Pride Presupped w/Dr. James R. White

Welcome back to Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host, Eli Ayala, and tonight's guest is Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. This, I don't remember how many times I've already had him on. He's been so kind to hop on here quite a few times, but here he is again.

And Dr. White, many of you will be familiar with him. He has authored many books, some of which include The Potter's Freedom, What Every Christian Needs to Know about the Quran, The God Who Justifies, and of course, the book that's very relevant to our topic today, The Same-Sex Controversy.

He is also a prolific debater. I think I've watched all of his debates. There might be one or two, maybe five, if I really think, that have slipped through the cracks and I haven't seen, but for the most part, I do try to watch them all.

But he's debated so many times, I've lost count. I'm sure he will update us on the number if he remembers in just a few moments. Well, next Wednesday also, I'll be having Dr. White on again with Jason Lyle, Dr. Lyle, who was on yesterday, and we'll be doing a kind of live audience Q &A.

And then tomorrow, I have Keith Foskey of the Your Calvinist podcast coming on to talk about the topic of why young people are leaving the church. And then on Tuesday at 9 p .m. Eastern, I have Anthony Rogers and Jeremiah Nortier to talk about the biblical foundations of the doctrine of original sin.

And so, super excited for those upcoming shows. And before we kind of jump into this discussion for tonight, I just wanna remind people, I wanna mention, I mentioned this at the beginning of my program yesterday, that I started another YouTube channel called Revealed Apologetics Plus, and this basically features short videos on answering questions relating to theology, apologetics, and just general Bible questions.

And so, show some love and go over there and subscribe to Revealed Apologetics Plus, trying to have it as a resource where folks can just go and find quick answers to common questions. And lastly, I have a new course available.

If you're looking to support Revealed Apologetics in any way, you can sign up for my course Presupp Applied, in which I cover presuppositionalism, applied to atheism, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox presuppositionalism, and the cults.

And so, you guys can check that out. Information is in the description of this video. All of those things out of the way, once again, I'd like to welcome Dr. White. Why don't you say hi real quick before we kind of jump into this discussion?

Hi, real quick. That's what you told me to say. 189 on the debate at the moment, and it's all your fault. I just looked on Twitter. I put the link on Twitter and it said, and someone that uses the name Frederick the Wise, said, if anyone knows about pride, it's Mr. White clinging to Baptist heterodoxy.

Okay.

You gotta love Twitter. There's so many wonderful folks on Twitter.

I have not. I post on Twitter, but I don't actually read a lot of the threads, but I've heard some legendary things coming from Twitter.

There aren't too many places where I actually interact with people outside of Twitter, to be honest, because at least you don't have quite the same level of censorship that you have in comm boxes on YouTube or Facebook or whatever else.

So yeah, but no, you run into everything, including stuff like that. I mean, we're talking about something other than that kind of pride, but hey, you get every kind of comment.

Yes, I'm sure. Well, are there anything, new things that you're working on? Are you writing anything? I mean, I was mentioning your books here. I have a couple of books here.

It's been a long time. I have a project I'd like to be pursuing, but 2024 has been rough. I've spent more time in ERs and hospitals in 2024 than I had in preceding 60 years of my life. So yeah, we're just trying to work through all that kind of stuff and stay on the road.

I've got a trip coming up a month from now, up into Colorado. And then I've got, we're trying to arrange some open theism debates for that. Not getting a whole lot of cooperation on that at the moment, but hopefully something will happen.

And then I will be debating a former ordained PCA minister on the mass. He's become Roman Catholic. And we'll be debating in, I think it's Birmingham, somewhere back that direction, in October, Lord willing, again, all that depends on the old body functioning well enough to get you to get to where you need to go.

So yeah, between that and you know, Southern Baptist Convention was this week. And so on Sunday, Jeff Durbin says, hey, I wasn't planning on this, but Brian Gunter called and he's gonna try to do this, that and the other thing during the meetings.

And so I'm gonna be flying out early tomorrow morning and he didn't ask me, but I could just sort of tell. And so I went up to him a little bit later and said, so you need me to preach on Sunday, right?

Oh man, that would really help a lot.

Yeah, he led you in there.

Yeah, so I'll be preaching Sunday. So yeah, I'm doing a lot with preaching and apologia and stuff like that. And hey, I'm slowing down as I'm getting older. I've got grandkids and

Slowing down, slowing down. You just came back not that long ago from a debate marathon.

Yeah, that's true, that's true. Yeah, I'm just so thankful I got through the debates before other stuff happened that, you know, has you riding in ambulances at 3 a .m. in the morning. So yeah, it's good.

Well, hang in there. We hope you are healthy and everything works out. That's gotta be a little stressful, especially when you're wanting to get a lot of things done. So we hope that works out. Well, let's jump into our discussion, Dr. White.

I wanna let people know this is not clickbait, you know, pride precept. I really, really wanted to talk about the topic of homosexuality and transgenderism and how important it is to think from the position of biblical authority in terms of how to interact with this topic.

So can you kind of unpack for us, as you understand it, the importance of thinking presuppositionally when engaging conversations on this topic? And then we'll kind of get into more specificity with respect to how to interact and navigate certain talking points.

You know, when I first, my first introduction to really dealing with this subject was only about 24 years ago. It's not that I didn't know that homosexuality existed. It's just that I was raised within a context where you just didn't talk about it.

Independent fundamentalist Baptist, you know, we knew it was there, but you just never said anything about it. So we never thought about it biblically. We didn't, you know, if I were to look back and criticize my upbringing, and I've done that a number of times, I would have to say that we had no positive biblical doctrine of sexuality, marriage.

The eschatology we had was you may have kids, but you'll never have grandkids, so you don't have to worry about it. We had no idea of the importance of the church in regards to its relationship to the state, family, marriage, children, any of that kind of stuff.

It was just, that's bad stuff because of a couple of verses that I'll be honest with you, when I graduated from seminary, I could not have told you which, you know, they talk about the six clobber passages.

There's actually more than that, but the six key texts that you look at, I wouldn't have known what they were off the top of my head. And I probably didn't know almost anybody in my life that would have known what they were either.

So that's how behind the curve my generation was when the sexual revolution really kicked into high gear with the promotion of homosexuality. And hopefully all of us are old enough to remember that when Obergefell came down in June of 15, it was like a switch was flipped.

And everything changed from homosexuality to transgenderism. And now in hindsight, it's the only way to think about this subject from a Christian perspective is presuppositionally. And people go, I don't get what you mean by presuppositionally there are foundational givens in the Christian worldview that are no longer a part of the societal conversation.

And when Christians just go along with the abandonment of those foundational given truths, they're left arguing taste more than they are factuality, creation mandate, anything like that at all. And it's funny, I've never actually gone back and listened to the whole thing.

But in 2016, man, that was a busy year. In 2016, I was teaching apologetics at Phoenix Seminary. And I was contacted by the producers of the Dr. Drew show. And at first I was on via Skype, bad move. Eight years ago, Skype was questionable at best.

Things are better now. I mean, you and I are doing this online and it can be, but back then, oh, it was terrible. And you just don't put yourself in a situation where you're taking on four or five different people and they can all just talk over you and you'll never be heard.

That is correct.

So I was on one episode and it was interesting, but I didn't think it was all that useful because of the way I was interacting. And what's amazing is they contacted me and I was sitting right in this chair, this studio, that's where I did it at.

They contacted me a few days later and they said, we'd like to have you back on. And I was like, well, I'd like to, but I would want to be in studio. Well, we don't have money to do that. My wife works at the airlines, I can fly for free.

Well, we couldn't put you up, we'll put me up. Well, if you can get here, then that would be fine. And so I flew to Southern California and walked into the gates of hell called the CNN building in Los Angeles and was in studio and someone reposted just last night a bunch of segments from that program.

And like I said, I had never gone back to listen to it. And so it was fascinating. I do remember one of his sidekicks. So here you go. One of the sidekicks to Dr. Drew's arguments was, well, if you're a Christian and you believe in the Trinity and since Jesus existed as the father, the son, the Holy Spirit, then you shouldn't have any problem with someone being both a male and a female.

Oh boy.

And I'm just like, oh boy, how do you? Because the director of the program, producer, director, something like that, came into the green room beforehand and he said to us, we've done studies and if one person talks for more than 15 seconds in a row, our audience will start tuning out.

So please keep your answers short. Can you imagine 15 seconds?

With the kinds of questions and talking points that that involves, I mean, you can't, it's very hard to answer very loaded questions in 15 seconds, yeah.

Yeah, so that's what we were up against. And so just watching those little clips from what I saw on Twitter yesterday, this morning, whatever it was, I was reminded of just how presuppositional this issue is and that's why most Christians struggle with it because they have not been taught to think that way.

I've told people that certainly in my apologetic ministry, over 40 years now, the way my mind is wired and the way that I have been trained to think over the years, I can almost literally see an argument physically.

I can see what the foundational assertions are that are being made in an argument, even if they're not being expressed. And in fact, that's the issue is I have the ability to very quickly identify, and you've said, you've listened to almost all the 189 debates and you know during cross-examination, that's really my skill is to go in to the fundamental foundational assumptions where my opponent is making his mistakes.

They may not have been expressed in his open statements. I've tried to bring them out in the rebuttal, cross-ex is where you really need to go at it. And there's just, that is the essence of what we're dealing with in a society today that is so, it's denying its own history.

It's denying its own foundations. Common law, everything went back to Christian assumptions about man and responsibilities to man and things like that. We're denying all of that. It's creating the mess that we see where we have not just two tiered justice, but many different tiers of justice where you're getting one decision from a judge over here and over here you have the exact opposite and there's a reason for all of that.

And it goes back to those foundational level issues. And unfortunately, most churches do not teach their people to think, we can call it in a functional worldview method. We can say pride month precept, if you want to do it the way we're doing it here.

But the point is so many people struggle because they've already given in on some of the key foundational issues. And so the questions and the objections as they're thrown at us by the world leave us struggling to answer for that.

Well, let's zero in on that. Can you, and I want to get into some specific kind of points that some people bring up, but can you kind of identify maybe one or two examples of some of the pitfalls one could fall into when not approaching this topic from a presuppositional framework and appealing to neutral categories and things like this.

What kind of pitfalls specifically do people tend to fall into when coming at it from a non-presuppositional approach?

Well, I think just one of the more obvious ones that we see a lot of Christians getting into is basically trading scholarly studies. I read a study once that said this percentage this, this percentage that, as if you can address these foundational topics of what a woman is, what a man is, what marriage is, what human sexuality is supposed to be based upon trading studies.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with doing scholarly studies. I would point out that today, the vast majority of academic journals are utterly corrupt. This has been demonstrated over and over again by the number of people that have submitted completely fake studies that have been published simply because they fit the narrative that that particular journal is seeking to promote.

So we do have a problem along those lines where academia has been utterly corrupted by money and by narrative argumentation. And I've always really struggled when Christians would use a majority of scholars say argumentation to begin with because that's not an objective standard.

It can change. It's subject to all sorts of different ways of interpretation. And yet a lot of people do buy into it. And when you listen to people on programs in the United States, over in Europe, things like that, trying to express somewhat of a Christian perspective, they fall into it all the time.

Sure.

Now, I should say just in passing that though I don't think it's where you necessarily wanna go, one of my real concerns is that it does seem to me that there were probably a number of people in the audience a few minutes ago when I admitted that I graduated from seminary without knowing what the key texts on homosexuality were.

There were probably a number of people in the audience going, would include me. And that's a problem that I certainly at Apologia I have attempted, and of course on the dividing line, but then in the context of my church and my people, and before that at Phoenix Reform Baptist Church, I have done everything I can to make sure that if I'm in a position of being a pastor over a flock, the people in that flock are going to have a solid biblical understanding of the texts that address that issue.

Sure.

If we're talking about transgenderism, Matthew chapter 19, and that means even in sermons, as uncomfortable as this might be in a church context, dealing with the best the other side has to offer, and then sometimes some of the weird stuff that the other side has to offer, because sometimes you can shut down a conversation by just throwing some wild, wacky thing in there that no one's ever even thought of before.

Boy, do they do it in this area. You know, the 1946 movie is, I would consider to be one of those wild, wacky, crazy, insane, utterly impossible to defend in debate, which is why they'll never debate us.

I've been challenging them to do it ever since they started their project. But it's the type of thing that shuts down Christian conversation and a prophetic Christian witness, because no one's ever heard of this before.

What do you mean homosexuality wasn't in the Bible until 1946, what are you talking about? It's absurd, but if you've never heard it before, it can end everything. So I would encourage everyone. Obviously, Jeff Neal and I dealt with this stuff in the same sex controversy.

I have debated this subject. Ironically, the best debates I've done have been outside the United States. Two of them with Graham Codrington in South Africa. You can't find anybody in the U .S. The people in the U .S. recognize they have the media, they have the culture.

Therefore, debating the subject is just a lose-lose for them. And so Matthew Vines had said that he would debate when I did a, what was that, five or six hours? I think it was five hours for him and six hours for Gushie.

When I did a response to his, that thing sort of made him famous. Initially, he was like, oh yeah, when my book comes out, we'll debate. Soon as the book comes out, no debate. So it's not that the information isn't out there.

I've spent hours and hours and hours on the dividing line on this, going through Sodom and Gomorrah. There's lots and lots of Christians who will say irrelevant, only had to do with hospitality, et cetera, et cetera.

It's not true.

Ask Jim.

Well, I wanna get into that. I wanna get into that later because I want you to kind of expand that. I know you spoke on this in your book, the same-sex controversy. I remember reading it, listening to you expand on that.

I'd like you to do that in just a bit. But I wanna shift the question to the importance of worldview in general. So when we talk about words like, I had Dr. Lyle on yesterday. We were talking about, is the Bible unscientific?

And the thing that was coming across my mind was words like scientific, historical, factual, all of these words exist within a context, a worldview, a paradigm that dictates how we understand those things.

Why is it important to understand the role of worldviews when understanding everything but this specific topic? If you could answer that question in a general sense and then in a strategic sense, why is it helpful to speak about these topics within a worldview context?

Well, it's absolutely necessary because what we're facing, the reason we are seeing these massive shifts in our culture in views of things. So in 25 years, you've gone from a tiny percentage of people who would support the redefinition of marriage and that kind of thing to the majority, large majority.

Why?

Because as Vody Balkam likes to say, as has been saying for years, if we keep sending our children off to Caesar's training, we shouldn't be surprised when they come back as Romans. And the

Who said that again?

He says it better than I did, but it's something along the lines of, if we keep sending our children to be trained by Caesar, we should not be surprised when they come back as Romans. And it's obviously the case, the quote unquote educational system in the United States is not an educational system, it's an indoctrinational system.

And that has become just so patently obvious. Now, I was public school educated, but that was in the 1960s and 70s. And even then I was influenced. Now, I don't, you look at California or someplace like that, oh my goodness, my grandchildren are being homeschooled and I'll do everything I can to help with that process continuing on for that very reason.

But the point is people today are not taught to think critically. They are taught in the public indoctrination system a narrow set of definitions of terms, and they're never challenged to go beyond that.

So the terms you were talking about, scientific, that is not understood in a meaningful fashion by the vast majority of young people today. They've been given a completely false definition of it. They don't know what science is.

They don't know what the process of science is. And so language itself has been hijacked and it's not just, oh yeah, Wells got it right in 1984, new speak and everything. All of that's true, but there are levels beneath that that Christians should understand if they recognize the all-pervasiveness of the Christian worldview.

Unfortunately, most people are brought into the church with an evangelical methodology that does not challenge the secular worldview that they then come into the church with. And I think that's one of the major problems that we face in the church is that we have so many people sitting in the pews that were brought in without a challenge to the non-functional secular worldview that they already had.

And so they're sitting there with a massive contradiction between believing that Jesus Christ created all things and therefore he defines all things and therefore all things have a connectivity to one another as far as meaning and purpose and intentionality versus the utterly atomistic secularism of our age which denies all of that.

And if you deny all of that, we're not gonna be able to have a meaningful conversation because you're just gonna keep redefining words to maintain your narrative. And Christians should be the first ones to recognize that, but unfortunately, that's not always the case.

And in fact, it's very rarely the case that, and you know this, you're going, I follow you on Twitter and you go and you're speaking on Christian worldview issues and stuff like that in various Christian schools and stuff like that.

You're doing what you can to help people understand these things. And certainly in the churches that I've been a part of, that's always been a part of my ministry and my outreach was to seek to inculcate a functional Christian worldview even when that means that your sermons are not necessarily going to get five-star ratings on YouTube, you know, because you realize how vitally important that is.

It's absolutely necessary to do that. So yeah, that's where we're coming from. And so we're sending people out into the community, into the culture, and they're crippled. They're using a walking stick, they're on crutches because they're not excited about the consistency of the Christian worldview and how that answers so many of the questions that we have concerning where man comes from, what our purposes are.

Dr. Drew asked me, I just happened to see this this morning so that's why it's why I freshened my mind. Dr. Drew asked me, why should we care what somebody does in the privacy of their bedroom?

And the idea You can leap on that one and give examples in which that he would care very much.

Well, yeah, these days, but fundamentally my response was because we're made in the image of God. God made us in a certain way. He's revealed what that is, how that, you know, ultimately we are to glorify him.

From their perspective, it's all about us.

That's right.

The answer that he just gave there, and I think that that's great. It shows the fundamental distinction between your worldviews. From your worldview, we are made in the image of God. From his worldview, we're not.

And so, yeah, it makes sense from within his worldview to ask the question rhetorically, why should we care?

Yeah, because why should we care about anything? We're nothing but fizzing bags of chemicals. So it all comes back down to that. There should be no reason to care about anything at all. But especially here, it all comes down to, well, did God make us this way or not?

And hopefully most everybody by now has seen the utter destruction of the human self that the especially transgender movement is creating. When you, I mean, the stuff that I will see online, and look, we have to be careful what we see online.

Some of it might be fake. I mean, leaving that aside, it seems that there's so much of it that there are many young people today that their entire view of themselves has been so utterly destroyed and so utterly turned upside down that they cannot possibly even think about having any type of transcendent meaning in their lives, let alone a judgment after this life.

There's no meaning in what they do every day. There's no meaning in their life completely. Why even go on? And you can see it in their faces. They, the transgender school shooter, her writings were finally released, I think day for yesterday, maybe the day before that.

And I don't know if you've seen that, but remember they were suppressed after the shooting and they finally been released. And her utter detestation of her Christian parents, of Christianity, of religion in general, but Christianity specifically.

And hence the result was her utter detestation of herself that then resulted in the death of six people. There's a reason for this. And the world cannot answer what the reason is. They can read what she wrote, the vile, hateful things that she wrote.

They can read that, but their worldview cannot, it does not provide them with any kind of objective foundation upon which to go, well, there's your reason. There is no reason in a secular world. It's all chaos and it's all going to end in heat death.

So coming up, any intermediate discussion we might have of meaning and things like that is actually in the long run a joke from that perspective.

So how do we navigate that then? I mean, how do we, cause I was going to ask a question, let me ask this question first, and then I want to piggyback on what you just said by asking a question on how to bridge that gap.

So my second question that's coming after this one I'm about to ask is going to talk, is going to ask you in terms of how do we bridge the gap? Coming from a Christian perspective, we have objective meaning and purpose.

We have an understanding of that. How do we begin to talk to people who don't see the world from that perspective? That's my second question. My first question, however, though, is that as you know, these topics are filled with emotion.

They can be very difficult to navigate. In line with 1 Peter 3 .15, always being ready to give a reason or an answer for the hope that's within us, yet doing so with gentleness and respect, which is part of a biblical apologetic, how do we navigate these sorts of conversations with gentleness and respect, but without compromise?

And then after that, we'll kind of shift into, well then how do we bridge that worldview gap in discussion?

Well, I would assume over the years you've heard my sermons on 1 Peter 3 .15 and the fact that I believe most apologists twist the text and misuse the text. I think the key to that text is the fact that it's a quotation of Isaiah.

And when you see that it's a quotation by Isaiah 8, you see that when it says, and there's a textual variant there, but it's a minor one, that we are to treat Christ as Yahweh and we are to set him apart.

We're to treat him as holy as Yahweh in our hearts. And without taking too much time to go into all of that, the point is that recognizing that the creator himself has entered into his own creation, hence the incarnation, death, burial, resurrection, enthronement, ascension and enthronement of Jesus Christ.

Peter is writing to just regular Christians. He's not writing to highbrow intellectuals or anything like that. He's writing to regular Christians. And what that text is really saying is, if we live every day in light of what our profession of faith is, and that is Jesus was truly the incarnation of the second person of the Trinity, the creator entered into his creation, provided perfect salvation for us.

And our calling is to serve him and to be conformed to his image. The result of that, and the thing that was always before I came to understand this text, it would say, be ready to give an answer to those who ask a reason for the hope that's within you.

And most of the people I was talking to didn't ask me. You're going up to Salt Lake City and you're tripping the Mormons as they come out the gate, and they're not asking you. I was sort of forcing it on them.

The point is that what Peter is saying is, when you start with who Christ is, and all the ramifications that come from that, as Paul puts it in 1 Corinthians, why do we find in Christ the wisdom and power of God, whereas someone else finds foolishness and a scandal?

Mm-hmm.

Why is that? What is it about him? What is it about our changed nature in regeneration and salvation? What is that all about? And what Peter is saying is, when we live in light of that, we are going to respond to adversity, we're gonna respond to the world around us in a way that will make us stand out.

Mm-hmm.

And hence, people will see our changed priorities, and they will ask us, why do you have hope while the rest of us do not? And that's when we can, with gentleness and reverence, give an answer. Now, that gentleness and that reverence, that's not saying that we are to revere and respect falsehood.

Hmm.

We are to revere and respect the image of God in other people, and the fact that we are proclaiming his truth, so it's a reverence for God, it's reverence for his truth, it's reverence for his creatures, but it's not a reverence for falsehood.

And we are being told in our society today that we must revere transgender swimmers who are setting all the records because they're males and they're defeating females. I don't respect someone who does that.

Sure.

But we're being told, you have to, and there are many people in my own church, they work in jobs where they know that they are not going to get advancement and they could lose their position because they're being put under pressure to, especially in June, celebrate what we cannot celebrate.

And so I think with gentleness and reverence needs to be understood within the context of what Isaiah was saying, that Paul is quoting, and not translated into the Western eyes a willingness to show respect for that, which is fundamentally opposed to God's truth.

So that's

So 1 Peter 3, verse 15, that last part there is not a verse that says, we just need to be nice to unbelievers.

It's not a, hey, don't, what was that?

There's a lot more to it than that.

Okay, good. I just wanted,.

Because I know a lot of people would quote that passage, like, because Christians can come off, and I guess this is, we should be mindful of this too, the way we come off, the way we communicate, right?

That's going to be an important aspect.

It is, but let me, and people will say, well, you're hard-nosed and you're one of the worst people, this, like that. Look, obviously I'm not a Steven Anderson type guy or anything like that. I've spoken on this subject many, many times before, but I do think we need to try to help train Christians to recognize that the world is redefined.

We were already talking about language, scientific, whatever else. The world redefines love, gentleness, and respect as well. And in a way that my great-grandparents could never have understood. They could never have understood how we're even using that language today.

And so when people say, well, you're not being loving, I feel like if I have the time to do it, to read some of Jesus' parables and bring my enemies before me and execute them and say, would you consider that loving?

And that's Jesus talking about himself.

Sure.

And that would help, I think, people to understand that from a biblical perspective, a Christian worldview perspective, love is self-sacrificing and it assumes that there is a truth about what mankind is.

And we're dealing with a situation where the culture of death in our society has become so strong and so bold that for us to maintain a prophetic witness, and that's what I think we're being called to do,.

By the way.

A lot of this will have to do with your eschatology as to your long-term view of what it is we're being called to do.

Sure.

But even, I'm a post-millennialist, and even as a post-millennialist, I recognize

I'm a Puerto Rican, but that's a different eschatology.

I'm sorry?

I'm a Puerto Rican. That's not an eschatology. It's a different category. I'm post-millennial too, by the way.

Well, and certain other people you've been interviewing recently are too, but we can't talk about that. Anyway, the idea that that means everything is just getting better and better and better and better is not what I understand of post-millennialism.

There are nations and cultures that go through judgment, and that judgment is vitally important for the building of Christ's kingdom. And if we are in a situation where we are in a culture that has had so much light and is now coming under severe judgment, then our calling is to be faithful to the proclamation of the truth within that judgment.

And that may not mean, and that may end us up behind bars or worse, but that doesn't change the eschatological understanding of where we're supposed to be going. So I know one of the things I think about just in passing is my grandkids and my great-grandkids.

Don't have them yet, but my oldest grandchild is gonna be 15 later this year. So that means she's not that far away from maybe making me a great-grandfather somewhere down the road. Not trying to put any pressure on you, honey.

You need to find the right guy first.

That's right.

But I'm thinking for them, what I do in regards to the LGBTQ stuff, my opposition to this sexual revolution, really a lot of it is for her. And if I were to be willing to go to prison for standing firm on this, the primary reason I would do it is because I would be doing it for them.