"Come Out In Jesus Name" Critique - Part 1

All right, welcome to the HolyNope podcast. I am the HolyNope and with me is David Lovey. Hello, David.

Hello, how's it going, man? It's going super great.

I'm excited to talk about our topic for today, which is the documentary about Greg Locke. I mean about Deliverance Ministry, which is called.

Come Out in Jesus Name. Yeah, I'm excited about that too, even though it's a it's a filthy dirty task, but somebody has to do it.

Yes, I would I would describe the experience of watching it when I think I've seen it now at least twice. It's painful, a little infuriating at times, and I think primarily because of the way that scripture is presented in the film to support a doctrine that is being read into scripture.

The scripture twisting is very problematic in my opinion, and that's some of the stuff that we want to talk about. Come Out in Jesus Name is a documentary about the Deliverance Ministry movement that is taking place, really seems to be sweeping across much of the the Western world at least with prominent leaders such as Greg Locke, Vlad Zavchuk, Alexander Pagani, men like Daniel Adams and Katherine Crick, and people like this and now a whole bunch of other people who don't have as big of recognition are hopping on the Demon Slayer bandwagon with a doctrine that essentially states that Christians need deliverance just as much as people of the world who are not Christians, who are unbelievers, that Christians can be inhabited and therefore oppressed by demons from which they need deliverance even after being reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ, that there is subsequent freedom that must take place in order to live a full and victorious Christian life.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah, that's what they teach. I believe that that pernicious error both adds to the finished work of Christ and strangely enough at the same time detracts from the finished work of Christ and I'm sure that that's something that we're going to get into as we talk about this, but it detracts, I'll start with the second, it detracts from the finished work of Christ because what they're, what these people you just mentioned are teaching is that what Christ did on the cross was not enough.

You need to have this extra thing. Demons have not been overcome. We are not more than conquerors in Christ. We need them and in that sense then they add also to the finished work of Christ teachings stating that we need the secrets that only they possess in order to be freed from demonic possession, oppression, demonizami, being demonized as believers in Jesus.

So there's these two ways that they fall into the ditch and they're bringing many, many people with them. There's a lot to unpack.

With everything that is involved in deliverance ministry that they teach is involved in deliverance ministry including there's the collecting of anecdotal data and getting information from demons themselves as so to inform them on how to do deliverance and when you peek behind the scenes it becomes quite obvious that the whole shtick of having a short conversation with a demon, finding out its name, finding out how it got in, and then casting it out.

It's a formula. It's a show. It's a performance, I think, most of the time. But as you mentioned it, what we ultimately want to get into is the impact that this, well, what is quite literally a doctrine of demons has on the gospel itself.

Does it have gospel implications and are those who are subscribing to deliverance ministry theology, are they believing a different gospel? I think that's a very important question that we ultimately want to answer as we dive into this topic.

So let's go ahead and play our first clip from the documentary.

Preached cute and motivational pop psychology sermons for years to people in our churches that are full of oppression, bitterness, unforgiveness, molestation, bondage, nightmares, panic attacks. And we tell them they can have all the peace and joy in the world and they sit there wondering within themselves, well, what's wrong with me?

Because that message doesn't resonate with me. So I tell people you can do anything you want to in chains except one thing. You can have chains, you can raise your hands and sing, you can drive a car, you can come to church, you can tithe, you can fast, you can pray, you can dance in the aisle.

The only thing you cannot do in chains is be free.

The only thing you cannot do in chains is be free. And then of course, they will throw up scriptures on the screen throughout the documentary that I think are important for our conversation and understanding how they point to scripture and use scripture to support their doctrine.

So Greg Locke is right, I think, David, that pop psychology sermons are not going to help the people of God. Wherever pop psychology or moral therapeutic deism is preached in church buildings across the nation, the people of God are likely not being fed from God's Word.

And the answer, the correction that needs to take place, well, it isn't the direction that Greg Locke has decided to go in. Unfortunately, he has found an unbiblical solution to that problem. And rather than preaching the Bible verse by verse through books of the Bible, rather than applying the scriptures to the afflictions of God's people that he lists here, that people have been through trauma, people are suffering in different ways, rather than applying the scriptures to the afflictions of God's people from the pulpit, and with the aid of biblical counseling, he has chosen deliverance ministry.

Yeah, what I perceived in what he just said is the craftiness with which he made his argument. Because I also would absolutely agree that psychology as a whole, as a discipline, actually, is off base, starts from the wrong place, has no place in the pulpit.

It has no place in the preaching of the Word, pop psychology or psychology in general. And so on that, I think we would agree. And who is he appealing to then? He's appealing to those for whom pop psychology sermons have not been effective.

Now, of course, they're not effective, right? They're actually not. So he's appealing to people who have found what he's calling pop psychology sermons ineffective and saying, you don't need that. Rather, what you need is what I have.

And the reason you're not free is not because of your flesh or not because of a lack of repentance or not because of a lack of the preaching of the gospel. But the reason you're not free as a Christian is because you have demons living inside.

That's the conclusion that he's about to come to, right? But, and I don't know if you want to go here yet, but I just immediately as he was talking, I immediately thought of Galatians chapter 5 verse 1.

It was for freedom that Christ set us free. Therefore, keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. I'm sure we're going to talk about this more as we go on, Austin. But this is something that Christ is able to do through the preaching of the word, as he says in John 8, that if you are truly my disciples, you will continue in my word and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

But that's not where Greg is going with this.

Yeah, so immediately we are being told that there is a freedom which Christians do not yet enjoy and from which they are being held back by demonic spirits, which is, of course, immediately troubling.

So it's a lot easier, as we'll see, to take a few scriptures and twist them to support your practice of yelling at demons than it is to preach the word in a deep and life-giving way. You can see that they've got Ephesians chapter 6 up here on the screen.

And throughout the documentary, as I said, they will post verses on the screen. Virtually every one of them is taken out of context. This first one, Ephesians 6, I actually just did a video on. And I think, David, that it is probably the most often pointed-to text to support deliverance theology.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood and the idea imported onto the text is that when we are doing deliverance and having this power encounter with evil spirits, that those moments are the wrestling that Paul is describing in Ephesians 6.

That we are actually to engage with weapons and tools and strategies in hand-to-hand combat with demonic forces.

Yeah. The problem with that is we don't see that as a prescription for the church. We don't see doing hand-to-hand combat with the devil, talking to the devil, finding out what the names of specific demons are for us to then go and claim the right or the authority over them.

I mean, I think Jude actually talks about that too. That even Michael, the archangel, wasn't willing to directly rebuke the devil. But he said, the Lord rebuke you when they were arguing over the body of Moses.

So the fact that these people are trying to say that Christians should do that, which even the pure angels of God are unwilling to do, and Jude specifically warns about that there are people who don't even realize what they're messing with when they try to engage in this nonsense that Greg Locke and these guys are trying to do.

Just to read the text that you were referencing from Jude 9,. But when Michael, the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, the Lord rebuke you.

But these men, and it's interesting how Jude identifies false teachers by the way he describes them. And repeatedly throughout his letter, I think four or five times, he marks them as these men, these men.

And he is saying to the recipients of his letter that these men are identifiable. It's these men, these are the ones about whom I'm speaking. You can see them, you can point them out, you can mark them, he says.

But these men revile the things which they do not understand, and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroying.

I would go so far as to say that Jude is referring to the men that we're talking about right now. And that's my opinion, that these people are doing the exact thing that Jude is talking about. They're the ones who are actually doing it.

It's like when the Bible says that false Christs and false prophets are in the world, or they're like going out into the world, they're in the world. Then what that means is that there is such a thing as a false prophet and a false teacher.

They are there. So it's like Jude is speaking about somebody. Who is he referring to? He's referring to the people who are doing the very thing that he says dumb brute beasts do, which is rebuking that of which they have no understanding whatsoever.

And they're claiming to be wise. They're fools. They're not wise. They don't have special wisdom. They don't have special knowledge. They don't have secrets to deliverance. What these guys are teaching and selling is a lie straight from the pit.

Yeah.

And what is ironic is that the verses that they post in support of their doctrine throughout the documentary often serve as a rebuttal to their doctrine. And if we were to take Ephesians 6, for example, understanding this text in context, we realize that it has absolutely nothing to do with deliverance ministry, with casting out demons in the traumatic way that they do, and yelling at demons, and breaking strongholds in the name of Jesus, and using the name of Jesus like an incantation, and binding Satan in rebuking evil spirits, and commanding them to come out and having conversations with them.

Ephesians 6 has nothing to do with that. We are told there to stand firm four times in the text. To stand firm. And that is how we wage spiritual warfare. Standing firm is understood in light of all that came before Ephesians 6, that obeying the practical application of the theology contained in the first three chapters, and walking, as Paul says in Romans 4 .1, in a manner worthy of your calling, doing that, living in obedience to the gospel, in which you are blessed with the great salvation that Paul describes, is the way that we stand firm against the attacks of Satan and the enemy.

And so when we put on the armor, I don't know about you, David, but I was raised, or I wasn't raised, but early on in my Christian life, I was taught that the armor of God is something that is supposed to be put on daily, ritualistically, and if you can not only repeat the passage as you put it on, and pray through what the belt teaches me about truth, and what the breastplate teaches me about righteousness, and what the helmet teaches me about salvation, and you do that, then you are going to be, you know, extra protected against the schemes of the devil, and the attacks of the enemy that you might encounter for that day.

But when we look at the text, it's not about what the different pieces of armor teach us about those graces that are listed, righteousness, peace, salvation, the Holy Spirit. What teaches us about those graces is the way that Paul develops those themes in the rest of the letter.

And so it's not about me putting on the helmet as if the helmet teaches me about salvation. Now what has Paul already taught us about salvation in Ephesians? And so it's my life conformed to the will of God through Christ Jesus, and walking in obedience to the gospel that has saved me, is how I am waging warfare against the devil.

And me living in obedience and faith in Christ, I'm able to stand against the devil. I'm able to stand firm in my faith so that the devil cannot harm me. I made a video explaining Ephesians 6 in response to a young man who had put out a video in order to prove that birds can be monitoring spirits.

And so he went to a tree in which a bird was hanging out, and put his hand on the tree and started praying in tongues very loudly under the tree until the bird flew away. And in his defense, because I noped that video, in his defense he cited Ephesians chapter 6.

He also dabbles in deliverance ministry, no surprise.

I was a bird, I would fly away too.

Yes, understanding these texts in their context, it really lays a death blow to their system of doctrine. But presenting these texts out of context can be very convincing and persuasive to those who don't understand how to read their Bible.

And that's what these teachers rely on.

At that moment, I was shocked and I was more embarrassed than I was ignorant of how to help that girl than anything else. And I was in a church one night in South Carolina pastored by Henry Schaffer. He brings me in the office after I got through preaching.

I thought I was going to be scolded in the principal's office. He said, I want to talk to you about something. I don't even know what I'm going to tell you. I want to talk to you about deliverance ministry.

And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. This cannot be accidental. This has to be providential. And we just told the Lord, if you'll teach us, if you'll show us how to do this, how to perform deliverance, we'll do it.

And so when we started to develop a heart for deliverance ministry, we still hadn't told anybody about that. My wife had ordered a book off of Amazon. Somebody had recommended it to her called The Secrets to Deliverance by a guy named Alexander Pagani.

He's a pastor in the Bronx. And I was like, who is this guy?

I picked it up.

I read the back of it, the front of it, and just began to peruse through the book. And it was unbelievably amazing how powerful, how biblical, and how simplistic it was. And that book was the very thing that took away the cloudiness and a lot of the questions that we had.

And it really sealed the deal for us as far as deliverance ministry was concerned.

So what got Greg Locke into deliverance ministry, what sealed the deal for him, was a special little book by one Apostle Alexander Pagani. This sent them over the edge. This got them convinced. This taught them foundationally how to do deliverance ministry.

David, you and I have both now read this book. Your general thoughts on it?

Yeah, best book since Pilgrim's Progress.

It's up there for sure.

Sorry, I shouldn't joke, honestly. This is a pile of manure, this book by Pagani. Man, it's shocking that Greg Locke, all this says to me when he's like, it's so thoroughly biblical. I'm like, really?

There's nothing biblical at all about the secrets to deliverance. Where do we find in the Bible, perhaps in the book of First Assumptions, that verse that talks about anal demons? Because that's what Alexander Pagani writes about in there, which of course some people have already made videos on that, which I think needs to be exposed.

But like, maybe that's the wrong word. But what I'm just saying is, man, is that all that book is, because you asked me what are my thoughts on it, here's my thoughts. All that book, that Secrets to Deliverance book, is just the thoughts of a depraved, sinful man who is leading people astray and who potentially is writing those things actually because a demon is telling him to write those things, which is so like, it's so bizarre and shocking.

I mean, I would say don't waste your money if you're watching this. Don't buy this book. There's enough reviews of it out there. We're hopefully going to do a review of the book in our Holy Note podcast for you so that you don't have to waste your time and lose brain cells reading it.

But there's nothing biblical about it whatsoever. Absolutely not.

So it goes, as he tells it in the book, that he had a deliverance experience himself. A demon was hiding in his chest, and then he had a dream in which a well-known ministry leader hands him a book with golden letters in the dream that says, The Secrets to Deliverance.

And he says that since that time, his spirit has been receiving download after download of revelation on the subject of demons and especially how they reside within the body and the soul of a Christian.

So I agree with you, David. The book is awful. So Pagani claims to, he claims repeatedly referring to his teaching throughout the book as revelation, that the substance of his teaching is revelation from the Holy Spirit.

And that's why he begins the book in the acknowledgence. The opening sentence of the book is, I thank you, Holy Spirit, for entrusting me with these secrets. And so he is getting Gnostic downloads of revelation by which he is teaching what he does in his book and in his itinerant ministry.

So he abuses Scripture in order to support this supposed revelation. And so you and I have read the book. The way that he takes Scripture and causes it to mean something other than what it could possibly mean is, it's an infuriating thing to read when he takes Psalm 7 and says, You rid my soul in pieces.

And he takes that to be a literal anatomy of the soul, that there are 90 rooms in our soul, which corresponds to the temple. And his whole hermeneutical process just demonstrates that he is not qualified to teach.

And so for anybody, anybody with sense, the fact that this book is the foundation of Greg Locke's understanding of deliverance and therefore the launching pad of his entire ministry is massively problematic.

Pagani claims to be sola scriptura. That's how he says it. But I find that to be a false claim from this guy. He's not sola scriptura. The Bible is not his ultimate and final authority. He says the opposite of that in the book, stating what you just said, that he receives direct downloads of information from God.

And even that, such a bizarre way to even put that, downloads, like his brain is a computer, and God is downloading software into his brain. And the sad part about it is, for real actual Christians who hear Bible verses being quoted, right, and hear Christianese coming out of the mouth of a guy like Pagani or a guy like Greg Locke, if they're not taught well in the scriptures, they can be tossed about by every wind of doctrine.

Like this is what's happening with the followers of these people, is they're tossing them about. Like sound hermeneutical principles are thrown right out the window. It doesn't matter what the original context of the scripture says in the Psalms.

Who cares? There's 90 rooms in your soul. Like wow, that sounds super interesting, and what incredible insight this person has into the Bible. Except it's not insight into the Bible at all. That's just insight into Alexander Pagani's wicked imagination, trying to put things, imply things in the text that aren't actually there.

And by doing that, he's actually adding to the word of God. Why are we making this? We're not making this video because like, you just don't like these guys. That's not why. It's because these people are leading well-meaning, well-intentioned Christians who don't have a firm foundation, or those who think that they're Christians and they're really not, they're leading those people further away from Jesus.

That's what they're doing, and that's the reason why we're spending time making a video like this. I don't know if you've heard it, I'm sure you have, Austin, doing the Holy Note, where you've heard people say things to you like, you know, can't you just get along, man?

Christ doesn't want us to rip each other apart. The church is eating itself from the inside out. Look at how your whole page is dedicated to attacking these brothers. Have you heard that?

Yeah, I get those comments all the time, that the work that I do on the Holy Note is divisive, that it's dividing the body of Christ, that it's sowing discord or causing division. Here's what Jude says about false teachers and divisions.

We have another identifying phrase from Jude in verse 19. These are the ones, he says, these are the ones who cause divisions. He doesn't say divisiveness at the feet of those who identify false teachers, but at the feet of the false teachers themselves.

They are the ones who are divisive to the body, not those who are standing on the faith once delivered to the apostles, on the historic faith of the Christian church, on actual Sola Scriptura, where we believe that the Bible is our authority, and not downloads of Revelation by this wicked man out in Brooklyn somewhere.

They are the ones that are actually dividing the church, and we're standing on the truth of the Word of God. And this is tragic, and it's sad, but it has to be done. If we don't, if not just us, but if others who also stand on the Word of God aren't actually carrying out what Ephesians, what is it, Ephesians 5 .11, that talks about exposing the works of darkness, if we're not doing that, then we're not doing our job.

Our job actually is, as shepherds of the flock, to protect the sheep from wool.

And when I was willing to get up and say, okay, God, I'm about to embarrass myself and really preach a true Bible message. I'm going to go deep in the theology of the ministry of Jesus and see what happens.

And when I announced it, they were there long before me. It was almost like the church was saying, we've been waiting on you. We've been waiting on you. Where have you been all these years? This is what we wanted, because deliverance is the awakening that the church has been waiting on.

In the New Testament, is it verifiable that Christians can be attacked and oppressed by demons?

Yes.

People are in need. They need help and they're seeking help. And their pride is out the door.

The atmosphere is so charged in here right now. It's just charged.

Christians can be under the influence of satanic oppression. A hundred percent they can. Evil spirits consider bodies their houses because the spirit is a person without a body.

You can just feel in the atmosphere in the spirit. People are so hungry.

We're going to go deep into the theology, Greg Locke says. And then he proceeds to quote directly from Pagani's book about a spirit needing a body because a body is a house, because a spirit is a person without a body who needs a house.

Have they always needed a house? I wonder what he's saying there. That the devils, what, they're homeless or something? If they don't live inside of a person?

There's certainly nothing deep about Pagani's theology. And I think what's interesting about this clip and this documentary is a little misleading, I think, because it's not really about deliverance. It's about Greg Locke and that becomes more plain as you watch it.

This is about the Demon Slayer community's affirmation of Greg Locke and them also, I think, kind of riding the train of his popularity. So we're not getting a deep presentation or defense of their position.

He says we're going to go deep into the theology. They put that clip in there. But then the preaching clip that they show is just him affirming the doctrine. Can Christians have demons? Yes, they can.

OK. Right. It's not being proven here in this documentary. It's not being demonstrated or defended from scripture. They're just scriptures are just being thrown up on the screen throughout. I think what's interesting is the synonymous usage, especially by Mrs. Locke there between the atmosphere and the spirit as if a charged atmosphere is a sign of the spirit's presence.

But I think what happens when you when you get a room full of people expecting some miraculous, extraordinary experience to take place, it's going to to charge the atmosphere. But the association of fleshy feelings with the spirit of God is is an unwise approach to to the worship of God for the people of God.

Yeah. In the movie Cessationist, when we interviewed Scott Anial, he said something which I thought was very profound. I think probably a lot of people missed it. He said that charismatic theology has infiltrated even otherwise more solid doctrinally, solid churches by teaching people that there should be this felt expectation in worship, like that you have to have a liver shiver, that you have to have some some kind of experience in order for true worship to be true.

Right. That you can't you can't really worship God or you're not really worshiping God unless there's this expectation of something great is about to happen. I'm going to feel something which actually I mean, what is that?

That's the flesh man desiring a feeling in the flesh to confirm that what is happening to you is spiritual. It's actually backwards. It's so wrong. If you have like a bad toothache, you can have feelings of euphoria.

You can have it from like eating a delicious steak. You can have it from eating a rotten steak. You can have it from all types of different drugs. OK, so that's not evidence of anything. If anything, I would say the fact that the atmosphere is charged like that's another that's like charismania term atmosphere.

That's yeah, it's not like a biblical thing that that the atmosphere has to be changed and seeds grow in the atmosphere. It's like all that that's proof of is that fleshly people are experiencing something or are anticipating something fleshly to happen in their flesh.

That's what that is. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a spiritualized sensuality.

No doubt about it, man. That's that's where like all the rolling on the floor, laughing, all of that. That's what it is. It's sensuality masking itself in Bible terms and not in many of them are not even Bible terms, just spiritual terms.

See, redemption and salvation is for the lost. Deliverance is to set the captive free.

Being made aware that Christians need deliverance as much as the world is revolutionary. Now we're going to be set free from the bondage that we have and not just walking around with demons that have been plaguing us our whole life.

Deliverance is for the people of God. Deliverance is for the church.

So redemption and salvation is for the lost. Deliverance is to set the captives free. Assuming captives there then means both unbelievers and believers, but seemingly especially believers, since it's typically only believers showing up at these mass deliverance conferences or at Greg Locke's church to receive deliverance from demons.

Yeah, it's tragic that he says salvation is for the loss and deliverance is for us to set or to set the captives free. It's a myopic view of what salvation actually is. He's conflating the term salvation with justification.

That's what he's doing because salvation doesn't end at justification. Salvation includes justification. It includes our sanctification. It includes future glorification. So to say that salvation is for the lost, then what that tells me is, what that actually tells me is this, that this entire doctrine that these guys have made up is a false doctrine of sanctification.

That's actually, it's a false doctrine of sanctification and it is a deficient view of justification and what happens when a person is actually delivered from the reign and rule of sin and hell. Christ delivers us from the reign, rule, and dominion of hell and the devil.

He transfers us when we trust in him from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear son. And he does that for us when we believe. We are no longer our slaves to the reign of sin and the rule of the devil anymore when we believe in him.

And the process of the Christian life then is a process of the Holy Spirit, who is absolutely, utterly essential in the life of the Christian, doing the work of tilling the ground of our souls, of drawing us closer to Christ, of empowering the fruits of the Spirit to grow inside of us, to make us more like Jesus as we walk together with Christ through what the Word says.

So then what these guys are saying is they're cutting that all out and saying the reason that you're a Christian and you still sin has nothing to do with the fact that our salvation is progressive because I don't think they actually believe that our salvation or our sanctification is progressive.

I don't think they believe that. This is like Wesleyan holiness mixed into this. That the reason you're not holy is not because you're wrestling with the flesh or you're not wrestling with the flesh. The reason you're not holy is because you haven't had your demons cast out yet.

That's the main problem. You need to have the freedom of demons being cast out. This is revolutionary. I mean, I guess it's a revolutionary, you know, doctrine of hell, like you said, literal doctrine of demons.

It's like, what are they even talking about? I don't see repentance in this. Do you hear these people talking about, like, repenting?

Right. I think that if we were to ask them about repentance, they would say, as I've heard some of them say, that in order to experience deliverance, repentance has to be involved. You can't be delivered from something that you are not repenting of.

And so the story goes, so if we take pornography, if you are repenting of your lust and you are cutting off your right hand and you're doing what you should be doing in order to conquer a sin, and then you're still struggling with that sin, well, that is the sign of a demonic presence, of a demonic oppression, that you have a lust demon that is hindering your sanctification, that's hindering your victorious Christian life and your holy walk.

And so the reason why deliverance is so appealing is because it presents a microwaved sanctification, where I don't have to, like, I'm not meant to have a lifelong battle with sin. I'm supposed to conquer a sin and move on.

But the fact that I'm still struggling with a sin must mean that I have a demon because I've submitted my life completely and totally to God otherwise. And if I've done that, then the only reason why I could still be struggling is because I have a demon hindering me.

And so I can go to a deliverance minister and I can have an incredibly emotional experience while at the same time making leaps and bounds in my sanctification. I'll never be angry again now. I'll never lust again now, right?

I've been delivered from that. Of course, because the deliverance ministers are clever, they also teach that you may need to go through deliverance many, many times. In fact, Pagani himself says that even prophets of God need deliverance every once in a while.

Like a car needs an oil change just to go in for a tune-up, as it were, and get some deliverance. Even prophets, even apostles. And in fact, if you're a prophet who doesn't think you need deliverance from demons, then you definitely have demons.

And so anyone who says that they don't need deliverance from demons is automatically demon-oppressed according to them. But there's good news, David. Though you are demon-oppressed and demon-inhabited, you can go to a deliverance minister and make leaps and bounds in your sanctification in just a matter of hours and never struggle with that again.

I just saw this post, which I think is a little bit older. Do you know who Lindsay Davis Knotts is?

She's that girl from Bethel, right?

Yeah, quite tragic, her story. Because what happened with her is she left Bethel, went on Cultish or one of those shows, and then lots of people gave her a platform, a big platform. And she's like a dog returning to its vomit, went right back there now, and she apologized to Bill Johnson.

Anyway, it's very, very sad. I've had some interaction with both her and her husband. But one of the things that her husband or she did a post where she said, my husband has not had any lustful thought for another woman for like the last two years.

And I had to read it, man. I had to read through. It's a long thing. I had to read through the whole thing. And it's because he was delivered from lustful thoughts. And the only way that he could prove it to her is to spend money and hire a professional lie detector, like a guy who does lie detector stuff.

And he did a lie detector test and the test said, this man is telling the truth. He no longer has lust. And they're like, holding a certificate. She and her husband holding a certificate saying lust free.

Graduated past lust. That's amazing.

Dude. Come on, man. That's I feel really sad. I feel sad for both of them because like, I don't know, I would hate. I hope that they're. I hope that they both repent of this like nonsense.

But that's, that's, that's the appeal of it. That's the appeal of it that you can, you can have an experience, you can go through something and then you can never have to struggle with it again.

We trust in Christ, His righteousness is imputed to us. But as Luther says, we are simul justus et peccator. Until this is the reason why the scripture tells us that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God because sin dwells within us.

And that is something that we will have to wrestle with for the rest of our life. And to the person who says, I have no sin, I will direct them to the epistle of 1st John, where John says, if a person claims to have no sin, they are a liar and the truth is not within them.

And so, you know, these people who are claiming that they have been delivered, deliverance is for the Christian and you need to have this deliverance that only we can provide. And once you're delivered, then you won't sin anymore.

That I mean, 1st John directly contradicts that.