The Laborers' Podcast- Prayer part 2

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The Laborers' Podcast- The Holy Spirit part 3

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Welcome to the laborers podcast prayer part two, please stay tuned

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Welcome everyone to the laborers podcast We're so thankful that you decided to listen or watch or however, you've joined with us.

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We appreciate your support We appreciate your prayers. We're so thankful for you We want to partner with you our desire is to glorify

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God and reach our community With God's Word with the truth of God's Word for Jesus with the gospel

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So that people are saved so that people are transformed are born again, and they begin to And that just begins to overflow into their lives and their family and their community and in our nation's

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So we're thankful that you join us for that tonight. We are going to continue from last week

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I'm so thankful to be back We're going to continue our conversation on prayer welcome,

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I'm Rob and I'm glad to be here tonight. We have with us He's given himself a new name

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Covenanted Dan he is with us tonight. He's with me in the truth and love podcast

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We got big John with us real talk with big John podcast. Go check him out. We've got sandy with us

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He's with God -centered theology. Check him out the happy cabinet clog He is with us tonight the here

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I stand theology podcast. Go check him out He just released a new interview with a guy who

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Reviews Bibles, is that what he does? Yes, sir Reviews Bibles. Go check that that latest interview out with with Claude and Tyler the bread of the word podcast who puts one out at least every

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Sunday for us And we're thankful for that check bread of the word podcast out with with Tyler knowing so again, thank you for watching

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How you guys doing? Well doing doing good So Covenanted Dan where spaces don't matter

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That's my name on tik -tok and Rob sent me a message the other day saying it

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I should make that my name So I'm like, well, I'm not gonna put spaces in there He took my shirt literally that I have there's no gap in between Oh Mercy let's jump right in to our conversation on prayer and I'm thankful that that God has

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Brought these brothers together to be my friends to be my brothers and they carried on the podcast the past two weeks that I was absent and last week the the podcast on prayer was a

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Blessing it was encouraging it was convicting and and I'm so thankful that they were able to carry on and And have such a good conversation on prayer

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We're gonna look pretty much totally at Scripture tonight. If you want to get your Bibles have them out

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We're gonna look at Scripture tonight. We're gonna first look at Matthew chapter 6 and and our

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Lord Jesus Christ his example prayer Walk through it that's how we're gonna do is walk through it and and going from these brothers what they have learned from Jesus teaching on on how we should pray and then the next passage that we'll go to is

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James chapter 5 So if you're if you're in your scriptures, I'm gonna hold it up So I'm not looking down and you're not looking at the top of my head

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Matthew chapter 6 starting In verse 9 the the disciples asked

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Jesus Or pray and Jesus says pray then in this way our

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Father Who was in heaven? How would be your name? John Sir, let's start with you

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In your time over the years as a Christian as a teacher And you started off teaching this passage

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How would you how would you share? What is Jesus teaching us here? In this introductory part of his prayer well

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To begin with where we're coming out with the preconceived understanding that we are followers of God Because we're referring to him as father.

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I'm not referring to him as anything else and Just just in the way you took you start with his name

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You make sure that it is honored and it is respected and it is cherished. Hallowed be your name

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To me whenever Jesus begins pray it appears that his prayer and whenever he's worshiping or his prayers

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Uh is is worshipful as well as it is I guess community in a communicated way if that makes any sense at all

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Mm -hmm. Do you me go to ten or do me stop at nine? I Really wanted to go to I understand but that's

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That's where that's where I always started is that we don't we don't even begin this we don't even begin a prayer

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Without the utmost respect do God There's no there's no reason to come to to begin a prayer any other way and I think that in the first nine words

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You see the heart of worship. That should be What what ours is whenever we're praying this is not any other way

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I see it anyway So so John I I'm thinking back to the conversation that y 'all had last week.

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Yes, sir. And and you gave the the testimony of when you were on a missions trip and Just what the

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Lord taught you when when you you were in a place that that for you

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What was different from where you came from and You were aware of yours your surroundings your circumstances, but then the the people that you saw

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And how they worshipped despite those circumstances and so relate that experience to first nine here and and what you were just saying about how that relates to To our father and honoring his name and who he is that's a

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That's that's it's a tough thing to do Whenever Whenever they begin to pray over there.

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I don't speak their language. So I don't know Exactly how they how they began but one of the words that I learned over there was was their word

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Santo for holy and and if I heard it one time, I bet I heard it 9 ,000 times when

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I was there They they referred to God Every time they referred to God they referred him as holy

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They didn't refer to him as anything else and one of the things that I found in this country

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Contrasting How how impoverished that country was? Versus how wealthy our country is is how at times so carelessly we begin our prayers.

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I was watching Paul was Paul Washer It was like an excerpt from one of his sermons and he said how many times have we began a prayer?

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So carelessly the the man gets up behind the pulpit. He's a good morning. Everybody. I hope everybody's doing well And then he has a quick little snarky joke and he's laughing.

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He got a big bill Alright, let's go ahead and get started and let's go to the Lord in prayer and he closed his eye and he and he just started

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Immediately requesting, you know things of God to move in that and that service. There was no absolutely no reverence

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There was no There's no taking time to honor God's God's name As we as we moved into this time of prayer and Paul said that was at his core was sinful and that's one thing that I will say

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I noticed down there was The reverence people had for God seemed to be something that we might be lacking in this country, you know in a wholesale manner so God is holy thrice declared holy throughout

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Scripture and We have no reason to come to him in a manner anything less than the seraphim do you think about a

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Six -winged creature that I can't really wrap my mind around it covers its feet and its its face as it flies around the throne

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And all he can cry is holy. We shouldn't go to God and refer to him as his daddy right out right away and I feel like I've said too much on Leave it at that Yeah That story that you gave was really impactful to me and I think the other guys as well and to God be the glory when you describe those people that you were

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It was interesting I was putting myself in your shoes and I was like, you know, if I was there I'm going to minister there, but they would end up ministering to me and my spirit

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And it I don't know how much they changed my approach

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We've become I Didn't think I was I was spoiled

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I've always thought of myself as being just a regular guy, but we have forgotten the amenities that we have in this country and what they've what they've done to our our

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Expectation about church and about the way we minister. I think a lot of times if we're being honest, we tend to We tend to focus too much on on us or our own comfort whenever we're supposed to be spending 100 % of our time on God and his glory and That's one of the things that they didn't seem to be bothered at all by the heat by the by the dirt floors it didn't

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You know It didn't seem to bother them a bit and an argument could be made that that's their culture and that they're used to but whenever I see people who don't have two nickels rubbed together

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And they go to the floor to praise God for how blessed they are

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It sent me back in, you know, I don't know about 37 years or so As to how little

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I've been thankful and how much I've just expected to have If I can be just as hard as I can be in myself, you know

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It just seemed like they had a speaking of that The holiness of his name and the reverence for his name and which is representative of who he is

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It just seemed up to me like to me listening to that story that they had a perspective on who their father is

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That we don't have and it was just such a teachable moment for me and I you know

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I appreciate that story Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yeah, we should share anything we can do to help give

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God glory. He deserves it Dana are you ready to tackle verse 10?

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Let's do it It's a beautiful verse it starts off recognizing

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Christ is King God is even controlled everything

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What to what Christ is saying when he said that he'd come preaching the kingdom of God I'm Came preaching the kingdom that he he was he was he was coming on It ultimately would lead to the salvation of man for him going to the cross, but that he was in charge

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I would see it in the end of end of the same book Matthew But all authority had been given to him.

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So that prayer your kingdom come was was actually answered Um No, obviously it hadn't spread

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Everywhere. It hadn't reached its fullest expression and we're so we still pray that his kingdom would flourish and grow and reach

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Other than there if it's full and free as it ever will be But You're praying that God's kingdom would would come and then not only that but since he is

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King That his will would be done that says on earth as it is in heaven, so it's already being done in heaven

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But he's praying that his will would be done on earth as well. Now. Here's the thing Since he is holy

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Since he is in heaven since he is to be praised since we're supposed to pray to him We can take it to the bank that his will will be done upon the earth just as it's done in heaven.

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There's issues With it being done on earth sin, but Christ came to take care of that.

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He came to die on the cross to Bring an end to sin only eradicate sin to resurrect the dead and Man it's just beautiful.

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So when you look at it, we're praying for the wonderful Creative purposes of God that he would rule and reign as he created

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Created the earth for him to do that his will his purposes on the earth will be done

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Just like they're done in heaven So that way in heaven he speaks and something's done

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He says let there be light It's lit he says You know, the rocks are gonna cry out if you don't praise

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BAM it's gonna happen He says Lazarus come forth Lazarus comes forth

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Really you're saying God whatever you want Have happened. So it's a progression start off recognizing who

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God is Then you recognize what God's doing and you're not from our perspective trying to change that That mindset of what he's doing.

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You're just recognizing God for who he is You recognize him. He is our father.

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He's in heaven He should be worshipped and everything that he says is gonna come to pass And it's only after that that we get into verse 11 start asking for stuff.

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Even then we need to be a little careful Hey and brothers. I don't want to take away from the organicness of what was going on last week

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So if you all have anything to add, I know I'm trying to assign verses But if you have anything to add feel free to jump in If y 'all are ready

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Tyler, how about the next verse Verse 11 Yeah, is that that little pen on the back table of churches or daily bread

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So one thing that I'd like to highlight with that verse That I think often we have a tendency to pass over No pun intended is that it doesn't say give me the food that I need

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This is give us and in the Greek there It's that word give is dido me which is in the third person that it's a the posture of a group of the collective

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Give us the food that we need give us our daily bread and I think oftentimes we take that and we individualize it and It's God give me

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God grant this God do that, but the reality is God has brought us together in Christ that he has made us a a people for himself and Part of that is rooted in the fact that there is a

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God who is not us That we are dependent on someone over us and As Dan was laying out that we're seeing this progression with each line of this prayer who

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God is what he's doing and Here's the fact that we need him the fact that we are entirely

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Dependent on him that we are insufficient to meet our own needs And so yes,

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God give us the food that we need give us what we need because it all comes from you when

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Jesus Feeds the 5 ,000 and he lifts the basket up and he he blesses the the five loaves and two fish and he says

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He doesn't ask for food, but he says we thank you God for through you all things come to be

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It's we're anchored in this notion that it all comes from God that God is the thing from which everything comes from him to him and in him are all things as This verse reminds us of and forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors

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Well, what do you think about that Well, I think that you're you're forcing on us to be ready to be instant in season and out of season

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By signing by signing us these which I I say praise the Lord for But forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors instruction as Tyler just said

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Total reliance upon God and The forgiven forgiveness of sins coming only by and through the

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Lord he he's teaching His disciples there and us here that we are to be forgiving

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I mean, he the Apostle Paul told the church in Ephesus in chapter 4 and 32.

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He said be kind one to another tender -hearted Forgiving one another or God For God in Christ has also forgiven you so we're taught this as a pattern throughout the scriptures as we also

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Have forgiven our debtors. So Ultimately Christ is pointing them to his sacrifice

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And as a matter of reflection looking back And we know that they reckon the disciples recognize this looking back because we have it in the scripture

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So that is divine inspiration being set forth and we're kind of getting the

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It's not good English, but the front words in the backwards of it. So It will probably get to more the the forgiveness conversation here it's here at the end

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And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil For years is you know power and the glory forever.

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Amen, Andy Well, even before we look at that I want to step back for a little bit

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We'll get too far away from it because I think Dan had a lot of good points on ten and I just want to kind of infant and I think

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Tyler really hit the transition so I want to kind of Centralize on this, you know when he talks our father

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This assumes adoption. This assumes salvation. We spoke about this last week prayer being in interchange or The interface if you will, you know, we all have

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Phones and the phone by itself Isn't gonna call anyone it isn't gonna text anyone and if it does probably something wrong with it, you're probably being monitored by the

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FBI You know They have enough agents now

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Story for another day probably But yeah, it's pretty much not gonna do anything on its own.

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You can lay a gun on the table It's not gonna shoot anybody You've got to be able in order to use it

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You got to have some sort of interface to be able to properly use it And so that's why we have a way to turn it on we have a way to interact with it

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So that's ultimately what prayer is It's interacting with the Creator and it is the literal wishing of us and the desires of us going to God and being exchanged with his will and exchanged with What our desire should be so this?

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The very first two words of this model prayer for his disciples Which means it's for disciples of Christ assumes one's membership the kingdom to use a human category of membership assumes

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Salvation assumes adoption But particularly when you get to verse 10 when it says your kingdom come it's a very to me

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It's one of the things in my limited knowledge. I am Working through in Expanding my understanding of the original language is one things.

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I've spent a lot of time with is Greek verbs. I love them because there's so much more developed and Have so much more depth of meaning

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Based on how and what kind they are in the mood and the the voice and the tense and all these things

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So without getting too deep into that that what's really interesting the word come your kingdom come

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Has it what it wants and at the same time two different phases or two different aspects of it in terms of its action the kingdom come in the sense

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It's the one time you so a person in their day and a person our day could very rightfully say

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God's kingdom is here We're not waiting for it to come. It's here your kingdom come your kingdom has come and at the same time

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The kingdom is not fully realized in the sense that we're not in a state The last enemy of Christ, which will be death or excuse me

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All the all the enemies of Christ have not been dealt with have not been put under his feet So we're seeing that happen in time.

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So there's this Sort of this double nature of it in in time and we see this so when we say your kingdom come we're saying

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Your kingdoms here, but your kingdom is being you think of Isaiah 9 the ever expanding growth of the kingdom

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And then to take it one step further Your will be done Interesting verb in a sense

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It's the same type verb the same thing with or the same word rather when you look at the prologue of John and it talks about how

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Christ's self -existence But when in verse 3 we talks about all things came into being which were not in Existence they came into being in it and without Christ Nothing would have came into being which hadn't came the whole came into being is the same word

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Be done to come to exist to come into Manifestation to come into reality.

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So it's such a beautiful thing when you think about it that as the world Through individual

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Christians that are saved and raised to life learn and then obey the will of God and as the

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Holy Spirit and the truth of God covers the world and The will of God is done The kingdom is more realized it is growing and it

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I think we would prefer it grow a little quicker but it grows very slowly and One of the things that was told what

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I heard Probably about a year ago now that I'm still wrapping my head around is when Doug Wilson says we could be in the early church

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I'm like at first I was like He still sounds a little loco

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Little crazy and then I started looked and thought some more and I was like, well, I Don't sound all that wrong anymore to me.

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So but I say all that to say this, you know, you've led us to It was verse 13 there about leading the temptation

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So and so forth when you get past verse 10 and you understand that now on the earth

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The will of God's could be done to mirror how it already is in heaven and that will be progressively Happened in light of that Here's how you should live

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Here's how what you should pray for pray for your daily provision all the things that Tyler hit on be a forgiving person as Clive was talking about and What's really interesting with me with verse 13 here is?

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You know not lead us into testing into trial. We we want to not necessarily be in that We won't be delivered from evil.

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We want to see ourselves Delivered from these things that would keep us from from fully living out your will and so you really get a great picture here of What a kingdom citizen looks like in praiseful and I so I think it just beautifully ties all together

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Absolutely. Um, I Just wonder if it has any relationship with the beginning of Jesus's ministry

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He was led into the wilderness for by the Spirit temptation

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Does anybody see any relationship here with with verse 13 and what

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Jesus? experienced or is it Is it speaking of two separate things?

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I'm not sure. I Get exactly what you're saying By that I never thought of that before ever

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I always thought about when Jesus was driven into the spirit or driven in the wilderness by the spirit Was the was reminiscent of whenever they would take the scapegoat and drive it into the wilderness before the

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Before the sacrifice, but one of the things that I would say is

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I think that The same way he begins with this preconceived idea that we're followers of Christ He's our followers of God and following the followers of Christ.

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He's lending it the exact same way By saying and do not lead us it comes with the assumption that we're following right?

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We're ending with the exact same notion that we started with We're Following and I've always thought about this part about lead us into temptation.

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The Bible says that God doesn't tempt us With evil, right, right So when

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I see that lead us into temptation, I've always Always thought that this is a sign of understanding that we are so fallible

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That we're asking God to remember how weak we are When he's leading us that he not take us to something that can cause us to fall

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Now obviously God would know that he's all -knowing But I think that that's more than asking God to do something

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What was it you said last week brother Andy? about how Praying is not simply making God aware of the things that we need as much as it's

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I can't remember the quote exactly and I never did find it, but Do you remember what it was exactly?

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Yeah, you quoted it from Ligonier. It was A .W. Pink. A .W. Pink on Ligonier.

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Yes, but prayer is not simply a Inviting God to understand what we need or something like that But I guess just a second

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I just got just about got it the Quote from A .W. Pink prayer is not designed for the furnishing of God with the knowledge of what we need

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But it's designed as a confession to him of our sense of need and I think that fits right there perfectly we say

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Lead us not into temptation is not to somehow another act as if though we need to tell God how to do his job, but rather as a sense of confession of That we need to make sure that we're kept

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Away from anything that would otherwise tempt us. I don't know. I mean, I've always thought about it that way when

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I read that Then I say I say I agree 100 % with what you're saying

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John because everything from the beginning and the Lord's Prayer there is designed as a recognition and a realization of the holiness of God which in turn leads to his

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Authority his power his righteousness his goodness who God is That's where theology should always start when we start talking about the

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Bible to people We shouldn't start with What kind of a person you are we should start with how holy

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God is and then that I'm sorry I'm pointing at my screen here That 13th verse like you said

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I when you were talking I thought man and then Andy you had Andy quote that Quote may make that quote again, and I thought how

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How really lot how truly logical this prayer is that the

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Lord gives us for that lead It's not a temptation, but delivers from evil is a recognition of our weakness in God's strength

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As it's beautiful the way that you all described that I'll jump in Go ahead

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Tyler So I was just looking at what that phrase lead us in Comes out to in Greek, and I thought it was interesting that the word there is literally

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Pharaoh which means I bear or I bring and then it has the suffix ice for into so it literally is asking

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God not to bring us into temptations so I think there's an element here at least in part of Recognizing Another one of the attributes of God that God is a good shepherd.

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He doesn't bring us into evil that he delivers us from evil that we are held in his hand and So it's this line is about resting in the sovereignty of God in that that God doesn't bring us into wickedness

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He rather deliver it delivers us from evil yes Yeah, that's why I was able to take it one step farther we have to be careful when we because the goal of Interpretation with scripture is the normal plain sense of the reading of the text with the context that the original author intended

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So that's why you can't interpret the Bible Literally because you have so many different types of languages

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And if you're gonna temper it literally then you must believe Christ is an actual rock laying out in the yard because he's a cheap

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Cornerstone you've got to interpret it based on the type of literature things so and in this case

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You have Jesus giving a model prayer for sinful weak both weak in the sense of physically

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But also morally we're obviously justified and holy we're growing in holiness But we're still weak morally in the sense that we battle with simple flesh every day

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So you have to understand once you get past verse 10 you've laid out the recognition of who God is now in my view from the rest of the prayers about who we should be in Light of who

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God is we go to him for what we need But you you could this isn't an actual translation for say

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But you you could render this in the sense of what is being said is because you've forgiven us

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We need to be forgiving of other people and what they owe us Because you are the God that saves from sin and because we know from other scripture that God cannot sin

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Nor can he tipped us with sin. We know that you will deliver us from evil Because of our sanctification as a good shepherd, we do not want to be led into temptation

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We want to be delivered from evil and you know, because you are a forgiving God We should be forgiving others and so on so forth.

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So it really Speaks to the understanding of not just who God is in terms of his deity, but as Tyler correctly pointed out you're gonna see so much woven in these

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Gospels about the shepherding aspect of Christ and how We as his sheep could be rightly related to him practically and in a daily sense

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So you see in these verses 11 through 15? very practical ongoing

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Daily things that we need to be seeking to do and learn more about so it's I think everything that everybody is saying is really

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Putting a great bow on this where we see There's so much here But it's very simple.

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Amen You know, it's a

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It's why fasting is so important because it while we fast we

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Either put away some food or all food or for a period of time or whatever and it It causes you to be hungry.

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I mean, it's not pleasant Even if you know say you just fast from something where you've been having too much sugar

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You don't feel that because your body gets used to having the sugar or you feel hungry because you don't have all the sustenance that you

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Need and it helps you to realize but you know, if I don't have no food for You know a few weeks if I'll have water for a few days.

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I die If I don't have the power of Christ If I don't reach out to him to sustain me in this life and in my spiritual walk in my physical life

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And everything that I have I don't look to him for that self -less Then I don't have anything.

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So I'm really walking living breathing Because he sustained me so I recognize him for who he is

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I recognize him for what he does and I plead with him to sustain me because without him

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I'm like somebody who can't find food or somebody who can't find any water that's why it's important to fast every once in a while you get a

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Kind of remind yourself that they're just you're only like three days away from dying

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At any given point if you can't You're a lot closer to dying if you don't have the sustaining hand of God in your life

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Rob the The the remained the that this is this is a perfect example of why?

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when we go to the scriptures that we always look at the context because Jesus basically in the remainder of his speech here in the remainder of this text

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He he goes through literally everything that he's taught them in the prayer From fasting to laying up treasures in heaven to not being anxious

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He goes through every bit of that and it's all in relation to the kingdom because he says seek first the kingdom of God in His righteousness and these things will be added to you

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So he he this that's the beautiful thing about scripture. The Lord doesn't leave it

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It don't get me wrong when I say this he He doesn't leave it to be a mystery.

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He clearly lays out everything we need to know in the scripture Concerning him in his will it's beautiful and Claude just to kind of sum up what you did the point you just made

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So much you see it a lot in the book of Matthew, but you see it in other places But primarily in the book of Matthew when

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Jesus is teaching I don't I'm ignorant on this So I don't know this to be true, but it

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I could be wrong But I think it might have even been a Jewish culture thing when when they teach they almost say okay big idea and Then here's examples in a circle at the beginning of chapter 6 when he talks about beware of practicing your righteousness for men

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To be noticed by them. Okay. Yeah, what does that look like? Oh, I'm glad you asked

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So you see that repetition there so everything you just said makes perfect sense, yeah

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Yes, that's beautiful stuff. And I appreciate that that point that you make love Bringing that to light and just gives us a further hunger to dive in not only see teaching us about prayer

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But he's relating it He's putting it all together. Yeah, and just making it beautiful for us and helping us understand

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Who God is and what he's what he's telling us and and then I appreciate you bringing in one of my other questions about fasting

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And the the relationship the fasting kit has that the Bible teaches with fasting and praying

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And and I think you guys were also defining as you were talking about the

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Lord's Prayer the Lord's example prayer you were also defining in and Bringing out one of my other questions

37:39

The sovereignty or providence of God Versus man's responsibility. I mean you guys were all over it in your questions or in your answers

37:49

You know looking at verse 13 Do not lead us into temptation but deliver us from evil

37:56

I mean we are pleading to the Lord because he is the one who's sovereign.

38:02

He is the one who You Know we we contribute the providence to and it's us on our behalf

38:11

We We're going to him in submission. We're going to in we're going to him in reliance

38:18

Because he's the one in control He's the one ruling and reigning and it just shows that this

38:25

Lord's Prayer shows our relationship between and our Responsibility versus the sovereignty and providence of God, that's that's our place

38:35

In that relationship And going, you know going from the bottom to the top

38:41

It's pretty pretty easy to see in verse 13 that who's in control and and who?

38:48

We can take verse 11 and kind of sometimes in our lives There's certain things that we think we can have control of you know, our daily bread

38:57

Well, I work for my money. I work for my food But in reality if we look at these verses and working backwards back up to the top

39:08

Jesus is really teaching our reliance on the sovereignty and the providence of God and even to our daily bread

39:17

Beautifully brought that out. I Think that in when you see 6611

39:23

I Think there's a certain amount of of that we probably would be uncomfortable if we thought if we if we lived every single day this way, but if you go down to 19 do not store up for yourself treasures on earth or mall and rust destroy

39:39

But where thieves break in and steal but store up for yourself treasures in heaven Neither moth nor rust or must rust destroys.

39:46

I can't talk and what these do not steal Breaking and steal so many of the things in our life.

39:53

We we tend to Find comfort in our excess or comfort in what we're in our storehouses if you could use an old word, you know

40:02

I I'll put up and fat times for the lean times to come and there's a sense of I say this

40:13

Self reliance as opposed to complete Divine reliance and and one of the things that I'm not saying everybody should empty their savings account, you know

40:23

I'm not saying that right, you know by no means unless God tells you to do something different. That's totally different My point is is this

40:30

Regardless of what your savings account looks like or your refrigerator or your cabinets It's like that old woman in the

40:37

Dominican Republic She didn't have any savings account. She didn't have a bank account She had bags little bags of water that she sold for about Two US pennies and that's you know, somehow she made her living.

40:53

She goes to Lord in prayer. It's for for today, too She's not worried about tomorrow's troubles.

40:59

Today's got plenty of troubles. Let's worry about today and I think that that that verse 11 ties 19 and 20 together.

41:09

Well, don't don't be worried about trying to store up and make provision for yourself ask

41:14

God to give you what you need and trust him and that's Trusting that's a humongous part of being a

41:23

Christian. I mean, it's just trust in the Lord On a piggyback on that at the same time y 'all probably heard this joke, it's it's kind of a lame corny joke

41:34

But like okay, you should have heard you should have heard John's dad joke earlier are we doing dad jokes

41:40

I got a bunch of Well, like layman corny is about all

41:45

I got You hear the thing about the guy? He's on the stranded island. He asked him for the

41:50

Lord to save him You know, he sends like two or three boats and all this stuff. So it's like all these provisions It's like now

41:56

Lord's gonna save me. Well The point John isn't saying this well John John is saying this but not saying this in the sense that You have to fully trust in the

42:06

Lord. But what does that look like? Well, it doesn't look like saying well, I'm not gonna go out and work I'm not gonna go to the refrigerator and open something and eat it because somehow the

42:16

Lord will just miraculously fill my tummy No, there's So much that goes on that were commanded to do

42:23

That God uses as instruments to get us our daily bread

42:28

John is really talking about that Satisfaction in Christ that helps you understand and it's it's a very practical thing

42:35

It's something my wife and I are working through and at age 39. I think we're finally starting to kind of get there it is an obsessive desire to only want what is needed and Understanding there is an actual difference between needs and wants and we say it as a cliche we teach it as a cliche

42:55

You know, there's a difference between needs and wants Yes, there is and when you start living like it so much what

43:02

John was saying really comes to fruition for you Because you start realizing there's a lot of people in this world that are praying every day

43:09

Lord, give me my daily bread and their daily bread looks a lot different than mine So am

43:15

I somehow? Given more bread than they are No, it must mean that my understanding of what daily bread is is different and it's not correct

43:23

And so I just I thought that's a really good point John brought out there Absolutely, and I think

43:29

John's comment is a is a really good I think so. I'm gonna I'm gonna get y 'all's opinion I'm gonna start we're gonna just transition over to James chapter 5 and we want us our

43:40

Section for our topic starts kind of in in verse 13 But really it seems to start in verse 1

43:47

Piggybacking on John's comment and in his interpretation of what's going on here in in Matthew chapter 6

43:53

So you guys tell me based on what John was saying and him taking us to verse 19 20 and 21

43:58

I'm gonna start in in verse 1 and you guys tell me what you what you're hearing

44:04

You tell me what you're hearing from from what

44:10

John was saying To what James is saying here and beginning his conversation on prayer He says come now you rich weep and how for your miseries which are coming upon you

44:21

Your riches have rotted and your garments have have become moth Your gold and your silver have rusted and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire

44:34

It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasures To me that to me that was a good transition

44:44

From where John was going to our over to James chapter 5 Yep What do you see as the relationship there from where we were to where we are now in James?

44:57

Take it away Claude. I Would simply say the continuity of the scripture the continuity of the text itself

45:04

There's no there's no break or disconnect. That's the beauty of the text of Scripture Scripture interprets

45:12

Scripture and if there's one area or one passage of Scripture that seems to be

45:20

Unintelligible or uninterpretable Then we look for a clearer passage

45:25

But in the large majority of cases in the scripture, it's it's a clear connection

45:33

But and this is one of those cases where the scriptures there's continuity the continuity of the text comes to light

45:41

That it's not disconnected and disjointed that most that's how most people read the scriptures even many

45:48

Christians today read the scriptures and disconnect as though everything they read is disconnected and disjointed

45:55

Like the book of James is going to be saying something different than the book of Matthew like where we were

46:01

But the author is the same it is the Holy Spirit That's what the scriptures teaches and that's the beauty of it.

46:08

So I say amen to what you said Rob Let me have some comments on this because I don't want there to be any one side in us and us going somebody hearing what we're saying and and take it and go into one ditch because I Think there's a balance here in what's going on.

46:28

So I don't think this takes away from the other passages in Scripture where You see

46:35

Jesus teaching a man doesn't go deal before he you know considers considers, you know the

46:44

Expense he doesn't go to war with without considering he he's we're commanded to provide and protect for our families

46:52

I think there's a passage in Scripture. I'm not sure where it is where if we see if we see something

46:59

Bad coming we prepare for it And and of course, like I said the the protection and providing for our families and so We want to we want to do that and sometimes people

47:15

And me included, you know, I I think our family needs to prepare for you know a storm or You know something we see on the horizon

47:26

Yeah, I think I get what you're saying, but I think I'm out of line Go ahead. I'm out of line.

47:32

Yeah, but there's there's a sensible approach to everything, right? And if you're gonna take this scripture and you're going to use scripture to to balance it out

47:42

I think what Jesus is trying to say and what what James is saying is he says don't store up here yourselves treasures on earth

47:51

He says later on where your treasure is your heart is right He says to store up treasures in heaven

47:57

Where we're nothing nothing can destroy your treasures, right? So now took to my understanding the only thing we can take to heaven is people and that's it, right?

48:06

So I wouldn't look To store up something on this earth at the expense of a person

48:13

So I'm not going to put up rations and wealth and and and in this case probably garments if you're talking about moth and tearing them up at The expense of somebody else.

48:27

It's not to say that you don't store up food and you don't start I mean they had vats of wine they put up Grain every year.

48:36

This is not something that they he's saying you just run run along all you know Nonchalantly as brother

48:43

Andy was saying a while ago This daily bread is gonna look different for us and it does for somebody else

48:48

We're gonna get up and go to work and go buy provisions as opposed to somebody in his day who was going to plant Provisions and harvest them and put them up.

48:55

What he's saying. I think is Your treasure was where your heart is and if you put your stock in this world, it's gone

49:06

It's gonna it's gonna wax like dross. It's gonna it's gonna get old and it's not Your garments are going to go out of style.

49:12

You're not gonna live long enough to see it come back around Your your money is going to be worthless. Eventually inflation is gonna take it out as far as we're concerned.

49:20

I mean If you're gonna put up something and you're gonna you're gonna want to see a good return on an investment

49:27

It's people the only thing you can take to heaven with you. So don't don't put up something at the expense of a soul

49:36

Does that balance that out brother Rob in a way that I'm not saying to sell all that you've got and become a minimalist and live out of the back of your van

49:44

I'm saying down by the river for those I Think that's kind of work what if we're gonna use scripture to balance that out

50:04

I think Jesus answers what he's what he's getting at there. You know, that's what you see when him deal with the rich young ruler

50:10

Right. Yep. He says get rid of what you got and come with me. Let's let's see the kingdom of God He said

50:16

I don't do that. I got too much stuff Yep Yeah, I think you're exactly right

50:23

I think you hit the nail on the head You took it to that passage because the the heart of the matter is where the

50:28

Treasury is and where the Treasury is is Where the heart is that's what Jesus said. That's right. That's exactly right.

50:34

So I think motivation That's why

50:40

I've always said I do believe rich Christians exist I just think I think

50:45

I would find it and it's probably why I'm not one because I would Wouldn't be motivated properly with the money that would be given to me

50:50

So I think that's probably the reason I haven't been one But I would think it would have to be a very difficult road to trod to be a very wealthy rich Christian Because think about the constant

51:01

Prayer life you'd have to have to keep your voters in check and not use that For the purposes that James outlines in the first few verses

51:08

James 5 when he goes after him and says, who are you? Using all this that God created for your own purposes.

51:16

Who are you? Mm -hmm. I mean, I I am very thankful for rich Christians because they fund a lot of wonderful things

51:24

I'm just saying God has to in his sovereign control Determine who's gonna be that based on how he?

51:32

Created them to be because if every there's so many people that if you they had a million dollars fall on their lap tomorrow

51:37

They wouldn't do as John was talking about. They wouldn't be storing treasures and they'd be looking to get treasures now I know

51:44

I probably would that would be a very hard temptation for me I Can build off of that a little bit

51:52

Go ahead Tyler, yeah, go ahead so Romans 1 is a very Famous passage that we have a tendency to throw at people to show how sinful they are

52:03

But when we look at Romans 1 And throw it at ourselves Amen, one of the key points that Paul makes on the state of the carnal person of a person dead in sin is

52:17

No, they knew God they did not Honor him as God or give.

52:22

Thanks to him. Yep that we're in such a state of spiritual disarray that we can't say

52:28

Thank you Thanks to our Creator is something we are naturally unable to do but a third of the book of Psalms is

52:40

Not Psalms asking for God's forgiveness not songs of celebration. There are at least 50 songs that are songs of Thanksgiving That when we open the book of Psalms, we have psalms like bless the

52:53

Lord Oh my soul all that is within me bless his holy name

52:58

Amen, and forget not all his benefits. He forgives all your sins.

53:04

He heals all your infirmities He redeems your life from the pit

53:10

Amen and crowns that mercy. That's a loving kindness We as Christians have the ability that we didn't before to To express our thanks to our

53:30

Creator and that's not because of anything we bring to the table That's not because of anything we add to the formula because of what

53:37

God's done in us. Amen that we are naturally Reoriented to be thankful and to be thankful in the right ways to the right thing

53:47

Yeah, that's good. No, we We can thank God for the food that he brought on the table that he grew the corn and then he brought a farmer to harvest it and Cultivate it and to bring it where it needed to go to get to the plate

54:05

Now I say that despite being allergic to corn, but my point being We have an intimate relation with God that we didn't before One that is rooted in thanks

54:18

Give thanks to the Lord for he is good. He has said his covenant faithfulness

54:24

Endureth forever. Amen. Amen We you got thank you

54:29

Tyler so much you guys give me let's do a vote here If y 'all don't mind going over just a few extra minutes

54:37

I know we don't like cramming things in at the at the end or When we could do a whole nother program, but I wanted to wrap up our programs on prayer

54:46

But I did want to hit this specific text because it's a hard text and and I want to learn from you guys

54:51

So we won't go verse by verse. We'll just hit the hard part of this text So if we go over a few minutes a little over an hour

54:59

Is everybody okay with that? Okay. All right. Good.

55:05

Well, let's look at That verse. All right Space is don't matter to Dan the covenant or Dan anyway

55:17

But Dan is the one that's not feeling too well tonight, so Don't have to actually go to work tomorrow.

55:24

Oh praise the Lord for that All right, well the reason it may not be tough

55:32

For some people the reason it's been tough for me and the reason why I've tiptoed around this verse

55:38

I want to I Want to be able to say what the Bible says? and so I need to I Need to stand on that firm foundation

55:49

This is what the Bible says and and so that therefore I can say it I've been fearful for probably two reasons why

55:59

I would I've Kind of hesitated going to this passage number one because I don't want to I don't want to give somebody some type of hope or assurance

56:12

That that they will be raised or healed And it come for me and I let them down and it's a false sense of hope or assurance

56:22

I'm leading in the wrong direction But yet again, I want to say what the Bible says because if the

56:27

Bible says it then then I can say it And it's the Bible Speaking with authority and not me the other thing is the other reason why

56:35

I probably have tiptoed around these passages is because I Don't I don't it seems like and I don't mean any offense by this, but it seems like these verses

56:44

Are probably more prevalent in a charismatic setting charismatic background, and I don't have that background and so it's

56:54

Going to these passages is a little bit different for me because of my background

56:59

So I didn't many offense by that. It's just my perception of things so the passage

57:06

Verse 13 is self -explanatory. I mean is anyone among you suffering that he must pray is anyone cheerful?

57:14

He is to sing praises and then here we go. Is any among you sick? and this is

57:20

This is relevant for every single human being is any any among you sick? He must call for the elders and they are to pray over him anointing him with oil in the name of the

57:31

Lord and the prayer offered in faith Will restore the one who is sick and the

57:39

Lord will raise him up and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven So 13 14 and 15.

57:47

I would love to hear your insights guys on these passages You mind if I go first, yes, sir,

57:54

I spent I spent a great deal of time in this and I actually have With the independent fundamentals movement

58:03

I have a little less tolerance just because of I have a wild history with it

58:08

But I am friends personal friends with Pentecostal pastors, and I don't say that to say that any of y 'all are not

58:15

I'm just saying for me person. I am I'm pretty friends with them. Yeah And when you ask them about this passage balanced ones ones that I Can associate with will always tell you

58:31

We recognize that when we pray for healing. Yes, we have faith and expect that it can come now or in the days to come but we also recognize the ultimate healing is to be enter into death in this life and be

58:45

Fully healed in the presence Lord and they would understand that the way we would understand it. And so but that does not eliminate that there are many in the charismatic movement that believe every time if you pray you will be healed and if you don't you just didn't have enough faith and What I would say to them is why are you interpreting this passage differently than you would any other one?

59:09

consistency Contextual if I've learned nothing else from the good brother.

59:15

Dr. James R white out there and lovely way too hot for me to live Phoenix, Arizona, it's this contextual consistency

59:24

You handle this passage just like you would any passages on the Trinity Eschatology anything else?

59:30

So if we're gonna do that to keep this extreme long story short so that we don't go too long if you look and do the work of the context which

59:39

Really you have to take the whole book into into understanding but if you start where Rob did with chapter 5 how he

59:48

Goes off against the ones in the wrong motives going for their own thing Thinking that their man -centered understanding that I achieved this

59:56

I accumulate this I look at what I have done with my hands He turns his attention

01:00:01

Therefore in verse 7 and keep it in mind not exegeting everything for time purposes here But he looks to the weak to the ones that are in need

01:00:09

Specifically when he says in verse 7 the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil. It doesn't mean he didn't do the work

01:00:17

But he's still trusting God to provide God may provide the the work of his hands at a particular time or maybe another time

01:00:25

There's seasons where it doesn't produce as much you're still depending on the Lord regardless. So having said that you get down here

01:00:32

To verse 13 says anyone among you suffering meaning you're suffering some sort of evil trial affliction based on the original languages

01:00:39

He says pray And that goes back to Matthew 6 lead us not into temptation deliver us from evil if you find yourself in that guess what there's

01:00:47

Only one person who can lead you out of it. That's God Anyone cheerful sing praises everything Tyler said about those 50 some odd Psalms that are focused on that Is anyone among you sick?

01:00:58

Here's the thing where I usually take here's the point I was gonna get to is I take this a little differently than what most people do I don't think the focus is primarily on physical.

01:01:06

I think it's on spiritual Now the word that is translated sick in the New American Standard to verse 14 can mean

01:01:13

Physically sick or morally sick. It can be either one I think the context is going to dictate a more primary focus on spiritual and here's why

01:01:21

Says any money any among you sick call for the elders of the church and just as a side note here

01:01:28

This is another example why a plurality of biblically qualified elders over congregation is God's only method

01:01:34

But I digress I'm handling that on a completely different subject, but calm to have him pray over you anointing with oil and Doing it in the name of the

01:01:43

Lord One of the elders primary functions is to help Disciple Christians in which means you're coming more into righteousness out of Sinfulness.

01:01:55

Okay, the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick if the moral is in view here

01:02:00

We need to understand Sinfulness is sickness We reside in sinful flesh, which is still sick

01:02:08

And he says the Lord will raise him up the Lord will help you and then I'll talk all in my thoughts here So other brothers can speak verse 16

01:02:16

Therefore Therefore's are important because in light of what he just said about calling for the elders to pray and the prayer of faith will heal

01:02:23

You what does he say says confess your sins one to another if it's primarily physically in mind

01:02:30

Why wouldn't you confess your ailments one to another? You confess your sins one to another obviously some sins don't need necessarily be public

01:02:38

I think the understanding here is you have private Christians you can get with now I don't I wouldn't argue against public confession of sin, but whether it's public or private

01:02:47

We're confessing our sins one to another praying for one another why so that you may be healed

01:02:54

God's primary motivation and healing is from sin because the

01:03:00

Ailment that you may have may be there for a purpose though A lot more can say I'll stop there.

01:03:05

So there's can chime in but that's something I bet this past week I've really been diving into this. I just want to kind of go through that.

01:03:14

I Kind of agree with you. I kind of seem a little bit different at the same time

01:03:19

But I do think he's talking about a physical sickness in verse 14, which is any among you sick?

01:03:25

But I think you're dead on when you talk about the rest of it being spiritual

01:03:31

I think what he's getting at here is if somebody's sick What do you do you call the elders have them come in and the one with oil and pray for him

01:03:38

Why because you might be getting this person ready to meet the maker Yeah, so what is that?

01:03:44

What is the purpose here of you? Going in with oil and then hearing a confession of sins and pointing them to the gospel

01:03:51

You're getting them ready to meet their creator You're gonna get them ready to be as it says right here and the

01:03:57

Lord will raise him up How is he gonna get raised up if he's not put down? Even to the grave

01:04:04

And then I think it's also spiritual because of what you said, which is therefore You know in light of what

01:04:11

I've just told you about what to do with the sick Therefore confess your sins to one another pray for one another why so you may be healed

01:04:20

I think that healing is a spiritual healing So while you what do you what do we do with those who are physically ill to the point where they need to call for?

01:04:29

the elders to come to them You go to them and make sure that they are healed in the most Eternal of senses that they know

01:04:36

Christ is there is their Savior and that they have Forgiveness of sins because they trust in the one who can forgive sin

01:04:44

Good point All right, so I Believe that there's an argument to be made obviously the disc would apply

01:04:56

In a very spiritual sense, I think that is dealing with the physical as a as a

01:05:04

Pentecostal, obviously, I've heard this scripture a myriad of times and I Thought I'd I'd sit back and wait for a little bit before I because I immediately

01:05:15

I'll say this There's a humongous difference between being a Pentecostal and being a charismatic

01:05:22

Because Wow, I would say most Pentecostals are charismatic There's charismatics that are there aren't even

01:05:30

Christian. So I mean and I'll leave that at that. So when you read this here Can you roll that screen down some so we can get back to the job 510?

01:05:40

Yes, sir Thank you so much So he says as an example brother Suffering and patience take the prophets who spoke to you in the name of the

01:05:48

Lord again this harkens back to spiritual aspects and then you get to Which verse is it where it says the suffering

01:05:59

It's kind of scooting along the page here Is it 13? Yes, is any of you suffering?

01:06:06

And he must pray if you want cheerful and sing praises is anyone sick among you now immediately I think of first Corinthians 11

01:06:15

If you go around we start in 23 Jesus is talking or excuse me

01:06:20

Paul saying for I received from the Lord that which I delivered you that the Lord Jesus in and the night in which he had trade took bread and he took gifts.

01:06:28

Thanks and broke it This is my body Which is for you do this and remembers to me in the same way. He took up the cup after saying

01:06:35

This is the cup of new covenant my blood do this as often as you do as you drink it remembers of me As often as you eat the bread and drink of the cup you proclaim the

01:06:43

Lord's death until he comes therefore Whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup the Lord in an unworthy manner Shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the

01:06:50

Lord But a man must examine himself and in so doing if he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup

01:06:59

Eat of the bread and drink of the cup the blood Lord. He must examine himself My eyes ain't as good for he who eats and drinks eats and drinks judgment to himself and it does not

01:07:09

Judge both rightly for this reason many among you are sick or are weak and sick and a number sleep

01:07:16

So There are times This is just a common sense.

01:07:22

There are times when the sinfulness of man causes him to become sick whether it's

01:07:29

I'll just leave this part alone. There's there's there's diseases that seem to attack sinful people who engage in simple acts

01:07:38

Right, and I don't the only reason I don't say it any louder than that's because I don't want this to be taken off the face But rather Rob, I'm thinking about I'm thinking about the censorship aspect of this.

01:07:48

I see no reason why you can't have a parallel of spiritually sick and physically sick at the same time but I do not think that it is primarily just a physical or a spiritual nature because If anyone among you is sick

01:08:05

Let him call for the elders of the church and they pray over him anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord Can you can you make 15 all the way on the page, please sir, yes, sir

01:08:16

Thank you, and the prayer offered up in faith will restore now that word right there can also mean saved can save the one who was sick and the

01:08:27

Lord will raise him up and If that couldn't be a bigger word in that verse right there and if he has committed sin

01:08:34

So to me that says that there's a chance That this sickness he's dealing with isn't simply because of sin

01:08:42

But it can be but it doesn't have to be and then they will be forgiven so if this is a manner of him being sick because of a sin a

01:08:54

Prayer of faith will grant him forgiveness of this sin But it may not heal his body

01:09:00

And I don't know a single Church God Pentecostal That would hold us to a standard that said everybody who prays a prayer of faith is healed

01:09:12

The my teacher through MIP When we dealt with this scripture said if you believe

01:09:21

That this is for that every person you pray for in faith will be healed

01:09:26

He said I want you to come with me right now And let's go to the children's wing of the cancer unit closest to you and let's see all these kids healed and sent home

01:09:33

There's a certain amount of God's sovereignty that will never be Surplanted by any amount of prayer by anybody and I Think that you have to take all that into bounds and in the context of what's being said there

01:09:47

They're going to be aspects of our life well, we're going to be sick and it's because we are weak and frail people and God has the ability of course at any time to heal us, but that's ability of God's And I think if he does heal us it's because of his grace and his work of his own

01:10:05

Sovereign will as opposed to him being strong armed by a prayer of quote -unquote faith

01:10:10

Amen, it's saying and I pretty much leave it at that. Is that okay brother

01:10:16

Rob is a stop right there Yeah, that sounds great. And I appreciate all the insights from everybody.

01:10:22

I think I'm on board with what everybody was saying and Yeah, well,

01:10:28

I was just going to interject a few things and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong but I was listening to Phil Phil Johnson and so instead of We want to know what faith is how to pray in faith

01:10:48

And it's faith is spoken of here. So we want to pray and we'll pray in faith So what is it?

01:10:53

Not I would say that it's it's not Faith, it's not faith in our prayer or in our ability or our praying but it's faith

01:11:01

In in God and what he his promises and what he's doing and what he's going to do

01:11:10

And trusting in that trusting in what he's going to do Not that's not having faith in our prayers or ability but faith in God his promises and what he's doing.

01:11:19

Um, and then Oh about about Elijah something

01:11:24

Phil Johnson kind of summarized because James here uses Elijah and his his prayer life as an example

01:11:30

And and just simply I'm going to repeat his summarization The example from Elijah was he prayed privately?

01:11:39

He prayed passionately and he prayed fervently. So if we if we keep those things in mind,

01:11:46

I think we'll be on a good track The the other thing that I was going to bring in is

01:11:52

I'm thinking about the Gospels and I'm thinking about Jesus in his ministry and He he heals or he he forgives someone's other sins and you have the

01:12:04

Pharisees coming in and say well Well, who are you and he said was is it easier for me to to say you're forgiven or to take up?

01:12:14

you know take up your bed and walk and and of course the The purpose and all that is to say or to show his authority that he has to forgive sins on earth

01:12:25

I'm I think I'm seeing a relationship with that here Yeah We're pointing to Jesus as the one who has authority and so that's why we're coming to him in faith and what he can do

01:12:39

What he's doing Does anybody else see that or see a relationship with with that passage?

01:12:49

I just want to very quickly say that what what Dan and John both said is Actually my view

01:12:55

I'm thinking about how I was explained I actually wasn't very clear and how I walked through that they did a much better job of explaining and I think they've actually

01:13:03

I Think I was wrong on some of it too because what they say clarified some things and so I think I'm actually

01:13:09

Would need to change my view to fit more of what they were saying because I see the physical part there now that they brought that out so that this

01:13:16

I think it's just one good example why it's important to wrestle with the text because I think I I think I was focusing too much on the latter verses and Didn't quite catch that part in there because John brought it out really well, you know about the physical part and Dan as well, so And thought

01:13:33

I want I want you to say what you're gonna say but also Pastorally, I would like you to answer this question so you have your your brothers and sisters in Christ and and they're one of your congregants and They read this passage and they're suffering and there's there are really going, you know

01:13:50

There's some difficulty and they read this passage and they come to you and say, you know pastor. I see this passage in James What does that mean to me so what would you say to your congregation

01:14:06

Who are you asking you you as a pastor, okay What would

01:14:12

I say to them Yeah, if they're coming, you know clogged and you come to my house, you know,

01:14:19

I see this passage I've been diagnosed with this, you know disease Pastorally, what would you say so I would say let me get sir and Kenny Those are my other two elders.

01:14:31

I would say we're on the way. I would go and I would pray with them

01:14:38

For right at that moment That's not a time for me to say what

01:14:44

I'm getting ready to say here in a minute Mm -hmm Right. It's not a theology lesson for the dying person.

01:14:51

It's a matter of them demonstrating their faith and trust in the scriptures themselves and Us recognizing that we have no power in and of ourselves to accomplish anything

01:15:04

But that the God that God is faithful and he will do what is pleasing and acceptable in his sight

01:15:12

And so we go and we pray and what do we pray for we pray for them to be healed, but we say

01:15:19

If it be your will Oh Lord Or that's what we're taught in the in the model prayer

01:15:27

Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven It doesn't mean we we believe it any less.

01:15:34

It doesn't mean it doesn't it doesn't change anything But we go and we pray with him because that's what they're seeing in the text and in we are

01:15:44

Obedient being obedient to the text itself there That does that is that an acceptable answer?

01:15:51

Absolutely So in in here's where wise why

01:15:57

I said what I said It's not the time for me to say what I'm about to say. So we're looking at this text and We are looking at it at a very micro level

01:16:07

We are honed in on what's being said, which is very important, but we need to understand when

01:16:15

It's being said in Who is saying it? So who wrote the book of James?

01:16:24

James right the Apostle James, right? It's written during the time of Inspiration, so I'm gonna

01:16:31

I want to can I take just a few minutes here and read a little bit of commentary? Puritan and pre

01:16:38

Puritan because this is exactly my view here as well. So Let me figure out how to preface this

01:16:48

I Said we're looking at this at a micro level

01:16:53

It you remember all of it. Well, I'll except for Tyler because he's the young one.

01:16:59

He's the youngling here He won't remember cameras where you had physically had to take your hand and turn the focus knob backwards and forwards

01:17:07

So that little knob was there and you just yank it and you go from you go from in to out like this

01:17:13

Those are the sound effects for the night Those are copyrighted by the way

01:17:20

So what I want us to do is to take just a moment here and just zoom way out

01:17:25

I mean like you're on Google Earth right now on the interwebs and you're zoomed in on your house and then just pull back

01:17:33

Where you're above the earth because this is very very important for us to understand This helps us understand the text that what's being written was written during the time when the miracle the the miracle the gifts of healing and miracles was taking place to Demonstrate the authority and the veracity of Christ's claim

01:18:00

Concerning that he was the Son of God Okay in the at the end of John's gospel

01:18:06

John John says this Jesus did these Signs and many other signs of which if the if books were written the world right

01:18:17

But they were done for one reason and that was for this that you might believe that Jesus Christ is the

01:18:23

Son of God So let me go to Thomas Manton. I I sent a link early on A little before the show way too late for me to send it because there's so much here

01:18:34

But let me just read a few excerpts. He says this concerning where it talks about anointing with oil

01:18:41

Manton said there is but one place more in the scriptures that speak of using Oh, by the way, this is written in the 1500s that speak of using oil in the healing and cure of diseases and that was in Mark chapter 6 verse 13 where it says they cast out many devils and Anointed many or anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them

01:19:04

He said this oil among the Hebrews was a usual symbol of divine grace.

01:19:09

So the The the people in that day were were very much connected with the invisible work in the biz in the visible work and so Manton said and so fitly used the sign as Of power and grace of the

01:19:26

Spirit which was discovered in miraculous healing so they connected this oil and the miracle together right it gave them a physical tangible

01:19:36

Idea of what was taking place But he goes on to say this oil was not used as an instrument

01:19:43

But as a symbol of the cure in our day and in our time and when we read texts like this like this

01:19:49

It's easy for us to say well the powers in the oil No, the power is not in the oil. There's no power in the oil

01:19:55

It doesn't matter what where the oil comes from or what kind of oil it is

01:20:00

It's not the instrument of healing itself But it is the symbol of the cure as Manton said he goes on to say this as I remember

01:20:12

Grudius in his commentary on the on the evangelist Proveth that it was a usual right among that people it being their custom to express everything inward and spiritual by some hieroglyphic invisible symbol

01:20:27

So that's what I just said there a minute ago and therefore God in a condescension to them appointed so many rights and figures suitable to the genius of that nation and Therefore when they prayed for the sick

01:20:40

They would anoint them with oil as a token of that ease and joy that they should obtain from God This right was imitated by the

01:20:48

Apostles and by the primitive Christians with such preciseness and constancy That they would never give or take any mess medicine without anointing with oil

01:20:58

So it was kind of like a you know A connection they were making so that Manton says so that I think verily it was nothing but an imitation of a

01:21:07

Jewish, right? Which Christ approved but never instituted or when Christ sent out the

01:21:12

Apostles and the power of healing was so solemnly Conferred upon them we hear of no such commands of anointing with oil.

01:21:19

He simply bid them Healthiness, right? Heal the sick raise the dead. That was the the message he gave to the disciples when he sent him out and so That was an arbitrary right which the

01:21:31

Lord approved so far as thereby to discover his power something may be objected against this as Why the end of James pressed the elders to anoint with oil and this is what

01:21:44

Manton said He said I answer that they might not neglect the grace of God which in those times was usually dispensed

01:21:52

In a holy cow. This is why There probably aren't Puritan writers today

01:21:58

Can competent to me can competency? I know you're gonna try to say that With this right as long as the gift remained the a custom right and symbol might be used, right?

01:22:10

This is the gift the gift in the symbol But you will say he coupleth it with a moral duty and that being prayer, which is an act of perpetual worship

01:22:22

Manton said I answer it is not unusual in Scripture to couple an ordinary duty with an ordinary, right?

01:22:30

Prayer and laying on of hands Baptism and laying on of hands and so here in James prayer and anointing with oil

01:22:40

But you will say God honored it with a miraculous effect. I answer so he did

01:22:47

Just as he did the water of Siloam To heal the blind the pull of Bethesda to cure the disease.

01:22:55

You see the connections that's being made here Jordan for Naaman's leprosy and yet these cannot be set up as sacraments in standing ordinances

01:23:04

I'm getting to the end of this guys. I'm sorry, but this is very important in the Apostles time

01:23:10

It was promiscuously used and applied to every member of the church But with great prudence and caution or the

01:23:17

Apostles only anointed those of whose recovery They were assured by the Holy Ghost as James here seemeth to restrain it to such an object where they could pray in faith

01:23:28

He he that gave the gift did always suggest the seasons of using it with the power

01:23:35

He gave with whom he gave power of discretion that by a common use they might not expose the gift of scorn

01:23:42

So what he's saying here in simple layman's terms is this that the

01:23:48

Apostles Right and their close associates in the New Testament time during a period of inspiration

01:23:56

We're given the discretion to heal who they wanted to heal and to not heal who they didn't want to heal

01:24:03

We see this we see this with trophimus when he was left sick at Miletus We see this with a paphroditus according in I think it's maybe

01:24:13

Philippians, right? sickness We see this with Timothy, right Paul could it

01:24:19

Paul and Timothy were We're brothers. They were hanging out all the time, but Paul didn't ever heal

01:24:25

Timothy he said take a little wine for your stomach's sake so in in Closing my speech here in the

01:24:34

Thomas Manton says in the more common use of it afterward All were not healed that were anointed

01:24:41

God gave out his grace and power as he saw good for the effect did not appear depend upon anointing

01:24:49

But the prayer of faith as the text says by the prayer that the prayer of faith shall save the sick

01:24:55

John brought that out God wrought then as he worketh now by the ordinary means sometimes blessing them sometimes leaving them ineffectual all

01:25:07

Depending upon his free pleasure and operation and so we answer this question here

01:25:12

When did it cease when did the gift of healing cease? We in when it

01:25:19

I'm sorry Manton says this when it did cease We cannot tell when it should cease

01:25:24

We may easily judge if we will but understand the nature use and the end

01:25:30

The riot ceased when the gift ceased he's talking about this right right of anointing with oil right which

01:25:38

God had taken from the world almost these 1 ,500 years so this has been written in the 1500s of 1400s

01:25:47

I guess gifts of healing are coupled with other miraculous gifts and ceased when they ceased at the first mission of the

01:25:56

Apostles to gain the world Christ invested them with these gifts as A tree newly set need needs watering which afterwards we discontinue

01:26:05

So after some space of time these dispensations ceased for miracles would not have been miracles

01:26:12

But reckoned among ordinary effects. So what what Thomas Manton is saying in In simplest way,

01:26:21

I know how to say it. He's approaching this from a cessationist perspective, right? He's saying God can certainly and this is my this is my

01:26:30

My view God can certainly heal Anybody he wants to when he wants to and he does not need me.

01:26:39

He does not need another man He does not need oil All he needs is to determine that he is going to do such a thing in whom

01:26:49

He will heal he will heal and those whom he will not he will not it is his

01:26:56

Sovereign prerogative to do so but when we look at this text I think it's very easy to get in on that micro level and to say

01:27:05

These are the norm. This is the normative thing that we should be doing that we should be seeing when miracles have never been normative a

01:27:15

Miracle is outside of nature a miracle is something that is not able to be explained so if if the gifts the the sign gifts

01:27:28

Particularly in the New Testament when we read those if we perceive those to be the norm in our day in our time

01:27:34

Then they'd cease to be miracles in and of themselves There was that was so good cue the organ, please

01:27:44

Yeah, well, I can't can you can you amen your own preaching No, I can't that's pride

01:27:57

There was so many things that I could pull from that to relate to so many other things like Why it's important to study and understand

01:28:06

Yeah, some of the words that you used that Applied to other things, but I don't want to take away from what you just said about What that relates to James and James chapter 5 and prayer

01:28:18

And I want to say one more thing and that's the thing I said it in my preface remarks

01:28:24

They're in answer to your question. It doesn't change our confidence in the power of God.

01:28:30

Yeah looking Looking at the text in context. It doesn't change.

01:28:35

It doesn't change Anything other than it helps us to realize that the power is of God and not of ourselves

01:28:47

And I'll just leave all my thoughts and connections for later I'll add one thing right quick.

01:28:54

Yeah, and obviously I'm not a cessationist, right? And and I might be the only one on here that isn't and that's you know, that's that's cool

01:29:03

You know, I'm not upset about that one bit. That's one I Want to say this for anybody who's listening and as and has made it through an hour and a half

01:29:15

For one. Thank you to if if you or someone that you love is struggling, especially with a terminal condition

01:29:23

Yeah I would have you know that there's no part in my and and who I am or anything that I know of or any point

01:29:29

Scripture that would disagree That God is able to heal you or your loved one, but he may not

01:29:36

And that is not a sign that somehow another you have no faith. That's right What anybody anybody try to tell you anything different than that?

01:29:44

That's right. I We buried my mother -in -law who was a hero of mine in the face

01:29:51

She had a she had no doubt whatsoever that God was able to heal her She had a very terminal condition the only person that didn't seem upset the entire time.

01:30:02

She was dying was her Man everybody else everybody else seemed to be

01:30:09

Fit in the are you suffering part? She was the one terminally ill but her spirit was never diminished and if it was it wasn't in such a way that I ever saw it a man it reminds me of a

01:30:22

It was a young lady who since went on to be with the Lord. I forgotten her name It's been many years since I saw it, but it was on a wretched wretched

01:30:31

TV Toddfield had interviewed her. She was terminally ill with cancer from the time.

01:30:37

She was a little girl Having four daughters myself. I know exactly what her dad was probably done every time he heard of a

01:30:45

Healing that was taking place if he could physically get his daughter there, even if he couldn't go with her.

01:30:50

He sent her Yeah, because he's paid for all the doctors. He's done everything he can do to see his daughter live

01:30:57

Who wouldn't do that for your children? Even though we're evil as Jesus would say who would who would stop from giving your child one good thing

01:31:04

So he tried everything he could do All the all the tent revivals that she went to all the healing services that she attended at 20

01:31:14

I think was 21 years old. She passed away and before she passed away. She gave this testimony. She said that She was glad That she was what she was terminal

01:31:27

Because one thing she knew for sure Was that?

01:31:33

God had never left her side He had given her comfort Every moment of her life.

01:31:38

She said I cannot get out of bed in the morning Without God because I'm too weak

01:31:44

It hurts to take a step it hurts to move it hurts to breathe And if I were well, this is her words not mine

01:31:51

She said if I were well I know me good enough to know that I wouldn't need God this much and I wouldn't ask for God to be a part

01:31:57

Of my life this much I wouldn't surrender the parts of who I am to God in this manner because I wouldn't

01:32:03

I would try to do it in my own strength and It was in her weakness That Christ's strength was made perfect and it was in her weakness that God carried her and while I assume that She didn't live much past that the taping of that that testimony

01:32:20

I also assumed she carried into the arms of the presence of the Lord because of the faith that she had in him and And I wouldn't

01:32:27

I would encourage anyone who's listening who may be dealing with sickness of their own Or sickness of somebody that they love or a close friend

01:32:34

Is that though this thing may be all the way to the grave? It does not win if you're in Christ and though there may be hard times ahead

01:32:43

I assure you your faith in Christ is worth it. It is worth it and He hasn't left you one moment and he will not leave you one moment.

01:32:53

We have a promise of him I never leave you nor forsake you and he's as good as his word. I'm done

01:33:02

Amen Isaiah 53 by his stripes we are healed

01:33:10

We are brought to life in Christ in salvation. The Holy Spirit is sanctifying us in Christ We will be glorified as these brothers have said we will be raised

01:33:22

After five Says we he will raise us up. He will raise us up in glory

01:33:27

He will raise us up in debt. He will raise us up and spiritually heal us

01:33:32

He will raise us up if it's his will from our sickness But it's praying believing in him and his work for his kingdom of what he's doing

01:33:41

Not in ourselves and not in our prayer and I think these brothers beautifully brought that out

01:33:47

But it's by his Jesus Christ by his stripes We are healed and we'll we'll see that complete healing one day from from all these things

01:33:59

That was that was so amazing guys another another beautiful Conversation from you guys.

01:34:05

I'm so thankful And since you gave me permission, I'll just quickly as I can just bring out

01:34:13

The things that you were saying called were so important the context context context the the context of Understanding that the oil and the the prayer another part of the con or another part of the context here in James If you go back to verse 7 he's speaking you gotta know his audience you were talking about the

01:34:40

The from our perspective the cessationist perspective that the context of the time frame of the ending of the the miracle gifts to the

01:34:52

Apostles but also the the context of the The the time frame therefore be patient brethren until the coming of the

01:35:01

Lord Peppered all throughout the Old Testament is is this warning?

01:35:06

You know Flee to the hills when you see this happening.

01:35:12

This is soon to take place. This is soon. It's near It's soon to take place. This is something and and he's speaking of the the suffering that's going on Um, so it could be in that time frame working up to You know 70

01:35:27

AD So so you have that context of of time and in God's timetable and and what's going on?

01:35:35

And then you talking about Understanding the the context of their culture and how they communicated how they heard how

01:35:45

What they did what they practiced how they communicated and it was so wonderful that you you

01:35:52

You taught us about the the old and it has no power, but it signified

01:35:59

It was a symbol that signified where the power is and what was going on and you you gave us so many other examples

01:36:06

And when you were using those two words signify and and symbol It brought me over to Revelation chapter 1 verse 1

01:36:17

And it it's the King James that uses the word that you use but the revelation of Jesus Christ Which God gave unto him to shoo unto his servants things

01:36:27

Which must shortly come to pass and he sent and Signified and that's how we read.

01:36:33

That's why we read Revelation the way we read it is because these symbols Signify, I mean, that's what the word signify means symbol signifies

01:36:44

What what's really going on where the power is? So that's why we read Revelation the way we read it because it signifies the symbol signify

01:36:54

What's going on so you you're teaching on the context was so powerful and so helpful and I appreciate it and Yeah, everything that everybody said tonight

01:37:05

I think was spot -on and so encouraging and I just pray that the Lord will use it in a mighty way with that being said

01:37:13

We'll close this podcast Thank you for letting you guys letting me call on you

01:37:19

Kind of on the spot and one verse by verse and and having you be ready in season out of season So with that said

01:37:26

Andy, I would love for you to share the gospel And brother Johnny if you'll pray when he finishes

01:37:33

Yes, sir. Amen last thought I would have to is I think my view on James has been a little changed tonight by Claude and Dan and all the contents that just shows you that I'm a pastor too, but we don't have it all figured out

01:37:47

We learn from other people and if you ever pretend like you got it nailed on everything, you'll find out you don't some

01:37:54

I have a lot. I have a lot to chew on. So I'm thinking I was approaching it Incorrectly, so thank you for that.

01:38:00

Let's the gospel Jesus Christ. He is there's one creator and Everything that came into being including the material universe and every single human being that's ever lived was created by Jesus Christ we because of Adam we are born with a physical body with a soul, but a spirit that's dead and We are born with what is called a sin nature.

01:38:24

We love sin. We choose it. We rebel against our Creator and The entrance fee into God's kingdoms perfect righteousness you have to be perfect But guess what bad news is none of us can be

01:38:38

Nobody ever will be only one man was I was Jesus Christ. So what's the good news of the gospel? Good news is

01:38:44

Jesus Christ took your place Every bit of wrath every bit of punishment that you and I deserve for the sin that we committed

01:38:53

Jesus Christ took it on himself. Yeah, he took it for you man Repent of your sin doesn't mean you go through every single sin you've ever committed

01:39:01

The understanding is that you're turning from it You're recognizing these things to be true and because of the result you were a sinner

01:39:07

You repent and put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ and you know what you will find You'll find them to be a perfect Savior every single time

01:39:17

There is nothing you need to do to add to his work nothing You need you can you can do to take away from it the shed blood of Jesus Christ the cross of Calvary is perfect Father we come to you in Jesus name that name that is above every name

01:39:36

Knowing that you're holy God and that you're sovereign and you're in total control I ask that you that you bless the men that are here tonight and their families

01:39:46

I ask that you bless those that have took time to listen and to apply the things It's been discussed here

01:39:53

Lord, I pray that you get glory out of all our lives Because you're just so deserving of it

01:39:58

Lord You're so deserving of it not until when you come again together to break your word open and to learn from it

01:40:08

I pray that you protect us That you lead us in the ways that you'd have us to go And that by your own divine grace and sovereign will be glorified.

01:40:19

It's in Jesus name. I pray. Amen Thank you guys. Yes, sir

01:40:28

Thank you, thank you everybody for watching laborers podcast Remember that Jesus is King go live in the victory of Christ Go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.