BOOK STUDY: The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom (Part Three)

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Welcome part three, um, hopefully you guys got a chance to read the chapters. If not, that's totally worth reading.

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Probably some of the best sections of the book are in those chapters. Um, I really enjoyed kind of refreshing going through it.

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I think it may have been, I would agree. Maybe in the third time I've gone through these chapters, um,

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I've really enjoyed, I've enjoyed it so much. So what we're going to do is we're going to, because there's so much material, um, we're going to kind of walk through it.

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So I'm going to let Justin start with Abrahamic covenant, and then he and I will kind of just work with each other as we walk through the three major covenants, and then towards the end, we'll start asking or answering your guys' questions as it relates to, uh, anything that has to do with in these, um, four chapters.

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So Justin, start us off with an overview of the Abrahamic covenant and the connections between the covenant of grace, because that's kind of where we're picking up covenant works, covenant of grace.

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Now we're getting the Abrahamic covenant. Yeah, cool. So I'm going to try to, to set the table for the conversation quickly.

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And then what we want to do is give a summary of the content of these four chapters where we might not be just regurgitating exactly what

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Sam says, because John and I, even before we, we came on here tonight, chatted briefly.

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And, and we are in agreement with Sam in terms of his understanding of covenant theology in particular, as it pertains to these three covenants, we in having conversation naturally,

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I think are going to say a lot of what Sam wrote in our own language, which we hope will be helpful to you.

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And if you have particular questions about anything that Sam wrote specifically, we can always handle that in the Q and a time. So, uh, in the, in the last, um, session of this number two, session two, we considered the kingdom of creation and in particular, the

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Adamic covenant or the covenant of works that God made with Adam, as well as the covenant that God made with Noah.

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And now tonight we are going to consider the kingdom of Israel as Sam will define it.

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And we are going to be considering tonight, the old covenant, which is comprised of the Abrahamic covenant, the

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Mosaic covenant, and the Davidic covenant. The three of those together make up what is referred to as the old covenant.

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So that in and of itself is an important and useful thing for us to understand when we were talking about the old covenant versus the new, that's what we mean.

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The Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic covenants together comprise that old covenant. So we'll begin with Abraham.

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The Abrahamic covenant is of course, the covenant that God makes with Abraham. Abraham is the federal head or the covenant head of that covenant.

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And I would want to begin by trying to articulate the two things, the two main high level things that are going on with Abraham.

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So God does, in Genesis 12, 15, 17, God does make the promise to Abraham of the covenant of grace.

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And so what we mean by that is that the covenant of grace that we will understand or we understand to be accomplished and fulfilled, established in Christ in the new covenant is promised to Abraham, though the

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Abrahamic covenant is not the covenant of grace proper. So the promise is there, and we are going to learn a lot about the new covenant and about the

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Christ, the Messiah, who would come to accomplish the new covenant through Abraham, Moses, and David, though we would not understand that the

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Abrahamic covenant is the covenant of grace. So that promise exists, and then God makes a covenant with Abraham to do several things.

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He is going to make a nation out of him. He is going to make kings come from his line, and he is also going to give that nation a land that will be theirs.

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So a people, kings, and land is what he promises to Abraham. The covenant sign that he gives to Abraham is the sign of circumcision, and that is how the people of God, those who are a part of the

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Abrahamic covenant are marked off from the rest of the world. We know that God will unconditionally accomplish those promises that he makes to Abraham on behalf of the people, though there are individuals who are cut off from that covenant through their disobedience, and we can unpack some of that more, so it is important that we understand that the promises that God makes to Abraham are fulfilled immediately, and they are accomplished through what

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God does in Israel. The geopolitical reality, the nation of Israel, is a part of that fulfillment, that accomplishment of the

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Abrahamic covenant. The fact that kings, namely the line of David, would come from Abraham is an accomplishment of fulfillment of the

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Abrahamic covenant, and the conquest of Canaan, God giving Israel a land, is accomplishment and fulfillment of the

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Abrahamic covenant. And of course, we are going to talk about this in a minute, all of those things point to greater realities to come that are of eternal significance, and they point to Christ and the new covenant that will usher in those eternal promises and accomplish them on behalf of the elect.

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So, that was a lot. Hopefully, that wasn't me shooting from the hip there, and I hope it's helpful.

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John, please jump in. Yeah, some helpful things. I think it will also help you in your teaching of the

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Bible and understanding how God interacts with humanity in the Old Testament, underneath the old covenant, compared to the new covenant.

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God's promises to Abraham were to the nation, but not individuals. So, there was one individual to Abraham, and then from his seed, his one seed, these promises would come.

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But it didn't mean that every single person that was in the covenant or that was circumcised had the guaranteed promise they would enter into the promised land, because we do know that Moses and an entire generation died before they were allowed to enter into the promised land.

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So, there's an unconditional nature to the promises, but that was to the nation, not necessarily individuals.

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We know right afterwards in Exodus, God goes out after the golden calf incident, and he wanted to kill all of Israel.

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Of course, what does Moses do? He reminds them, you can't do that because you promised that you're going to bring them into the land, and they would be this great nation.

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So, he kills some of them. So, his interactions with them, he is dealing with a particular unconditional promise to the nation, but not to the individual, which is very different when we get to the new covenant.

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One other thing to say about the Abrahamic covenant, it does make way for the new covenant, the covenant of grace as well.

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What I mean is this, through Abraham, God promised to make a nation from whom the seed would come, through which

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God would save the nations. So, the point and the purpose at the most basic fundamental level of not only

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Abraham, but even Israel itself as a nation, is to produce, to give birth to, to make way for the

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Christ to come. So, this is how God is continuing to unfold his plan of redemption on the pages of Scripture as it plays out in time and space.

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So, this is when Reformed Baptists, Particular Baptists, Covenantal Baptists, whatever we want to call ourselves, when we will use the language of farther steps, the promise of the covenant of grace is given at first in Genesis 3 .15,

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and then it is revealed through farther steps through the rest of the Old Testament, and that it is accomplished and established through Christ in the new covenant.

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This is a big piece of those farther steps, what God does through Abraham, and certainly through Moses and David, which we're about to talk about.

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So, you have the establishment of the Abrahamic covenant, and then on the heels of that, the way in which

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I think Sam explains this, I think is helpful. You have the Mosaic covenant, and really the

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Mosaic covenant is what governs and brings you the promises of the

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Abrahamic covenant. So, you have the promises of the land, and so you have God using the

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Mosaic covenant as a form of guidance and governance of who it would be to receive the blessings and the protections while they're in the land, or going into land and then while in the land.

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So, I think a lot of that setup is there. I think that this is where we would say our understanding of covenant theology is slightly going to be different, but the

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Abrahamic covenant and the Mosaic covenant do work hand -in -hand and do work together and are both part of the

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Old Covenant because of the way in which the nature of the promises. So, there's a promise of the covenant of grace, but the actual covenant that's going to come, these ones...

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So, we're going to go ahead and skip ahead a little bit because this is going to make it easier. The Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic are all making a pathway for the new covenant.

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I mean, God even says this in Deuteronomy. He says, you're all going to fail this covenant. I'm just going to warn you ahead of time, and there's going to be a necessity for another one.

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So, the Mosaic covenant, like John said, governs and controls the

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Abrahamic covenant. It's also going to govern and control the Davidic covenant too, and we'll get to that in just a moment.

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So, God is giving his people the law, and we would understand, again, as 1689

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Federalists, we would understand that the Mosaic covenant is a covenant of works with gracious provision.

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So, it is not the covenant of works proper, meaning it's not the covenant that God made with Adam, but it is a type of it, is a kind of covenant of works with gracious provision, namely the sacrificial system, atonement for sin, where people can be ceremonially clean under that law, unlike the covenant of works

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God made with Adam, where one transgression meant it's over and done, and there is no way to be made clean again once you've broken the covenant.

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So, it's not exactly like the covenant of works is a type of it, and some Reformed Baptists, some 1689

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Federalists will use the language of republication or reissuing of a covenant of works with respect to Moses, and John and I are fine with that language and our own understanding of it.

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There's even some Presbyterians who use it. They will, though we would argue they're inconsistent in that.

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That's right. And we can maybe talk about that later. Yeah. So, the Abrahamic covenant and Mosaic covenant are pointing us forward, but they also do point back.

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Sam points this out as an example on page 108. He says, if Israel obeys the

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Mosaic covenant, they will enjoy the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant. So, if Adam would have obeyed the covenant of works, he would have enjoyed staying in the eternal state or staying in this relationship in the garden, and so you can see why we would say there's kind of a reissuing or giving another example of this covenant of works.

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Of course, no one could ever fully obey the Mosaic law and live. That's not possible, but it's being used as that example on a lower level, meaning that if you obey this of the

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Mosaic law and the sacrificial systems, then you can remain underneath the blessings of God in Canaan.

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So, there's a picture back. There's also a picture going forward. A couple of things to add with respect to the

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Mosaic covenant, and I hope these will all make sense. So, Moses is not the federal head of the

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Mosaic covenant the way that Abraham is of the Abrahamic covenant or the way that David is of the

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Davidic. Or the way that Adam was of the covenant of works or the way that Jesus will be of the new covenant. Really, the federal covenant head of the

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Mosaic covenant ends up being the Davidic kings because Moses is a mediator who gives the law, and we will get to this in a minute how the king of Israel ends up becoming responsible for not only seeing to it that the people would keep the law and that the worship of God would be pure, but he will represent the nation in obeying or not the

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Mosaic covenant and the Mosaic law in the place of the people. So, that's an important observation, I think. But the other thing is with respect to the

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Mosaic law itself, the law contains two categories of laws.

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One is the moral law of God that transcends any particular context or setting. The moral law of God is always what he says is right is always right.

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What he says is wrong is always wrong. Then there are also positive commands, positive laws that God gives in addition to the moral law, which we would call the ceremonial and the civil aspects of the

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Mosaic law that are contextually situated and are specific to the nation of Israel.

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So, those are a couple of observations too that I think do matter when it comes to even the new covenant and how we're going to think about the law of God and what that looks like moving forward.

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Yeah, that's good. So, as we get ready to move in to the Davidic covenant, you do have the promises of the

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Davidic covenant or a king given in the original promises to Abraham later on through Judah.

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We're told at Genesis 49 that through the line of Judah, there'll be one who holds the scepter eternally, who will forever hold the throne.

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And so, there is this anticipation that one day there will be kings. And once we finally get to the point where they are going to inaugurate a king, of course, they're impatient.

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They want to choose the king. Israel does. God lets them do that. And then eventually God brings forth his man, which is

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David. And in all of these, which we're going to get to here in a minute, all of these there's a foreshadow of what's to come that become these types and shadows.

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But as David, really throughout his entire life, he begins to demonstrate the victorious king.

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He begins to demonstrate the suffering servant and all of these different areas of his life in his

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Psalms. But towards the end of it, there's a new covenant that's made with him. And that covenant is in relationship to the king that sits on the throne.

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So, we have a further clarification of this king that was promised to Abraham, clarified to Judah, and then we see

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David as a picture of Christ or of the one who is going to come. And the promises that are made is that there's a king that will come and the king sits on David's throne and perfectly obeys the

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Mosaic law, will earn for the people, all the people, to be a part of the throne eternally.

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So, the people can't earn it by obeying the Mosaic law. Obviously, they have failed here. And so,

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God's going to bless the nation of those who are in the kingdom, and they will be a part of this kingdom forever because they are part of the

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Davidic covenant. And then, of course, in this covenant, he gives some promises of blessings and he gives curses.

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So, if the king does not obey, the nation will then be thrown into captivity and cursed.

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And so, you have the phrase, where the king goes, so does the people. And this ends up becoming this back and forth of you're watching a king that kind of does well, but he's not perfect.

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He doesn't perfectly obey the law and then those who are horrible. And eventually, of course, we know who becomes the perfect king, which is

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Christ, the foreshadowing of that. So, all of this, as the book has kind of been saying, is pushing us along and kind of carving the road and getting us ready for the new covenant.

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Sometimes when people read their Bibles, they don't really understand. And I know that in my own congregation, I'm always trying to help people understand that it wasn't like the old covenant failed and now we need the new covenant, but the old covenant was the preparation for the new covenant.

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You can't understand that your need of what God's going to provide for you in Christ until there's this establishment and these promises that are made.

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So, it's really this beautiful pathway that gets us ready for the newness of this new covenant, because in the old covenant, it is based upon our own efforts, it is based upon our own obedience, and then not salvation, but as far as how

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God's going to work with the nations, and then when you get to the new covenant, which we'll get to in our next session, you'll kind of see how all of these types and shadows are being fulfilled in the new covenant.

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Justin, are you there? I don't know if you had something you wanted to add to that. Justin Perdue Yeah, I'm here, brother. I'm still trying to work behind the scenes here to get back into the webinar.

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So, I'm a little distracted, but I have a couple of comments on the Davidic covenant. Obviously, God makes a covenant with David that one of his sons will sit on the throne forever as long as he keeps the law.

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And as I alluded to earlier, we would understand that the king is responsible for the pure and right worship of God.

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If you read the history books, like 2 Samuel, but then especially as you read 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2

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Chronicles, that becomes very clear that the king is responsible for the worship of God and how that's conducted.

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So, even though he's not a priest, he has a role that is somewhat unique. And then, in addition, as John has already said, as I've overheard in any way, that the king would represent the nation in terms of his own keeping of the law or no.

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So, what we've seen as we've made our way through the Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic covenant, we've seen these farther steps continue to unfold in terms of how

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God is going to accomplish redemption in the covenant of grace that will be accomplished in Christ. And John, is it cool if we pivot to that maybe and just kind of talk typology high level real quick, and then maybe go forward?

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Great. So, with respect to Abraham, we know that it will be someone from Abraham's line.

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There is the promised seed, singular, like if we think about Galatians chapter three, there is the seed of Abraham through whom the nations will be blessed and through whom the nations will be saved, and we know that that's

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Christ. The way that Abraham serves as a pattern for faith is not insignificant either in that God unconditionally keeps all these promises that he makes to Abraham in terms of the fulfillment of the people, the kings, and the land.

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That points to how the new covenant will be unconditional and how the benefits of the new covenant are applied to the people who comprise it by faith.

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So, those things in terms of types, shadows, and patterns are significant. I can move on to Moses, but before I do,

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John, do you have anything else just in thinking about Abraham typologically that you'd want to say? Yeah, you may have already mentioned it, but I think one of the helpful ones is that even in Hebrews, they mentioned they're looking for a greater land.

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They understood Canaan wasn't the final resting place. So, you hear the writer of Hebrews saying, man, they were looking past Canaan to a heavenly land.

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So, you begin to see how the nation of Israel, God's plan was in Israel. Well, hold on.

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One other thing. So, one other thing with Abraham, circumcision. So, you have a people who are marked off, who are separated, and this is where I would agree with the

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Presbyterians, our Pato brothers, is that baptism is a form in which

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God marks his people off. Baptism becomes the sign by which we are marked off by the new covenant.

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All those who are part of the new covenant are marked off by that sign. Not just males, but all of those who are in the new covenant.

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And so, you would even see that foreshadowing through circumcision being carried out in baptism.

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Just a brief word on that too. I think that Galatians chapter three, Colossians chapter two, and other places that I might go to in the

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New Testament, those two may be pointedly. Help us understand too that where the people of God were marked off in the old covenant by circumcision, they are marked off effectively in the new covenant by the new birth, which then is accompanied by the sign that would go with that reality, aka baptism.

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So, that from a credo -baptistic perspective is how we would understand it, that regeneration, the circumcision of the heart now is what marks off the people of God, and they are given the sign of baptism to be that physical sign and symbol of what has happened internally and spiritually for them.

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It's a symbol and a sign of our union with Christ and being sealed with the Spirit, all those things. We could talk about that some other time, but no, that's good,

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John. That's important. They're not one -to -one, right? Circumcision and baptism are not one -to -one.

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It's not just this flat replacement or whatever, which is sometimes the charge that's levied, but it's not at all.

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It's a fulfillment situation. Yeah, just like Canaan is not a one -for -one for heaven, heaven is not a section of the world.

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It's not a land, right? So, yeah, a lot of the types of shadows are definitely not even one -for -one.

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That's why it's a shadow. It's somewhat symbolizing what's going to happen, but it's not the full substance.

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Great. Yeah, I mean, so with Moses, there's a lot of typology going on with the Mosaic Covenant too. Aside from just even

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Moses being a prophet and a prophet like him would be raised up, a Deuteronomy 1518 kind of reality, that's awesome too.

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But in particular, with respect to the Mosaic Covenant, two things that I'd want to highlight that are massively significant are in the

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Mosaic Covenant, we have the establishment of the priesthood, and we know that that is a pointer to the great high priest who would come.

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This is like the book of Hebrews straight up, like think chapter seven through basically like 10, where Jesus is a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

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He has assumed that role through the power and the virtue of having an indestructible life.

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All the other priests died, so they couldn't continue in their post, but Jesus lives forever and therefore is able to save the other most, all those who draw near to God through him because he always lives to make intercession for them.

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All these other priests, they were daily, like this is Hebrews 10, they're daily at their work, always making sacrifices for sins, but Jesus made a sacrifice once and for all, and then he sat down at the right hand of God, and he's perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

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It's that stuff that is so great, and I can't wait to preach Hebrews. Then in addition to that, you have, and I've already kind of alluded to this, you have the sacrificial system too that points the people to a number of realities that the shedding of blood, the shedding of the blood in particular of a perfect, innocent, sinless one in their place is what is required to atone for sin, and it forces them to look outside themselves to a perfect sacrifice that they might be atoned for.

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God is teaching them what it will require for their sins and transgressions to be forgiven, and so we know that Christ, not only is he the

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Passover lamb, but he is the sacrificial lamb, as it were, who comes and fulfills the sacrificial system through which, like Hebrews 9, if the blood of bulls and goats, they could make people ceremonially clean, but they never could take away sins while the blood of Christ does take away transgressions.

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So, these are massive things. The temple becomes a very big symbol. There's another one. Beautiful. Yeah.

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The tabernacle and then the temple. Yeah. Right. So, which Christ often even points to himself, mentioning tearing down the temple, building up in three days.

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He is the true Israel. He is the true sacrifice. He is the final temple. All of it is fulfilled in him.

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So, all of these shadows are pointing to the substance. Yeah, and of course, we have the tabernacle and the

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Mosaic covenant, and the temple comes under Solomon and the Davidic, where you actually have all of these things realized, where you have

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God's people in God's nation, under God's law, and you have the presence of God with the people in his house.

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You have all of these really awesome fulfillments that occur, and there's a reason why it's like, man, is

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Solomon the Christ? But he's not, and then there's one coming who is.

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So, I guess I can move us on to the Davidic covenant. We've kind of already talked about the types there. Obviously, the greater

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David is coming. David's son, I mean, this is a Psalm 110 reality. The Lord said to my

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Lord stuff, and David's son, yet David's Lord, that kind of reality, where he would come, he would represent the nation, and he would, like you already said,

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John, the temple piece is significant. Solomon built God a house, but Jesus would literally fulfill the temple. He would tabernacle amongst us,

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John chapter one, all of those things. They're huge, and all of the language to me, brother, in the prophets is so beautiful, especially in Isaiah and Jeremiah, where you get the root of Jesse, the righteous branch that I will raise up from Jesse, meaning

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Jesse being David's father, right? I mean, so this is all talking about Christ and how he will accomplish righteousness and administer justice in the land.

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He will be called the Lord is our righteousness. I mean, it's unbelievable, the language of the prophets with respect to Jesus being a son of David and being the righteous branch from Jesse and David's line that would be raised up.

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Anyway, it's wonderful. Cool. All right. Well, we got some questions.

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I don't know if you have that open, Justin, so you can see them, but we definitely got some questions here. If you guys are interested.

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Bro, I'm zooming. I'm zooming again. Like I'm, I'm here completely. You're here. All right. So if you are interested in answering your question, just throw your hand up.

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There's a, there's a way to do that. That'll let us know if you want to come in and maybe even dialogue with us a little bit about your question.

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So we have one here from Aaron. If you're interested in further answering or asking this question after I read it, just raise your hand and we'll enable you to chat.

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So Aaron asks us, are there any types given in Abraham, in the Abrahamic covenant still awaiting fulfillment?

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I think he's maybe referencing a dispensational perspective on that with the land promises. Am I maybe reading that Justin correctly?

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Let me, uh, let me know. I mean, that's not exactly how, let Aaron talk, let him ask his question.

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What do you mean by that brother? Yeah, John, you picked up on the land and that's what I had in mind. Could the land promise have a typological view towards the new heaven and earth as well?

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And I'm not taking it from a dispensational standpoint, about the thousand year reign.

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No, beyond that. I mean, beyond that is still. Okay. Yeah.

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Um, go ahead, Justin. No, I mean, I was just gonna say, I think that as we are still in this, you know, to use the language that many use, we're in the already, but not yet where the new covenant has come and Jesus has ushered in the era of the new covenant.

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The covenant has been established and yet we await the consummation of all things. Um, we await namely our bodily resurrection unto an incorruptible and imperishable state where we will live with God forever.

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I mean, the heaven will literally come down, you know, I mean, where it will be a new heavens and a new earth and, you know, we will be with God.

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We'll feast with the Lord, the marriage supper, the lamb, all these wonderful things we see in revelation. So on the one hand, I would want to say that if we're talking about Canaan being a type of the new heaven and the new earth, then sure, we're still waiting for that.

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Uh, but in terms of the Abrahamic covenant itself, in terms of the promises that God made to Abraham, we would understand that the

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Abrahamic covenant proper has been fulfilled completely and what it points to, you know, in terms of like the final consummative redemption and restoration of all things, yes, we still wait for that.

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Though it is already secure and it's as good as done because of what Christ has accomplished and God will see it through.

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That's, that's sort of my best shot there. John, thoughts? Yeah. Aaron, is that helpful? Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful.

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Awesome. Awesome. So I had another one on the Abrahamic covenant. That's a great, great question. I had another one on the

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Abrahamic covenant. You guys mentioned circumcision. Yeah, you guys mentioned circumcision as a sign.

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And I don't know if you mentioned seal, but, um, I get that part, but in the book, it seemed like he was saying that that is part of the obedience that, um,

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Abraham's descendants had to perform. And that made that a conditional covenant. Um, as the first time

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I came across something like that. So, uh, would it be a sign or a condition or how can we look at it?

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Yeah, I think this goes back to what I had mentioned earlier is that there is a, there is an unconditional nature to the, there is an unconditional nature to the covenant, to the nation, but to the individual, um, that could, you could be removed from the covenant, for instance, not, um, performing the sign of circumcision, obviously it says, take them out and kill them or cast them out of the, of the camp and then not holding to the

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Mosaic law would also eventually, uh, depending on what it is that you didn't do, it could get you removed from the covenant, but the covenant promises of the fulfillment to the, to the nation was unconditional, but yes, there were individual.

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So this is what's so different about the new covenant versus the old. And this is why we'd say Abrahamic is part of the old is that yes, there is an, there's a nationwide to Abraham and there's a nationwide, uh, unconditional promise, but there are conditions by which the people inside the covenant must hold to, otherwise they are not going to remain in the covenant.

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Yeah. He's picking up, Sam is, and we would agree with him. He's picking up the language of Genesis chapter 17 in verse 14 in particular.

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Um, but I'm going to read verse 11 first and then verse 14 of Genesis chapter 17, so Genesis 17, 11, you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.

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But then verse 14 reads this way, any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people.

31:10

He has broken my covenant. So yeah, we, we would understand that circumcision is absolutely a sign of the

31:17

Abrahamic covenant, but that the Abrahamic covenant itself, it's not the covenant of grace.

31:24

So it, the Abrahamic covenant is a conditional covenant that God makes with, you know, through Abraham, with individuals that descend from Abraham.

31:35

And at the same time, it is an unconditional covenant that he makes to accomplish all of these things that he promises to Abraham and the nation high level.

31:43

So that's what John is saying is that the promise is unconditional to the nation in that God will give

31:49

Abraham a people, he will give them kings that come from their, from them and he will give them land, but there will be individuals who will be cut off from it.

31:57

Whereas we would then understand that the covenant of grace that is established and fulfilled and accomplished through Christ in the new covenant is completely unconditional and is received by faith.

32:09

And anybody who has been marked off by the new birth as a part of that new covenant and given the sign of baptism will never be cut off.

32:18

This is part of what makes the new covenant new and better is it is, it is like the

32:24

Abrahamic covenant in some ways, but it is different than in other ways. This is where we would differ from our Presbyterian brothers and sisters, because they would equate, most of them anyway, would say that the

32:35

Abrahamic covenant is the covenant of grace. And they would basically say that the new covenant is like the

32:41

Abrahamic, you know, and where we're going to say, yeah, it is, but it's also quite different. And of course they're going to say it's different as well, but I would maybe want to speak into that situation and say, okay, well, brother or sister, explain to me exactly how it's different.

32:55

Whereas I think in our view, it's quite clear how there's a lot of continuity and there's a lot of similarity, yet there is a difference.

33:01

So when we hear that Jesus is the guarantor and mediator of a better covenant, a newer one, a new one, it's like, okay, yeah, we get that.

33:09

Wow. That's helpful, Justin. Just a thought hit me in addition to that is like, when you come to the new covenant, there's no talk of, if you don't get baptized, you've broken the covenant, not

33:20

I'm saying that it's off, but yeah. And again, brother, I would understand that to be fundamentally true because it is the new birth that marks people off.

33:33

And then the sign is just given, you know, as a sign and a symbol of that reality and baptism means something.

33:41

I mean, it is a testimony from God to us of what God has done. You know, we have been baptized into Christ and into his life, death, and resurrection, you know, we've been raised in him to walk in newness of life.

33:52

We have been united to Jesus in every way and we have been sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. We've been cleansed by the waters of, you know, baptism.

33:59

It's an Ezekiel 36 kind of thing with, you know, I'll sprinkle clean water on you and I'll put my spirit within you.

34:05

I mean, there's all kinds of things we can talk about. Um, but yeah, I mean, amen. Yeah. My mind is spinning now, so I'm going to stop asking.

34:14

No, that's good. Type them up. Keep. Yeah, absolutely brother. Keep typing them up. All right.

34:20

Um, so we have Luke here. I don't know if Luke wants to jump on here and dialogue with us. Luke's question is there's, how would you, there's both

34:27

Luke's sorry. Uh, Lindbergh he's guys, he's done it again.

34:32

I apologize for him. Luke knows there's only, well, I guess there's two looks. I'm going to read the first one part.

34:37

I just realized that two looks wrote questions. I apologize. All right, here we go. Luke Lindbergh, not the original

34:44

Luke. Apparently. How would you describe the differences between the explanation of the old covenants between Presbyterians and Baptist?

34:53

Um, I, uh, I think we did that just a little bit now, but we could do that more.

35:00

Um, and we'll answer this. Yeah. And we'll answer this Luke. And if you have some followup, uh, feel free to raise your hand and what we'll bring in.

35:08

Um, well, the, the, the differences between men, um,

35:15

I'm trying to figure out if I'll do this with, I'll happily jump in. Why don't you, I'm afraid if I get going, it's going to take long.

35:21

So let's see if we can do this within like five to 10 minutes at most. I'm going to do that. I'm just going to go as bullet points.

35:27

So we've already discussed it. All right. So guys, the big thing we got to start with is Abraham in terms of the differences between us as 1689

35:35

Federalists and, and our Presbyterian, um, brothers and sisters. And I mean, this would be true of other

35:42

Pato -Baptistic Reformed believers, not just capital P Presbyterians. But, um, we would understand again, that the

35:49

Abrahamic covenant is not the covenant of grace. The Presbyterian understanding would be that there is one thing going on with Abraham and it is an unconditional promise, uh, which is why they sort of equate the

36:02

Abrahamic and the new covenant, that it's a new covenant. It's a, it's an unconditional promise received by faith grounded in the grace of God.

36:10

And we would say, yeah, the, the unconditional promise of the covenant of grace to the elect is absolutely there in what

36:17

God is doing with Abraham. But the covenant that he makes is a conditional covenant with individuals.

36:24

It is unconditional to the nation. And that Abrahamic covenant pertains to temporal, physical realities that will be fulfilled.

36:34

And the covenant of grace deals with eternal spiritual realities. Um, so there's a difference there in how we understand

36:40

Abraham and what the Lord is doing. The, another big difference too, we've alluded to this already is how we would describe the

36:47

Mosaic covenant. Presbyterians, because of how they understand the covenant of grace wholesale, often reason themselves into a corner where they have to say that the

36:57

Mosaic covenant is also the covenant of, it's all under the covenant of grace. Um, and so, because anything that's coming after Abraham, right, that has anything to do with Abraham is, is a piece of the covenant of grace.

37:10

And so then they have to really struggle to explain how this covenant that to us, again, seems quite clear, it's a covenant of works with gracious provision is somehow actually the covenant of grace.

37:22

And that's why Presbyterians are often very uncomfortable with the republication or reissuing language of a covenant of works through Moses.

37:30

Though for us and our understanding, we would have no issue with that because it seems quite clear that's what it is. Because the covenant of grace has been promised and revealed beginning in Genesis 3 .15.

37:39

It's on, it's being unfolded and revealed through farther steps through Abraham and the like. But the covenant of grace itself doesn't come until Christ.

37:47

And so for us, we can just say, look, yeah, the Mosaic covenant is a covenant of works with gracious provision, though it is not the covenant of works proper that God made with Adam.

37:57

Those are two big differences that I can think of, how we understand Abraham, and then how we would even describe the

38:02

Mosaic covenant, and obviously that the Abrahamic piece is going to have a big, a lot of implications with respect to how we administer baptism.

38:10

Because we, and this is, can I just say this, John? I know I'm talking a lot, but this matters for us to understand.

38:16

We, how we understand covenant theology, in particular, how we understand the Abrahamic covenant determines how we administer baptism in large part.

38:26

Well, and let me, let me, maybe finer point, how we understand the Abrahamic covenant and how we understand the new covenant and how those two relate, it determines how we administer baptism.

38:38

So it's not for us, it's not a situation where we're like, well, we're credo Baptist, so let's read that back onto the old

38:43

Testament and make it work. No, it's because of these undergirding theological realities that then determines how we administer baptism.

38:52

Whereas I would humbly, but charitably say that there are times that our pedo -Baptistic brothers and sisters, it seems that their practice of administration of baptism drives their covenant theology in a way that, that sometimes causes them, like I said, to sort of paint themselves in a corner.

39:10

And that's a, that's a humble critique. I love my Presbyterian and Reformed brothers and sisters.

39:16

I do, but I sometimes have found that interesting in conversation. This is probably the most pointed we've been in five years of Theocast on our position.

39:28

Yeah. And so this is one of those things where, I mean, this is guys that want to know. That's right.

39:34

It's safe space. Yeah. This is not going to be broadcast to the masses. No, no, not today.

39:40

Anyways, not now. This is one of those, like, don't ask, don't tell. Um, sort of things like you guys, if you've seen

39:48

Fight Club, rule number one of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club. So rule number one of this is we don't, we don't talk about John and Justin's views on some of this.

39:58

Well, and I'll, I'll, I'll add to what Justin has to say. And before I do, I, I think it's important to realize that covenant theology there,

40:08

I mean, we're, we're, we're on the same team here. So when we're talking about our Presbyterian brothers and we're talking about our

40:13

Baptist brothers. There's so much overlap. We are on the same team because we hold the same structure.

40:20

We see the value of a redemptive, historic understanding, biblical theology, covenant drives, um, the

40:30

Bible. And so I want to say, man, I want my Presbyterian brothers to keep pressing hard because we're liberating people out of the bondage of pietism and dispensationalism.

40:41

Um, now that's a great question and it's, I knew this one was coming. And a lot of what's happening with the old covenant is, um, when, when you understand the purpose and the structure of the old covenant, specifically what's given to Abraham, we understand that it is not inaugurating.

41:05

It's not starting the covenant of grace. So when you inaugurate and ratify something, um, it, you know, it, you have to ask like, like, is the substance of the thing there or is it being, is it as a shadow or promise of it?

41:22

So our understanding is that the promise comes to Adam and Eve in the garden.

41:28

It's then further clarified, but not started. So the new covenant, which we believe is the covenant of grace, is not started because it's not, you don't have this unconditional promise being made that can only be fulfilled by grace.

41:45

We do not see the Abrahamic as being fully a gracious covenant because there are requirements.

41:52

And if you disobey those requirements, you will be booted out. You're booted. The new covenant is conditional, but it's not on our side.

42:01

It's unconditional to us, right? There aren't conditions that we must meet. And so this is where we would say, okay, the, the, you have the promise in Genesis three.

42:11

You have it further clarified through all three covenants, which is Abraham, Mosaic, and David.

42:18

Then when you get to the new covenant, it is new because it is entirely new in that it's unconditional.

42:25

All members that are in this are marked off by a new birth. This is Ezekiel and Jeremiah.

42:33

And everyone who's a part of this covenant is actually has this new status about him, which is, you know,

42:41

Jesus says the new birth of Nicodemus. Nicodemus, his mind is being blown. And he says to him, this is, shouldn't be new to you.

42:47

If you know Ezekiel and Jeremiah, this isn't going to be new to you. Well, John, really quick. I mean, in that conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus, this is,

42:54

I don't think too far off track. He makes two references to the prophets. I mean, in that he says, unless one is born of water and the spirit, you can't enter the kingdom of heaven.

43:04

Well, what's he talking about? He's talking about Ezekiel 36. I will sprinkle clean water on you, right? And I will put my spirit within you.

43:11

And it is the new covenant passage of Ezekiel 36 that he's referencing there.

43:17

And then when he talks about the wind in verse eight of John three, the wind blows where it wishes and all this stuff.

43:22

And he's talking about how that's how the spirit works. I mean, that's Ezekiel 37 in the Valley of Dry Bones, you know, where God brings life and causes dead bones to live.

43:31

So these things are not unrelated. So we would say the old covenant is

43:38

Abraham, Moses, and David. Presbyterians would not say that.

43:45

And we would say that the new covenant is promised and then you have the promise of it in Ezekiel and Jeremiah.

43:54

So you have the full inauguration of it, and then you have the ratification of it of Christ on the cross, right?

44:01

So they would say the inauguration or the beginning of the covenant of grace begins with Abraham.

44:10

And our problem with that is that the new covenant language doesn't match with the

44:17

Abrahamic covenant language. They would see the Proto -Ewangelion in Genesis 3 .15,

44:24

but then they would say that the covenant of grace, like you said, John, the covenant of grace itself, it formally begins with Abraham.

44:31

Where we would say no, it does not. They would even say the sign and seal of it's being sended there. And we're saying the sign and seal can't be there because you don't have the inauguration and ratification of it.

44:42

You don't have the beginning and the payment for it yet. That comes later. And the other thing, the other, sorry,

44:51

John. No, I was going to say, the reason I'm mentioning that is that to be clear, we understand the old covenant to be people to be saved under the old covenant because their argument against us would be, or this position would be, well, then no one is saved under the old covenant or in the

45:11

Old Testament because the covenant of grace isn't there. And just as Christ's mediating work reaches back to save Adam, we believe that Adam was saved by faith through the promise before Abraham and the gap between Adam and Abraham, everyone is saved because of Christ.

45:29

And so we believe that they believed in the promise to come and that's what saved them and when Christ died on the cross, his blood, you know, it split time and went both directions.

45:40

Well, I mean, that we believing that the promise of the covenant of grace exists throughout the Old Testament, we believe that saints have always been saved by believing the promise.

45:51

I mean, Paul even uses the language of promise all throughout his letter to the Galatians, you know,

45:56

I mean, even with respect to Abraham. And so that's all we are saying is that the promise exists and Abraham and all the saints in the

46:05

Old Testament were saved through believing the promises of God realized through Messiah. And I mean,

46:10

Jesus will even say, Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it and was glad, you know, in John chapter eight.

46:16

Well, what is that? I mean, it's faith. It's the faith that Abraham had in the promises of God realized through the

46:22

Christ, you know, we realized that the gospel was preached to Abraham. This is Galatians chapter three, referencing

46:27

Genesis 12. So the good news of the seed who would come was preached to Abraham and he believed that.

46:33

And so we do believe that the merits of Christ are applied to the saints of the old covenant era, even though Christ had not yet arrived to do that work, but his merits are applied to them just as they are applied to us.

46:49

One other difference that I would highlight in terms of how we would speak of covenant theology and the covenant of grace in particular, that would differ from our

46:58

Presbyterian or capital R Reformed brethren would be they will often use the language of the covenant of grace being one covenant under two administrations, meaning so one covenant of grace, two administrations, meaning old and new.

47:13

Whereas what we would say is no, that we don't agree with that because we don't think that the old and the new covenant are the same substance.

47:23

We think there's actually a distinction in substance between the old and new covenant, and so we would understand, again, that promise of the covenant of grace is there throughout the old covenant, though the covenant of grace proper is not established until Christ comes.

47:36

So that is a distinction as well between how we would articulate things. This is not too far into the whole pedo -covenant.

47:45

When you say administration, you mean like two governing peoples, right?

47:51

You have the Old Testament governing administration people, and then the church governing.

47:57

I know when I first heard that, I was like, what do you mean by that? You're right in terms of the people, but how it is even applied to people and how people become a part of it in one sense too.

48:12

In the Old Testament, the administration would have been circumcision, and in the New Testament, it would be baptism.

48:22

In two different eras, epics of redemptive history is also signified there in saying different administrations.

48:28

There was the Old Covenant epic, and now there's the New Covenant epic, and there's tons of consistency, but there is a transition from old to new, but it's all the same covenant of grace, which, again, we believe the promise is there, just not the covenant itself.

48:45

I think we've said enough about that probably. Yeah, I'm sure we may end up saying more. We have one question left, unless you guys want to throw a follow -up question to anything we've said.

48:55

This one comes from TheOriginalLuke, apparently. Justin keeps apologizing for me.

49:01

I don't know why he's doing that. I'm seeing some of the framework for dispensationalist thinking here, where the old dispensations failed, so God came up with new ways, but this paints a more consistent picture of God's redemption from beginning to end.

49:18

Are they confusing dispensations for covenants in a way, but obscured?

49:25

I think I understand what he's saying. John, you grew up in dispensational theology, so why don't you take a stab at this first, and then

49:34

I'll just come in and say punchy things. Yeah, look, there is overlap between dispensationalist and covenant theology because we are using the same book.

49:49

They believe in what they call the biblical covenants, and they think that would be

49:55

Abraham, Mosaic, Davidic, and New. Those would be the only covenants. They would not see covenant of works, covenant of grace.

50:04

You're going to hear them use that language, and it depends on what brand of dispensationalism you talk about.

50:12

Technically, within covenant theology, you kind of have two. You have pedo and credo.

50:20

In dispensational theology, there's four different kinds of brands. If you're talking about the historic, original, like Ryrie, going back farther, then they would see the old covenant as basically a covenant of works, that you obey the

50:39

Mosaic law to earn salvation. Further, earlier or later, dispensationalists would definitely deny that, which is good, and they should.

50:48

The way to understand it is God's redemptive plan to establishing his kingdom was through Israel.

50:58

Israel is kind of God's initial first plan. Of course,

51:04

Israel fails, and so there's this period where God's going to push pause on Israel and the church comes in, so the

51:12

Old Testament kind of becomes God's establishment of the people of Israel. He's going to bring forth the kingdom in it.

51:20

They completely fail, so God pauses with Israel. He's going to pick them back up later, and then the church is established.

51:28

We would not see that at all. We would see, as I said earlier, and the book says it,

51:34

I think pretty helpful. It says here, well, actually chapter nine, page 135, the purpose of the old covenant was to produce the new covenant.

51:42

It's not a failure. It's not a point B. It's not, well, the old one didn't work, so now we need a new one.

51:49

No, it is the old one sets the way, or we could say the first one sets the way for the second one.

51:56

So, the old original covenant was all designed as preparation for the final eternal covenant that doesn't go away, which is the new covenant.

52:06

Dispensationalists do understand it more of kind of like a failure response. God's initial plan failed.

52:12

Now he has a second plan, but he's going to pick his first plan back up when he's done with the second one in some ways.

52:19

Justin Perdue Yeah, and to that point, obviously I know there are different brands of dispensationalism.

52:25

I'm not as steeped in it as John is. That's why I wanted him to start. I mean, I think if you go back to the original stuff and the extreme views in a dispensational schema,

52:34

I mean, you even have dual covenantalism, like where there are two paths to salvation. There's a way that Israel is saved, and then there's a way that others are saved, which obviously is...

52:42

I mean, even, thank goodness, most dispensationalists would reject that kind of theology at this point, and so that's good.

52:52

But then I think what John was illustrating a minute ago is helpful and important in that dispensationalists talk as though Israel is the point.

53:00

Israel is plan A, yeah, but Israel is the point of Scripture in terms of God's salvific work, and the church is sort of this insertion.

53:09

It's this parenthesis, and then God is going to pick back up with what He always really wanted and intended to do, which is to save Israel, and we would say, yeah, that's kind of completely backwards in that God always, like to John's point, there's always

53:23

God's one plan. It's plan A. There's no plan B. This is not a mop -up operation, but God always intended to accomplish

53:31

His plan of redemption just this way, where He would promise it, and He would reveal it, and He would unfold it, and there would be all of these types and these shadows, and it would make very clear who and how, and all of this would come to make salvation a reality for the people of God, and then it's a beautiful crescendo that ushers us right to the point where Christ comes on the scene.

53:55

I mean, in one sense, you have 400 years of silence, and then the angel Gabriel appears to Mary, which is just epic.

54:01

So I think that's a huge difference, and as I understand dispensational thinking, there's tons of discontinuity between the different dispensations, and so certainly there's tons of discontinuity between the

54:13

Old and the New Covenant, which we're going to say, yeah, the New Covenant is new, but I hope –

54:18

I mean, to Luke, you even acknowledged this in your question – I hope it's very clear how we are believing and understanding and even talking about this as all a part of a whole, and there is a ton of continuity, and the plan of God beautifully unfolds from the

54:33

Old into the New, but the point of the Old Covenant is the New Covenant, and it always has been, and so I think there's very little that we would have in common with our dispensational brothers and sisters, other than John like saying, we're using the same

54:48

Bible. They'll acknowledge some of the same covenants, but they would understand them in completely different ways than we would, so I want to be charitable about that, too.

54:59

Yeah, and I have a lot of good friends that are dispensationalists, and we have ongoing dialogues, and I often ask them questions like, hey,

55:08

I want to represent you correctly, and they really do have what I would say three pillars that they base their theology on, which

55:20

I always think is funny because they accuse us of putting stuff on the text, and yet we have things which we structure the text on as well, and I would say, no, we pull these other texts.

55:28

I think just like you're trying to, there's the glory of God, the church and Israel are distinct, they're separate, and that's a very important understanding of it, and then a grammatical historic understanding of scripture is kind of the framework why everything is unfolding, so ultimately,

55:52

God's glory is the point of the Bible. The church is not Israel, and so the promises that are given to Israel, they take them literally, like when it says that the land of Canaan will be forever, they take that as being literally that's never going to go away, and so we're not going to get into all that, and I would say, and this is a great question that came to us,

56:19

I would say absolutely, we believe in a historical grammatical understanding of scripture, and what they mean by that, if you don't know what dispensationalism means by that, is that they look at the text in its original history, in the grammar, and derive their conclusion from that.

56:37

I don't disagree, but I think you have to look at, there's a greater history and a greater context than just the immediate context that you're in, because what's the overarching context?

56:51

There's a problem, I mean, I feel very strongly about this, and John, I know you agree, there's a serious problem if we are going to aim to understand any passage in the

57:02

Old Testament and ignore God's revelation in the new, in seeking to understand the old, so we've said this many times, that the best interpreter of the

57:15

Old Testament is the Holy Spirit speaking to us in the New Testament, and we need to use the revelation of God through Christ, and the evangelists as they record

57:26

Christ in the Gospels, and then through the apostles, if we're going to rightly understand the Old Testament.

57:32

So the way the apostles understand the Old Testament is how we want to understand the Old Testament, and so, of course, we want to concern ourselves with the original historical context and the original authorial intent, we're right there with them, and at the same time, to John's point, there is the entire canon of scripture, there's the redemptive historical framework that we want to use, and we want to understand the

57:51

Old Testament the way the apostles did, and the way that Christ did, where he understood that it was about him, and so we would read the

57:59

Old Testament in light of all of that, and we would say that you are irresponsible if you're not doing that, you're not going to come to appropriate conclusions about the

58:10

Old Testament and what it's really saying and communicating, in terms of its ultimate point. Yeah.

58:16

Right. Yeah, I think what got me here, what first snagged me, just so you kind of understand,

58:23

I think maybe why this is important, is that when I realized Jesus was the point, so this was before I was a covenantalist, when

58:30

I realized Jesus was the point of the Old Testament, which our Lutheran brothers agree with, you know, it's like all of scripture, all the

58:37

Old Testament points them to Jesus. They have a very Christocentric hermeneutic, yeah. Yeah, so a lot of, and even reading

58:45

Luther is kind of what got me this direction, is when I began to realize that the Old Testament is not moral stories that are there to help govern us and help us to do better at pleasing

58:57

God, but the Old Testament is a narrative unfolding the gospel, making a way for the gospel, explaining the power and the necessity of the gospel, and then

59:08

I learned biblical theology, which is the unfolding of the story of redemption and how the whole story is being unfolded, and it's unfolding redemption.

59:17

So it wasn't just the story of the Old Testament is about Jesus, but it's about Jesus' redemption. And then it was easy kind of for me to fall into covenant theology and abandoned dispensationalism, because dispensationalism is just, they really struggle with the

59:29

Old Testament. I mean, look, everybody has great respect for John MacArthur, but in his preaching book, he basically tells you the

59:35

Old Testament is for illustrations. We live in the New Testament era, therefore I only majorly preach.

59:41

I mean, he's only preached a handful of times out of the Old Testament. If you go back and look at his log of sermons, he only preached at the

59:47

New Testament because he thinks we're a New Testament church, we don't need the Old Testament. So we've got a couple more questions here.

59:52

I think we should grab them. So one here from Aaron, he says, considering that the

59:58

Ten Commandments were a part of the Old Covenant, can we legitimately use the Ten Commandments in evangelism today?

01:00:05

I think he's way of the master a little bit there. What do you think, Justin? Justin Perdue Yeah.

01:00:13

So, I mean, in particular, I mean, I'm just going to talk about the Ten Commandments and their legitimacy for a minute.

01:00:19

So as I said earlier, the Mosaic law contains in it two big categories, and then one of those two big categories is also broken into two sections.

01:00:32

So there is the moral law of God that transcends any historical context or setting.

01:00:38

It always holds. It is a revelation of God's character, but it is just a transcendent truth and reality that is his moral law.

01:00:47

That moral law is summarized in the Ten Commandments. The other subset of the

01:00:53

Mosaic law is what we would call positive laws that in and of themselves, these things are not immoral or moral until God attaches significance to them.

01:01:03

And those, the two subsets underneath the positive laws are the civil and the ceremonial law that God gives to the nation of Israel.

01:01:12

And so the ceremonial law, I trust is pretty clear, that would include not only like things pertaining to worship and feasts and days and sacrifices and food and all that, it would include all that, but then you'll have the civil law, which is sometimes referred to as like the judicial law, which has to do with their geopolitical reality and the theocracy that Israel was.

01:01:32

So we would understand that the positive laws, because they were uniquely situated historically in that unique era of redemptive history, we would understand that those are no longer are applicable in the new covenant era because we're in a different era of redemptive history.

01:01:48

Though we would understand that the moral law is transcendent and does not depend upon context.

01:01:54

And so therefore the moral law of God is still applicable. In the new covenant era. And in particular, as we think about the use of God's law, this is, we can't have this conversation about saying this, and this is where I think you get to the evangelism piece.

01:02:07

The three uses of God's law historically, at least as I understand reformed people have articulated.

01:02:13

Some people reverse the orders here and Lutherans will say it different, but the way that I've always heard it in the reformed world, first use of the law is the mirror, you know, it shows us our sin and drives us to the savior.

01:02:24

So that's really your evangelism moment there. The 10 commandments damn all of us.

01:02:29

None of us have kept them. We've all broken them. We need someone who kept them for us.

01:02:34

And his name is Christ. There's the second use of the law, which is a more civil use, but it's to restrain our evil, our corruption.

01:02:42

Third use of the law, this matters for the Christian in Christ. The law of God guides our living. So the 10 commandments are still relevant as a guide for life.

01:02:50

We still think it's wrong to murder. You know, we still think it's wrong to commit adultery. We shouldn't steal. We shouldn't covet what our neighbor has.

01:02:56

We should honor our parents. You know, we should only worship the Lord. We shouldn't take his name in vain. We should honor the Sabbath, et cetera.

01:03:02

And so we do uphold the law as our guide for living in Christ. So that's how

01:03:08

I would understand the law, the mosaic law, those two big subsets. There's three categories underneath those two.

01:03:15

So the moral law still is a relevant thing and can absolutely be used in evangelism in particular in its first use.

01:03:22

To crush people and to drive us to Jesus. It's good,

01:03:27

John. I'm in, I'm going to get to a Howard family. I'm assuming that's Matthew.

01:03:33

Uh, I don't know if he wanted, if you wanted to hop on here and ask areas. Yeah, let's get him on here.

01:03:39

Hey brother, go ahead and ask your question. That way we can kind of, uh, fully understand what you're, what you're getting at.

01:03:46

Okay. Um, I'd like to, if we could discuss a new covenant, cause you mentioned that there's roughly two different covenant theology, but what we're forgetting about is the, well, not forgetting, but the new covenant theology and then the progressive covenant theology in there too.

01:04:04

I wanted to discuss their views on the 10 commandments, not so much on the Sabbath, but, um, just discuss about, um, that they reject the, the indication like the moral law versus ceremonial and all those, those types of things, because the way they see it is that they see, um, it all interspersed there.

01:04:25

They don't, they don't make those, um, stark differences. Okay. This is a moral law and this one's a ceremonial law and this one's a whatever.

01:04:34

So I just wanted to hear some discussion on that and see, okay, how did we come to this, this whole moral ceremonial, how can we talk to people about this?

01:04:45

Cause I have a pastor friend who was like, just, we're so close in theology, but he's a progressive covenantal theologian.

01:04:52

And so I just want, I want to know, like, how can I not necessarily answer him, but how, how do we get to our point and how can

01:05:00

I discuss with these things? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

01:05:05

The reason why I would not actually say they're a part of the covenantal camp and most covenant theologians really don't put them in there because, um, they, they're more dispensational than they are covenantal.

01:05:20

Um, they're, they're almost a hybrid between the two. Uh, they, from my understanding, they do not believe in the covenant.

01:05:28

Some of them believe in the covenant of works. They don't believe in the covenant of grace. And so they're, they're understanding, uh, like even with the progressive guys, they, they, they're getting closer, but they're not, they're not fully there yet.

01:05:41

Um, there's a great video on YouTube on this, the difference between covenant theology, uh, 1689 federalism and new covenant theology.

01:05:50

Um, I can put in the link here a little bit later, but there is a, there is a danger and in your question, you're getting at it with the antinomianism is that if you don't hold, so traditional covenant theology does allow for and does really push for this understanding of, um, uh, the uses of the law.

01:06:12

It's very obvious that we have another use for the law because otherwise church discipline wouldn't make any sense of why we're enacting it or why we're doing it, um, or why we need to repent of sin, this is kind of how, and I know they, they have an explanation for that, but I, I don't,

01:06:28

I see what they're trying to do. I see the, what they're trying to get at. I don't feel like it's, it actually fixes any of the theological problems that they're, they're feeling that's there.

01:06:40

Um, I do see that it, it can be very dangerous when it comes to understanding the three different uses that we kind of already talked about.

01:06:49

Um, I don't want to, I'm going to leave some room for you, Justin, if you wanted to jump in there, I know we're running out of time here.

01:06:57

You're good. You said I will keep going. Yeah. Keep going. Oh, okay. Okay. Uh, yeah. So I don't know if Matthew, if that's kind of what you were asking.

01:07:07

Um, the, the structures are so different, like even in, even the way they understand the, the uses of the old

01:07:14

Testament and the covenants in the old Testament are different. Um, and again, what's hard is that there's not a lot being written by the, the new covenant guys and even the progressing covenant.

01:07:24

I haven't spent a lot of time dealing with the progressive covenant guys. Um, I, I think it's very similar to the progressive dispensationalism, right?

01:07:32

Um, well, the progressive, uh, covenant theology, like I'm getting from this guy who went to, um,

01:07:39

South theological seminary and it was underneath Greg Willem and all those guys.

01:07:46

So yes, those guys are new. Yeah. And Peter Gentry. Peter Gentry. You're talking about like kingdom through covenant and all that.

01:07:52

Yeah. Yeah. That book is quoted many times in the book that we're talking about right now. And, um, he's there.

01:08:01

He's so, he's so chattel. Yeah, I agree. I don't, I'm with you, man.

01:08:06

Cause I observed the same thing. Um, you know, and Tom Schreiner is quoted a decent amount by Sam in this book.

01:08:12

And Tom is a professor at Southern as well, where, um, Wellman Gentry are.

01:08:18

So it was interesting to me to go ahead and continue. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Yeah. Matthew, go ahead.

01:08:23

What was your thought? No, it's, it's just that I was, I knew it was progressive. And then

01:08:29

I was, I went and had like a really good discussion with him about it. And I found out that he was so close.

01:08:35

He believed in the covenant of works. He just called it something else, believed in a covenant of grace. Like it, we're so close.

01:08:41

And the only point that I found that we really differed was this whole idea on the law and how you, um, how you articulate it basically.

01:08:51

Right. So I just wanted discussion on this. Yeah, no, I think that, I think that's helpful.

01:08:57

I mean, I'm going to admittedly say I'm not really up on new covenant and progressive. I have interacted with, uh,

01:09:04

Gentry and Wellman. And I think I know why Sam quotes them. Sam's kind of, I think he's showing some harmony between the

01:09:13

Presbyterians and, and even some of the new progression or new progressive and new covenant theologians in, in quoting them, uh, saying,

01:09:21

Hey, look, there's a broader perspective here that we all agree on. And I, my guess is that's why he's quoting them.

01:09:28

Um, so go ahead. If I, if I can just insert something, I mean, this is, this is probably the best answer that I could give, um, in a very short way, the reason primarily that we would understand as reformed people.

01:09:43

I mean, obviously you can look at the confessions, uh, for yourself, Matt. I mean, even in the 1689 chapter 19 is on the law of God.

01:09:49

Uh, and that may even be of some interest to you, uh, to see how those framers articulated it.

01:09:55

And that's very similar to how Westminster and others would, and even Savoy would do the same. But I, I understand that one of the reasons we contend for the moral law is that we understand that God wrote his law on the hearts of man in one sense, that he wrote his law on like Adam's heart.

01:10:13

For example, when he made the covenant of works with Adam, there is a law, a law of nature, a law of creation.

01:10:21

It's God's law that he writes on Adam's heart effectively that is universally binding and so that, that carries over, you know, it exists before the mosaic law is given, you know,

01:10:35

I mean, so like that, that moral law precedes the mosaic law and it, and it is transcendent in that way.

01:10:42

And so that's where the reformed have seen, this is my understanding, the reformed have seen through history and through the

01:10:47

Bible that you have that moral law that God gives at creation that endures on through and is then reissued or republished in one sense as a piece of the mosaic law, and then there are those other unique laws, those positive laws,

01:11:05

AKA the ceremonial and civil laws that are also given, but that that moral law, because of its transcendent nature, is still applicable under those reformed understandings of the uses of the law, first, second, third, that I outlined a minute ago.

01:11:20

And that, that may be a piece of difference. I have not read all of Wellam and Gentry's book either. I'm familiar -ish with, you know, that the premise behind it and stuff, but I think, you know, the way we understand the covenant of works and the way we understand the law of God that has existed from the moment the world was created and its transcendence has a lot to do with how the reformed have understood the moral law and have aimed to uphold it, yeah, that, that's sort of,

01:11:48

I mean, that's a brief -ish shot at it that I would see as a piece of difference.

01:11:55

And I would say to that as well, that a lot of, I know I've talked with some of these guys and I know that the struggle that they're having is that the law has been fulfilled, so why are we still saying that people are under the law?

01:12:05

And what we're saying is we agree the law has been fulfilled. We are not under the law as far as its condemnation.

01:12:13

So there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, but that doesn't mean the law is no longer being used.

01:12:19

And Jesus even says, I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. So once the law is fulfilled as far as its requirements, the nature by which

01:12:27

God uses the law is not. So in other words, when God uses it, we can't be condemned for it and we're not underneath its final punishment because it's been fulfilled, but it's not done as far as in its uses because obviously it's still being used.

01:12:43

Well, and even the language of the apostles, it's quite clear that they look back to the law, in particular, the 10 commandments in thinking about life in the church.

01:12:52

So pointedly, maybe Romans 13 is a good illustration of this. Romans 13, 9,

01:12:59

Paul writes, for the commandments, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet.

01:13:05

And any other commandment are summed up in this word, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. And he's quoting there

01:13:10

Leviticus 19. Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.

01:13:17

But I mean, even the way that Paul is talking about love there, he's articulating and unpacking what love looks like using the moral law of God.

01:13:26

And he's saying love one another sums up the second table of the law, as it were, commandments five through 10.

01:13:34

And that's like what Jesus says in the first commandment and the second is like unto it, love the Lord, your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, love your neighbor as yourself.

01:13:41

This sums up the law and the prophets. And so even taking our cue from Christ and the apostles, it's very clear that these things still guide our lives, though Jesus has accomplished them and we are no longer under the law and it no longer threatens or condemns us.

01:13:55

It's still, given its transcendence and its righteousness, it still is a perfect guide for our living.

01:14:03

Awesome. Okay. I'm not sure if I'm that's all I would have that conversation. Okay. I'm not sure if I'm taking up too much time.

01:14:10

Do you have any other questions? Cause I have another one that came from this. Sure. We got, we got, we can take it about two to three minutes.

01:14:16

We'll grab it. Go ahead, Matt. Is that helpful at all? Any of that stuff that we discussed just now? I agree.

01:14:22

And that's where my position is. I'm trying to map out and if questions come, I'm a perfectionist,

01:14:27

I guess. When we talk about the moral law and we talk about that, every man, woman, and child knows the moral law, of course, from birth and that God has put it on us.

01:14:39

Then when we come to the new covenant and this, we might be going to next week or next month, when we come to the new covenant, it also says that our, the law is written on our hearts.

01:14:49

Is that not the moral law that's written on our hearts? Is that a new covenant blessing? The moral law written on our hearts.

01:14:56

If everyone is already been written on their hearts, just a question there.

01:15:05

I mean, I think I understand the question that you're asking. And when I, I think that there is, and I would have to,

01:15:13

I would have to research this a little bit in terms of to like cite and quote theologians to you,

01:15:19

Matt, but as I would process that biblically, there is this, this moral law of God that is binding on all human beings.

01:15:27

And in one sense has been written on the hearts of man in that man has a conscience and man in a pretty general way, understands things like that murder is wrong, right?

01:15:38

I mean, that's pretty commonly understood and there's reasons for that. I mean, this goes back to even, sure, this even goes back to some of the arguments that evangelists will make from a perspective of apologetics.

01:15:51

Why is it that there is such an agreed upon moral basis globally on certain realities where we just know these things are wrong?

01:15:59

Well, how do we know that? You know how do we know these things are right? Well, it's the law of creation, you know, that in one sense is wired into our

01:16:08

DNA. It's hardwired into us. But when God talks in the prophets, for example, of writing his law on the hearts of people, it's this internal,

01:16:17

I think what he's pointing to is the internal work of the Holy spirit, where not only he's putting his spirit inside of us, he's given us a new heart and he's writing his law there.

01:16:25

Nobody will have to tell his brother to know the Lord because everybody's going to know me. It's going to be this kind of internal reality where it's not the law speaking to you from outside condemning you.

01:16:36

And yes, it's hardwired into your DNA, but it's actually this work of mind inside of you where you're going to now delight in my law and your inner man, to use the language of Paul in Romans 7.

01:16:48

You know, I mean, so that's how I would begin to process that biblically, because clearly there's a difference in all mankind being created and being bound to God and having this kind of law wired into them, and then what

01:17:01

God does through his work in the new covenant and the indwelling presence of the spirit, where we then would delight in the law of God and our inner man.

01:17:09

And we are being taught truth by the Holy spirit and are being conformed to the image of Christ by him.

01:17:14

Go ahead, John. Right. Oh, I mean, he says, and you will walk in them, which is different.

01:17:20

So the unbeliever has the law written on the heart to convict them. The believer has the law of God written on their heart and the spiritual power to actually obey them, which is the difference.

01:17:32

Hey guys, I don't, I don't really have anything else for you other than I just want to say thank you and please, you know, send us, send us your questions.

01:17:42

I want to encourage you. I know that during COVID, a lot of guys were feeling it.

01:17:47

Justin and I do as well. What are we doing? Why are we doing this? Um, sometimes it's really hard to, to, you know, get up every

01:17:56

Sunday and, and get up every Wednesday and, and think about, am I really making an impact? And so my encouragement to you is if you are preaching

01:18:03

Christ, like we talked about tonight, I can promise you you're making an impact. You need to trust the power of the gospel and God will do his work.