Cultish - Navigating the World of Astrology, Pt. 2

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Cultish - Congressmen William D. Upshaw Pt. 3

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The farther along I got in study, the more people at the sort of, shall we say, upper echelons that I met in my area, the more it became clear that astrology that is done well is done in an altered state of consciousness.

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All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cultish, Entering the Kingdom of the Cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts.

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I'm one of the co -hosts here. I am back with Andrew, the super sleuth of the show.

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I should say we are back with Marcia Montenegro. This is kind of a triple threat today.

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I feel like we're all just kind of around the ship together. We've released the kraken in part one on astrology.

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We're about to release the kraken in part two. Marcia, thank you so much for coming back with us.

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It's great to talk with you. Oh, thank you. Thank you for letting me go on for a second hour.

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That's great with me because I have more to say. Yes. It'll be at least an hour.

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We know that for sure. The kraken, she's still thrashing, and Jerry and I are sitting back. We're watching. We're watching.

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We're watching. We're trying to guide the kraken a little bit. In the last episode, we are kind of going into the historical origins of astrology, kind of really defining terms, explaining how astronomy didn't come from astrology, but rather it's split from astrology.

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That's very, very important because as we transition into the second episode, we're following the whole ancient origins of it.

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If any of you, ladies and gentlemen, have not checked out the first part, this is part two. Go back to part one.

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It'll give a lot more context to this discussion, but what we're going to talk about is really defining terms because now we're going to get into the nitty -gritty in terminology, but also with that, explore the aspects of the spiritual dangers of it, especially if you are a

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Christian and you're toying around with this stuff, as you've seen in this little clip that we played.

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This is another clip from the John Ankerberg show. She's talking about going at the best astrology

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I could do is when I was in an altered state of consciousness. What you'll see in many ways, and this is even mentioned too in Steven Bankart's book in chapter four of Second Coming of the

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New Age in Science, I Believe So Falsely Called, is where there's always an aspect of even where things can, on some level, be scientific, the vague and the unknown are always filled in by the new age, and that's even outside the realm of astrology.

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But anyways, Marcia, I want to just kind of give it back to you. When you heard her mention that, and this is an interview,

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I believe, from sometime around the late 70s, early 80s in the John Ankerberg show, and this is your experience when you hear her say that.

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Just tell me off the get -go, what comes to mind? Oh, yeah, I totally relate to what she said because actually that would happen to me when

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I was doing a chart reading, and this is when the person was there, and I was doing their reading for them.

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I would feel guided through the chart, and I felt a connection with the chart.

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It wasn't a connection with the person. I never felt a connection with the person. I always felt a connection with the chart because I've had people say, well, you were reading body language, and I'm like, no,

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I really was looking at the chart, and I'm talking to the person, but I am really focused on the chart, and so I feel like I'm entering the chart, and I'm sort of guided through it.

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Of course, I had spirit guides as a New Ager, and all

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New Agers do have them, and all astrologers have them, all psychics have them, and I felt that my spirit guide was probably guiding me through the chart, so I would look at the chart, and there would be a certain part of the chart that would just draw me or jump out at me, and I would kind of go with that, and I would start there, and then it would just kind of flow, usually.

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There was a few times where it didn't flow, but most of the time, I'd say like 95 % of the time it did, and I always felt like after the chart reading was done, then it was kind of like I had to come down because it was like I was in another state of mind, an altered state, and I've said this before in my testimony and when talking about astrology that you do go into an altered state when you do this because actually doing an occult practice automatically triggers it, and I had been doing

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Eastern meditation for several years before I started doing astrology, so I think

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I was really primed for that because you go into an altered state with Eastern meditation too, so I think

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I was really just primed for that from the Eastern meditation, and I would just go into this day.

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I was aware that I was in it, and I knew it's not like I was out of it.

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I wasn't out of it at all. I was very focused. I knew where I was. I knew who the person was I was talking to, but you're just in this other state where you're receptive, where you're kind of seeing things or knowing things or understanding things that I wouldn't see or know just sitting there looking at the chart before the person came, so that's definitely true, and I think that even some of my friends at the time who were astrologers, we would talk about that.

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You were in this other state. Wow. Yeah, and that's huge because in many ways it makes sense that you would get into an altered state or you'd have a point of reference for recognizing it because while all practices are different from each other, different New Age occultic practices, the one commonality they always have is crossing over into a dimension you should not be into, you should not tap into, and there's a biblical basis for that, so it would make sense how you would have a point of reference in at least identifying, okay,

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I've sort of been here before, almost if you are on a hike and you're going around, you're coming back around the other side or something like that, and you have a point of reference for where you've been.

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That definitely would make sense. So yeah, so maybe what we can do is I want to get into maybe defining some of the terms.

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Okay. So this is just something I want to get clarification on because this seems to be the word

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Aquarian or the Aquarian Age. This is just something I've seen get thrown around and it almost seems kind of, almost like an eschatological term where how

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Christians, regardless of what your view on eschatology is, they always believe in the return of Jesus.

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He was coming again to raise the dead for one last time for judgment. But in many ways, it almost seems that the

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Aquarian Age is almost sort of like the second coming for people who are in the new age.

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At least that's just my analysis of it from a very far off vantage point.

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What is the Aquarian Age? Can you define that and how does it relate to astrology? Yeah, and I think it's true.

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The age of Aquarius has been anticipated in the new age for a while.

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And I mean, going back to the musical Hair, which I'm sure you guys are too young to remember because it probably was on stage on Broadway before you were born.

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There was this musical called Hair. Have you heard of it? I have not.

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You haven't heard of Hair? No, there was a musical that came out I think called Hairspray.

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No, no, no. No, that's completely different. It's musical Hair and it's the song, this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius.

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I've heard that tune in passing somewhere. Yeah. I might have been in some sort of vintage record store.

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I think I might have heard it. Yeah, a famous group called the Fifth Dimension sang that song.

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But that was in Hair and it was almost like their theme song and it was very popular.

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It was in the culture. People heard it on the radio. People sang it. Hair was a very big hit.

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You ought to Google it because I think you'll find it very interesting to understand the times and it was kind of a precursor to all the new age stuff that came in a way.

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So the age of Aquarius was sung about in that musical even though astrologically it wasn't really correct with the wording.

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They used the wording that would fit into lyrics, not necessarily accurate stuff.

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So there's this idea of the age of Aquarius kind of in the culture there. And then in the new age,

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I became very aware of it early on because it would be spoken of here and there by different people, not just astrologers.

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These are people in the new age who aren't astrologers or don't even know astrology. But the age of Aquarius was seen as this thing kind of on the horizon and we're about to enter it or we are entering it.

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And what it's based on is something called the Great Ages. And these are 2 ,000 years long.

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And they actually are astronomical, astronomically based. It's the constellation that the

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North Pole points to and it shifts. There's a shift on the

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Earth's axis. It's due to something called the precession of the equinoxes, which is a very technical term and I'm not even going to try to explain it.

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You can just look it up. It says precession, not procession, but precession,

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P -R -E. Precession of the equinoxes. And so the Earth wobbles on its axis and gradually over time it shifts.

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The North Pole shifts to a different constellation and it points to that constellation for 2 ,000 years and then it shifts.

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Excuse me. And it goes backwards through the zodiac. So you don't go forward,

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Aries, Taurus, Gemini. You go backwards. So like the age of Taurus was before the age of Aries.

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And the age of Aries, then there was the age of Pisces. Hang on, I've got to drink some water.

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No, you're good. My throat gets a little dry when I talk.

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All right. I think I'm okay. All right. So then the age of Pisces, okay, the age of Pisces began around the time of Christ.

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And so the way New Agers and astrologers look at it is that Jesus ushered in the age of Pisces.

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And Pisces, as the 12th sign of the zodiac, is the sign of dissolution of self, the sign of universal love, universal consciousness, kind of surrender.

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It's a sign of surrender and martyrdom. And so Jesus is tied into that and was often viewed as the avatar of the age of Pisces.

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And he ushered it in because the age of Pisces was to purge everybody, to purge civilization and to purge the earth, to prepare it for the age of Aquarius.

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And so the way that New Agers see Jesus, or some New Agers see Jesus and some astrologers see

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Jesus, they tie him into the sign of Pisces. And they say, well, look, he talked about love and he died a martyr's death.

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And also Pisces is a sign of a fish. So Jesus had some disciples who were fishermen and they went fishing a few times and all the fish stories that are in the

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New Testament. So they would tie in these things with Pisces and say, see, this shows that Jesus was this avatar, which means an avatar in the

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New Ages, somebody who's at a very advanced spiritual level who incarnates at will at a certain time in order to bring some kind of lesson to mankind.

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That's the New Age view. It's actually a Hindu term for the incarnations of the god

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Vishnu. But the New Agers take it and they kind of put their own twist on it. So I actually have an article on my website for those interested called

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The Piscean Jesus and it's all about Jesus as the avatar of Pisces and responding to that biblically, you know, how do you respond to that biblically to somebody who believes that it was actually a seminary paper.

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So that's on my website for people who really want to get into that. So anyway, so this has been going on for 2 ,000 years, right?

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And so here we are at the doorstep of the next stage of Aquarius and Aquarius stands for, on a larger scale in astrology, stands for invention, innovation, technology, androgyny, group efforts and benefits for the group.

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It's a very group, corporate type identity rather than individual.

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And so all of these things are put into the age of Aquarius. I mean, there are other things too, like development of, sometimes people put in development of psychic powers, although personally

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I don't think it really fits with Aquarius. It fits more with Pisces, but people throw that in there.

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So what happens is that, of course, if you look at where we are now and most astrologers and new agers probably would say we are in the age of Aquarius and that we're in the process of entering it and we definitely have at least one foot in it.

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And so, look at all the ways we can prove this is the age of Aquarius.

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You know, a new ager would say, look at the gender issues, you know, transgender, gender fluidity, androgyny, you know, androgyny was even getting, was kind of a thing in the 80s, the 1980s.

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And I remember that and I remember correlating it with the age of Aquarius. I mean that was, I was an astrologer at the time.

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So you know, you remember Annie Lennox of the what's that group she's a singer for?

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I usually can't remember the name of the singer and I remember the group. Now I can't remember. Oh, the Eurythmics. The Eurythmics.

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I don't know if you know who she is either. I'm really dating myself. Yeah. No, it's good though.

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Well, I like it because even though while you're mentioning things from your time in many ways it's the Aquarian age is something that's constantly sort of been revised and reinterpreted or it's gone through as we recall we have iPhones now versus when you probably had record players or 8 -tracks or whatever.

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Yeah, right. I remember cassette tapes. Yeah, me too. I'm an 80s kid.

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Cell phones and things like that. So yeah, but you know there was this Annie Lennox was kind of famous for looking androgynous.

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If you go on YouTube and find some videos with her I actually think the music of the group is very good.

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Yeah. I think she was an inspiration for Marilyn Manson if I could be wrong. Oh, wow. I think he was inspired by her but anyway so you've got this androgyny and these gender issues.

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You've got this very advanced technology that we have now you know with the I mean we've gone way beyond the smartphone thing you know there's even people are getting to more advanced things now and the technology of course is more advanced so that would all be seen as part of the age of Aquarius and the idea that we have to be kind of universal in our outlook.

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We have to do things that are benefit for the group. So these are age of Aquarius was for whatever reason maybe because we were thinking we were going into this new age it made it exciting because it's like oh this

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Pisces thing has you know been around for 2 ,000 years we're all ready for something new and look at the age of Aquarius it all looks you know bright and shiny and so people would always put these positive spins on it because of that and I think it was it was actually maybe made too positive because I actually

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I remember as an astrologer that I saw the negative aspects of Aquarius. Yeah. Hey Marcia.

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I sometimes pointed that out like you know age of Aquarius doesn't necessarily mean everything is going to be great for you guys.

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So I was always kind of a party pooper you know. Marcia I have a question for you. Yeah. If you can put your astrology or new age hat on we know we don't want to ever put it on spiritually but just just for thinking this way so when

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I think about pagan religions when I think about Hinduism I think about time as not being linear right.

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I see I see time as being cyclical however it seems like what's going on with the new age is they have to deal with Jesus somehow and what we have with Christianity is we have a linear based concept of time.

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We have a beginning and we have a consummation of all things and a continuation from then. However correct me if I'm wrong but with horoscopes even with these new ages it's irrelevant essentially because it's all cyclical.

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It's going to go to another one or another two thousand years and another one and another two thousand years and another one and another two thousand years.

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There's no consummation of all things. Right. Right. There's negative impact still in quote unquote to this age of Aquarius that they live in.

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Correct? It's not always positive. Because then of course after the two thousand years you know then you're going to go back to you know you're going to go to the age of Crapicorn which is very different you know

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I mean going back to the time I was an astrologer if you had said to me well you know would you be excited if what was coming was the age of Capricorn instead of the age of Aquarius I'd be like eww no.

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You know Capricorn has to do with structure and limitations and you know it can be very rigid it has to do with career and goals and all this kind of stuff that I was like completely like not in tune with.

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Right. And you know I'm still not really in tune with this. The Kraken don't care.

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It would be like the age of Capricorn what would be exciting about that? The age of Aquarius. It has this kind of excitement to it that people saw and yeah but you're right because it's cyclical you're only going through the constellations backwards but you're still going through the same constellations.

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Right. There's nothing really new you know it's just going to be the same the same ones over and over again over a long period of time and so there is no real end point and since a lot of us

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New Agers believed in reincarnation I mean that's cyclical too. Supposedly you're going to advance and one day you won't reincarnate you know but then actually that could be kind of scary because then what does that mean?

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People had different ideas about what that was and none of them actually were very appealing for a western individualist.

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You know it wasn't appealing to think you were going to merge with some kind of energy and just become a drop in the ocean which is kind of usually was the usual idea.

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Right. So yeah you're right there's not this linear there's not this consummation and you're right that they have to do something with Jesus so here he is he happens to be born at the beginning of the age of Pisces so he ushers in he becomes the avatar for the age of Pisces and he's tied into that and that's you know that's one of the views of Jesus in the new age.

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It's interesting to me because it sounds to me like Jesus the incarnation of God himself taking on flesh and dying and resurrecting from the dead through a wrench into astrology and like it's like I see

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I see the thinkers of modern times having to makeshift around to try to construct a cyclical world view inside now a modern linear view of time but hiding the fact that it never offers salvation or anything of greater value than Jesus ever could that's what it seems like to me.

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Right right well yeah in the new age it's always your own you know you're forging your own spiritual path you know it's always up to you you're you know you're having to spiritually advance you know you're responsible for your spiritual path and so you have to learn your karmic lessons this lifetime so that your next life won't be horrible you know so that maybe you'll be a little more advanced spiritually in your next life than you were in this life and you'll learn some lessons you know and hopefully you're going to keep advancing so you know that's the idea what a burden that's a burden yeah and that's a huge thing yeah it is actually a burden yeah it is a burden and it's not you know and you don't have all the answers you don't really know what it's going to be like you don't know who you believe in reincarnation you still don't know who you're going to be in the next life you know you have no idea and you could end up being something or living somewhere you would hate

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I mean who knows you know it's just this big unknown this big question mark and you try to because that's your worldview you try to see it in a positive way you know you try to make peace with it so to speak and you hear lectures or you talk to other people who have these views and you know if they have like these good views or they seem to have answers then you listen to them and think yeah maybe it's like that or maybe

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I can think that you know that will help me deal with that issue or whatever so yeah so there's always this constant seeking you know constant seeking for answers and really never finding any final answers in the new age because there aren't any yeah that's right and one of the things too you mentioned even earlier you mentioned about things that are going on during your time and how they are interpreting the

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Aquarian age and in many ways there's nothing new under the sun so in many ways a lot of people in the new age movement at least the new age branches

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I've seen both of QAnon where or other type of conspiracy theories or kind of in that realm where they're looking at what's going on with COVID and all the things that happen with the global shutdown and how there's all these different forces that work to kind of keep everyone from the truth but in that they bring elements and I'm not going to bring up any particular aspect of what they bring up but what they always talk about with current events there's always these this cabal these secret people you know shadowing the truth but what their purpose in revealing the truth isn't about trying isn't ultimately from a biblical worldview it's about creating awareness it's almost a spiritual awakening and almost awakening this universal consciousness in fact

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Russell Brand who you know made his way through just a bunch of different comedies raunchy comedies in the earlier yeah about a decade ago and now he's sort of become his own little spiritual guru and he was talking about I was watching a

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YouTube video where he was just talking about some things going on in India with farmers not getting their farm that are having their farmland taken away by corporations who want to you know just cultivate on a large scale a lot of them are losing work but he's talking about it from a point of his ultimate end goal is that this is wrong and this is just I'm trying to bring awareness to this because he has a lot of he's a new ager that it's this is about having compassion and helping others and helping increase this awareness and while he didn't really say

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Aquarian age that's still a part and parcel just new age thinking as a whole is helping people awaken to their own universal consciousness or divine self and so in many ways you see that carried out even in current times especially and people are doing that in light of current events and that's just one thing

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I made emphasis on did you have any thoughts on that before we jump on to the next term we're going to jump into yeah no

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I agree this it is always about awakening to some kind of truth some kind of spiritual truth that people are not aware of and so you know you're trying to awaken to these truths you're trying to awaken others to these truths and the people and people in the new age believe that they see these things they believe that they see these truths and other people don't see them you know so new agers go on and operate from that viewpoint that I see this truth

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I see what's happening I understand why all this is going on and I'm sure that new agers and astrologers have given you know interpretations to COVID and what it is and I can even guess at what some of them might be you know it's like maybe a final purging from the age of Pisces for example or something like that you know you can come up with it's actually easy to come up with what all these different things could mean when you're in the new age and so you know so you see all these things and it's like okay maybe you know if you have a platform like he does and you're a celebrity you can get out there and say things and you're saying them like I'm going to say this because maybe some people will kind of wake up and understand so yeah that's that's very much of a new age kind of approach to things okay yes definitely

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I would agree so the next term I want to kind of jump into and this is just one of those things that come there's a lot of terms in astrology but this is just one that comes up a lot is zodiac and so that's like how do we unpack that because that's just something that regardless if you've been exposed to astrology on any level you will hear that because from zodiac there's things that splinter from that but a lot of it has to do with the astrological charts a lot of it has to do with what your identity is from the astrologers in relation to those charts but it's just defined in basic layman's terms zodiac and how does that explain that in the world of astrology okay yeah the zodiac would refer to the 12 zodiac signs

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I believe it comes from a greek word for animals right isn't the same word that the word zoo comes from and so the 12 zodiac signs you know

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Aries, Taurus, Gemini and so the zodiac is but you know actually that's a popular commercial term astrologers actually don't use that word very much like I never used that term like when

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I was doing a chart I don't think I ever did I don't think I I don't know I don't think I did

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I probably would say something like you have you know you have

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Capricorn on the cusp of your seventh house so that means blah blah blah

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I don't think I would say you have the zodiac sign of Capricorn because it's really kind of a popular term and astrologers they're really kind of elitist they don't fall into the popular kind of talking about the zodiac signs you know

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I used to get really irritated with people who would say oh they'd find I was an astrologer and they'd say oh guess my son's sign or guess my zodiac sign you know and I would say you know you're much more than your son's sign you actually may be behaving more like your rising sign you know so if I guess you

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I might be guessing your rising sign but if you don't know your rising sign then I'm not going to know if I'm right or not so you know because see the chart is not just when you're born and you have this zodiac sign that's based on the position of your son and so everyone going around saying well

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I'm a Gemini I'm a Capricorn I'm a Leo they're just talking about the position of their son you really have to look at in astrology the moon and all of the planets and then where they are in the chart and what your rising sign is very important in astrology so it's the it's whatever sign is on the eastern horizon at the time of your birth and it's considered to be a major influence on your personality and sometimes on your physical looks and your outward behavior so that's you know so a lot of people would say well you know

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I used to think I acted more like my rising sign than my son's sign when I was an astrologer and so that the zodiac is those 12 signs and I want to say something related to this it was one of the things

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I wanted I don't know if this is a good time to bring it up but I get asked a lot about or a lot of people challenge me there are

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Christians who really think astrology was given by God and they think that the pagans took it and they distorted it into what we call astrology but actually it really came from God it tells the gospel and they will use different or actually misuse certain scriptures to support it but one of the things they say is

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Mazaroth which is in Job and it's in one other book but in Job that word is used and everybody says it refers to the zodiac but it doesn't and I have done a

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Facebook post on it I've posted it a few times because people try to use that to support the idea that the 12 zodiac signs

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Aries, Taurus, Gemini God designed them that way and we're supposed to look at them that way so this is one of the things

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I run into in my ministry but Mazaroth actually is a word that scholars believe just refers to a constellation it doesn't refer to the 12 zodiac signs now in older times there were you could find some older Christian books maybe where they're going to say it does but that's not the thinking of scholars today and more research has been done on that word and it's only used once in the

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Bible there's another place in 1st Kings or something I think where there's a word like it but I think it means something else

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I can't remember now but the main word is used in Job and that's where a lot of people will point to that and so I want to just say very emphatically that the zodiac is not in the

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Bible I just want to be real clear on that it's not in there and there are yes there are some references to some constellations that when you read your

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Bible it will say Orion or the bear and there again you're going back to Hebrew terms and then how it was translated later it doesn't mean that God is saying look to these things because they mean something

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God's talking about his creation and he's referring to his creation because he created it and so he knows all of it another verse that's misused is where it says

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God calls the star he knows the name of every star I think maybe in Psalms and so a lot of people have told me that they see they're right there so that means that you know there's we can use astrology or we can use these terms like Aries and Taurus or whatever what that means is that God knows the name of every star that's a way of saying

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God knows every single star that exists because he created it right so that's the whole point because we don't even know how many stars there are right there so we don't even know how many galaxies there are right universe is so vast we can't see the end of it we don't know how many stars there are it's kind of mind -boggling when you think about it

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God knows not only how many stars are he knows every single star personally so that's what that is saying it's showing the majesty of God as creator and that's the whole purpose of that passage and people completely miss it and they go to this little petty thing to me it's very

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I'm sorry I don't want to sound condescending but I get a little upset because I have to deal with this all the time no

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I think it's good we've released the Kraken so I want to support the

33:49

Kraken real quick so you're referring to Job 38 and it's Job 38 verses 31 through 33 and I'll read it can you bind the chains of the

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Pleiades or loose the cords of Orion can you lead forth the Mazaroth in their season or can you guide the bear with its children do you know the ordinance of the heavens can you establish their rule on the earth so when we're reading this at first we gotta go what in the world is going on if we just go to these verses willy nilly well first we gotta look at it in context this is after Job is cried out to the

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Lord to answer him so the Lord responds to Job and humbles him saying do you know who you are speaking to at first he's saying these are the things that I do

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I am God I hold the knowledge of the secret things he's saying pretty much you are man you are a creature created by God there are things you will not know and things that you cannot do this is what

34:43

I have done as God so essentially I would say Job 38 and the Lord responding in this nature is actually telling him you don't know it's actually almost stating the opposite it's saying you will never know these specific things because I am

34:57

God I am the one who made them you won't know why I made Jerry the way I made Jerry I did it for my good will and my good pleasure were you there right that's what he's saying were you there when

35:07

I saw the great when I looked at the deep chasm chasms of the earth when the water lifted up that's what

35:13

God's saying he's saying you're but a man why are you trying to know the things of God and then you're taking the verse way out of context saying no

35:22

I can know the things of God I can know the secret things by actually responding in a way that God says to job you can't do these things which

35:30

I find a very very disheartening that people would go to a proof text without context when it's almost a condemnation of it so yes exactly and it's and it's and it's not even really about you know it's not like well

35:43

God knows these secret things of astrology right know them right it's that he's not even talking about exactly yes you know and it's it's this it's to me it's sad that Christians will miss the power and majesty of that passage you just read it's a passage that glorifies

36:00

God and and reveals his majesty it's absolutely you know it's a kind of passage that when you really think about what

36:07

God is saying it takes your breath away it takes my breath away to read something like that I love that passage in Job where God says those things and it shows his majesty and his power it's not about God telling us that we can look at the stars or the constellations and get some kind of message out of them you know if you know that's not what it's about and it's like you're taking this powerful majestic passage of God's word and you're trying to make it into this little petty penny

36:37

Annie idea you know that oh I can get a meaning out of this and it's like no that is just so it's so it's just cheapens you know the whole passage and so I think maybe because you know

36:49

I am a former astrologer I'm especially sensitive to this because now I can read passages like that and I can read passages where God refers to the stars and I can appreciate them for what

37:01

God is really saying because I no longer look at it the way I used to you know

37:06

I can appreciate I can appreciate his creation reflecting the power and majesty of God and that's what's going on in those passages and so for somebody to miss that because they're trying to get some kind of little cheap meaning out of it on some kind of message just really it just irks me it irks me is a good way to put it but anyway so I do

37:30

I have done a post on that in fact I've done a post on that passage where he refers to the Pleiades and Orion and the bear and everything and I've done a post on Maserat because I think you know we're going to miss the real meaning of things when we're trying to see it for something it's not and that's what astrology does see that's right away you can see a result of it it's distorting the word of God and it takes away from the majesty of God and it takes away from the meaning of God's word.

38:02

Amen. Wow and so speaking of astrology in the Bible we talked about what isn't in the

38:08

Bible and what's misinterpreted as far as as far as what's it about astrology and different verses of the

38:15

Bible I want to just get your thoughts on something in the lecture of Walt the audio lecture of Walter Martin that where he is talking about astrology he did mention something that was interesting he brought up the

38:26

Tower of Babel and I was I found this really interesting his perspective on it

38:32

I want to get your just because I remember as a kid I remember hearing the story of the Tower of Babel and I was thinking well how high did they have it like and I would go and I lived in Oakland in the

38:42

Bay Area whenever I'd see a high building I'd think well is that high enough? That was my only point of reference hearing that story as a kid apparently there's a place you're only allowed to build buildings so high right?

38:56

I did the same thing when I was a kid bro that's fun. Yeah so I pulled this up while Andrew was talking as a point of reference and this is just to kind of cross reference what

39:05

Martin said but Walter was saying that it was he believed it might have been a tower or even like a large temple that sort of ascended high into the heavens but the whole purpose was for planetary study not on a scientific scale but for astrology and I believe when

39:29

I cross reference blue letter bible .org it says that it might have been something called a ziggurat

39:36

I think is how you pronounce it and it says a popular view is that the people at Babel were building a ziggurat a tower built for the purpose of worship of the heavens.

39:44

This meant that people that the people were practicing the art of astrology rather than worshiping

39:49

God. And so anyways that was Walter's perspective and this is just a note from blue letter bible .org

39:57

of what it might be. What are your thoughts on that? It's going back to Nimrod. Yeah I've heard of I've read that and initially those are the things

40:05

I read about the tower of Babel that it might be a ziggurat that it might have been used for some kind of why read you know worship of the heavens astrology.

40:15

I've also read some opinions of people who disagree with that.

40:21

They don't think that the ziggurats existed yet or they don't think that's what it was for.

40:27

They think that you know it was maybe you know the idea was that the gods were up in the heavens and so you know to be close to them you would have to get up higher and higher and higher.

40:40

So I can see that maybe it was built for that because they were trying to get up as high as they could as close to the gods or they could have been elevating themselves you know because they're you know by getting up higher and higher they're becoming like the gods maybe and so that's another view.

41:01

So I think what we have to do and this is really what I learned in my seminary that I so appreciate so much is to not go beyond the text and to you know look at what it says and you can maybe if you have other passages that correlate you can maybe look at those but in this case it's really there's not that much else.

41:22

We've just got the Tower of Babel and I guess there's some references elsewhere but it doesn't really tell us anything except that God was angry because they were doing this out of pride and so it had to do that was the main thing they were being prideful and maybe they were trying to be close to the gods or maybe they were trying to look at the stars.

41:47

I don't know that astrology existed then see and I think I said that earlier that the earliest we know of it is in Babylon.

41:58

So I don't know that maybe it did exist but I don't know that they would need to build something up near the sky because if it already existed they were already viewing the movement of the planets and measuring them.

42:12

They would have to already know how to do that to do astrology. So I don't know that that's what they were doing.

42:18

I tend to think more they were just trying to either be close to what they thought were the gods or maybe they were trying to be like the gods you know because the

42:28

Bible's not very explicit about what they were doing. In shorter term, in summary without,

42:35

I mean you made a good point too, in summary it was idolatry. Yeah. At the end of the day that's what it was.

42:43

So on that note speaking of idolatry, I want to go back into defining terms of astrology.

42:50

So you're talking, you explain the aspects of the zodiac and this is interesting because,

42:55

Andrew do you remember the show Captain Planet? I do. So this is crazy because I was thinking about how inundated we are with all the different terms of astrology and how it's been inundated so in the cartoon

43:08

Captain Planet and some of you who are a little, are not as old as I am, you'd have to look this up right?

43:15

So in the story Captain Planet there's these kids known as the Planeteers and they get these special rings and these rings have the different elements.

43:22

Hot! Water! Fire! We're the Planeteers you can be one too, saving the planet is the thing to do.

43:31

Captain Planet! Dude I've watched Captain Planet a bunch bro. Yeah but the funny thing is it was all this message for kids about environmentalism but within it you'd add a lot of kind of these especially looking at it now it's got it had this woo stuff in it but in it they have the aspects of the different elements so according to this one website we pulled up the 12 zodiac signs apparently they're grouped into four elements.

43:58

Air Earth, Fire and Water. Like I said as soon as I saw that I thought of Captain Planet. That's just how

44:04

I am I've always got this like Google search bar in the back of my brain that's always thinking about movies and TV shows.

44:10

It's a great sign off. Yeah it's how it is yes. But what they mention here

44:15

I want to get your thoughts on this Marsha. It says if your natal chart check yours below includes many planets in a certain element you'll see the qualities of that element show up a lot in your life.

44:29

Alternatively if your chart is lacking in an element you'll have to work hard to cultivate its presence.

44:38

That's what got me curious. So one I wonder if you could do two things for us. Could you explain the aspect of the elements and how an astrologer or someone viewing how they view that and also when it talks about working to cultivate its presence that sounds that's where it gets kind of cultish in the sense at least my spidey sense goes off where I'm hearing this is something that you have to do.

45:02

This isn't about getting a better scientific understanding of the universe this is something that you're having to do to cross over to get the presence of something.

45:13

To be more fulfilled in yourself. Right but it's talking about it's like there's something there's some sort of entity you're trying to get a hold of it to attain the secret knowledge of you there's something else yourself so I don't know can you elaborate on that Marcia?

45:27

Yeah well the four elements are definitely part of astrology. Air, earth, water, fire and so all of those twelve signs are divided up into those you know elements so you have you know like the fire signs are like Aries and Sagittarius and Leo.

45:48

Okay so those are the fire signs and Cancer Scorpio and Pisces are water and then you got the earth and the air signs and they all have certain qualities about them so when an astrologer is looking at the chart they have that in mind so there's this idea that okay if this person has their sun and moon let's say both in the earth element then that's going to give them more of an earthy quality to their character and to the way they approach things so they tend to apply it that way and in other aspects how they may see it in the chart now that last part you read about you know if you don't have a lot of that element you have to make

46:34

I never heard that before I think that's just somebody's opinion where did you see that?

46:39

Oh I just pulled up a website called wellandgood .com it's a self -care website which is in that's just that person's opinion so you can be if that's what you know if you're like that if you're in the new age and maybe he knows or she knows astrology maybe not but maybe he or she knows enough about it to know about the elements then you can say something like that well

47:04

I think if you don't have any fire elements in your chart then you probably need to develop the fire qualities you know and that's just somebody's opinion

47:12

I never thought that way I never thought somebody if they didn't have any earth element in their chart unless their chart showed they were very unstable then

47:22

I might think oh yeah they don't have any earth element and they have this very unstable chart so they're probably not very they have to work harder to be practical but I wouldn't think of it in terms that you have this element missing and you need to make up for it but I wanted to say something else too and that is you don't just have the four elements you have the you have something else that has to do with the beginning and the middle and the end of the seasons so each planet is the beginning or the middle or the end of a season cardinal is the beginning and mutable is the end and fixed is the middle so you know each

48:01

Aries is a beginning sign and Taurus is a fixed sign and Gemini is a mutable sign so it's a dissolving sign and so that aspect of all of the signs and planets are taken in in the chart too astrologers looking at it not just with the position of the sun and the moon, the signs therein the houses therein and the signs that are on the cusp of the houses and how much distance is between each planet but you're looking at the elements and the cardinal fixed and mutable aspects as well and so you have all of these factors that are going into the interpretation that makes it incredibly complicated and basically it gives you all these options because there's so many different things you can look at you can look at this planet is in the ninth house so it means this and it's in the sign of Aries but look at this, this person has

49:00

Neptune over here and they have four planets that are cardinal signs etc etc so you just keep going on and on and on,

49:10

I used to say when I was an astrologer you can never get to the end of the chart and that's very true you can never get to the end of it, you could go on forever because there's just all these possibilities and that's that is a hallmark of the occult the occult is always complicated, it starts off looking like it's something you can master or like it's something that's real meaningful that you can figure out but it draws you in, if you're getting involved in it like you're becoming an astrologer like I did, it pulls you in and there's more and more things to look at, more and more things to consider you know, more and more aspects of it and it just goes on and on and on forever and it's like falling down into a bottomless pit and that's really what the occult is and the occult is incredibly complicated and I don't think people realize that,

50:02

I think that they think it's some kind of just kind of a mumbo -jumbo or something that's kind of superficial and silly but actually the real occult is not that way and that's why it's such a snare because it can really captivate you, it really captivates you once you get into it and it's just very dangerous because of that factor.

50:26

So yeah, so I know I went off the topic a little bit there with the element. No, I think it is very relevant and again you mentioned, and again you're talking about people looking at significances not only in the constellations and the stars but also the different seasons and in many ways too, the planetary alignment, planetary alignments in fact,

50:47

I was thinking, this was back in December and again, this is on a total side note there's always these different planetary alignments and they always talk about this is the only time it's going to happen in the next 100 years but it's like every single year we get something that's never going to happen in the next 100 years so in many ways it's like okay,

51:04

I'll check it out but this was a big thing that was going on back in December and this is about Jupiter and Saturn they were going to appear closest for Earth -based stargazers which just so happens to be the winter solstice so there's this huge emphasis, anybody who had any sort of New Age ideology in any way were interpreting this as something incredibly spiritually significant but it just goes to show that that's, yeah like you're saying, if you have a view in which you have a

51:38

New Age view, you're going to embrace the worldview where there's really no end in sight because again we're made in the image of God we have a

51:45

God -shaped hole and it's going to be the next thing the next star alignment, the next star alignment which is also,

51:52

I'm just curious about too because in many ways you're talking about your area of expertise and understanding these different astrological charts and how you would do different people's personalities and things like that but on a personal level you're doing this for other people but you're also searching yourself what was it like for you at that time versus where you are now explain that as a personal level for anyone listening in well

52:20

I certainly looked at my life, a big part of looking at my life was through my chart you know,

52:27

I knew my chart very well naturally, and being an astrologer I could interpret it and I would interpret the position of the planets, where they are now, that's what you do to see how they're affecting your life now and in the coming year you know, so you look at certain planets how they're moving around the chart so I had this world view that saw myself through the chart and through my belief system at the time of reincarnation and being on this spiritual path and learning spiritual lessons and you know, that was very much my world view, and it was this searching, kind of this searching, constantly searching for answers and feeling there are always more answers to find so you know,

53:14

I was reading a lot and interested in all these different things in the new age, and different teachings, not all teachings appealed to me in the new age there were definitely some things that did not appeal to me

53:25

I was not interested in aliens and things like that at all, but you know I had other interests and I think that I mean now,

53:35

I mean the way I see myself, I mean it's so completely different, it's even hard to say how different it is, it's

53:41

I see myself as created, a creature of God, created by God, made in His image, somebody who naturally, in the natural state, wants to do you know,

53:58

I want to do my own will but you know when I encountered Jesus Christ I realized that I needed

54:05

I needed a savior, I needed to be forgiven and so, you know,

54:13

I don't know I don't know how to answer your question, it's just so different, it's like, I don't you know, now

54:18

I see the stars and the planets, and I see them as beautiful creations that reflect the creator you know,

54:26

I don't have the I mean my world view is just so different I don't know how, I don't really know how to describe the difference

54:33

No, that's really good, I love it, I love it You know, I'm not on this constant search for the answers, you know,

54:38

I am on constant learning a curve, you know, learning I'm learning,

54:44

I read the Bible, I study study it and you know, the more you read it and the more you study, the more you see in it that maybe you didn't see before, it's very exciting, you know you read these passages that you understand better than you did, you know, when you read them a few years ago or whatever and that's, you know, so you're on this learning curve where I feel

55:05

I'm learning more and hopefully, you know, growing as a Christian so I'm not static, but I'm not like on this,

55:14

I'm not like on this journey where I have to, maybe not have to but where I wanted to seek out all these answers to things, you know because I feel like I have,

55:24

I don't have the answers to everything for sure, but I have the most important answers you know, spiritually speaking

55:31

I have the most important answer you know, so that's very different from before. No, that's good and one last thing

55:38

I want to bring up because you're talking about how, you know, you haven't learned everything but you're on a journey and I think what will be different between your journey now as a

55:45

Christian versus when you're an occultist is that that journey is now linear versus fragmented and all over the place which in many ways occultism is a fragmenting

55:55

Andrew, you, we were sending voice messages back and forth and so maybe this is sort of like the last points we wrap up here that you gave, sometimes you drop gospel bombs, other times you sort of drop these philosophical bombs that's like, whoa,

56:10

I never even thought of that, but you were talking in relation to the worldview of a new age or even someone who's into astrology and how they they're looking for a biblical worldview, like history is headed somewhere, you remember

56:25

I was talking about that, but you explained how someone who's into astrology views it differently and it was

56:32

I just remember my mind being blown so while I'm still picking up the pieces still from those voice messages, explain your thoughts and how you're explaining those voice messages

56:42

I thought it was very intriguing I think it's a really good emphasis too especially noting that this is the aspect of astrology is really a gospel issue it's a gospel issue but also it's important but it's also the byproduct of it is gospel -less but go into that To piggyback off what you're saying,

57:04

Jerry, and what you're saying Marsha, is I believe that they view time as cyclical number one and you were lost in this never -ending rabbit hole of just a circle going downwards there's no consummation of all things, there's no salvation to look forward to, and as a

57:22

Christian I like to think in terms of universals, when there is truth in the meaning of life, what it means to be human, and who is

57:30

God, how do you know him these are universal truths, they are the same here on the planet

57:36

Earth as they would be in the Andromeda galaxy for the person who follows astrology, their meaning is defined by the literal alignments of the stars, the moon, the planets to where they're born in their position looking up at the sky that's relative why is that relative?

57:53

Because you can go somewhere else in the universe at the same time when that person was born, and their constellations are totally different your constellations don't define you guess what as a

58:01

Christian I get to say I get to say that Jesus Christ is who was and is to come, he is the same yesterday today and forever, no matter where I'm at in the universe,

58:12

I'm justified by grace through faith that God himself took on flesh and died on the cross for my sins, no matter where I go and no matter where I go,

58:21

I can have the universal consistency of saying that my God created the heavens, and he sits and he laughs, and does what he pleases right?

58:30

The astrologer doesn't have that consistency it's a total relative view of not only time, but of God and it's not unchanging, but the

58:42

God of the Bible offers something totally different he offers a solid foundation he says,

58:48

I am the Lord God, I do not change, Numbers 23 19, God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man that he should change his mind and guess what, the hope that we offer through the

58:58

Christian worldview that God offers us is that no matter where you go in the universe, he is the same and that he died for you, and his blood covers you of your sins and that you don't have to be lost in a never ending cycle and circle of Samsara, and reincarnation and rebirth,

59:14

I mean, that's not true it's relative to the guru, but Christianity is a universal truth no matter where you are in the universe, so we need to repent and put our faith in Christ and move forward, and put those sins to death we need to put to death that idolatry and set our mind on the heavenly things the heavenly promises of God there you go, that's yeah, that's a good way to sum it up yeah, and yeah like I said, it is a linear it is a linear aspect, because in many ways,

59:43

I think Walter Martin when he would describe New Age and the occultism as a whole, he would just describe it as really a spiritual narcotic where there's just, there's no end in sight never, and there's always it's always the next yoga pose, the next meditation the next chakra alignment the next planetary alignment the next thing, the next thing, the next thing you're getting off on what you can think of next, you're amused with your own thoughts and brains it's philosophy and empty deceit yes, exactly, that's one way to do it okay, well this is

01:00:13

I think this is a really good overview I mean, this is really yeah, this is really good and again,

01:00:20

I think we've covered a lot of ground here, and I'm sure you might want to some of you may need to go back and listen to this again

01:00:27

Marcia we covered a lot here is there any other aspects of any of the material that we discussed, anything you think it's important to bring up, or anything to end on, as we wrap up here yes

01:00:41

I would say that one of the things that astrology is very damaging, or destructive of, is really as to who you are because not only are you looking at yourself artificially, you are categorizing yourself and I think that is one of the most damaging things, because you see yourself a certain way on this zodiac sign, or my chart says, you know, this is my sun and moon are here, and my rising sign is here, and then you're in this category and you filter everything through that category and it's very, very limiting it's not really who you are, and you have limited yourself incredibly and you're just missing out, you're missing out on who you really are so I think that versus the fact that God created man in his own image and made man so that we can know there's a

01:01:49

God and we can get communication from God through His word we have revelation of who

01:01:57

God is through His word and that there's no limitation we're not in a certain category you know, we're just the only category we're in is we're human that's the category and so I think that it's so different, you know, you can see how the new age seems to act like it's all free and open and I used to think there was so much freedom in the new age, you know, and astrology was this wonderful knowledge that I had but, you know, when

01:02:29

I look at it now versus who you are as a human and who you are in Christ when you trust in Christ it's just so different, that all of that from that other world is so limiting and it's also destructive because it's not who you are, so I just I'll end on that, you know, just as a final kind of conclusion comparing being a

01:02:53

Christian versus being a new age astrologer Good Well, in summary,

01:02:59

I think this is, I appreciate you coming on and again, we definitely I feel like we definitely, the

01:03:04

Kraken was released We're sitting back and we're looking at the aftermath of the destruction from the

01:03:09

Kraken and we are glorying in the battle, it was great I think you're digging that, it sounds like you're digging that nickname, so I am,

01:03:18

I am, I like the way you say it We'll have to, we'd love to have you on again sometime, you know, depending on what subject does come up, and that nickname will be there and at the ready for you so we'll probably have to play that clip of Mr.

01:03:31

Liam Neeson playing, whoever that was, was it Clash of the Titans? Yeah, yeah, that was Liam Neeson from Clash of the

01:03:37

Titans It was like, this is when memes, I'll tell a side this is when memes were in its infancy and that's when like the release of the

01:03:43

Kraken like before the movie even came out it was just that scene of like, release the

01:03:48

Kraken, and there was all these different versions of it, so Classic. We have the best version, and that's

01:03:53

Marsha Montenegro. Yes, yes Oh, thank you, I loved being on with you guys, thank you so much, and yeah, if you ever see something

01:04:00

I can come and talk about again, I'd be more than happy to come back. Okay, and also, if anyone wants to find out get any more of Marsha Montenegro's content, you can go to Christian Answers for the

01:04:11

New Age on Facebook, or Christian Answers for the New Age dot org, and there's lots of content, all different sorts of articles, and just definitely good ways to kind of educate yourself about just all the different aspects of New Age, and New Age going on in the world, so if you all enjoyed this episode, please let us know, please comment on our social media, and let us know what you thought, and as always leave us a review on iTunes, and as always programs like this cannot continue without your support so please go to thecultistshow .com

01:04:43

go to the donate tab, you can donate one time more monthly, and we'll talk to you guys next time on Cultish, where we answer into the kingdom of the cults.