May 9, 2017 Show with Terry Mortenson on “Searching for Adam: Genesis & the Truth About Man’s Origin (Part 2)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this ninth day of May 2017 and I'm delighted to have returning to Iron Sharpens Iron radio

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Dr. Terry Mortensen who has his Master of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, his

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PhD in History of Geology from Coventry University. He's a historian of geology and researcher for Answers in Genesis, a lecturer on the creation evolution controversy in 25 countries since the late 1970s, university campus ministry leader in the

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United States and Eastern Europe with Campus Crusade for Christ and the author of many articles and books including

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The Great Turning Point and he's an editor and contributor to Coming to Grips with Genesis.

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Today we are going to continue a discussion we began a couple of months ago on the theme of his book

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Searching for Adam Genesis and the Truth about Man's Origin and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Dr.

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Terry Mortensen. Well good to be with you Chris. And I also want to introduce to you my two co -hosts.

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Today we have a special visiting co -host Charlie Liebert who is founder and director of sixdaycreation .com.

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It's great to have you back in the studio Charlie. Thank you Chris, great to be here. And also a more regular co -host of mine is in studio again the

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Reverend Buzz Taylor. I'm here again, hello. And anybody who would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr.

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Terry Mortensen on the controversy between the young earth creationists and the old earth creationists or specifically about Adam, you may join us by sending an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com

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and please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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USA. And first of all Dr. Mortensen, how did you get so intrigued by this whole issue of the creation versus evolution debate and also the debate on the age of the earth that even

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Christians are involved in in opposition to one another? And when did this come to fruition and you becoming actually a researcher and so on and an author on the subject for Answers in Genesis?

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Well Chris, I grew up in a churchgoing family in southern Minnesota, but I didn't really hear the gospel clearly, and when

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I went off to the University of Minnesota in 1971 I became a typical college student and got into the party life and vulgar language and immoral life.

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And it was in the beginning of my spring semester or spring quarter that a staff member from Campus Crusade for Christ called me up on my dorm phone and wanted to know if I wanted to get together and talk about Christ, and I did and he led me to Christ.

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And one of the first questions I had was what about evolution? And I was introduced to a couple of books by two giants in the creation movement,

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Dr. Henry Morris and Dr. Duane Gish, both of whom have gone on to be with the Lord, and it really opened my eyes and for me it was like a shark smelling blood.

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I started to read everything I could and joined staff at Campus Crusade and continued to study on my own and went over to Eastern Europe, served there for 10 years up until the fall of communism, and then went to seminary, and by then

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I was really burdened by the issue. I could see the impact of evolutionary thinking on people's lives, especially college students, and causing them to be totally closed to the gospel, thinking that science had proven the

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Bible was just based on mythology. And I am safe to say that you are a six -day creationist, a young earth creationist who believes that God created the earth in six literal 24 -hour periods, correct?

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That's correct. And you know, we already have a listener from Bakersfield, California, who has written, and I normally don't take questions this quickly, into the discussion, but I think it may help set the stage for the rest of the program.

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Daniel in Bakersfield, California says, hello Chris, my question for Dr. Mortensen is, is an individual out of the realm of orthodoxy if they do not believe in a literal

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Adam? Isn't a literal Adam an origin, and original sin, two of the bedrock beliefs of the

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Christian faith? That's Daniel in Bakersfield, California. Yes Daniel, I would say that a denial of a literal

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Adam and a literal fall is definitely heterodox. It's outside of orthodox biblical

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Christianity, historic Christian teaching. It's a serious, serious error.

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But there are people today who claim to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, who claim to believe that the

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Bible is the inspired and errant Word of God, who are denying that, and it makes it very confusing for lots of Christians.

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Well thank you Daniel, and guess what Daniel, you have won a free copy of the book we are addressing today,

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Searching for Adam, Genesis and the Truth about Man's Origin, and this is by our guest

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Dr. Terry Mortensen, and it is being provided to you by our friends at Master Books, and it is being shipped to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for biblebookservice .com,

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cvbbs .com. Thank you very much for contributing your question to the program today. Now taking something from Daniel's question, would the majority of, or should

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I say, would not the majority of Christians who are involved in the debate between old earth and young earth, and those that have some belief in theistic evolution, those from the both the scientific and the theological realm, especially those who have been published on the issue, would not the majority of them believe in a literal

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Adam except that they believe that he, especially in the worst case scenario of those who believe in theistic evolution, and I'm not even sure they all would agree with this, but they would say that he evolved from some lower form of life other than human, but don't they in the majority believe that Adam was a literal figure?

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Well, the word literal is a little bit difficult. I would say that most of them would say that Adam was a historical person.

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How he came into existence would vary on whether they were theistic evolutionists or various strands of old earth creationists, but most of them

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I think would say that Adam really existed, but there are some who would say that what

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Genesis says about Adam is mythology. Yeah, I actually, believe it or not, was taught that in my science class in grammar school in a parochial

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Catholic school. Yep. I'm not saying that the nuns would have said that, but our science teacher mocked the idea of Adam and Eve, said it was nothing but a fairy tale, and said that we came from apes and that the account that we read in Genesis is pure myth.

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Yeah, but I would say that a growing number of scholars who profess to be evangelicals are doubting or denying some or many of the details in Genesis 1, 2, 3 about Adam and the fall, so they will say that they believe he was historical, but they're really playing fast and loose with the details in the text.

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Would they be saying then that Adam is not the father of all mankind? Is that where they go off?

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This is Charlie Liebert speaking right now. Yeah, well, some may, some may not, but I think most of them would say that once you have a historical

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Adam, then everybody after that is descended from Adam. But, you know, the scientific community is now saying that we didn't come from two people, we came from a thousand or ten thousand individuals, which is really bizarre because it's difficult enough to evolve two humans at the same time of the opposite gender.

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To come up with thousands of them is really bizarre. But people like John Stott in England and others believed in pre -Adamite creatures that had bodies like ours, but just didn't have the image of God.

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And so... As ancestors of Adam, you mean? They preceded

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Adam, and God just chose one of those pre -Adamites and breathed into his nostrils and he became

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Adam. Right. Well, yeah, I'm not defending that understanding of it, but would it be acceptable to you, not preceding

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Adam obviously, but would it be acceptable to you that there were strange human -like creatures existing in the days of after Adam, obviously, to get the chronology correct in the creation story?

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Is that in any way offensive to your sensibilities as a young Earth creationist?

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Because even the book of Genesis, as you know, does describe some strange beings. Well, it describes in a difficult passage at the end.

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It doesn't change the fact that all people are descended from Adam.

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There were no other human beings before them. And there's just no biblical basis for saying that there were other humans who were not descended from Adam and Eve.

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We have a listener in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, Ted, who was for years a regular listener to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and we haven't heard from him for quite a while.

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Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Ted. And Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama says, as a believer who is undecided on this matter, but who leans toward the old

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Earth view, I am often asked if I believe in a literal Adam, as if this is some sort of gotcha question.

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The assumption being that a literal Adam is mutually exclusive of an old

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Earth creation position. I think he meant to say young Earth position.

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But anyway, could your guest comment on this, please?

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Yes, there are people who believe in an old Earth who believe also in all the details about Adam.

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They believe that Adam was made first from dust. They believe that Eve was literally made from the rib of Adam, that they fell, that Eve was talked to by a talking serpent, empowered by Satan.

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So there are old Earth theologians and scientists who would believe all the details about Adam.

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They just reject the biblical teaching about the age of the Earth, the creation days, that they deny that the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 have any chronological value, and they would deny that Noah's flood was a global year -long catastrophic flood.

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So I would say then that they are picking and choosing which verses to take as straightforward history and which to interpret in some kind of non -literal figurative sense.

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Well, thank you, Ted. And guess what, Ted? You have also won a free copy of Searching for Adam, Genesis and the

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Truth about Man's Origin. And perhaps the next time you write in, you'll be a young Earth creationist.

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And thanks again. And I look forward to hearing from you more often. You used to write in almost every week, as I remember.

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And it'll be nice to hear from you regularly again. And thanks for your mailing address. We'll have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

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shipped it out to you, God willing, within a week or so. And we also thank Master Books again for providing these copies of the books to give out.

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Here's another great question that is, I think, best asked early on.

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Casey, who's originally from the Philippines and now lives in Kannapolis, North Carolina, he says, what are some of the best arguments against the idea that mankind is descended from apes through evolution?

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And also, what are the best evidences that Adam and Eve were the first two human beings, just like Genesis describes?

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I don't know if he's speaking about as far as biblical references or science or both.

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So he doesn't make a distinction there. Yeah, well, that's a wide open question.

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I give a whole lecture on that, both the science and the biblical side of things. But Genesis is just crystal clear in Genesis 2 -7 that God made man.

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It says, God made man from the dust of the earth. He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being or a living creature, or the

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King James says, living soul. Those are all different translations of the same Hebrew words. And a lot of people, including a number of scholars, are not paying very careful attention to that verse, because it clearly says that God made man from the dust, added the divine breath, and that became a living creature.

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And those words, living creature, are a translation of two Hebrew words, nefesh hayah, and they're also translated in Genesis 1,

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Genesis 2, and Genesis 9 to refer to land animals, sea creatures, and birds. They are also living creatures, but they're not made in the image of God.

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So the Bible is crystal clear. God did not take a living creature, breathe into that the breath of life, and it became a man.

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He created a man, and it became a living creature. So that verse absolutely rules out theistic evolution for the origin of Adam's body.

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He was created supernaturally. And then when we get to Genesis 2, 22, and the creation of Eve.

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Now in this case, Eve was created from a pre -existing living creature, that's Adam, but there's no way you can harmonize that verse with evolution.

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It's describing supernatural surgery. Chapter 3, I think it's verse 21, says

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Eve is the mother of all the living, and 1 Corinthians 15 says Adam was the first man. So the

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Bible is absolutely crystal clear on this, and there's no way to harmonize that with evolution.

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As far as the science side, the world is being massively deceived by imaginative art, and wrong interpretations, and grandiose claims, usually based on very little fossil evidence.

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And so, for example, in a DVD lecture I've done, Ape Man, the

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Grand Illusion, I use quotes and examples and pictures from evolutionists that show that we're just being deceived by art and imagination.

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And in the book Searching for Adam, we have two chapters on the fossil evidence by experts on that issue, and one chapter by two geneticists, showing that the genetics confirms not only that man is unique, and not descended from ape -like creatures, but the mutation rates that have been measured in the human genome, and compared with the mutation rates of other creatures, shows that Adam and Eve were actually created about 6 ,000 years ago, just as Genesis clearly teaches.

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So the evidence is overwhelming for the biblical truth about the origin of man, and it's just that I was motivated to work with 15 other authors on this book, because there's just a desperate need to defend that truth in our current cultural context, and especially with the growing compromise among evangelical scholars.

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I'd like to make a comment about that. This is Charlie Liebert again. In that chapter, chapter 10,

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I've read that, actually I've read that twice, and I think that's an incredible thing to recommend to Christian scientists, to say, look, if you really want to look at this in your old earth or your theistic evolution, read this chapter, because the evidence in here is quite compelling on genetics.

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Yeah, it is, it is, and Nathaniel Jensen has a PhD from Harvard, and Jeffrey Tompkins has a

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PhD from Clemson, and did genetics research, actually head of the genetics department for about 10 years.

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These are not, you know, taxi drivers who don't really know what they're talking about. No offense to all you taxi drivers out there.

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Nothing against taxi drivers, but most of them don't have a PhD in genetics and biology.

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Well, see, that actually brings me to a question that I have for you. I have heard from folks in the old earth side of this debate that the young earth position is bankrupt when it comes to those who are genuinely accredited scientists, such as geologists and paleontologists and such, and people such as that, that those that have the higher degrees of education, who are more established and recognized and lauded as true scientists, are not to be found amongst the young earth crowd.

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Now, how much of an exaggeration is that? That's a gross exaggeration of reality.

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The fact of the matter is the Creation Research Society has 700 members that have either a master's or a

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PhD in the field of science. We have five or six PhD scientists on our staff.

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There are others in the other creation organizations. You would be interested to know that just today, the

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Alliance Defending Freedom organization just filed in federal court in Phoenix, Arizona, a lawsuit against the

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Grand Canyon National Park and I think the

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Department of the Interior. We've got an article on our website just today because through Freedom of Information Act research, the

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Alliance Defending Freedom lawyers have found a lot of evidence that there has been viewpoint discrimination by the

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National Park Service, denying Dr. Andrew Snelling, who has a

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PhD in geology from a major university in Australia, denying him a permit to do geological research in the

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Grand Canyon. And so what's happened is this kind of argument that you summarized is simply an ad hominem attack against people denying the reality that almost every creation scientist who has a

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PhD had to earn that PhD at a secular university completely dominated by evolutionists because there's no place to get a

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PhD in science from a creationist university. So they've earned their stripes, as it were, in very hostile territory.

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And the fact is that this is really a worldview conflict.

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It has nothing to do with science. There are creation scientists who are just as well educated, just as smart as any evolutionist, but it's because they have a biblical worldview that they are denied positions and access and even opportunity to get their research published.

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And that's why they've had to create their own technical peer -reviewed journals to get their research out there in the public domain.

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How about specifically in the area or the field of geology? Are there a lot of prominent, respected geologists who have their doctorates and so on who are young earth creationists?

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There are not a lot. There are a few. Dr. Andrew Snelling and our staff would be one.

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You've just mentioned to me before we began the program Dr. Taz Walker from Australia.

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There's Dr. Steve Austin who got his PhD at Penn State. And here's an interesting example of what this worldview conflict is all about.

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When Dr. Austin was doing his PhD at Penn State in his PhD thesis on the formation of coal, he wisely hid his creationist views from his professors.

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He used a pen name whenever he wrote anything for Creationist Magazine. And after he graduated, after he got his

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PhD, he then went public with his real name and where he got his PhD.

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And the head of the department who signed off on his PhD tried to take his

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PhD away from him when he found out he was a creationist. There's a book by Jerry Bergman who has suffered in his professional life.

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He has nine degrees, I think three PhDs. He's written a book, Slaughter of the

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Dissident, which is just stories of creation scientists who've had their scientific careers demolished or lost tenure or lost their job simply because they were creationists.

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Yeah, I've had Jerry on the program and in fact have scheduled for him to return in the not so distant future.

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And I didn't, I was unaware of that book. I'd love to have him address that as well as the book on Darwin that he has just recently had published.

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Yeah. So it's a battle of worldviews and it tells you a lot when evolutionists have to attack the person and the academic training of creationists instead of dealing with the arguments.

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And you know, here's another interesting thing. When they attack the scientific credentials of creationists and the academic training, they are indirectly attacking the universities and the professors who granted the degrees.

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And you know, really basically saying those evolutionists were absolute idiots. They were so undiscerning, they could not realize that they were giving a degree to a stupid creationist.

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It's an assault, it's an assault on those academic institutions. Yes. Well, I want our listeners to know that I didn't even,

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I wasn't even aware of this lawsuit that you just mentioned that the Alliance Defending Freedom is involved in.

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In fact, I hired or got the Alliance Defending Freedom to represent my friend

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries years ago to defend

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Dr. White's rights to distribute the video of a debate that he had with ACLU attorney who is now the president of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, Barry Lynn.

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And this was back in the days when it was called the Alliance Defense Fund. And Dr. Lynn was so humiliated after suffering an enormous loss, an obvious palpable loss in his debate with Dr.

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White on is homosexuality compatible with biblical Christianity, that he threatened to sue

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Dr. White if he distributed the video of that debate. And so the Alliance Defending Freedom said that they would be more than happy to represent

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Dr. White. And they told him to file a suit and beat Barry Lynn to the punch, not for money, but just for the rights to distribute the video.

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And Barry Lynn, nor his legal counsel showed up at the hearing.

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So the judge granted in favor of Dr. White and Alpha Omega Ministries. Yeah. But that's a great organization there.

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But I didn't even know about that suit and providential. It was just announced today, so that's why.

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Wow. Well, this is very providential that we even have you on the show today. But next, actually in two weeks from now, on the 24th and the 25th of May, I have a back -to -back program on Old Earth versus Young Earth creationism.

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I have on the 24th of May, Greg Davidson defending an

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Old Earth position. And then the following day, I have Taz Walker defending a

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Young Earth position. And both are geologists and both are

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Christians who take a polar opposite view on the age of the Earth. So I hope that you all make a point to tune in those two days.

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Mark your calendars for the 24th and 25th of May, 4 or 6 p .m. Eastern time.

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And you are familiar with both Greg Davidson and Taz Walker? Yes, I am.

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Could you give our listeners just a brief description of both of them? Well, Taz Walker is a geologist in Australia, works with Creation Ministries International, and I've known

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Taz for a long time. He's a very careful student of the rocks. Greg Davidson is a professor at,

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I think it's Mississippi State, or maybe it's

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University of Mississippi, I can't remember. And I believe he's the head of the geology department.

30:35

He actually had a debate at the

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Evangelical Theological Society with our geologist, Dr. Andrew Snelling, a couple of years ago.

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They had four back -to -back sessions together before a theological audience.

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So I know him from that. And Dr. Snelling and I team -taught the

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Young Earth Perspective for a seminary out in California a couple of years ago, where Greg Davidson and Ken Wolgamuth presented the

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Old Earth View. It was a one -week modular course. So I've had interaction with him as well.

31:16

Well, we're going to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Welcome back.

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This is Chris Sorensen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Dr. Terry Mortensen, and we are discussing his book,

37:27

Searching for Adam, Genesis and the Truth about Man's Origin. This is a discussion we began a couple of months ago, so this is basically part two of our discussion on that theme.

37:38

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

37:44

ChrisArnsen at gmail .com. And we have somebody who has emailed us off topic briefly here.

37:53

Sterling Vanderwerker, pastor of Shepherd Fellowship in Greensboro, North Carolina, says, glad to hear you are back after your overhaul,

38:01

Charlie Liebert. And perhaps, Charlie, this would be an opportunity for you to let our listeners know why you were absent from the program for quite a while.

38:09

Yes, on March 3rd, I had a heart attack and scheduled surgery for bypass on March 20th.

38:15

I had that surgery on the 20th, and I'm six weeks out now, and things have gone very well.

38:21

I attribute that mostly to the prayers for my healing. The tubes that you have for drainage in your body typically come out after 48 hours.

38:30

Mine were out after 24. So God has done some wonderful things in healing my body. Yes, I'm back.

38:37

Praise God. And Reverend Buzz Taylor, did you have a question? Well, yes. I was just kind of curious about the subject, the title of the book,

38:44

Searching for Adam. It almost sounds like something from the History Channel, except for the fact that if it was on the

38:49

History Channel, Adam would end up being an alien or something. Dr.

38:57

Mortensen, if you could tell us about the title, Searching for Adam. Well, I can write content.

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I'm not good at marketing. This was the title that the publisher suggested, and then

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I suggested the subtitle. Yeah, well, they're both good. They're both captivating and so on.

39:23

We have Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia, who says or asks,

39:30

Tim Keller is often quoted from Reformed pulpits. Does he still teach a compromised view of Genesis?

39:39

Well, obviously, it depends upon who you ask about what compromised meaning he has. But according to your views of the

39:47

Young Earth account of the creation of all things, Dr.

39:55

Mortensen, what is your understanding of Tim Keller and his views on Genesis? Well, I watched an interview he had with Eric Metaxas a couple of years ago, in which he said that he was an

40:08

Old Earth creationist. He didn't go into great detail, but he's written a white paper for BioLogos, which is an openly theistic evolutionist organization.

40:23

In fact, the most significant promoter of theistic evolution in America today.

40:30

So he certainly is sympathetic to them if he's going to publish a lengthy paper on their website and be associated with them.

40:43

Well, thank you, Lou. And guess what, Lou, you have also won a free copy of Searching for Adam, Genesis, and the

40:49

Truth about Man's Origin. Please make sure we have your full mailing address in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and that will arrive,

40:58

God willing, shortly from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

41:04

cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com. And we also thank, of course,

41:09

Master Books, who published that work of Dr. Mortensen, for providing these copies of it for our listeners today.

41:18

And let's see, we have Joe all the way in Slovenia.

41:25

He says, Dear Brother Chris, I've never understood how those who promote the day -age theory of creation get around all the later references in both the

41:37

Old Testament and New Testament to the Sabbath day of rest being referred to as one literal 24 -hour period recurring once every seven days.

41:48

How do they justify their equivocation of the meaning of day to mean long periods of time during creation than all of the other times of 24 -hour solar day?

42:00

Thanks for your consistently faithful proclamation of biblical truth. That's Joe from Slovenia.

42:06

And I've thought of that myself, how the old earth creationists turn days into millions of years, and yet we have

42:17

God resting on the seventh day, which was to become the Sabbath day, and that was always understood by his people, the

42:28

Jewish people, as a literal 24 -hour day. We don't have a million -year

42:34

Sabbath, so we have an eternal Sabbath awaiting us after we die, but if you could comment on Joe's question and comment.

42:44

Well, I've observed that the fourth commandment in Exodus 20 is a critical verse for this whole question of the age of the earth, because it clearly equates the days of creation with the days of the

43:00

Jewish work week. And I have found that most old earth proponents completely ignore the fourth commandment.

43:11

They just don't discuss it, most of them. And then when they do, some have tried to get around that verse by saying, well, what it's really emphasizing is a pattern of six and one.

43:26

But if that were the case, God would not use the same Hebrew word in verse 11, which says, for in six days the

43:33

Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. He would have used, he could have used a number of words.

43:43

He could have used the Hebrew word dor, which is translated in the Bible as period or time or generation.

43:49

If he didn't like that, he could have used a phrase like thousands upon thousands of days, or he could have, and he could have used a foreign language, a foreign word like he did in Daniel and Esther or Nehemiah, where he used

44:06

Aramaic words. So God used the only word yom and yamim in plural that means a literal day in both parts of the commandment, the commandment and then the reason for the commandment in Exodus 20 verses 8 to 11.

44:24

Another approach that's been used by John Lennox in England and C.

44:30

John Collins at Covenant Seminary is that it's comparing or contrasting the work of man with the work of God, and that man doesn't create out of nothing whereas God does, but I would contend that the fourth commandment is not contrasting the work of man and the work of God.

44:53

It's equating the week of man and the creation week of God, and so it has nothing to do with man's work and God's work not being the same.

45:06

It has everything to do with the two weeks, the week of creation and a human work week being identical length.

45:14

So most Old Earth proponents ignore that passage, but it's critical, and I'd like to say it is a brick wall, a stone wall against any attempt to fit millions of years anywhere in Genesis because it says in six days

45:33

God created the heavens, the earth, the sea and all that is in them. So he didn't make anything before the six days.

45:40

That means that the first day begins at verse one of Genesis 1, not at verse three when

45:46

God created the light, and there's no way to put millions of years between the days or into the days.

45:55

So it's a really critical verse, and I would add one more thing. Some would say, well, it doesn't say in six days in Hebrew.

46:03

Well, it's true. There's no Hebrew preposition there for the English word in, but take it out.

46:09

It still means the same thing. For six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea and all that is in them.

46:17

Well, thank you, Joe, and you have also won a copy of Searching for Adam, Genesis and the

46:24

Truth about Man's Origin by our guest Dr. Terry Mortensen, and that will be shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and again we thank our friends at Master Books for supplying the copies of this book.

46:37

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, is it true that these skulls that go from ape to man in a display at the

46:48

Museum of Natural History in New York City are not based on actual skulls, but merely tiny bone fragments that artists then used to create from their own imagination what the progression of skulls would look like from evolution from ape to man?

47:05

Well, I wouldn't say it's all bone fragments. There are fairly complete skulls, but often the skulls are broken and have to be pieced together.

47:18

They're often incomplete, and so if you look carefully at the reconstructions, they will show you the actual fossil bones in one color, and the rest of the skull will be in some other color, beige or something, and so that helps you see.

47:38

But often they don't show you that. And so again, the chapter by Dr.

47:45

David Menton in Searching for Adam actually goes through the traveling display by the,

47:54

I think it was produced by the Smithsonian, that's been traveling around the country to public libraries.

48:00

He goes through every one of the the fossil creatures in that display and shows that they're either fully ape or fully human or imaginary creatures.

48:14

I heard that some of those skulls were excavated from Reverend Buzz Taylor's family cemetery.

48:24

Just kidding there, Buzz. But so what are these skulls?

48:32

Are these just different kinds of apes and monkeys and gorillas or what are they? Yeah, they're either fully ape or fully human, or they're imaginary creatures that are a result of mixing bones, misinterpreting the evidence, using a lot of imagination to fill in the parts of the skull that we don't have.

48:55

One of the things that Dr. Menton points out is that a uniqueness of the human skull is that we have this little ridge protruding out between our eyes where we can hook a pair of glasses.

49:10

Apes could never wear glasses because there's nothing there to it would just slide off the face. So and then the way that the spine goes into the skull and the human it's on the bottom of the skull and the ape it's in the in the back of the skull.

49:26

There's very distinct differences and we're just being deceived by a lot of imaginative artwork and assumptions based on incomplete fossil evidence.

49:41

And R .J. you've won the final copy that we've been given of Searching for Adam, Genesis and the

49:47

Truth About Man's Origin. So thank you very much for submitting your question today. We have

49:54

Jerry from Charlestown, New Hampshire who says could you please unpack the difference between what you term origin science and operation science and why understanding the distinction between the two is necessary when considering the origins of the universe and a historical atom?

50:15

Yes I think this is a very very critical distinction that needs to be made because when we talk about operation science or we could call it experimental or observational science it's the science that put a cell phone in everybody's pocket and it gives us our cars and air conditioning and computers and finds cures for disease.

50:39

And it's the result of what we call is often called the scientific method which is the use of repeatable experiments in a controlled environment that's usually in a laboratory to figure out how things operate or function in the present so that we can manipulate those things to produce new technology or find cures for disease or just improve our lives in some way.

51:07

That kind of science however will not answer the question how did the Grand Canyon form?

51:13

It won't answer the question is the body under the slab in the floor of Westminster Abbey Church in London that has chiseled in Charles Darwin.

51:24

Is that really Charles Darwin? You can't take the lid off and ask him. You can't raise him from the dead. You can't recreate him in the laboratory.

51:32

And we don't have any DNA samples from Charles Darwin. So for historical questions which the question of origins is, the question of how did

51:44

Saturn come into existence? How did galaxies come into existence? We have to have what

51:50

I like to call origin science or historical science. And so whereas most of biology, chemistry, physics, engineering research, medical research are in the realm of operation science, historical or origin sciences would include historical geology, paleontology, archaeology, cosmology, even criminal investigation is a form of origin science.

52:16

And there you use eyewitness testimony if any is available and circumstantial evidence that you can see in the present to try to reconstruct what happened in the unobserved, unrepeatable past to produce the evidence that you see in the present.

52:35

And so Darwin didn't observe evolution. Nobody has observed evolution.

52:41

Nobody has observed canyons forming over millions of years. Nobody has observed fossils forming over millions of years.

52:49

Those are stories about the unobserved past to explain the fossils and canyons and living creatures that we see in the present.

52:58

And the area of origin science, the question of origins is heavily influenced by worldview assumptions.

53:08

Because what a person believes about the past and particularly what he believes about the

53:15

Bible will affect what he sees and how he interprets what he sees as he seeks to reconstruct the past.

53:24

And the only difference between the evolutionists and the creationists in the realm of origin science is creationists believe that the

53:32

Bible is the eyewitness testimony of the creator who was there at the beginning, who was there all the way through history, who knows everything, who never makes mistakes, and who inspired that book without error so that we would know the truth.

53:47

Evolutionists deny that God is the eyewitness testimony, that the

53:52

Bible is the eyewitness testimony. Most of them deny that there is a God. Well, obviously, though, our brothers in Christ, who may be in error in regard to an old earth who believe in theistic evolution, they believe that God is the eyewitness to it.

54:07

Yes, but they don't believe that the Bible is his eyewitness testimony.

54:13

They believe it's, you know, it was written by Moses, and you know, maybe they believe it was written by Moses, it depends on how much they've been influenced by liberal critical scholarship.

54:25

But you know, what we argue in Searching for Adam and in Coming to Grips with Genesis is that Genesis is history.

54:36

It's not poetry. It's not a parable. It's not a prophetic vision. It's not some symbolic text.

54:43

It's certainly not a myth or a saga. It's historical narrative from verse one all the way through the book of Genesis.

54:51

And of course, there is a little bit of poetry. I mean, when if you were

54:57

Adam and you'd fallen asleep after naming animals for 10 hours, and you wake up and lay eyes on this beautiful woman, you'd turn poetic real fast.

55:07

Well, I guess any woman would have been beautiful since she was the only one. But we have to go to a break right now.

55:15

And I know that Charlie Liebert has a question for you. But we're gonna have to wait until we return. So don't forget your question, Charlie.

55:21

If anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

55:28

And thank you, Jerry, from Charlestown, New Hampshire. Sorry, we don't have a book for you. But I actually am looking at my records.

55:34

You won the same book last time we had Dr. Mortensen on. So we thank you for submitting a question today anyway.

55:41

And we'll be right back, God willing, after these messages. Tired of bop store

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That's a week, in about a week from now, this coming Monday, May 15th through the 17th on Long Beach, Long Island, at Harvey Cedars Bible Conference Center in New Jersey.

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This is the event being run by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, featuring

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Faithful Shepherd Retreat, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

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click on events, and then click on the Faithful Shepherd. The Rev. Buzz Taylor and I will be manning an exhibitor's booth there,

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God willing, so please greet us at the exhibitor's booth if you come to the event.

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That's May 15th through the 17th at Harvey Cedars Bible Conference Center in Harvey Cedars, New Jersey, which is on Long Beach Island in New Jersey.

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Then coming up shortly after that, the 2017 U .S.

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Ministers Conference being run by the Banner of Truth is being held

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Tuesday, May 30th through Thursday, June 1st at Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

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The theme of the conference is The Living and Enduring Word, and the speakers include

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Joel Beeky, Jeff Thomas, William Vandewoord, Mark Johnston, Jonathan Master, who is my guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron, Carlton Wynn, and Ian Hamilton.

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If you'd like to register for the 2017 U .S. Ministers Conference, go to banneroftruth .org,

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banneroftruth .org, click on Events, and click on U .S. Ministers Conference.

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Following that, in June, June 22nd and June 23rd,

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Sermon Audio is having the Foundations Conference in New York City on 350 West 26th

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Street, and there are going to be a number of excellent speakers at this event as well, including

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Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Dr. Joel Beeky, Phil Johnson, who's the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry,

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Grace to You, Todd Friel, and others. Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, who

01:07:09

I hope to have back on very shortly on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. He's always an excellent guest, both providing comedy relief and a vital truth, which is very rare coming out of the same mouth.

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But if you'd like to register for the Foundations Conference, go to thefoundationsconference .com.

01:07:30

That's thefoundationsconference .com. And also after that,

01:07:37

August 3rd through the 5th, the Fellowship Conference New England is being held in Reverend Buzz Taylor's old stomping grounds in Portland, Maine at the

01:07:47

Deering Center Community Church, and the speakers at this event include

01:07:53

Don Curran, who is with HeartCry Missionary Society, the organization that Paul Washer is involved in, and Mac Tomlinson, a dear friend of mine who's pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

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Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas is also speaking, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who's going to be our guest in a couple of weeks here on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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He's the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

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And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, what am I saying?

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If you'd like to join us at the Fellowship Conference New England, I should say, in Maine, you can go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

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fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. And last but not least, I am now announcing next year's

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G3 conference, the 2018 G3 conference. I have just heard from Pastor Josh Bice, who is the director of the

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G3 conference. He is also the pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church in the

01:09:14

Atlanta, Georgia area. This is going to be an exciting conference.

01:09:19

I've just heard word from Pastor Bice that I am also going to have an exhibitor's booth there at that conference, compliments of the staff at G3 conference and compliments of the congregation at Praise Mill Baptist Church.

01:09:38

This is going to be another exciting conference, I am sure, with speakers that I'm sure will be of great edification to all of you who attend.

01:09:52

And those speakers, many of them are the same speakers that were at last year's conference, and there are also some new additions.

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We have folks such as Paul Washer speaking and Ted Schripp, and we have

01:10:11

Josh Bice himself, my dear friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Derek Thomas is going to be there, and Tom Askell, and many others.

01:10:23

So if you'd like to register for the G3 conference for 2018, which is being held in January of 2018, go to g3conference .com,

01:10:36

g3conference .com, and please, if you register for any of these events, tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:10:49

That would mean a lot to me, and I really look forward to meeting as many of you as possible at that conference.

01:10:57

The G3 conference is where I, more than any other place, have met face -to -face for the first time listeners in the

01:11:07

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience, and it was such a joy last time to meet so many of you at the

01:11:13

G3 conference, and I hope that that happens again, and I hope I meet many more of you who I have yet to meet at the

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G3 conference. So just go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

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01:12:58

That's also the same address. If you have a question for Dr. Terry Mortensen, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:13:05

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We are now back to our discussion with Dr. Mortensen on his book,

01:13:11

Searching for Adam, Genesis and the Truth about Man's Origin, which is a topic we began a couple of months ago and we invited

01:13:18

Dr. Mortensen back to continue this discussion. And before the break, Charlie Liebert had a question or comment for you,

01:13:27

Dr. Mortensen. Charlie, do you remember what that was? Yes, I had a comment talking about this thing of historical versus operational science.

01:13:34

I teach a course in law for a community college, and carrying this into the area of law, it's really interesting to look at this because if science could prove what happened in the past, we wouldn't need jury trials.

01:13:46

We would simply have to, you know, come to a conclusion. So if you look at the way a jury trial works, it works just like science.

01:13:52

You bring evidence, the evaluators look at the evidence and come to a conclusion. That's what the origins debate is like.

01:13:59

It's never science versus faith. It has to do with historical science and operational science.

01:14:06

Operational being the real data and then the interpretation of that being the origins. And Dr.

01:14:12

Mortensen, do you have any comment on Charlie's comment? Yeah, I think there's an exact similarity between a criminal trial and the origins debate.

01:14:26

You know, you can do some scientific experiments in the lab to try to simulate what you think might have happened, but that is only a simulation and it has an analogical relationship to what actually happened.

01:14:46

So, you know, you could do a flume experiment where you have a long tank and you pour in a bunch of sand and mud and gravel and moving water and you watch to see what happens at the end of the tank when the water slows down, what kind of deposits it makes.

01:15:03

And you could say, well, okay, now that's a very similar kind of deposit that we see in this

01:15:09

Grand Canyon layer. And that's an analogy, but that still doesn't prove that this

01:15:17

Grand Canyon layer that is 10 ,000 square miles and 300 feet thick was formed exactly the way your flume experiment says.

01:15:26

So trying to reconstruct the past is different than trying to manipulate things in the present to produce technology.

01:15:36

And that's particularly true of Steve Austin's work at Mount St. Helens. Yeah, exactly. That was very important.

01:15:42

Yes. Yeah. Okay. And let's get to some of the unique things that you discuss about the origins of man in the book.

01:15:54

I know that you go through quite a number of sections on genetics and human anatomy.

01:16:05

Let's start with genetics confirms the recent supernatural creation of Adam and Eve.

01:16:14

Well, what Dr. Jensen and Dr. Tompkins do is they talk about what constitutes a convincing genetics argument.

01:16:28

And I worked really hard with those two authors because I'm not a geneticist.

01:16:34

And I wanted this to be understandable to a non geneticist. It's going to be probably the most difficult chapter for most readers, but they've got some diagrams and illustrations that help.

01:16:49

And I think they've done a really good job. But they show that really, the genetics shows that man is unique.

01:17:01

He's not descended from an ape. And he man came into existence recently.

01:17:09

If man is as old as the evolutionists say, the amount of mutations in the human genome should be orders of magnitude higher than they are.

01:17:21

And what we see fits with the biblical timescale. And if you could also explain a little bit about what is contained in the section about human anatomy, unique, upright design.

01:17:39

Well, Dr. Stuart Burgess is a professor of design engineering at Bristol University in England.

01:17:47

He in fact, won an award because of his team, the team he led designed the physical design of the bikes for the

01:18:04

British biking team that won them a gold medal. So he's a he's a brilliant scientist.

01:18:12

And he's also was involved in designing a part of one of the satellites that the

01:18:19

European Space Administration put into space. And so in these two chapters, he looks at a number of different aspects of human anatomy, in contrast to ape anatomy, and just shows that that man really is unique.

01:18:38

And the way he stands up and the way he can use his five digits in his hand with precision and the amount of hair he has and the facial muscles, and the human that allows us to make so many different facial expressions, and in a lot of different ways, man is really unique from the apes.

01:19:02

But we have seen even in the animal world that there are animals that use tools.

01:19:08

Wasn't it once believed that animals could not use tools and yet we see like otters using rocks to break open oysters and things like that?

01:19:17

Yeah, but they don't make tools. And their tools are, you know, orders of magnitude simpler than anything that man makes.

01:19:28

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, I get the impression that old earth creationists view themselves as rescuing the

01:19:38

Christian faith from embarrassment because of the fact that the young earth creationists are teaching things that are laughably unscientific.

01:19:47

How do you respond to this kind of rhetoric? Well, it is just rhetoric and it's name -calling.

01:19:56

And I've been involved in seven formal debates with PhD evolutionists, scientists in four different countries.

01:20:06

I'm happy to debate any Christian on this issue, but I find that the old earth creationists, they don't want to debate.

01:20:15

And they, by and large, they ignore our literature. I've read a lot of literature by old earth creationists and both their text and the footnotes reveal they're not reading what we've written.

01:20:31

They're not refuting what we've written. They often misrepresent what we say.

01:20:38

And then other times they raise very shallow arguments, objections that creationists have refuted for years in our literature.

01:20:50

So, again, it's really sad that they will attack the character and the academic credentials of young earth creationists and they're really resorting to the same kind of tactics that evolutionists use to try to discredit what we say.

01:21:12

But before Charlie Liebert gives his comment or question, the charges have been very serious because they believe that many of these folks who are old earth creationists are believing that eternity is at stake here because you have people who are walking away laughing at Christianity and rejecting all of its claims, including the most important, the gospel of Jesus Christ, because if they are immediately disenchanted with the

01:21:47

Christian faith because they believe our accounts of the origins of man and the universe are nothing more than buffoonery, why else would they believe in anything else that we have to say?

01:22:01

That seems to be the level of seriousness that many, not all, but many of the old earths are bringing this debate to that point of severity.

01:22:12

Yeah, and I would just say we need to have a little bit of a historical perspective on this question because for the last 200 years the majority of the church has accepted the millions of years.

01:22:25

The majority of Christian theologians, Bible scholars, scientists have accepted the millions of years and in Western Europe, Great Britain, and North America.

01:22:37

And in those last 200 years, what have we seen happen to Europe and North America?

01:22:44

Have we seen the cultures become more Christian, more open to the truth of the gospel, more open to an accepting of biblical morality?

01:22:54

Has the church become just much more biblical over those 200 years?

01:23:00

No, we've seen exactly the opposite. The church's compromise with millions of years has led to theological liberalism, to the cultures of Western Europe and Great Britain and North America to become increasingly hostile to the gospel and resistant to it.

01:23:20

And the fact of the matter is, we have lots of people that have written to us or come and talk to us at Answers in Genesis who have said, it was evolution, it was millions of years that was keeping me from the gospel, and it was when somebody gave me a book or a

01:23:38

DVD that opened my eyes that this is not science, it's philosophy masquerading as science that I saw,

01:23:47

I can trust the bible, I can trust the gospel in the bible because I can trust the history in the bible right from the very first verse.

01:23:55

And the fact of the matter is, it's not young earth creationism that's turning people away, it's the brainwashing that's going on in the educational system, in the science institutes, in the universities, and most churches are not equipping their young people with answers or their lay people, and the kids who get deceived by this are not kids who are taught young earth creation, but kids who are taught young earth creation without any apologetics, without any defense.

01:24:28

They're just said, well just believe the bible, and they're not given any answers. They're the kids that fall, but the kids who are really grounded in creation apologetics, they stand strong in the face of that challenge.

01:24:42

And Charlie Lieber, you had a question? Yeah, the claim that the young earth creationists make laughable claims,

01:24:50

I've had that thrown at me dozens of times, and my response is always, well tell me one, and it usually gets very quiet in the room.

01:24:58

Yeah. Because they're just repeating something that they've been told.

01:25:04

Yep, and here's the other thing, the same scientific community that laughs at creationists for believing in young earth creation, also laughs at the church for believing in the virgin birth and the resurrection.

01:25:17

So if you're going to bow the knee to the scientific majority, you've got to reject the whole bible, because they think the whole thing is just a joke.

01:25:27

Yes, it seems that there are many people, regardless of whether it's the scientific realm or other areas of life, that are desperate to receive the acceptance of the intelligentsia or the academic elite of this world.

01:25:48

They are embarrassed by biblical claims and seek so desperately to be accepted by the intelligentsia of this world that they are willing to bend or deny biblical data.

01:26:06

Yep, and the bible warns us of the fear of man, and it condemns people in the gospels for seeking the praise of man.

01:26:16

Now, you mentioned John Lennox earlier. I don't know a lot about him, but I've heard him speak publicly,

01:26:23

I've seen him debate. He seems to be a humble and ironic person.

01:26:29

He doesn't seem to be the kind of person that would mock or belittle young earth creationists.

01:26:36

Am I right on that assessment? Yeah, he would not be. He would be very civil, yep.

01:26:42

I know him a little bit. I've actually stayed in his home when

01:26:48

I was working on my PhD. But he is, in all sincerity, and he's written a lot of good things in response to atheism and other things, but he doesn't believe

01:27:09

Genesis. He holds to a view that I would describe as the gap -day -gap -day view.

01:27:14

He believes there's an indeterminate amount of time before verse three, which he considers the beginning of day one, and then he believes that the days are literal, but there's an indeterminate amount of time between the days.

01:27:28

And I was in a debate, kind of a debate conference, in 2011 in Birmingham, Alabama, sponsored by the

01:27:39

Fixed Point Foundation. And John Lennox was there, and during his one -hour

01:27:45

Q &A time with the audience, he was asked directly, do you believe there was death before the fall?

01:27:52

And he didn't answer the question. He answered a different question. He answered the question, was the fall historical?

01:27:59

And he believes it was, but he didn't answer the question, was there millions of years of death before the fall?

01:28:05

And then another person asked, do you believe the flood was global? And he didn't answer that question either.

01:28:11

He answered the question, was the flood historical? And he believes it was historical, but the issue is, was it global?

01:28:19

And did it have anything to do with the geological record? So he's written a book called

01:28:27

The Seven Days that Divide the World, in which he argues for his Old Earth view, and it's a very disappointing book, in my opinion.

01:28:38

And this was John Lennox you're referring to? Yes. We are going to our final break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, now is the time to send it in.

01:28:49

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01:29:00

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01:29:14

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01:29:26

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01:29:32

And we will be right back after these messages, so don't go away. What were those pictures?

01:29:41

They were pictures of a... Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

01:29:49

Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

01:29:54

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the

01:30:00

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01:30:06

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01:30:13

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01:30:56

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We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Welcome back.

01:34:17

If you just tuned us in, our guest for the last 90 minutes and the next half hour to come has been and will continue to be

01:34:25

Dr. Terry Mortensen. We have been and will continue discussing his book,

01:34:31

Searching for Adam, Genesis and the Truth about Man's Origin. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own before we run out of time, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:34:42

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

01:34:53

USA. And you have a section in this book, Dr. Mortensen, titled

01:35:01

Ancient Man, Genius or Primitive? And the reason why I find that particularly interesting is that I recently saw a movie.

01:35:12

I don't know if you've seen it or not or even aware of it.

01:35:18

I'm just losing my tongue here for some reason. But there's a movie that was out and it's on the television right now,

01:35:28

I believe on Netflix, called Finding Altamira, Finding Altamira, A -L -T -A -M -I -R -A, starring

01:35:37

Antonio Banderas. And he is playing, apparently, an actual true figure from history, an archaeologist who in the late 19th century discovered a cave with ancient paintings.

01:35:56

And the thing that is interesting about this movie is that although the archaeologist that Antonio Banderas is portraying, although he was an evolutionist himself and not a

01:36:09

Christian, in fact his wife plays a devout Roman Catholic who is going through her own trial as her husband is kind of battling with the church over his denial of the biblical account of creation.

01:36:27

The archaeologist in the movie, who is apparently a true person from history from the 19th century, he is actually battling with the other evolutionists, the

01:36:40

Darwinian evolutionists, who are insisting that ancient man could not have painted the paintings that he discovered because they were too expertly done, if you will.

01:36:56

They were not primitive enough for these have been created by ancient man.

01:37:02

Are you aware of this movie or of this historical figure that the movie is based upon?

01:37:08

No, I'm not. But there are lots of other things from the ancient world that they want to dismiss.

01:37:17

You know, Eric Van Donnegan had his idea, his book,

01:37:22

The Chariots of the Gods, who built the pyramids for the Egyptians. The evolutionary view is that man evolved from apes, so the farther we go back, the more primitive and stupid and ignorant they were, and that's simply not what the archaeological evidence shows.

01:37:46

So go into further detail about this section in your book. Well, it's a review of just some of the evidence for the intelligence of man.

01:38:00

You know, we don't have a lot before Abraham, but in Genesis 4,

01:38:09

Cain built a city, and he was a farmer right from the start.

01:38:14

Abel was a keeper of flocks. Jubal was a musician and invented musical instruments.

01:38:21

Jubal and Cain, six generations after Cain, they had figured out mining and metallurgy and making bronze and iron.

01:38:32

So Genesis clearly reveals that the ancients were very intelligent, and obviously they were explorers, they were inquisitive, they were experimenting with things.

01:38:44

And then Noah, we like to say that experts built the

01:38:49

Titanic and Noah built the ark. He had to have incredible intelligence and skills in engineering and all kinds of things to make an ark with his sons and no doubt others who worked on the ark, who didn't believe that the flood was coming, just like we had people working on our ark encounter here in northern

01:39:15

Kentucky who weren't believers, but it was a job. But then after the flood, we see the

01:39:22

Tower of Babel and then the great works of the

01:39:28

Egyptians and their pyramids and Machu Picchu in Peru and the

01:39:33

Chinese building the Great Wall of China and their terracotta army that they uncovered.

01:39:42

Just amazing, amazing abilities and skills. So the chapter just gives a little bit of a glimpse on what ancient man did.

01:39:55

One of the ones that struck me most was the architecture of the Incas, because the construction of those things at 12 ,000 -13 ,000 feet of blocks that we couldn't even move today and then cut to perfection is beyond anything even our technology today would have difficulty doing.

01:40:13

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a knife edge. You couldn't fit a piece of paper between those blocks.

01:40:20

And some of the way like 29 tons or something. I mean, huge, huge, huge box. Well, and even

01:40:27

Solomon, and they cut the trees in Lebanon and floated them down the

01:40:32

Mediterranean coast and carried them in huge, huge stones, and they were cut on location, not at the temple.

01:40:43

These people were brilliant. Incredible craftsmen. Yeah, that's true. What can you tell us about the chapter in your book,

01:40:53

Humanity's Shared History of Reflecting the Truth of Genesis 1 -11? Well, this is an interesting chapter as well.

01:41:02

There are over 200 flood traditions of people groups around the world. Many of them don't live near an ocean.

01:41:09

And they're stories of a great flood, in many cases, a global flood.

01:41:15

And there are a number of details like eight people being saved in a boat, along with animals and sending a dove out or a bird out after the floodwaters had started to recede.

01:41:28

These all point to a real event. And there are also creation stories and stories of man falling.

01:41:41

And the Tower of Babel, they're corrupted stories because they're among pagan peoples who lost contact with the true account, which is recorded in Genesis.

01:41:52

But they point to real events, and the events are described accurately in Genesis.

01:42:02

And one thing that I'd like to bring up before we run out of time is that I, although I am a strongly convicted young earth creationist,

01:42:18

I do welcome individuals who have old earth views as my brothers in Christ.

01:42:26

In fact, one of my oldest Christian friends is

01:42:33

Ken Samples, who is with the Reasons to Believe organization, and I've had him on my program many times, although Ken has never addressed this issue on my program because he's not a scientist and he exclusively addresses theological matters that I agree with him on for the most part.

01:42:54

But don't we who are young earth advocates, as passionately as we defend our beliefs and so on, don't we have to be careful about not crossing the line and discounting our brethren who disagree as unbelievers and as just sinister monsters, if you will?

01:43:18

Yeah, oh absolutely. And I don't think, I mean, I'm not aware of any prominent creationists from any of the creationist organizations who talk about their old earth

01:43:33

Christian brethren in that kind of language. We don't deny that they're

01:43:38

Christians. We don't say they're going to hell or that they're, you know, demon -possessed or anything like that.

01:43:45

We've never done that. We strongly disagree with them, and we believe just as they believe, but from a different perspective.

01:43:54

We believe that the gospel is at stake, and we believe that the authority of scripture is under massive assault, and that's why we're so passionate about this.

01:44:04

It's not because we think that God doesn't like big numbers and it just really bothers him when we talk about millions and billions.

01:44:11

It's what the evolutionist scientific community says happened in those millions of years.

01:44:18

It's millions of years of death and bloodshed and violence and disease in a time period that God calls in Genesis 1 very good, and it ends up undermining what the

01:44:31

Bible says about the fall and the cosmic impact of the fall and the final redemptive work of Christ when he comes to redeem the whole creation.

01:44:43

And so it's a very, very serious issue, and we are passionate about it because we believe that the gospel and the authority of scripture are at stake.

01:44:54

But we don't accuse our old earth brethren of being intentionally deceptive and being lost in sin or anything like that.

01:45:06

And so sometimes it's interpreted that way just because we are saying this is an issue of gospel consistency or coherency.

01:45:19

Right, and Charlie Liebert has another comment or question. Yeah, I had a comment. I was created from atheism at about age 35, and the showstopper for me,

01:45:27

I mean, I came out of evolutionary... You were created from atheism? No, I was converted from atheism.

01:45:33

Oh, I think you said created. I'm sorry, I was converted from atheism at 35. So I wrestled with these issues for the first three or four years of my

01:45:43

Christian life, and I read Barker, Gish, Ham, all the guys that wrote. And if you will, I evolved into a young earth creationist.

01:45:52

And the reason for that simply is the theological issue, not the scientific issue. Because ultimately when you come down to six days and very good, and he looks at everything he's made at the end of the sixth day, those things are theological issues that I don't see old earth getting past.

01:46:08

To me, they're real stumpers. I mean, I don't know how you can get past those and say, yes,

01:46:15

I really believe the scripture. How do they try to? I mean, do they try to? A couple of years ago, we have a group of four paper sessions at the annual meeting of the

01:46:27

Evangelical Theological Society. I'm on the steering committee to organize those. And a couple of years ago, we dealt with the question in our four sessions, the question of whether there was death before the fall.

01:46:39

And I was able to present the paper that year saying, no, there wasn't.

01:46:45

But Dr. Hugh Ross from Reasons to Believe argues, and he has for decades, that yes, there was.

01:46:53

And he says that all of this happened from the very beginning.

01:46:59

And I think that is a serious, serious misapprehension of the scriptures.

01:47:08

If death came by Adam, that makes no sense at all. No. And Genesis 3 and Romans chapter 8, and even

01:47:18

Genesis 5 .22, a verse that everybody just meditates on all the time.

01:47:24

Genesis 5 .29, when Noah was born, Lamech said, maybe this one will liberate us from the curse which the

01:47:33

Lord has put upon the ground. And he uses the same word for curse and the same word for ground.

01:47:39

So here, 1 ,100 years after Adam fell, right in the front of is the fact that he lives in a fallen, cursed creation.

01:47:50

And so Romans 8 talks about the fact that the whole creation is groaning in bondage to corruption.

01:47:57

And in the history of the church, the vast majority of Bible teachers and scholars have commented on that, have said, that's what happened in Genesis 3.

01:48:05

But to accept millions of years, then we have to say, well, no, that's the God created the world in bondage to corruption.

01:48:14

And that just, to me, that's an assault on the character of God. And that's a serious, serious issue.

01:48:21

Absolutely. Well, now, when you explain that, it sounds so reasonable. What could somebody possibly say against that?

01:48:29

Well, they try to look for verses, and they do look for verses that they interpret a verse in Psalm 104 that talks about lions eating other creatures.

01:48:42

And then they say, well, let's see, that's a creation psalm. No, it's not. There are only a few verses in that psalm that refer to Genesis 1.

01:48:51

There's a few verses that verses 6 to 9 refer, I believe, to the flood. And the rest of the psalm is talking about the creation at the time the psalmist was writing, not

01:49:01

Genesis 1. And then they point to Job chapter 38, which also has a verse referring to animals eating other animals.

01:49:08

And they say, see, that's another creation account. No, it's not. Job 38 to 41 is almost exclusively talking about the creation at the time of Job, because God keeps saying, now look at this, look at that.

01:49:24

Do you know about this? Do you know about that? It's not a creation account. So it's not proof that there were carnivores before the fall, because Genesis 1, the last three verses say, before it says, very good, it says that both man and the animals were vegetarian.

01:49:42

So it's a result of ignoring verses like the fourth commandment, ignoring what

01:49:50

Jesus said in Mark 10, 6, when he was asked a question about divorce. He said, from the beginning of creation,

01:49:58

God made them male and female. And so Jesus believed that Adam was back there at the beginning of creation, not 13 .8

01:50:08

billion years after the beginning. So there's just, the scriptures are overwhelmingly in favor of the young earth view.

01:50:15

And there's, to get millions, fit millions of years into the Bible, you have to ignore a lot of verses and do what many would call, not exegesis, but eisegesis.

01:50:28

You have to read it into the text. It's not there, any sound principles of biblical interpretation.

01:50:35

One of the questions that I like to ask my old earth Christians is this one, is the reason you're old earth, because you do not want to engage in the spiritual warfare.

01:50:47

And that usually evokes some interesting reactions. Yeah. I mean, Jesus said the world's going to hate us.

01:50:54

It's going to go against us in every way. And we, you know, it's hard for us in America, we've kind of been distorted by our unique cultural context.

01:51:04

Most Christians around the world have faced persecution of one sort or another. We're starting to see it here.

01:51:11

And I think it'll probably increase, which, you know, isn't fun, but it'll be good for the church.

01:51:16

Yes, it will. Is it heretical to be happy about the fall because you love the taste of barbecue?

01:51:27

No, because in Genesis 9 -3, God gave permission to eat meat. That's right, exactly.

01:51:33

But didn't that come about after the fall? What's that? That came about after the fall, though, correct?

01:51:39

Yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. Actually, after the flood. Yeah. Can you please summarize, before we run out of time,

01:51:50

Adam, morality, the gospel, and the authority of Scripture? Well, what

01:51:55

I did in this chapter was I poured out my heart about what

01:52:01

I see happening. And I asked the question, how did we get to the place where evangelical scholars who profess to believe in inerrancy are doubting or denying a literal

01:52:13

Adam? And how did we get to the place where marriage and gender and human sexuality, where our nation is in absolute moral chaos, how did we get to this place?

01:52:29

And so I traced some of the historical development, and it's related to my own

01:52:34

PhD research. It started with the rejection of the biblical chronology and the biblical flood 200 years ago.

01:52:42

Most of the church compromised with millions of years. And then Darwin's theory came along, and much of the church that is now theologically liberal compromised with Darwin's theory.

01:52:53

And then the Big Bang Theory came in the 20th century, and Christians just keep caving in, and now they're caving in on Adam.

01:53:02

And so I really tried to tie all of those things together and say, they're all related.

01:53:09

And we're facing a massive assault on the truth, reliability, and authority of the

01:53:17

Scriptures. And I believe it is the greatest attack on the

01:53:23

Scriptures in our generation, and it's worldwide. I just got back from two very intense weeks speaking on creation in Romania, the

01:53:32

Czech Republic, and Austria, and they're just hammered with this, just like every other country.

01:53:41

And they don't have very many resources. But the Word of God is under attack today.

01:53:48

And this is the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. We're dealing with some different things than Luther was.

01:53:57

I mean, we still have some of the same with the Roman Catholic teachings. But the great, greatest challenge to the truth and authority of Scripture is this whole question of origins.

01:54:10

And you look at what happens when any politician even hints that he might not believe in evolution, he's crucified.

01:54:19

Yeah, and I am baffled when these politicians remain silent about the racist origins of evolution.

01:54:27

That they never quote the full title of Darwin's Origin of the

01:54:34

Species, which is the quest for preservation of favored racers and the struggle for survival, or something like that.

01:54:44

Do you have the exact subtitle in front of you? I don't have it right in front of me, but that's pretty close. And favored races being the key word there.

01:54:55

And people don't bring up Margaret Sanger's racist policies that were intended to erase blacks and other minorities from the face of the earth.

01:55:09

Why is it that they remain silent about that? If you're going to admit you don't believe in evolution, why not give the full story?

01:55:15

Well, most of our politicians are just totally ignorant on this issue.

01:55:20

They went through the same public schools, the same universities. They were brainwashed just like everybody else.

01:55:28

They watch the same science programs on television, they go to the same state and national parks, and they read the signs.

01:55:34

And that's why we have a chapter in Searching for Adam on evolution, racism, and the scientific vindication of Genesis.

01:55:43

And evolution was the driving force behind all the communist regimes,

01:55:51

Hitler, Margaret Sanger, the whole abortion and eugenics movement. Hundreds of millions of people, both inside the womb and outside the womb, have been murdered because of people who applied the evolutionary thinking to their political and ethical worldview.

01:56:13

And it is, it's just absolutely the most destructive idea to ever be forced on the minds of people.

01:56:24

And it's global. I found the full title, original title of Darwin's masterpiece,

01:56:32

I say sarcastically, On the Origin of Species by the Means of Natural Selection or the

01:56:39

Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life.

01:56:45

I would love for Chris Matthews and Bill Maher and all these other TV personalities who laugh hysterically and mock those conservative politicians who do not believe in evolution.

01:57:00

I would love for them to explain that. I would love for them to explain how civilized and intellectual and modern that idea is as they seek to ridicule everyone outside of their understanding of what is true and false.

01:57:26

And it's, go ahead. You know, there are Christians in the past and probably some even still today who are racist towards black people.

01:57:39

But, or there are blacks who are racist towards whites too. It's not a one -way street.

01:57:46

And yet it's because they don't understand the biblical truth about human origins.

01:57:52

And what the Bible clearly teaches is that there is only one race, Adam's race.

01:57:58

And there's not a black race and a white race and a yellow race and a brown race. The difference between us is literally skin deep.

01:58:06

And we all have the same color. It's just some of us have more color than others, but we all have the same pigment in our skin.

01:58:12

And there's absolutely no basis for racist attitudes, biblically or scientifically.

01:58:19

Science confirms what Genesis says, one race. And of course, just because a person who claims to be a

01:58:26

Christian is racist doesn't mean they are truly a Christian. But we're out of time right now.

01:58:34

And I want our listeners to know that the website for Answers in Genesis is answersingenesis .org,

01:58:40

answersingenesis .org. The publisher who provided the books today, New Leaf Publishing Group, which is also connected with Master Books.

01:58:51

Their website is nlpg .com, nl for New Leaf, pg for Publishing Group, dot com.

01:59:00

And do you have any other contact information you care to give? Just answersingenesis .org

01:59:07

is the way to reach us. We got over 10 ,000 articles on our website, just about any question people could think of.

01:59:15

And two of the two chapters that I wrote for the Adam book are also on our website.

01:59:20

And don't forget, Charlie Liebert's website is sixdaycreation .com, sixdaycreation .com.

01:59:27

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially all of you who took the time to write in questions. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater

01:59:38

Savior than you are a sinner. Dr. Mortensen, I look forward to having you return to Iron Sharpens Iron in the very near future, and often thereafter,

01:59:46

God willing. All right. God bless you. God bless you. Everyone, I would appreciate your prayers, your continued prayers for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.