June 24, 2020 Show with Dr. Curt Daniel on “The History & Theology of Calvinism” (Part 4)

Biblical Apologetics and Defending Christianity from Scripture

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 24th day of June 2020.

And it's always a joy to have on the program someone who has become one of my very favorite guests to interview. That's Dr. Kurt Daniel. He is author and pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois.

And today we are having our fourth interview on his book, his 900-page hardback, The History and Theology of Calvinism. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the fourth time, Dr. Kurt Daniel.

Well, if you could, for the sake of our listeners who haven't heard you on the show yet, can you tell us something about Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois?

Yes, I've been in attendance for years, and we try to serve the Lord in all things.

Praise God. Well, if anybody has any questions regarding Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois, you can go to faithbibleonline .net. Faithbibleonline .net. Faithbibleonline .net. Well, we've covered a lot of issues over the previous three interviews that we've done on this book.

And I'm sure that when we're finished, there's going to be a lot more that we haven't addressed that we wish we had, but we only have the time. That is a lot to us. But perhaps if we could start with biblical apologetics in the realm of the doctrines of Calvinism.

Jump in? Yes. Got it. I do have a chapter on it that's a little different than Rationalism. There's another approach in Scotland, but it's not specifically Reformed. Norman Geisler and others that are very definitely not.

Then there are two other forms that are popular, mainly amongst Calvinists, called Reformed Antigua and Nicholas Wolterstam. Somewhat on the left wing of the Calvinist movement, like at Calvin Seminary, Calvinism.

This is popular in those circles. One problem with this approach is that it's very, very soft. So it doesn't bring in the Bible. It's not too big on evidences and arguments. It emphasizes warrants. You don't have to have absolute certainty.

If there's enough warrant to warrant convict someone on the bulk of evidence, it doesn't mean beyond the shadow of a doubt, but beyond a reasonable doubt. So it's like he's saying, well, it doesn't have to be proved.

There are many things we know that we don't have to prove. Fifty years ago, what's called presuppositional, Abraham Kuyper in the Netherlands in the late 1800s, the teachers at Westminster Seminary, Greg Bonson, Scott Oliphant, and many others have taught.

One advantage of this is that, as far as I know, only Calvinists believe in this presuppositional approach. And there are varieties. The late Francis Schaefer taught a modified form of this. And the Vandillians often argued, even until today.

Arkansas, because they're both in heaven. What this approach says is, warrants, proofs, arguments are not sufficient. What we do is we challenge the presupposition of those that are arguing against Christianity.

Presupposition is like an unconscious assumption you have. And so this approach says it's very antithetical. We don't use their argument. We use a different one. I held to that for many, many years, because it was still very common amongst us.

But I came to see that each of these approaches still uses two different arguments. So there's the groundwork. All of this is within an evangelical way of defending the faith. But the approach I put forth is saying, let's be more biblical.

In fact, it's biblical.

Well, if you could start to explain that in a little bit more detail as to what makes biblical apologetics more biblical than, let's say, presuppositionalism to start with, because obviously all Christian apologists would say that their version of apologetics would be biblical, or the most faithful to the scriptures.

But if you could.

Okay. Well, I came up with the term McManus. What Balcombe uses is expository, a found the Bible. We use the Bible to defend Christianity. The Bible is sufficient in counseling, because counselors had used an integrationist approach.

They'd use the Bible, but they'd also use the findings of secular psychology, sociology, and so forth. They'd borrow from Meade, but Meade's are basically spiritual in nature, so the Bible is to say that we need a revolution in apologetics to say we don't need to borrow from what is the popular philosophy of today, such as, we don't need to use those weapons against them.

We've got the weapons of the three priests as our proof. That's not just what you can use in defending Christians, but that's answering the objections of non-Christians. So we use the Bible to defend Christianity.

We have a question from a listener, and as you may have witnessed already over these previous three interviews we've done with you, brother, whenever I get a question from a pastor whose church I feel very confident I can promote, because I believe it's a biblically sound and faithful and valuable church.

I give more than a first name and city and state. I give the entirety of their name and the church and so on. And that is the case with our first question, which comes from Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, who is pastor of Faith Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Fawn Grove, Pennsylvania.

And by the way, folks, if you ever want to look up that church and find out more about it, the website is faithopc .net. Faithopc .net. And Dr. Waddington asks, What is Kurtz's assessment of the Calvin versus the Calvinists debate?

Well, that's a different issue. I do address it briefly a few times in my book. ...Calvin's theology consistently, or did they take a... I think by and large there was continuity, but a couple of points of discontinuity.

I just thought it might be an agreement.

Obviously, an exception you might take would be with hyper-Calvinists, some who believe they're actually carrying on correctly the legacy of Calvin, and others who have gone so extreme in their hyper-Calvinism that they don't even believe Calvin himself was saved.

Well, there's a better case to be made for more disjunction between the hyper-Calvinists and Calvin Baptist belief. The thing is, Calvin believed in a universe, and we get back to the biblical apologetics, because someone's going to say, well, you say it's biblical, but how does it operate?

Well, go ahead, answer your own question.

We don't use...the Bible warns us about the devil's war. There's no Christian philosophy any more than Christian adultery. Biblical apologetics is like this. We hear an objection or a question, and then we boil it down to, what do they actually disagree with us on?

Then we do a search in our mind and say, now, how does the Bible... We quote it, we explain it, we apply it to that specific... In effect, we're saying, it is written, or thus says, the Bible says... For example, I used to do a lot of open-air straight evangelism ...of objections.

Prove to me there's a God. I'd say, well, God proves it himself. In the Bible, God says, I am God, not the Bible. He proves his own existence. To me, the Bible is an objection. They'll say, well, for example, I believe everything is relative, or you make your own...

Well, that's not what God says in the Bible. This is what God... ...17. Ethics are not relative. The Bible says, thou shalt... I keep quoting... You see, God's not on trial. A lot of apologetics says, well, God's on trial, and we have to answer the objections of non-Christians to their satisfaction in order for them to believe.

I say, it's the exact opposite. God's not on trial. They are on trial, so we turn the tables, and that's part of evangelism. We dare not say, well, apologetics is just almost as a game to show that they know more or that they've won an argument.

We dare not lose... The idea is that we're trying to tell people that they could be saved. It's evangelistic from the Bible. If they say, well, stop quoting the Bible to me, that's like getting into a fight with someone, and he says, hey, put that club down or put that gun or that knife down.

We do that, we're gonna be at his mercy. Another thing is if we start using their philosophy against them, chances are they're gonna know more about their philosophy than we do, especially if you come up against a scientist or a philosophy major at college, they're gonna wrap us around their little finger.

So what we dare not do, these other systems are saying, you fight fire with fire, and you gotta know all about their philosophy in order to distance yourself from their philosophy. In essence, that Bible is God's ordained means whereby he gives faith, he gives...

We wanna get the Bible... Now, to the OPC brother, I would say, you probably learned presuppositionalism in Brant Hill, but he didn't quote the Bible or exegete it enough.

Presuppositionalism, Evidentialism, and the Bible as God's Ordained Means

Oh, that's an interesting admission from Brant Hill. Let's see here, we have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York. And Christopher asks, I know that you've made it clear that your approach to biblical apologetics is different from both evidentialism and presuppositionalism, but would you say that either of them are closer to an accurate model?

I know that there are great men of God from the Reformed tradition who have disagreed over this. We have Bonson on one side being a presuppositionalist and R .C. Sproul on the other being an evidentialist, but were either of those closer to what you would call biblical apologetics?

Yes, by the way, those two brothers were reconciled in heaven, and they did a lot of great work in the kingdom of God. Sproul and Bonson had a debate, disagreed on the methods of apologetics, and yet they were both strong Calvinists.

My opinion, presuppositionalism, certain weaknesses. Ago, Greg Bonson's debate.

Gordon Stein?

Oh, in any debate, it comes down to one key question. And I remember when the debate took a special turn, it's kind of like giving him a dunk shot and said, okay, thus and so. And Bonson says, why do I believe the Bible?

Because of the impossibility of the concept that you keep finding in presuppositionalism, that the alternatives are all self-contradictory, they don't match the evidence, they themselves are an argument.

It has something to do with the Bible. Why do you believe in God? My answer would have been, hey, where? And then I quote the Bible. Because God says so here, God says so there.

Would you say that one of the dangers of philosophy is that the philosopher tends, very often, to take things that have apparent tension in the Bible, or things that are hard to understand, and they find ways of explaining them that best satisfy their own presuppositions to the issue, rather than really searching the whole counsel of God for an answer?

Well, they're guilty of twisting the word of God, and the Bible warns about destruction. They'll try to point out alleged, or the power of God. If you're the one that's made a mistake, the Bible is inerrant, and you can keep quoting verses that say the word of God is true.

So you see, in biblical apologetics, you immediately turn it on them, aggressively evangelistic. And I don't mean you run over them. You're very kind and patient with them, and it helps to smile. Van Til used to say, offer to buy them the first cup of coffee.

You need to be very friendly, but you dare not give up the word of God, or you will be accused, or you will be, it needs no proof of God. I'd sooner buy the carriage, it'll defend itself. When we quote the Bible, we are, as it were, unleashing the power of God, power of God, and the chosen means the Holy Spirit uses to enlighten us.

He does not use philosophical arguments and proofs. Why don't we use it more?

And of course, there are philosophers, just to make it clear to our listeners, who believe strongly in the inerrancy of Scripture, and would, even if one were to think that they are violating Scripture with traditions of men, or thoughts of men, they themselves would not view it that way, I'm sure.

So the issue may be a more delicate one, as far as you don't want to go overboard in vilifying a brother in Christ who identifies himself as a philosopher.

Well, there's a place. One advantage is all you need to know is the Bible. You don't need to know everything about the philosophical arguments. One, do not do apologetics until you've studied a lot of philosophy, and its history, and all the different schools, and taken college classes.

Does the average Christian have to do all of that? Isn't that kind of a waste of time? All we have to do is say, what is your argument? Boil it down to a simple argument, and they can usually do that for us.

You can say, well, where do you disagree with us? And then we say, what does the Bible say? So the challenge isn't.

By the way, Dr. Jeffrey Waddington from Fawn Grove, Pennsylvania, and also Christopher from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, you have both won a free copy of The History and Theology of Calvinism.

So please make sure you get us your full mailing address so we can have cvbbs .com, that's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, ship those books out to you. And once again, we want to thank our dear friends at Evangelical Press, also known as EP Books, for donating copies of this book to those who have questions specifically, and only those with questions that have not already won one of these books during the previous three interviews.

And by the way, before we go to the break, I just want to, I've already read some of the commendations on previous programs, wonderful commendations from very prominent people for this book, but right now I just want to list some of the great men who have given glowing commendations to The History and Theology of Calvinism by Kurt Daniel.

We have John MacArthur, Senior Pastor of Grace Community Church, and also the world-renowned Bible teacher on television and radio, and prolific author. Stephen J. Lawson, President of One Passion Ministries, and Tom Nettles, a man that both my guest and I have grown to love, a professor of church history in Louisville, Kentucky.

Michael A .G. Hagen, here's another man I'd love to interview, I hope I get him back on the show soon. Michael A .G. Hagen, Chair and Professor of Church History in Louisville, Kentucky. Phil Johnson, the Executive Director of Grace to You, John MacArthur's media ministry.

Phil Johnson has been interviewed on this program more than any other guest. And Ian Hamilton, Professor of Systematic Theology in Edinburgh, Scotland, and I've got to get Ian on this program. He is the only one so far listed that I have not yet interviewed.

And another one in that category is Lance Quinn. I've wanted to interview Lance for years, the Senior Pastor of Bethany Bible Church in Thousand Oaks, California. That's just some of the people who have believed and who have had possession of the manuscript years before this came out in print as a hardback, and who have attributed much to this volume as far as their own growing in the knowledge of the doctrines of grace in their own personal study.

But we are going to our first station break right now. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

As always, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints

Call 1 -800 -669 -4870. Welcome back. This is Chris Armisen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with a little less than 90 minutes to go, is Kurt Daniel. And Dr. Kurt Daniel is pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois.

This is our fourth interview on his monumental 900-page work, The History and Theology of Calvinism. If you'd like to join us on the air, email address is chrisarmisen at gmail .com. Chrisarmisen at gmail .com.

Before I move on to another subcategory under the heading of Calvinism that we didn't address in great depth in the previous three interviews, which would be Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints.

I do have a question from Johnny in Queens, New York on apologetics. And Johnny starts off, Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ, Colossians 2 .8.

Would you say that Paul the apostle was arguing against worldly philosophy and not all philosophy together, particularly biblically informed Christ-centered philosophy?

Well, Paul does warn about philosophy there, which is wisdom in the old system. That's one thing, but to try to merge biblical wisdom with very dangerous...

And Johnny, just as a follow-up question, Dr. Greg Bonson taught presuppositional apologetic as biblical apologetic, arguing the word of God as a precondition of all knowledge. Could you help me understand your distinction of how you, of how you're understanding, I think that he is...

Oh, here it is. Kate, could you help me understand your distinction of how you're understanding biblical apologetics is different?

Bonson was a great man. He died young, I believe. It's easier to understand than Van Tell is. He moved in the right. He didn't use it as much, like in that great debate. That's the advantage of presuppositionalism over the other systems, is that it does say we need to use scripture.

But I think that we need to use it even more than...

Sorry about that. I was pouring myself a cup of coffee. Thank you, Johnny. And you have also won a free copy of the book. We are addressing the history and theology of Calvinism. So make sure we have your full mailing address in Queens, New York.

And now we're moving on to another of the subcategories under the heading Calvinism that I mentioned just moments ago. Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints. This is a highly controversial teaching, not only between those who are reformed and those who would be full-blown five-point Arminians who believe that a truly regenerate, born-again person can actually lose his or her salvation, but also between those who...

And I don't want to overstate the case or broad brush, but many within dispensationalism and modern-day evangelicalism who would prefer to use the term eternal security, which I believe is a true description, but an inadequate and insufficient description, because there's more going on than just someone's salvation being eternally secure.

Because of the fact that, as you well know, Dr. Daniel, that many in that category, the latter category, would reject Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints in that we believe that those who are truly born again will never totally surrender to evil.

And if and when, and of course we all sin, but even if someone were to fall into a state of backsliding or a serious, scandalous state of sin for a certain period of time, they will always repent and return to Christ.

That will be a hallmark of the truly regenerate person is that they will repent and return to their first love. But if you could tell us in your own thoughts why this is such an important teaching, and perhaps contrast it with those two other views, Arminianism, which teaches you could lose your salvation, or the carnal Christian theory, if you will, that a true Christian can even, according to Charles Stanley, in his book on eternal security, a true Christian can, moments after coming to a true saving faith in Christ and being saved and being born again, moments afterward, they could totally abandon that faith forever on this earth, and they will certainly be in heaven nonetheless.

So if you could...

Quick answer to that is that the doctrines of grace saved eternal Christians do not believe that. John Wesley, for example, A .W. Tozer, be saved one day and lost the next day. But I don't believe the Bible teaches that anywhere.

There are many verses to keep us, to forsake us, and God takes an oath in that. By the power of Satan, remember, may not fail, the devil wants you, Peter, but basically he's saying is, I prayed for you, he can't have you.

It's restored, just like usually backslides. Jesus prayed in the Greek, they shall never, ever perish. God not only promises you all, never lose you, no one can have you, not the devil, not the world.

I've got you and I'm not gonna let you go. And so that's pretty ironclad promise. Also, we've been predestined to be glorified. Romans 8, the golden chain whom he foreknew, he predestined whom he predestined, he justified and so forth.

There's no breaking of that chain. We've been predestined to be justified and to be glorified. Romans 8, there's no condemnation for those that are in Christ. We're now on probation. We've been granted a full justification and pardon and preservation.

A lot of people forget is, this stuff of the doctrines or graces, more than simply the preservation of the saints. What does that mean? It means that God guarantees that we will not only not ever be lost, he guarantees that we will continue to repent and to believe and to obey.

For example, John 3, 16 is in the present tense, not just, we'll believe once, that's all it takes, and you can go back to your life of unbelief. No, no, no. Continues to believe. And God not only commanded, repent ye and believe, repent for the...

He did not mean that you repent once, but that the whole life. So God not only demands, puts us back on the straight and narrow. Key passage on this is, manifest who are the children of God and the children of the devil.

Children of the devil, practice, lives, characterize, no fruit of the... The children of the...

In fact, we have to let you pick up where you left off there when we return from our midway break. This is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle because the FCC requires of them the public service announcements and other local items that are aired during the show to identify Iron Trip and Zion Radio with the local area of Lake City, Florida.

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It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing. We're a diverse family of all ages.