they just left no one had been killed at all Only those who remain were to be utterly exterminated.

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Oh, that's great That Obscenity is the reason that my friend and colleague

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Richard Dawkins will not appear on stage with this man No, that's not why Richard Dawkins will not anymore appear

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I mean he did in Mexico City and he got his head handed to him on a platter Dawkins can't debate

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He's an empty suit when it comes to debate. That's why he won't debate people who can debate.

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That's a lie I'm sorry. We all heard it. We all know it and this is just an excuse

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The Dawkins is using to avoid doing serious debate. He picks and chooses who he's gonna take on Don't don't that ain't flying anywhere that ain't flying anywhere.

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So there's Krauss giving the his understanding of what

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William Lane Craig's position is and So his basic perspective is well

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Craig's saying that I was perfectly fine to kill the adults and The kids are cool because they're going straight to heaven.

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Then they have an exchange. They actually have a discussion and look clearly

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Krauss is Being extremely aggressive here being extremely aggressive and And It does seem to me that Craig is on his on his heels here even even that his tone of voice is extremely high

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He sort of recovers toward the end a little bit My concern is not the debate stuff.

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My concern is the position that Craig enunciates and The fact that it just strikes me that what we have going on here is again, theology matters you start with the wrong theology end up with the wrong apologetic defense and Basically what

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Craig is going to say is That there's really no moral objection here because all the kids just go straight to heaven and Evidently Krauss didn't think of this.

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I Sure did because if you really think about what William Lane Craig's gonna say here is

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He just gave a tremendously good defense for abortion it just became a wonderful way of Filling heaven with all sorts of folks who never have to suffer.

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They just get a free e -ticket straight into heaven Because I don't think

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Bill Craig really believes in original sin He'll talk about it a little bit, but I don't think he really believes in federal headship

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Doesn't really yeah. Well, here's here's the exchange Who has the right to determine whether someone should live or die?

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You'd say it's God You'd say God said the Canaanites should die I mean, I'm going back to it because I find what you said so morally reprehensible that it sickens me well, you have to look at the historical context

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Now are you folks who are applauding on that I wonder have you read the narratives Have you read the historical context of what that's about?

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I read what you said. Do you disagree with anything you said? Yes, but you have to look at the historical context.

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I said a lot more than that What I pointed out children deserved are okay to be killed because they're gonna have eternal salvation

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No, that's what you said of what I said. Well, let's you want to go back and repeat and read it

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I would like to explain it. Okay What I said there is that God Pronounced judgment upon these nation -states that were were inhabiting

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Canaan He had waited four hundred years to bring judgment upon them by the time he did

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So these cultures were incredibly evil Incredibly reprobate and God brought judgment upon them by destroying them as nation -states

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That is to say the command to the Israeli armies was to drive these Canaanite tribes out of the land.

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They were being divested of the land That's what's important to these Middle Eastern peoples and still is today

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It's the land and you would say in fact, Osama bin Laden would say the United States and Australia are morally reprehensible

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And we have to destroy them. What's wrong with him saying that? Now I I stop it just there for a moment.

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This is one of the reasons That in my desire to be consistent

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You have not seen me pursuing some of the argumentation that some of my brethren do in debates about Christianity and Islam Because I recognize that especially in a debate context trying to discuss issues of Old Covenant New Covenant and trying to Differentiate between the theocratic

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Structure of the nation of Israel and then the issue of the news you would have to you'd have to have a real debate

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That it would allow you to actually enunciate biblical paradigms and make contrasts and one of the things that's concerned me some is

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J Smith God love him because of his pacifistic perspective just sometimes just tosses the

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Old Testament right out the window and His Muslim opponents have called him on it I can't do that.

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It won't do that. Don't think you need to do that, but I Recognize that you know, this kind of argument is just made right there

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You've got to be prepared to deal with it You've got to be prepared to discuss Old and New Covenant issues You bet got to be ready to go to Hebrews chapter 8 you got and a lot of a lot of apologists especially just aren't ready to do that because We live in a world we realize those kind of divine proclamations are nonsense and Irrational not really but it's not see

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I've given I've given a moral theory that you didn't explain That explains how this is consistent with an all -loving all just loving.

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Yes Okay. Yes, we didn't love the point is that God now did you catch that all -loving?

36:33

He didn't love the Canaanites. Well Okay, I don't think Krauss it really has any clue as to what we mean by the love of God But I'll be perfectly honest with you having listened to William Lane Craig talk about the subject

36:45

I'm not sure that he's overly solid on the subject either and people who turn omnibenevolence

36:55

Into the overriding Definitive factor of God's dealing with the world. They are generally people who end up checking the

37:02

Old Testament out the window, too You have to yet you must take everything the

37:10

Bible says about the character nature of God not just part and Obviously, I would have been emphasizing at this point the holiness and justice of God Because there's no way of understanding

37:24

What God is doing with the people of Israel outside of using them as judgment There there could have been a thread traced here.

37:33

No, he mentioned the 400 years Yeah, all the way back there. It had said their iniquity was not yet full.

37:40

There had been all this extension of loving kindness and grace and mercy to an undeserving people but at the same time

37:53

What had that brought about it had only increased their iniquity because what had God not done he hadn't sent

37:59

To that famous Amorite high priest He had not sent prophets had he

38:08

Hmm and so what the what's the contrast gonna be the people of Israel? They're gonna do the same things even when

38:13

God sends prophets to them And so it takes the sovereign grace of God to reserve for himself 7 ,000 that remnant who have not bowed the knee to bail, right?

38:26

Hmm. There's something going on here, isn't there? Yeah, there is. Does Lawrence Krauss have a clue what it is? No Does the theology of William Lane Craig the non reformed theology of William Lane Craig allow him to Enunciate this with clarity.

38:39

The answer sadly is no. I've brought God brought judgment upon Those adults by destroying these nation -states and driving them out of the land and giving the land to Israel God brought judgment on all of the

38:54

Canaanites not just the adults Not just the adults now the difficult part of this is the command

39:02

That those who remain behind to fight and to resist to refuse to flee were to be exterminating um

39:10

I'm sorry. I don't see that You know, I suppose you could I suppose you could make some sort of an argument that well if they had just left

39:18

Then they wouldn't have been destroyed. I suppose I don't

39:24

I Would really have a hard time proving in a debate that that's a relevant moral consideration

39:31

I mean we read Deuteronomy 20 and it talked about cities that were far away. I mean outside of that area

39:37

But in that area there was to be complete destruction and there really wasn't any discussion of well, you know, unless they just run off I Trying to make that a relevant part of the argument as if this somehow

39:54

Makes the destruction of those who stay and fight Justifiable as if we're trying to justify

40:03

God's right to bring destruction upon his people. That's the point here folks There there there wasn't any presentation of look if God had used an earthquake to flatten all these cities in one day

40:18

Then what would be the problem? It would have been everything breathing gone God could have done that to shake in the earth.

40:25

All the buildings fall down. Everybody dies doesn't mill the night. That's it And you see the problem is that's

40:32

Lawrence Krauss his problem. He doesn't believe God has the right to bring judgment against sin so here's a wonderful opportunity to bring a gospel message about the fact that as Jesus said

40:45

The wrath of God, you know abides upon every one of us Here's a perfect opportunity

40:51

Passed up because we don't want to offend the natural man We don't want to offend because you see if our apologetic methodology is

40:59

I want to win these people over and be really winsome Then you don't want to scandalize them scandalids on scandalids

41:08

Oh scandal on Even the children Yeah and my point there is that God is the author and giver of life has the right to take and give life as he sees fit now now what

41:20

Yeah, but that's not the point here It's not just God as the author and giver of life can give or take

41:27

This is God as judge bringing judgment. He's already said that these people were bad people

41:34

He is not obligated to prolong my existence for what God has decided.

41:40

Let me finish God has the right to give and take life as he sees fit In fact, all of us will die someday and some children die in infancy earlier than others

41:50

God had the right to take the lives of those children if he so will but God didn't the Israelites did right he now before before we get into that before we

42:00

Krauss shifts his argument It would have been so helpful if the

42:07

Bible had been brought in here someplace maybe just Quoting, you know,

42:13

I know that the people in that audience are not going to accept Deuteronomy 2018 but folks that's what

42:21

God has given to us and maybe just maybe if we emphasize the holiness of God and if we emphasize who he really is and if we emphasize that you know

42:33

That they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices Which we're doing all through our society these days with abortion and everything else

42:41

Maybe God might use that to open the hearts and minds of his people because of well

42:47

If you don't really believe he has a people that he's drawing to himself, then you're not gonna see see the point folks Theology matters where you start is going to determine everything else even how you the very emphasis that you use in the answers that you're giving will be determined by where you start and if you don't believe that God has a

43:06

Specific people and if you don't believe that the way they're saved is that God uses the Word of God By the

43:12

Spirit of God to open their hearts and minds But you have to somehow make them feel real good so they can make a decision of the seat

43:20

This goes back to the last time we talked about unbelievable remember Where you had the fellow on and in dialogue with with dr.

43:28

Oliphant on on on Apologetic methodology and it it in the discussions that came up after that.

43:35

What was the main thing? Well, what is man's capacity? What is man's ability? Well, if man is dead in his sin and dependent completely and totally upon the grace of God Then you're gonna approach

43:45

Apologetics differently than if you view man differently and the fact the matter is the Bible is really clear on that matter

43:50

It really really is So here you see it coming out. He that's that's that's a very good point.

43:57

He used Israel as an instrument You know, pardon me. How do you know? How do you know they weren't just an imperialistic power who wanted to have a land because it was better for growing things

44:06

But if you say that then there's no objection to divine command morality The whole point here is that you're saying there's some sort of inconsistency in Affirming that God is all just and all -loving

44:18

Okay Now he just smacked Krauss right out of the room and Krauss obviously is is clueless about it because Krauss had just shifted his argument

44:26

He just shifted his argument from we have to bury this God. We have buried this

44:31

God Because we can't believe in a God like this Too well, what if God had nothing to do with it?

44:37

and it was just some imperialistic power that just wanted to have better crop growing region and Craig catches him and says whoa changing your objection now, huh?

44:48

And he's very good at that. Bill Craig's a smart guy and You can learn something from that.

44:54

I mean people People do that all the time. I listen to I'll listen to people arguing, you know,

45:00

I do a lot of traveling So I sit in airports all the time and I listen to people talking and I'm just amazed at the

45:07

Logic and irrationality of the vast majority of the people that I'm listening to that is bouncing here and nobody ever catches them on No one ever says, uh, excuse me.

45:15

You just changed your argument right in the middle of things there But Craig caught him on it and does Krauss care?

45:20

No, not really and yet he issued these commands if you don't think he issued the commands if you think these are just legends or Fables, then there's no problem.

45:29

The whole problem only arises If you think and the Christian rise

45:34

Christians rise up and go yay a point for our side Wait, I haven't got to my critical point here yet though that is

45:43

God has the right to give and take Somebody somebody on Twitter just said

45:48

I can't believe he just said winsome. I did say winsome What is my vocabulary that shallow and small that I don't know the word winsome

45:59

I mean, there's some people in my chat channel have vocabulary. Is there this like Massive things and I'm very jealous of that but I I do read books

46:07

Let's take life as he sees fit. He can take a child's life now if he wants rather than letting that child live longer

46:14

That's not the point the points judgment the point of what the people of Israel doing is judgment It is judgment upon sinful people for the purpose of the production of holiness on the part of God's people and you see again

46:28

God's purposes God has the right to do with his creation as he sees fit

46:36

God has the right to Redeem a people who are undeserving of Redemption Undeserving It's not because the people of Israel are better than somebody else

46:52

God has the right to redeem and undeserving people and to make them a holy people and to remove

47:03

Stumbling blocks to them and the fact that the people didn't do this

47:10

They didn't follow through on God's command. What did it result in? We see it.

47:16

We saw it. It's right there. What he did in this case was he took the lives of these children

47:22

Via the instrument of his judgment namely Israel now

47:27

The question is did he wrong those children in doing that? That's the issue Did he do something wrong now?

47:35

I have to stop that is not the issue It's coming from the perspective of man

47:42

You're specifically putting God in the dock here You're you're capitulating to the rebel sinner, how can we not see this?

47:59

Instead of doing what you should be doing and that is Demonstrating that Krauss and all his cronies in the audience and his little buzzer and everything else

48:08

Have no right to be staying in judgment of God that in point of fact they are just as guilty before their

48:14

Creator as any one of those Canaanites were and That the wrath of God abides upon them

48:23

Instead you're making them the judges and Saying well, let's look at it from the children's point of view

48:34

What I mean, it's it's it's surrender.

48:39

It's capitulation This is not apologetics Not biblical apologetics

48:47

It's not it's not giving a reason for the hope that's within you It's letting the unbeliever put

48:53

God in the position of having to defend himself and what does it come from? Theology matters.

49:00

It's where you start. That's what's gonna determine it That's why we do these and that's why people you're always picking a lane

49:06

Like it's just because it helps to illustrate the vast difference between the two perspectives

49:14

You know, I'm sure that Bill Craig and I could sit down and have a wonderful time talking about stuff

49:22

But it would all end up coming back to the fundamental differences we have in theology

49:27

I'm sure he's a wonderfully nice guy. I really do But my concern isn't about who's the nicer guy

49:37

Bill Craig is probably nicer than I am But you see I don't matter and neither does he

49:43

You see I've gotten that point in life, you know Where I realize I'm not gonna be here forever

49:49

It's what I leave behind that matters And so I want to get past all the petty personal stuff and I want to leave something behind that's gonna have value

49:57

When I'm dead and gone and the culture's moved on and things have changed

50:03

God's truth won't have changed That's what's important. So it's not about me and Bill Craig or anything else it is about the fact that this type of apologetics feeds directly in the hands of the rebel sinner and it in fact encourages him to judge his creator and That's why

50:25

I stand against it To those children in some way and my point is no he did not because those children went to an eternity of incomprehensible joy and eternal life in the presence of a loving

50:41

God now Did you catch that the people in the audience ain't buying this either? And I ain't buying it either

50:49

Once again, we're back to infants who die in infancy Did he not think this through to realize that he has just endorsed the idea that abortion fills heaven with little babies and That it's okay

51:08

God hasn't wronged those little babies because they're all going to heaven now all the stuff about fallen

51:16

Adam and Elect infants and all the rest that stuff. We've discussed it many times before and unfortunately

51:23

For most folks, it's a real emotional issue and they just don't want to even touch it but Here you have

51:29

Bill Craig in a debate basically saying nope, I Will actually defend the goodness of God based upon the fact that he takes all those kids to heaven rather than Rather than what sound theology would require you to enunciate and That is

51:50

God has the right to bring his judgment to bear upon all the fallen sons and daughters of Adam at any point in time and To be able to make a statement like that.

52:07

You've got to have a whole lot bigger theology than non -reformed and I would believe

52:13

Sub -biblical Christianity offers and so it's understandable why they don't go there.

52:19

It's understand why they don't go there tough topic difficult issues, but I Think we have to talk about it.

52:30

There aren't too many other places where it's getting talked about at least not in this type of context That's what the dividing line is all about.

52:40

I just realized Even if I want to take a break, we really can't do breaks right now either, huh? But there's there's stuff in there.

52:49

Well, we we could but I've got Stuff we could use but the thing is

52:54

I don't have a graphic to pop up You know, we could have some cool graphics in the future.

53:00

We could show, you know, yeah, we could well, I've got a few obvious Yes, there you go.

53:06

Ooh, what every you need to get you Let's see you do a commercial here You need to get your copy of what every

53:13

Christian needs to know about the Quran. This book is not endorsed by In fact, it was sent back unopened by Eric and Cantor.

53:25

Yeah. Okay. There we go. We could have I hadn't even thought about You know, if can you imagine if we let

53:31

Barry loose with video? Yeah, that could be dangerous and But it could but yeah, it's this this can do that But right now

53:39

I've got people screaming bloody murder about the fact that I got too greedy and it's all I know I've been I actually almost stopped and said would you people quit whining?

53:48

You're distracting me when people in channel are whining about what's going on. It's hard for me to stay focused

53:56

Well, I'm leaving this plane working y 'all a bunch of jerks. I was like what we'll get it fixed later yeah,

54:04

I told you I should have gone back to the old intro that I used to use 15 years ago as Webcasting live held together with bailing wire and duct tape.

54:14

It's the dividing line That's well because that's how it was done back then and still is

54:21

Basically, I mean I've got I mean, you know that thing sitting there. It's held together with little nails.

54:27

It's not even glued It's yeah gonna someday. It's just gonna go right right in the middle. It's gonna be sort of fun to watch anyway

54:35

No, now meet now. I'm being said I'm I'm oppressive it's I Can't I can't live for I can't win for time.

54:43

Anyways Oh Okay, the guy who said about winsome

54:50

No, just the opposite It's notable because you're usually above the use of buzzwords of which winsome has been number one in the year

54:56

I didn't know that I've not heard that. No, I haven't nobody reformed Baptist.

55:01

Don't use that term I guess that's what really caused him a problem there. But anyhow, we're gonna switch gears here and Actually, so we're gonna do a jumbo today or just kill it.

55:10

Yeah. Okay Yeah, it's supposed to be it's we were supposed to go 90 minutes, huh, I've got it

55:16

I've got we've only got what I'm almost thinking I'm gonna have to throw in another dividing line between now and time

55:22

I leave to get all the stuff reviewed, but I've tried to get to stuff I've tried

55:28

I'll get down there and I'll I'll ask Bashir and Yusuf So did you listen to any of that?

55:35

Not so much watching that do you listen and I think they I think they will have and my hope really is that it will make for better Yeah better debates once we once we get down there.

55:46

So by the way, since we're in the middle of things And you're talking about South Africa we

55:54

Right now I'll just give a little ministry report here. This trip is for our normal budget really expensive yeah, and Right now

56:05

I in fact I did a a report this morning Donations to the amount of money that we've spent we've bought your airline tickets.

56:13

I'm not sure what the accommodation situation down. There's gonna be There's gonna be a lot of things coming our way

56:19

We're broke even Not dead broke. We're broke even Okay, so so any any cost that come up things like that, but we're pretty much

56:33

The flight is covered flights covered and and the stay -in and I Know I'm gonna have to recharge my oyster card when

56:41

I get there Yeah, I'm gonna have to take the tube over to premiere and stuff But yeah, actually now that I just think about I didn't include the the hotel because that hasn't actually been charged the card yet the hotel in London That'll put us

56:54

Right there. So we still need help to finish it off and just wanted to say that well good

57:00

I really appreciate all of that obviously getting six

57:07

Debates out of one. Well, I'm sorry six debates and two unbelievable radio broadcasts out of one trip

57:17

That's gonna be a lot normally these you might get two three debates the most we're gonna be getting twice that in a very short period of time, but Obviously right now.

57:27

My hope is that you all will pray for my health I just keep having thoughts of 2005 when

57:34

I went over there and started getting sick at the British Library British Museum and Just how completely blasted

57:43

I was on that particular trip. And yeah, we can't we can't have that happen It's nice. I mean when you get back we need to have you in one piece

57:50

That'd be nice too. And I don't know because I've I don't I have a very short turnaround time Yeah before Texas right was voted

57:56

Balcom and then the very next weekend the solo scriptura conference up in Canada, so yeah,

58:02

I can't come back just you know Just to give some perspective and I think I may have mentioned this last show that your trip back

58:09

Is gonna have two stops, but overall you will be traveling for 28 hours

58:17

Straight I go stir crazy between here in New York. I know you do you and I can't understand how you do it

58:23

But well, I've never done anything like that That's one of the reasons we stopped in London was to break up the trip on the way out

58:30

That will help a lot to have that one extra day in London some of the time shift because I was looking yesterday

58:37

South Africa is two hours Past it's it's plus two.

58:42

So it'll be a 10 -hour difference here to Phoenix It's gonna be a difference there. So that you know,

58:49

I went to Australia the the 17 -hour shift just Turned my brain into jello that night.

58:55

Oh, that was funny But speaking of Australia speaking of Australia Talking with with our folks down our friends down in Sydney watched a debate recently with a very sharp

59:12

Muslim apologist down there that I really would love to have an opportunity of engaging and Starting to starting to actually think about 2014 in Australia, but But I can't give you details right now.

59:29

I can't give you details right now but the great one

59:35

The great Michael O 'Fallon has been in touch with me Alaska The first thought of all of our listeners whatever you think of Michael Fallon is

59:47

Alaska yes, the great Michael Fallon has been in touch with me and he's very very very very very serious about arranging a reformation tour

59:58

Which would be in England and going over to the continent places like Geneva Geneva Land of Calvin You're just thinking ahead

01:00:15

What he's gonna do right, yeah anyway so He's thinking late next year early 2015 something like that.

01:00:25

He's sort of saying where do you want to go? What do you want to do? What's places you want to go? you know talking about like Doing what he's done with some other people where you actually

01:00:37

Close down Calvin's Church for an hour and you actually get to bring your people in and preach in the church and But what we would do is we wouldn't just you know

01:00:50

They did that for some stuff with Calvin in like 2009 but we would do is we'd invite the people there locally in and you know make it a gospel preaching type thing and Stuff like that.

01:01:01

We bring a baptistry in No, because the sound that would be heard would be

01:01:07

Calvin spinning in his grave coming out I don't do that kill the

01:01:13

Anabaptist. You know anyways We shouldn't be doing that with a camera sitting there should we know we should not be doing that at all

01:01:20

What are we doing here? I don't know. We didn't have a break. And so we're just gonna Move on into what we're talking about here.

01:01:27

Yes, that's right. You interrupted me with South Africa. That was the problem there. Okay Yes, so Monty says have to come to Scotland on a

01:01:35

Reformation tour. Well, we're still talking about it. I would love to go To my to my homeland.

01:01:42

Yes Because then I could bring my my kilts and just have a wonderful time in Scotland but Anyways, we'll we'll see where it ends up ends up going but we'll obviously keep you apprised of those those things in in the future, but Let's get back to what we're doing here the important stuff and that is

01:02:02

I listened once again to a debate I'm sorry. I don't remember who

01:02:08

Bashir Vania's Second was and I don't remember who Jay Smith's primary was that Jay was actually the secondary in this a day

01:02:15

They did the same way. They have two debaters, which is a little bit weird. I haven't done a lot of that. Oh Great My zombie impression is poor.

01:02:25

I wasn't trying to really impersonate a zombie Because I don't really know how

01:02:30

John Calvin would sound as a zombie to begin with. I mean no, no, so I These are my friends

01:02:39

These are my no wonder Eric and Canada's the way Eric and Canada is when these are my friends

01:02:45

And I'm not even gonna mention who's I'm not even I am NOT going to give credit to a person who would insult me about my zombie impersonation because it really wasn't a

01:02:55

Zombie impersonation in the first place. I think that's just a French zombie. That's true What would that what would that be like?

01:03:02

Could we even tell no now? Never mind? I'm sorry I'd better get going here before I get into a lot of trouble.

01:03:08

All right, but sure Vanya Gave an opening presentation on the Muslim understanding of salvation primarily

01:03:16

Moving off of that talking about the Bible, but there were a number of things I wanted to respond to So once again,

01:03:22

I'm playing this a little bit faster And I'm gonna try to be a little bit briefer in my responses

01:03:27

But this is again, I believe I think one of the dialogues. I hope one of the dialogues is on salvation

01:03:34

If not, it's one we need to do but let's let's dive into it Our brother has just emphasized cannot be overestimated

01:03:41

In fact, the Quran tells us in chapter 3 verse 92 You will never attain righteousness Bira until you spend of that which you love

01:03:49

Before you love your wealth you love yourself so you're going to have to spend of yourself in service to humanity and I'm sure you will agree folks.

01:03:57

Nothing wrong in trying to make the world a better place a Brief word here about the inherent nature of man

01:04:05

The Islamic position is that man is inherently good And I would argue that my

01:04:13

Christian brothers and sisters must take the capacity For sin in man for the inherent nature of man.

01:04:19

Now, there is a huge difference massive difference

01:04:26

Now again, I do detect Just as We were just talking about William Lane Craig and we have fundamental theological differences and many of them come down to soteriology

01:04:40

I do detect some pretty wide variations amongst

01:04:45

Muslims on How they understand Quote -unquote salvation obviously salvation is not the primary term

01:04:55

That they would be utilizing but but how it is that they have a right relationship with God Where they're going to paradise how they're going to be judged the nature of the scales there's a there's a lot of Variation there just as there's a lot of variation in fact,

01:05:13

I mentioned in Twitter this week that on one of my rides I listened to a book that Shabir Ali had

01:05:23

Promoted or referenced On the verification of Hadith very interesting.

01:05:31

I mean if you really take this book seriously You would have to reject major portions of the

01:05:40

Sunnah as as But it was very clear to me what the author was doing was he had an understanding of the

01:05:48

Quran and the concept of free will Because the topic he chose to examine was

01:05:55

Hadith narrations relating to Qadr or predestination and It was fascinating to listen to a

01:06:04

Muslim primarily promoting a free will theism and Trying to make that work and as a result ending up Rejecting I Think I didn't go back and check but I think some of the

01:06:19

Hadith that he ended up rejecting were moved to water they were they were universally accepted, but I guess not universally accepted and But it was real obvious that here you had someone who had one particular slant on this subject and was making everything fit into that paradigm and You know, we've observed that in a lot of different places even on our side of the of the divide shall we say and So there's there's different understandings, but here is a direct statement from Bashir man is

01:06:53

Essentially good you can understand why then you have the idea

01:07:03

Coming across of there's no need for atonement. There's no need for redemption. There's no need for the cross

01:07:09

But at the same time if man's essentially good, how come there are so many people in the hellfire?

01:07:17

Because I'm assuming that Bashir would not take the perspective of this book. I was talking about and would accept the authority of the

01:07:27

Hadith that narrate for example the idea of the angel coming and at 40 days and writing whether you're going to to paradise you're going to the hellfire and and the narration of the of the

01:07:39

Hadith about the person who does the deeds of the people of the fire until what's written for him overtakes Him and he's in a hand's breadth of going into the fire and then he goes into paradise and vice versa and all the rest that stuff

01:07:50

How does that all fit together? That's gonna be one of the issues I think needs to be needs to be discussed

01:07:56

Let me give you an example. The nature of fire is to burn it cannot do anything else It is its nature man.

01:08:02

On the other hand is capable of doing good works Is man capable of doing good works? See that again is is an issue that divides a lot of people

01:08:14

I think a lot of Christians would say oh, yeah, people can do good works But I think if you're consistent with the entirety of the biblical canon

01:08:22

You know, you do have those statements even the plowing of the of the of the Wicked is sin.

01:08:29

I Mean, what does it mean to do a good work? We just have a very very different understanding of what a good work is in other words

01:08:38

We view it from God's perspective and we ask the question can anything that is unclean Perform that which is truly holy before a holy

01:08:47

God. The only reason that Christians can do good works is by grace We have been changed we have been we have been raised to spiritual life.

01:08:58

And even then the good works that we do are Tainted with ignorance and our fallen nature.

01:09:05

So I would say That not only do Christians have a considerably higher view of the nature of God's sovereignty

01:09:16

Than what is found in Islam because of the incarnation God's involvement in Fulfilling his own decree and time etc, etc

01:09:28

But I would certainly say that we have a much higher view of the justice and holiness of God This is not only illustrated here

01:09:36

In what it means do good works, but it's also illustrated in the idea Fundamental incoherence from my perspective in Islamic theology that God can simply forgive sin in the sense of There being no

01:09:53

Fulfillment of his law his law can just simply be cast aside No atonement.

01:09:58

No, no fulfillment of the of the law So there becomes a division between the law and God's holy nature in Islam that does not exist at least in biblical

01:10:07

Christianity So one cannot say that the nature of man is inherently to be sinful

01:10:14

Indeed chapter 15 verse 29 of the Quran. The Quran says God says when

01:10:21

I created man, I breathed something of my spirit into him something of my spirit

01:10:28

Now that's interesting, what does that mean something of my spirit? You know, this raises the question.

01:10:35

What is the spirit in Islamic understanding? There is no

01:10:40

Holy Spirit. I mean the Holy Spirit is an angel. So what what does that mean? and Because they most

01:10:48

Muslims avoid the phraseology image of God because there can be no image of God That's far too intimate

01:10:57

So What does it mean to breathe of One spirit into man the

01:11:03

Bible tells us man is made in the spiritual image of God Now is the spirit of God good or evil?

01:11:12

rhetorical question folks, I Think I should also mention that in Islam Sun is inherited.

01:11:20

Sorry Sun is acquired. It is not inherited sin is Acquired not inherited

01:11:27

Well, what about a sinful nature? What about that bent to sin? What about that corruption of nature?

01:11:33

well, that corruption is denied and That's a fundamental difference between the two sides

01:11:39

Now if you buy into the system of Islam of salvation believe and good works

01:11:45

I think you will agree that it is relatively simple Elegant and I think you can understand it

01:11:52

With due respect when it comes to the salvation in Christianity in my opinion, it is still a work in progress

01:11:58

Now this is really interesting. Um, I would think if you only had 20 minutes you could really spend that whole time on a very basic presentation of what you mean by salvation and and how you were made right with God and yet he's already turning to the

01:12:19

Bible into Christianity and And he's described it well, it's you know, pretty simple thing, you know, you got the scales get your good works and Yet we know that doesn't work.

01:12:29

I mean if this is another illustration again I say to Bashir with all due respect

01:12:35

This is another illustration of why I would really say to my Muslim opponents. You really should spend some time

01:12:43

Reading some of the New Testament Entire books maybe like Hebrews and Romans Getting understanding because we've we've been dealing with the nature of man and sin for a long time

01:12:54

And it just doesn't seem that Islam understands some of the insights that you can gain from looking at Romans 1 2 & 3 for example and The the simplicity of this

01:13:10

Is seen as a great thing and well y 'all are still in a work in progress well, it's it could be interesting to see you're gonna find the

01:13:19

Example, he's gonna use here rather interesting because it's directly relevant to us but for many

01:13:26

Muslims The fact that well, you know what? We've got it off. We've you know, we've got all figured out

01:13:33

We know what the the Sunnah is. We know the Sharia is and there's really no questions anymore That's supposed to be a beautiful thing.

01:13:39

There are a lot of Muslims ago, man. We've just become stale When when people stop arguing with one another

01:13:47

Then people aren't asking questions or thinking anymore. That's not necessarily a good thing At all.

01:13:53

Why do I say that? Well, even as we speak right now, there is a debate raging the

01:13:59

Christian world. Okay, you ready folks now Now most of you I'm sure Almost nobody in this audience has actually listened to this debate before right?

01:14:10

so What do you think the great debate raging in the

01:14:16

Christian world is why do you think the great debate is? You're gonna be surprised to discover what the great debate raging in the

01:14:24

Christian world is Those that believe in what they call limited atonement and other

01:14:30

Christians who believe in what they call universal atonement So there you go folks. You didn't know this

01:14:36

But the great debate is between limited atonement and universal atonement now we would recognize that that's actually a small subset of the debate between monergists and synergists

01:14:52

But it is interesting to get the view of an outsider that the great debate is is actually about particular redemption and The extent of the atonement and things like that and from the

01:15:07

Islamic perspective if we're still debating this and nobody really knows That's obviously not the case

01:15:12

I Mean just because there's disagreement Between people on the subject doesn't mean the truth isn't known.

01:15:21

There's disagreement on everything But again from the Islamic mindset that uniformitarianism

01:15:28

That you see in much of especially Sunni Islam in places like Egypt and places like that That's taken as a well, we've got to figure it out

01:15:37

Rather than from my perspective Being a rather negative thing, which means people aren't asking questions anymore.

01:15:43

What does this mean? Well, firstly those that believe in limited atonement insist That God chose the elect

01:15:52

Predestination God already chose those who wanted who he felt he wants to save Not on the basis of merit

01:15:59

God simply chose them well at least You got to give the man credit he's gonna get it wrong here in a second

01:16:06

But at that point not on the basis of merit So he understands unconditional election and how many times have

01:16:12

I said? Most objections to particular redemption are actually objections to unconditional election That's why most four -pointers aren't really four -pointers at all and That's what the rest of us.

01:16:24

Well Well No, that's that's that's not actually what we we believe it's not a matter of as for the rest of you tough

01:16:38

The reality is that all mankind is guilty before God all mankind is worthy of condemnation and God has in his infinite mercy and grace chosen to extend

01:16:53

Mercy and grace to save a particular people it is unmerited as you correctly said

01:17:00

But is actually demerited because these are rebel sinners. These aren't just good people

01:17:06

That's what one of the differences between us on the nature of sin and so on so forth and so as To the rest of us well

01:17:15

Bashir obviously my hope and prayer is you are one of God's elect I don't know. That's why I proclaim the gospel to everybody

01:17:21

When I go to South Africa, I am absolutely Confident that God has his elect people even amongst the

01:17:30

Muslims and That is why I will unashamedly and openly proclaim

01:17:37

Jesus Christ to you because I believe that any Person who turns in repentance and faith

01:17:43

Jesus Christ will find him to be a perfect Savior Now am

01:17:48

I denying election by saying that no because I know Nature of man man is enslaved to sin

01:17:54

Jesus said he who commits sin is a slave of sin So anyone who can do the good deeds of repentance and faith have been able to do so only because they've been enabled by God So since I don't know who the elect are

01:18:09

I can promiscuously Proclaim how's that a for a good term? I don't think that's a one of the buzzwords.

01:18:17

I can promiscuously proclaim the gospel to everybody Leaving it up to the

01:18:23

Spirit of God and the Word of God to draw the elect of God to Jesus Christ I don't have to know who they are

01:18:29

Because I could say to anyone if you'll return in repentance and faith To Jesus Christ you'll find him to be a perfect Savior and anybody who will do that can only do so Because God works a miracle of regeneration in their hearts.

01:18:45

There you go So it's a matter not a matter of just tough For the rest of us and I'm hoping that that's not the case with Bashir but the rest

01:18:58

Will have no desire to bow the knee before the true God. They will either engage in idolatry false religion or Throw off all such restraints and just live according to dictates the world, whatever it might be

01:19:12

But they will not turn to repentance in faith. They love their sin and will pursue that They use political verses to justify their position the opposing party says no no hold on God Did not do that we believe in universal salvation which means that God died for the sons of humanity

01:19:34

That's not the terminology. They would use they would not say universal salvation. They would say universal atonement Making it a potential

01:19:42

It's a potential atonement Jesus's death actually doesn't save anybody It just makes everybody savable to use the terms of Norman Geisler Which implies that every single human being has the potential to be saved provided he believes that Jesus peace upon him

01:19:57

Well, there's a potential right there died for his sons however

01:20:03

The other party says well that is not logical you see if Jesus died

01:20:09

For the sons of humanity by the way, neither the two guys is debating or reformed So it is this was it never came back up again.

01:20:17

They were they were like no, that's not Then why should there still be a judgment day?

01:20:24

Why should God still judge the price has been paid? So we have a problem and I'm quite curious as to know which of these two schools of thoughts my brothers are advocating here

01:20:38

Yes, they are speaking about the narrow gate. Yeah, they're they're not gonna They're not gonna touch that with a 10 -foot pole.

01:20:45

You can tell when non -Calvinists do not want to be Dragged into the

01:20:52

Calvinism Arminianism debate in the middle of an Debate on on Islam.

01:20:57

That's probably not the best time to be doing anyway I want to know how narrow is that gate or is the gate already closed and we are simply going through the motions so We have a problem.

01:21:09

I Didn't hear what the problem was I Mean, I'd be happy.

01:21:14

I mean one one of my talks in South Africa is on reformed theology doesn't matter. So great and I'm sure

01:21:20

Bashir would be welcome be happy to explain You know my position on that and the

01:21:28

Bible's position on the perfection of the atoning work of Christ I think that's extremely important But I don't see how it's a problem.

01:21:38

Just to change gears at the stage I think it would be wise to perhaps address some of the more pressing concerns that my brother raised here as well

01:21:46

Firstly the often asked question. Do I as a Muslim know that I'm going to be saved and the answer is no

01:21:54

But I trust God to know that is called faith or iman Now this attitude this humble attitude.

01:22:02

I believe is quite in conformity with the teachings of Jesus peace be upon him For example in Matthew chapter 7 verse 21

01:22:08

Jesus states He says not everyone who says unto me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven

01:22:13

But only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven now, it's interesting

01:22:19

I've never quite understood why my Muslim friends quote These texts from Jesus without really hearing what he's saying

01:22:29

They they and we need didn't understand how they hear these texts Part of what they're hearing there is you shouldn't call

01:22:37

Jesus Lord that had nothing to do with what Jesus was saying Jesus fully accepted

01:22:43

Utilization of the term kudos of himself his disciples used it. He accepted it his point was there were gonna be people

01:22:52

Who acknowledged his exalted position but who did not obey his commands and There's a huge difference there and so the point is

01:23:07

They called him Lord, but they did not Obey him they did they did not live consistently with the profession that was there

01:23:15

There was nothing wrong about calling him Lord at all on that day the day of judgment Many will come to me and say

01:23:22

Lord Lord did we not prophesize in your name? Did we not do many mighty works in your name? Did we not cast out many demons in your name and I Jesus will say unto them depart from me you evildoers

01:23:31

I never knew you now does Bashir really believe Jesus said that is Jesus Lord Is he the judge who's the judge?

01:23:43

I mean most Muslims believe Jesus is just the Jewish Messiah He's not Lord he's certainly not gonna be the judge of all mankind and Yet that's what's being presented here

01:23:55

He will be saying this to Christians not to Muslims so where the certainty comes from in Christendom, I don't know well

01:24:04

Where does a certainty come from well because? I'm not the one who saves myself

01:24:12

Jesus Christ is the one who saves me and you've missed the point of Matthew there because he's talking about disciples

01:24:21

You know you've got such a strong works Righteousness mentality in your mind Bashir that you're not hearing what

01:24:27

Jesus was actually saying There will be a consistency between a person's life and their profession yes

01:24:33

But it's not my works that add to what Christ has done The only reason any of us can have any certainty whatsoever is because of the one who provides our salvation

01:24:43

That's why the only consistent way of doing that is believing that Jesus Christ really saves his people not that he makes salvation a potentiality

01:24:52

I would strongly recommend you listen carefully To Jesus's sermon in the synagogue at Capernaum in John chapter 6

01:25:03

There you have Jesus explaining What real faith is there you have

01:25:08

Jesus explaining? What he as a perfect Savior is capable and able to do in Bringing about the salvation of his people and that in fact it is the father's will for him

01:25:20

That of all that has been given to him he lose nothing but raise it up on the last day and So the question is can he accomplish that?

01:25:31

Christians believe he can and so our confidence is not in ourselves Our confidence is in Jesus Christ Our confidence is in the perfection of his atonement our confidence is in the work of the

01:25:42

Holy Spirit Our confidence is in the father who has decreed all these things our confidence is in the

01:25:48

Trinity Not within ourselves That is the key issue.

01:25:54

Well, I'm gonna pick up at that point. I only got I got almost halfway through actually That that material but I want to continue with that.

01:26:02

I want to be able to finish up This material on salvation should have enough time to do that and get back to you

01:26:07

So this mail and maybe wrap all this up before we we head to South Africa at the end of next week

01:26:15

So, thank you for joining us on the dividing line today I'm not sure how we're supposed to get out of here, but I'm just gonna toss it back to the main booth