"Come Out In Jesus Name" Critique - Part 1

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"Come Out in Jesus Name" Part 2

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All right, welcome to the HolyNope podcast. I am the HolyNope and with me is

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David Lovey. Hello, David. Hello, how's it going, man? It's going super great.

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I'm excited to talk about our topic for today, which is the documentary about Greg Locke.

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I mean about Deliverance Ministry, which is called Come Out in Jesus Name. Yeah, I'm excited about that too, even though it's a filthy, dirty task.

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But somebody has to do it. Yes, I would describe the experience of watching it, when

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I think I've seen it now at least twice, it's painful, a little infuriating at times.

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And I think primarily because of the way that scripture is presented in the film to support a doctrine that is being read into scripture.

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The scripture twisting is very problematic in my opinion.

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And that's some of the stuff that we want to talk about. Come Out in Jesus Name is a documentary about the

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Deliverance Ministry movement that is taking place, really seems to be sweeping across much of the the

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Western world at least, with prominent leaders such as Greg Locke, Vlad Zavchuk, Alexander Pagani, men like Daniel Adams and Catherine Crick.

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And people like this and now a whole bunch of other people who don't have as big of recognition are hopping on the

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Demon Slayer bandwagon with a doctrine that essentially states that Christians need deliverance just as much as people of the world who are not

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Christians, who are unbelievers, that Christians can be inhabited and therefore oppressed by demons from which they need deliverance, even after being reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ, that there is subsequent freedom that must take place in order to live a full and victorious

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Christian life. Would you agree with that? Yeah, that's what they teach. I believe that that pernicious error both adds to the finished work of Christ and strangely enough at the same time detracts from the finished work of Christ and I'm sure that that's something that we're going to get into as we talk about this.

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But it detracts, I'll start with the second, it detracts from the finished work of Christ because what these people you just mentioned are teaching is that what

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Christ did on the cross was not enough. You need to have this extra thing.

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Demons have not been overcome. We are not more than conquerors in Christ.

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We need them and in that sense then they add also to the finished work of Christ.

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Teaching, stating that we need the secrets that only they possess in order to be freed from demonic possession, oppression, demonizami, being demonized as believers in Jesus.

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So there's these two ways that they fall into the ditch and they're bringing many many people with them.

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There's a lot to unpack with everything that is involved in deliverance ministry that they teach is involved in deliverance ministry including there's the collecting of anecdotal data and getting information from demons themselves as so to inform them on how to do deliverance and when you peek behind the scenes, it becomes quite obvious that the whole shtick of having a short conversation with a demon, finding out its name, finding out how it got in and then casting it out.

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It's a formula. It's a show. It's a performance, I think most of the time.

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But as you mentioned it what we ultimately want to get into is the impact that this well, what is quite literally a doctrine of demons has on the gospel itself.

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Does it have gospel implications and are those who are subscribing to deliverance ministry theology, are they believing a different gospel?

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I think that's a very important question that we ultimately want to answer as we dive into this topic.

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So let's go ahead and play our first clip from the documentary. Preached cute and motivational pop psychology sermons for years to people in our churches that are full of oppression, bitterness, unforgiveness, molestation, bondage, nightmares, panic attacks.

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And we tell them they can have all the peace and joy in the world and they sit there wondering within themselves, well, what's wrong with me?

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Because that message doesn't resonate with me. So I tell people you can do anything you want to in chains, except one thing.

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You can have chains, you can raise your hands and sing, you can drive a car, you can come to church, you can time, you can fast, you can pray, you can dance in the aisle.

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The only thing you cannot do in chains is be free. And then, of course, they will throw up scriptures on the screen throughout the documentary that I think are important for our conversation and understanding how they point to Scripture and use

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Scripture to support their doctrine. So Greg Gluck is right, I think David, that pop psychology sermons are a huge part of how people do their doctrine, are not going to help the people of God.

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Wherever pop psychology or moral therapeutic deism is preached in church buildings across the nation, the people of God are likely not being fed from God's Word.

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And the answer, the correction that needs to take place, well, it isn't the direction that Greg Locke has decided to go in.

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And unfortunately, he has found an unbiblical solution to that problem. And rather than preaching the

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Bible verse by verse through books of the Bible, rather than applying the scriptures to the afflictions of God's people that he lists here, that people have been through trauma, people are suffering in different ways, rather than applying the scriptures to the afflictions of God's people from the pulpit and with the aid of biblical counseling, he has chosen deliverance ministry.

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Yeah, what I perceived in what he just said is the craftiness with which he made his argument.

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Because I also would absolutely agree that psychology as a whole, as a discipline, actually, is off base, starts from the wrong place, has no place in the pulpit.

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It has no place in the preaching of the Word, pop psychology or psychology in general.

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And so on that, I think we would agree. And who is he appealing to then?

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He's appealing to those for whom pop psychology sermons have not been effective.

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Now, of course, they're not effective, right? They're actually not. So he's appealing to people who have found what he's calling pop psychology sermons ineffective and saying, you don't need that.

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Rather, what you need is what I have. And the reason you're not free is not because of your flesh or not because of a lack of repentance or not because of a lack of the preaching of the gospel.

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But the reason you're not free as a Christian is because you have demons living inside.

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That's the conclusion that he's about to come to. Right. But, and I don't know if you want to go here yet, but I just immediately as he was talking,

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I immediately thought of Galatians chapter five, verse one, it was for freedom that Christ set us free, therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

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I'm sure we're going to talk about this more as we go on, Austin. But this is something that Christ is able to do through the preaching of the word, as he says in John eight, that if you are truly my disciples, you will continue in my word and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

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But that's not where Greg is going with this. Yeah. So immediately we are being told that there is a freedom which

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Christians do not yet enjoy and from which they are being held back by demonic spirits, which is of course immediately troubling.

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So it's a lot easier as we'll see to take a few scriptures and twist them to support your practice of yelling at demons than it is to preach the word in a deep and life giving way.

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You can see that they've got Ephesians chapter six up here on the screen and throughout the documentary, as I said, they will post verses on the screen.

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Virtually every one of them is taken out of context. This first one, Ephesians six actually just did a video on,

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I think David, that it is probably the most often pointed to text to support deliverance theology.

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We wrestle not against flesh and blood and the idea imported onto the text is that when we are doing deliverance and having this power encounter with evil spirits, that those moments are the wrestling that Paul is describing in Ephesians six, that we are actually to engage with weapons and tools and strategies in hand to hand combat with demonic forces.

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Yeah. The problem with that is, is like we don't, we don't see that as a prescription for the church.

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We don't see doing hand to hand combat with the devil, talking to the devil, finding out what the names of specific demons are for us to then go and claim the right or the authority over them.

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I mean, I think Jude actually talks about that too, that even Michael, the archangel, wasn't willing to directly rebuke the devil, but he said, the

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Lord rebuke you when they were arguing over the body of Moses. So the fact that these people are trying to say that Christians should do that, which even the pure angels of God are unwilling to do.

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And Jude specifically warns about that there are people who don't even realize what they're messing with when they try to engage in this nonsense that Greg Locke and these guys are trying to do.

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Just to read the text that you were referencing from Jude, Jude nine, but when Michael, the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said the

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Lord rebuke you. But these men, and it's interesting how

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Jude identifies false teachers by the way he describes them and repeatedly throughout his letter,

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I think four or five times, he marks them as these men, these men. And he is saying to the recipients of his letter that these men are identifiable.

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It's these men. These are the ones about whom I'm speaking. You can see them.

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You can point them out. You can mark them. He says, but these men revile the things which they do not understand and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals by these things, they are destroyed.

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I would, I would go so far as to say that Jude is referring to the men that we're talking about right now.

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And that's my opinion that that's, these people are doing the exact thing that Jude is talking about.

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They're the ones who are actually doing it. It's like when the Bible says that false Christ and false prophets are in the world or they're like going out into the world, they're in the world.

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Then what that means is that there is such a thing as a false prophet and a false teacher. They are there.

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So, so it's like Jude is speaking about somebody. Who is he referring to?

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He's referring to the people who are doing the very thing that he says, dumb brute beasts do, which is rebuking that of which they have no understanding whatsoever.

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And they're claiming to be wise. They're fools. They're not wise. They don't have special wisdom.

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They don't have special knowledge. They don't have secrets to deliverance. What these guys are teaching and selling is a lie straight from the pit.

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Yeah. And what is ironic is that the verses that they post in support of their doctrine throughout the documentary often serve as a rebuttal to their doctrine.

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And if we were to take Ephesians six, for example, understanding this text in context, we realize that it has absolutely nothing to do with deliverance ministry, with casting out demons and in the traumatic way that they do and yelling at demons and breaking strongholds in the, in the name of Jesus and using the name of Jesus like an incantation and binding

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Satan in rebuking evil spirits and commanding them to come out and having conversations with them.

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Ephesians six has nothing to do with that. We are told there to stand firm four times in the text to stand firm.

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And that is how we wage spiritual warfare. Standing firm is understood in light of all that came before Ephesians six, that obeying the practical application of the theology contained in the first three chapters and walking as Paul says in Romans four, one in a manner worthy of your calling, doing that living in obedience to the gospel in which you are blessed with the great salvation that Paul describes is the way that we stand firm against the attacks of Satan and the enemy.

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And so when we put on the armor, I don't know about you, David, but I was raised or I wasn't raised, but early on in my

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Christian life, I was taught that the armor of God is something that is supposed to be put on daily ritualistically.

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And if you can not only repeat the repeat the passage as you put it on and then pray through what the belt teaches me about truth and what the breastplate teaches me about righteousness and what the helmet teaches me about salvation and you do that, then you are going to be, you know, extra protected against the schemes of the devil and the attacks of the enemy that you might encounter for that day.

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But when we look at the text, it's not about what the different pieces of armor teach us about those graces that are listed, righteousness, peace, salvation, the

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Holy Spirit. What teaches us about those graces is the way that Paul develops those themes in the rest of the letter.

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And so it's not about me putting on the helmet as if as if the helmet teaches me about salvation.

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Now, what has Paul already taught us about salvation in Ephesians? And so it's my life conformed to the will of God through Christ Jesus and walking in obedience to the gospel that has saved me is how

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I am waging warfare against the devil in me living in the in obedience and faith in Christ.

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I'm able to stand against the devil. I'm able to stand firm in my faith so that the devil cannot harm me.

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I made this I made I made a video explaining Ephesians six in response to a young man who had put out a video in order to prove that birds can be monitoring spirits.

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And so he went to a tree in which a bird was was hanging out and put his hand on the tree and started praying in tongues very loudly under the tree until the bird flew away in his defense, because I noped that video in his defense.

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He cited Ephesians chapter six. He also dabbles in deliverance ministry.

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No surprise. I was a bird. I would fly away, too. Yes. Understanding these texts in their context, it really it really lays a death blow to their system of doctrine.

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But presenting these texts out of context can be very convincing and persuasive to those who don't understand how to read their

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Bible. And that's what these teachers rely on. At that moment, I was shocked and I was more embarrassed that I was ignorant of how to help that girl than anything else.

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And I was in a church one night in South Carolina pastored by Henry Schaeffer. He brings me in the office after I got through preaching.

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I thought I was going to be scolded in the principal's office. He said, I'll talk to you about something. Don't even know what I'm going to tell you. I want to talk to you about deliverance ministry.

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And I'm like, you got to be kidding me. This cannot be accidental. This has to be providential.

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And we just told the Lord, if you'll teach us, if you'll show us how to do this, how to perform deliverance, we'll do it.

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And so when we started to develop a heart for deliverance ministry, we still hadn't told anybody about that.

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My wife had ordered a book off of Amazon. Somebody had recommended it to her called The Secrets to Deliverance by a guy named

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Alexander Pagani. He's a pastor in the Bronx. And I was like, who is this guy? I picked it up.

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I read the back of it, the front of it and just began to peruse through the book. And it was unbelievably amazing how powerful, how biblical and how simplistic it was.

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And that book was the very thing that took away the cloudiness and a lot of the questions that we had.

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And it really sealed the deal for us as far as deliverance ministry was concerned. So what got

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Greg Locke into deliverance ministry, what sealed the deal for him was a special little book by one

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Apostle Alexander Pagani. This sent them over the edge, this got them convinced.

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This taught them foundationally how to do deliverance ministry.

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David, you and I have both now read this book. Your general thoughts on it?

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Yeah, best book since Pilgrim's Progress. It's up there for sure.

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Sorry, I shouldn't joke, honestly, honestly.

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This is a pile of manure, this book by Pagani. Man, it's shocking that Greg Locke, all this says to me when he's like, it's so thoroughly biblical.

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Really? There's nothing biblical at all about the secrets to deliverance.

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Where do we find in the Bible, perhaps in the book of First Assumptions, that that verse that talks about anal demons, because that's what

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Alexander Pagani writes about in there, which, of course, some people have already made videos on that, which

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I think needs to be exposed. But like, maybe that's the wrong word.

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But like, what I'm just saying is, man, is that all that book is, because you asked me what are my thoughts on it, here's my thoughts.

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All that book, that Secrets to Deliverance book, is just the thoughts of a depraved, sinful man who is leading people astray and who potentially is writing those things actually because a demon is telling him to write those things, which is so like, it's so, so bizarre and shocking.

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I mean, I would say don't waste your money if you're watching this. Don't buy this book.

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There's enough reviews of it out there. We're hopefully going to do a review of the book in our

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Holy Note podcast for you so that you don't have to waste your time and lose brain cells reading it.

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But there's nothing biblical about it whatsoever. Absolutely not. Yeah, so it goes, as he tells it in the book, that he had a deliverance experience himself.

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A demon was hiding in his chest, and then he had a dream in which a well -known ministry leader hands him a book with golden letters in the dream that says the

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Secrets to Deliverance. And he says that since that time, his spirit has been receiving download after download of revelation on the subject of demons and especially how they reside within the body and the soul of a

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Christian. So I agree with you, David. The book is awful. So Pagani claims to, he claims repeatedly referring to his teaching throughout the book as revelation, that the substance of his teaching is revelation from the

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Holy Spirit. And that's why he begins the book in the acknowledgements.

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The opening sentence of the book is, I thank you, Holy Spirit, for entrusting me with these secrets. And so he is getting gnostic downloads of revelation by which he is teaching what he does in his book and in his itinerant ministry.

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So he abuses Scripture in order to support this supposed revelation.

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And so you and I have read the book. The way that he takes Scripture and causes it to mean something other than what it could possibly mean is, it's an infuriating thing to read when he takes

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Psalm 7 and says, You rid my soul in pieces, and he takes that to be a literal, a literal anatomy of the soul, that there are 90 rooms in our soul which corresponds to the temple.

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And his whole hermeneutical process just demonstrates that he is not qualified to teach.

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And so for anybody, anybody with sense, the fact that this book is the foundation of Greg Locke's understanding of deliverance and therefore the launching pad of his entire ministry is massively problematic.

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Pagani claims to be sola scriptura, that's how he says it. But I find that to be a false claim from this guy.

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He's not sola scriptura. The Bible is not his ultimate and final authority.

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He says the opposite of that in the book, stating what you just said, that he receives direct downloads of information from God.

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And even that, such a bizarre way to even put that, downloads, like his brain is a computer and God is downloading software into his brain.

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And the sad part about it is, for real, actual Christians who hear

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Bible verses being quoted, right, and hear Christianese coming out of the mouth of a guy like Pagani or a guy like Greg Locke, if they're not taught well in the scriptures, they can be tossed about by every wind of doctrine, like this is what's happening with the followers of these people, is they're tossing them about like sound hermeneutical principles are thrown right out the window.

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Like it doesn't matter what the original context of the scripture says in the Psalms. Who cares?

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There's 90 rooms in your soul. Like, wow, that sounds super interesting. And what incredible insight this person has into the

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Bible, except it's not insight into the Bible at all. That's just insight into Alexander Pagani's wicked imagination, trying to put things, imply things in the text that aren't actually there.

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And by doing that, he's actually adding to the word of God. Why are we making this? We're not making this video because, like, you just don't like these guys.

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That's not why. It's because these people are leading well -meaning, well -intentioned

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Christians who don't have a firm foundation, or those who think that they're Christians and they're really not, okay?

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They're leading those people further away from Jesus. That's what they're doing. And that's the reason why we're spending time making a video like this, right?

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I don't know if you've heard it. I'm sure you have, Austin, you know, doing the Holy Note, where you've heard people say things to you like, you know, can't you just get along, man?

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Like Christ doesn't want us to rip each other apart. The church is eating itself from the inside out.

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Like, look at how your whole page is dedicated to attacking these brothers.

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Have you heard that? Yeah, I get those comments all the time, that the work that I do on the

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Holy Note is divisive, that it's dividing the body of Christ, that it's sowing discord or causing division.

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Here's what Jude says about false teachers and divisions. We have another identifying phrase from Jude in verse 19.

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These are the ones, he says, these are the ones who cause divisions.

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He doesn't say divisiveness at the feet of those who identify false teachers, but at the feet of the false teachers themselves.

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They are the ones who are divisive to the body, not those who are standing on the faith once delivered to the apostles, on the historic faith of the

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Christian church, on actual sola scriptura, where we believe that the Bible is our authority and not downloads of revelation by this, you know, wicked man out in Brooklyn somewhere.

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Like, they are the ones that are actually dividing the church. And we're standing on the truth of the word of God.

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And this is, it's tragic and it's sad, but it has to be done.

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If we don't, if not just us, but if others who also stand on the word of God aren't actually carrying out what

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Ephesians, what is it? Ephesians 5 .11, it talks about exposing the works of darkness. And if we're not doing that, then we're not doing our job.

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Our job actually is as shepherds of the flock to protect the sheep from wool.

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And when I was willing to get up and say, okay, God, I'm about to embarrass myself and really preach a true

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Bible message. I'm going to go deep in the theology of the ministry of Jesus and see what happens.

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And when I announced it, they were there long before me. It was almost like the church was saying, we've been waiting on you.

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We've been waiting on you. Where have you been all these years? This is what we want because deliverance is the awakening that the church has been waiting on.

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In the new Testament. Is it terrifying that Christians can be attacked and oppressed by demons?

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Yes. People are in need.

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They need help and they're seeking help and their pride is out the door. The atmosphere is so charged in here right now.

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It's just charged. I'm out. Christians can be under the influence of satanic oppression.

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A hundred percent. They can't. Evil spirits consider bodies their houses because the spirit is a person without a body.

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You can just feel in the atmosphere in the spirit. People are so hungry.

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We're gonna go deep into the theology Greg Locke says And then he proceeds to quote directly from Pagani's book about a spirit

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Needing a body because the body is a house because a spirit is a person without a body

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Who needs a house? Have they always needed a house? like is

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Is this is this a wonder what I wonder what he's saying there that like The the devil's what they're homeless

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Or something if they don't live inside of a person. Oh, there's certainly nothing deep about Pagani's theology

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And I think what's what's interesting about this clip and and this this documentary

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Is a little misleading I think because it's it's not really about deliverance It's about Greg Locke and that becomes more plain as as you as you watch it

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This is about the Demon Slayer communities affirmation of Greg Locke and them also

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I think kind of riding the train of his his Popularity so so we're not getting we're not getting a deep presentation or defense of their position

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You know, he says we're gonna go deep into the up the theology They put that clip in there, but then the clip that they show

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The preaching clip that they show is just him affirming the doctrine can

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Christians have demons? Yes, they can Okay, right. It's it's not being proven

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Here in in this documentary. It's not being demonstrated or defended from Scripture They're just scriptures are just being thrown up on the screen throughout

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I think what's interesting is the The Synonymous usage especially by mrs.

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Locke there between the atmosphere and the spirit as if a charged

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Atmosphere is a sign of the spirits presence But I think what happens

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When you when you get a room full of people expecting some miraculous Extraordinary experience to take place.

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It's going to to charge the atmosphere But the association of fleshy feelings with the

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Spirit of God is it's an unwise approach To to the worship of God for the people of God.

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Yeah in the movie cessationist when we interviewed Scott Anial he said something which

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I thought was very profound. I think probably a lot of people missed it He said that charismatic theology has infiltrated even otherwise

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More solid doctrinally solid churches by Teaching people that there should be this felt

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Expectation in worship like likes that you have to have a liver shiver that you have to have some some kind of experience in order for True worship to be true, right that you can't you can't really worship

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God or you're not really worshipping God Unless there's this expectation of something great is about to happen.

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I'm gonna feel something which Actually, I mean, what is that?

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That's the flesh man desiring a feeling in the flesh

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To confirm that what is happening to you is spiritual it's actually backwards

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It's wrong. Don't if you have like a bad toothache, you can have feelings of euphoria

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You can have it from like eating a delicious steak. You can have it from eating a rotten steak

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You can have it from all types of different drugs. Okay, so That's not evidence of anything if if anything

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I would say the fact that the atmosphere is Charged like that's another that's like charismania term

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Atmosphere that's yeah, it's not like a biblical thing That that the atmosphere has to be changed and seeds grow in the atmosphere

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It's like all that that's proof of is that fleshly people experience something are

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Anticipating something fleshly to happen in their flesh. That's what that is Yeah, it's a it's a it's a spiritual eyes to sensuality.

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No doubt about it, man That's that's where like all the rolling on the floor laughing all of that.

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That's what it is. It's sensuality masking itself in Bible terms and not in many of them are not even

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Bible terms just spiritual terms Salvation is for the lost. Deliverance is to set the captives free

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Being made aware that Christians need deliverance as much as the world is

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Revolutionary now, we're gonna be set free from the bondage that we have and not just walking around with demons that have been plaguing us our whole life

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Deliverance is for the people of God. Deliverance is for the church. So redemption and salvation is for the lost

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Deliverance is to set the captives free I Assuming captives there then means both unbelievers and believers, but seemingly

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Especially believers since it's typically only believers showing up at these mass

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Deliverance conferences or at Greg Locke's church to receive deliverance from demons. Yeah It's tragic that he says

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Salvation is for the loss and deliverances for us to set or to set the captives free

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It's a myopic view of what salvation actually is He's conflating the term salvation with Justification that's what he's doing because salvation doesn't end at justification

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Salvation includes justification. It includes our sanctification. It includes future glorification so to say that Salvation is for the lost

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Then what that tells me is What that actually tells me is this that this entire doctrine that these guys have made up is a false doctrine of sanctification that's actually

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It's a false doctrine of sanctification and it is a deficient view of justification

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And what happens when a person is actually delivered from the reign of rule of sin and hell

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Christ delivers us from the reign rule and dominion of Hell and the devil he transfers us when we trust in him from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear son and he does that for us when we believe we are no longer our slaves to the reign of sin and the rule of the devil anymore when we believe in him and the

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Process of the Christian life then is a process of the Holy Spirit who is absolutely utterly essential in the life of the

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Christian doing the work of Tilling the ground of our souls of drawing us closer to Christ of Empowering the fruits of the

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Spirit to grow inside of us to make us more like Jesus as we walk together with Christ Through what the word says, right?

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So so then What these guys are saying is like they're cutting that all out.

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Okay and saying The reason that you're a Christian and you still sin has nothing to do with the fact that our salvation is progressive

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Because I don't think they actually believe that our salvation or our sanctification is progressive

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I don't think they believe that this is like Wesleyan holiness mixed into this Okay, that the reason you're not holy

38:22

It's not because you're wrestling with the flesh or you're not wrestling with the flesh

38:27

The reason you're not holy is because you haven't had your demons cast out yet. That's the main problem

38:34

You need to have the freedom of demons being cast out. This is revolutionary

38:40

I mean, I guess it's a revolutionary, you know doctrine of hell

38:46

Like you said literal doctrine of demons, it's like what what are you what are they even talking about?

38:53

I don't see repentance in this. Do you do you hear these people talking about like Repenting right?

39:01

I think that if we were to ask them about repentance They would say as as I've heard some of them say that in order to to experience deliverance

39:12

Repentance has to be involved. You can't be delivered from something that you are not repenting of and so the story goes so if we take pornography

39:23

If you are repenting of your lust And you are you are cutting off your right hand and you're and you're doing

39:33

You're doing what you are what you should be doing in order to to conquer a sin and then you're still struggling with that sin

39:40

Well, that is the that is the sign of a demonic Presence of a demonic oppression that you have a lust demon that is hindering your sanctification that's hindering your your victorious

39:55

Christian life and your holy walk and so the reason the reason why

40:03

Deliverance is so appealing is because it presents a microwaved Sanctification where I I know

40:10

I don't have to Like I'm not meant to have a lifelong battle with sin.

40:16

I'm supposed to conquer a sin and move on But the fact that I'm still struggling with a sin must mean that I have a demon because I've submitted my life completely and totally to God otherwise and if I have if I've done that then the only reason why

40:33

I could still be struggling is because I Have a demon hindering me and so I can go to a deliverance minister and I can have an incredibly emotional experience

40:44

While at the same time making leaps and bounds in my sanctification I'll never be angry again.

40:51

Now. I'll never lust again now, right? That's been I've been delivered from that of course

40:58

Because the deliverance ministers are clever They all they also teach that you may need to go through deliverance many many times

41:06

In fact Pagani himself says that even prophets of God need deliverance every once in a while like Like a car needs an oil change just to go in for a tune -up as it were and Get some deliverance even even prophets even apostles and in fact if you're a prophet who doesn't think you need deliverance from demons, then you definitely have demons and So anyone who says that they don't need deliverance from demons is

41:38

Automatically demon oppressed according to them, but there's good news David though you are demon oppressed and demon inhabited you can go to a deal deliverance minister and make leaps and bounds in your sanctification in just a matter of hours and Never struggle with that again.

41:58

I just saw this post which I think is a little bit older Do you know who

42:04

Lindsay Davis knots is? She's that that girl from Bethel, right?

42:12

Yeah quite tragic her her Story because because what happened with her is she left

42:21

Bethel Went on cultish or one of those shows and then lots of people gave her a platform a big platform and she's like a

42:34

Dog returning to its vomit went right back there now and she apologized to Bill Johnson Anyway, it's very very sad.

42:44

I've had some interaction with both her and her husband but one of the things that Her husband or she she did a post where Where she said my husband has not had any

43:03

Lustful thought for another woman for like the last two years Okay, and I had to read it man

43:11

I had to read through is a long thing I had to read through the whole thing. Okay, and it's because he was delivered from Lustful thoughts and the only way that he could prove it to her is to spend money and hire a professional lie detector like a guy who does lie detector stuff and He does he did a lie detector test and the test said like I this man is telling the truth he no longer has lust and they're like holding a certificate

43:47

She and her husband holding a certificate saying graduate like what? lust free

43:54

Graduated past lust. That's amazing Come on man, that's

44:04

I feel really sad I feel sad for both of them because like I Don't know.

44:13

I I would hate I hope that they're I hope that they both repent of this like nonsense

44:18

Yeah, but that's that's that's the appeal of it That's the appeal of it that you can you can have an experience you can go through something and then you can

44:26

Never have to struggle with it again. We trust in Christ His righteousness is imputed to us.

44:32

But as Luther says we are similar used to set peccator. We are simultaneously both just and Sadly, unfortunately sinners in this world until we slough the mortal coil until that This is the reason why the scripture tells us that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God Because sin dwells within us and that is something that we will have to wrestle with For the rest of our life and to the person who says

45:01

I have no sin I will direct them to the epistle of first John where John says if a person claims to have no sin

45:08

They are a liar and the truth is not within them And so, you know these people who are claiming that they have been delivered deliverances for the

45:16

Christian and you need to have this deliverance that only we can provide and once you're delivered then you won't sin anymore

45:24

That I mean first John directly contradicts that right? Well David.

45:29

It sounds to me like you just have a religious spirit Number one demon that needs to be cast out of the church is the demon of religion

45:41

You're sleeping with somebody outside of marriage You're less than you're watching porn.

45:46

You're beating your wife when nobody's looking you come to church looking all great and stuff walking around Hey, Pastor Greg, you having a good day?

45:53

Good to see you, but you were just out there yelling at your wife's all of the B word and all that stuff You see what

45:58

I'm saying? Some of you no offense, but you in here now and you ain't manifesting yet because you refuse to repent and lose your dignity

46:09

That's why people have a hard time with deliverance ministry because they are oppressed by an evil spirit

46:15

Okay, so we can see In in Daniel Adams there that the repentance is required for for The the demon in order for the demon to manifest and you to start going through the process of Deliverance, so don't you think you're just?

46:35

You know being a religious Pharisee David when you say that this microwaved sanctification and the the truncated view of salvation that they hold to is unbiblical and and unhelpful

46:52

Maybe you need deliverance from an evil spirit yourself. So what

47:00

I would say to that is that What we are doing is actually the opposite of What the

47:10

Pharisees in the scripture were doing what the Pharisees in the scripture were doing was

47:17

Suppressing the truth in unrighteousness They saw the truth about Christ how he is the

47:25

Messiah He is the all -sufficient Savior He is the one who is able to do these things which no one else could do and the words of God are in his mouth

47:35

They saw the truth of that and they suppressed it and they turn their backs on it

47:41

And they taught other people to do so as well That's what the Pharisees do What we are doing is we are exposing the truth we're exposing the lie of these people and Proclaiming the truth about what

47:55

God says about these things So actually who is really acting like a

48:01

Pharisee right now? is it we who want to test everything by the scriptures and see if What these people are saying is true

48:11

Are there really 90 rooms in the soul like it is sanctification

48:17

Instantaneous by the casting out of demons and then you don't have to worry about sin anymore Like if is that really the the issue like if if that's if that's the issue

48:28

That we're really supposed to be wrestling with surely the scripture is clear about that Right.

48:34

Let's just see the proof. Let's see where the Bible says that oh You they can't show us where the

48:41

Bible says that well then maybe They're actually the ones with a religious spirit,

48:49

I mean what is religion religion is man's Way of responding to God that's actually what religion is and there are true religion

49:01

There's true religion and there's false religion And I would say if anything what they're doing is they're promoting a false

49:10

Religion, which is exactly what the Pharisees did they promoted a false?

49:16

religion that was not scriptural and Jesus rebuked them for it and They murdered him because of that.

49:24

Yeah, and yeah, so I assertion the

49:29

Pharisees promoted a false religion that Was characteristic of laying heavy burdens upon the people and While the demon slayers are promising freedom through their ministry

49:43

They're actually laying burdens on the people of God I've featured a clip of Isaiah Saldivar who's also featured in this documentary basically mocking

49:54

Christians who have been in the faith for Years and have never cast it out a demon as if that is required of them if that is expected of them in in the

50:05

Christian life and so with a mocking tone and so the and so people like Isaiah Saldivar and These other demon slayers are laying this requirement and this

50:16

Expectation upon the people of God that you should be casting out demons or you're not

50:21

Walking in the the power and the authority that you should be walking in And so it's laying a burden on the people that well,

50:28

I've got to be involved in this or I'm just a baby Christian I'm not a mature

50:33

Christian I'm not exercising the authority that I have in the name of Jesus and To lay that requirement to lay that burden on on God's people is much more characteristic of a

50:44

Pharisee than testing their doctrine by the scriptures Not only not only that Vlad Savchuk recently said that if a pastor is

50:54

Not engaged in this demon -slaying work that these people are promoting that That is the test of whether or not he's a hired hand

51:03

Right, not just yeah, not even just You're not doing what you know, just you're a hired hand

51:09

You're running from the enemy if you're not doing this You need to be engaged in casting demons out of Christians or else

51:19

You're the kind of person that the Lord is referring to they're not a real shepherd real shepherds

51:25

Do this kind of thing? It's it's a total misrepresentation I mean my question then would be this

51:31

I guess Vlad Savchuk believes then that the first 919 or 20 centuries of the

51:40

Christian Church There really weren't any shepherds at all then right right because this other than the

51:48

Catholic Church is You know demon protocol Yeah, yeah,

51:55

I've seen that Yeah, right I've seen that clip and that's what he says that the difference between a shepherd and a hireling is

52:05

Deliverance ministry and if you are not doing deliverance ministry Then you are a hireling and isn't it the most blatantly?

52:14

manipulative tactic to say Absolutely that if you what

52:20

Greg Locke just says in this clip people who have a hard time with the with deliverance ministry Do so because they are oppressed by an evil spirit

52:28

It's it's so manipulative and crooked and Wicked and just played well if you don't agree with me, it's because you have a demon it's ridiculous

52:43

Yeah, yeah, really really Tragic, I mean do we do we see

52:49

Jonathan Edwards engaging in this kind of behavior? I mean do we see

52:54

Calvin do we see Luther do we see? Whitfield do we see any of them doing what these guys are talking about?

53:02

I guess none of them I mean, this is even time during times of awakening in the church like real actual revivals they're talking about you need to do this in order to bring revival, but but the kind of Quote -unquote deliverance ministry that these people are

53:20

Promoting this is a new thing. It's not something that's been going on throughout the history of the church

53:27

So so for them to make the claim or for Sav Chuck to make the claim that true shepherds do this

53:33

And if you don't then you're not what he's actually saying. I mean, it's such a such an anemic view of church history

53:41

Has nothing to do with the proclamation of the faith once delivered to the

53:46

Apostles Yeah, and this manipulative tactic of just accusing those who disagree of Being demon oppressed it trickles down To their followers so that the fruit of this theology is for everyone who subscribes to it

54:03

It seems to say well if you're coming against this It's because you yourself have a demon when I note that video that you're referencing of Vlad talking about hirelings.

54:11

I got a comment I've got a picture of it right here Someone said I think you have a religious demon.

54:16

I think you have a religious demon because you are contradicting Vlad's teaching here.

54:23

I another person commented. There is no proof of power and grace in his Supposed ministry my ministry.

54:29

He is a word person word is in is in is in quotes there a word person that can't cast out a single demon and so there seems to be certainly an air of superiority among those who think that they

54:47

Themselves are demon slayers if you haven't cast a demon listen to this out of yourself

54:52

Then you are in darkness and deceived. That's another comment. I got on that Vlad video if you haven't performed

55:01

Self -exorcism and you're in darkness, bro. You're deceived Nonsense, I mean then what do we need these people for then?

55:12

Yeah, it's really a messy system of doctrine But speaking of Vlad let's watch this final clip

55:22

Christians Get this out of your head that if a demon is operating in a person then that means the demon owns a person

55:31

Being demonized is not the same as being owned by a demon. We are owned by the blood of Jesus Christ He purchased us the

55:38

Bible says we are his own special people But sometimes we can let keys to different demonic spirits and they can have access into our life, but it doesn't mean that they own it and because Jesus Christ owns it we can strike them out and we can walk in freedom and so we can move on to walk in Dominion for the glory of God with with Vlad's teaching we get we get a little bit more insight into their understanding of the the ins and outs of demonic habitation

56:10

Within a person and you'll notice that he uses the phrase ownership The Christian or a demon cannot own a

56:17

Christian because a Christian is owned by Jesus Christ And it seems that ownership is being used synonymously with the idea of possession and what a lot of people don't understand about the theology of the demon slayers is

56:31

That they do not teach that a demon or that a Christian can be possessed by a demon

56:37

They're very careful to say a Christian can't be possessed but they can be

56:44

Oppressed and oppressed being inhabited in some part of their body or soul

56:49

Now Greg Locke makes the point that some at some moment in this documentary that he's tired of the oppressed versus possessed conversation because the fact of the matter is people are

57:02

Demonized and they need help and that's what we want to focus on is Helping those in need those who are demonized but the problem with this is that they are actually creating a third category

57:17

Which does not fit the biblical record where a Christian can be inhabited without being possessed

57:28

Yeah I've heard Pagani put it this way that It's like a spider that lives in your house

57:38

The spider doesn't own the house He just lives in your house and the spider might

57:46

Oppress you but he's just there inside of it in the same or similar kind of way a

57:55

Demon might live inside of you, even though the owner of the house is the

58:01

Lord. I want to read Something from and maybe in our part two we could talk about this a little more something from Luke 11

58:12

Where Jesus says when an unclean verse 24 when an unclean spirit goes out of a man

58:20

It passes through waterless places finding rest and not finding any

58:26

It says I will return to my house from which I came so even there

58:34

The demon calls at his house. I will return to my house from which

58:41

I came and When it comes it finds it swept and put in order

58:49

Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself and they go in and live there and the last state of that man becomes worse

59:06

Than the first I just have to say if that's talking about a

59:13

Christian then What Jesus is saying here that for the

59:20

Christian the final state of a Christian after the deliverance of the demon being taken out of the

59:28

Christian is That his final state is worse than the first state that he was in is that what they're trying to say there that this

59:38

Jesus is talking to believers and saying that Believers final condition is worse than before they were believers

59:47

That's so crazy It's not what Jesus is talking about and for that matter as I already mentioned here

59:55

The demon says this is my house and he goes he's cast out of this.

01:00:00

I believe unbelieving person and the house is swept clean it is empty when he returns with seven of his friends and To that person that person's condition is worse than yeah

01:00:16

And and they do they would apply this to a believer and that is why it is their procedure to after they have supposedly cast out a demon to pray for the filling of the

01:00:26

Holy Spirit sort of to to fill The void of the demon lest they get inhabited with more demons

01:00:34

However, even if that's done they still are probably going to need Deliverance again in the future

01:00:41

For for whatever for whatever reason the demon slayers try to make a distinction between being possessed and Oppressed a

01:00:51

Christian can't be owned or possessed, but they can be demonized This is another example of them ignoring the clear testimony of Scripture for their own purposes

01:01:02

Whenever when whenever the New Testament uses the word demon I it's talking about being indwell and controlled by a demonic presence that is

01:01:13

Possessed it means to have a demon so out of the the 21 times that this word and its other form is

01:01:20

Used across the four Gospels. It is never referring to anything less than Full -blown possession.

01:01:27

That's what it means to be demonized the demon slayers Invent a pantheon of demons the spirit of Jezebel the religious demon

01:01:36

Leviathan Whatever in a tribute attribute any struggle or failure in the

01:01:42

Christians life to demonic oppression For example, as we said before if you've repented of lust but still struggle you probably have a demon but the

01:01:50

New Testament never uses the word for demonization to describe Temptation or accusation or or these external attacks from Satan as if Being tempted with sin is a mark of demonization

01:02:06

While Satan can attack Christians from without he can he can launch external attacks

01:02:11

This does not fall under the biblical category of being demonized a category which denies that a

01:02:17

Christian can experience biblical demonization a Christian There is no example in Scripture of a

01:02:25

Christian being demonized that is indwelt and controlled i .e Possessed by a demonic but the fact of the matter is if Christians cannot have demons then

01:02:36

Their whole theology falls apart. I mean why? This is how serious this is.

01:02:42

That's why you asked the question in the beginning like are these people believing a different gospel? I believe they actually are they're actually teaching and believing a different gospel a gospel, which is impotent and Not enough to save a person

01:02:58

It's not enough to save you from the reign and rule and dominion of sin and hell and the devil

01:03:04

Their gospel is so deficient that for the rest of your life You need them or you need their secrets or you need to do?

01:03:13

This thing over and over and over to yourself or have someone else do it to you in order to live a truly free

01:03:20

And full Christian life and that's not Christianity. Like why did

01:03:25

Paul write the book of Galatians? He wrote Galatians because there were Judaizers who said this you can believe in Jesus All you have to do to really really be a

01:03:37

Christian is to have this little tiny Snip taken off of you know, right like that's what you need to do

01:03:46

What's the big issue with a little bit of tissue, right? Here's the big issue with it

01:03:52

Paul says if you're gonna do that, you might as well go all the way buddy You're believing in a completely different gospel by adding this one thing to it.

01:04:02

You're actually Teaching and preaching a gospel, which is no gospel at all

01:04:08

It is a false gospel and anyone who preaches a gospel other than the one that we preached.

01:04:13

Let him be accursed Condemned anathema. That's what Paul says and that's what these people are doing right now with this

01:04:22

This is a different gospel They're adding a requirement to the Christian and saying if you really want to be a

01:04:30

Christian you have to believe in Jesus plus XYZ that's the reason why these these guys are

01:04:36

Actual real false teachers like People like you're you're willing to condemn false teachers to hell.

01:04:45

It's not me It's the Bible that does that the Bible says that such people are the sons of perdition these are the ones who are leading people astray and that's the reason why this is such a powerful and important thing for us to expose and Repudiate it's why making a movie about the demon slayers

01:05:10

To respond to this and and this you you've been a great help to me already and thinking about these things brother

01:05:18

Yeah, praise God. We want to explore this more Is there a different gospel being presented?

01:05:24

I think there's a compelling case that there is a Different gospel being presented by the demon slayers through their theology of deliverance

01:05:35

We want to explore that more as we continue to review and break down this documentary, but for now

01:05:41

We've covered we've covered a little bit and we're going to continue in part two next time.