Cultish: Growing Up in a Polygamist Cult, Pt. 1

Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the king of the Colts. My name is Jeremiah Roberts I am one of the co -hosts here

I am always joined by my trusty sidekick and super sleuth up in your super secret headquarters in Harriman, Utah How are you doing, man?

I'm doing well. I just ate an amazing sandwich that my wife made me and it was delicious So I couldn't be doing better I guess right now.

Awesome. You're in peak flow Sandwich state so we have a very short time to get you a peak performance before you have that mid -afternoon crash

So we're gonna jump right into it. So I am super excited. We are here with Naomi, right?

We're gonna be talking about a subject that's very pertinent to many people. They're really a subject of experiential abuse

First of all, thank you so much for coming on. Oh my gosh. It's a privilege to be here. This is fun Yes, so we're gonna be so again, so let's just jump right into it.

So Spiritual abuse it's a huge topic, you know when we look at We're just talking about right before we started

Recording is that when cultists first started one of the main catalysts for like really driving forces of passion

We're just watching some of those documentaries like Scientology the aftermath. Did you ever see Holy Hell?

No, I haven't. Okay Well, it was very similar to Scientology the aftermath where it showed all these people who are survivors of Scientology You know who are being interviewed by Leah Remini and Mike Rinder and you just saw just how devastating it was the disconnection you know just everything that when they them being labeled suppressive people for questioning

Scientology did or speaking out against it and Just seeing that trauma that was just there just off the get -go.

What did you think about that whole series? we're talking about that right before the Before we start recording here, it was so painful to watch

I mean just having been through my own cult experience and coming out of it

It's something where I mean what I've said to people is I don't wish for anyone to be in a cult or to stay in A cult but it's hard for me to wish for them to exit either

Because it's so painful to leave. Yeah, and so it's like, of course I want to help them exit and I want to be there for For when they do and help them through that but gosh without that support when they come out

I just I don't know how people survive. Yeah, it's hard. Mmm. Yeah So I think that what's what you're doing and what we'll kind of ravel just your little bit your story but also what you're currently doing helping people who have come out of destructive cults is

You know, you really there's different vantage points of when you know, people get into destructive cult

Some people are born in it You have people like Steve at Steve Hassan who was recruited in college and Having his whole experience and so usually sometimes we'll deal with cults from a very apologetic standpoint

Looking at what does this cult say about Jesus? What does this cult say about the

Trinity and how do we respond to that very much the the framework that Walter Martin brought out? But specifically

I think this conversation is important because a lot of people who come out of spiritually abusive environments it's very difficult for them to put the pieces together and even if they are

Christian to even get plugged into a healthy church or even really there's a lot of Baggage that comes just with a language barrier of just basic My t -shirt bad theology hurts people a lot of basic terms that we would take for granted probably has a lot of Baggage and triggering words that would come along with that whether it's like heavily you think about someone

Talking about God told me this we're talking about Revelation someone speaking on behalf of God Someone who grew up for example in the

FLDS somebody who You know looked at Warren Jeffs who said he was speaking on behalf of God, but was also abusing young women who are underage someone coming out of that is probably going to have a lot of issues with The Revelation of God and what

God tells someone so there's layers in which and how to deal with that you that's that's kind of You would have really just your experience would really resonate with that, correct?

Oh, yes, absolutely and that's such a significant piece of it is Yes, we want people in a healthy church community, but that in and of itself, what does that mean?

What is a healthy church community? How do I even know what qualifies a healthy church community? Like what am I looking for?

Yeah, so even that statement is loaded for someone who's come out of a cult. They have no idea where to start Yeah and if they're gonna start somewhere they're most apt to start some places drastically different from what their experience had been and Depending that's not actually good either

That's where we can land, you know in more new -age practices depending or we could head into a progressive Christianity So it's not that's not necessarily a good way to gauge either.

Oh, this is really different. So that feels safe So that's gonna be okay that also that's not a way to constitute a healthy church, right?

No, exactly. So let's just kind of jump into I want to keep people Understand because like what you're doing right now is really your passion and really there's a lot of weight that comes behind it so We did a series last summer

With a good friend of yours John Collins on William Branham and we really went into the historical origins and talking about all the things are happening and with Prohibition in the 1920s leading up to his relationship with Jim Jones if you guys are new to the podcast definitely check that out

But now just tell everyone Let's talk a little bit just about your story and actually before I do

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You'll you also support the studio So I got to get that out of the way. Yeah, so just going back into that.

So William Branham Tell us your connection to that cult and just give us an upbringing of your connection of that and how and then and then we'll talk

About how what you're doing now, so I love to hear like let's have everyone hear your story here. Sure.

My dad Grew up in a really tough household. My grandfather was a preacher one of those like cute little white churches you know from back in the day and My but he was not a great man

He was pretty abusive and so my dad had left at a pretty young age went off on his own trying to figure out Okay, what's true?

What's real, you know, like a lot of us do in our lives and in that process came across William Branham's tent revivals

And so I know that he is saying in those a couple of times at an incredible singing voice

I've been offered an opera contract at one point. So it was just something that you know it was kind of his passion at the time and Something happened where it was really close to him

William Branham died in his car crash in 65 where my dad and William Branham had cross paths and Some some inner

Exchange took place where my dad felt that he had kind of picked up the baton so to speak

Yeah, because then William Branham ended up dying well, my dad spent some years kind of on his own pretty isolated reading through the

Bible and reading through William Branham's teachings and Created what he believed was sort of the next layer

We could call it a sort of special revelation to kind of use that incorrectly, but that's what he called.

Yeah So this is not just somebody like your dad gets caught up in a cult this is right at the time and we were talking about this on the phone and you can jump into if you have anything you want anything you want to put in here, but Really?

This is not your dad just so happened to got recruited by a cult But usually when there's severance in regards to the cult leadership

There's always a vacuum that gets filled in and usually there ends up being splintering or fragmenting in regards to who takes over whether it's between Joseph Smith and Brigham Young whether you have it between L Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige You have a different different fundamentals fundamentalist

LDS sex That always is the case. So this is literally right around. It's our

Our series actually wrapped up right around when William Branham died

And so and even then like Jim Jones had made some commentary about that So this is literally your dad in some level believed he was not just Adhering to William Branham's teachings, but he was in a sense his successor or now basically now

The very whatever the version that William Branham was as a prophet now, that's his role then

Right that is that basically you're that scenario there, right? Yeah, so he took that What he had kind of discovered

He took that new information and he went to message churches He went to Brenham churches and they did not treat him.

Well, and he was kicked out of them So they weren't willing to hear what he had to say they weren't willing to partner with him and then because of that he went off on his own and Started his own group started his own sect his own splinter group

Which there's something that I take from that story that I think is so important for churches in general

Yeah, is it matters how we respond to people? Because not that it would have been great if my dad had stuck in a message church either

But it didn't work to just treat him poorly and tell him he was wrong and berate him and shun him and kick him out

It didn't go go. Well, he then went and just messed up 300 other lives somewhere else So I think that's just something

I've taken from that for my my own Christian walk is

When I interact with people, even if I know they're just so wrong or this is unacceptable It's how

I'm gonna approach them matters. Yeah, my approach really matters, right? Yes, because Andrew so I want to give you your thoughts in this too when you're interacting with a cultist and you have plenty of the experience to just being up in Utah is

That usually you'll have like a siege mentality. Well, no, they will have a siege mentality. Well, they will they will take any sort of criticism of themselves or of Their group as Unwarned to persecution and not only that they'll reinforce their cult identity

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Bible Dramatization and please consider supporting our good friend back to the episode and do you have any thoughts or do you have any questions?

so far Yeah, what I find interesting is the story of your your father's reminiscent to me of father divine in the peace mission movement

Essentially even like the new thought movement when it was growing legs in America There's a man named father Jehovah and what he did was go to different churches and he would preach to them

His message right his new revelation, but revelation But then he would get kicked out of those churches and people would think that this man was being persecuted

Therefore he must have some form of truth, right? Like Jesus says you will suffer if you follow me and people will use that to their benefit to try to get control

Over on their individuals and some people would even end up leaving the churches that he would just visit once or twice before he was

Kicked out. So I think what you're saying really does matter right because in first Peter 315 It says separate Christ first as Lord in your heart and then be ready

Right to give answer for the hope that is within you with gentleness reverence and respect. We have to have that In the gospel that we're preaching to even false preachers when they come in So I think the the point that you made there

Naomi is extremely extremely important how we handle these people Really does it can change it can change a lot of different things because you know father

Jehovah He was just kicked out Therefore then he was persecuted got his followers went on and then from father

Jehovah was father divine the peace mission movement and then from there we even get Jim Jones who tried to be his successor

After he died very similar Situations that I'm seeing happening here with your father's life and Even Jim Jones, but I have a question for you

Naomi So when he went off for a couple years in in hermandade, how did he retain relationships with individuals at that time?

Did he not really have any and then he just went out to message churches to go preach his his message to them

That's an interesting question. So I don't have the answers to all those dots Andrew. I'm of the impression that You know and some of this is just from my experience of him growing up He spent most of his day in his room like in his bedroom with books and things and alone

And so I when I picture this I imagine that's what it looked like The timeline of it.

I'm pretty confident. He was already married to his first wife But I can't I can't say that 100 %

I think he was because I know they were pretty young and so just timeline of how and when would this have all happened?

I know that his first wife who was his one real official ex -wife because Polygamous polygamy was a part of the the new revelation that he entered into and so she did not agree with that She believed he was you know being on He was cheating basically

So she did get divorced from him and she is still in a message church

And I know at least one of my older brothers from you know Half -brothers from that relationship is still in the message church.

So I think they were a part of it together and then yeah, he kind of spent time with this new information brought that to light and then the relationship fell apart and I know the

Relationship fell apart right when he and my mom were about to get married So that was going to enter him into a polygamous

Union and that's when she stepped out So I'm pretty sure even though he had a family

He was still spending lots of time on his own and not really super involved which again

Part of that is me taking my experience and assuming it was similar. Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, so we're now William Brandon primary was located in Indiana That's where a lot of his ministry was was your dad kind of in the same location or did he kind of try and relocate?

Elsewhere or where geographically where when he was trying when he was being kicked out and this was happening So he went to different locations and tried different churches

But ultimately he landed between Central, Ohio and Western, New York.

Oh, wow Okay It's a lot more like towards the east coast versus versus, Indiana And so at this time when he is doing this, were you born yet or how old were you at this time?

No, I wouldn't have been born yet So he would have already been kicked out and be kind of starting his own thing

Because the people in Ohio were already apart they were already following him So because I gosh

I have letters that my dad wrote my mom where my brother was like two weeks old And he was being bottle fed

So he was able to go with my dad technically not that that was a great decision Moms and dads out there, but yeah left my mom at home and he just took my brother off to Ohio So I know that they were already set up between those two regions at that point and my brother's older So it would have been a year and a half later that I came along and so people who

Were getting into his group when he's going obviously he was gonna being kicked out But he ended up recruiting people would these be people who?

Had levels of familiarity with Brandon or were there people who are just obscure who end up being allured to him

I mean, what how did what was a demographic of people that became part of your dad's group? There was a mix

He did have people that were a part of the more traditional Message teaching who then jumped ship and started to follow him.

My mom is an example She had gone to I can't remember what denomination of church But it was a just a typical

Christian denomination that she had been in attendance with Yeah, and I mean she ended up then following him.

So we had a mix of both. Mm -hmm. Okay Yeah because you usually like with cults a lot of times there always has to be fresh and continued revelation because there just has to be

Something can you know continuing to kind of keep the fire going to keep people intrigued? so Your dad's a primarily though it was people down some level who had a familiarity

William with William Branham and the message who just We're kind of looking for some continued leadership with with Brandon passing away and then from my understanding, correct?

Mm -hmm. So yes, that would be that would be a part of it Okay, that would be a portion and then different people get brought in just through relationships

You know, you're working with someone and yeah, it's kind of that, you know Evangelistic leaning maybe that someone has and so they're sharing it and through marriage different people came into the group so that was a kind of the expectation is if any of the young ones were gonna marry someone outside the

Expectation was you're gonna bring them in they were gonna convert which is typical again But I think thinking of my mom as an example

There was something in this teaching that was so beautiful for her to hear She had been in a really tough marriage beforehand.

So she was already divorced. He had divorced her He had just had many many affairs and she felt like she was stuck

She felt like well, I had been married even though he was a horrible man and he left me I don't think

I can get married again. She always wanted to be a mom So she's in her mid -30s and thinking this is dream is never gonna happen.

Well along comes a man who tells her Yes, you can remarry and you can do it in this way.

And here's all these other things that come along with it And so it Spoke to something that she had always desired and she was being told now you can have this and the truth is she could have

Had it but she could have had it without all this other stuff And so when you're looking at people like that who are maybe just so hurting and so broken they've been mistreated already and then someone comes along kind of in this white knight sort of way and has the answer and Then you just you so I mean she's kind of perfectly set up for a situation like this

And so yeah, I can definitely see that and so explain maybe just a little bit about the sociological like just the

Infrastructure of like how how did he built when he started recruiting all these people? What did the community look like?

Was it all sort of one commune or they all like live in the same neighborhood? What did that look like?

And what were some of the yeah, tell us a little about that So I'd say closest to same neighborhoods, but maybe not even you know exact same zip code there would be these hubs

I would call it so, you know these with these few towns kind of clustered together But Ohio Central, Ohio was the primary place us being in Western, New York There was a following there

But it was smaller and he would travel back and forth between the two Everyone had their own houses in general like maybe one of his wives would also have like the you know

Mother still living there or something like that, but it wasn't you know, even us There's 16 of us kids in total my brother and I are the you know full siblings both from the same mom

We just lived with her and and one other person who kind of helped with you know Yeah family member like so it wasn't super it wouldn't have been obvious basically to anyone else in the neighborhood

They were able to tell there was something funky going on, right? Which is yeah So just it's just interesting too.

So in other words with wives plural So during his time Was that the primary focus?

I mean, you're I mean it was a it was a polygamous household and and you're that was part of the aspect of your dad

Getting his own version of Branham's teachings But was that something that was his primary orthodoxy if you think about Warren Jeffs?

But doesn't when you think of Warren Jeffs the first thing that comes to mind. Yeah guy was 64 wives Was that his primary message or you know, how would there's other doctrines?

For example where Branham had the serpency doctrine and other aspects of his theology but when it came to the his taking on wives and having children with those wives and you being one of them is that Was that like the central point of what he was trying to try and drive home?

What was having other people try and practice that or is that something he would just allow himself to do as the leader?

Other people were allowed to do it as well There wasn't an expectation that people had to so and that was even taught, you know, this is an option

It's on the table, but you're not required. There's not an expectation. Like however, you want to do it. You can do it Yeah. Yeah, I would say that it was it was certainly primary

But I'm wondering I think I'm saying that from my own experience. It was a huge defining factor for my experience but there were other key teachings such as William Branham was seen to have been

Jesus Christ who had returned for the second time already and Similarly to how the first time

Jesus came, you know, he wasn't well accepted Yeah And so that was kind of parallel to well

Branham came and they sort of quote -unquote missed him the world missed him, right? And so that was Christ coming the second time

Christ is actually coming a third time I'm not saying that's true but yeah, this was the belief Christ was coming a third time and my dad was the fulfillment of Malachi 4

Who was likened to a John the Baptist who was here to herald that final coming? Wow So so what was like the the family and church dynamic like since he's moving from Ohio and New York constantly

How did how did that really look for you? Did you go to church every Sunday because he can't be it in two places at once or did he have someone that would lead?

Church service while he's somewhere else like how did that work? Yeah, so Thank the

Lord. He could not be at two places at once because that is when we got to breathe for a second Yeah, yeah, he was not

He was not easy to have around he was a very high -tempered man and would

Lose it and there was a lot of tension when he was home So he would travel back and forth between the two and when he wasn't with us

We got to breathe. So no, we didn't have a set church experience when he wasn't in town

There wasn't anyone who filled in people would get together and play either message tape So William Branham material or there were recordings of my dad as well

And so they would listen to something and then have dialogue after yeah, but that wasn't Like a weekly requirement.

We did have a point though when I was 14 We're almost for a year straight every single weekend

We drove the four hours between Western, New York and Central Ohio because it was believed something major was happening

I have to think back to when oh you guys that would have been y2k. Mmm. Yeah I remember that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so so I was born in 85 So yeah, I would have been 1999 that was happening. So every single week

Let's explain to for anyone who doesn't know why 2k like I posted a couple times On our cultist social media page

There's an ad from Best Buy that said make sure you reset your clocks in case any of your electronics malfunction

So basically it was this idea that when everything when the year 2000 hit

There's something that had to do with the clocks that somehow was going to short -circuit all the electronics in the world where whether it is hospital equipment

Airplanes, whatever electronics we had at the time. I try to think we're the major electronics in 2000 It was like in banks banks information.

Yeah banks information digital information. Everything was gonna short -circuit. Yeah, we were scared I mean we had flashlights we had all kinds of things right stored up So but it was connected to the spiritual piece.

Okay versus okay The technology is gonna fail but that's God's plan and and this is gonna be the end of the end, right?

and so did your dad sort of have also like this as good like this end times visions like Eschatology because a lot of times cults will use

You know the end of the world crisis returning all these different variables the apocalypse

Revelation if you have someone reads that without really under understanding any context to it. It's scary

I used to read it as a kid and I was terrified. Oh, yeah fear is a great leverage

For someone who wants to be an authority and there's nothing like end times in a religious environment to create that fear so absolutely that was

I would say capitalized on but you guys that might not be a fair word because You've probably heard this.

There are some people out there who they really believe their own delusions You know, they believe and I really think that my dad believed a lot of this.

Yeah, he was I mean It was really in him. He'd get emotional he'd get so and I mean there's maybe mental health stuff there that my brother and I have talked about before but He I don't think it was just oh,

I'm just calculating this and making it up So I can capitalize on it. I mean it's not and for capitalizing, you know

There's a few things usually people want in that regard It's I'm thinking about Jay Warner Wallace where he says it's the same as you know, why someone commits a homicide

They either want power. They want sex or they want money. So with my dad, it wasn't really money

It would have been the other two. So We I mean he wasn't well off, you know, he was fine

He made it but it's not like he was well off. We weren't well off, you know low middle -class Maybe barely crossed the line of that.

So I don't think this was something where he was He was not believing it himself, yeah, but so yeah,

I just wanted to clarify that yeah Yeah, I think it's a good point because we tend to forget that we're both, you know body and spirit, right?

Like there's a real spiritual realm around us that can really affect us a lot of the times

We just like to think it's just purely psychological manipulation coming from some type of cult leader But they themselves like when your dad was doing his little hermit thing for two years

He very may well have experienced something something very may well of could have communicated to him

You know that could have tricked him I mean, it's it's a hundred and ten percent possible in the world that we live in So that's just what

I think well and based on the stuff that we saw growing up in our house and things like that We don't necessarily have to really go there.

But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if something did talk to him Mm -hmm. I mean, it's a excellent opportunity for the enemy to start talking

Yeah, this opens the door wide open for him to do that, right? And so your dad There's emphasis of his theology.

There's a polygamous spin To Bram's teaching and him believing he on levels.

He was the successor So you've got you have one full brother and then how many I don't know what the appropriate term is

Like other people who are like from you know What's the appropriate term like other brothers and sisters would not have brother half -sister half -brother half -sister.

What's the appropriate term? So you guys can go ahead and say that yeah, I would have been really bad if I had called them half -siblings

It was like just your brothers and sisters I would have been like really offensive right and I would have probably gotten spanked for that Right, like, you know, you fully own them.

They're full siblings. Sure But yes technically half -siblings and I mean funny because we actually had to call them cousins whenever we would be together because we couldn't

Actually say that they were siblings. It was illegal, you know polygamy is illegal. So that's gonna be weird though I mean like I'm thinking about I'm from a large family and it's like no, that's my sister

That's my brother. But if I if I constantly in public's had to say, oh, that's my cousin, you know

But then but between but you could do it with all your other half -siblings But then with your actual brother you could say it was your brother.

Mm -hmm But the other ones that you could have someone right next to you like oh, this is in public Oh, this is my cousin and this is my brother, right?

Would you be in that sort of situation or like yeah It was weird. And I mean we lived we were my brother and I would see it's just so automatic my brother

I can be like which one? Yeah Right The full one. I don't know. Yeah, so my brother and I we were the only two siblings in Western, New York So we didn't run into that as often as maybe the others had but the others were also

I think homeschool We were in public school, which is a whole different ballgame So yeah, it was interesting but when they'd come visit for the summers

Yeah, I'd be like these are cousins and it really actually furthered the divide between all of us.

Mm -hmm There's language is important, you know, it's powerful Yeah So when you're calling someone your cousin and you only see them a few times a year

You don't really feel like you're that related. Yeah, it's pretty distant. Mm -hmm. Yeah, that's no

I totally get that and so like what was the Sociological demographic where a lot of times cults will like isolate you from the outside world and there's no contact with the outside world

There's there's people who grew up in environments like that if you think more like FLDS But then you have people who grew up for example in the

Watchtower Bible and track society where they're still involved They're going for example to a public school, but they're still kind of awkward and they can't fit in all of a sudden

It's like their birthday but they can't they don't celebrate a birthday and Other people may sort of have but other people having birthdays and they're just a kid like they want to fit in And so there's areas and you kind of grow up as sort of like the black sheep

You know on the outside on the outskirts and then you have other people who are completely isolated as well

Like for you growing up like what was your what was it like for you? Were you just it was nothing but your cults group or did you go to public school?

Or do you have relationships people in the outside world or how did what did that look like? It was messy.

So we my brother and I went to public school and My mom actually worked for the school.

So she was the assistant to the superintendent of the school district So known throughout the whole school district.

Yeah, and Kind of a public in a way within the school district because of her role

So there was this extra pressure of we have to be we have to be really careful Like I have to be really secretive.

I have to be very diligent. I'm On guard all the time Just making sure that I don't slip and make a comment or because one my mom's supporting her family

So we can't ever lose her job to what's going on with my dad I know that he's not supposed to be doing that but I don't understand why because I'm young and So there's just a lot of at stake there's high stake so I'm going through public school

I'm You know in band. I'm in chorus my you know, my brother's in theater like we're doing all this stuff

But we have this whole secret life So it's just very this duplicitous experience where it's like I have to compartmentalize all this over here and keep all this over here

But I look different now My brother didn't have that so much but he was able to pretty much dress normal That's not always the case in every group.

But for in ours he could for me. I mean it was a long skirts It was the uncut hair. It was the you know, no ears pierced.

No makeup all that kind of stuff So I really stood out especially in gym class. Mm -hmm, you know So long skirt in gym class, like what's right?

Like what's what were yours? What sports did you play? Well, I ended up not playing any which wasn't only because of the skirts

It's also because I'm really bad at them. But I mean that worked out really a struggle I was more of the art student anyway.

Yeah, but I remember in elementary school I was still wearing skirts and finally the gym teacher called my mom was like, you know

That's just she just can't anymore. Like it's just not appropriate. You know, we're jumping around we're doing all this stuff And so what my mom did was she bought me like the widest legged culottes

I've ever seen in my life Which was essentially a skirt that you couldn't find, you know, the leg split in which was no better but so there were like these issues that came up even with the school and in her position where I think at times my parents had to Bend a little bit because of her job

Because we couldn't throw up so many red flags that it's like, okay We she can't even she's not gonna be able to graduate you have to take

Jim to graduate So yeah, it got it got tough at times and it was like this constant game for everyone else of okay

What religion are they because I was taught that I was Christian. I thought that I was the real Christian I was a true

Israel So when people would ask what I was I would say I was Christian and there were times where other kids went home and they

Got upset and they would go to their parents and then like phone calls what happens? They're like, well, she's saying she's

Christian She doesn't celebrate Christmas. We celebrate Christmas. Like I thought I was Christian So it's really confusing not only for me, but for other students was how was it with holidays?

Then were you where you say you say that you didn't celebrate Christmas? Right. What what other restrictions that they have?

Do they feel the same thing kind of like how? They don't sell like Jehovah's Witnesses They don't celebrate 4th of July or anything to do to show your loyalty to a particular state or like birthdays and just kind of like those typical things that the average kid kind of grows up experiencing you think about in America the

American experience as far as Holidays go like what what all the restrictions were there asides from Christmas?

We didn't celebrate anything What about even your birthday even our birthdays? No, no, however

I will say so I remember being maybe like five six and there would be a cake

So there was like a little bit and this is this is part of what can be called life for people Especially when your dad's the leader.

It's sort of like well, what's the whim this year? You know like it can shift so yeah There was a period where we did a little bit and then we didn't probably leave for like seven eight years and then as teenagers

It mattered more to us. So like I remember going to my mom and saying like this is really a bummer

And so starting around that age We were able to pick a restaurant and we could go out to a restaurant for our birthdays

Acknowledgement of it so there was a little wiggle there But definitely never having parties never really doing much with gifts or anything like that.

Yeah Yeah, okay, Andrew. What would uh, I'm sure you got your minds being blown back over there. Yeah, I mean you tell what questions

Yeah, man Yeah what what was kind of like the the gospel in this cult because what

I think of is I went to like a private Christian school till seventh grade and then when I hit eighth Grade going into high school like the thing that divided me from other people was essentially just the gospel

Right, not necessarily the way I looked or how I dressed. It sounds like the gospel almost takes form

Or the gospel can be changed into the sense of form of legalism in order to make a distinct separation

Without it actually being the freedom in Christ that separates You know the the person dead in sin to the person who gets made alive through the

Holy Spirit So what was the gospel in your guys's in this little in this cult here?

So I I think I'm gonna give my initial answer because I actually think it's really important.

I Didn't come out of this thinking much about Christ at all or just had many thoughts about him because it was such a an environment of intense fear and wrath

That that's kind of what you had room for. You know, it was focused on I'm trying to Make sure that when the rapture happens,

I'm included so I'm trying to you know, do good works I'm trying to obey all the rules even though they may change when there's new revelation

And so I'm so focused on my behavior and I'm not getting in trouble That I'm not really even

I don't really have the space to be concerned about who Jesus is so just and I think that's important to note for people who grow up in these authoritarian types like doomsday cults like this is

It's not maybe that they're not taught Jesus at all But it's probably not what they remember when they leave because there's it wasn't how

Jesus in my world at that time, even though it's gonna be funny to say because it's the exact opposite Jesus was not who was gonna save me.

It was my dad It was my dad who was gonna save me and it was my good behavior Who was gonna keep me out of my dad's arm reach that was gonna save me

It was making myself as small as humanly possible till I could get out. That was gonna save me So these are the kinds of things that were gonna save me it really wasn't focused on Jesus and yet I do remember growing up being afraid to go to sleep at night

My brother and I would always be like, are you still awake? Are you still like, you know? We didn't want to fall asleep first and I would sing over and over in my head

Jesus loves me just on repeat and I would fall asleep every night for years singing. Jesus loves me So I did know that Jesus loved me and that Jesus was kind but there was like a total separation from God the

Father Mm -hmm Interesting. Well, yeah, and so when you've actually view like your dad and maybe this is there's like a layers in which

I was just Thinking about this as well, too So did you kind of see your dad more as like God or did you see him more as like the meteor?

Towards God like you believe there was a God you saw your dad's a mediator Or it was a kind of like one in the same or like but obviously you're viewing it through the lens of like you're a child

And you're upbringing, you know, like how did you view it in that light in that light or like well in and on that note?

Like what was your view of God? Especially just thinking in that light. My dad was a mediator

I didn't think he was God, but he was so close to God that the distinction didn't matter a whole lot if My dad was pleased then

God was pleased. So it's essentially the same but no I didn't actually think they were one in the same I just thought they were so close that God was speaking through my dad and I would be told like my dad's

Behavior when he you know had poor behavior. Well, you know, that's the man in him so we need to forgive that and I know there's so many people listening gonna listen to this and be like Oh, yeah,

I've heard that one. Yeah, so it's okay Let's draw a distinction between this is the man and so we're gonna forgive for all these things

We have this happen with sexual abuse all the time. We have this happen with all kinds of abuses So well, that's the man the man's sinful

So let's forgive the man and we need to separate that out from this is when God's speaking through him So we're gonna pay attention to that.

So we're just we're gonna let that all be together Because it's worth dealing with the abuses because we're getting

God's Word and that's okay, which is incredibly confusing coming out of like What what do you do with that when you exit and you start to look at real

Christianity? I mean are all these behaviors acceptable? Like what do I do? Yeah, and God the Father was again

So basically I would say with with Jesus. Well, Jesus was nice. I didn't have to worry about him

So he was just kind of put off to the side and on a shelf like okay, Jesus isn't after me So I really okay

Jesus and I were probably fine, I guess so I'm just not gonna be concerned So I'm worried about my dad and I'm worried about God the

Father because God the Father is fire and brimstone Wrath just out to burn me up if I mess up so and and my dad's kind of the the link now

I was not taught we were actually very directly taught that my dad could not Hit he being his daughter was not gonna save me it did have to happen on my own like merit so to speak

So it wasn't that well, I'm saved just because I'm I'm his daughter But I knew that okay

My dad's so close to God that if I do what my dad says and he's pleased with me then God's gonna be pleased with Me I'm gonna make it.

I'm gonna be fine. Okay? No that no, I appreciate you saying that I do want to ask you a question and Andy you can jump in his world, too um so When it comes to the areas of cults and abuse

Whenever I hear about abuse happening with it within a cult. I'm never surprised by it

I mean, I nearly I nearly I expect it and I'm shocked when it doesn't happen was that prominent on any level like within your dad's cult that transpired or what was that like There was a lot of grooming that was going on looking back

So I don't I'm not aware of there being significant abuse Let's say sexual abuse specifically.

I'm not aware of that being prevalent with the kiddos in this group But I am aware definitely physical abuse.

I mean for sure. I mean it good heavens. I'm it was like What can we do to make it hurt more?

you know one of the Men had a belt where he had drilled holes into it because I guess something about the air going through it makes like the lash worse or something

So it's just yeah So, I mean we've had our heads banged into brick walls and you just never knew it was coming

It'd just be out of nowhere. You don't even know what you did wrong. So Those kinds of things were definitely prevalent as far as especially like our young women

They were groomed. They were definitely being groomed. I mean Who are you gonna marry

Older men having their eyes on younger women from a very young age I remember when I was eight someone had asked if he could marry me when

I was of age Fortunately, my dad actually said he was like, no, she's young We're not having this conversation, but it did happen in other ways.

And so we would have young women who They I mean most of this group was on the poor side

Yeah, isn't always the case in cults, but I would say that was the case. It was more lower -class Yeah, and so these young women if men came in who you know could provide for them they'd feel like okay,

I got to go off and get married at 17 because now I can help provide for my family and I can I'll be provided for and Just it blows my mind to think about because it's just not the day and age that we need to be in today

But it was the culture that was created among the group. Mm -hmm. Okay.

Oh Andrew do you have any questions or what are your thoughts here? Yeah, just it kind of makes sense to me especially when we were talking earlier about you know

You know, you're singing Jesus loves me at night But then being terribly terribly afraid of the father like all of these things bleed into each other

Especially into perversions of sexuality and the grooming of children. Like I'll just read this from first John 2 it says this it says

No one who denies the son has the father whoever confesses the son has the father Also, let what you heard from the beginning abide in you what you heard from the beginning abides in you

Then you two will abide in the son and in the father and this is the promise that he made to us eternal life Right, like even in first,

I mean even in John 1 verse 18 It says no one has ever seen the father except the unique and only son who has made him known meaning this that a lot of times cult leaders whether it be through their own revelation or a

Psychological manipulation of others will distort the being of Christ because you're not gonna actually have a good Representation of who the father is and his love for us for sending his son to die on the cross for our sins that we

Can have peace with God. No, it'll be manipulated right like Jesus Yeah, maybe he loves you, but he fully doesn't absorb the wrath of the father and then the actual human father they're there they then are a projection their anger or Some of the standards that you need to live up to are then projected on God the father

Because you never had it right understanding of the son in the first place You have no way to really to make sense of a family dynamic because we can't understand love without the

Trinity You know without the Godhead rightly understood in general and that's what it sounds like to me because What happens is when you don't understand who

Jesus is and you're a Christian Church supposed to be Christ followers You're gonna end up with people grooming young women, you know, like that's what happens.

There's no necessarily true Love abounding there or right actual ways to perceive the true family dynamic and and it's it's heartbreaking to me know me to hear that that Happened to you

But the great the great thing is is that you know who this the true son of God is now in the freedom that you have in Jesus but um

Well, yeah That's kind of some of my thought process going on there in terms of hearing your story and some of the things that you're going through well, thank you for that Andrew and when you're looking at a leader and You have that leader up on the pedestal and it's really it's the leader that you're following.

You're not really following the Lord You're really following the leader. Here's an example of what happens. I found this to be

Mind -blowing now and because the group's ongoing my dad passed away when I was 21.

So it's I'm 37 now. It's about 16 years ago and when he died,

I mean there's kind of a lull for a while and then a new man kind of took over and now

I had a recent conversation with someone who's who's within the group still and God has gone from Wrathful and scary which my dad was wrathful and scary to well now my dad's deceased

So after someone dies, it's easy over time to kind of forget the bad and just the good will surface

You know, you're trying to kind of respect their memory and and it's just easier because you're not living in the bad anymore and so now

God is like the Papa like God's like daddy and That's similar to how my dad's now being seen is like well forgive the bad like he he tried his best

He tried so hard he and and some of that may be true. Maybe that was his best I mean I could say it wasn't good enough and I think there's times where we can say the abuse isn't good enough

And so we need to figure that out I tell the story about my my husband who when we first got married

He was always 15 minutes late to work and he almost got fired and I remember him calling me one day and he's like well That's my best if it's not good enough to have to fire me.

I'm like no we can buy you an alarm clock, man Like there's another option. Yeah, so and he does he does he's to work on time now

So, you know, it's sometimes we called her best. It's like no that really wasn't someone's best It was convenient maybe it was convenient not to be challenged not to grow

And so when I look back I'm like God Changes based on the changes of the leader even if there's a change in leadership in totality or just a change in your leaders persona all of a sudden the

Trinity is different and God is the same yesterday today and forever. The Trinity is not going to change

Yeah, and so if we start to see those shifts like whoo red flag God didn't change on you

So do you even really know who he is? Yeah. Yeah revelation is always consistent on the On the revelator for sure so jumping back and maybe we'll also transition to you know

How you got out and how you were today here in the first part here is That I do have one other question real quickly in regards to just upbringing and just kind of the sociological demographics

So for the most part you talk about the grooming So most of the women were probably growing up and cut from probably ages 13 to 18 like at that point

Was it more like they were sort of being had the expectation or were being told that hey

You're gonna be one of the wives selected. You're gonna be more than likely just be a wife to Somebody within your commune and that's just the expectation to be married to them and to have as many children as possible

With who you are. Like I'm just I'm thinking like FLDS I'm thinking I'm thinking through that filter couldn't you say cult polygamous like that's what comes to mind

But from the women's vantage point was that their expectation or was it? What was that? It was the expectation there's something about goodness any kind of group where the messaging can be

Covert it's not necessarily something where I can remember sitting down with my mom and being told this, you know

It just comes through comments that are made what you see other people doing So it's not sometimes it's just sort of the way the culture is functioning

You just know what's expected or what's okay, and what's not? Yeah, so I don't recall a specific conversation with my family saying this is what you're supposed to do

But for example, I wasn't supposed to go to college. I wasn't supposed to seek higher education, you know

It's kind of we'll just go get a high school level job until you marry someone and then you don't have to worry about it Anymore, right, which is kind of funny now that I must have two master's degrees

Yeah, but that was the expectation was don't and then I remember when I went to my dad and I said well I want to go for social work and he's like I remember him staying there being like well

I think that would be okay because that's that's like a helping profession, you know Like you want to go help people that was okay for a female to want to do something like social work

So it fell into an okay. Well, we'll make that that exception but we definitely had this expectation of our our lives are

There whatever we're told they're going to be until this is over because it's supposed to be over soon and that's a big key factor here is that Like we the rapture should have happened by now you guys like this should have been done

I shouldn't have made it to 37. This should have been wrapped up already Yeah, I mean my dad was born in 1932.

So he'd have been what in his 90s now or something like 90 years old I mean if he wasn't supposed to die, which is what we were taught.

He wasn't supposed to die He's supposed to walk into the new heavens in the newer. So when he died at 21, that was a really big deal.

Mm -hmm And so if I'm thinking Okay, he's gonna live. I mean it wasn't that he was gonna live to be 200

So no, like it's it's gonna happen in a reasonable time, right? There's a real no really no motivator There's no real motivator to do something or be something or make something create something so yeah, go ahead and get married and and have babies and The gentlemen were certainly

I don't really like using that word It's a kind of word than I prefer to use but mm -hmm. We'll go ahead and keep it I don't know that they were gentlemen

I guess it's what I'm saying But the the men in the group certainly had their eyes on certain females and would start buying them gifts and doing all these like I remember this guy who

I could still remember the jacket He bought me when I was like 9 10 years old because I always got secondhand stuff

And so and he was so nice to me. He was so kind to me I mean and people weren't people weren't kind to children people weren't kind to women and so it just really stuck out

I'm like, wow, this guy is so nice and I really You're 9 10 years old. How old is this guy? I don't know for sure you guys but he must

I mean He was at least 20s and his 20s. Yeah, he had to have been. Yeah, he was an adult

I mean had a full beard at a full -time job. I mean he had to at least been in his 20s So so that's kind of how it would happen

As it's like you kind of get the affection of someone while she's young because you're actually treating her nice And then when she's old enough

She kind of wants maybe even wants to be with you because you've tried to treat it Or well, and she's not you so it's a 9 to 10 years old you're getting gifts and from the and they're giving gifts to girls who are 9 to 10 years at the old with the

Expectations that that might coerce them into marrying them when they're of marrying age Wow That's awful.

I do have another question and to when it comes to like from the men's vantage point So so do in early in early

LDS history There's a lot of really competition men were very competitive with each other because they all especially when

Brigham Young really advocated You know polygamy being being an adamant doctrine where it's like you have to abide by this or you'll be damned

So from your vantage point though What like boys who grew up in the cult for guys who are younger was there any sort of like level of like?

Competition to where all of a sudden like well, I don't know am I honest something here So I haven't

I haven't really thought about this before. Yeah, so Yeah, I mean what you just picked painted I mean, that's certainly not what a ten -year -old is thinking when she's like, oh,

I'll have my first kiss like no I think if it's a 40 year old man when you're 10, so the boys

We I'm thinking of two friends that I have Still have so the three of us girls

There were three boys that just all kind of age wise matched up with us so my brother matched with one and then there were two brothers and the oldest matched with one friend and the other one matched with Me as far as like age ranges and so we had it in our heads of okay

Well, the three of us will marry the three of them and that was partially like safety because we were creeped out

I mean it was it wasn't just even as we got older and we were teenagers, you know, 15 16 17 18

We we were like we just had this, you know that feeling of like this is wrong. Like there's just something wrong here there's something off and like being afraid and walking in to The the church meeting that we would have and just feeling like everyone's looking at you like just this feeling of like all of these

Older men are checking us out right now, and it was so uncomfortable and so we we wanted to marry these three younger boys kind of whether we loved him or not because it seemed like oh this is this will be better like this will work and But the the young boys wouldn't have even necessarily had a shot based on us not being educated and not being able

I mean, I still had you know, I graduated with honors in New York State, which is a you know high state hard state to graduate in for some people and so It's it's not that I wasn't educated, but I couldn't really go get a good job still

I mean, I worked at McDonald's like what's that gonna do for me? So so yeah the the older men certainly had an edge because they had they had the house and they could provide and they could buy you the

Gifts and they could and you're thinking well, I don't really have a way to provide for myself I haven't been set up for that.

So what are my options here? But we didn't really we didn't want to Okay. No them.

Okay, that definitely makes sense. I put that definitely does. Um, so this is so really in summary

I mean, this is not a typical American upbringing, you know, we're roughly the same age.

And so I'm thinking yeah Definitely very different. So at what point?

Did you get to a point where all of a sudden, you know, you're growing up in this cult, you know Where there are certain points where you started having

Those moments of doubt were kind of like the other edge of the looking -glass. Did you obviously you obviously left the cult?

What did that look like? What did the transition to have starting having doubts or leaving like summarize what that looked like for you?

Well, you guys first of all, I started to sin and that's what it looked like and I mean sin by the cult rules

That's why I'm laughing sin itself is not actually funny, but I wasn't really sitting So I started like my hair slowly creeped up my back and got a little shorter

And I started changing in the pants in the bathroom at school. And so, you know, I started doing those sorts of things

Yeah, and and in that way I started sort of I guess Experimenting in an unusual teenage way and kind of exploring a little bit of okay

This is kind of what I want to do and and I like this but feeling horribly guilty Being just really weighed down by those decisions praying that God would forgive me, but also feeling like it was fine

So just being really emotionally torn and not really having good doctrine to back anything up And that's you know, kind of similar to like what you hear from a preacher's kid, you know a

PK who is actually, you know An Orthodox Christian preacher their child is like well

I sort of have paid attention because it was my parent, you know It was my dad who was preaching so I didn't fully pay attention and that's kind of my story

So it's like maybe he taught more about the reasons for things I just remember being told what to do and what not to do and the why didn't really matter a whole lot

So that was hard for me. So I'm like, well, I don't really have a reason other than to not get in trouble So if I just don't get caught

I won't get in trouble. So we'll accomplish the goal still. Yeah So that's sort of how it started. Ultimately.

I went to college So I was in undergrad and I did marry outside of the cult group and that was okay

Because he was opened to the cult and so my dad actually gave me away at the wedding Which is a really big deal because we didn't believe in legal marriage.

So my dad was not legally married to anyone even my mom So that was that was really big.

I didn't even know that he would come but he did he came and he gave me away Which really mattered to me. It was super important. And so I'm married to this this guy who had grown up Catholic and Is you know knows my story knows

I have all these siblings and things like that and is okay with it But he's not following it either. He's not like coming to the

Bible studies or anything. So at that point I was kind of Living outside of the group, but I still fully believed the doctrine

I just didn't really want to fully comply at that time And so it was more of me rebelling in a way not really in my heart

Yeah But in kind of through my actions of like I'm just not feeling that committed or like that devout at this time frame

During that my dad passed away. So again, he died six months after I had married my now ex -husband and He that was shocking again.

I told you guys we didn't think he could we didn't think that could happen. So literally my Mom was hiding it.

Like I didn't know he was sick I traveled to Ohio to see some friends for New Year's Eve and Went to go visit my dad and called my brother that same day

I'm like, I know that like dad can't die, but like he looks like he's dying. So I just feel like maybe you should come

Anyway, yeah, and even being afraid to make that call because then it felt like you know, like my faith isn't strong enough

Yeah, like faith works thing and faith healing stuff and like goodness like maybe I shouldn't even be speaking this but so it's almost like You can't even acknowledge you can't even like properly grieve

Because like that acknowledges the fact that you know, it's your regardless of your dad's theology

Like this is your father and he's passing and that's got to be the hardest moment for anyone when they have their own mother or father passed away regardless of their their relationship with them, but it seems to me like it almost like in that moment just because of the

Theology that you were indoctrinated with it's almost like to sort of tap into that grief

It's like you're in that process. You're actually questioning God because he's

God's messenger Mm -hmm questioning and questioning just Reality. Yeah, it's like this is so surreal.

Like is this really happening? This can't really happen I was so confident you guys that he wouldn't actually die that I drove back really late on a

Saturday night and He died at noon the next day Like I drove four hours back home to go back.

I was in college. I was gonna go back to school I was the end of Christmas break. So I'm like I'm going back to school on Monday It's Saturday.

So I'm driving back. He's gonna come out of this. It's gonna be a miracle Well, that's not what happened.

So I get back sleep and get a phone call from my brother. Dad's dead I turn around like I get back and I was walking to a grocery store

I get back in the car and drive all the way back. Meanwhile, we're thinking he's gonna be resurrected. Mm -hmm, which makes sense, right?

I mean we're in this kind of group. You're just like, okay, he's gonna come back. So what do we do with his body? Maybe he'll resurrect on the third day

And so it's like what do we do and then it immediately jumped into this theology of well my dad used to tell these stories

Where he had dreams where he had gone away for a while. This is how he said it you know, I go away for a while and then the wheat and the tares are gonna be

Separated and I'm gonna come back and most of y 'all are gonna be gone Yeah And so that had been told so many times that story and so we believed that he had gone away for a while And that he was gonna come back and so no one would move

No one would like everyone just stayed put for like 10 years

They actually just recently relocated for the first it was a really big deal that this has happened

So and it took a new revelation for that to happen. They would have never relocated that based on my dad's revelation

So and it was believed that he was actually in his kind of young younger body restored body in another country

Which usually actually don't say the country but because y 'all did your six -part series on William Brenham, I'm gonna we'll announce it here

I'm comfortable with that but it was Africa which I find to be really interesting now knowing more of the

Connection with William Brenham to racism and the KKK and all these horrible things It was he was gonna be preaching and teaching in Africa because they were so desperate for him

And then he was gonna send people over and we were gonna, you know help disciple them So in other words, there'd almost be like another incarnation of the divine but through like your dad was for reappear like in another body

Like in somewhere in Africa, so it was gonna be yeah So it's gonna be his like younger 18 year old kind of restored body

Like he was old. It was a broken body and it's like, you know what? It's kind of I'm so this isn't like an immaculate conception

This is just someone who shows up as like an 18 year old. Yeah. Sorry. This is like super nerdy.

Pardon me I'm thinking of like, you know the Terminator like the Lions go on and also it's like the 18 year old version stands up and he's

Like has to go get some clothes or something like that. But with all the knowledge you still have. Yeah Yeah, almost like a

Benjamin Button kind of thing only you stop at 18. No, I'm just I'm just trying to grasp

Yeah, I mean so so people do people who still hold to this belief system still do they think right now?

He's in Africa while they have a new leader That brought them somewhere else like is that still something that they believe that he's just out there

I actually don't know as you guys might imagine. They don't talk to me a whole lot. Mm -hmm anyway Which is heartbreaking but the reality and reality

I expected, okay coming forward So I'm not sure what they've done with that. I just know what it was as of you know, maybe five years back and That was the belief and so I don't know exactly how it new revelation they have but it definitely was he's gonna come back

Okay, and so this all happens with your dad and just to say like this as crazy as this

Theology truly is it and how off it is from anything remotely accurate to vocal Christianity there's a level like you have to have empathy and understanding because like this is

Like you believe this and there's people who believe this in the same way like people who you know in the same way

I'm thinking Andrew about the footage of Father Divine's funeral when George Baker died and People were genuinely befuddled, you know, this is

God on earth, but they believe that you know He was going to come back at some point if I recall like it was just weird seeing, you know

People's theology still carrying over when they're when their leader dies But yeah, so you're so you're in this situation.

And so where? Was this a straw that broke the camel's back for you? So as we kind of wrap up the first part of it

Like how did you it seemed like this was the catalyst for kind of for you leaving then, right? You know you would think thanks for giving me that much credit, but it was not it was actually my mom dying

That was a catalyst for me. That was as Much as she didn't protect me from my dad in many ways.

She was the light of my world growing up She was a very kind Loving compassionate woman.

I mean the kind of woman who she had one of those Rolodex is yeah, but instead of phone numbers She had the names of like my friends and what they liked and didn't like so when they came over She could have their favorite treats.

I mean like that's the kind of woman so just just a darling of a lady and I watched her die and we didn't believe in medical care like God's will was gonna be done

And we believe that they'd be healed. And so my mom died in in her home and I watched that process

I mean, I know she was for sure in pain at times It just and I actually ended up being a hospice social worker

For years after I went back and got my master's degree in social work and I've seen many death and dying processes

I've seen hundreds of people die at this point in my life and looking back I have a couple guesses as to what my mom had died from but I also know for certain she should have been medicated

There's no way she was uncomfortable there. She was comfortable. There's no way it was a process that should have been and It was watching her die and losing her that pretty much ended me in general

If God had not shown up in my life the way he did at that time. I would not be here

I have no doubt. I would have killed myself Wow Okay, how did that show up in your life at that?

Well, yeah. Well, let's let's do this. Let's Well, we're gonna do it people don't like on a cliffhanger

Jerry. I know Well for us is gonna be five is enough It's gonna be five minutes because we've got a little extra rings in the first episode and there's

I feel like there's so much we Can still unpack here? So, yeah, we're gonna end it on a cliffhanger. It felt like one when

I said, oh, this is gonna be a great But so we're gonna carry that into the part two and also in a part two

We are going to be talking about because again, we started talking about how this episode's really about spiritual abuse

But we want to kind of give understand there's layers to what you do now So we're gonna be kind of we're gonna go into that in part two

But then we're gonna talk about what you're currently doing and also what you do to help people who have been through situate people

Who've been through situations like you're like yours to truly help them heal? from Spiritual abuse and help them get their lives on track and to hopefully understand the true gospel and also get plugged into the church, which is also one of our passions to is understanding and Helping and encouraging ex -cultists with compassion.

So I'm definitely I'm so pumped to hear for the second episode So we'll be back. We'll be back in about five minutes for the rest of y 'all

You're gonna have to wait a week So all that being said we'll talk to you all next time on cultists where we enter into The King with the