SRR 40 | Roman Catholics and Their Queen Part 2

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SRR #43 | Roman Catholics and Their Queen Part 3

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You're listening to Semper Ephraim on the radio where the Bible alone and the Bible in its entirety is applied to all of life
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There are many people who do not want to hear the truth because it will shake up the false Hope they have that they're going into heaven when indeed they are not
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Christ is our King Scripture is our law Scripture and the laws of our country now collide head -on now just to make it clear
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We don't bow down to Caesar So what does
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Paul do when he gets his big shot at the Areopagus watch him? Now not only has
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Paul not compromised in order to get here But once he's here, he says your worldview is wrong.
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Your philosophy is wrong. It's not just wrong It's an affront to God you ought to know better.
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You're in sin But the good news is God has extended to you an opportunity to repent
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All right, everybody welcome back to another episode of Semper Ephraim on the radio My name is Tim and I'm gonna be your host today.
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I have with me the other Tim the Better theologian Tim Tim Kaufman with us.
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He is he's back for another episode on Mary and Just remind everybody.
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We are part of the Bible thumping wingnet Network and we are putting out blogs so I just want to keep telling everybody to go to the to the webpage and Create yourself a profile and then you can join
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Different podcast groups and whenever that podcast does something you'll get a notification an email notification
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To keep up with what they've got going on. So there's a number of other podcasts on there to check out and We'd definitely
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Recommend them to you. So Tim Real quick question before we get into the discussion for today
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Did you do you still listen to the Bible Answer Man?
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Well after last week's episode, I definitely gave him a good listen. So yes, I did listen
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Yeah, I'm gonna take your last episode and not listen to him anymore Well, did you uh,
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I guess by any chance you didn't you didn't hear me on the Bible Answer Man. Did you know? I didn't
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I was I tried to listen and it went on and on and on and there are a lot of different colors what I Did hear was I know that James White?
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picked Picked apart all of Hank's answers. Yeah, I understand that you were on that one too.
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And you know, I got lost in the James White's episode on Hank Hanegraaff was even longer than Hank Hanegraaff.
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And so yeah, I was running out of time it's kind of funny though, because I decided to call in because I Because I used to listen to Hank Hanegraaff back in the day and I wanted to know if He would actually affirm the doctrine of justification by faith alone and my wife told me that She had put the baby down for a nap and she left me both boys and she said
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I'm gonna run to the store real fast and so I was in the living room with both boys and waiting waiting to to come on the air and As soon as uh, as soon as I went on I got nervous because I was
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I was disorganized and I started rambling because I was thinking I want to Have a conversation with this guy and I know he's gonna cut me off.
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I Know I know he's gonna he's gonna Just cut me off and and give a long -winded answer about nothing and do his talking points
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And so I even asked I said, you know I'd like to have a discussion with you and and I'm walking around trying to keep the boys
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You know entertained or whatever and and I didn't even have my notes in front of me so I was kind of bouncing all over the place and it's funny because I told
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Hank Hanegraaff I said, you know, I do a podcast and because I was gonna tell him like I'm you know
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Probably going to be talking about this on our podcast And the first thing he did was he cut me off and he said
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I'm not interested in your podcast. I was like, oh I'm completely naive in hindsight.
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I look back and I'm thinking yeah, that was naive of me to think that I could actually discuss this with him on his show and and basically what what
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I what I feared would happen actually happened I I got cut off and So I just wanted to know if he would affirm the doctrine of justification by faith alone which which in my perspective he didn't in On Monday's episode he had a caller call in who asked about Roman Catholicism pointing out that that we don't hold to the same essentials that they don't hold to the essentials because they have a different gospel and he referred back to James chapter 2 and he defined faith as an active faith.
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It sounded very very much in line with what Roman Catholics would say and and just made a mess of James chapter 2 and so my whole goal was just to get him to affirm the doctrine of justification by faith alone because if he can't do that, then ultimately he wouldn't be a
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Christian and He would fall into the condemnation that Paul brings in Galatians chapter 1 because excuse me because he is bringing another gospel and and what was funny then so then
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James White reviewed it and James White pointed out that I was nervous and bouncing all over the place.
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And so that's that's my humble pie for the week Hopefully next time if I get an opportunity like that in the future to do something like that.
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I won't I'll be a little bit more organized But now
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I have so I one of the guys from the other podcast was saying that I have to incorporate this into our intro because now
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I have Hank Hanegraaff saying he's not interested in our podcast and I have James White saying that I'm nervous and bouncing all over the place.
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So but You don't need to have any shame in that. I mean Paul talked about stuttering and Moses didn't want to go to Pharaoh on his own because he wasn't very good at speaking
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Frankly, I know exactly the feeling you get you have all your thoughts in order And then as soon as they pick up the phone the adrenaline kicks in and then you you know
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Everything it's like the fog of war everything goes to pieces immediately. So there's no shame in it exactly the same thing
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I think everybody does when they call it to those shows. Well, I appreciate that. I I think it's I think it's funny
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I'm I'm laughing at myself You know, it's funny because I'm thinking
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He's not gonna he's not gonna be challenged in his show, you know and and he's familiar with with what
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I was asking and it was it was kind of naive for me to To think that I could actually engage him and you know, it is what it is, but we we do want to for now until we see repentance in in Hank Hanegraaff we do want to warn people away from him and and just From what
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I've heard he's not standing firm on the Word of God, even though he claims to be the Bible answer man
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But brother Tim, did you did you have any other thoughts on that? No, I thought that his his answer on prayers to the
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Saints Was weak I Thought that his is that his appeal to the early church
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Usually lands him someplace in the fourth century and later so he's he's consistently he's consistent with with Roman Catholic apologists and that he decides at some point that it's like he said that truth matters, but life matters more and What he is
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Basically affirmed as well without actually saying it is that the scriptures matter but tradition matters more
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And we have this great tradition of all these different practices from the early church and we need to incorporate them into our understanding of the scriptures and yet It's like we talked about last week.
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We've talked about before is that so many of the practices that are
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From the late 4th century and and beyond and his specific thing about prayer to the
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Saints or the Saints Asking the Saints to pray for us you know that was actually a
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Controversy of the late 4th century and there's some godly men that stood up and said we don't need to be praying to the Saints and they don't pray for us and And Hank Hanegraaff has basically adopted a late 4th century
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View that's based on tradition not on the scriptures so I would say that he calls himself
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Bible answer man, but he's he has succumbed to the arguments from tradition that are against the scriptures, and I think that But I think that's all we need to say about that So yeah,
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I'll just leave it at that you you wrapped it up nicely there Let me uh, let me just go ahead and remind everybody that we
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We we want to recommend Tim Kaufman's blog out of his mouth The URL is whitehorseblog .com
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where you can find all of his his writing on Eschatology Roman Catholicism history.
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He's an excellent historian. He does he does his homework? He's also a prolific writer on well.
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He's also he's a prolific writer there he's a prolific writer everywhere, but he's also a writer for the Trinity Foundation and Tim I know that we didn't talk about this beforehand, so But I just want to throw this out there and ask you
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Or is the Trinity Foundation doing anything this year in way of?
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Having a conference or anything like that. Have you heard anything? I I haven't looked it up yet So maybe you know
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I haven't seen anything scheduled yet I think they are going to do something, but I okay.
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I don't know more than that Okay, well We'll we'll try to keep our listeners updated because we do highly recommend the
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Trinity Foundation and all their material They are an excellent excellent resource. They're a polemic resource a lot of the stuff that they that comes out of the
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Trinity Foundation is polemical which Ruffles a lot of feathers so when you when you hear people speak negatively of the
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Trinity Foundation a lot of times It's it's precisely because John Robbins was
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Was very polemical he he stood firm on the Word of God and he contended earnestly for the faith and so I know
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Carlos and I Have just benefited tremendously from the
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Trinity Foundation. They're the ones who introduced us to Gordon Clark and and so We we definitely recommend them so Tim let's get into today's topic last week we talked about Mother Mary, and we're continuing our discussion in into this topic about Mother Mary and Oh, you know what
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Tim so I was talking with one of my aunts Who's a Roman Catholic because if you remember a while back?
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When I tried to answer the question as to whether or not Roman Catholics are saved and I answered it in the negative
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I created a kind of a controversy in my own family and one of my aunts is actually
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Wanting me to send her All the stuff that we do on Mary because she wants to hear about Where where we're coming from and our arguments for that, so I'm really looking forward to Today's episode in addition to last week's episode last week we went over just the the the basic history of Mary we referenced a bunch of scriptures and and then we talked about Mary as Queen Mother, and we talked about Mary as Theotokos and Today what what you were talking about before we went on was talking about Mary as the
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Ark of the New Covenant, so I as always Brother Tim is the expert in this
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Tim Kaufman is the expert in this and I'm just gonna basically take the role of student right now allow him to to lead us in our discussion, so Tim with that you want to take it away
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Well sure sure I'll take it wherever I can I hope it's to the right place But I certainly hope that your aunt enjoys this episode so We want we want her to hear the truth
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And so we're going to just simply tell her and tell all of our listeners why? We don't think anyone should fall for the arguments that Roman Catholics make about Mary and last episode as you mentioned we talked about Mary as Queen Mother and Mary as Theotokos and so I won't revisit any of that But we do encourage people if they're just picking up on this podcast to listen to the first one because this is part two and part two is going to be about Mary as the
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Ark of the New Covenant and the reason that we want to talk about Mary as the
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Ark of the New Covenant is because All the remaining Marian dogmas that is about her sinlessness her assumption
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Her perpetual virginity all those other doctrines flow from her identification as the
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Ark of the New Covenant and a lot of listeners and particularly
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Protestants would probably be surprised to find that Roman Catholics believe that Mary is the
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Ark of the New Covenant and that the Ark of the Old Covenant prefigured her
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But that is that is the argument they make and The I'll just start by saying that there's there's not a verse in the
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Old Testament that can't be made somehow to prefigure Mary and if you read about how
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The the early church and that is from and I mean Really the the late antique church
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So we're talking about late fourth century and we're getting into the medieval church in the fifth century sixth century but There there was a diverse in the
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Old Testament that couldn't somehow be made to prefigure Mary because the the cult of Mary just absolutely took off at the end of the fourth century and suddenly
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Everything in the Old Testament prefigured her. She was the land of Havilah in Genesis 2 11
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She is simultaneously Noah's Ark the dove that he released the olive branch that returned She's Aaron's rod blossoming from which the almonds of Jesus grew she's
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Jesse's rod from which the branch of Jesus sprung the reason is the the word for rod in Latin is
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Virgo which of course must refer to the Virgin and She was allegedly present when the
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Spirit blew upon the seas at creation for the the Latin word for sea is Maria Which of course must refer to Mary and she's the virgin soil from which
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Adam was made She is the cloud that led the Hebrews out of Egypt She is Gideon's fleece the temple the tabernacle the ark the golden urn containing the manna
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When David danced he danced for her when Moses saw the burning bush it prefigured her
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She was at the same time the flame the unconsumed wood of the bush She's even prefigured in the rotting manna and Jesus prefigured by the worms that fed on it
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I mean, that's that's how that's how crazy the cult of Mary got when people started
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Just everything Knew that had been prefigured in the old and of course the problem with seeing everything as a prefiguration of Mary is that if If everything prefigures her then no verse in Scripture has any other meaning than Mary And and we miss what the scripture is actually saying if we're looking always and constantly
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For some sort of figure that's hidden in the text and I think that I would recommend that we stick with the figures that the scriptures explicitly describe and Explain to us and then
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I think that we just lead ourselves down a dangerous path If we decide that every single verse refers to Mary but the one that I want to focus on the prefiguration that I want to focus on is the ark and the ark
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That there are several arguments that are made for Mary being prefigured by the ark of the Old Testament And I want to just I'll just cover four of them although there are more and we could make this a really really long episode if we cover them all but The first one is that Mary was overshadowed by the
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Holy Spirit and that's in Luke 135 and and they believe that the term overshadowed is a reference to the
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Old Testament when the The the Lord the glory of the Lord overshadowed the the tabernacle
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We'll talk about Mary's journey to visit Elizabeth and Luke 139 And we'll get into some of the details there.
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We'll talk about the contents of the ark that is the manna the tablets of the law and the rod of Aaron and we'll finally talk about the ark in Revelation chapter 11 and And immediately following there's a reference to the woman of Revelation 12 and the ark of Revelation 11 is in heaven and then a woman appears in heaven as well
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Roman Catholics see that as being evidence that if the woman of Revelation 12 is
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Mary Then the ark of Revelation 11 is a reference to her because it goes straight from the ark in heaven to the woman in heaven so so let's start with the
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Roman Catholic arguments from Scripture and And then when we're finished with that I want to look at the
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Roman Catholic arguments from the patristics and what we find is the earliest we can really find evidence for the patristics that the writers of the early church actually seeing
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Mary as Prefigured by the ark of the Old Covenant We don't see that until the late 4th century and beyond So, um, so yeah, yeah so Basically that they're looking for I guess in the similar way in which there's types and shadows of The Messiah and the
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Old Testament. Is that a way to understand that they're looking for types and shadows of Mary?
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Yes. Yes, that's exactly the way to look at it. And that's okay and they invest a tremendous amount of apologetic resource
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Resources on exactly that issue always looking to see if they can find evidence that That some type or shadow in the
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Old Testament prefigured Mary. Yeah, and so, you know how because we've talked about this before and I don't want to get sidetracked but You know how a lot of people have this this extreme
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Christ Christ centered Interpretation of the scripture where they just every every passage becomes every metaphor everything becomes about Christ He's read into everything.
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So they're imploring I guess a Mary centric hermeneutic where everything then becomes about Mary and And everything that I mean it just it in a lot of ways
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It just seems blasphemous because I was listening to the references about you know, the the the the cloud that led the
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Israelites out of Egypt and that's that's a that's not Mary that's God Yeah, it's not even a type or shadow it's just right just the manifestation of the presence of the
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Lord, you know, right so So yeah, that's it. I would say that yes, they would focus on a
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Mary centric hermeneutic and and we've talked before I think we had a discussion a while back about It was on our
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Keller Couple episodes episode 15. Yeah And we don't have to get into that.
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But let me ask you this. So is it is it still that bad? I mean are there still or so?
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I know that the the the stuff that we're covering now of Mary as Theotokos Mary as Queen Mother Mary as the new the
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Ark of the New Covenant Those are views that are still held by Roman Catholics But are there still
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Roman Catholics out there who or Who would argue for all the other stuff that you're that you're talking about or was that?
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You said that that was sort of a cult following. I guess that would be something that happened
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Early on in the church when when this stuff really took off Oh, well when
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I say the cult of Mary I'm using it in the formal sense of An order of following and in And let's see devotion to Mary just like you know
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Roman Catholics would not have any problem referring to the cult of relics as long as we understood that cult is just devotion
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Right the cult of Mary is a devotion to Mary. So I would
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I Would say that yes There are Roman Catholics who are still making these same
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Arguments based on the same references to the scriptures and the same references to the church fathers and in fact some of the crazy ones that I mentioned like See, you know when they collected they weren't supposed to collect manna on the
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Lord's Day Right anyway, so it rotted and then it got consumed by worms And yeah, they look at that say well
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Mary is the rotting manna and then the worm is Jesus inside her Those are actually written by men who were declared to be
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Saints By by later Popes and so and there's a public says, you know
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Here's a great book about the glories of Mary and you have these Saints who are basing their references on the church fathers
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And it's still being distributed to Roman Catholics today is it? Here's why we have this devotion to Mary and they'll say because of tradition and that's why you know
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Eventually Hank Hanegraaff is just gonna have to capitulate and become Roman Catholic because the whole stuff all that he's decided he wants to trace his religion back only to the fifth or sixth century and He's gonna have to find that there's something even before that which is in the late fourth century.
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That's Roman Catholicism, right? Eventually, that's where he has to settle if that's his if that's his epistemology
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Then tradition will ultimately lead him to Roman Catholicism. Yeah Well, I'm glad that you that you took the time to answer that the reason that I was asking that is because I often say you know that Catholics worship
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Mary or that Catholics call her the the co -mediator or the co -redemptrix and a lot of times you see this happen with With Mormons and as well you point something out that the religion teaches and that they hold to and then you'll have people
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Defend it by saying well, that's not what we believe. Well, that's not we don't believe that that's that's crazy.
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And so I'm glad that you that you answered that because I could hear it just in my head
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I could hear a bunch of people saying well, we don't believe that that Mary is the the the manna or that Mary is the cloud or all of those references but I Think well,
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I would say that there are Roman Catholics who believe that but I would say that the the
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Prefigurations and types aren't always mandated Right some of them some of them are explicitly called out and infallible proclamations by the
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Pope's but they you know some of them just reveal this inner devotion that someone went so far that they just Saw Mary and everything and they say see here's here's a type of devotion that we should model and imitate
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Someone that was so devoted to Mary that they saw Mary in the rotting manna Of course, it's not a doctrine that Mary's the rotting manna, but people still saw her that way and I saw that as a prefiguration
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That's the kind of devotion we should have to Mary. I mean to the degree that That people see that they see you should imitate the lives of the
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Saints and the Saints went overboard in their adoration of Mary No, and that then yes that they would proclaim and profess that but it's not mandatory
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That Roman Catholics believe that Mary was prefigured by the rotting manna But I would say that it's symptomatic of a bigger problem and that bigger problem is is the worship of Mary Right cover that later episode but you know when it comes to the the matter of tradition and People saying well, we don't believe that I'll just I'll just summarize it for you
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The I have on many times many occasions spoken with Roman Catholics And they're probably back few
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Roman Catholics the folks that get there late and then leave right after communion They're not really doctrinaire
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Roman Catholics and I'll say, you know, the problem I have with Roman Catholicism is that they believe that the
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Lord's Supper is actually sacrificed to God for our sins and They'll say something like oh, we don't believe that and then
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I'll show them from their own catechism that they do and then they say well So what's wrong with that and And it's interesting to hear them make that sudden change and I like to respond simply by saying well
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Well, you tell me because a minute ago you thought it was offensive and now you think it's okay
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And the reason they now think it's okay is because their epistemology is tradition Oh, well, if the church is teaching it then it must be right and therefore it's okay
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There was no further analysis than that. There was simply an immediate Offense at the suggestion that that's actually taught and Then utter capitulation upon the realization that the church actually teaches these things and it's because their epistemology is not scriptural but traditional
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So there and it's and that's why I say Hank Hanegraaff ultimately must become Roman Catholic because he'll find out that the rejection of Roman Catholicism by the
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East while it was based at something and some things that took place in the latter part of the fourth century didn't come to fruition until The 10th or 11th hmm and and they'll and eventually he'll find that there was something before The Eastern Orthodox schism from Roman Catholicism, and I think that he'll end up Roman Catholic Catholic someday
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But that's that's just the way people go. I mean Taylor Marshall went from a Presbyterian to to Anglican to Roman Catholic and I've heard of other folks going from To Anglican to Orthodox to Roman Catholic.
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It's just a waypoint. It's a stopping point on the ultimate road to Rome. So But um, but so it's you ready to talk about the ark then so Sorry, I muted my mic.
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Yeah. Oh, yeah Okay, and thanks for taking the time to answer the sidetrack.
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So what we'll do is Okay, so what we'll do is we'll just walk through some arguments
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The Roman Catholics make from the scriptures and we'll address them From the scriptures and just see where that leads us and as you know, whatever needs to carry over to the next episode
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We'll just let that carry over to the next episode So the first one is that Mary was overshadowed by the
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Holy Spirit in Luke 135 just like the ark was overshadowed in the Old Testament and so the citation from the
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Old Testament is that After Moses had completed building the tabernacle according to the specifications that the
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Lord had given him It says then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the
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Lord filled the tabernacle so That the problem here in Exodus 434 actually the problem isn't with Exodus 434
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The problem is with the Roman Catholic argument that it doesn't explicitly state that The Lord overshadowed the ark
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He overshadowed the tent and the tent was full of all sorts of things and this will be very interesting when we get to the patristic arguments later because some of the early church fathers would say that Mary was prefigured by The tabernacle because it contained the ark and Jesus wasn't the ark.
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Okay, so so it's The traditional are absolutely all over the map.
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And so Roman Catholic ultimately has to set aside all adherence to logic and consistency and just decide
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I Believe that this was a reference to Mary and therefore it's a rare reference to Mary But the exodus 434 was not even about the cloud overshadowing the ark.
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And yes, it's true that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary To bring about the incarnation
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But the fact that the Lord overshadowed the tent In exodus 434 isn't necessarily a prefiguration of him overshadowing
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Mary and especially since the it doesn't say in exodus 434 that he overshadowed the ark so I Think it's a stretch and But it's one that Roman Catholics used to show that Mary was the ark
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Now the next one is a little bit more complicated. And this one is from this is
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Mary's journey to visit Elizabeth and The argument is made That David had gone to the hill country of Judah to retrieve the ark and If you remember the story from 2nd
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Samuel it stayed at the house of Obed -Edom the Gittite for three months and the reason was because Uzzah had touched the ark to steady it because it was being carried on an ox cart and as it was struck dead and and David was very nervous about taking the ark any further and said how should the ark of the
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Lord come to me? And so it stayed at the house of Obed -Edom for three months so Roman Catholics say wow
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David the ark of the Lord went to The hill country of Judah and stayed there for three months and guess what?
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After Mary found out that Elizabeth was pregnant. She went to go visit her in the hill country of Judah for about three months
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That's in Luke 156. So so there's the that's the first typology
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Is it while the ark stayed in the hill country of Judah for three months and Mary went to visit Elizabeth? For about three months and I'll just first say but that three months and about three months are not the same thing
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So, you know if the Spirit was trying to really show us something not only would Mary be explicitly called the ark of the
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New Covenant, but Three months would be a prefiguration of three months But that's but in in 2nd
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Samuel 6 it stays on the hill country of Judah for three months in Mary stays in the hill country of Judah to visit
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Elizabeth for about three months Now the reason that I want to just make an argument from absurdity for just a second just to show
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How ridiculous the arguments are that oh this must prove that Mary is the ark
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Because the ark of the the ark was also in the country of the Philistines for seven months and that's in 1st
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Samuel chapter 6 Verse 1 and it stated kirjah jiram for 20 years.
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That's 1st Samuel 7 2 And if we want to take the same approach to the ark that the Roman Catholics are doing we should say well
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What does this signify? What is the seven months mean? What is the 20 years mean? Well, let's see.
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It says in Luke 1 24 that when Elizabeth found out she was pregnant She stayed she hid herself for five months and then in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy
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Mary found out about Elizabeth's pregnancy and she had to travel about a hundred miles to go visit her cousin and So that would get her there in about the seventh month.
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And so therefore Maybe Elizabeth is the Ark of the Covenant Because it was seven months that she hid herself for five months and it wasn't until seven months were continued complete before That Mary actually got to her
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And also Levitical priests they don't actually begin their work in the sanctuary until they're 20 years old
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That's what it says in 1st Chronicles 2324 2nd Chronicles 31 17. So wow, maybe maybe the 20 years that the ark was in Kirjah's jiram
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Prefigured the 20 years that John the Baptist had to wait Before he became a priest because you don't become a priest until you're 20 years old and that would make
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John the Baptist the ark Or maybe it would make Elizabeth the ark and John the
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Baptist is a priest that's inside her and because the Aaron the Rod of Aaron signifies the
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Aaronic priesthood and John the Baptist was an Aaronic priest Therefore Elizabeth must be the Ark of the
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New Covenant. Well, that's an absolutely silly argument It's a ridiculous argument and I want to put it in the same category as the argument
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Roman Catholics make that Mary is the Ark Based on this scripture passage, but but it gets better.
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It's uh, you know when when David When David I would say
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I don't see that argument gets better. It gets sillier and therefore better because it's more interesting to us, but When David realized that as I had been struck dead for touching the ark
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He said how shall the Ark of the Lord come to me? That's 2nd Samuel 6 9 and when
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Mary arrived to visit Elizabeth Elizabeth said and whence is this to me that the mother of my
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Lord should come to me. It's Luke 1 43 So Roman Catholics look at that and say Wow David said how shall the
35:02
Ark of the Lord come to me and Elizabeth's has how shall the mother of my Lord come to me and therefore
35:07
Mary's the Ark see that's uh But the problem is that David was refusing the
35:14
Ark and Elizabeth was welcoming Mary and I'll just say that David's refusal for the
35:20
Ark to come to him is not a prefiguration or foreshadowing of Elizabeth welcoming Mary and what's important here?
35:27
Is that they would tie that to John the Baptist leaping in Elizabeth's womb when
35:32
Mary arrived? but but but you see how they they're stretching everything they can find to make it turn into a
35:39
Prefiguration of Mary and the next way they do that is to examine the contents of the
35:44
Ark but before I go on with that or you understand the problems with Mary's visit to Elizabeth somehow being fulfilled or somehow being the fulfillment of Of the
35:56
Ark moving around Israel the land of the Philistines. Oh yeah, it's uh the
36:03
They're like conspiracy theorists Reaching for straws or grabbing grabbing at straws to make this work.
36:10
And I think you you pointed out that I Like how you
36:18
You reduced it to absurdity Because there's no way that this could work And and it shouldn't be accepted at all the only way you can get to these passages and conclude that Mary's the
36:31
Ark is if you already believe she was the Ark and That means that there's no reason to appeal to the scriptures at all because you already know that she's the
36:37
Ark, right? But like I said, you know We could make John the Ark if we wanted to make Elizabeth the
36:42
Ark if we wanted to and it almost sounded like Yeah, it almost sounded like John might actually fit better as the
36:49
Ark, you know. Yeah. Yeah, that's right so so now the next argument that's made is
36:55
Based on the contents of the Ark itself. So Roman Catholics note that the Ark of the
37:00
Covenant contained the tablets of the law That's in Deuteronomy 31 verses 19 to 27
37:06
It contained the manna which is the bread from heaven That's Exodus 16 12 to 34 and it contains the rod of Aaron Blossoming and that's number 17 10 and all of these are alleged by Roman Catholics to signify
37:20
Christ and since they were in the Ark and in Mary Mary must be the
37:25
Ark because if Jesus is the rod of Aaron blossoming and the bread from heaven and the incarnation of the law and the
37:32
Word of God then All those three things were inside Mary and therefore Mary Must be the
37:38
Ark. Well, the problem is they don't all signify Christ I will grant that the manna does because Christ says so in John 6 32 he identifies himself as the bread from heaven the law certainly signifies
37:50
Christ because Jesus came as the incarnation of God the The logos and that's in John 1 14
37:59
The problem is that the rod of Aaron signifies a genetic lineage That's number 17 and 18 and that genetic lineage explicitly excludes
38:08
Christ in its signification the reason this matters is that if you remember there were some people that were upset that the
38:15
The Aaron and his sons got to minister as priests So they argued with Moses and the way it was settled that each tribe brought forth a staff and the staff
38:26
That was brought forth that blossomed would indicate which tribe which family the
38:32
Lord had selected for ministering before him and Aaron's rod blossomed and This the and when it blossomed it was shown and it says this explicitly in number 17 and 18
38:48
That only Aaron and his sons can minister before him. Okay, so the rod of Aaron signifies a genetic lineage
38:56
That is fulfilled in genetic descendants of Aaron But when we get to the
39:02
New Testament, we're told explicitly that Jesus is not from that tribe
39:07
And this is from Hebrews 7 verses 11 to 13 It says if therefore perfection were by the
39:13
Levitical priesthood For under it the people received the law What further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek and not be called after the order of Aaron?
39:24
For the priesthood being changed there is made of necessity a change also of the law
39:30
For he of whom these things are spoken pertains to another tribe of which no man gave attendance at the altar
39:38
So so here we have a verse in Scripture Explicitly stating that Jesus is not of the line of Aaron and we have passages of Scripture number 17 and 18
39:48
That show that the rod of Aaron explicitly signifies a genetic lineage of which
39:53
Jesus has no part And that shows that there's there's one place
39:59
Because Mary is the sole source of Jesus genetic lineage his genetic tie to David The only
40:09
There's only one place in the world Where the rod of Aaron should never be and that should be that's inside Mary Mary could not have been of the line of Aaron Otherwise this whole thing falls apart
40:23
The whole the whole point of Hebrews 11 Hebrews 7 verses 11 13 falls apart
40:29
The whole point of the the rod blossoming falls apart. The the rod blossoming is not a prefiguration of Christ.
40:37
No There is a shoot that sprouts from the stump of Jesse and that's fulfilled in Christ, but that's not the rod of Aaron And when we get to the
40:46
New Testament, we say that Jesus is not of the liturgical Levitical line and therefore he's not
40:52
Out of Aaron because the rod of Aaron was intended to signify a genetic lineage and Jesus has absolutely no part of that so There's a much better explanation.
41:03
I want to just Provide this to our listeners to take a look at what's very interesting. Is it when there was the rebellion?
41:11
And there people were offering They were using censors to make offering to the
41:17
Lord and and the Lord punished them and took the 250 censors and hammered them into plates as a covering for the altar and It was it was created as a memorial to the children of Israel against their murmurings.
41:31
That's number 16 verses 38 to 40 The tables of the law were laid up in the ark for a witness against thee
41:37
To testify against thy rebellion and thy stiff neck and that's that's taken from Deuteronomy 31 verses 19 to 27
41:44
The golden urn of manna was placed in the ark After God heard the murmurings of the children of Israel That's Exodus 16 12 to 34 the rod of Aaron blossoming was placed in the ark to be kept for a token against the rebels and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from thee
42:02
Number 17 10. So what do you notice is a pattern here? When the basically the contents of the ark become a record of the sins of God's people against him
42:12
When they're complaining against him when they complain against him They get a they get another piece of something goes in the ark as a memorial against their sin their wickedness their murmurings and their rebellion and So what happens later in?
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Jeremiah 3 16 to 17 is that here the ark eventually? Becomes Decreases in significance so much that people don't even talk about it anymore because it's really the contents become a record of our offenses and so the fact that the ark is removed is
42:48
You could take that as a sign that you know, Jesus removed all of our sins God took away the thing
42:54
That offended him about us So that there would be peace between us and God and what's very interesting in Jeremiah 3 16 and 17
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As he said I'm going to send you pastors after my own heart and They're not going to talk about the ark anymore.
43:09
It's very interesting He says and this is again Jeremiah 3 16 and 17 and I will give you pastors according to mine heart
43:16
Which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding and it shall come to pass When ye be multiplied and increased in the land in those days saith the
43:25
Lord they shall no more Say the ark of the covenant of the Lord neither shall it come to mind
43:31
Neither shall they remember it. Neither shall they visit it neither Let's see.
43:37
Neither shall that be done anymore at that time They shall be they should call Jerusalem the throne of the
43:42
Lord and all the nation shall be gathered into it to name To the name of the Lord to Jerusalem.
43:48
Neither shall they walk anymore after the imagination of their evil heart. So here the Lord is identifying the ark with the evil imagination of God's people and he's saying that you know
44:00
There's gonna come a time when I send you pastors that don't talk about it anymore doesn't even come to mind They don't visit it.
44:06
They don't even remember it and he's actually talking about a time when the ark is forgotten as Being a very positive time
44:14
When things are better and yet you compare this with what you find in Roman Catholicism What when they proclaimed the doctrine of Mary's Sinlessness, they appeal to the ark when they proclaim
44:28
Mary's Assumption bodily body and soul into heaven they appeal to the imagery of the ark when they talk about devotion to Mary and David leaping before the ark and John the
44:39
Baptist leaping before the ark and All these different things about the ark of Mary guess what that they're basically not feeding the flock with knowledge and understanding
44:49
They're feeding them with superstition and and conjecture and in fact contradiction and this is not
44:55
What the Lord had in mind when he says to Jeremiah, there's gonna come a time when
45:01
I send pastors according to my own heart That the the priests and bishops and Cardinals and Popes were talking about Mary as the ark and how important it is to honor her as the ark of the
45:12
New Covenant are not consistent with Jeremiah 3 16 and 17, which says that the the pastors that God sends to us will not be so obsessed with the ark and And that they would actually withhold knowledge and understanding from the people and I would say that the devotion the ark has done exactly that It's withheld knowledge and understanding you can see from the different arguments that are made by Roman Catholics that They're just absolutely caught up in it
45:40
And there's there's just nothing in the Old Testament that can't be stretched to turn it into a prefiguration of Mary and the ark so well, but the last one
45:49
I wanted to Go to is Revelation 11 19 to 12 1 and as I mentioned earlier in the show that Mary Say the ark is shown in heaven in Revelation 11 19 and then the next verse
46:07
In Revelation 12 1 there's a reference to a woman appearing in the heavens and again, that's taken is the close connection between the ark and the woman in the heavens is
46:22
Indication of wealth Mary is the woman then John had actually seen Mary and called her the ark and then he described the woman which is
46:30
Mary The problem here is that Roman Catholics and we'll get into this when we talk about Mary's sinlessness
46:37
But Roman Catholics denied that Mary had labor pains When she delivered
46:43
Christ and the woman of Revelation 12 is delivering the
46:48
Christ child and She's in labor and she's in great pain from labor. And so they they have their interesting arguments about that, but again the imagery falls apart because If Roman Catholics are right that because Mary's the ark, therefore, she's sinless and therefore she didn't have labor pains when she delivered
47:06
Christ Then why is the woman of Revelation 12 in labor?
47:13
Delivering Christ, you know the whole thing It just it falls apart there because they're just stretching so hard to find any any figuration at all
47:22
In the Old Testament or New Testament to show that Mary is the ark and what I often find although they don't do this all the time but often find
47:29
When Roman Catholics are reading this passage And they want to assign it to Mary they'll stop reading
47:37
Just before it says that she was laboring in pain in childbirth because it just doesn't fit with their
47:44
It just doesn't sit fit with their epistemology. She she's not supposed to be in labor and therefore It's just a conundrum a paradox.
47:52
You could say in Revelation 12 one Identifies this woman and in Revelation 12 to she's having labor pains, but so that that covers
48:01
I would say that Although there are a lot more arguments that could be made about Mary being the ark
48:06
Those those are the main ones that Roman Catholics teach and they all There's nothing consistent about them and they're all stretches and you have to have concluded already that Mary was the ark in order to Get this out of scriptures and the problem is that nobody
48:22
Thought of this until after the fourth century and that shows that this identification of Mary as the ark is not epistolic
48:28
It's a late -breaking tradition Well, yeah, and that's really interesting.
48:34
I know that we've talked a little bit about the that that passage in Revelation because that's come up in Discussions with my family, but I don't know.
48:45
I think I think if we talk about that right now it's probably gonna lead us down a rabbit trail and that has a lot to do with with the apparitions of Mother Mary and So maybe
48:54
I'll just ask you that for for another another time But let's just let's just go ahead and continue with what with what you're talking about right now okay, so we're
49:06
We're continuing now with our discussion on the ark, but we're gonna switch to the
49:13
Roman Catholic Attempts to find Mary as the ark of the New Covenant in the early church.
49:20
So I think my favorite Occurrence of this is when
49:26
Scott Hahn who's a former Presbyterian was attempting to show that Mary was the ark and that the church has always believed and taught this and this was from his he had a
49:42
Sermon or a speech on a closer. Look at Christ Church Mary ark of the
49:48
Covenant and He this section was called answering common objections, so he was talking about How Mary is the ark of the
49:59
New Covenant and an audience member? I Doubt I don't doubt that the audience member was a devout
50:05
Roman Catholic, but this particular person asked a very penetrating question and The question was this where do we find specific examples of Mary as the ark of the
50:16
Covenant in the early church? so Han Responded by He had picked up a book that he really liked and we'll get to that in just a second
50:26
But he responded and said well the the ark of imperishable wood containing the manna
50:33
Is a phrase that is taken from an ancient liturgy for the Feast of the Assumption This application of the ark of the
50:40
Covenant to the Blessed Virgin is very ancient We find that already at the beginning of the 3rd century in the writings of Hippolytus of Rome so let me first say that the ancient liturgy for the
50:51
Feast of the Assumption can date no earlier than the 5th century because The the Assumption wasn't even entertained before then but the problem is that Hippolytus and Han has him at the correct time frame in the 3rd century
51:05
But Hippolytus has some very explicit language about Jesus being the ark not Mary when we talk about the ark of imperishable wood, so Here we have
51:18
Hippolytus From fragments on the Psalms his oration on the Lord as my shepherd
51:23
He says moreover the ark made of imperishable wood was the Savior himself For this for by this was signified the imperishable and incorruptible tabernacle of the
51:33
Lord himself Which is which gendered no corruption of sin For the sinner indeed makes this confession my wounds stank and were corrupt because of my foolishness
51:43
But the Lord was without sin made of imperishable wood as regards as humanity And it is of the
51:48
Virgin and the Holy Ghost inwardly and outwardly of the Word of God Like an ark overlaid with purest gold
51:54
So here he says That the ark was the Savior himself and then again in Fragments on the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar chapter 6
52:06
He says in the in that the Savior appeared in the world bearing the imperishable ark his own body. So twice we have
52:12
Hippolytus saying that the ark of imperishable wood is Jesus Jesus body. He's bearing the ark
52:17
That's very interesting because it what he doesn't say is that you know, Mary Here we have him saying well
52:24
Jesus was sinless and therefore he's the ark of imperishable wood That's the argument Roman Catholics make after the fourth century that Mary was sinless and therefore she must be the ark of imperishable wood but the truth is that Scott Hahn got that wrong when he said
52:40
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course why why we have the ancient liturgy of the Feast of the Assumption which Didn't exist before the 5th century and Then we have
52:49
Hippolytus and then he actually gets Hippolytus wrong because Hippolytus said that Jesus and Jesus body was the ark
52:55
But Han went on with another example for the 5th century He said we find it that is the idea of Mary as the ark in Antioch by the 5th century in the writing of the patriarch
53:05
Severus who fits it into its entire context He sees the Blessed Virgin signified by the
53:10
Holy of Holies precisely because she contains the Ark of the Covenant Made of incorruptible wood well, that's that's
53:19
That's a bit of a stretch and I could see that Scott Hahn was in a tight spot here he kind of had to make it up as he goes along because If the patriarch
53:26
Severus fits it into his context and he sees Mary as the Holy of Holies Because she contains the ark
53:35
That makes Jesus the ark not Mary and so Han is basically trying to make this point that well, yeah eventually we got around to it and we built up to it by men like Hippolytus saying that Jesus was the ark and Severus saying that Mary is the
53:50
Holy of Holies because she contains the ark. Well, you know, honestly, it's a bunch of nonsense It's got Han knows better than this
53:56
It's just that you never get to this unless you already wanted to believe it to begin with and when Scott Hahn decided he needed
54:02
Become Roman Catholic He decided he had to buy into everything that Rome was selling and Rome sells this
54:08
Han bought it and now he has to defend It's not an enviable position to be in. So I want to bring up another
54:15
Roman Catholic apologist Steve Ray and he's he claims the same thing. He says Mary as the ark was taught and celebrated early in Christian history
54:26
Yeah, and I want to I want to point this out notice what Han and Ray are both doing here They're saying listen, you gotta trust us on this
54:34
It's it's been 2 ,000 years now Since Jesus was on the earth and he established a church the church currently teaches this stuff and Therefore it must be apostolic because the church can't teach things that aren't apostolic
54:48
And you're just gonna have to take it from us that this goes all the way back early in Christian history. So And people can look this up.
54:57
I encourage them to look up Ark of the New Covenant quotes from the Fathers It's something it's just a word document that Steve Ray has put out there with all these different quotes
55:06
Showing that the from the earliest time of Christian history They believe that Mary was the ark.
55:12
The problem is that he has cited no reliable references Prior to the latter part of the 4th century and what's more and this is what gets really interesting
55:21
I want to just give people a taste of what the early church really thought the ark signified.
55:28
So Let's look at Irenaeus. He died in 202 AD So two centuries after Christ and Actually, oh just just a couple hundred years after Christ and He says the the ark was gilded within and without with pure gold
55:49
So was also the body of Christ pure and resplendent In order that from both materials the splendor of the natures might be clearly shown forth.
55:57
That's Irenaeus is eighth fragment Tertullian He lived from 155 to 240
56:05
AD and he believed that the ark Signified Christ's body or his people.
56:10
He says the ark beneath a type points us to Christ's Venerable body joined through wood with sacred spirit.
56:19
That's his His is it's from Tertullian of Martians antithesis chapters 209 to 210
56:29
Elsewhere Tertullian mentions that the ark of the Testament along with the tabernacle altar and candlestick were figures of us
56:35
For where temples of God and altars and lights and sacred vessels that's from Tertullian de
56:40
Corona chapter 9 So we've already covered Hippolytus of Rome. He was from 170 to 235
56:47
AD and I mentioned that he said that the ark signified Christ's body
56:54
Victorinus from 270 to 310 AD He believed that the ark signified Christ's ministry
57:00
He says and there was seen in his temple the ark of the Lord's Testament The preaching of the gospel and the forgiveness of sins and all the gifts whatever that came with him he says appeared therein now, that's actually
57:13
Victorinus commenting on the 11th chapter of Revelation and He doesn't see the ark there in chapter 11 as being a prefiguration of Mary But of Christ's ministry the preaching of the gospel the forgiveness of sins
57:25
And all the gifts whatever that came with him Gregory Nazianzen 329 to 390
57:31
AD He believed that the ark signified Christ This is from Gregory Nazianzen oration 38 on the
57:38
Theophany paragraph 17 now Then I pray you accept his conception and leap before him if not like John from the womb yet like David because of the resting of the ark he thought that we should leap before the
57:51
Lord as David left before the ark and as John leapt in the presence of Jesus He doesn't say that Mary is the ark there
58:01
Ambrose from 340 to 397 AD. He thought that the ark signified Christ. He says But the dancing is commended which
58:09
David practiced before the ark of God for everything is seemingly which is done for religion
58:14
So that we need be ashamed of no service which tends to the worship and honoring of Christ That's Ambrose on repentance book 2 chapter 42
58:24
John Chrysostom 349 to 407 AD thought the ark signified Christ This temple is holier than that for it glistened not with gold and silver but with the grace of the spirit and in place of the ark and the cherubim it had
58:38
Christ and his father and the paraclete seated within That's Chrysostom two exhortations to Theodore after his fall
58:45
Letter one paragraph one and he sees the ark as a signification of Christ Jerome 347 to 420
58:53
AD He saw the ark to signify the church a consecrated virgin or the bishop or Christ too.
59:00
These are I'll just give the references here and it's letter 22 to Eustochium paragraphs 23 to 24
59:09
Letter 147 to Sabinianus paragraph 10 Letter 46 to Paula and Eustochium.
59:16
Oh, I'm sorry Paula and Eustochium to Marcella paragraph 5 and then each one of these he he talks about what the ark signifies and and I'll just just for example, he said assuredly no gold or silver
59:31
Silver vessel was ever so dear to God as the temple of a virgin's body Like the ark of the
59:36
Covenant Christ's bow should be overlaid with gold and without She should be the guardian of the law of the Lord just as the ark contained nothing but the tables of the
59:44
Covenant So in you there should be no thought of anything that is outside He's basically telling people that hey, you should be the ark of the
59:51
Covenant. Just like it was pure and holy and then He says if the
59:56
Levite Uzzah was smitten merely because he tried to hold up from falling the ark Which it was his special purpose to carry what punishment?
01:00:05
Thank you will be inflicted upon you who have tried to overthrow the Lord's Ark when standing firm
01:00:10
The more estimable the bishop is who ordained you the more detestable Are you who have disappointed the expectations of so good a man?
01:00:17
So the the bishop is the prefiguration of the ark here and the Savannia Sabinianus was wrong to touch him or or upset him.
01:00:26
So we'll go on to John Cassian from 360 to 435 AD He believed that the ark signified the
01:00:34
Christian He says next you must by all means strive to get rid of all anxiety and worldly thoughts and give yourself over assiduously or rather continuously
01:00:45
To sacred reading until continual meditation fills your heart and fashions you so to speak after its own likeness
01:00:53
Making of it in a way an ark of the testimony Which has within it two tables of stone i .e.
01:00:59
the constant assurance of the two testaments, etc So he goes on he basically describing you as a
01:01:06
Christian should have within you all the contents of the ark Theodoret of Cyrus This is 393 to 458
01:01:14
AD He believed that the ark signified the Lord's body And he's actually quoting
01:01:19
Hippolytus to prove and he says the testimony of the Holy Hippolytus Bishop and martyr from his discourse on the
01:01:24
Lord is my shepherd there are an ark of incomparable incorruptible wood was the Savior himself
01:01:31
Cyril of Alexandria thought that the ark signified Christ. This is 412 to 444 AD The ark then palace
01:01:39
I feel is the image and symbol of Christ. That's from Cyril of Alexandria on the adoration in the
01:01:46
Spirit and truth book 9 and He says Emmanuel God with us is presented in figure and image when scripture says and you will place the ark of the testimony in the tabernacle
01:01:59
That's on John the Evangelist book 4 Gregory the Great 540 to 604
01:02:05
AD He thought that the ministry that the ark was the teaching ministry of Christ. He says gentleness
01:02:11
Mingled with severity is well signified by that ark of the tabernacle in which together with the tables.
01:02:17
There is a rod and manna Because if with knowledge of sacred scripture in the good rulers breast there is the rod of constraint
01:02:24
There should also be the manna of sweetness. So he thought that that was the teaching ministry of Christ should actually
01:02:31
Cause the ruler to be a good ruler So he says but what what but the
01:02:38
Holy Church is figured by the ark and that's a Gregory the Great pastoral rule book 2 chapter 11
01:02:45
The previous one was book 2 chapter 6 For what is the priestly heart but the ark of the covenant and since spiritual doctrine attains its vigor there in without doubt the tables
01:02:56
Of law are lying in it. That's Gregory the Great Register of letters book 8 letter 30.
01:03:01
So what do we have here? We've gone all the way through to the beginning of the 7th century and we still have
01:03:08
People like Gregory the Great a Pope Telling us, you know, the ark signifies the teaching ministry of Christ We have
01:03:16
Cyril of Alexandria Theodore hood of Cyrus John Cassian we have Jerome John Chrysostom Ambrose Gregory Nazianzen Victorinus Hippolytus and Tertullian and Erin A .S.
01:03:29
And they all see the ark is Christ's body The teaching ministry of Christ has meant his ministry the the pastor the ruler the consecrated virgin the bishop the
01:03:41
Christ to The tomb of Christ, I mean these are all the ways that they thought that the ark signified
01:03:49
Something and and like we said we don't want to say we don't want to sign a meaning to it unless the scripture
01:03:55
Explicitly signs a meaning to it. So I'm not going to take any of their positions and say well It's definitely signified Christ or his teaching ministry
01:04:01
The problem here is there's a very consistent thread that it isn't Mary and yet Roman Catholics like Scott Hahn and Steve Ray say
01:04:09
Oh, yes Yes, it's a it's it's an extremely ancient teaching and in fact we can find evidence
01:04:16
That's it's practically apostolic in that it goes back quite a ways
01:04:22
Very very early on in the church that maybe maybe fifth or sixth century
01:04:28
We we have some pretty good evidence that it's apostolic that it's yes that it's that this goes all the way back
01:04:34
But that's that's how they have to reason because they've already bought into the fact that Mary's the ark
01:04:40
And all that's left is trying to convince themselves and that they're here is that it's apostolic and they have to stretch it to the breaking
01:04:47
Point in order to find evidence and where they do find evidence from people before the under latter part of the 4th century
01:04:54
It's in documents that are disputed just like we talked about last week papyrus 470
01:04:59
Its date is is disputed and so we don't have proof of Theotokos being used in the 2nd and 3rd century
01:05:04
We don't have a reliable evidence of Mary being considered the ark of the New Covenant until latter part of the 4th century and later and it's just one more piece of evidence that the doctrines that Roman Catholics are trying to say are apostolic are
01:05:20
In fact novelties of the latter part of the 4th century and beyond and the Christian is under no obligation to accept this
01:05:25
Like I said last week the Christian does not have to take the Marian doctrines lying down There are arguments against them the arguments that Roman Catholics make for them are just And at their worst, they're absolutely ridiculous and offensive and at their best
01:05:40
They're just grasping at scriptural references and trying to turn them into prefigurations of Mary But the problem as you can see is that where we have documents that are known to be from these writers
01:05:54
They say that Jesus is the ark His teaching ministry is the ark the church is the ark the people are the ark the consecrated virgin is the ark and but at this point we're talking about Jerome saying the consecrated version is the ark and he wasn't referring to Mary and the
01:06:11
That is a someone who has consecrated themselves to be a virgin and not get married he says that's the kind of person that is prefigured by the ark and And and you don't really get this identification of Mary as being the ark until the latter part of the fourth century and beyond and And that's the problem with so many doctrines that we find with Roman Catholicism.
01:06:32
They'll say These are apostolic. These are what the early church taught. We really got to go with that You know
01:06:38
Protestants need to repent of their novelty and come back to the early church That's the argument Hank Hanegraaff fell for and it's because Hank Hanegraaff wanted to believe this he wanted to believe the traditions
01:06:49
He wanted to believe the nonsense. And so he finally comes up with that saying that he had on his The the epiphany he had that Wow truth matters, but life matters more.
01:06:58
Well life has to be refined defined by truth and You can't say that if someone believes something false, but at least they're alive.
01:07:07
I'll go with that That's that's basically to set aside God's revelation to us in the scriptures and follow after man -made traditions in this whole thing
01:07:15
With Mary being the ark is just a man -made tradition and you just can't find it for the latter part of the fourth century
01:07:22
And some would even say you can't find it really before the fifth century and the same thing goes with the Assumption Doctrine Which we'll cover in our next episode
01:07:29
Wow, that and that's good. That is really good. I Wish You know
01:07:37
Hank Hanegraaff would take a closer look at these things. And fortunately, I think that he's done what you said
01:07:43
You know Scott Hahn did and Steve Ray that he's already committed himself to a position that now he's he's probably not going to take a closer look at these things and You know
01:07:59
I'm just I'm so grateful that that you're that you're willing to come on to our show and and lay this all out
01:08:07
I Honestly don't see how a Roman Catholic could argue their way out of this unless they just have a total commitment to What the the
01:08:20
Roman Catholic Church is currently teaching? And and as you pointed out they can't get past the fourth century
01:08:29
In referencing what the early church fathers Believed and it's
01:08:34
I think it's really significant to to point out to our listeners that what we believe is substantiated first by the scriptures and We are believing what the early church fathers believed in So, I mean we're in good company here.
01:08:52
But uh, so That will that'll be it for today brother
01:08:57
Tim, I want to say again, thank you for coming on and And laying this out for our listeners.
01:09:04
Oh I'm I'm very happy to be here and glad to do it and I look forward to our next episode and It's just a privilege to be with you and a privilege to talk with our listeners.
01:09:15
Well, so real quick what what can we look forward to in our next episode because you said that That Mary is the
01:09:25
Ark of the Covenant That that has a lot to do with building all these other views about Mary and her sinlessness and and basically
01:09:37
This I don't know if you'd say laying the foundation for what the what the church Holds with regards to the doctrines of Mary, but what can we expect in the next episode?
01:09:51
Concerning Mary Well the as I mentioned that the the
01:09:57
Ark is extremely important because it's by the Ark that the other doctrines are established So when we talk about the sinlessness of Mary They believe that Mary was sinless in the same way that Hippolytus was arguing that the
01:10:11
Ark must prefigure Christ and his sinlessness they take that rationale and say that well if it prefigured
01:10:18
Mary instead of Christ, then Mary must be sinless and Then there are passages in the
01:10:25
Old Testament that Say arise O Lord to thy resting place thou and the
01:10:32
Ark of thy strength And so if that references Christ and his assumption into heaven his ascension into heaven then if Jesus is followed by the
01:10:43
Ark of his strength and the Ark of his strength is Mary then Mary must necessarily have been assumed into heaven
01:10:49
And if if Uzzah couldn't touch the Ark and There were there's a place in the scripture where thousands of men are killed for looking into the
01:10:57
Ark These are all they're all prefigurations of Mary's virginity and therefore
01:11:02
Mary must be a perpetual virgin because she's the Ark so the sinlessness the perpetual virginity the assumption of Mary they all flow from Mary's identification of the
01:11:13
Ark and And That's why it's so important to start with the Ark a lot of times
01:11:19
I talked with Protestants that aren't aware that Mary is seen as the fulfillment of the typology the
01:11:24
Ark and And that's why they don't understand how Roman Catholics can conclude that Mary is sinless
01:11:30
Perpetual virgin and was assumed body and soul into heaven and yet in the two infallible pronouncements that we have from the
01:11:36
Popes The Ark typology was invoked for both of them one for her sinlessness and one for the assumption so that's what we'll cover in our next episode the her sinlessness the perpetual virginity of Mary and The assumption of Mary into heaven.
01:11:53
Wow. I am I am so looking forward to that. This is You're taking it to a whole nother level
01:12:03
Because Most Christians know how to defend against Roman Catholicism, you know citing a you know
01:12:13
You know was was Mary sinless No, because you know in Romans it says for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God But you were you were knocking it out of the park.
01:12:25
Yeah, I'm looking at your notes and you're just You're demolishing the Roman Catholic position, which which
01:12:33
I love because it's not it's not a position of truth and Our heart in in in doing this is not to bash anybody it's to present people with truth and the hope that they'll come to Christ and the hope that they will that they will repent and and Be justified by faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone.
01:12:57
And so that's that's our heart I know that that's that's your heart Tim. Yeah, I know that we both have family members that are
01:13:04
Catholic. I'm sure we have friends I'm sure you have friends that are Catholic I know that I have a lot of friends that are
01:13:10
Catholic but but that is that is definitely our desire in doing this and man,
01:13:16
I am just I am so excited about this because You're you're really knocking it out of the park well,
01:13:25
I appreciate that, you know my I know we both have the same heart on this is that I hear so many times of guys that That I've been in Bible studies with that eventually convert to Roman Catholicism and they fall for the arguments and they come back making arguments for the typologies that we discussed today and and and they're just blown away by it because it's so ancient and it's like, you know,
01:13:50
I read an article in them in a magazine once about how the church needs to get back to the early practices like incense and Icons and that sort of thing
01:14:01
But you know what the incense there's no evidence of it being used in the church until after the 4th century The icons were rejected all the way up to the latter part of the 4th century
01:14:09
So that all these claims that we need to get back to the early church are really Claims that we really need to get back to the late 4th century 300 years removed from the apostolic era
01:14:19
And that's where we're gonna find the truth Well when you look at it that way you realize you're trying to get me to subscribe to a novelty and that's why
01:14:27
I said in our series on the sacrifice of the mass is that I Can't leave the apostolic religion to join you in your novelties
01:14:34
And therefore I reject all this nonsense about Mary is the Ark Mary is the Queen of Heaven Mary is the mother of God the day genetrix and that sort of thing
01:14:42
So we'll pick up on that on our next episode and I appreciate our listeners hanging in for this long
01:14:48
Yeah, definitely and just real quick I want to remind our listeners to also check out the track planet calm
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I know a lot of churches are gonna be doing vacation Bible school So you can check out the the tracks that the that there are new sponsor that are sponsoring the
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