Is Eastern Orthodoxy Orthodox?

All right, welcome back to another episode of revealed apologetics. I just want to start off With a brief apology if you guys have noticed I've been missing in action for The past three and a half weeks.

I came down with the virus. Okay, and I felt it's full it's full wrath its full force and It wasn't fun. I Felt all the wide range of symptoms. The only thing that I did not experience which I was very grateful for was the loss of taste.

So while I was Writhing in pain and agony. I was still able to enjoy you know food and things like that, but It was pretty bad. It was only by the grace of God and some ibuprofen that I was able to Survive the ordeal my wife was was so helpful and she was there for me every step of the way and And so now this is really my first day back at work.

I was able to go back to work I'm a teacher and so I was there for the first day of work The Oh the first day when I met with my students to say hello Let's go over the syllabus and then I haven't seen my students for two weeks since then.

So this is my first my first day back and my first evening back doing Revealed apologetics. So I just want to thank everybody Facebook friends and things like that who have been keeping me and their prayers my family and prayers as well.

My family had the virus as well and they were able to recover and so Yeah, I'm very grateful for for everyone who's kept us in your prayers or kept us in your prayers. And I just want to say thank you for the support and all the support of those who?

Subscribed to revealed apologetics last time I looked I think we're at three thousand two hundred and thirty something subscribers. And I appreciate every single one of you is whether you agree with my position the content that that I put out I do appreciate Your support in in whatever form that it comes and so.

With that said I'd like to say I'm glad to be back and if I seem a little Slow in my speech, I'm still kind of recovering. So I feel good. I'm ready for this discussion. But I do feel a little fatigued and so, you know, dr Tony Costa is gonna he's gonna do what he does and jump into some of these issues and Hopefully it will be of great benefit to those who are listening.

What Orthodox Means and Why Doctrine Matters

All right. Well, I Entitled this episode is Eastern Orthodoxy Orthodox and I thought that was a fun way of Titling this this discussion that we're gonna have this interview. And there it's no secret those who have listened to revealed apologetics that I am not Eastern Orthodox.

I I'm actually I Reformed Christian of the Baptist flavor if I can put my theology and in the context of ice cream flavors, right? I'm a I'm the a Baptist a reformed Baptist in the the flavor of my theology and when we speak of orthodoxy we speak of You know when you take a look for example of the the etymology of the word orthodoxy.

It it has this idea of being of the right opinion. And of course, this is related to our belief systems, you know orthodox theology what is the correct doctrine as it pertains to the essentials of the Christian faith and those who study theology understand why orthodoxy not Eastern Orthodoxy, but the concept of believing orthodox theology is so important as It flows into orthopraxy, right?

Right practice and right living the way we live our lives is reflective as Christians is reflective of having a proper theology and so having correct doctrine is Important and not perfect doctrine. I don't claim to have perfect doctrine but having Right doctrine in as much as the scripture reveals truth about these important distinctions that we're going to be talking about I think it's very important to have a proper Understanding of the gospel having a proper understanding of the work of Christ.

And to that as you as we reflect upon Eastern Orthodoxy we can tip our hat off to many within church history that has contributed to a Clarification of certain doctrines that we all share in common. But of course, there are some dividing lines that I'm very excited to be speaking with.

Dr Costa about there are these very important dividing lines that I think need to be drawn as we want to. We want to conform our beliefs to that of the teachings of the scripture now every Eastern Orthodox gentleman that I've had discussions with.

There's always this idea of well, you know all of your theological disputes between you and the Roman Catholics and things like that we were so detached from all these things and we've maintained kind of a Faithfulness to Apostolic teaching and of course they go through their various doctrines that they believe go back to the teaching of the Apostles and of course Jesus Christ himself.

Well, well real quick before I invite. Dr. Costa on Suppose suppose they were Eastern Orthodox Church was involved in the Reformation. The issue would have most likely been the same issue if you look in terms of the context of Protestantism and Roman Catholicism and the the causes of the Reformation where you where we make a distinction between the material cause and the formal cause in this issue of justification by faith alone and and what was lurking under that Dispute was the idea of sola scriptura when you understand what Eastern Orthodoxy Teaches and believes it's ecclesiology and you compare it to Roman Catholicism.

There's differences, but there's important similarities that I think still is relevant to the Protestant and Eastern Orthodox Differences and I think that's an important issue to keep in mind that our responses from an apologetic context is going to be very similar When we're dealing with the Eastern Orthodox Person as well as when we're when we're discussing Things with a Roman Catholic Individual so I want you to keep that in mind.

They're not exactly the same but there are some similarities that I think are very important and very apologetic Apologetically relevant. All right. So before we get into all those details just a real quick Announcement in terms of two guests that I'll be having in the near future.

I have just been informed that dr Michael Heiser is undergoing some health issues. And so I'm not sure if that will affect him coming on to the show I'm going to be reaching out to dr Heiser to see how he's doing and hopefully he's doing well and and I'll see where he's at in terms of whether he's able to Do the interview on our scheduled date and I also I'm going to be having dr. Matthew Barrett To come on and discuss issues of sola scriptura and it and I want to be on this kind of reform theology Reformation principles sort of thing because I think It is very apologetically relevant.

And so hopefully you guys will appreciate those sorts of Discussions and to tip a hat to our presuppositional brothers and sisters out there. All these are related to presuppositional Apologetics. Okay, the assumption of sola scriptura and the the ultimate authority of scripture are very important.

So Hopefully you guys can draw those connections and see the importance of this sort of theology and how it relates to apologetic Methodology now real quick. I want to show you guys this book. I just got Greg Bonson.

And maybe some people who grew up in the 90s will get this reference. Greg Bonson is the Tupac Shakur of apologetics, okay. If you know anything about Tupac Shakur, he was a hip-hop rapper of the 90s.

Which I'm not endorsing his music. It's definitely not the sort of music that you want to listen to and have wonderful beautiful thoughts. But when Tupac Shakur died it there were actually multiple albums that were released after his death.

And so I remember even in middle school. I was like, how's he coming out with albums? He just passed away, you know, Greg Bonson apparently is coming out with a bunch of books and he passed away in 1995.

So I'm just joking around but American Vision has just put out this book the impossibility of the contrary without God. You can't prove anything. I mean, it's based on a series of lectures in which dr. Bonson Defends a presuppositional approach and goes into great detail concerning the transcendental argument for God's existence very very useful resource for those who want to get into Presuppositional apologetics and of course, this is one book out of a series of three.

There was one that came out before this one called against all opposition Defending the Christian worldview and there is another one in the series I think it's a kind of a red cover if you look on American Vision website Called pushing the antithesis of which I have the old school the old school version here, which is upside down.

There we go. Okay, which I highly recommend if you guys really want to get your sink your teeth into some good Presuppositional apologetics. All right. Well, I have some people in the comments now. I'm ordering it right now.

Yes, please order it right now. It's totally worth it. I've read all three of them. Well, actually, I haven't read the newest one, but they're based off lectures that I probably listened to a thousand times.

So Highly recommend that. Also, I want to highly recommend. Dr Tony Costa's YouTube channel if and I always joke around and saying this but I'm partially not joking. The fact that many have not subscribed to the revealed apologetics and dr Costas channel it demonstrates the truth of total depravity.

So definitely get yourself over to dr Tony Costas YouTube channel. He has some great discussions and teachings and he also teaches online classes as well. You definitely want to check that out. He is a great resource and an excellent teacher.

Definitely very down-to-earth and can bring a lot of these technical ideas down to the average person, which I think is very very important. All right. Well, I'm going to now get all that stuff out of the way and I'm going to welcome.

Dr.

Tony Costa on the screen with me. How's it going brother? Hey Eli. I'm doing well, and I'm glad to hear that you're feeling better. Yes. You want me to put my hand on the screen and you could join with faith and we could I could pray healing into your.

We're not going to do any of that if you call the number on the bottom of the screen. We will send you this water from the Jordan River. Look at that that is not see now that is not Orthodoxy right there.

Neither in the Orthodox Church or in the Reformed churches. That's right. Well, what have you been up to?

I mean you you are a machine man. You're on my show now, but you literally just hopped off someone else's show.

So yeah, I was with brother Jordan Ravines, I believe it's pronounced in the Philippines. So I was just in the Philippines there and we were talking about Theology theological approach to apologetics and that kind of dovetailed with some of the things you were just saying Eli about presuppositional apologetics so I had an opportunity to to talk about the difference between Presuppositional apologetics and and evidentialist apologetics classical apologetics.

We also touched a little bit on Molin ISM. So that was a great great show but.

Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, he's a he's a good brother. I think I've been on his show a while back to talk about he's very interested in Reformed theology and Presuppositional ism and things like that.

So. Well, cool. Very good. Well, well, let's jump right into into things. Let's let's go over the simple question, right and then we'll dive into the detail. So is Eastern Orthodoxy. Orthodox, why don't you unpack that for us?

Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and the Question of Authority

Yeah. Share in ways in which it is Orthodox and in ways in which hey, there's some warning flags that we need to be careful.

Yeah, we need to define our terms. Obviously. Otherwise, we're going to be equivocating and Therefore we need to understand. Well, what is the word Orthodox mean? I think you've already defined that as as as the right teaching true teaching and so forth and it's corollary of course is orthopraxy and When we talk about Orthodoxy and Christianity, we're talking about the basically that the fundamental doctrines that define Christianity the the the Trinity the deity of Christ salvation by grace Alone in the Reformed tradition, of course and the bodily resurrection the virgin birth of Christ and and the end the the come of Christ to Judge at the end times the new heaven the new earth.

All of these things are considered those those creedal like confessions that have been encapsulated in the Apostles Creed the Nicene Creed the Nicene Constant the Nicene Constantinople Creed of 381 and so forth.

That's what we mean by Orthodox. Now when we talk about the Orthodox Church, we're now talking about a church let's call it for lack of a better word a church denomination a series of churches that are known as Byzantine and Orthodox simply means that this church believes that it is the heir of the Apostles and That it believes that it has maintained the true doctrine of the church through the infallible seven ecumenical councils.

Now the Roman Catholic Church would also say they're Orthodox. Even though they use the term Catholic but they would also say they're Orthodox the Orthodox would also say they're Catholic because they believe the word Catholic means universal global.

But then Protestants can also use the word Catholic because they believe the church is global. It is universal. So we need to define our terms very carefully so that we don't end up again equivocating.

So so when we mean Orthodoxy. As as Reformed Christians or Protestant Christians, we're talking about true doctrine and true teaching and sound doctrine.

Now now there is some flexibility. Is it not the case that within Orthodoxy there? There's some flexibility in terms of what we would call Orthodox Christianity. For example, you and I are Reformed Baptist, but we are not of the position that unless you're a Reformed Baptist.

You're not a Christian, right? Why don't you talk about? Yeah. Flexibility within the concept of Orthodoxy. Yeah.

I mean the flexibility here says that We we believe that that salvation is the work of God and that we believe that anyone who has a vital living Relationship with Christ and knows Christ as Lord and Savior, you know in a in a transformative manner.

We believe they're Christians. And so we're we're willing to say yeah, there there are believers in the Wesleyan tradition. There's believers in the Arminian camps. It can there be believers in in the Roman Catholic Church?

Well, yes, but the Reformers were all converted while they were still in the Roman Catholic Church. Luther was in there Calvin was in there but in due time they they left because they just felt the tension between what they saw in Scripture and what they saw in those Traditions and there are examples of people even in the Orthodox Church who come to a saving faith in Christ.

Some of my students at the Toronto Baptist Seminary are our former members of the Orthodox Church who are now Reformed Baptist and then we have of course Cyril Lucaris who can forget the 17th century Patriarch of Constantinople Cyril Lucaris who went to Poland to to Educate the Orthodox Church there against Roman Catholic a proselytization that was taking place and he came across these Protestants who are of the Calvinist persuasion and.

And Cyril Lucaris wrote a confession. That sounds exactly like Calvin's Institutes of the Christian religion. That's right. And he was the Patriot. He was a brilliant Orthodox theologian, but if you read his confession, it's basically the Institutes of the Christian religion.

He was eventually Killed by by Muslim Turks and and his body thrown into the Bosphorus but but the point here is that here's a person like Cyril Lucaris a patriarch no less of Constantinople and and he came to the conviction of God's electing grace.

He came to the conviction of Predestination and so forth the doctrines of grace. And so No particular church has a monopoly on on on Those whom God will save the Holy Spirit the wind blows as it wills, you know.

You don't know once it comes know where it goes. And so we're not we're not saying unless you're part of this, you know. These four walls of this Reformed Church or the Presbyterian Church. You're not a Christian.

So we do believe in in Augustine's, you know, there is the the mystical church and there's also the local church. So we know that in the mystical church. God knows all his elect. The Lord knows those who are his.

But in the local churches, you know, it's made up of let's face it. It's made up of genuine believers and there's there's also goats in there. There's there's wheat and tares.

So you would you would equate local church with the language of the visible church and the Mystical church with the language of the invisible church, right? That's correct. That's correct. Okay. So why don't we actually kind of draw some comparisons here.

If someone were to ask you dr. Costa what is the difference between Protestant Christianity and and You know what? Let let's compare Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy and then we'll throw Protestantism there into the mix.

And what some important distinctions. If someone were to ask you Mr. Dr. Costa, what is the difference between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy?

How would you draw out those differences the differences ultimately have to do with with church authority? So in in up until 1054, which was the Great Schism the the break between the East and the West.

Up until that time there was a there was an understanding of each other. There was this okay, you're over there in Rome and you're over there in Constantinople and There was this understanding that we could still get along.

We don't like this papal supremacy thing. And we certainly don't like the filio K that you inserted and the Sun into the Nicene Creed. You know, how dare you do that without the formation of a council?

But in 1054 the break came and the break came because the Pope in the West in Rome the Pope sent a a papal bull basically excommunicating the the the Eastern Church and Because they wouldn't submit to the supremacy of the Western Church the the papacy so basically that the major difference is Authority.

Rome is based on a a Pope who is one figure the successor of Peter. Over the Magisterium, which is which are the the bishops are the successors of the Apostles. The Pope is the successor of Peter and they oversee the church the Orthodox Church Of course rejects the papacy.

The Orthodox Church is very very close to the Protestant churches in that it has affirmed from the beginning a collegiality of bishops that bishops are autocephalous or they're autonomous to their own local churches and and while they do have Patriarchs the patriarchs are not papal in authority the patriarchs Are our bishops at the very top.

But they regard other bishops in a college if you will a college of bishops. And so the saying amongst them is that the Bishop of Rome is first among equals. He is he is Primus inter Paris in Latin. He is the first among equals because of the prestige that Rome had.

He's not first among equals because he's better or higher has more authority but because of the honor that was given to Rome as the place of Paul and Peter's martyrdom and Constantinople in 1324 Constantine declared Constantinople to be the second city in honor after Rome.

It was the new Rome. That's what it for that Constantine created the new Rome. So It's it's authority structures are very different. The liturgy is different. So for example the West moved towards Latin in the year 200 AD Rome began to use to use Greek in the Senate.

But then they they abandoned that and started using Latin. The East continued using Greek in the liturgy. So now you've got Latin and Greek you and you've got literally they're talking past each other in many cases.

Which led to a lot of misunderstandings. For the other problem, of course is that the Eastern Church their view of Salvation Was one of theosis the the idea that you you Athanasius said God became man that man may become God and so the Eastern Church believes that The ultimate aim of humans is to be divinized not to become God in essence, but to become Absorbed into the triune life of God in the Western tradition which saw the Atonement in more Judicial forensic terms in the West everything was about the Atonement meant that God Had it was judicially removing the penalty of the law Which is death and so the focus on the West was on Christ's Atonement as a sacrifice in the East.

It was Christus Victor Christ's death and resurrection was Christ's triumph. Over the the infernal powers and you see that in the beautiful icon of the resurrection. Where Christ is breaking through the bars of Hades with Adam in one hand and Eve on the other and he's taken out the Old New Testament Saints, so there is a difference in in You know the view of the councils the seven ecumenical councils are.

Interrupt you and I do apologize. I know you're on a roll. There's just so much there but I think what people might find interesting is is this idea of theosis and you said that man becoming Becoming like God and and how.

That's not the belief within Eastern Orthodoxy that man becomes divine. But it's very much rooted in what the Orthodox distinguished between the essence and energies of God so so that the essence of God is the unknowable element of his being whereas his energies are kind of like they.

Correct me if I'm wrong. They compare it to kind of rays of from the Sun right in which God communicates to to his people and it's within those energies that Theosis finds its culmination that believers participate in the energy right right think of it as the ontological.

Trinity and the economical Trinity the ontological Trinity is about the essence and so in in Eastern Orthodoxy The essence of God is unknowable, and and this is why many of the Eastern fathers used what's called in Latin.

We call it the via negativa the negative way Apple fat fatty feel Is talking about God in what he is not so God is immortal. He's not mortal. God is invincible. He's not visible. God is immaterial. He's not material.

It's defining God by using negative terminology what he is not. So the essence of God according to Basil and and and others especially Gregory Palamas. Who is the big proponent of this idea of the energies of God?

Is the view that the essence of God is unknowable? It's beyond its transcendent and that God can only be known through his energies and like you said It's like the rays that that proceed from from the Sun so the way the Orthodox would describe that is that the energies of God is is the way the economical Trinity works how how God reveals himself through Christ and then the Holy Spirit coming on the church and It's through the work of the Holy Spirit that that human beings through the mysteries the sacraments.

They call them mysteries are Brought into union with with God so so the incarnation is the pivotal point in orthodoxy. It's not the resurrection necessarily, it's the incarnation because the incarnation is God taken on human form one person with two natures divine and human and so what they see in the incarnation is Christ is recapitulating Creation back to himself and in that work.

He is raising humanity from its state of Disease and sin. Raising them up so that they can be taken in divine partakers of the divine nature. According to 2nd Peter 1 4 and thereby they are absorbed into the life of God now to Protestants.

That sounds a little odd, but if you think of it among the lines of glorification what we mean by glorification. So where we are finally perfected and so forth we become like him we see him as he is. Partakers not overtakers, but partakers.

Then then glorification is what the East would refer to as as theosis. So so and and Protestants who are listening to the concept of theosis might be tempted to Think of it in terms of something akin to Mormonism right.

And that it's not the same thing it. When you can you say that quote again by by st.

Athanasius. Athanasius said God became Man so that man may become God, but we can't just leave it at that. We need to let Athanasius Define what he means by that he makes it clear. It certainly does not mean that the creature becomes creator.

The creature doesn't become God right, but the the creature. It just as as it just as when God became man. He didn't cease to be God. And so what. When man becomes divinized he doesn't cease to be human.

He doesn't lose one form and then become another. And so in the view of the of the Eastern Fathers like like like Gregory of Nyssa and and Basil and and Athanasius the view was that that in in Theosis what the West would call the beatific vision the in theosis you become basically glorified you become Absorbed into the the life of the triune God, and you are perfected in that in that state.

Now now as a again being Protestant Christians or Western in in our orientation. Would we would we? Agree with that in in a sense, but utilize different language. Or is there so we would agree with theosis, but use the language of the West to describe the process of justification.

Sanctification and glorification. Correct. So when we think of glorification. What does the Bible say. Well we are heirs of God. We are joint heirs with Christ, and so obviously there is a sharing that goes on there.

And it doesn't mean God transmits his Essence to us because the only ones who share the essence of God are the is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. But there is something that he shares. Christ will share his glory with us.

Well. What does that glory look like. Well that glory? Means to be united to him if we are united to him in the likeness of his death. Paul says we shall be united to Him in the likeness of his resurrection and that involves becoming immortal in the resurrection.

Mortal bodies glorified bodies incorruptible bodies spiritual bodies. So what the West means by glorification? You know the final state is what the East means by theosis. It's just that again when we're using Latin, and we're using Greek.

You know the old saying something's lost in translation sometimes and so and so. They're they're basically talking about the same thing, but they're using different language, okay? So we're not used to hearing that this language.

Sure. So the Mormons you know the Mormon belief is that there's a finite God and then he becomes a man becomes God. And then he he populates this new world and then and then he sends his son. And then and then you become a god yourself.

And that's not what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches even though some Mormon apologists have tried to justify their view through theosis. Sure sure.

So you would say that theosis is? Orthodox, but it is often misunderstood because of the language that's used to describe it correct. Okay, very good. And and I think that's a beautiful a beautiful concept when we talk about say for example partaking in the nature of God whether we're talking about it in categories of theosis theology or participating in the nature of God in terms of glorification.

I want folks to understand that at this moment You need to step back from the intellectual discussion and stand in awe and worship of the idea that the triune God the Father Son and Holy Spirit was an eternal relationship before time began and a Relationship that is the most intimate relationship one can possibly think of and God invites us into that Trinitarian relationship that has been going on from all eternity.

This is why I think theology, and I know dr. Costa you would agree theology should produce Worship once we understand the implications of these profound profound truths absolutely well.

Thank you so much for clarifying. Let me add something though if you don't mind if I could just add from second. From from second Peter there from second Peter one. And four there it's important to also realize that in one for there and.

And here, I'm looking at the the Greek text here of second Peter. He he points out here. That this sharing that we're going to have he uses the Greek word Theos and that's important because the word say us there is the word that that we get divinity from the Divinity divine and we need to be very careful here because it's not the typical word used of God's deity.

The word deity right the word Theotis. In Colossians 2 9 it only appears there. It's a hypoxyl gamma now. You know what that is hypoxyl gamma. None it appears only once and the word Theotis Colossians 2 9 is translated deity.

In him dwells the fullness of deity or the Godhead bodily. And in in Romans 120 Paul says that we could we we could see God's divine attributes. He uses the word Uses a different Theotis it's a different word and so one has to do with with essence.

Theotis deity is essence the other word and Peter uses that word here Theos in the feminine form. It means divine and so the word divine carries the notion of likeness. Divine as in being like God not the same as God.

Does it doesn't mean having the essence of God and so when God made man in Genesis 126 orthodoxy logins also focus on this. It says let us make man in our image after our likeness and so they look at that word likeness and they see that as the template if you will the Archetype of this thing called Theosis.

Scripture, Tradition, and the Orthodox View of the Church

Hmm very fascinating now.

Okay, so when we ask the question of being kind of rewind we ask the question What is the difference between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy? It really boils down to the issue of the nature of their Authority, right?

So would you say that both you know, you know, which a lot of people use for short and Roman Catholicism. They have similar Authorities with some important caveats. So for example, we say that the authority within Eastern Orthodoxy is scripture and tradition and Authority in Roman Catholicism is scripture and tradition with the specific caveats that differentiate them papal authority in the magisterium and things like that.

Would I be correct there in summarizing? We need to be careful that in orthodoxy tradition is a single stream. So to them if you say is it is it scripture or tradition? They'll say it's both it comes from one stream and so to the Orthodox God makes his his graces energies known Through scripture tradition.

Those are one stream and Icons and so forth are ways. They believe God Communicates his his energies to his people and so forth. Whereas in the Roman Catholic Church, you do have the this if you will think of a three-legged three-legged stool.

You got scripture you got tradition and you got the magisterium. Okay, and so they would look at scripture and tradition as these let's say distinctive planks, but they're Harmonious in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

It's all one line. It's all one straight line. Sure. Okay, that's it.

That's important to keep in mind. Thank you so much. And there's some nuances. I mean, it's very interesting it when I know a lot of people. Caricature. Eastern Orthodoxy is kind of a popeless Catholicism.

But there is some important nuances there that I think differentiate them that I think is important to keep in mind especially when we made reference to Mormonism and how theosis is not like what Mormonism teaches if we can just step aside for two seconds and acknowledge the important apologetic Importance of properly understanding and representing a person's view.

Okay, you're not going to get very far in a discussion with the Eastern Orthodox gentlemen or or young lady or whoever you're speaking with if you're equating the EO doctrine of theosis with. You know this idea that is expressed in Mormonism.

So we want to make sure we properly represent the side that we're engaging. All right. Thank you so much for that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So now let's throw in Protestantism, okay. So what is the difference between Protestantism and.

Well, I guess what we'll pick since Eastern Orthodox is our focus here people should already know the main difference. But it's going to be very similar to what you said with some caveats. What is the difference the key difference between Protestant Christianity and Eastern Orthodoxy?

Yeah, I would say that it once again it all comes back to authority in the Protestant historic Protestant tradition it is Sola Scriptura, it is the supremacy of Scripture over all things. It's the final court the Supreme Court and it's not that Protestantism is choose tradition.

It doesn't in fact all the Reformers appreciated tradition. And in fact Calvin spoke highly of the fathers like Chrysostom and and others. And Augustine and so forth and so in in the Protestant tradition We have Scripture is the final arbiter.

The final Court of Appeal in all things and that that that Scriptures judged the church. In in the Orthodox tradition it is there is no distinction between Scripture and tradition. They're all one there.

They're one stream. And so in the Orthodox Church, if you were to say to them, is it proper to venerate icons? And they will say well, of course it is why well because the Second Council of Nicaea Proclaimed it in 787 AD.

Hmm and then if you say well, what about the Bible? Well, you know, you've got to read John of Damascus and understand what he means by you know. When the incarnation meant that Christ has divinized matter and so that means that if we make icons which are made of matter the icons have been divinized because in the incarnation God Became man and and and even in his baptism.

He blessed the material world. He blessed the waters and so forth. So that there's a very mystical view of this idea of the world's divinization in Christ.

So are you saying that the icons that Eastern Orthodox use are Exemplifications of incarnation which was that important? Ah, okay. That actually because because the whole idea of the icons is that.

Since matter has been blessed by the incarnation of God taken on flesh Then matter since since he saw fit to take upon himself a material body. The reasoning of John Damascus, for example, is that Matter has been sanctified and therefore matter can be used as a way of showing God's grace and and and and depicted in the icons of Christ and and The Theotokos which is the title for Mary the mother of God and also the Saints and so forth.

Hmm, all right, very interesting. So, okay, so we have. The main difference really which again, this is why I said at the beginning the central issue between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism and Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy is really going to be this issue of Authority.

I mean Everything hinges upon the nature of our authority and dictates what we're gonna believe based upon that authority. So let's dive into let's let's cast Roman Catholicism aside as as it's not the central focus of this discussion and really pit if we will the Authority the asserted authority of Protestantism and the asserted authority of Eastern Orthodoxy at what point?

Dr. Costa does Eastern Orthodoxy start becoming unorthodox in terms of scripture and how the Protestant would defend the genuine authority of Protestant authority right as opposed to because it's these are authority claims.

I mean, right you got there some people who might be listening who know certain Eastern Orthodox folks. Think along very presuppositional lines. And so they know they're very familiar with this idea of ultimate Authorities and how everything's viewed through the lens of worldview things like this.