June 24, 2020 Show with Dr. Curt Daniel on “The History & Theology of Calvinism” (Part 4)

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this

24th day of June 2020.

And it's always a joy to have on the program someone who has become one of my very favorite guests to

interview.

That's Dr. Kurt Daniel.

He is author and pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois.

And today we are having our fourth interview on his book, his 900

-page hardback, The History and Theology of Calvinism.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the fourth time, Dr. Kurt

Daniel.

Well, if you could, for the sake of our listeners who haven't heard you on the show yet, can you tell us something about Faith Bible Church

of Springfield, Illinois?

Yes, I've been in

attendance for

years, and

we try to serve the Lord in all things.

Praise God.

Well, if anybody has any questions regarding Faith Bible Church of

Springfield, Illinois, you can go to faithbibleonline .net.

Faithbibleonline .net.

Faithbibleonline .net.

Well, we've covered a lot of issues over the previous three

interviews that we've done on this book.

And I'm sure that when we're finished, there's going to be a lot more that we haven't addressed that we wish we had, but we

only have the time.

That is a lot to us.

But perhaps if we could start with biblical apologetics

in the realm of the doctrines of Calvinism.

Jump in?

Yes.

Got it.

I do have a

chapter on it

that's a little different

than

Rationalism.

There's

another

approach

in

Scotland,

but it's

not

specifically Reformed.

Norman Geisler and others that are very definitely not.

Then there are two other forms that are popular, mainly amongst Calvinists,

called Reformed

Antigua and Nicholas

Wolterstam.

Somewhat on the left wing of the Calvinist movement, like at Calvin Seminary,

Calvinism.

This is popular in those circles.

One problem with this approach is that it's very, very soft.

So it doesn't bring in the Bible.

It's not too big on evidences and arguments.

It emphasizes warrants.

You don't have to have absolute certainty.

If there's enough warrant to warrant

convict someone on the bulk of evidence, it doesn't mean beyond the shadow of a doubt, but beyond

a reasonable doubt.

So it's like he's saying, well, it doesn't have to be proved.

There are many things we know that we don't have to prove.

Fifty years ago, what's called presuppositional, Abraham

Kuyper in the Netherlands in the late 1800s,

the teachers at Westminster Seminary, Greg Bonson, Scott Oliphant, and many others have

taught.

One advantage of this is that, as far as I know, only Calvinists believe in this

presuppositional approach.

And there are varieties.

The late Francis Schaefer taught a modified form of this.

And the Vandillians often argued, even until today.

Arkansas, because they're both in heaven.

What this approach says is, warrants, proofs, arguments are not sufficient.

What we do is we challenge the presupposition of those that are arguing against

Christianity.

Presupposition is like an

unconscious assumption you have.

And so this approach says it's very antithetical.

We don't use their argument.

We use a different one.

I held to that for many, many years, because it was still very common amongst

us.

But I came to see that each of these approaches still uses two

different arguments.

So there's

the groundwork.

All of this is within an evangelical way of defending the faith.

But the approach I put forth is saying, let's be more biblical.

In fact, it's biblical.

Well, if you could start to explain that in a little bit more detail as to what

makes biblical apologetics more biblical than, let's say,

presuppositionalism to start with, because obviously all

Christian apologists would say that their version of apologetics

would be biblical, or the most faithful to the scriptures.

But if you could.

Okay.

Well, I came up with the

term McManus.

What Balcombe

uses is

expository, a found the Bible.

We use the Bible to defend Christianity.

The

Bible is sufficient in

counseling,

because counselors had used an

integrationist approach.

They'd use the Bible, but they'd also use the findings of secular psychology,

sociology, and so forth.

They'd borrow from

Meade, but Meade's are basically spiritual in nature, so the

Bible is to

say that we need a revolution in apologetics to say we don't need to

borrow from what is the popular philosophy of today, such as,

we don't need to use those weapons against them.

We've got the weapons of the three priests as our

proof.

That's not just what you can use in defending Christians, but that's answering

the objections of non -Christians.

So we use the Bible to defend Christianity.

We have a question from a listener, and as you may

have witnessed already over these previous three

interviews we've done with you, brother, whenever I get a question from

a pastor whose church I feel very confident I can promote,

because I believe it's a biblically sound and faithful and valuable church.

I give more than a first name and city and state.

I give the entirety of their name and the church and so on.

And that is the case with our first question, which comes from Dr.

Jeffrey C. Waddington, who is pastor of Faith Orthodox Presbyterian Church

in Fawn Grove, Pennsylvania.

And by the way, folks, if you ever want to look up that church and find out more about it, the

website is faithopc .net.

Faithopc .net.

And Dr. Waddington asks, What is Kurtz's

assessment of the Calvin versus the Calvinists debate?

Well, that's a different issue.

I do address it briefly a few times in my book.

...Calvin's theology consistently, or did they take a...

I think by and large there was continuity, but a couple of points of discontinuity.

I just thought it might be an agreement.

Obviously, an exception you might take would be with hyper -Calvinists,

some who believe they're actually carrying on correctly the legacy of Calvin, and

others who have gone so extreme in their hyper -Calvinism that they don't even believe Calvin himself

was saved.

Well, there's a better case to be made for more disjunction between the hyper

-Calvinists and Calvin

Baptist belief.

The thing is, Calvin believed in a universe, and we get back to

the biblical apologetics, because

someone's going to

say, well, you say it's biblical, but how does it

operate?

Well, go ahead, answer your own question.

We don't use...the Bible

warns us about the devil's war.

There's no Christian philosophy any more than Christian adultery.

Biblical apologetics is like this.

We hear an objection or a question, and then we boil it down to, what do they actually

disagree with us on?

Then we do a search in our mind and say, now, how does the Bible...

We quote it, we explain it, we apply it to that specific...

In effect, we're saying, it is written, or thus says, the Bible says...

For example, I used to do a lot of open -air straight evangelism

...of objections.

Prove to me there's a God.

I'd say, well, God proves it himself.

In the Bible, God says, I am

God, not the Bible.

He proves his own existence.

To me, the Bible

is an objection.

They'll say, well, for example, I believe everything is relative, or you make your own...

Well, that's not what God says in the Bible.

This is what God...

...17.

Ethics are not relative.

The Bible says, thou shalt...

I keep quoting...

You see, God's not on trial.

A lot of apologetics says, well, God's on trial, and we have to answer the objections of

non -Christians to their satisfaction in order for them to believe.

I say, it's the exact opposite.

God's not on trial.

They are on trial, so we turn the tables, and that's part of evangelism.

We dare not say, well, apologetics is

just almost as a game to show that they know

more or that they've won an argument.

We dare not lose...

The idea is that we're trying to tell people that they could be saved.

It's evangelistic from the Bible.

If they say, well, stop quoting the Bible to me, that's like getting into a fight with someone, and he says, hey, put that

club down or put that gun or that knife down.

We do that, we're gonna be at his mercy.

Another thing is if we start using their philosophy against them, chances are they're gonna know more about their philosophy

than we do, especially if you come up against a scientist or a philosophy major at college, they're

gonna wrap us around their little finger.

So what we dare not do,

these other

systems are saying, you fight fire with

fire, and you gotta know all about their philosophy in order to distance yourself

from their

philosophy.

In essence,

that Bible is God's ordained means whereby he gives faith,

he gives...

We wanna get the Bible...

Now, to the OPC brother, I would say, you probably learned presuppositionalism in

Brant Hill, but

he didn't quote the Bible

or exegete it enough.

Oh, that's an interesting admission from Brant Hill.

Let's see here, we have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

And Christopher asks, I know that you've made it clear that your approach to biblical

apologetics is different from both evidentialism and presuppositionalism,

but would you say that either of them are closer to an accurate model?

I know that there are great men of God from the Reformed tradition who have disagreed over this.

We have Bonson on one side being a presuppositionalist and R .C.

Sproul on the other being an evidentialist, but were either of those

closer to what you would call biblical apologetics?

Yes, by the way, those two brothers were reconciled in heaven, and they did a lot of great work in the kingdom of

God.

Sproul and Bonson had a debate,

disagreed

on the methods of apologetics, and yet they were both strong Calvinists.

My opinion, presuppositionalism, certain

weaknesses.

Ago, Greg Bonson's debate.

Gordon Stein?

Oh, in any debate, it comes down to one key question.

And I remember when the debate took a special turn, it's kind of like

giving him a dunk shot and said, okay, thus and so.

And Bonson says, why do I believe the Bible?

Because of the impossibility of the concept that you keep finding in

presuppositionalism, that the alternatives are all self -contradictory, they don't match the

evidence, they themselves are an

argument.

It has something to do with the Bible.

Why do you believe in God?

My answer would have been,

hey, where?

And then I quote the Bible.

Because God says so here, God says so there.

Would you say that one of the dangers of philosophy is that the philosopher

tends, very often, to take things that have apparent

tension in the Bible, or things that are hard to understand, and they

find ways of explaining them that best satisfy their own presuppositions

to the issue, rather than really searching the whole counsel of God for an answer?

Well, they're guilty of twisting the word of God, and the Bible warns about

destruction.

They'll try to

point

out alleged,

or the power of God.

If you're the one that's made a mistake, the Bible is inerrant, and you can keep quoting verses that say the word of God

is true.

So you see, in biblical apologetics, you immediately turn it on them,

aggressively evangelistic.

And I don't mean you run over them.

You're very kind and patient with them, and it helps to smile.

Van Til used to say, offer to buy them the first cup of coffee.

You need to be very friendly, but you dare not give up the word of God, or you

will be accused, or

you will be,

it needs no proof of God.

I'd sooner buy the carriage, it'll defend itself.

When we quote the Bible, we are, as it were, unleashing the power of God,

power of God, and the chosen means the Holy Spirit

uses to enlighten us.

He does not use philosophical arguments and proofs.

Why don't we use it more?

And of course, there are philosophers, just to make it clear to our listeners, who believe

strongly in the inerrancy of Scripture, and would,

even if one were to think that they are violating Scripture with

traditions of men, or thoughts of men, they themselves would not

view it that way, I'm sure.

So the issue may be a more delicate one, as far as you don't want to go

overboard in vilifying a brother in Christ who identifies himself as a philosopher.

Well, there's a place.

One advantage is all you need to know is the Bible.

You don't need to know everything about the philosophical arguments.

One, do not do apologetics until you've studied

a lot of philosophy, and its history, and all the different schools, and taken college classes.

Does the average Christian have to do all of that?

Isn't that kind of a waste of time?

All we have to do is say, what is your argument?

Boil it down to a simple argument, and they can usually do that for us.

You can say, well, where do you disagree with us?

And then we say, what does the Bible say?

So the challenge isn't.

By the way, Dr. Jeffrey Waddington from Fawn Grove, Pennsylvania, and

also Christopher from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, you have both won a free

copy of The History and Theology of Calvinism.

So please make sure you get us your full mailing address so we can have cvbbs

.com, that's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, ship those books out to you.

And once again, we want to thank our dear friends at Evangelical

Press, also known as EP Books, for donating copies of this book

to those who have questions specifically, and only those with questions that have

not already won one of these books during the previous three interviews.

And by the way, before we go to the break, I just want to, I've already read some of the commendations on

previous programs, wonderful commendations from very prominent people

for this book, but right now I just want to list some of the great men who have

given glowing commendations to The History and Theology of Calvinism by Kurt Daniel.

We have John MacArthur, Senior Pastor of Grace Community Church, and also the world

-renowned Bible teacher on television and radio, and

prolific author.

Stephen J. Lawson, President of One Passion Ministries, and Tom

Nettles, a man that both my guest and I have grown to love, a

professor of church history in Louisville, Kentucky.

Michael A .G. Hagen, here's another man I'd love to interview, I hope I get him back on the show soon.

Michael A .G. Hagen, Chair and Professor of Church History in Louisville, Kentucky.

Phil Johnson, the Executive Director of Grace to You, John MacArthur's media ministry.

Phil Johnson has been interviewed on this program more than any other guest.

And Ian Hamilton, Professor of Systematic Theology in Edinburgh, Scotland, and I've

got to get Ian on this program.

He is the only one so far listed that I have not yet interviewed.

And another one in that category is Lance Quinn.

I've wanted to interview Lance for years, the Senior Pastor of Bethany Bible Church in Thousand Oaks, California.

That's just some of the people who have believed and who have had

possession of the manuscript years before this came out in print as a hardback, and

who have attributed much to this volume as far as their

own growing in the knowledge of the doctrines of grace in their own personal study.

But we are going to our first station break right now.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Armisen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with a little less than 90 minutes to go,

is Kurt Daniel.

And Dr. Kurt Daniel is pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois.

This is our fourth interview on his monumental 900 -page work, The History and Theology of

Calvinism.

If you'd like to join us on the air, email address is chrisarmisen at gmail .com.

Chrisarmisen at gmail .com.

Before I move on to another subcategory under the heading of Calvinism

that we didn't address in great depth in the previous three interviews,

which would be Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints.

I do have a question from Johnny in Queens, New York on apologetics.

And Johnny starts off, Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit,

according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not

according to Christ, Colossians 2 .8.

Would you say that Paul the apostle was arguing against worldly philosophy and

not all philosophy together, particularly biblically informed Christ -centered

philosophy?

Well, Paul does warn about philosophy there,

which is wisdom in the

old system.

That's one thing, but to try to merge biblical wisdom with

very dangerous...

And Johnny, just as a follow -up question, Dr. Greg Bonson taught presuppositional

apologetic as biblical apologetic, arguing the word of God as a

precondition of all knowledge.

Could you help me understand your distinction of how you, of how you're

understanding, I think that he is...

Oh, here it is.

Kate, could you help me understand your distinction of how you're understanding biblical apologetics is different?

Bonson was a great man.

He died young, I believe.

It's easier to understand than Van Tell is.

He moved in the right.

He didn't use it as much, like in that great debate.

That's the advantage of presuppositionalism over the other systems, is that it does say we need to use scripture.

But I think that we need to use it even more than...

Sorry about that.

I was pouring myself a cup of coffee.

Thank you, Johnny.

And you have also won a free copy of the book.

We are addressing the history and theology of Calvinism.

So make sure we have your full mailing address in Queens, New York.

And now we're moving on to another of the subcategories under the heading Calvinism

that I mentioned just moments ago.

Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints.

This is a highly controversial teaching, not only

between those who are reformed and those who would be full -blown

five -point Arminians who believe that a truly regenerate, born -again

person can actually lose his or her salvation, but also

between those who...

And I don't want to overstate the case or broad brush, but many within

dispensationalism and modern -day evangelicalism who

would prefer to use the term eternal security, which I

believe is a true description, but an inadequate and insufficient

description, because there's more going on than just someone's salvation being eternally secure.

Because of the fact that, as you well know, Dr. Daniel, that many in that

category, the latter category, would reject Perseverance and Preservation of the

Saints in that we believe that those who are truly born again will never

totally surrender to evil.

And if and when, and of course we all sin, but even if someone were

to fall into a state of backsliding or a serious, scandalous state of

sin for a certain period of time, they will always repent and return to

Christ.

That will be a hallmark of the truly regenerate person is that they will repent and

return to their first love.

But if you could tell us in your own thoughts why this is such an important teaching, and perhaps

contrast it with those two other views, Arminianism, which teaches you could lose your salvation,

or the carnal Christian theory, if you will, that a true

Christian can even, according to Charles Stanley, in his book on

eternal security, a true Christian can, moments after

coming to a true saving faith in Christ and being saved and being born again, moments afterward,

they could totally abandon that faith forever on this earth, and they will certainly be

in heaven nonetheless.

So if you could...

Quick answer to that is

that the

doctrines of grace

saved eternal Christians

do not believe that.

John Wesley, for example, A .W. Tozer, be saved one day and

lost the next day.

But I don't believe the Bible teaches that anywhere.

There are many verses to keep us, to

forsake us, and God takes an oath in that.

By the power of

Satan, remember,

may not fail, the devil wants you, Peter, but basically he's saying is, I prayed for you, he can't have you.

It's restored, just like usually backslides.

Jesus prayed

in the

Greek, they shall never, ever perish.

God not only promises

you all, never lose you, no one can have you, not the devil, not

the world.

I've got you and I'm not gonna let you go.

And so that's pretty ironclad promise.

Also, we've been predestined to be glorified.

Romans 8, the golden chain whom he foreknew, he predestined whom he predestined, he

justified and so forth.

There's no breaking of that chain.

We've been predestined to be justified and to be glorified.

Romans 8, there's no condemnation for those that are in Christ.

We're now on probation.

We've been granted a full justification and pardon

and preservation.

A lot of people forget is, this stuff of the doctrines

or graces, more than simply the preservation of the

saints.

What does that mean?

It means that God guarantees that we will not only not ever be lost, he guarantees that we

will continue to repent and to believe and to obey.

For example, John 3, 16 is in the present tense, not just, we'll believe once, that's all

it takes, and you can go back to your life of unbelief.

No, no, no.

Continues to believe.

And God not only commanded,

repent ye and believe, repent for the...

He did not mean that you repent once, but that the whole life.

So God not only demands,

puts us back on the straight and narrow.

Key passage on this is, manifest who are the children of

God and the children of the devil.

Children of the devil, practice, lives, characterize,

no fruit of the...

The children of the...

In fact, we have to let you pick up where you left off there when we return from our midway break.

This is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida,

requires of us a longer break in the middle because the FCC requires of them

the public service announcements and other local items that are aired during the show

to identify Iron Trip and Zion Radio with the local area of Lake City, Florida.

So while they air their own public service announcements and other things, we air our globally heard commercials.

We urge you to please write down as much of the information as possible provided by our advertisers so that you can more

frequently and successfully patronize them, which means they will likely remain our advertisers.

And that will be necessary for us to remain on the air since the finances that come through their advertising are

absolutely indispensable.

And so do that.

And also don't forget to write in questions to Kurt Daniel on the history and theology of Calvinism.

And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Chris Arnson, host of Iron Trip and Zion Radio here.

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Before we return to our guest today, I just have a couple of announcements to make.

Please, folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear, please, I'm urging you,

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whatever it is you want to publicize is compatible with what we believe, you don't have to believe identically with me,

but you need to be promoting the very least compatible with what I believe, then we will certainly help you launch an ad

campaign immediately.

And folks, please remember, especially in the wake of this

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Those two things are commands of God to provide for your church and your family.

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donate now.

And never forget folks, if you are without a church home, no matter where you live in the world, I may be able to help you

find a church.

I have already helped many people in our audience find churches in all parts of the

planet where these folks have joined these churches and become members, or they have visited them on

vacation, or they have referred them to other loved ones who are unaware of a church near them that's

biblically faithful.

Just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, I need a church in the subject line.

And that's also the email address to send in a question to Kurt Daniel.

On the history and theology of Calvinism, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And Dr. Daniel, we interrupted you having to go to our midway break

earlier, and you were in the middle of emphasizing the preservation

of the saints.

Actually, that's just preservation, but perseverance.

That's the perseverance.

I'm sorry.

Yes, there we go.

Yes.

It's what the Bible very clearly

the theory and practice called easy believism.

People do this, especially young people, and they think they're saved and they go to church and get excited.

It's

Christians

then.

What is that?

Hot shot youth evangelist.

Converts he made aren't going on.

Well, they said, well, they're not going on, but they're still saved.

Because once they're saved, they're preserved.

They say that as a true Christian.

Well, these people say, well, they're just a carnal Christian.

But they were truly saved.

I strongly disagree with that.

According to the Bible, they're not a carnal Christian.

They're carnal non -Christian.

And this can be proved and be referred to first

lifestyle of the devil.

You can't be a child of God and think and live like a child of the devil all the time.

To begin with, they're only living like what they truly are.

An atheist.

Others would say a practicing, unconfessed, homosexual or murderer or

any gross sin, but you're truly saved.

Now, this has practical application.

Many Christian parents that are truly saved raise their children by the Bible.

They go to Bible school,

youth group, and at some time along the line, those children, maybe repeat a prayer, invite Jesus into their heart.

And they're all so happy.

And then usually when they become teenagers or adults, when they leave the nest, maybe they go off to

college.

But little Susie or little Joey is still a believer because he invited Jesus into his heart.

But he's just that they

would not

be in flagrant disobedience.

They would continue to follow.

So you'd be doing them a favor by saying Susie or Johnny,

that thing I

tried and it's for little kids and I was duper.

And those are hard to win because they think

that you're not a Christian, but you can become a true Christian.

So you see this easy believism goes squarely against the Bible teaching

and faith without works is dead.

Easy believism says, nope, you can believe and never have good works.

You can have very many bad works as a way of life, but you're truly saved.

That's the very thing, James.

Chris, I've often found that people that still believe in

the shod, they usually come up with the story like, well, I knew

someone that received Jesus and I knew he was saved.

He's not living it now.

And we're way up,

luckily fallen to

people said, yeah, because you're once saved, always saved.

You can live as a carnal Christian for decades flagrantly, but God will bring you

back.

No, that's not what perseverance

God will bring them back after a reasonably short period of time or

work convictingly.

Curiously, even godly Armenians like John Wesley and A .W.

Tozer that don't believe in the preservation of the saints will believe in the perseverance of the saints

because they say unless you persevere, you're not going to make it.

And A .W. Tozer vehemently opposed easy believism in the carnal Christian era.

He

had to

keep

us.

Guaranteed we're going to make it to the end and

continue to follow.

Only keep us.

He will keep us.

Amen.

And don't you think a lot of this confusion when we

have friends and acquaintances and loved ones say that they are

certain that a true Christian can lose their salvation

is that they may know people for decades.

They may know somebody who has been a professing Christian their entire lives and not until their golden years

as a senior citizen fallen completely away.

And because they may love this person and they also may be saying to themselves how

could an unregenerate person be so faithful all those decades

like Bill was like Tom was like Sally was.

This person sacrificed all that they had for God and you could go on and on.

They may have been even a faithful pastor and preacher.

They may have been a missionary.

You could go on and on with the most stellar examples of Christianity

that unbeknownst to us they were they were

charlatans and they fell away and it's just hard for us to be to believe that we've

been duped like that.

Well as Christ

warned me not only Christians

but to pretend to be preachers.

Anonymous listener who says.

Since the Bible never gives a timeline when a true Christian can

fall into disobedience backsliding as some call it don't we have to be careful

not to with absolute certainty label a person as a false Christian when

they are in that state while at the same time knowing that it is our duty as

Christians to treat them as unbelievers.

My devotions yesterday and with Bathsheba

we need to give them the judgment of grace

church discipline

then the elders can give you to restoring him

very careful.

And by the way.

Anonymous if you give us your full name of course off the air and your mailing address you

have won a free copy of Kirk Daniel's book The History and Theology of Calvinism.

Thank you much for the excellent question and we let's see.

We have another anonymous question and the anonymous

questioner says.

Are there any marks that a backslidden Christian is

truly saved.

Or in other words are there certain things that even a backslider would never do.

For example we all know that a true Christian may commit adultery

as long as that person repents of that sin and even might commit murder in the heat of

passion.

But can a true Christian be an apostate actually reject and deny the gospel or

start proclaiming a false gospel.

Could could there be.

No he cannot deny the true gospel

upon the act like Peter when he was denying Jesus and

thanking God

for that sandwich.

What are you doing praying in a place like this.

And the man looks up and

says cannot.

He can only backslide the Corinthians

which will

get.

There's an example where even the best of Christians

but a true Christian.

Will.

And that's the Lord doing that in the

person he loves us not only too much to let us a power to

say.

Unreasonable time.

I like to say it's like holding your breath.

You can hold your breath maybe 30 seconds three or four minutes.

You can hold your breath for five.

You're dead.

Only.

Backslide.

And of course though as the as the listener said there is no exact timeline.

Yes.

That is in the inspired word.

It could be longer but the point is it's not perpetual.

There's the noticeable difference.

Now as far as just to clarify you said that a true Christian even in the

state of being backslidden and i know that i know that there is debate whether Christians should use that

term.

It's an old testament term i know that but for lack of a better way of describing a Christian a

truly regenerate person falling into scandalous sin like adultery or something

or like i did with.

Unrepentant.

Alcoholism for a period before returning to my senses by God's grace and being

restored into the faith.

Yes every Christian probably has

some weakness setting sin often God eventually gives them the

victory over that and that's just something in the past.

We're Christians we're within us that doesn't mean we're

not a Christian.

No as far as.

Gone when we get to heaven.

Amen.

But as far as a true Christian never being apostate even in the midst of

backsliddenness what about for instance

where we have the apostle Paul when he's addressing the church at Galatia.

He seems to treat the saints in Galatia

the the brothers and sisters in Galatia who have been deceived by the

Judaizers in a less harsh way although he does speak to them harshly

he speaks.

Very much so.

He speaks to them less harshly than the Judaizers themselves like for

instance he calls these people.

He says the Judaizers are heretics under the curse of God.

Right.

But this is a very strong warning to the Galatians that if they believe that false gospel

they should examine themselves.

You truly say.

Right.

That's the same thing with the Corinthians.

Well could it be possible though that temporarily a person is deceived like for instance a person might

be truly born again and be temporarily deceived into embracing the

council of Trent's understanding of salvation.

And then he later realizes what am I thinking.

This is just totally contrary to the true gospel.

And they report.

Well put if after a while.

But if he does if he continues to hold to a false gospel

he was saved.

So there's

only one sin

pardonable

totally

disapproval.

We have to go to our final break it will be much briefer than the last one and if you have a question I would strongly

advise you send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always give us your first name your city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter.

We'll be right back with Kurt Daniel after these messages.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air

like the Historical Bible Society.

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Thank you Daniel P. Buttafuoco attorney at law for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American

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This is Pastor Bill Souss of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron

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Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives

to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville maybe 10 minutes

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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always.

The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life bringing so many

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As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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We are now back with our final segment of our discussion on the history and theology of Calvinism with Dr. Kurt Daniel

and we have reached a point in the interview where I'd like to ask you about the election of angels.

It's an interesting subject, isn't it?

Yeah.

I guess we can conclude our discussion today with a little.

I'd always get people saved

and he

passed

angels.

The difference

is that

all humans have sinned to be saved.

They were chosen to

be preserved.

No, they will never.

What about angels that are not elect?

Well, that would be Satan and the demons.

They

would

be

saved.

None of them.

There's no salvation for

them.

Not if it's the gospel to them who are

ordained.

They're foul.

But then he passed over them.

There's some misunderstandings.

We are not chosen to replace them.

We do not become doomed

to go to

hell.

Depart into heaven.

We know that they're.

We know that they're.

They don't want to believe.

That's the election.

It's unfair of God.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York who asks, is there a possibility

that like there are some false Christians deceiving many, masquerading as

Christians and in reality they are not of the elect that there are some

angels still who are not of the elect masquerading as true angels in heaven?

Very definitely.

Eleven, he disguises himself as an angel of light.

Say yes.

Well, the questioner, I believe, said still.

Well, in other words.

Yes, I believe that this is one of the devices that fallen angels use is to pretend to be good

angels to lead us into.

Let me ask another question of my own to follow up.

When we enter into glory at this point in history those of us who are Christian and there

will no doubt be multitudes innumerable numbers of angels.

None of these angels will be able to sin because they are none of the

aforementioned unelect masquerading angels.

Yes, the elect angels are called.

We will origin together.

We will exchange testimonies about how God

did.

We were created low

above the angels.

They are the servants of Christ.

Beautiful heritage faith.

Well, I'd like you to take the next four minutes or so uninterrupted to summarize what

you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding the history and theology of Calvinism.

Well, it's not.

God's

word

should be

not only

truth called the doctrines of grace should move us not only to live a more holy

or put

our head on when we come to die

God elected love of God in our

heart.

Kurt, can you tell us about some projects you're working on now in addition to this book that's

already in print.

This massive 900 page monumental work of yours the history and theology of Calvinism.

What's next on your workshop?

Well, I've submitted two smaller books to it.

Excellent.

I'm also

working

on knowing that would be

on the extent of the atonement the history of the debates.

What does the Bible say?

So those are a few.

Oh, by the way, I do want to write more than one book on biblical apologetics.

So those are some of the projects I've been working on.

Well, great.

It looks like there's a lot more to look forward to from your pen and also a lot more interviews to look

forward to with you.

And I would love to have you back on in the very near future to address some other issue.

And I want to thank everybody who listened to this program if you had

so many things going through your minds today saying, oh, he didn't address this.

He didn't address that.

Well, number one, you can go to the three previous interviews we've had on Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio on the history and theology of Calvinism by going to ironsharpensironradio .com.

Click past shows podcast and then type in Kurt Daniel C

-U -R -T -D -A -N -I -E -L in the search engine and all of Dr.

Daniel's interviews will come up.

It will take several days before this one to be posted.

But all of the other three are there on the website right now.

So you can listen to those if you have already missed them.

Also, you can purchase the book The History and Theology of Calvinism.

And I would strongly urge you to do it at cvbbs .com.

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who sponsors this program.

They are actually a primary hub in the United States for

evangelical press publications.

They are the ones that publish the book EP books or evangelical press.

So since they are in the UK you can much more easily and affordably purchase the book

from cvbbs .com if indeed you live here in North America.

And obviously those folks listening who do live in the UK in Scotland more specifically.

You can go to epbooks .org epbooks .org.

Kurt, as I said before, it's been a joy having you on four times on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I look forward to having you on 44 times.

And don't forget folks you can look up more information for Faith Bible Church in Springfield, Illinois at

faithbibleonline .net faithbibleonline .net.

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior

than you are a sinner.