Matthew 24 part 2

And just like that, ladies and gentlemen, we are live. My name is Jeff, and I am one of the pastors of Covenant Reform Baptist Church, and I'd like to welcome you all to Open Earth Theology. I also have a YouTube channel called My Two Cents with Jeff Rice, that's Cents with a Z, and I am the co-owner of Post Tenderbreast Lux Bible Rebinding, and I'm here with my good friend Brayden.

Brayden, why don't you introduce yourself, brother?

Yeah, I am Pastor Brayden of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho. It's a blessing and a privilege to be able to preach Christ crucified, as it is always a good time to do such. So I look forward tonight as we continue in Matthew chapter 24, but I also own a YouTube channel or part of a YouTube channel called Reformed Ex-Mormon.

I hope that there are some LDS people that might be watching this tonight. As we can see, Christians, two Christians, me and Jeff, dialogue over the Bible and hopefully present the gospel to anybody that would be listening tonight.

Yeah, so for those of you that may not know, me and Brayden are Christians, and there's a lot that Brayden and I agree about, but there's going to be some stuff in Matthew 24 that we don't see eye to eye with, and no matter how hard I kick at him, he just doesn't get it, right?

No matter how hard he kicks at me, I just don't see how he's seeing things. And I was speaking to a guy that I work for, my old boss, speaking to him a couple of weeks ago, and he mentioned how he's been watching here and there, and he really likes Brayden.

He liked the fact that me and Brayden can get on here and disagree, and there's no sparks flying. He said that more Christian dialogue needs to be done this way. And if you paid attention earlier, as Pastor Brayden was saying, we kind of got into a dust storm with some Mormons, and so we're hoping that next week, instead of finishing Matthew 24 or doing a little bit more than what we're doing tonight, we'll be able to have a debate, whether it be a one-on-one debate or a two-on-two debate with some Mormons.

So we'll be praying about that, and it'll be fun. Something that we definitely want to do is host debates.

Absolutely.

But also, if it doesn't pan out, we always got something coming. Brayden's not working next week, and we will continue Matthew 24, and then we'll kind of look at Matthew 25 to see where we are there. And I think we decided to go to Book of Revelation afterward.

Yeah, and we can always pop around in Revelation. That doesn't necessarily have to happen, but however it needs to go, yeah. Hopefully, we can throw in some debates.

Yeah, that'd be great.

It's funny, and I did want to just quickly remark on that whole Mormon dust cloud that we were talking about earlier. Both Jeff and I view anything that is unbiblical, that teaches a false god, that therefore is an idol, and it doesn't deserve any worth.

We see God destroy idols all the time in the Old Testament, and you see Jesus Christ going into the temple, casting out people that had changed his house into a robber's den. And so the reality of these things is that that was a picture that was posted by Haps, another host of open-air theology who wasn't able to be here tonight with us.

But that's just the reality of it is idols deserve to be destroyed. And so if you are LDS, you watched this, and you saw that post, please, if you want to debate us, we would be more than happy to have an open, courteous, and kind dialogue with you over that stuff.

Preterist and Idealist Approaches to Matthew 24

All right, so as we get in, I thought maybe it would be really good to start off with how we're coming at this in a way of interpretation. So I take a preterist view of Matthew 24, so I would say all Matthew 24 is in our past.

So the word preterist, preter is Latin for past. And so if you are a Orthodox Christian, you are a preterist. So there's different ways to view eschatology in terms of the millennial. So you have premillennial, you have amillennial, and then you have postmillennial.

If you ho to one of the millenniums, you are Orthodox. You believe that Jesus Christ is coming again in the future. And so if you ho to one of these three Orthodox views, premillennial, amillennial, or postmillennial, and you're also a preterist, that means that you don't believe that Jesus physically came back in 70 AD.

You believe that he came back in judgment against Jerusalem, not that he physically came back in a second appearance, a second coming to judge the living and the dead. We see that take place in Matthew 25.

And so my view is that as a amillennial, postmillennial, in between, trying to figure it out right here. So I believe that we are in the millennium right now, right? And that at the end of the millennial, Jesus is going to come back.

But the subject of the matter that I believe we're looking at tonight has already taken place. And Brayden will state where he stands on this.

Yeah, so I would say, so my interpretive principle that I usually intend to hold to is idealism. I would call myself a redemptive, historical, modified idealist with big terminology in that way. Just because I see something as being fulfilled in the past, it doesn't mean that to me, I think all the text, therefore, has to be fulfilled in the past.

I would say that Matthew chapter 24 verses 3, well, verses 1, of course, verses 1 all the way to verse 28 is definitely 70 AD, is definitely preterist in that way that it is speaking about a localized event.

And then I see an interesting thing that takes place, which I'm sure we'll talk about it today. So I won't turn there and read it. But Luke chapter 21 and the account of the Olivet discourse as well. I see an interesting phrase that takes place that seems to be in between verses 28 and 29 in Matthew's account that Matthew doesn't record for us.

That leads me to think that verse 29 is taking place throughout the Gentile age. Throughout these last 2000 years, we are seeing this idealist verse take place. And then in verse 30 to 31, we see the second advent of Christ.

I would also implore what I would call the knowability in this text versus the unknowability in this text. And that's how I find my dividing lines in here. I see there's things that are warnings to the disciples that are known, that are avoidable and are visible and therefore are avoidable.

You can flee to the mountains for those things. And then I see things that are seemingly unknown of that day and hour. No one knows.

And verse 36.

And so that's how I divide this. The scripture up is what Christ is answering to the apostles of questions, the disciples questions in verse three, because they are putting it all into one day. And Christ is saying that these things actually play out throughout the course of time.

But much of it is fulfilled in 70 AD. So in that regard, I'm a partial preterist, but not to the extent that Jeff is by any means.

Yeah, yeah. So I would say it was a three, three and a half year marker, 66 AD to 70 AD, like midway 70 AD versus a one day. I'm not sure if that's what you meant by it. But I look forward to that verse in Luke.

I don't know which verse you're talking about. I didn't turn to it to pre study.

Yeah, no doubt.

I'll just let it hit me when it hits me. And you know what? If you can change my mind. Hallelujah. Hallelujah.

That's right.

I know that. You know, I don't claim to be the know it all, but I know it all right.

You know more than you think you do.

Yeah.

All right.

So we are looking at the Olivet Discourse. Right. I mean, all of it. This course starts in Matthew chapter 21. We figure we don't have, you know, we can't get your attention that, you know, to go through all the way to 21.

So we just thought we'd start in 24 and we see in verse 24. We're just going to kind of I don't remember exactly how far we got. We think we got to verse 14. I'm just going to kind of I'm going to kind of walk through it real quick.

And if you want to stop me at any time, stop me.

Okay.

Would you like me to stop you if I disagree with something or just disagree?

Or if you want to add something in, I'm just going to kind of cover 14 real quick.

Okay.

And just kind of sum it up. Unless you want to do that.

I mean, I think that that sounds wonderful.

Okay.

So we have Jesus leaving the temple. That means that he was in the temple. He was given the seven woes and he was going away when his disciples came and pointed out to him the buildings of the temple.

And he noticed the buildings of the temple. And he answered them being the disciples. You see these things. Do you not? Truly, I say to you, the disciples, there will not be. There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be torn down, thrown down.

And we see that absolutely took place in 70 A .D. And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately saying, tell us, when will these things be? What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?

And they're asking him, what will these things be? The nearest antecedent would be the destruction of the temple. This is what he was speaking about. And they're asking him the sign of his coming. See, this is what tells me that Matthew 24, when it talks about his coming, is not a physical coming because he's physically in their presence and they're asking for his presence.

The Greek word here is parousia. And so I believe that that they understand that his coming would be this ushering in of the kingdom of what they would have believed to be the kingdom of Judah. You know, like we see in the book of Acts, I think it's restoring the kingdom of Judah or restoring the kingdoms to Israel.

And so they were expecting this coming to be him coming as a conquering king. And so not his physical coming, like he's going to disappear, he's going to go away like they didn't understand that he was going to die, go away and then come back.

Their understanding was his coming was bringing in his kingdom. And then Jesus answered them, you see these see that no one leads you astray. For many will come saying I am Christ and they will lead many astray.

And we pointed out that there's no really, you know, outside of going to extra biblical sources, we don't see any anyone in the Bible that's actually professed that they were Christ. But there is definitely people teaching of a different Christ.

And there is definitely Antichrist teaches. We see that first, John two, four and the second, John seven. Second, John seven would have been. I mean, I can't think of the guy's name for some reason, but he was teaching a false Christ.

It was kind of early Gnosticism. Serentis, Serentis is his name, Serentis. Yeah. And then verse six says, and you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. So right here would be the birth pain. So so we're going to read about the birth pain.

So the birth pains will be wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes. So verse six, and you will hear of wars and rumors of wars and see that no one see that you are not alarmed for these things must take place.

But the end is not yet for nation will rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. But these are but the birth pain. So the birth pains is wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes.

It says then they will devour you up. So, excuse me, they will deliver you up to tribulation. Now, if you look right here in verse twenty three, it's speaking again of what takes place in twenty three.

And I think also in night sixteen or twelve, I think it's chapter sixteen. Now it's ten. Yeah. Yeah. In chapter ten, verse twenty eight, it says, do not fear for those who kill the body, but cannot kill the son.

Now, where am I at? That's a good verse. OK, yeah, right here, right here. I found it. Behold, I am sending you out as wolves. And so this is when Jesus sends them out. First, he said, beware of man, for they will deliver you over to the courts and flog you in the synagogues and you will be dragged before governors and kings.

So this is something that Jesus has already warned him about. So in Matthew twenty four, he's reiterating it. We see it in Matthew chapter twenty three. Also, he's in verse thirty four speaking to the scribes and Pharisees.

He says, I will send you prophets and wise men, scribes, and you will kill them, crucify them. Some you will flog, persecute in your own town. So this is what he's telling his disciples here. Is he is he is he is he's telling them that nation will rise against us.

So verse ten, and they will deliver you up, speaking to the disciples, to tribulation and put you, the disciples, to death. And you, the disciples, will be hated by all nation for his namesake. And then many will fall away.

And we see this taking place in the book of Hebrews. Many will fall away and betray one another. False prophets will arise and lead many astray. We see this in Acts 20, Galatians, Titus one dealing with the Judaizers.

And because of lawlessness will increase the love of many will grow cold again. Code again, the book of Hebrews. You see this being played out. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Now, if you're saying that that you and I have to endure to the end to be saved, we deny Ephesians chapter two verses eight, nine.

Right. That that makes that this verse is works based in order for us to be saved. Salvificly, we have to endure to the end. So this endure to the end is saved. Here is not salvificly. It's being saved from the coming judgment that's coming upon Israel.

Then he says in this in the gospel of this kingdom must be proclaimed through all the world as a testimony to all nations. And then will the end come. So the word world here is oikomene. It means a a the inhabited earth, Jerusalem, I mean, a Rome inhabited land.

It was a kingdom over 10 nations. And so these 10 nations would have been the inhabited earth. And it also says and then the end will come. What end? Look back at verse three, the end of the age. And so this is where him and I would disagree.

So I believe in verse 14 where it talks about then the end will come. It's speaking about the end of the age, which would be what I would see as the Jew did the Judaic age ending and ushering in the new covenant age.

So covenant age ending new covenant age. Of course, I believe that there was an overlap of a period of 40 years where the new covenant and the old covenant, the two ages were on the earth together. But once Jerusalem fell, only the new covenant age continued.

And I think that's where we left off at.

Yeah, for sure.

If you have any disagreement.

Well, so I would have a disagreeing on the age. And I guess maybe let me ask a quick question on that. So you're saying that you would link the end of the age of or the end of the age that's in verse three to the end that's mentioned of in verse 14.

Is that correct? Correct. OK, because it's the nearest antecedent when it speaks about the end.

Right, right, right, right. I see what you're saying. And then just to just to kind of back up to just real fast in verse three, when it says the sign of the of your coming.

Are would you say that the three has a sign of the coming?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Good question.

What would be the sign of your coming?

Yeah. Yep. Yep. What would be the sign of your coming? Is that being asked by the. And this is a genuine question I have for you and how you view this. Is that the disciples asking it in a way that they see it as a bad thing that's about to come or a good thing that's about to come?

I would say a good thing because they're looking for him. Of course, I don't think they're. I think they're asking a question and he's answering it. But then the answer is given is not the answer that I was looking for.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but but but but but but the answer that he gives them is actually the true answer to their question. So they're looking for him to like if you go to Acts chapter one, let me go there real quick.

Let's see. Yeah. So verse six. So when they had come together, they asked him, Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom of God? And so and so when they're asking him, when will be the sign of your coming?

They're asking him about the restoration of the kingdom of Israel. Yeah, yeah. Right. And so but they're not understanding that the restoration of the kingdom of Israel is the establishment of the new covenant.

I agree with that. Yeah, I agree. You see what I'm saying? I agree. And so I think that that go ahead. Sorry. No, no. I was going to say, I think that that's where I then will apply some later text here a little bit to that, that the sign of the son of coming of the son of man or the sign of your coming.

Because I do think that how they're viewing things is that, OK, the temple is going to be destroyed. The end of the world is happening and therefore the kingdom is going to be established. And they're they're they're wanting their they the the apostles and the disciples are really wanting a high seat in that kingdom.

Right there. They're looking for it. Oh, yeah. Let's let's get it kind of a thing. They're kind of greedy in this way. Yeah, I would. I would just say, and I don't know what your thought is on this. The inverse three, that word and is a different word in the Greek than the word and in verse 14.

Let me pull it up. Yeah, I want to say that verse 14. It's I don't I'm bad with Greek, so forgive me, but Taylor or Tolos.

There's times I'm better with Greek than I am of English, but I can now read King James, man.

I had to try to read it at a camp here recently doing that Christian camp.

I think I'm going to start reading the old King. I mean, the new King James.

It's probably better. I can't do it, though. But I want to say verse 14 is Tolos or Taylor's. And then in verse three, it's Cylindia or something along those lines. And it would be my understanding that in verse three, that that that word consummation is a traditional language for marriage.

And then verse 14 is not the traditional language for marriage. And so I would I would separate those things, in my opinion, on how I see that. And I think that the reason that they're asking that question regarding marriage is because of Christ's parable, the marriage feast in chapter 22, which there will be more language implored like this in the sense of marriage tradition later on in this chapter.

And so I would not apply the consummation of the age or the end of the age to verse 14 quite yet. I would apply it later on in this chapter as far as the linking of the two go.

Yeah, let's see. So, yes. So in verse 14, I mean, it can be translated uttermost final ending by one's continuing.

Let's see. So like when when when you're talking about verse 14, about that being the end of the temple age or the end of the of that sense, I agree with you because I do think that's the end of the temple.

And I think that that's fitting for how Daniel chapter eight, verse 17 through 19, how when Daniel receives a prophecy about a ram and a goat that's about Antiochus the fourth, they it said that this is the end that's taking place.

And it's talking about a day that Antiochus is going to come in and desecrate the temple set of idols. That that's how the Jewish mindset was that if something happened to the temple, it's the end. And so I do agree that Matthew chapter 24, verse 14 is absolutely speaking about 70 AD temple.

So the reason I think the end is two different words. Yeah, it's because of the the where you have the end of the age verse like it actually says the end of the age. And age is kind of like the the main point of emphasis here.

Yep. Aeon. And then down here, the emphasis is on end. Yep. And so that's why I think the the word the completion of the Aeon, which would come to the same meaning of ending, as we see in verse 14. I would say it's just like this verse is not so much highlighting that the word end as it is.

But that in the four verse 14, it's actually not highlighting Aeon, but it's highlighting the end that's coming, which would have been the Aeon.

So I see what you're saying on that. I disagree on that. Right. And the thinking on that is that because the first question that the apostles asked, I think is still being answered by Jesus.

Well, I think there's three questions, but one answer.

Yes. I think that there's three three questions that they all think is one answer. But Christ is giving them three answers. That's what I think.

So no matter how hard I kick, I mean, just like that.

It's going to be like that meal, man.

And I and that's that's that's how I can show me another.

I mean, because you cannot just introduce something in a story and it not have an end to see it. Absolutely. Absolutely. So the nearest end to see that when it's speaking of the end, what would have to be the verse 13 and also verse and then verse three, which verse 13 is, again, in my opinion, is still speaking of the same man.

Let's see what it has. I think verse 13 and 14 is definitely speaking of the same end. And I think that that is definitely speaking of the temple being destroyed. I do think, though, that that the disciples being.

But again, I showed you in Hebrews chapter nine. Yeah. That the temple was a symbol for that age. Absolutely. Yeah. When that temple fell, it was the end of that age. Right.

And so where I'm going with that, though, is that I do see a two age model that takes place in the New Testament. And that being said, there are times there are are places like First Corinthians chapter 10, where the language of all the times we're pointing to this time, that that this this period of this thing happening is coming to an end.

This this age is now ending for the temple. Right. There is that language that's undeniable. But I think that in other areas, Matthew chapter 12, Matthew chapter 13, I believe it is. There are several occasions that the language of this end or this age and that age, it uses that over and over and over again.

And so when I when I see the consummation, the completion, the end of the age, I think that the nearest antecedent for that kind of language they're using is two chapters prior in the marriage feast. I think that that's that that's how that's why I think that the apostles or the disciples are asking this genuine question is because of what Christ just told the Pharisees.

So so you think the the age to come is the consummation of a I think that that is the eternal state. Yeah. OK, so what do you do with Matthew 12, 32? Yeah. Whoever speaks against the whoever speaks a word against the son of man will be forgiven.

But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age or the age to come. Yeah. So in the consummated age. Yep.

So so somebody if somebody blasphemes the Holy Spirit today, there is no forgiveness for them.

And in fact, in Mark's account how it's worded. Yeah.

So Mark's Mark's account words it that way. It says that it's the eternal sin. So so I think Mark keys this age and the age to come as an eternal thing that that that the this age and the age to come surmises.

So you want to say that this is a sin that people can commit in the eternal state?

No, no, no. Absolutely not. I'm saying it's something that they can only commit today.

And if they do, there's no forgiveness for it. You heard it. You heard it from yourself.

Yes. In the in the age to come, which I'm saying is the eternal state. There there is no sin at that point. We're all glorified.

So we of course, like I would agree with you there. I just think that your idea of the age that like, like, like, you know, I don't think anyone has ever read that, you know, understood it that way without someone.

And I just did in a suit and wearing glasses telling me to believe.

No, I do. I do think that that that because I think that they're asking all these kind of things based off of what was just talked about. Right. So. So, Jesus, the very first thing, when will these things take place?

Christ has said to the Jewish people, your house is being left to you desolate. And then he says that there's not going to be a stone left upon another. Right. I think that that is directly asking, when is this going to happen?

And then they say, and the sign of your coming. I do think that that's them talking about the the kingdom of God, which Christ is pressed very hardly through the means of parables in this in the previous texts, whether it is the parable of the vineyard or the parable of the father and the two sons, or if it's the fig tree or whatever the example is, he's been pressing that issue of the kingdom very, very vigorously.

And so I think that that's their reasoning for asking that kind of a question, which you and I would agree with saying that the kingdom is now, but not yet. Kind of in a sense that that that Christ set up his kingdom, it's still unfolding.

Right. It's still going about. Yeah, absolutely. And and so I think that that that's question two.

And then question, I wouldn't say that the, you know, the full weight of the kingdom is on Earth because the kingdom is established. Jesus is not on Earth on the throne. He is on the throne of David in heaven at the right hand of the father.

I agree. But but his but his kingdom on Earth would be the visible representation is not four walls. And you can say, look, there it is. And knock on the door and enter. There's no one can see it or enter unless they're born again.

The entrance into the kingdom is to be born again. And then you're born into the kingdom, which is the church. And so the church, I would say, is the physical manifestation of this kingdom. And then and that's why I lost people don't understand us because they can't see what we're a part of.

You can't see it unless you're in it. You got to be born in it. They have not been born again. They have not been born again. So and so I agree that there's this already not yet aspect of the kingdom.

And we're waiting, you know, but yes, but still that the new covenant age, the kingdom, the bride of Christ is on Earth. You know, right now we mourn for, you know, longing to be with our bridegroom.

Which will come. Absolutely. Amen to that. Absolutely.

Well, that's the consummation of the age.

I mean, I mean, I don't believe that this and I don't believe that this age is ever going to end. But I believe that the age has already started. I don't believe that there's some future age that we're looking for.

We're already in this. The consummation. We're already in the age that's going to be consummated.

So you say that we're in the age to come right now. Is that is that correct?

But the age to come is not fully consummated. And once we get into Revelation chapter 21, it'll really it'll really show roots.

That's going to be years down the road, Jeff. Well, you know, for the long run.

That's right. That's awesome. Yeah. Just.

Go ahead. Yeah, let's continue on. No, you're good. I was going to ask another question. Let's keep on going.

I mean, if you want to ask one, that's fine. But, you know, well, I was just going to ask.

So what what's your because in that thinking, what's the the because. It was just a couple of verses before when when Christ has talked to about this, the Sadducees Sadducees Sadducees Sadducees Sadducees.

About who is this woman going to be married to and in the kingdom and God are essentially what it says that in this age that people are given in marriage, but in the age to come, they are not essentially so.

Yes. So I would say that that would be the part that's not yet. OK. Yeah, because we're still physical bodies were on an earth, you know, the two kingdoms are still, you know, the kingdom of God and there's the kingdom of the world that's being put under his feet.

Right. You agree with that, correct? Mm hmm. All right. So so would you hope to two kingdom theology? No. We got a lot to do, don't we?

Define two kingdom theology then for me then.

Well, you have. Well, man, that's another show, man. Let's put a pin in there because.

OK, because I haven't studied enough to say that I believe in it or I don't believe in it, to be honest with you.

Most postmails don't believe in it, but I think that's what like one of the arguments from it really got me moving away from postmail because we are, you know. Again, if I get on it, man, we probably.

I mean, you got the king, you know, like just for instance, Romans 13. OK, right. You see the you know, there's there's certain things delegated to the church and certain things delegated to to governing authorities.

And so that's another kingdom and that's being put under. We believe that that's going to eventually be put under the feet of Christ. So the kingdom of man versus the kingdom of God. But there's a lot that goes into it.

OK, I see. I was thinking something completely different. OK, yeah, let's keep on going. Matthew chapter 24. We got to come back to that Sunday.

Yeah, well, I'm definitely open for I just don't think we'll have time tonight. No, I love it. Verse 15. So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken by the prophet Daniel standing in the holy place, let the reader understand and then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Let those who are on a housetop go down and take what is in. Let not go down and take what is in his house and let the one who is in the field not turn back and take his cloak. And as alas for women and who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days, pray that your Sabbath will not be.

I mean, pray that your flight will not be in Sabbath. Well, let's let's stop there. Maybe I should have stopped earlier. So what what is the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel, the prophet? And has this happened in your opinion?

Yes, it has. When did it happen?

66 to 73 AD, specifically 70 AD. But that is the outpouring of the house being left desolate. That crisis just mentioned in verse 38 of 23 that behold, your house is being left to you desolate, which then after that Christ, as far as bookends go, Christ enters into the city, having the Hillel Psalm from 118 sung to him by the people.