Are We Bribing Our Children? | Outside Eden

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Welcome to Outside Eden, two sinners discovering grace together. Morning.

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Take number three. Well, and that's exactly what's happening, our two sinners who are parents and who have been to have their own struggles trying to figure out how to live by God's grace and give grace to others.

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Morning, Judith. Good morning. For those of you, if this is your first episode, this is episode four. We're going through the book.

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I actually need the title. Help me out here. There we go. For the Love of Discipline by Sarah Wallace. So shout out to Sarah.

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She's done a fantastic job. If you haven't got or purchased the book yet, please do so. This is our fourth episode, but we're covering chapter three because we did do an intro.

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So this is chapter three today on rewards and the gospel. And we're going to mention some of the stuff that's in the chapter.

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She's got some fantastic illustrations in there. But Justin, or man, I've recorded two episodes today or this week with Justin.

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So anyways. You can call me Justin. It's okay. No, I do not want to be heard to Justin. I love him, but not that much.

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So anyways, so Judith, rewards is a weird word. It's definitely a tactic being used in today's culture and parenting.

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We see it often where we want to reinforce good behavior, right?

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If just in the beginning, if I could retitle it, if she would let me do that, I think, and she does a really good job explaining what she means by reward, but I think

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I would say I would maybe use the word affirmation and the gospel, like affirming, reinforcing what good behaviors can do.

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So I'll just start with that. So just kind of walk you through today's episode. We're going to walk through kind of the goals of what this chapter is about and rewards.

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And then really the heart of it at the gospel. And then bribes, rewards are not bribes, which is,

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I think what we tend to do because our hearts are sinful and we just kind of, it seems easy, quick fix.

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So stay tuned for the bribes. We're all guilty of it. So we're not judging you. We've done it.

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I did it this morning. I told Knox he could have more Xbox time if he was quiet. I'm kidding. I didn't. All right.

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So the goal, what we're doing in our parenting in this particular section,

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Judith, I'll kind of set it up and then I'll let you respond to that. We are thinking about shaping and molding the heart of the child.

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That's really where we started with the podcast. So often we think about rewards. We are trying to manipulate,

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I hate that word, but we're really trying to control a child's actions like we do a dog. If the dog sits, we give them a reward, right?

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So we're looking for positive action and so we'll use a reward to get positive action.

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That's not what we're talking about. Our children are not animals in such a way that we're trying to use

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Pavlov's rule of manipulating them. To produce a certain behavior. Thank you.

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That's a good way of saying it. We're not trying to produce obedience. We're trying to help them understand the evil of their heart and how they can trust in the gospel and trust in Christ to then change their attitudes and motives.

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So that's what we're going for in this particular episode. So that's the goal of this positive reinforcement, this affirmation, rewards, however you want to use it.

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The benefit is to teach our children the wonders and the amazing benefits of godliness, of godly actions.

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And I think in the book she even talks about teaching them a good work ethic, right?

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There's nothing... We want to teach our children to reflect that which is of Christ. So there's a lot of examples,

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I think things we've done in the past, Judith, where we want to look at when our children, we see that they do a good action.

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They do it for the right reasons or they could do it for the wrong reasons and both of those are great opportunities to sit down and talk with them about why it is that they did what they did.

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Right? I'll start with this, the kind of the motivation that, because there's a, there is a tendency here to slip what's in slip into pietism, if you don't know what that is, we'll put it in the notes.

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Pietism, we've written a book on it, done a lot of episodes on it. Pietism is when you are performing obedience, whether it is

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God's given or our own forms of actions of obedience, purely because we think

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God's love and affection and favor towards us will either increase or decrease based upon, excuse me, based upon our performance at the level of that performance.

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Right? So instead of, instead of listening to the promises of God, like in first Peter, when he says everything that we could ever want has already been granted to us by his divine power.

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He can't love you any more than he already loves you because he set his love on you when you were an enemy.

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Right? So what we're not teaching our children is that, Hey, look, God loves you more. God's happy with you or God will reward you because of your good actions.

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Your relationship with the father is based upon grace and mercy, but that doesn't mean there isn't a necessity and a need for our good works because God uses them.

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And that's really what we're trying to teach them and reinforce them is that the joy of loving our father. So I'll say it to this way.

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John 15, Jesus says, my joy can be in you and your joy can be full if you have love for one another.

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And so the, the, the blessings that we receive from our obedience is God's joy. And that's what we want to try and reinforce them.

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So that's kind of the theological heart behind it. And now let's talk about maybe some of the practicality of like, well, what does this look like?

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Um, I don't know if you had any examples or, or things that you were thinking about of how it could be helpful, but when you're thinking about,

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I'll give you some when the kids like we're doing dishes, right. Um, and they've done a really, really good job.

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There are times where even just pulling them in and giving a verbal affirmation of like, Hey, I just want you to know how appreciative

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I am that you really did it. Like you, I could tell you really put your heart into this and you did a,

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I could tell you really wanted to do your best. You could see it in their face of like, wow, that, that, that meant, that meant a lot to me that you would take time to say that.

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Yeah. It shows them how their actions are affecting other people, but in a positive way. Yeah. I've pulled the kids aside before and said, wow, do you realize by doing that you just took such a burden off of me, you know?

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Um, and what a blessing that is. So. Yeah. And then there are times where, um, that could lead to like,

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Hey, you know, I'm really thankful for what you did and what a blessing that was. And so I want to bless you in return.

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Like, I want to give something to you that is special. And then it could be like, Hey, let's go grab some ice cream or, you know,

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I know this, there's this thing that you've been wanting, so I'm going to get it for you. And what it, it's just showing them that, that there's blessings in serving other people, but it's very rare.

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I don't know. I mean, I know some parents will do this. I don't think I can't think of a time in our home where I'll say, if you do this,

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I will give you that. Right. Because that's transactional in nature where, yeah, it's kind of like, you can't really call that a gift because they earned it.

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I have said with, um, with the kids before, especially when they were younger, um, they'll ask to do something that is out of the ordinary and I'll say, okay, that that's a privilege and I'm going to let you do that right now.

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But what I'm looking for after you're done with that privilege is that it's not going to affect your attitude with this, that you're still going to be able to get your work done diligently.

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And so it's almost like setting those expectations, like, Hey, this is a special privilege I'm giving you.

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And I want you, I want to see that you can handle it and that, you know, it won't affect your behavior afterwards.

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And so that, that in a way is almost like freedom is the reward. You have, you have more freedom to do these special things more often if you can show me that you can handle it.

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But that's usually as like, you know, when they're like eight, nine, 10, some maturity level things where you're trying to teach them, um, yeah, you can have these freedoms, but you also have to show me that you can handle them.

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So that, that feels like a natural consequences, but in a positive way type of, this is the only example

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I can think of where it's really like, if you can't do this, then this is, But I feel like that's walking them through more like natural consequences because in life, that's what happens.

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Well, and that's the point. I think it's a, it's a great illustration of giving because that is what we're talking about is the natural consequences of life.

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We use our motivation from God and the love that he has for us to live sacrificially for others.

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But the Bible is very clear that there are, there are blessings that maybe monetarily, but eternally that come with the idea of,

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I'm going to do this because I love you and I love others. Right. And so I think that the, at the heart of the chapter and I really kind of,

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I want to keep circling back to this cause it's so important. We're trying to shape their heart, right? And we can use these types of things, especially when they're super little, like,

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Oh, this action brought this result. And that's what we want them to hear is that there's, we saw an affirm and we want them to understand that it's good to want to do good and to want to obey and to have a good heart work ethic, work ethic, to work hard.

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I will say, Judith, that is when you're in parenting a little child who has a heart that is evil because they're born this way, that you feel like all you do is correct, instruct and discipline and that the weight of that can get so heavy that your child just never gets any positive, you know, and you have to look really hard.

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And I think that's what she's trying to get at in the book. And I would agree with that. If you sit back in your day and ask yourself how many times you said, no, don't stop.

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And then how many times you affirmed and blessed and encouraged, right? And some days it's really hard to find those times to encourage and affirm because they're really not doing, we all have days like that, right?

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Where we ourselves are just, we just cannot get out or maybe it's just me, we just cannot snap out of our bad attitude.

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So you do have to work hard at it. Yeah. I know in days like that, something we had talked about years ago was that even affirming how they reacted to the negative.

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So like, Hey, don't do that anymore. And they responded positively. You stop right there and say, actually, I just want to stop you and say that was a really wonderful response.

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It was honoring, it was respectful and you could see it in their face because what it's doing is,

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Oh, next time mom corrects me or dad corrects me, I think I know how I'm supposed to respond.

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Right? Because it could feel like their kid that whatever direction they walk or step, all they do is face the wall and they start feeling boxed in and they want to get out of that box.

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But then you show them a path and whether it could be, I mean, you could even reward them if you want.

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It's like, you know, I am actually really thankful for what you did. And you're not, you're, the reward is based, they, in other words, they didn't obey to get the reward.

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That's what she's trying to teach. Yeah. It's, you're not telling them about the reward before. That's right. Um, and like, if you respond, right.

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It's more like you are taking the extra effort to look out for all the ways that they are, um, responding to things you guys have been working on, things you guys have been talking about and then going out of your way to say, we've really been working on this and you're just doing such a great job.

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I noticed this change, you know, a couple of weeks ago you might've responded this way and you responded this way and that, that's so honoring to God.

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That's right. Yeah. And those, and that's, that's the part where we, that connection is great.

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Connecting it back to Christ in a positive way. Cause sometimes we can always use God too as kind of the bully like, you know, like, well, you don't want to disappoint, you don't want to disappoint the

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Lord. Don't make God sad. Yeah. And it's like, well, technically he loves us unconditionally and his favor and grace and mercy are upon us.

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That doesn't mean he, he just wants us to live however we want though. He wants us to reflect who he is.

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So I'm preaching through Peter, so I'm always thinking about what I'm preaching through and Peter. Um, he gets done describing who they are and their identity is that they're, they're chosen people, people, a

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Royal, a Royal nation and are the Royal priest, a Holy nation. And then he, he, he says that because of who they are, the way they think about life changes.

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He's like, actually let your good conduct, your obedience before unbelievers, let, let them see that.

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And they might even call what you call good evil, but in the, in the end, they're going to see that it's

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God in you and they're going to glorify God, right? That's really what we're trying to teach our children is that there's, there's something far beyond, far more important than mom and dad's approval.

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It's understanding that there is something glorious and wonderful about being obedient to the

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Lord because it reflects who he is and it's a light. We are literally called to be a light to, to the, to the nations and to the world.

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Now, listen, when they're three, I understand that you're going to want that, but you have to start teaching your children early how to positively respond to Christ in the good news.

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Right. And this is what she's getting at is that as they're learning early on, it might just be,

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Hey, a verbal affirmation or a cookie or something, but as they start getting older and you start having conversations with him, you're going to move towards these conversations about the blessings of the

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Lord and what it means just to give other people the joy of what Christ has given us.

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She does great. Go ahead. Oh, I just, I was just thinking, yeah, yeah. Starting at a really young age to, to talk to them about, um, see what you did.

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And it turned out this way because as they get older, they're not going to be rewarded every time they do something.

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Right. A lot of times they're going to do something right and no one's going to notice or they'll even be attacked for it.

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You know? So just teaching them that it's just another good reason to reinforce, Hey, we're doing this because of what

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God has done for us because who he's made us. And no, you're five year olds. There's no guarantee.

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He's going to look at you and say, Oh, well, good. I feel better now that I know that I've pleased Jesus. He might not even care about Jesus at that point.

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Um, but like we talked about, I can't remember which chapter it was, one or two. We talked about, it really doesn't matter.

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We still are required to be faithful in being the ones who show them that over and over again, whether they seem to care about it or not.

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We need to be faithful in teaching them that over and over and over again.

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Yeah. I mean, how many Christians have experienced their, their parents tried to faithfully raise them in the word they rebelled, they ran off and it was later in life that the truths that their parents had implanted into them is where like,

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Oh, this is why mom and dad said this. It was later that the truth came to life in them. And that's the hope that we're, um, believing here that we want that we want it to take right away, but we believe that it may not take till later.

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And we have to leave that in the hands of the Lord. We're just obligated to do what is right in this particular situation.

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Um, there was, um, as the children start getting older, you know, that five, six, seven year age where you can have real conversations with them.

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She had this, I will pull this out of the book. She had this great illustration of a mom who was trying to teach her.

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And at first I got real nervous when I was reading this. I was like, Oh boy, she was trying to teach her, I think a five or six year old about the fruits of the spirit.

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And so every time he reflected a fruit of the spirit, she would put a little star by that fruit and you know, it was good.

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He was getting some stars, but he wasn't getting all of them. And she was using that as an opportunity to point out when we fail to produce these things that are good and wonderful.

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It reminds us that Christ didn't fail and he produced all the fruits on our behalf.

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And that's where we find our hope and our joy and our, really our sense of security is because he performed where we could not.

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And so she used it to, to point back to the work of Christ, even in the failure, even in the failure to motivate him to keep trying, right?

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It's not, Oh, we want more of God's blessing. It's because of what Christ has done for us and through us, we want other people to experience the same thing because he's forgiven us.

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We want to forgive others. Right. And I love that with the fruit of the spirit because it teaches them that it's more about whether they're obeying or, or doing right, it's, it affects other people constantly.

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That brings it back to how, what you're doing, how it's affecting the people around you, which

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I think is important. Yeah. Well, let, if we just name a few of the fruits of the spirit and think about it, you know, they're all in nature.

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They're not internal. They're not for us. They're for others. Right. So be kind and gentle and meek and merciful.

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You know, right. You start just thinking about really any new Testament command you have where we're supposed to stop sinning.

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But even the sins, when he talks about lusting and lying and being envious and angry, that's all affecting other people.

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That's right. There's no sin that doesn't affect the body of Christ or another person, right? So even if they're a nonbeliever, if it can affect them.

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So this is, um, I recently talked, taught a class on what does it mean to walk by the spirit?

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And when we think about that phrase, it says walk by the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. That's what we're actually trying to teach our children.

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The benefits of walking by the wonder of Christ versus the flesh, which only hurts people because it's selfish and it's self gratifying.

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And when we think about walk by the spirit, we immediately emphasize the commands of Christ. Oh, here's what he said to do. That's not what

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Paul means. He actually points first of all, to what Christ did for us. He's like, he, he, by his own obedience to the death on the cross and obedience to the law, he fulfill what we could not.

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So he starts with the work of Christ. So when you, when you like just to walk by something, the, the, the way, if you were kind of really reinterpreted, it means to like be with inside something that carries you.

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Like for instance, I'm about to go to the office, I'm going to get in the car and I'm going to trust the car to do what it needs to be doing.

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And so that's what it's saying. If you don't, if you don't want to give into the flesh, which has a lot of power, you have to get into something that's more powerful.

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The first thing you talk about is the power, how he forgave you and cleansed you. And then it's the second part of it, which is the power that now lives inside of you.

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So we teach our children that like, Hey, listen, not only do we look to the gospel, we do believe that Jesus hears us.

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He sees us. He lives within us. We often use that in a negative way, Jesus is seeing what you're doing.

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Paul uses it in a positive, like, Oh no, he's with you. Like he was, he's with you when no one else sees it.

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He sees it. And then we point to them. Here are the ways in which God would have us to walk, which is the opposite of our flesh.

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And I think that's not in the book. But I just thought that was kind of a helpful connection to the fruit of the spirit.

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Now as your children get older, man, Judith, I feel like this has been like every day with our children who are older now, we have to help them understand that doing right doesn't always produce the results now that you won't see it.

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Like loving someone through their sin and that friends that they're trying to figure out how to love them and when they get hurt.

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Or even when we do like in the New Testament, you read of people like Stephen who was stoned while preaching, you know, did he receive a blessing and a reward while being stoned preaching the gospel?

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No. But now he's with the Lord. So she does a great job of helping the children understand that there's a delayedness to the wonder of living with Christ to come.

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That can be hard for a five -year -old to say, hey, I know it's hard now, but it's going to be great with Jesus.

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So we're slowly trying to shepherd their hearts to that. But the ultimate aim really is to help them not to trust in this world.

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First Peter says we're sojourners and exiles. Our bodies actually don't belong here anymore.

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So therefore our good actions are for the benefits of those around us. And our relief and joy is coming when we are finally home with the

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Lord. That part gets real when you have teenagers, right?

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Because the teenage world right now is immediate self -gratification, right?

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Everywhere. So, all right. Any other thoughts on that before we go to the last part, the negative part?

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I think a lot is going to come out of this last part because it kind of, it really helps see, put rewards in its clearer position when you start talking about bribes.

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Bribes. What's a bribe, Judith? Talk to us. When you give them something for not doing something or for doing something.

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So if you do this, I will give you this. So it's like they know about it before they're deciding to obey.

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So it's like they can make a conscious decision, okay, if I do this, then I will get that.

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Which is interesting because she talks about how, well, what if the bribe you chose isn't something attractive to them?

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You know, then it's just, it teaches them to obey purely on the outcome of how it benefits them.

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And what we just got done talking about is we're not obeying because it benefits us. I mean, it will, but not, we're not doing it because it benefits us.

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We're doing it because it glorifies God and it benefits everyone around us. And it brings the joy that we're, because ultimately when we give into the flesh, we're trying to satisfy ourselves and we think joy is waiting there.

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And the Bible teaches us that joy is in the Lord. The joy is in Christ through the gospel, right? What we're saying is, okay, if you do those dishes,

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I will give you, you know, 20 more minutes on Xbox. And in their mind, they're like,

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I don't want 20 more minutes of Xbox. That the risk isn't worth the reward. The risk of the work, it's not, the ratio is too off, you know?

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And then she really points this out in the book. And it's true. Cause kids will, you'll see it, kids do this. And so what, what are you then left with?

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You have to up the reward or remove the requirement. Or if you have a super, super strong willed child, like we had one, it doesn't matter what you bribe them with because they are like, no,

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I'm going to die on this hill. And so then bribes really don't work. So then what do you do?

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Exactly. Yeah. And we never, as a family, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. There's probably great ways of doing this. We never really did like allowances where if the kids did all the chores, they would get paid in our, in our, what we try to teach the kids is like,

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Hey, this is our home. And when we serve and we do our chores, it actually, it's for the family, it's benefiting the family.

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It's all of us doing our part. And we all kind of chip in. And, you know, we used to have a signed like, all right,

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Hey, you got the bathroom or whatever. And now it's like, Hey, look, we got to get the kitchen clean. And I, my heart actually does well.

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Some nights it's just nuts and they argue and it is their centers. It's like, can we just get along?

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But it encouraged my heart. It was like, Hey, who wants what? Like, okay, I'll do the counters. You do that. And they're all pitching in and there's no, like, we didn't say,

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Hey, this is what you get at the end. It's just, they understand there's like a joy of working together. This needs to get done. This is our home.

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We all take care of it together. That's right. Because what ends up happening with a bribe is that in the end, your kid will do something and they will always put their hand out at the end.

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Like the only reason they did this was that you're going to give them something. And again, we're not saying paying for chores is wrong at all.

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No, no. Cause I know a lot of parents use that to teach their kids how to handle money. So that's what they're really, they're really teaching.

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But yeah, we just chose to do it that way. Yeah. So yeah, like, yes, there's good, there's good and they're bad.

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So I, I'm not criticizing anybody who's done the whole allowance thing or chores thing. What we're trying to get at is the heart of it is that she has this statement.

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I'm going to just go ahead and steal. This is why you need to read the book because it's really good. In the end, when you use a bribe, when you were saying, if you do what

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I want, I will let you have what you want. Neither one of those is what is at the heart of parenting.

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We're not, that is not teaching a child to know the Lord and what the

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Lord is about, right? We're, we're, we're not doing, we're not transactional in our nature here.

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And it is very much, if you do this for me, I'll do that for you. Which when I was reading that, it reminded me of when we were talking about how a lot of times when we parent, um, it's we parent out of frustration or we're irritated by them or embarrassed.

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Remember we talked about all those things that usually cause us to, um, discipline or punish.

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Um, and that's what this reminded me of. It's just, it's kind of in that same thread of,

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I don't like this. I want you to do this. So if you do this, I'll do that. Um, and completely brushes over and passes dealing with the heart.

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And it seems like a quick fix, but it's going to cost you a lot in the end.

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It's very temporary. Yeah. It's very temporary. And, uh, you know, we've all seen this, you know, parents who are at their wits end, listen, sometimes

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I think I can come across as judgmental. So I want to take a moment here and speak to the exhausted parent who has tried everything they know of out of love, out of exhaustion, out of desperation.

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And they're hearing what you're saying. Like, I'm guilty of that. I'm guilty of that. Listen, we all are. We've been parents for 20 years.

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Everything we have said, we have done so more than one. So this isn't judgmentalism.

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We're just here saying, look, it doesn't work. Like it ended up causing, it took us harder to correct the issue because we created a bad habit in our kids.

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And it is another sign because man, kids are smart of them that they can say, oh, I kind of,

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I kind of see how I can have a little control over my, over my parents. You know, if I get crazy enough, they'll offer me something.

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That's absolutely right. And I think this is different. I don't want you guys to go away from this analyzing every single thing you're doing.

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I mean, when we're in the car and I need my kids to be quiet, I throw a ton of food at them.

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Like, oh, you want a snack? Here you go. You go. Oh, you want, you need a coloring? But you know, that's different. But that's dealing with their frailty.

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Yeah. That's different. That's helping them. That's not saying if you're quiet, I'll give you another snack.

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That's right. You know what I'm saying? So it's not, it's not, I don't want people to go away and just feel like worn down.

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It's asking, you know, like we've talked about from the beginning, just asking yourself questions. That's right. We even use entertainment or even television with educational shows as a tool of like, okay,

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I need a minute to get this done. So we wouldn't just let our kids watch TV all day long. It's like, all right, I'm going to let them watch this particular show at this moment because I need to get these things done.

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The kids didn't know that. It wasn't like, if you behave and sit here, then we'll let you watch this. And it's just those type of things where we're thinking about the frailty, we're thinking about who they are, where they're at in that stage of life.

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And you know, listen, there are times we go out to eat at a restaurant and the kids at the end of it, they'll look at us and they're like, hey, dad, can we, can we get some dessert?

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I'm like, you know what? Sure. I don't know if they can hear that.

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I'm pretty sure they can. Okay. Yeah. Someone just came up our driveway. So that probably means the show is coming to an end, whoever that is that's coming up our driveway.

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But I, our encouragement to you in this is that you're exhausted, you're weary. Just continue to look to Christ, rest in Christ, trust in Christ.

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This is why we encourage you to find another, maybe a couple, please be in a really good church that's renewing and refreshing you.

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Because the, the, the trial, the struggle, it is worth it. It is worth shaping a heart to know and love the

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Lord. And they will never be perfect. They will never fully figure it out. But if you teach them to walk by faith and trust in Christ, then you will always have the joy of reflecting

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Christ back to them. Right. And I think focusing, if you're worried about falling into bribes and making that be a habit,

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I think just focusing, if you continue to look back to the heart and how you're affecting their heart and how you're prepping their heart for obedience and that kind of thing, it will keep you from the habit of bribing.

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Because I think it's a really easy habit to fall into. And then once you start doing it, you don't even realize it. So just, just asking

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God to help show you and help you slow down in that moment where you might feel a little panicked and you need obedience now, kind of asking him for that direction and that wisdom to pull the child aside and speak to their heart and about their heart instead of looking for a quick fix obedience.

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And a lot of times at first, like especially if you're out in public, that means you leave. And I know,

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I feel like the times that I've been so tempted to bribe is either when

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I'm exhausted, like at home exhausted, um, or I'm somewhere in public and I need them just to obey real fast.

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And so just understanding as I go into the store, especially if the child is having a day, a week, month where they're really pushing limits, you go into the store with the expectation knowing that you might have to leave and be prepared to leave, um, in order to take them out to the car, address their heart, reset.

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If it works out great, you go back in together. If it doesn't, you go home. Um, so yeah.

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And just realizing that that it's worth it. Like she says, it is, it's really worth it. We're sorry if you heard all of that.

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I hope you heard mostly Judith, we got dogs growling and Hey, you know what, this is a podcast about the home.

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We're at our kitchen table. It's wild around here. So, well, thank you for listening. Hopefully you're encouraged.

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Um, and, uh, just keep reminding yourself that Christ is at work in you as he has at work in your children, refresh, renew yourself in the gospel so that you have the energy to love and care for your children.

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And you know what? Talk to other parents, talk to parents who have older children, ask them how they survived.

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We are doing this because it matters and that's the thing about it. It's important. And they left.

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And that's a good reason for us to close down this podcast. Everything pets heads are falling off and all right.

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We'll call it a day. Hey, thank you for listening. I hope this is encouraging to you and Lord willing, we'll have another episode for you on chapter four next week.